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  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1844) | Send Message
     
    yes!
    15 Aug 2013, 06:09 AM Reply Like
  • Fancy Pants
    , contributor
    Comments (36) | Send Message
     
    Bam!
    15 Aug 2013, 06:45 AM Reply Like
  • dlmca
    , contributor
    Comments (390) | Send Message
     
    Have not been keeping up with the APC

     

    Have we arranged questions for the cc today?

     

    I would like an explanation of why the PIPE and what happened to the second tranche that was supposedly available from the 2012 financing

     

    Lastly some tough questions on "the vision thing" and where TG might expect things to play out over the next 3-5 years would be appreciated
    15 Aug 2013, 07:06 AM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    dimca: There is a list posted in the previous concentrator.

     

    There seems to be little hope of any substance coming from the call but, surprise would be good.

     

    If it wasn't for ePower, there would just be more "distant dreams".
    15 Aug 2013, 07:55 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    The earnings release is out and it includes an answer to my curiosity question about the $300,000 in "other income," which apparently arose from tax credit sales.

     

    http://yhoo.it/14fuwW5

     

    While Axion has scrupulously avoided time specific performance targets in the past, I was encouraged that Granville expects to announce "confirmed orders and initial sales" in PowerCube markets "before our next quarterly earnings call in mid November."
    15 Aug 2013, 08:06 AM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    I was hoping that the new fiscal year would show some results from customers. Good to see the implication of that.

     

    --
    "Joint testing with Penn State now includes 'road hybrid locomotive',..."
    Now includes? Was it not officially included before? There had been talk that implied it was.
    15 Aug 2013, 08:22 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    The first priority at NS has always been the yard locomotive with a continuation of the project to build an OTR unit. The testing work for the yard locomotive is done and NS has bought the batteries. Work on the OTR unit is continuing and based in large part on the successful results of work on the yard unit. From Norfolk Southern's perspective, we're talking about a single project with two phases, not two unrelated and independent projects on parallel tracks. Without success on the yard locomotive, NS would not continue on to the OTR unit.
    15 Aug 2013, 08:48 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5521) | Send Message
     
    "There had been talk that implied it was."
    greentongue....TG is notorious for implying things that never happen or are delayed for years. He's been questioned for a couple of years, but recently has pretty much been caught and called out in public here on this APC and dumping of stock by investors. This PIPE deal done him in.
    He knows he has to have sales and news, BMW & NS orders are still a ways off so he will be pushing to get anything he can out there. Finally.
    You probably get news today or November, but will it be big enough to move the needle? or just met with heavier selling of shares into the rally?
    Personally & IMO, don't believe a word he says.
    15 Aug 2013, 09:18 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1834) | Send Message
     
    "Personally & IMO, don't believe a word he says"

     

    I find it sad to get to this point where we can't trust our management...but in the face of all the mounting evidence against TG, the wise thing to do is to dampen expectations A LOT
    15 Aug 2013, 09:32 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    In that case you should sell immediately and never look back.
    15 Aug 2013, 09:35 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    I did find it interesting that TG once again made it clear that the delays in getting 999 out of the shop had nothing to do with the batteries and everything to do with other suppliers for the project.
    15 Aug 2013, 09:55 AM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (1106) | Send Message
     
    Agree with John.

     

    If you love the tech but hate mgmt you should sell. In any company mgmt is the one that executes but especially so in a nano-cap.
    15 Aug 2013, 09:56 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2305) | Send Message
     
    Yes, please sell.

     

    SLURP!

     

    Bottom feeders' delight again today!
    15 Aug 2013, 12:04 PM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (794) | Send Message
     
    Yeah, Doc.

     

    Agreewitcha ! Picked up a few. Jealous of the $.12x price somebody got.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:11 PM Reply Like
  • rhyse12
    , contributor
    Comments (195) | Send Message
     
    If you don't trust management, why would you own their stock?
    Don't mean to be sharp here, but isn't that " foolish".
    I don't trust these guys, but here- take my money....
    15 Aug 2013, 01:34 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2305) | Send Message
     
    VW,

     

    I got that $0.126, for another 15K.

     

    That GTC bid's been waiting for a month for this little dip.
    15 Aug 2013, 03:18 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (990) | Send Message
     
    LT

     

    "Personally & IMO, don't believe a word he says"

     

    I get your bitterness but why continue to stay and post?
    16 Aug 2013, 05:00 PM Reply Like
  • Treehill
    , contributor
    Comments (142) | Send Message
     
    I was a bit surprised to see net income, as opposed to a net loss. Has the company ever had net income before? And the reduction in net cash burn is positive as well. Perhaps the money from the PIPEs will last longer than expected. Overall the numbers looked better than I expected.
    15 Aug 2013, 08:21 AM Reply Like
  • jcrjg
    , contributor
    Comments (174) | Send Message
     
    "The increase in non - operating income relates primarily to the accounting for the issuance on May 8, 2013 of private placement senior notes and warrants and had an almost entirely non cash impact on our operating results and cash flow for the first half of 2013. "
    15 Aug 2013, 08:55 AM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (1165) | Send Message
     
    I wonder what sort of non-cash benefit they received from the PIPE that had to be credited as $1.7M in income? Are they learning some accounting tricks from Tesla?
    15 Aug 2013, 09:32 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4221) | Send Message
     
    Th ... Axion reported a noticeable amount of "other income" in Q2 which boosted revenues from non-traditional sources. The Q2 earnings PR and cc commentary attributed some of that revenue to sales of tax losses (an asset not previously utilized). Reference to increased usage of the PowerCube's interconnection with the PJM regional grid.

     

    I also found it interesting that Axion's description of its operating revenues in the quarterly 10Q included production and sales of AGM batteries as well as flooded lead acid.
    17 Aug 2013, 12:13 AM Reply Like
  • jcrjg
    , contributor
    Comments (174) | Send Message
     
    What does, "Small initial batch orders from industry leaders in motive applications would be one example" mean?
    15 Aug 2013, 08:53 AM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (1165) | Send Message
     
    jcrg- I take that to mean something like a half a dozen batteries for testing.
    15 Aug 2013, 09:33 AM Reply Like
  • jcrjg
    , contributor
    Comments (174) | Send Message
     
    nogoodslacker,

     

    Do you think this is for auto makers? Could it be to the "alternate manufacturer" for "manufacturing feasibility" testing?
    15 Aug 2013, 09:49 AM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (1165) | Send Message
     
    jcrg, I think they just said "motive applications," which could be a lot of things, cars, trucks, APUs, heavy equipment...yada yada.

     

    I would imagine that anyone currently testing a battery-supercapacitor hybrid concept should also be trying to get a few Axion batteries to compare.
    15 Aug 2013, 10:00 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    All well and good for 2015 or 2016's stk price. In the meantime, the usual prospective customers, BMW, NS, PC and ePower are the drivers, in that order, IMO.

     

    Any color on timing that Granville can add during the CC might be very useful to investors, for their buy or hold decision. Good to see him give some of that already for the PC.
    15 Aug 2013, 10:37 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    08/14/2013: EOD stuff partially copied from instablog (up already).
    # Trds: 113, MinTrSz: 100, MaxTrSz: 70000, Vol 712343, AvTrSz: 6304
    Min. Pr: 0.1329, Max Pr: 0.1450, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.1404
    # Buys, Shares: 17 158023, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.1410
    # Sells, Shares: 96 554320, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.1403
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 1:3.51 (22.2% “buys”), DlyShts 32525 (04.57%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 5.87%

     

    Yesterday: “I suspected we'll have a few days now without excessive daily short sale lows, although continued swings in a generally higher trend for the lows should be seen”. Whoa there Nellie!

     

    Today's percentage entered “excessive ... lows” and I now see a definite pattern of lower highs and lows. I hope this does not continue as it has always accompanied long down trends in price. My best guess is the recent dominance by the usual suspects is related to this because I believe they may have some short-term long positions they play, are handling shares from their owning broker customers (meaning they are under the market-maker control), and/or have more intra-broker trades. This last seems quite likely as the market-maker(s) spend a lot of time near the top of both sides of the bid/ask queues and we've had a relatively high percentage of trades hitting the bids, bypassing the ask queue.

     

    There was a 10K AH trade FINRA-reported daily short sales don't include. Adding that to the FINRA trade volume raises it from 702,343 to my total and would lower the short percentage from 5.97% to my 04.57%. If the shares are also added to the short sales, the short volume moves from 35,525 to 42,525 and the short percentage would be 05.97%.

     

    I'm still hoping, as mentioned previously, that “they” will be satisfied with a $0.14 VWAP, which gives a next issue price of $0.119. Today's drop from yesterday's $0.1451 to $0.1404 is concerning but may have been just normal pre-reporting jitters by retail investors. The pattern of trading today suggests this unless the “financiers” have changed their strategy. See the trading action breakdown below (omitted from the concentrator) and note the buying strength early and the weakness that appeared around 14:00. The late-day weakness is not a change, but the strength of the early trading, vis-a-vis “buy” percentages is unusual.

     

    Week end & this week's daily estimated values (older dailys in prior EOD posts) for next share issue:
    06/14: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.2315, x 85%: $0.1968 Wk cls VWAP $0.2122
    06/21: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.2176, x 85%: $0.1850 Wk cls VWAP $0.1751
    06/28: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1956, x 85%: $0.1663 Wk cls VWAP $0.1474
    07/05: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1805, x 85%: $0.1534 Wk cls VWAP $0.1518
    07/12: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1657, x 85%: $0.1408 Wk cls VWAP $0.1403
    07/19: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1539, x 85%: $0.1309 Wk cls VWAP $0.1543
    07/26: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1524, x 85%: $0.1295 Wk cls VWAP $0.1555
    08/02: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1524, x 85%: $0.1295 Wk cls VWAP $0.1733
    08/05: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1524, x 85%: $0.1295 Wk cls VWAP $0.1410
    08/12: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1483, x 85%: $0.1260
    08/13: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1477, x 85%: $0.1255
    08/14: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1469, x 85%: $0.1249

     

    Vol, in K, for above weeks: 4,356, 1,934, 3910, 1,217, 2902, 5041, 2731, 3889.
    Vol, in K, for above days: 600.32, 776.23, 712.34.

     

    ARCA was present from the open. We gave back all our gains from yesterday. Until the late-day weakness appeared, it was looking like we might hold flat or finish down a small amount on the VWAP, as I commented here http://seekingalpha.co....

