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  • ha ha - european time wins this time :)
    26 Aug 2013, 06:34 AM Reply Like
  • Sleep deprived in N.C. comes second! :-((


    26 Aug 2013, 06:48 AM Reply Like
  • In the Q and A from the latest conference call TG said


    “I think I may have mentioned in the quarterly reports that we have proven… a product can be manufactured offsite by a third-party supplier.


    JP soon after took note and suggested this was the most, or among the most, important takeaways from the CC


    I do not think there has been much in further discussion on this


    To me this is very important achievement and benchmark on a number of levels


    1. It strengthens AXPW’s negotiating position on licensing applications with major battery manufacturers in the fields where growth will be developed


    2. It means AXPW will stick to marketing the basics of its technology letting others do the capital ramp up for production of large volumes


    3. It suggests management have a vision and plan to ramp up while limiting capital costs


    Lastly it suggests management will stick to “doing what they do do well” and not get distracted into capital intensive risky developments


    This should all lead to higher, low risk profits as the technology is financially exploited in a variety of marketplaces
    26 Aug 2013, 07:35 AM Reply Like
  • dimca, I agree with your conclusions.


    The most exciting TG comment short-term was the "you'll hear from us soon" remark.


    The most exciting TG comment long-term was the third-party off site remark as you have outlined.


    "Soon" is always good in the shrinking pond we live in. Kinda like those tiny fish that can exist in brackish water in monsoon territory. Dry weather shrinks the pond to dry and the fish bury themselves deeply in the mud only to thrive again when the rain arrives. Thriving is good for little fish.


    "Long-term" is even better if you want to live in the ocean as a blue-fin tuna, grow to 1,500 # and swim at 55 mph.


    I love having both long-term and short-term, but you I think have pushed the button of the super exciting comment TG made. Would love to trade in my minnow status into one of those sleek shiny ocean rockets.


    Meanwhile I'll accept a short-term downpour. I'm thirsty.
    26 Aug 2013, 08:23 AM Reply Like
  • Valleywood, Not a stick in the mud eh? Aspiring to wetter pastures?
    26 Aug 2013, 08:30 AM Reply Like
  • dlmca,


    “I think I may have mentioned in the quarterly reports that we have proven… a product can be manufactured offsite by a third-party supplier."


    Is this third party one that is negotiating with Axion for the BMW contract? If so it would mean that an announcement could be sooner rather than later. Of course the fact that TG downplayed BMW means that actual revenues may still be a long ways off.
    26 Aug 2013, 08:41 AM Reply Like
  • Axion has a "chicken versus egg" issue to resolve. Presumably, Axion has now demonstrated technical feasibility of its long term strategic plan to produce electrodes that are virtual drop in replacements for negative electrodes used in mass production of conventional AGM batteries. And, presumably, it has done so in collaboration with a large scale producer that might be an established auto OEM supplier.


    Problem is, three is no established market for millions or even hundreds of thousands of PbC batteries per year. Without such a market where is the incentive for a very large scale battery OEM to negotiate a production/partnership agreement with Axion?


    Announcement of an Axion-battery OEM partnership/co-production agreement would be tantamount to disclosure of a design win, at minimum. I now believe it unlikely we will hear anything more about BMW-Axion unless and until PbC batteries appear in BMW commercial production vehicles.
    26 Aug 2013, 09:13 AM Reply Like
  • “I think I may have mentioned in the quarterly reports that we have proven… a product can be manufactured offsite by a third-party supplier."


    Sorry to be a wet blanket. But what does "a product" mean? Could it mean the Hub that was supposed to be manufactured offsite by a third-party supplier?
    26 Aug 2013, 09:17 AM Reply Like
  • >D-inv ... I think if everything goes well we will never hear anything about a BMW-Axion agreement ever again. That would be my hope.
    26 Aug 2013, 09:39 AM Reply Like
  • D-Inv> I agree with your assessment that a major manufacturer would have no incentive to enter into a production partnership with Axion unless it had extremely credible assurances that there will be a market for the batteries produced by such a partnership. I also agree that the announcement of an agreement with another battery manufacturer that supplies batteries to BMW would be tantamount to the announcement of a design win.