     

    But the habitual pattern did not disappoint, as can be seen in this trading breakdown by time segments. Note that the last segment's “buys” and VWAP was heavily skewed by one 70K trade at $0.1390, 22% of the segment's volume. Also note the very low volume for the first two hours. The bid stayed fixed and didn't move at all and ARCA stuck their ask at $0.1408 and stayed their until around 13:25 when I saw it at $0.1435. Then the dam burst.

     

    The following breakdown by time is omitted from the concentrator.

     

    Here's a breakdown by price range, which was slightly narrower than yesterday. Note the $0.1400-$0.1424 percentage of volume and “buys”.

     

    The following breakdown is omitted from the concentrator.

     

    On my original inflection point calculations, readings for 5, 10, 25, 50, 100 and 200 day periods:
    1-day change: -19.7% -24.1% -12.3% -6.0% -5.7% -3.5%
    5-day change: 73.8% -8.7% -45.3% 6.1% -110.7% -5.7%
    5-day rate of change change: 21.9% 40.1% 113.2% 2263.4% -91.8% 221.3%

     

    On my newer inflection point calculations, for those same periods:
    1-day change: -25.6% -29.3% -25.1% -13.7% -14.3% -16.8%
    5-day change: 48.0% 54.8% 40.1% 73.4% 29.8% 44.0%
    5-day rate of change change: 33.9% 136.9% 81.0% 76.9% 59.8% 70.3%

     

    On my original and new inflection point calculations, you can see both have one-day movements decidedly negative, reflecting the volatility I discussed in the comment linked above . The original 5-day change shows a mixed picture but its rate of change over 5 days is still on the positive side. With the 10Q release this evening, I wouldn't put any faith in these numbers because we don't know what sort of sentiment will emerge from the conference call.

     

    The newer version of my experimental calculations are in agreement for the one-day changes. The five-day change and the rate of change are a bit more positive though. The same concerns about the sentiment from the 10Q and the conference call apply.

     

    The developing trend in the newer inflection points I've been noting continued and we still might see some price appreciation develop. Today broke the trend on the one-day change, but with the 5-day change and the rate of change still looking more positive, I can't say the developing trend is broken yet. Even after today's weakening, the 100 and 200-day remain above trend lines and the 50-day is barely below its trend. Yesterday I said “... it can be seen the 50-day is right at the line and, I expect, will be back above it tomorrow, barring a lousy day”. Today was a lousy day.

     

    On the newer charts the emerging pattern that would suggest a move up is coming is at risk though. It's not off the table yet as a one-day change doesn't break the trend. The following days will tell the story here.

     

    Details of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” and inflection points omitted here.

     

    HardToLove
    15 Aug 2013, 09:02 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    Buenos días!!

     

    Let me share that I really enjoy the Second Quarter Report. After reading the report, I have the feeling that we are next to great things.

     

    Saludos-Carlos
    15 Aug 2013, 09:07 AM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (1165) | Send Message
     
    I am happy to hear TG stick his neck out on the Powercube sales prediction for this quarter. Does anyone know how much a standard powercube sells for, or how many batteries are in one? One or two million $$ worth of PC sales would come as a huge relief for me. Four of five million would be even better.
    15 Aug 2013, 10:03 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    So far, the big stk mkt selling that started late yesterday is continuing. Not sure if related to the Results and Discussion that the Company just released or not. All 4 Horsemen of the Axpocollapse have been active on the ask, as well as at least one other (STXG).

     

    Sure looks like a retest of the 12.5 cent all-time low is coming soon. Question is---how low do we go?

     

    Maybe Granville will say some things to cheer up the crowd enough for them to open their wallets enough to offset the NBUs' and retail dumping. We'll start finding out in 45 minutes.

     

    Update: A whopping 574,000 shares have traded so far, and the price has been as low as 12.6, a smidge lower than the current bid of 12.61.
    15 Aug 2013, 10:14 AM Reply Like
  • anthlj
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    Make that in about an hour. They never start on time. organizational powers of a gnat.
    15 Aug 2013, 11:10 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    If Granville keeps droning on and on with the boilerplate, the call will be over with little to no Q&A, lol.
    15 Aug 2013, 11:30 AM Reply Like
  • jcrjg
    , contributor
    Comments (174) | Send Message
     
    It must be tiring to talk that slowly.
    15 Aug 2013, 11:34 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    MrI: STXG started moving around more last week IIRC. Never pushed hard on the top of the queue, but were definitely showing interest.

     

    HardToLove
    15 Aug 2013, 12:51 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    I may have to scrape up some more at these prices.
    15 Aug 2013, 01:32 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    htl, well I'll be...MAXM is now on the best bid at 13. Not sure it means anything at all, but interesting, anyway. Lots of shares going there and on the ask at 13.2, too.

     

    Then they moved up at tad to 13.1 then 13.2, then 150k traded at 13.49. Maybe, just maybe, they got a, say, 250k buy order. That would be slick. Of course, maybe it was closing out a short position, Dr Evil would suggest.
    15 Aug 2013, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    I couldn't catch it MrI - busy banging trades in on the KB.

     

    Right now, though MAXM is $0.10x5K

     

    HardToLove
    15 Aug 2013, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (232) | Send Message
     
    I can't connect to axionpower.com, anyone else having this problem?
    Tried chrome, aol, IE.
    15 Aug 2013, 10:19 AM Reply Like
  • Fritz1969
    , contributor
    Comments (42) | Send Message
     
    It works.
    I can connect to http://bit.ly/nG6x1f
    15 Aug 2013, 10:33 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1841) | Send Message
     
    Yes. I cannot find it on the website which states there is nothing on the calendar. I got to it by calling the 877 number.

     

    What is the magic place on the website that allows you to hear the call?
    15 Aug 2013, 11:33 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2435) | Send Message
     
    direct link to conf: http://bit.ly/16RWI5A
    15 Aug 2013, 11:38 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1841) | Send Message
     
    Thanks. Hell of a thing that I couldn't simply find it on the site.
    15 Aug 2013, 11:47 AM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (232) | Send Message
     
    >thotdoc,

     

    For future reference don't use the drop down menu at the investors tab, just click on the investors tab and the link for CC will be at the top.

     

    My problem was just not getting to AXION's web site due to server errors.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (990) | Send Message
     
    thotdoc

     

    agreed...but if you sign up for AXPW stock info releases ...AXPW emails the link...
    15 Aug 2013, 10:23 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2435) | Send Message
     
    My one question answered ... no they can't start this one on time either.
    15 Aug 2013, 11:02 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13589) | Send Message
     
    If the day ever arrives when they are NOT dodging missiles from the shareholders, and have actual good news to report, the CC just MIGHT start on time.
    15 Aug 2013, 11:04 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    I'm giving them a couple of more minutes...then I'm hanging up. This is getting really unprofessional.

     

    Away we go...
    15 Aug 2013, 11:09 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1834) | Send Message
     
    OK its starting...10 min late!!!
    15 Aug 2013, 11:11 AM Reply Like
  • dlmca
    , contributor
    Comments (390) | Send Message
     
    Granville continued, "New orders for our PbC batteries came from several sources in the second quarter and subsequent to the end of the second quarter... The Class 8-A, 8-B, and even the Class 7 trucks, present a huge potential market opportunity for Axion and our unique proprietary PbC product. For a hybrid conversion system, like ePower's, to work efficiently and substantially increase 'miles per gallon of diesel fuel', a robust battery with the right product attributes is needed... We believe our PbC battery is the perfect fit for these requirements. In the US alone, on an annual basis, there are statistics that report that Class 8-A and 8-B trucks consume 19 billion gallons of diesel fuel. The opportunity to save literally hundreds of millions of gallons of this diesel fuel is what drives the hybrid conversion market initiative. Each year in the US, it is estimated that approximately 120,000 Class 8 trucks are rebuilt. Since the engines, drive trains, motors and motor generators are changed out during this rebuild anyway, it is an ideal time to incorporate a series hybrid conversion – a conversion that provides us with a potential sale of 56 of our PbC batteries per converted truck."

     

    120,000 *56 = 6,720,000 batteries @ $400 =$2,688,000,000/year. That is $2 B.

     

    Say 20% penetration = $537,600,000 gross sales

     

    Gross profit @30% = $161,280,000 GP.

     

    That is not chump change. That is a company maker
    15 Aug 2013, 11:14 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1834) | Send Message
     
    dlmca,

     

    This is assuming ePower retrofits the WHOLE US fleet of Heavy trucks, which is not going to happen. 10% of that would already be a massive success for us...:)
    15 Aug 2013, 11:18 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4221) | Send Message
     
    Amou .. If ePower is successful with its Class 8 truck rebuild, the market for PbCs will quickly expand to include smaller trucks, buses, etc. and 10% penetration in class 8 rebuilds could be a niche.
    15 Aug 2013, 11:40 AM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (1165) | Send Message
     
    More like 2%, but that would still be a lot of batteries.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:04 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    When each 1% of the rebuild market represents $20 million a year in PbC sales I'll take whatever I can get. Annual revenue numbers for each 1% of the OEM market are roughly equivalent.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    I think after the PIPE financing, and the bottoming of the stock, TG and the board have realized they need to concentrate only on things that will bring in sales. They've got a year's worth of money. If they can't get the stock price up in the next year, they understand the squeeze that is going to put them in to get any further funding. IMHO
    15 Aug 2013, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    LabTech, that awareness is better late than never.

     

    If some new opportunity arises, and it needs significant resources like money and mgmt time, and time to first revenue is, say, 3-5 years out, then I say table it. Maybe get back to it someday when you have a lot more resources and you're not in a race for mere survival like they are now. A freeze on new lengthly projects, with only rare exceptions. Companies do it all the time with hiring.

     

    I'm really liking this refocusing of mgmt's.
    15 Aug 2013, 05:29 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    MrI: Might just be part of the learning curve I mentioned a while back as they transition from a negotiator mentality to a sales and commercial enterprise mentality. Still has to work a bit on courtesy to shareholders re. starting on time so that all the questions we may have get an opportunity to be addressed.

     

    I got so disgusted I hung up after dialing in intending to ask a couple of the questions. I knew it would happen so I already had the webcast running.

     

    To *me*, my time and energy are valuable too. Maybe I'm too picky since I'm essentially "Mr Punctuality", but this reminds me of my wife who apparently has a unique clock.

     

    HardToLove
    15 Aug 2013, 05:47 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    htl, I hear you, but since we're stuck with TG, I just lower my expectations for certain things that he does. Keeps me both sane and real.

     

    If he's really improving as a CEO overall, he unload the investor stuff (probably how he looks at it) to a very investor-friendly CFO.
    15 Aug 2013, 06:39 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2435) | Send Message
     
    Filibuster?
    15 Aug 2013, 11:28 AM Reply Like
  • anthlj
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    Filibusted.
    Will anyone be awake to ask questions.
    15 Aug 2013, 11:33 AM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (2019) | Send Message
     
    NS999 to roll out this quarter?
    15 Aug 2013, 11:33 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    Ranma,
    It seems to be the plan to have the NS999 out this quarter, assuming the other suppliers for the project finally get their act together.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:05 PM Reply Like
  • anthlj
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    It is evident they know about as much as we do re NS intentions.
    15 Aug 2013, 11:42 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1834) | Send Message
     
    OK GREAT, BMW is out by a year or so...
    15 Aug 2013, 11:46 AM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2814) | Send Message
     
    Did we find out who was on the battery grant we did not get?
    If we did I must have missed it.
    15 Aug 2013, 11:51 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    Froggey77,
    No, we didn't. And since it didn't get funded we probably aren't going to find out. Though, the way TG talked out it, they are doing the project with or without the funding. Kind of makes you wonder if the "named" OEM is just there for window dressing. Considering that the original DOE grant was with GM, and there has never been any indication they are still working directly with GM on this project, you have to wonder if there was just an agreement with the GM (or whoever) to allow their name to be used but that they weren't really involved in the project much either way.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    When Stefan asked about the GM project Tom said the work was successfully completed according to plan. There is no indication of window dressing and there comes a point where skepticism gives birth to paranoia, which is as unhealthy as unbridled optimism.

     

    Stefan is trying to get a copy of the Phase II grant application under the FOIA, although he seems to be having some problems since he can only identify one of the applicants.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:46 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    Interesting that you should mention the Phase II application.

     

    The appeal board went to the Office of Science and requested that they perform a new search for documents responsive to my request and one document was found. As a result, my appeal was denied as moot and I should be getting a new determination letter from the OS anytime now.
    15 Aug 2013, 01:22 PM Reply Like
  • alpha5one
    , contributor
    Comments (146) | Send Message
     
    Yo Stefan, Thank you very much for your work. If you run into too much static, you can always go down to your congressperson's office in your area with a letter and supporting documentation (or send them a fax) and ask their help in getting to the bottom of it. That should break the log jam with no problem and unexpected alacrity on the part of the government agency you are dealing with

     

    .
    15 Aug 2013, 01:30 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    John,
    "When Stefan asked about the GM project Tom said the work was successfully completed according to plan. There is no indication of window dressing and there comes a point where skepticism gives birth to paranoia, which is as unhealthy as unbridled optimism."

     

    I don't know that I'm being skeptical about this. Yes, the original DOE project was with GM. The grant didn't get funded but Axion went forward with the project, as they planned to do so with or without the funding, and completed the original project. There has never been any indication that GM has taken this project forward and as far as I can tell, Axion has born the cost of the whole thing.
    We've all assumed that the SIBR grant was also with GM, but again, I have seen no indication that GM has used the information to move forward with Axion.
    In the science world, when an investigator is named on a project, but has little or not direct involvement in it, other than putting their name on the grant to prove that they are in favor of it, we call that window dressing. I'm not saying the work wasn't important, and won't have long lasting benefits for Axion going forward, I just question the involvement of the unnamed auto OEM in the whole process, since there is nothing to show that the OEM has helped to move the project forward other than attaching their name to it. IMHO
    15 Aug 2013, 01:57 PM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (1165) | Send Message
     
    LT, This quote from the news release could explain why you are not hearing anything about GM: >>Some of these orders we have spoken about, such as ePower's $200,000 plus purchase order, and some we have not, and still cannot make public at this time. <<
    15 Aug 2013, 02:40 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    Projects like these don't typically give rise to immense direct costs. The contributions are mostly manpower with modest physical material and each side contributes according to their expertise. Axion would have assigned a team of engineers to work on the project and GM would have done the same. GM also built a LaCrosse that used the PbC instead of its standard battery. If the grant had been awarded, Axion's losses for the last two years would have been a little lower.

     

    I agree that we've seen no indication that GM is moving forward with the project. We've also seen no indication that GM is not moving forward. Like most things Axion, the real work is going on behind the black canvas.

     

    I have assumed that the SBIR partner was not GM because there were too many references that described a tier one systems developer like a Bosch or a Valeo. In any event we should have word from Stefan on the mystery when he gets his FOIA response.
    15 Aug 2013, 03:33 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1834) | Send Message
     
    Wow!! TG giving a definite time horizon on PbC sales. This is unprecedented...:)
    15 Aug 2013, 11:57 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    Amouna: That was the single most significant thing in the whole CC IMO. He prefaced it with we know he doesn't normally give out timeframes ...

     

    This tells me that he has some high-confidence items in the pipelines.

     

    HardToLove
    15 Aug 2013, 12:56 PM Reply Like
  • 12100606
    , contributor
    Comments (86) | Send Message
     
    And that's why he thought the PIPE was ok.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    Well, if he sees only one side of the picture, yep. If he considers the the shareholders' effects, still very short-sighted.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    16 Aug 2013, 05:05 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1841) | Send Message
     
    "Significan orders on our next call:.

     

    As they said in my old neighborhood: "OK, sukka. Put up or shut up!
    15 Aug 2013, 11:57 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1834) | Send Message
     
    Hopefully orders in the millions, not the hundreds of thousands. That would be a start...

     

    As per BMW and other automotive OEM stop start, it is on the back burner for the short/intermediate term (1-2 years I would say...)
    15 Aug 2013, 12:01 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (990) | Send Message
     
    thatdoc

     

    "Put up..."...agreed.
    I still maintain a positive slant, but I hope TG doesn't get his foot stuck in his mouth!
    15 Aug 2013, 10:28 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    Mag: "foot stuck ..."

     

    You mean there's more room in there? He has more than two feet?

     

    HardToLove
    16 Aug 2013, 05:07 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13589) | Send Message
     
    HTL: Centipedal CEO.
    16 Aug 2013, 06:59 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (990) | Send Message
     
    Whoa HTL!

     

    Et Tu, Brute?

     

    Disappointment understandable!

     

    Point taken!
    16 Aug 2013, 05:19 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    So Granville is promising significant sales by the next CC, but those sales won't be from BMW, since significant BMW sales won't be happening in the next year.
    From the discussion it does seem that they have started shipping their electrodes to BMW's second source battery manufacturer, to show that PbC batteries can be made by another supplier, and those tests have been successful.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:02 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1841) | Send Message
     
    What did he say that leads to that. I missed t. Thanks,

     

    G
    15 Aug 2013, 01:09 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    thotdoc,

     

    "What did he say that leads to that. I missed t. Thanks"

     

    Which part, BMW or second source battery maker using Axion's electrodes?
    15 Aug 2013, 02:01 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1841) | Send Message
     
    The secondary source battery maker.

     

    Thanks,

     

    G
    15 Aug 2013, 04:26 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    thotdoc,

     

    "Good morning. Had a question, just wondered if you could update us what was going on with your work with BMW. I saw where they were sort of coming out with a new hybrid and I was hoping to see something about Axion Power in that, I didn’t, just maybe an update would be useful.

     

    Thomas Granville - Chairman, Chief Executive Officer

     

    Sure. Yes, they are developing a number of different initiatives in a number of different markets. We continue our work with them; we continue our work with another supplier. I think I may have mentioned in the quarterly reports that we proven of that, a product can be manufactured offsite by a third-party supplier. So we are continuing that testing and application."
    15 Aug 2013, 04:42 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4825) | Send Message
     
    >LabTech ... Too bad there was no follow-up question that queried just what was being done with those completed batteries manufactured on the third-party line. I assume they would be tested for baseline comparison to New Castle's but ... how many were involved in that Proof run.

     

    Was there enough manufacturing completed to give BMW product for fleet testing? I know it is a question I'll never hear answered but I do wonder if BMW is ever going to move on to this stage in their 5+ years of testing. Just my suspicious nature welling up about whether there is actually an implementation at the end of this road.
    16 Aug 2013, 05:34 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    DRich,
    I guess I looked at it from the perspective that it was a step in the negotiation process with the battery manufacturer where they said, "OK, before we spend a lot of time writing up documents saying how many batteries we are going to make, and where we are going to get supplies from, and whether we are going to demand a new electrode line be built next door to our plant, why don't we do a simple, one time run through with a shipment of electrodes to see if we have proof of concept, in that Axion's claim that the PbC battery can be made on any AGM line is actually true."
    I don't know if that's what really happened, but if I'm right, at least we have proof of concept and a reason for the negotiations to continue. IMHO.
    16 Aug 2013, 09:42 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10182) | Send Message
     
    LabTech, I agree with your position.

     

    Any potential partner is going to want to understand the technology and market potential inside out before making commitments, including significant internal resources to pull everything together, to support a business case. I could envision everything with the exception of the sheeting process being fully available to a potential partner to begin the process of determining if they wish to partner on the program. The not so significant task of verifying that Axion's claims that the negative electrode could be integrated into existing facilities with minimal effort thus validating Axion did their homework would seem to be an obvious early stage step in the assessment process.

     

    Seems TG was just giving a clue that the team at Axion did their homework and parts in hand with some level of testing is supporting this.
    16 Aug 2013, 11:17 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    Well, I tried my best to ask some tough questions on automotive, although I didn't want to put him on the spot with GM. At a minimum, I was happy that TG engaged me for as long as he did.

     

    I also appreciate the candor on the timeline for automotive.

     

    I had three more questions (among others that I didn't think had a chance of getting answered):

     

    (1) Does Axion intend to produce a white paper outlining the attributes of the PowerCube similar to the one produced for S/S? It would appear to be a great promotional tool to send out.

     

    (2) Are there other train companies testing Axion batteries? How many?

     

    (3) Can you provide any color on the commentary in the investor presentation on cranes?

     

    The queue seemed relatively short.

     

    Edit: I sent him a three page letter outlining my thoughts and concerns, so he knew all of my questions that were coming.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:02 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1834) | Send Message
     
    Great intervention Stefan. I highly appreciated it, and I am sure I was not the only one! :)
    15 Aug 2013, 12:09 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    Stefan,
    Thanks to you and everyone who asked questions today.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:09 PM Reply Like
  • Renzo
    , contributor
    Comments (353) | Send Message
     
    Well, that was interesting (paraphrasing)--"Oh, BTW I've never predicted timing of sales before but we'll have significant sales to report on the next CC...Bye."