    Fortunately I have a hard time imagining a situation where Axion could enter into a meaningful partnership with another manufacturer that would not be a mandatory disclosure under SEC rules.


    Maxwell faced exactly the same issue with Peugeot a few years back. It entered into a relationship with Continental to make systems for the auto industry and when the design win was finally announced, Peugeot said it was buying a battery-supercapacitor system from Continental. Maxwell's name never came up in a Peugeot press release, but the market price of the stock reflected the design win as soon as the Continental relationship was inked because everybody in the market knew what was going on.
    26 Aug 2013, 10:01 AM Reply Like
  • Never mind. I went back and looked at the statement in context and it follows a direct question on BMW:


    "Good morning. Had a question, just wondered if you could update us what was going on with your work with BMW. I saw where they were sort of coming out with a new hybrid and I was hoping to see something about Axion Power in that, I didn’t, just maybe an update would be useful.


    Thomas Granville - Chairman, Chief Executive Officer
    Sure. Yes, they are developing a number of different initiatives in a number of different markets. We continue our work with them; we continue our work with another supplier. I think I may have mentioned in the quarterly reports that we proven of that, a product can be manufactured offsite by a third-party supplier. So we are continuing that testing and application.


    And we continue to have our meeting with BMW on a regular biweekly basis, with the meeting thrown in there in between on as needed basis. As we have reported a number of times before, that market will happen when it happens. We have taken it off the table as far as looking at our breakeven points and projecting what our sales will be for the next year or so. When that comes, it will be an addition to what our projections show, those projections for some of the markets that I have already spoken about."
    26 Aug 2013, 10:10 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan, Thanks for posting that. Bi-weekly meetings with an occasional additional meeting thrown in as necessary in is a pretty high level of activity. To me it sounds like BMW is very active in supporting the mating process. Just pure speculation on my part but I couldn't envision this level of activity for engineering purposes only.
    26 Aug 2013, 10:31 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco, All public schools in Virginia have now opened as of today for the 2013-2014 school year. All US territories and protectorates will be open as of next Tuesday, 3 September. Wall Street fund managers' will have their children in place on that day and the managers will be in the saddle making investment decisions.


    Capital Budget meetings during the following three weeks will have real teeth in them for expenditures slated in the 2013 budget, and preliminary projects for 2014, if in receipt of preliminary approval will have bite to them as well.


    From the arctic circle and south close to the equator all US participants and their friends will begin making capital expenditures. I expect the masked man from mystery buyer #4 to make himself known next month. Possibly a tag-along as a bonus.


    I'm not asking for Noah's flood. But a torrential downpour would be nice. Aspiring to wetter??? You bet your bippie !


    Lookin' for water, Boss. Lookin' for water here !
    26 Aug 2013, 11:50 AM Reply Like
  • DRich.


    Amen !
    26 Aug 2013, 11:58 AM Reply Like
  • >Valleywood ... If you'd been reading these concentrators for the past several years you'd know we've been waiting for the mud to dry up. It never has. Doesn't look like it ever will. Now you want a torrential downpour?


    This makes as much sense as listening to the farmers down at the diner wanting the government to do away with "welfare" and raise the drought & crop subsidies. We need a primer for our metaphors here because they are out of synch. Makes my head hurt.
    26 Aug 2013, 12:12 PM Reply Like
  • dlmca---good points but all have been thoroughly built into AXPW stockholder expectations for a long, long time. It's very nice to checkmark off another "core investment thesis requirement", but announcement of an agreement should be the needle mover.
    26 Aug 2013, 12:20 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan, your quote,


    "We have taken it off the table as far as looking at our breakeven points and projecting what our sales will be for the next year or so."


    is one of the most important of the conf call. Unfortunately it is a bit nebulous, but one reasonable interpretation is that Axion expects sales due to BMW to begin, roughly, in late calendar year 2014 or in calendar year 2015.