     

    I think I'm encouraged.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:02 PM Reply Like
  • CoryM
    , contributor
    Comments (80) | Send Message
     
    I was encouraged as well and added. Knocked my average price down by 3 pennies.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:12 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (2019) | Send Message
     
    What is significant sales, and where from? I'm guessing either trucks or PowerCube. If I were bold, then a fleet test from NSC.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    The press release spoke of significant sales of PowerCube class stationary storage products before the next CC, or at least that's the way I interpreted the language.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:20 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Agreed. I also found it interesting that TG lumped start-stop in trucks into the same group as hybrid truck and stationary as items that would produce sales in a scheduled future, as opposed to BMW, which would happen when it happens in the future.
    15 Aug 2013, 01:00 PM Reply Like
  • Renzo
    , contributor
    Comments (353) | Send Message
     
    It was intriguing that this morning's press release spoke of "off grid lighting tied to renewables" as one of the opportunities that may be associated with near-term sales.

     

    I didn't recall seeing that term used before and a Google search doesn't hit on anything related to Axion other than the press release itself. Off-grid lighting tied to renewables seems to be big in the developing world (Africa and India come up most prominently) but not in the US, I suppose unsurprisingly.

     

    I wonder if this is one of the island nation applications that has been rumored?
    15 Aug 2013, 03:33 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    Stop-start in trucks that burn through batteries in a year or two (more frequently for FedEx type delivery trucks) requires a lot less validation than stop-start in automotive where problems with a $400 component can make the owner of a $40,000 vehicle very angry. In trucking, the driver just yells at the maintenance guy and says "hey Joe, you need to fix a battery problem in this unit."
    15 Aug 2013, 03:37 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    Renzo: It would make since to be an island - dependency on wind and solar would give lots of cycling opportunities for both regulation and short-term storage. That's the PbC forte'.

     

    HardToLove
    15 Aug 2013, 03:41 PM Reply Like
  • AWOL ENGINEER
    , contributor
    Comments (72) | Send Message
     
    Maybe he was throwing out a bone. "Buy" not bye.

     

    One can only hope.
    15 Aug 2013, 06:23 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10182) | Send Message
     
    AWOL ENGINEER, One of my favorite expressions. Buy some , It's a "good bye". Of course the exchange for maximum humor really can't be presented well in print.

     

    I've bought more than my fair share of those in my life!
    15 Aug 2013, 07:13 PM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (321) | Send Message
     
    Same old story from here,

     

    I trust TG.
    Don't care about the meeting starting late.
    I liked his presentation, did sense some strain in his voice, would be more worried if I didn't. His slow and deliberate manner is fine with me.

     

    Bought my last (for now) tranch of 17.7K shares before the meeting started @.126, well below my .14 target.

     

    Spec money always, like the story, long to good or bad.

     

    geopark
    15 Aug 2013, 12:06 PM Reply Like
  • dlmca
    , contributor
    Comments (390) | Send Message
     
    Stefan

     

    Thanks too

     

    When you have the balance of your questions answered by TG - please share.

     

    All worthy and TG should attend to them

     

    Kind of felt TG or an agent) has been watching the APC for guidance on what he should discuss
    15 Aug 2013, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2814) | Send Message
     
    Dimca
    They are aware of us. That said I can't believe they were 10 min late again. (not that I can complain too much as I was 25 min late.)
    But if they are paying attention that should not have happened.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    Back in the day we used to keep track of the number of callers and weigh that number against expectations because the reality is that many investors like to arrive fashionably late and are offended that management didn't wait for them. Deciding when to start is always a balancing act if you want to make sure you have the largest possible audience.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:49 PM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (321) | Send Message
     
    I had trouble with the conference service, called @8:00, call dropped by them, called back, on hold for ~3min, hung up and called again, third on hold ~1min. My bad for not calling early of course.
    15 Aug 2013, 01:10 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    Geopark: Might be a replay of the webcast available on the web site later today or tomorrow?

     

    Yes! Just tested it! Go to the web site, click investor tab and then click the webcast symbol.

     

    HardToLove
    15 Aug 2013, 02:32 PM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (321) | Send Message
     
    Thanks HTL. I did get to listen to the whole call, thanks to the late start . . and frankly, as others have said, I'm quite encouraged.

     

    geopark
    15 Aug 2013, 03:12 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    Something I like is the downloadable .mp3 - posterity and all that.

     

    HardToLove
    15 Aug 2013, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (321) | Send Message
     
    Cool HTL, thank you.
    15 Aug 2013, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2814) | Send Message
     
    A paper on their distribution system and EVs

     

    Charged Up: Southern California Edison’s Key Learnings about Electric Vehicles, Our Customers and Grid Reliability
    15 Aug 2013, 12:20 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2814) | Send Message
     
    I forgot the link

     

    http://bit.ly/17teL0e
    15 Aug 2013, 07:13 PM Reply Like
  • anthlj
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    TG spoke about seeing light at the end of the tunnel for some opportunities, Cube, ePower, but not auto OEM.

     

    Yet the fact that they have apparently supplied electrodes to others who have successfully assembled functional batteries is significant, and they have at the least biweekly calls with BMW, but yet they are sufficiently jaded to drop auto sales from their planning to a year plus out.

     

    But I suppose auto OEM is not like walking through a tunnel when you see the light well in advance of reaching the end, it is more akin to digging a tunnel, in that you just keep digging with no real clue of when you will breakthrough, until you do break through, maybe years later.

     

    What a business.
    15 Aug 2013, 12:40 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10182) | Send Message
     
    Like most, I'm sure, hearing the statement about "significant sales" before the next quarterly report was the best thing to come out of the cc. For "fair and balanced" I was hoping we'd hear a little more guidance concerning the potential partnership(s). Since I wasn't expecting auto sales before 2016 my and our behinds are in the fire, the status of the potential partnership is what counts in automotive. Oh well, we at least got a clue that they built PbC's in their factory and they are being tested. Did I hear that right?
    15 Aug 2013, 12:48 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    iinde, yep, TG only discussed the company's internal planning perspective regarding auto s/s, which is sales-based. To shareholders and thus the stk price, an announcement of an agreement is at least as important, because hopefully, it comes much sooner. No announcement at all for, say, a year+ hardly helps at all---too much uncertainty thus too difficult to quantify its value.

     

    So we are still in the dark as to when a significant 1st announcement might occur. Would be nice if that gets asked and addressed during the shareholders' mtg day.

     

    Until then, the company is telling us to shift attention to PC sales and orders announcements within three months. At least we have something to chew on...
    15 Aug 2013, 01:57 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    So, the "Second Source" is through assembly and into testing?
    If true, that has to be very good for the future.
    15 Aug 2013, 01:42 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10182) | Send Message
     
    Greentongue, IMO it would be for everything. Raw materials, sheeting, "biocarbon" electrode assembly and the balance. They might allow Axion to keep control of portions of the process but there would need to be a second location that is suitable for the second source location. They might also expect some contractual agreements in conjunction with Axion controlling certain steps of the process to give the partner access if Axion fails to meet agreed to terms in the contract to support cost-quality-delivery per agreed to supply agreements with BMW.
    15 Aug 2013, 01:58 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    IINDelco,
    "Oh well, we at least got a clue that they built PbC's in their factory and they are being tested. Did I hear that right? '

     

    Yes, you heard that right.
    15 Aug 2013, 02:04 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10182) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the confirmation LabTech. I was hoping not to go back and listen to the cc again for this particular point.

     

    Hope we see a transcript. Although I will admit they are generally far more helpful when you have a bunch of Q&A which is not the case with Axion anymore.
    15 Aug 2013, 02:16 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (1134) | Send Message
     
    I didn't catch the cc today, but was wondering if there might have been any institutional investors there. --- I'm pretty amazed how many shares have traded today, with the pps holding its own. Who's buying all these shares?
    15 Aug 2013, 03:01 PM Reply Like
  • 12100606
    , contributor
    Comments (86) | Send Message
     
    Me
    15 Aug 2013, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (2019) | Send Message
     
    No Berkowitz this time, which is funny, because this is the one time he would have gotten timing info out of TG.
    15 Aug 2013, 03:06 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    I took a flyer on some.
    15 Aug 2013, 03:08 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13589) | Send Message
     
    Me too, Mr. I. Me too.
    16 Aug 2013, 07:03 AM Reply Like
  • Poul Brandt
    , contributor
    Comments (278) | Send Message
     
    Just placed an order for 100K limit 0,13
    15 Aug 2013, 03:11 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10182) | Send Message
     
    Poul, What are you doing? Grand plan to bail out Greece? ;-D
    15 Aug 2013, 03:31 PM Reply Like
  • Poul Brandt
    , contributor
    Comments (278) | Send Message
     
    Well. An vise man in Thailand told me earlier this week that I would get rich in 3 months.

     

    So when TG promised sales in 3 months, I thought this is it and decided to act. :-) 

     

    Should mention that the same vise man during the last month twice predicted what number my girlfriend should play in the Thailand lottery, and she won both times. Not a lot, but enough to pay for a new toilet building extension for her mothers house in Thailand.
    15 Aug 2013, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10182) | Send Message
     
    Poul, Got a few body parts crossed for you with the theme "Third times a charm".

     

    Of course I have no problem riding your shirt tails on this one! :-) 
    15 Aug 2013, 03:58 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Poul,
    Ditto here, and just filled. Dilution will not again be the cause of the Neanderthal's extinction.
    22 Aug 2013, 02:51 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10182) | Send Message
     
    Metro, The Neanderthal is extinct?

     

    I guess I need to go look more for physical signs myself. Based on what I see in the media I just assumed they were all over the place and hadn't advanced.
    22 Aug 2013, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1740) | Send Message
     
    When is the annual shareholder meeting again? thanks
    15 Aug 2013, 03:22 PM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1740) | Send Message
     
    Does anyone know the exact date of the annual shareholder's meeting? Nobody answered my last post and I couldn't find it on their website.
    15 Aug 2013, 05:09 PM Reply Like
  • 12100606
    , contributor
    Comments (86) | Send Message
     
    Sept. 26
    15 Aug 2013, 05:11 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    OR,

     

    "The Axion Power International, Inc. Annual Meeting of Stockholders (the “Annual Meeting”) will be held on September 26, 2013, at New Castle Country Club, 511 Country Club Drive, New Castle, PA 16105 at 10:00 AM."

     

    From the Definitive (aka, final) Proxy Stmt:

     

    http://1.usa.gov/1dbgM5U
    15 Aug 2013, 05:18 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10182) | Send Message
     
    The date for the annual meeting was also shared in the cc this am. It's in the transcript John shared below. TG urged those that have never attended to make it if you can.
    15 Aug 2013, 05:50 PM Reply Like
  • AWOL ENGINEER
    , contributor
    Comments (72) | Send Message
     
    Since he is urging I might just have to. But I have never been before do I need to sign up for anything or just show up in my bouncin shoes??
    16 Aug 2013, 08:18 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    If you want to vote in person, you'll need to ask your broker for a proxy that gives you the authority to vote any shares you hold in street name. From a legal perspective, the only "stockholders" Axion has are holders who own shares in paper form. While the thousands of people who hold shares in brokerage accounts are legally classified as "beneficial owners," the record owner of all those shares is CEDE & Co., the street name for The Depository Trust. So a beneficial owner who wants to vote in person needs to have a proxy from his broker.

     

    If you don't care about filling in a ballot at the meeting, you can vote your shares using the forms you'll soon be getting in the mail and simply go to the meeting for the presentations and socializing opportunities.
    16 Aug 2013, 08:32 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    The Conference Call Transcript is up:

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    15 Aug 2013, 03:40 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2150) | Send Message
     
    APH,
    Thanks for the foresight of starting a new concentrator early A. M.
    15 Aug 2013, 04:04 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    I suppose we should give the execs major kudos for greatly reducing the burn rate of cash. A penny saved is a penny earned.

     

    "Our cash flow used by operating and investing activities was $2.7 million in 2013 compared to $4.3 million in 2012, a reduction in net cash burn of $1.6 million or in effect a reduction of 37%. Rather significant reduction in net cash burn is in alignment with the plans we initiated beginning in 2012 and continuing in 2013."
    15 Aug 2013, 04:16 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10182) | Send Message
     
    LabTech, Depends on what they are working on though. For instance I'm sure they were spending money on the automated sheeting line more heavily last year in the 6 month time frame being compared as an example.

     

    In all actuality I wish they needed 50 million USD soon for reasons you I would love to hear about.
    15 Aug 2013, 04:26 PM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (556) | Send Message
     
    I think thotdoc summarized the call perfectly. TG promised sales before the next conference call in November but otherwise didn't provide much substance.

     

    I clearly took that to be a powercube-type sale. Personally, I expect it to be over $500k and would like to see $1m. Remember, powercube sales are more likely to be one-time events even if they create credibility for Axion in the eyes of potential customers.

     

    If he delivers that's great and maybe we are on our way. I'm confident enough that I'll be buying more shares over the coming weeks but I will be extremely disappointed if it doesn't happen and would expect even a captured board to be extremely disappointed.

     

    For the first time, I'm also very irritated with the earnings call (starting ten minutes late and ending five minutes early). I had asked the last question and tried to follow up but was cut off by the operator ending the call. So, that's three questions and the third was only a partial. I'll follow up with Axion in writing and report back if I learn anything.

     

    Frankly, I liked that Mr. Granville showed some frustration with BMW. Based on my experience with an auto OEM I hope he is making the key technical people less available on those bi-weekly calls. From my experience, BMW will go on endlessly about silly non-relevant details from the perspective of the rest of the world that are a prerequisite according to their bureaucratic rules. An example would be determining what the part numbers will be.

     

    The company I am involved with started off with the auto OEM then worked "down" to specialty vehicles - although not trucking specifically. While the volume is too low for the giant suppliers to get all that excited about, it's plenty for little guys and the OEMs are much more appreciative as well. So, I think it's excellent that Axion appears to be taking its eggs out of the auto OEM basket. I think automotive will be the reward for Axion's success and not the cause of it.

     

    I also like that for the first time Axion seems to be forming a plan that culminates on this side of the horizon rather than beyond. I suspect Axion believes it can get multiple powercube sales over the next twelve months that will stretch their cash resources out (my rough guess is each $1.5m in cube revenue will get them an extra month of runway). So, $6m in cube sales total in 2013 and 2014 would stretch their runway out through year-end 2014. By then, ePower will be going commercial to the tune of ten (minimum) or more kits a month (my guess) and maybe some of Axion's other trucking initiatives will have gotten to the point where ePower is now.

     

    That should make the next financing a minor up round ($50-100m pre-money valuation or $.25-$.50/share).

     

    So, a surprising change of direction from my perspective. I had believed Axion could only sell government subsidized powercubes and that there wouldn't be enough of those to impact the business plan. It seemed that left Axion betting everything on automotive because it didn't have anything that would bridge over the time needed for ePower and trucking to become meaningful.
    15 Aug 2013, 04:18 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    I'm with you, apm.

     

    Am I ever glad that the company diversified their target mkts at least somewhat. A couple zig while a couple zag. BMW and NS drag on while PC and trucking ripen.

     

    Also like that the penny pincher Granville kept right on pinching (although not sure if I would agree on the mkting budget!) evidently where expenditures are no longer needed. The lower cash burn increases fin'l flexibility while they await the ripening. Extremely important, with the PIPE/10 cents potential problem, another cap round probably needed, prospective customers looking at your strength, etc.

     

    I wonder if any of their "PC consortium" partners would want to take a stake in the company? And for that matter, who are those guys, anyway?

     

    One last thought---could be extremely valuable to us shareholders if the new CFO comes with really good investor connections. Off the top of my head, I'd rather pay way, way the heck up (in options, not cash) for a guy like that then pay a low rate for a nobody. Granville just needs to lay his "we're going to the moon, last chance to get on board" sales job on him, like he did us. Granville even mentioned in the CC the prospects' wondering why they should join Axion. Spin it, Big T, spin it good. Bring in a heavy hitter. Tell him he can commute weekends from NYC. 3 year stint, with option for another 2-3. Should be plenty of time for a 10-30 bagger and thus mucho dinero. Go home a hero and a wealthier man.
    15 Aug 2013, 04:48 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    Oh, by the way. From the Q&A:

     

    Avenir Corp.
    Charles G. Mackall, Jr.

     

    Received an A.B. from Princeton University in 1957 and an M.B.A. from the Colgate Darden School of Business Administration at the University of Virginia in 1962. Mr. Mackall worked for 17 years at NS&T Bank (now Sun Trust Banks, Inc.) serving as Vice President and Manager of Commercial Lending before resigning in 1980 to become a founder of Avenir. He was a standing member of both the internal loan committee and the asset-liability committee of the bank. For the past 30 years Mr. Mackall has been active in the investment field.
    15 Aug 2013, 04:25 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (2019) | Send Message
     
    Interesting, the Axion CC Transcript is one of the top articles on SA right now.
    15 Aug 2013, 05:10 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (1134) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for posting this Ranma. Just one more item of several that I found encouraging today. --- All in all, a good day in my book.
    15 Aug 2013, 05:44 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2814) | Send Message
     
    It's still hanging in a # 4 right now.
    15 Aug 2013, 07:33 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    I'm not sure, but I think the number of OTCBB companies that get the transcript treatment on SA is very small. It says a great deal about the importance of the Axion followers to SA.
    15 Aug 2013, 05:20 PM Reply Like
  • anthlj
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    Interesting to see how they price options for new CFO. Surely $1.50 is a tad ridiculous at this point. But if CFOs are much cheaper then what about our old friend SVP sales, others?
    15 Aug 2013, 05:32 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    I don't know but I'd give a heckuva lot to get a person who's well connected with the investment community and their money. It's what we need most from the position. The technical aspects of the job seem pretty basic, even considering requests from BMW, etc. We don't need a techie, we need more investment, now and probably next year.

     

    AXPW can still be huge. Granville needs to sell to that. For a new guy coming in, without the pain of the past, there's a bright future to grab.
    15 Aug 2013, 05:40 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4221) | Send Message
     
    " I don't know but I'd give a heckuva lot to get a person who's well connected with the investment community and their money."

     

    Mr.I ... In reading APC commentary today I seem to perceive a conviction on your part (and some others) that what Axion needs most at this point in time is skill in marketing financial assets. Marketing financial assets is certainly one way to raise capital, but it is by no means the only way. Progressive expansion of commercial PbC sales with a positive margin would be infinitely preferable to another capital raise IMO. I would rather see increased budgeting for expansion of technically competent sales and marketing staff than increased compensation for a fancy dan whizbang financial engineering replacement CFO.

     

    Let Axion establish a record of selling a growing number of PbCs monthly and investment capital will not be hard (or expensive) for Axion to come by. I estimate Axion could be profitable on PbC sales of 1,000 per month or less while possessing manufacturing licenses and sufficient installed capacity (carbon sheeting, electrode assembly and AGM battery assembly) for production of 6,500 - 7,000 PbCs per month.

     

    Where Axion is concerned an axiom of a former Washington Redskins coach of some repute applies, "The future is NOW!" Sell the product and the financing will take care of itself.
    15 Aug 2013, 11:57 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    FWIW, I think the most important words out of Tom's mouth today were:

     

    "I think I may have mentioned in the quarterly reports that we proven of that, a product can be manufactured offsite by a third-party supplier."

     

    A core element of the platform technology business model I helped develop was making electrode assemblies in a form factor that could be used as plug-and-play components in somebody else's AGM battery plant.

     

    The only way to prove that PbC's can be manufactured offsite by a third party is to ship electrode assemblies to a third party, have them make PbC batteries on their production lines and then test the performance of the offsite batteries against the performance of the New Castle batteries.

     

    This is the first express confirmation I've seen that Axion has proven it can be done. It's also the first express confirmation that Axion will be able to grow by building electrode fabrication plants instead of buying or building new battery plants.
    15 Aug 2013, 05:52 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Yes, they hinted at it in the 10Q, but it was very reassuring to hear TG come right out and say they've done it.
    15 Aug 2013, 10:21 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    And the most important thing he left out was time-to-BMW announcement. Any color would have been extremely useful---ballpark, we talking YE, Q2 2014, or what? Of course he might not have any good idea. But he might.

     

    Sales might be way too far away to matter much right now, with the PIPE putting a giant premium on now vs later. But an announcement, on the other hand, could be golden if it can happen soon enough. Anything that illuminates the path helps the stk price.