    So, using the Maxwell--Continental --Peugeot [I've had to work around the SeekingAlpha truncations of word strings] example, how far in advance of sales did the Continental--Peugeot design win news come out? THAT is THE date we're all really looking forward to.
    26 Aug 2013, 12:26 PM Reply Like
  • DRich, ROTFLMAO !


    How about this? The previous metaphors ain't been workin'.


    Maybe a reversal of same will work?
    26 Aug 2013, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • VW: Does this mean we have to switch to "watching paint wet"?


    26 Aug 2013, 12:40 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor> Maxwell announced that Continental had selected the boost-cap for automotive systems in September 2009, about a year before Peugeot announced a design win for the system in October of 2010. So there was a good year between the de facto design win and the formal design win.



    Since I expect Axion's relationship with a BMW battery supplier to be more complex than the relationship between Maxwell and Continental, it wouldn't surprise me to see a longer lag between the de facto design win and the commencement of production.
    26 Aug 2013, 12:50 PM Reply Like
  • John, However the potential targeted customer end dates don't change. Could be that the supplier build assessment was not only in support of knowing the cost/timing to integrate carbon electrodes into an existing facility but it could have been supportive of firming up top level program timing.


    BMW would force decision points into the supplier negotiations to assure program timing or many lawyers would milk the parties from now to eternity. Different mission statements.
    26 Aug 2013, 01:15 PM Reply Like
  • Thx, JP.


    What I'm after, and I assume everyone else is too, is expected timeframes for huge announcements. I believe Granville just gave us a giant clue that can help us put together the s/s announcement puzzle---the rough start date for their expected sales with the BMW relationship. We've never had that before.


    With that in hand, just need to work backwards in time:


    3) Axion s/s sales start date, which = BMW's s/s production start date: Approx. YE calendar 2014.


    which follows _____ amount of time after:


    2) BMW's applicable s/s battery supplier announces their design win with BMW.


    which follows _____ amount of time after:


    1) Axion announces design win with an automobile OEM battery supplier (who supplies BMW).


    I may have left out a step or two, but the point is to arrive at an expected 1st announcement date that signals to the stock mkt that there's now a clear path--- the cascade of events is inevitable.


    Even without building in other lags, the 1 year lag between Maxwell's announced design win and Continental's suggests that Axion may make their similar announcement YE calendar 2013.
    26 Aug 2013, 01:18 PM Reply Like
  • ii, Just a guess, but I am assuming there would be packaging aspects to be worked out to simplify use in the production line especially if it is automated (much like using the right clip for a rifle).
    You would know much more about this than I, but it only makes sense that the battery builder wouldn't want to reconfigure machines or have to waste labor re-stacking plates to be able to use them. So my take on the TG comment is that they have worked this out.
    26 Aug 2013, 01:23 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed, You're right on the money. It's not just the assembly line. It's all the packaging, material flow, logistics, warehousing etc. The assembly process is just one part of a very complex system that has to be well thought out to assure QCD. As an example, in many programs I worked on the shipping packaging for the returnable loop(s) exceeded the cost of the assembly equipment. Also packaging needs to be optimized for the supplier location(s), various shipping routes and the end user assembly locations. Plus some customers require back-up packaging in case there is a break in the returnable loop and to support safety stock if required. Anyway, lot's of detail we don't discuss because it's not often applicable.
    26 Aug 2013, 01:37 PM Reply Like
  • It was interesting to me to see that there was no longer a research and development budget. I assume that was an indicator in the change of focus from creating a product to selling a product.
    I would also think that with the shift in focus, actual sales would start being announced.