     

    Man, I sure hope the new CFO "gets" this stuff and can be the investor face of the company.
    15 Aug 2013, 11:46 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    Mr I: with his comments about BMW doing things on their own schedule and Axion focusing (paraphrasing) on apparently lower-hanging fruit, I think he sees BMW order as somewhat distant as the time to get second-source in place can't go all that quickly.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    16 Aug 2013, 05:17 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    The first thing we've learned over the last four years is that companies like BMW and NS move at their own pace and even when things go well that pace seems glacial to the outside world. The second thing we've learned is that companies like BMW and NS want their partners to keep their heads down and their mouths shut while they cross their Ts, dot their Is and write internal reports. That's no darned fun if you're a company like Axion that has to pay its own expenses during training camp.

     

    I think Axion sees ePower and others as shorter-term opportunities for enough sales to prove the value of the PbC to a skeptical market that thinks all battery manufacturers are liars.

     

    Until I got involved with ePower my faith in the PbC was based on the things Axion told me. Now that I'm involved with ePower I'm seeing the PbC from an entirely different perspective – the user's perspective.

     

    ePower used flooded batteries in its first-generation tractor. They gassed electrolyte at incredible rates and couldn't handle more than a couple hours of driving before the truck had to be put on a charger for 8 to 12 hours. By the time the truck accumulated 3,000 miles the batteries were shot.

     

    ePower tried AGM batteries in its second generation tractor. They eliminated the daily maintenance headaches but had a nasty habit of melting terminals during regenerative braking and couldn't handle more than a couple hours of driving before the truck had to be put on a charger for 8 to 12 hours. By the time the truck accumulated 3,000 miles the AGM batteries were shot.

     

    ePower was not entirely satisfied with the first set of PbC batteries Axion delivered last year because it was having a hard time drawing as much boost power from the batteries as it had been able to draw from flooded and AGM. The PbC2.0 batteries Axion delivered in March eliminated the problem and gave ePower the stable battery solution it had been seeking for four years.

     

    In April they hopped in the tractor and drove it non-stop from Florence Kentucky to New Market Iowa. After spending a day with the owner, they turned around and drove it home non-stop. There were no charger intervals before either leg and the batteries had the same SOC on arrival that they had on departure. For the first time in ePower's history the tractor is performing the way it has to perform if ePower wants to sell it to the trucking industry.

     

    From ePower's perspective, the PbC is far more than a desirable upgrade. It is an essential enabling technology for a good idea that couldn't work without it.

     

    BMW and NS are going to take their own sweet time making decisions. ePower wants to have two new third-generation prototypes built and fuel economy tested this fall. It then wants to launch small fleet durability tests with operators who are willing put the tractors to work hauling freight on a daily basis. The reason is really pretty simple. Truckers know that truck technology developers and battery manufacturers are liars. The won't believe claims from ePower or Axion until they have one of their own drivers behind the wheel hauling freight and reporting performance directly.

     

    If the operators are happy with fuel economy, hauling capacity and durability, word will spread like wildfire.
    16 Aug 2013, 06:06 AM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    "... word will spread like wildfire" and the dreams of some investors will be in technicolor.
    16 Aug 2013, 07:55 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    John - At this point, how many miles has the rig with the new PbC batteries run? Tks.
    16 Aug 2013, 09:20 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    It's in the neighborhood of 10,000 miles but I don't have a precise figure.

     

    That's the biggest reason ePower wants to get a small fleet out in the hands of operators who will drive the tractors all day every day hauling freight. Even 10 units in the hands of operators will accumulate a million miles over the course of a year. When you start talking about a million miles of fuel economy and reliability data in the hands of fleet operators, then you have something worth pounding the table over.
    16 Aug 2013, 09:40 AM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (1165) | Send Message
     
    >>When you start talking about a million miles of fuel economy and reliability data in the hands of fleet operators, then you have something worth pounding the table over.<<

     

    I just hope they make sure the trucks are ready for prime time before they start putting them in the hands of trucking fleet operators. A few trucks getting stranded due to electrical glitches will quickly shut down any enthusiasm for the product.
    16 Aug 2013, 11:53 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    ePower has designed its system for reliability using off the shelf industrial components that typically last three to six times longer than a diesel engine and transmission. Unfortunately the only way to test the durability of the integrated system is to put a small fleet on the road with operators who understand they're driving prototypes and are willing to live with the minor and potentially major problems that are always involved in prototype testing.

     

    Unless Murphy has died, there will be problems and it will be up to ePower to respond promptly and modify its design to avoid a recurrence of the same problem in the future.

     

    The system doesn't need to be perfect for the fuel economy verification and durability testing phase, but it damned sure needs to be reliable when it's introduced to the industry as a finished product.

     

    When the current owner of the two second generation prototypes was pushing for a place at the head of the line his pitch to ePower included the memorable advantage of "I own my own tow truck so breakdowns will be less of a problem for me than they might be for others."
    16 Aug 2013, 12:18 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    Highest 1-day volume since I started tracking 2/6/2012: 2802.68K or, more comprehensibly, 2.803MM.

     

    Financiers and retailers combo on CC day?

     

    Wait 'till you see what the action was before the CC started.

     

    That'll come up later as I get a "Round Tuit".

     

    HardToLove
    15 Aug 2013, 06:05 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    Today was the highest volume day since I started tracking in January 2004.

     

    I'm really intrigued by the way the FINRA short numbers seem to be shaping up as a reasonable proxy for selling activity by the PIPErs. The monthly FINRA short percentages for the last four months have been 30.29% in May, 23.29% in June, 23.99% in July and 21.05% for the first half of August.

     

    While those numbers don't seem huge, they suggest that the PIPErs represented ~60% of sell side volume coming out of the chute and have throttled back to ~40% of sell side volume after beating the price down to a level that was most advantageous to them for the first couple of recurring monthly installments. We're still early enough in the process that I'm not 100% confident of what I think I'm seeing in the FINRA short data, but I am getting more comfortable with my thesis with each passing day.
    15 Aug 2013, 06:15 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    Daily shorts began a trend up around 4/22 though and peaked just prior to(?) 6/3 and started trending down again.

     

    HardToLove
    15 Aug 2013, 06:22 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    My thesis has always been that they pounded hard at the very beginning to move the price down and keep it down long enough to ensure the best conversion rate possible for the first three installments due in July, September and October, but payable in June, August and September.

     

    When that kind of selling pressure kicks in, it immediately increases the angst level among the street holders and some of them always decide to sell and wait on the sidelines until something happens. So it takes less stock from the PIPErs to have the desired impact on the stock price.

     

    From this point forward there's no particular advantage to keeping up the pressure and forcing the price lower. If the PIPErs goal is to buy cheap and sell dear they really want the price to go up, not down. The investing public's "old tapes" of PIPE deals that went very badly invariably involve companies that were already stretched to the breaking point with other debt. That set up a dynamic where their PIPErs were forced to be overly aggressive if they wanted to get their money back, even if it hurt their returns.

     

    I don't believe those "old tapes" apply to Axion because the underlying business is in far better financial condition.
    15 Aug 2013, 06:34 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    In your view, when, if ever, do/did the PIPErs start accumulating shares for later disposal, vs selling all they get each month?
    15 Aug 2013, 06:54 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    I don't see the PIPErs as long term investors and I think they follow a rigid discipline of getting their principal back every month come hell or high water. I think they're a bit more opportunistic when it comes to selling their yield shares and are likely to get very opportunistic if the spread between their purchase price and the market price widens.

     

    I'm convinced the number of investors watching from the sidelines is a decent sized multiple of the 5,000 that have already bought. As the price starts to move off a bottom that's been tested with a rebound, I think buy side activity may increase and given the lower selling profile of the PIPErs over the last month, any new buying can start an upward ramp that will push the PIPErs yield sky high.

     

    It's still early, but the FINRA data seems to be showing the same patterns we saw with the big uglies, we've had a double bottom on the price and Granville is creating specific time-frame expectations for the first time. Now I just have to hope that the turn I've been expecting for a very long time is finally at hand.
    15 Aug 2013, 08:09 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    One would think that record volume for a couple of days indicates Something ... especially when the stock doesn't tank.
    16 Aug 2013, 04:47 PM Reply Like
  • Retired Aviator
    , contributor
    Comments (2266) | Send Message
     
    <<record volume for a couple of days indicates Something>>

     

    I disagree that the recent record volume is meaningful. At fourteen cents on average, 2.8 million shares is only $392k. The volume in _dollars_ these "record" 2 trading days is probably well below historical record dollar volume, which is what really matters.

     

    Somebody adding 2 grand to their position on Friday got around 15000 shares (of volume) for their money. However several months ago a $2000 buy only amounted to 6000 shares or so. But (the commitment of) 2 grand is the measure of buying interest, not the number of shares.
    19 Aug 2013, 02:19 AM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (321) | Send Message
     
    Well said and a very good point Retired Aviator.

     

    geopark
    19 Aug 2013, 11:04 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4825) | Send Message
     
    Off Topic ... BUT Funny. Tesla can't sell cars in China with their Logo because of a trademark troll. "Tesla currently can put its trademark “Tesla Motors” only on certain types of vehicles, namely planes, trains, ships and motorized sleds ... it excludes the use of the trademark on cars and auto parts."

     

    http://bit.ly/18yoWSl
    15 Aug 2013, 06:55 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2814) | Send Message
     
    $550 For Ford C-Max Hybrid Owners After Ford Motor Co. (F) Revises Fuel Economy Estimates Down By 4 MPG
    http://bit.ly/143o2NT

     

    Here’s what Ford said after markets closed in New York on Thursday:

     

    “Because this voluntary step results in miles-per-gallon values different from the original C-MAX Hybrid label, Ford … is making a goodwill payment to current C-MAX Hybrid owners for the estimated average fuel cost of the difference between the two labels. Customers who purchased their vehicle will receive a check from Ford for $550. Customers who leased their vehicle will receive a check for $325.”
    15 Aug 2013, 08:14 PM Reply Like
  • isthisonebetter
    , contributor
    Comments (380) | Send Message
     
    JP,

     

    This is my first time posting, but I've been holding AXPW since early summer 2012 (lucky relative to most here) and I've recently increased my holdings modestly (within my means, so ~33%). Someone had posted earlier that you suggest anyone who hasn't attended a shareholder meeting but has the opportunity should do so. I just recently graduated college and moved to PA for work, relatively close to New Castle. What I'm wondering is what are my big advantages to attending the shareholder meeting and what insight may I be able to gain that I won't otherwise have? Please forgive my ignorance, I'm still pretty new to investing.

     

    Thanks,
    G
    15 Aug 2013, 11:21 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (3469) | Send Message
     
    Axion could take 3-5+ years to come into fruition if your hoping on the BIG oem deals to ever come in. Thus you may want to meet those who will be a steward of your money during this journey. If the trip cost is only a fraction of your invested capital it might make sense.
    16 Aug 2013, 04:48 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    The world is full of story-tellers and I should know because that's a big part of my job description. In the final analysis, however, the story will only get you so far. There has to be a solid technical foundation for the story and there have to be managers, scientists and employees who can execute on the plan. Over the years I've heard more wonderful stories and seen more wonderful technologies than you can imagine. I've never had a client that experienced an abject technology failure but I've had lots of clients that didn't have the ability to execute.

     

    I've reached a point in my life where I'm convinced that the team is the only thing that matters. Executives and managers who have a proven track record of success in other business endeavors can do more with a mediocre technology than a team of rookies can with a miracle and a mission. Particularly in micro-caps, it's critically important for an investor to know the team and make his own judgment about their ability to execute.
    16 Aug 2013, 06:24 AM Reply Like
  • isthisonebetter
    , contributor
    Comments (380) | Send Message
     
    Thank you both for your answers. I wasn't aware of the socializing opportunities shareholder meetings present. I'm going to see if I can manage a way to attend.

     

    G
    17 Aug 2013, 03:13 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    Buenos días!!

     

    From: Earnings Call Transcript

     

    ...We have and will continue to tell the story of the potential hybrid engine conversion market especially for Class B vehicles.

     

    My question is: Which are the class B vehicles?

     

    Saludos-Carlos
    16 Aug 2013, 06:00 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    I think that was a typo in the transcript that should have read Class 8 vehicles.

     

    Class 8 trucks are subdivided into two categories. Class 8A includes single chassis vehicles and tractor trailer combinations in the 33,000 to 60,000 pound GVW range that average 60,000 miles per year and haul a typical payload of 9 tons. Class 8B includes tractor-trailer combinations in the 60,000 to 80,000 pound GVW range that average 80,000 miles per year and haul a typical payload of 20 tons. In long-haul freight fleets, a Class 8B tractor will typically log 125,000 miles a year with a single driver and over 200,000 miles a year with multiple drivers.

     

    The second-generation ePower drivetrain is well-suited to the needs of the Class 8A segment, but it hasn't been installed on the short wheelbase chassis you typically see in the 8A segment. The second-generation ePower drivetrain is not beefy enough for the heavier loads in the Class 8B segment.

     

    Over the next couple months ePower will be building two new third-generation prototypes. The first will use the current four-cylinder engine on a short wheelbase day cab tractor for the Class 8A segment. The second will use the larger Cummins six-cylinder engine on a long wheelbase sleeper cab tractor for the Class 8B segment. We want to finish fuel economy testing on both prototypes before the snow flies.
    16 Aug 2013, 06:37 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    JP: Speaking of "snow flies", no one's mentioned the potential benefit of traction control that *could* be part of some (future?) setup. Can't tell you how many rigs I've seen on their side in the median or along the side of the road in hilly terrain when snow and ice appeared.

     

    I navigated 'em OK because of experience gained living in Denver CO 5 years and applying a little "brain-power traction control", which seems sadly lacking in non-gearheads and even many gearheads.

     

    Anyway, another potential selling point when trying to ease away from the stop light on a snow incline or make it up that hill as speed degrades. Big plus: no downshifts by the driver needed (assuming he's smart enough to minimize torque by trying to stay in the highest possible gear when starting up: clarifying, speaking of a conventional set up on that highest gear thingy).

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    16 Aug 2013, 06:51 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    For now ePower is focused on fuel economy and durability because a tractor that can't get a load to its destination on schedule is worse than useless. ePower is making a very smart truck that takes many decisions away from the driver, but the extra bells and whistles are not a current priority.
    16 Aug 2013, 07:09 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1529) | Send Message
     
    HTL

     

    Interesting side point you make. I would have though that the hybrids extra torque would make spinning ones wheels *more* likely.

     

    -David
    16 Aug 2013, 09:12 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1841) | Send Message
     
    Think about the smart suspensions of sports cars that are managed by computers that measure slip and apply the brakes so automatically and smoothly that there is no wheel spin when no wheel spin will improve performance.
    16 Aug 2013, 10:37 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    D lane: You're right. But the control software and electronics can detect slippage and reduce torque. Ideally it would be for each individual wheel so those that have traction could provide work while the slipping one regained traction.

     

    If you have only a single motor and an open axle, can't tell which wheel is spinning unless more sensors are added. Then you'd have to use braking on that individual wheel - starts getting more complicated and expensive.

     

    If you have a locked axle, all wheels are spinning and torque is reduced to all wheels, allowing traction to be regained.

     

    In summary, it's controlling the application of torque or reducing torque that does the trick. You can always reduce torque somehow if the software and hardware is there.

     

    Example: I was at a stoplight on a hill with crowned pavement in Dnever CO. Back end started sliding to the curb. What? Opened door, looked back and saw my posi-traction on my 442 was slowly spinning both wheels through the Turbo-400 automatic.

     

    Lesson: foot solidly on brake when sitting on ice.

     

    I extrapolated that to throwing tranny into neutral, so engine torque was removed from drive wheels, if a "fast stop" for some idiot was needed on a slippery surface.

     

    HardToLove
    16 Aug 2013, 10:48 AM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (1134) | Send Message
     
    Great explanation JP. --- Thanks.
    16 Aug 2013, 12:09 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Snow, Ice and trucks. If I had to drive in a snow storm my choice of vehicle would be a big truck with 25k in the box. They put around 6k per wheel end on the ground (more than any other vehicle).

     

    The key to driving in snow is a steady/easy throttle. Shifting gears can get you and you also want to avoid using the brakes. The cruise control is also OFF if you suspect any wheel slippage. I would think an ePower tractor might do well in the snow if there was feather like control of the throttle. I would be happy to test drive in the next snow storm <hint>.

     

    There are several levels of traction controls in the class 8 truck. All of which should be operational regardless on the engine/transmission. The most common is part of the anti-lock brake system and will lightly brake a free spinning wheel.

     

    The complain that I foresee is when a driver tries to "rock" the truck to get going after being parked all night. This is where you work the clutch to move forward and then rock backwards creating a ramp in the snow to climb to the top. Autoshift transmissions have a hard time with this one...
    16 Aug 2013, 05:38 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1834) | Send Message
     
    JP,

     

    I am curious to know how much business can ePower expect in the short to medium term (i.e < 1 year)? We know they are currently working on a 10 truck set, but how many truck retrofits would they need to actually justify a contract for, say, monthly recurring PbC supplies from Axion?

     

    Thanks
    A
    16 Aug 2013, 07:16 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1529) | Send Message
     
    Amouna- The ePower product is still in the prototype stage. I think more patience is required.
    16 Aug 2013, 09:14 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    Forecasting potential growth for ePower is darned near impossible because it all depends on the assumptions you want to make. Since ePower has to plan for a worst case scenario, it's currently assuming that fleet operators won't believe a word it says. If that assumption is correct, the only way to build customer interest will be to give a fleet operator the keys to a tractor and say:

     

    "Use this tractor in your business for a couple months. If you don't like the performance after two months, return the tractor with a full tank of fuel and we'll be square. If you do like the performance after a couple months, we'll want you to rent it from us for another year at a rental of $XXX or buy it from us at a price of $YYY."

     

    In a worst case scenario where ePower has to build all the tractors on its own dime and put them out to operators that may end up choosing a rental over a purchase, doing ten retrofits over the next year would be a challenge, but it would be a challenge ePower could handle with its current staff of wrench turners.

     

    When ePower launched its second-generation prototypes, it sold four of them right out of the chute. It got into litigation with one of the buyers who was trying to pirate the IP. So it pulled its drivetrains out of that buyer's two tractors. One of the two remaining prototypes has already been upgraded to the PbC and we're hoping to use the other one for the third-generation upgrade with the Cummins six. A second planned third-generation prototype will use a John Deere four banger on a short wheelbase day cab chassis. By late September ePower wants to have two third-generation prototypes, one for the Class 8A segment of 33,000 to 60,000 pounds and one for the Class 8B segment of 60,000 to 80,000 pounds.

     

    ePower hopes to complete its fuel economy testing of both third-generation prototypes before the snow flies. When it goes to fleet operators with that data the more conservative types will take the "give it a try" proposal while more aggressive early adopters may well say "Let me buy one and see how it works."

     

    Unfortunately nobody has enough experience to predict what those ratios will be. We also don't have enough experience to know what the fleet operator response will be after a two month free test period. Some will undoubtedly take the rental extension offer while others are likely to say "Let me buy this one and order a half-dozen more."

     

    ePower's current facility has enough floor space to accommodate ten to twelve working retrofits at any one time. It's current staff can't do more than one at a time, but hiring and training truck mechanics is not like hiring and training rocket scientists. Currently it takes the staff about three weeks to do a tear down and install. As instals get more standardized and crews get more experienced, the turnaround time will get shorter.

     

    If you want to assume slow and plodding progress then ePower will probably do 10 units over the next year. If you assume it will do two units in Q4 and ramp to a full shop over nine months, the number could be as high as 55 tractors. If you want to assume that one or more fleet operators will want to buy kits and do their own work the numbers could be much larger.

     

    I think it would be a mistake to expect huge revenue from ePower over the next 12 months but I also expect ePower's progress to generate far more buzz than the raw revenue numbers would justify.
    16 Aug 2013, 09:21 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1529) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, JP

     

    and buzz just might be all we need. . . But at this point it seems we have a 'show me' stock and increasing revenue and visibility on revenue is whats needed.
    16 Aug 2013, 09:25 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1834) | Send Message
     
    Thank you for the detailed response JP. I would say 6 months at least before we get constructive feedback from truckers, which would ultimately give ePower some clarity on where business is headed...
    16 Aug 2013, 11:18 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    The first feedback will be detailed fuel economy tests at various weights and speeds, which is more than anybody in the industry currently offers. Most won't publish fuel economy numbers at all. Them that do publish at a single weight on a flat level test track.

     

    Feedback from truckers will be an important second tier of information, but the initial fuel economy tests in gently rolling hills with grades of 1% to 3% and typical altitude changes of up to 300 feet will draw an immense amount of attention from the industry.
    16 Aug 2013, 11:26 AM Reply Like
  • nummik
    , contributor
    Comments (69) | Send Message
     
    Apparently I have a win win win situation on my hands, a win for the happy Axionistas who bought 20% of my shares I sold (instead of 50 % because of the final deadline limit of next CC) and a win for the Pipers who didn't need to sell the shares I sold and a win for me because I redeployed the money to some even more beat down stocks in another sector ...
    16 Aug 2013, 08:07 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    Each person makes his own decisions, in my case I do not sell and try to buy more every time the price low.