    Is the budget for engineering assistance in configuring the product to a client's specific requirements considered under sales?
    26 Aug 2013, 08:12 AM Reply Like
  • GT


    It also explains the leaving of the tech guy that was widely discussed here.
    26 Aug 2013, 03:10 PM Reply Like
  • Third again?
    26 Aug 2013, 09:06 AM Reply Like
  • Wow, your ping must suck! Are you limping along on an old 300 baud modem? :-p


    In other news, AOL still has 3.5 MILLION dialup subscribers...
    26 Aug 2013, 10:44 AM Reply Like
  • I've often wondered whether hospitals and other medical facilities that require emergency backup electricity couldn't use a PC to enhance their current backup systems, which I believe rely solely on generators. But I've not seen this possibility mentioned. Thoughts anybody? --- Thanks.
    26 Aug 2013, 11:32 AM Reply Like
  • WiO, I am a retired RN. Most all hospitals use a very large diesel engine generator. It is tested frequently but rarely used. Hospitals would need batteries that would supply power for many hours. Probably not a PbC characteristic.
    Until hospitals install wind/solar units, I doubt they need or would buy any batteries.
    26 Aug 2013, 12:00 PM Reply Like
  • WiO, there is at least one hospital that has interest in the idea. They don't know about the Cube as its name, but they know of the idea. Interestingly the attraction is not as safety to backup since they have multiple generators.


    The great interest is in a cube (as an idea) that will allow them to pitch all the electronic gadgetry necessary to clean up the power from those backup generators. Seems the cost of backup generators and switching equipment is overshadowed by the electronics to protect life support equipment and clean up spikes, blips, and pops. I had no idea.


    If the PC can prove itself in usage by early adopters I expect hospitals might be a nice niche' market for us.
    26 Aug 2013, 12:07 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks LT and VW. --- VW, as I suspected, it's unlikely they would want to ditch their current backup generators, but might find a PC useful in making their systems more efficient.
    26 Aug 2013, 12:12 PM Reply Like
  • >LT ... I would think that a large hospital could get a benefit from using a PowerCube in a behind the meter application for peak shaving expensive rate times and provide EM power. It wouldn't do away with the diesel generators but could save on the monthly electric bill and extend their time of EM power. The same would be true with sport venues that are used often during high electric rate times in mixed applications like here in Dallas with the American Airline Center where it is primarily a basketball arena but hosts trade shows, conventions, concerts, the circus and other activities.


    I need to think this through to see if it actually makes sense or just is another mirage. First blush says it may be a descent idea.
    26 Aug 2013, 12:21 PM Reply Like
  • In cases where critical infrastructure facilities have high quality power backup systems, they'll typically use batteries for short duration power problems and shift to generators for long duration outages. The most common setup has a few minutes of battery backup because most outages are less than a minute long. If an outage continues for longer than a minute or two, the generators will kick in to keep power stable.


    In the data center market where Active Power is particularly strong their flywheel systems only provide 15 seconds of power while the generators are starting up.
    26 Aug 2013, 12:21 PM Reply Like
  • VW ... the clean power angle is an interesting one and perhaps a step beyond potential for use of a PC as stop-gap UPS to bridge loss of grid power and diesel genset startup.
    26 Aug 2013, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • >D-inv ... My county hospital, Parkland, runs it's Operating Room power through a conditioning system because a lot of these new high-tech machines don't like spikes & sags. I don't believe they run them through a battery UPS system, just cleaned grid power, but could. Might even be a little cheaper to install.
    26 Aug 2013, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • WiO, I suspect you're right, but I'm way over my head on this stuff. Our local hospital has two large CAT generators each capable of backing up the other for limited applications if one should fail.


    Consultants have opined that if cubes prove reliable smaller generators can be used in tandem with solar panels to charge the cube, and the cube used as backup power directly rather than cleaning up stand-by generator waves. Don't know what the consultants mean by the word, "cube" (he uses the word "bank") so I' m really speaking out of school. I'm really just sitting in as the "vounteer finance guy".