     

    Feliz dia-Carlos
    16 Aug 2013, 08:11 AM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    "The second-generation ePower drivetrain is well-suited to the needs of the Class 8A segment, but it hasn't been installed on the short wheelbase chassis you typically see in the 8A segment. The second-generation ePower drivetrain is not beefy enough for the heavier loads in the Class 8B segment."

     

    - Does this mean the fuel mileage chart that you previously posted was speculation and not derived directly from the performance numbers?
    If this is the case, how do you expect those number to change with the new separate form factors? (and will you post a new chart?)

     

    When you say "not beefy enough", what was the limitation? Engine power? Battery boost? Energy recovery rate?
    16 Aug 2013, 08:13 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    The existing second-generation prototype is built on a long and heavy sleeper cab chassis. The fuel economy numbers are based on gross vehicle weight, which is a combination of the tractor weight and the trailer weight.

     

    There is no speculation in the graph because all of ePower's fuel economy tests were conducted according to SAE J1321 protocols using multiple trips over several 40 to 46.5 mile routes with city, suburban and highway profiles. Data was recorded at average speeds of 55 and 59 mph and any results that deviated from the average by more than 5% were excluded.

     

    The numbers ePower generated with its second-generation tractor are already in the sweet spot for Class 8A which includes GVWs from 33,000 to 60,000 pounds. They're also in the sweet spot for Europe which generally limits truck weights to 60,000 pounds and limits truck speeds to 56 to 62 mph. To go after those markets, ePower only needs to install the drivetrain on a shorter wheelbase chassis and it doesn't see any particular challenges or obstacles.

     

    The bigger challenge is the Class 8B segment of 60,000 to 80,000 pounds where the John Deere four banger doesn't put out enough net horsepower to haul the load at highway speeds. All the numbers say the Cummins six will solve that problem but until a prototype is built and tested you're selling a spreadsheet instead of a machine.
    16 Aug 2013, 09:39 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10182) | Send Message
     
    So is the class 8A unit third generation primarily a proof of concept unit with a John Deer engine/Marathon generator? It's purpose to function as a packaging study and to gather data to see what kind of performance can be expected? Would it be marketed with this component set? I thought I recalled that the John Deer engine with the Marathon generator were not intended to be marketed to customers but were instead for development.
    16 Aug 2013, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    We already have the data on what the ePower drivetrain with a John Deere four banger does at speed and weight. Building the Class 8A prototype is merely a matter of fitting the ePower components on a smaller chassis.

     

    Jay has always focused on Class 8B segment because that's where the per vehicle fuel use is highest. He didn't expect the level of interest he's been getting from the US and European operators of lighter duty fleets.

     

    The existing second-generation system with Axion batteries already meets the load and speed requirements of Class 8A and Europe. It's a product. It would be the height of insanity to ignore the current product and focus on getting to a potential product that's only suitable for the most demanding users.
    16 Aug 2013, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • KentG
    , contributor
    Comments (368) | Send Message
     
    John, is ePower planning to install the Deere four banger removed from the sleeper chassis on the class 8A prototype? Any other components transferred? Just curious.
    16 Aug 2013, 12:36 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10182) | Send Message
     
    OK, good. So the existing second generation unit with John Deer and Marathon is a product. But with a sleeper cab. Doesn't the owner have a route that runs at under 60,000 pounds where he could put this in daily use? I think in a prior response you indicated he was only interested in an 8B solution but surely Epower would like to get long term data with as many miles as possible sooner rather than later. This, I guess, is where I'm going with my query.
    16 Aug 2013, 12:38 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    The owner is pretty set in his determination to have 80,000 pound capacities and highway speeds. The second-generation tractor simply isn't beefy enough to suit him. Data from a single truck, like data from a single battery powered locomotive, is only mildly interesting. Data from a fleet of 10 trucks, or better yet 10 Class 8A and ten more Class 8B approaches compelling.

     

    The owner has two second generation prototypes on sleeper chassis; a white one and a green one. ePower has a plan that will leave the white sleeper as a second generation prototype, use the drivetrain from the green sleeper to refit the day cab and install the Cummins six in the green sleeper. It has the dual advantage of being cheap and fast. Messing with the plan to develop a little bit of data a little bit sooner is suboptimal.

     

    There's no sense asking the owner to test something we know he doesn't want when we can have him testing exactly what he wants within a couple months.
    16 Aug 2013, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10182) | Send Message
     
    OK, Thanks John. I agree 100 % concerning the point regarding respecting the owners wishes.

     

    I also agree with your point on needing more than one rig over some time frame/duty cycle to statistically veryify performance and to get data to support sales efforts.

     

    I do however feel that if there were some way to get a single unit out in the field running hard at a JF/Marathon gen 2 level ASAP there would be internal value in such an exercize. That they don't have access to such a unit now makes this impossible so it is what it is.

     

    Again, Thanks for clarifying next steps.
    16 Aug 2013, 02:23 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (1106) | Send Message
     
    John-

     

    How is Jay (ePower) getting questions/requests for info from operators in the US/Europe? Are there more than a few?

     

    Assume its coming from the Fleet & Fuels mag as you won't just stumble on the website or the APCs unless you are looking for it.
    16 Aug 2013, 02:37 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    The trucking industry is a fairly gossipy group with a great grapevine. Between appearances at truck shows and meetings with fleet operators there are a lot of eyes watching ePower. When you start adding in the strength of my network and Axion's there's plenty of interest from North America and Europe. The big things everybody's waiting for are an ePower drivetrain on a short wheelbase chassis for Class 8A and a heftier ePower drivetrain on a long wheelbase chassis for Class 8B.
    16 Aug 2013, 03:52 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2814) | Send Message
     
    John
    I'm still trying to deal with the problem that John Deer doesn't have the infrastructure in the trucking world.
    Yes they are global a huge company etc, but if a trucker says it stopped downtown Long Island; where will he get it fixed?

     

    Also is the EU going to accept it?
    16 Aug 2013, 04:45 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    froggey77: And IIRC, JP has mentioned it's not EPA certified. John, correct?

     

    HardToLove
    16 Aug 2013, 05:14 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30457) | Send Message
     
    Froggey77> John Deere is not the only engine manufacturer on the planet and there are several European engines that could work as a drop in replacements if they were available in the US.

     

    ePower has embarked on a path where challenges will be addressed when they arise. For now the only thing that matters is building a system that works and proving its fuel economy. When fuel economy is proven and durability is being proven by the prototype fleet, there will be plenty of time to figure out what steps will be required at the EPA and what changes will be needed for a definitive commercial product.

     

    Remember, time exists to keep everything from happening at once and today's problems are the only ones anybody can truly deal with.

     

    I used to love the story about the kid who got a pile of manure for his birthday and dove in head first because "there has to be a pony in there somewhere."

     

    Somehow somewhere along the lines the Axionista mentality has changed to a degree that the kid gets a pony for is birthday and instead of going for a ride he goes to bed and worries about the manure problem.
    16 Aug 2013, 05:42 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4221) | Send Message
     
    HTL, froggey ... As I recall, JP has mentioned the John Deere engine is EPA certified for stationary use but not not mobile use. However, EPA's mobile certification standard applies to engines directly connected to drive wheels. That is, EPA regs did not foresee serial hybrids and its mobile emission standard does not apply to an ePower truck configuration.

     

    One might want to keep three points in mind in contemplating the potential issue of EPA regulations regarding Deere equipped ePower trucks.

     

    1. ePower trucks equipped with John Deere 4-cyl engines are not in violation of existing EPA emission regulations.
    2. ePower trucks burning 2/3 - 1/2 of the fuel required for a standard ICE diesel configuration for the same load would produce lower emissions than the EPA mobile certified standard ICE diesel.
    3. ePower trucks equipped with John Deere engines could probably be retrofitted with devices that reduce emissions to EPA mobile engine cert standards.
    17 Aug 2013, 12:47 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18444) | Send Message
     
    D-Inv: Good info. It looks to me like your #2 eliminates the need for #3?

     

    Emissions are measured on a per mile/km basis? So less fuel used = lower emissions?

     

    Exception would be heavy urban driving w/o s/s I guess.

     

    HardToLove
    17 Aug 2013, 06:36 AM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (2279) | Send Message
     
    Very interesting insight. I started gardening at a very young age, probably 8. Had to take whatever hardscrabble ground my Dad would let me work - generally where no grass grew and the clay was only useful to red ants. Manure was gold back then and I remain an optimist to this day. Perhaps I learned a lesson without realizing it.
    17 Aug 2013, 01:53 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (2279) | Send Message
     
    It seems to me that the rationale that made NS work on the switcher first also forms the basis for the Class 8A being a better start point.

     

    Similarly, the entire hybrid auto effort best serves those with shorter routes, more start/stops or brake&boost opportunities for payback. The long-distance highway-driving commuter does not get as much return.

     

    I'm not at all surprised by the level of interest.
    17 Aug 2013, 06:10 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10182) | Send Message
     
    D-inv, Good points.

     

    One caveat. Emissions are not just tied to the amount of energy consumed to move the vehicle a certain distance. There are limits assigned to individual components in the emissions.

     

    The diesel engine used in the ePower application should be advantaged in this regard because it can work in a sweet spot with the battery managing much of the variable work. However I have no idea how the engine compares to road specific engine designs with certain levels of exhaust treatments utilized to reduce certain components in the exhaust.

     

    I have no idea why certain US government agencies are willing to give ePower a pass on emissions testing if this is the case. I'm sure ePower is happy concerning this opportunity but I'll also bet they are thinking about the longer term risks of being in a position with special government exclusions. This only being the case for the Deer engine.
    17 Aug 2013, 06:46 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4221) | Send Message
     
    " I'm sure ePower is happy concerning this opportunity but I'll also bet they are thinking about the longer term risks of being in a position with special government exclusions. This only being the case for the Deer engine."

     

    Certainly prudent to have "plan B" in mind for any commercial enterprise. :-) I would quibble with characterizing ePower's current class 8A solution as "being in a position with special government exclusions" though. Rather than seeing "special government exclusions" I see a solution consistent with federal government regulations as written. It does not appear a prohibited solution or a solution requiring special waivers/variances as seen so many times with mandates of The Affordable Care Act.
    17 Aug 2013, 08:07 PM Reply Like