    Only been to a few meetings so I'm laying low. :>) Learning a new vocabulary makes everything challenging. Whatever the case, I would think our cube would be small potatoes. But one day maybe......
    26 Aug 2013, 12:54 PM Reply Like
  • John, What data are you looking at for "average power outage"?
    26 Aug 2013, 04:23 PM Reply Like
  • Valleywood,
    It's a reasonable concern. Most of our larger pieces of research equipment have their own booster systems to clean up the power we get from our campus power lines. We have also moved to natural gas generators for back-up power instead of diesel. But then again, we were using coal before that, so it was simpler to just switch directly to natural gas and skip diesel altogether.
    27 Aug 2013, 11:57 AM Reply Like
  • OT, but it warms my heart.


    Another possible charm to put on Axion's bracelet. Is this happening just in time? Are we going to ride this wave?


    Mebbe so.

    26 Aug 2013, 11:57 AM Reply Like
  • Thanks for the link VW.


    Own GE, like GE.


    26 Aug 2013, 12:15 PM Reply Like
  • Hospitals have more and more life-critical electronic systems. Maintaining voltage and keeping systems running while diesels get started can save the 15 or 30 seconds of downtime. There are plenty of other commercial buildings that this applies to as well.


    Another aspect is short power surges, such as when motors are started, can be powered from batteries. This means the generator can be smaller, or more significantly, does not have to be replaced with a larger one as demand increases. It's a good sales pitch: You can add some peak battery storage instead of replacing the entire generator to handle a short term peak situation. This is a small scale of what utilities may want from storage.
    26 Aug 2013, 12:47 PM Reply Like
  • I should have a new article up this afternoon. Friends who understand the way I think can get a mental preview from this fascinating video clip.



    Be sure to listen carefully to the sentences.
    26 Aug 2013, 02:47 PM Reply Like
  • >JP ... Seems CNBC took it down


    Must have been something less than Bullish. CNBC is really into pushing the Bullish side of things right now. A good signs things are getting worse.
    26 Aug 2013, 02:50 PM Reply Like
  • I just played it a minute ago.


    Give it another try and if it doesn't work type Musk Gargantuan battery factory into the search box on CNBC.
    26 Aug 2013, 02:54 PM Reply Like
  • I got it fine
    26 Aug 2013, 02:57 PM Reply Like
  • mee too
    26 Aug 2013, 03:04 PM Reply Like
  • Ah...the Minsky Moment for TSLA is finally upon us!


    Someone dare to take deep far out of the money puts on the stock? :)
    26 Aug 2013, 03:12 PM Reply Like
  • DRich: I just played it - a theme John has harped on upon in a couple if his articles stands out.


    26 Aug 2013, 03:19 PM Reply Like
  • thanks JP. Looking forward to the article after watching the video clip!!
    26 Aug 2013, 06:07 PM Reply Like
  • It's been out for a couple hours and was ultimately separated into two pieces.


    The lead-in material is here:



    The Tesla specific article is here:

    26 Aug 2013, 06:10 PM Reply Like
  • > ... Finally, I got to see it. On my other computer it seems locked into CNBC International edition and will not show me anything only on the American side. It won't change either. Grrrrr.


    Anyway, it's old news that most here have known since 2008 ... at least. Kinda like this NSA thingy that anyone that ways paying even a smiggin of attention would have known about in 2005. I guess it takes a celebrity to get Americas' attention.
    26 Aug 2013, 06:15 PM Reply Like
  • Maybe they will build them in a giga factory? ;-D


    Nissan Looks to Beat the Heat with New Leaf Battery Design

    26 Aug 2013, 03:07 PM Reply Like
  • Wonder if it's a giga factory? :-?


    Tesla, Samsung Near Agreement on Battery Supply Deal

    26 Aug 2013, 03:14 PM Reply Like
  • Samsung, like Panasonic, is in a desperate position when it comes to unused battery manufacturing plants. Panasonic made a small profit on its battery unit in the last quarter, but that's only because they took a $10 billion plant write-down and don't have to include depreciation in their cost of goods sold.


    If they had to depreciate the battery plants, they'd be losing $500 million to $1 billion a year.


    FWIW when I met with the Chairman's Global Strategy Team at Batteries 2012, Samsung was on the verge of abandoning automotive entirely because they couldn't make any money in the sector.
    26 Aug 2013, 03:35 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks John.


    Appreciate your information sharing which comes about as a result of your networking efforts.


    Hardly healthy business plans and I doubt they will work long term. I can see Toyota's comments to Panasonic at some point.
    26 Aug 2013, 03:54 PM Reply Like
  • "FWIW when I met with the Chairman's Global Strategy Team at Batteries 2012, Samsung was on the verge of abandoning automotive entirely because they couldn't make any money in the sector. "


    So do you think Tesla will be paying more for these batteries?
    Or does the previous write down cover it?
    26 Aug 2013, 03:55 PM Reply Like
  • As long as Tesla can get batteries from plants that have already been written off, it should be able to get batteries cheap because the producers won't include depreciation in their cost of sales. Once the supply of mothballed plants is absorbed, Tesla will have to pay full price if it wants manufacturers to expand capacity.
    26 Aug 2013, 04:24 PM Reply Like
  • JP has two articles out


    Tesla's Crushing Battery Supply Constraints


    This ones an instablog
    The Great Climate Change Fraud


    I haven't read them yet but:
    You seriously like starting arguments JP.


    Late note the Instablog should be read first. (According to JP's article it is a lead in.)
    26 Aug 2013, 03:47 PM Reply Like
  • Did you notice that Toyota is discounting the RAV4EV because it's not selling?

    26 Aug 2013, 04:27 PM Reply Like
  • let the games begin . . .
    26 Aug 2013, 04:49 PM Reply Like
  • John,


    "Did you notice that Toyota is discounting the RAV4EV because it's not selling?"


    Personally, I'm surprised you haven't already written an article on this John, as the main reason all Tesla shareholders should be scared. Think about it. Tesla got it right with the model S. They didn't go after buyers who were trying to save money (or the planet) by purchasing an electric car. They went after buyers who wanted to make a statement, and built a performance car that looks good, can do 0-60 in a few seconds, has lots of geewhiz technology, and can still qualify for things like tax breaks and HOV lanes. So they sell to business men who can wear them like their latest suit and can write them off as a business expense. It's a nice market.
    So what's Elon's next plan? He's going to make a high end electric SUV. So who's going to buy it? Well, probably the same people Toyota was hoping were going to buy the RAV4EV. But they aren't buying it. And why not, because SUVs are bought by "soccer moms" who need to move their families around. They don't care how fast the car accelerates. They care how many kids they can get it in, how much stuff they can shove in it, and whether it's a nice, safe ride. Toyota already makes that in a normal RAV4 or Highlander, whereas the RAV4EV costs $20,000 more, and can't (I believe) use Tesla's supercharger system, even though the battery and motor are supplied by Tesla. Rich business men will buy themselves an electric toy. Most of them aren't going to pay an extra $20,000 for a similar toy for their wives when they can't write any of it off as a business expense.
    So if Toyota can't sell a RAV4EV for an extra $20,000 how is Tesla going to sell their version of it, with a bigger battery pack, for even more? And don't tell me Elon is hoping for the price of the battery packs to come down, since he's looking to expand the number of distributors he has for cells for his current battery packs, not looking for new technologies that might be cheaper.
    As I see it, the RAV4EV just proves Tesla's electric SUV is dead on arrival before it is even made. IMHO
    28 Aug 2013, 11:23 PM Reply Like
  • I'm trying to avoid writing about Tesla these days unless there's something important to say that leads to inescapable conclusions.
    29 Aug 2013, 04:57 AM Reply Like


    Absolutely priceless!!
    26 Aug 2013, 05:04 PM Reply Like
  • The numbers for June 2013 show that the Model S, a luxury four-door electric car with a range of up to 500km on a single charge and a price tag of $70,000, is currently in greater demand than Jaguar, Land Rover, Porsche, Volvo, Fiat and a number of US brands including Buick, Cadillac and Lincoln.

    26 Aug 2013, 05:36 PM Reply Like
  • The article talks about demand in California, which essentially means the Bay Area, one of the wealthiest locales in the nation and home of Tesla with a population of technophiles. I should know - I see a Tesla on the road every other day. There is a second tech boom going on right now and home prices are already back to peak levels before the bust. I wouldn't take this as a sign of a greater trend though no doubt Tesla makes great cars. The problem is whether they can make a car for beyond the luxury market.


    People here drop over a million dollars for an average 3-4 bedroom 40 year old house in exchange for a shorter commute to work. I commute 45 minutes. I suppose it's not all bad, the inflated costs and salaries here allowed a guy my age to accumulate a boatload of Axion shares.
    26 Aug 2013, 05:46 PM Reply Like
  • Along those lines, I just saw my first Tesla, here in Dallas, today.
    26 Aug 2013, 05:54 PM Reply Like
  • I should mention that none of those other brands were that popular in the Bay Area even before Tesla. The young tech hipster crowd tend to go for a BMW or Lexus. The Model S is a bit higher end than all of them though.
    26 Aug 2013, 06:16 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks for the link OR,


    I was thinking to short TSLA myself until I saw this clandestine video from the beyond, now I'm thinking maybe I should go long, at least for a while. However, cocktail hour is approaching so I'll just talk it over with other minds, greater than mine.


    26 Aug 2013, 06:30 PM Reply Like
  • geo: I'm short TSLA, but I've capped my risk with 150 and 160 CALLS (long). Nothing happens badly to my trade (i.e., no risk of a margin call) if the stock balloons to 200 temporarily, which it just may.
    26 Aug 2013, 06:56 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks OR, much appreciated.


    I'm a pretty wimpy trader having been taught by my old school 'buy and hold' mother and father. Still trying to learn however.


    The video really brought me some good belly laughs, always healthy in my book.


    27 Aug 2013, 09:15 AM Reply Like
  • When videos about a single stock (like TSLA) go viral on youtube, it's probably an indication that ma' and pa' kettle are involved (in the stock) and Wall Street has taken notice.... and Wall Street doesn't have ma' and pa's welfare in mind!
    28 Aug 2013, 12:28 AM Reply Like
  • The Wiener Linien GmbH & Co. KG orders 4 further battery locomotives

    26 Aug 2013, 05:40 PM Reply Like
  • Ouch. 4 year lag from the first order to these additional orders. Then 1.5-2yrs lag from this order to delivery. Man, RR guys move fast. Not.


    "Wiener Linien’s originally planed to buy 2 additional battery locomotives, after the successful testing period of the first locomotive, which was bought in 2009. Therefore SCHALKE is very pleased that Wiener Linien now placed directly the order of 4 additional locomotives. All will be delivered during 2015."
    26 Aug 2013, 06:31 PM Reply Like
  • Mr. I, No doubt there will be a lag.


    What we don't know is how much testing they did on the batteries outside of the initial order. Also, remember, the NS999 is gen 2. So it has quite a bit of lessons learned applied already due to the first gen. prototype testing.
    26 Aug 2013, 07:15 PM Reply Like
  • The Military Connects Microgrids for a ‘Secure Cluster’ of Power Networks


    "Building economically feasible, grid-interactive microgrids is the next step in this process. We’re seeing projects around the world testing the ability of locally controlled energy systems to balance the grid at large, with grid giants like GE, ABB, Siemens, Alstom, Schneider Electric, Toshiba and Hitachi, startups like Blue Pillar, Viridity Energy, Powerit Solutions and Enbala, and technology firms such as Spirae, Integral Analytics and Power Analytics all taking different tacks on the challenge."

    26 Aug 2013, 07:28 PM Reply Like
  • What we now call "The Internet" was initially a military backed network as well if I recall. Sounds like we are watching the eNet being created this time.


    I know of a battery that would be very useful for level loading the nodes of such a thing.
    26 Aug 2013, 08:35 PM Reply Like
  • US Navy Signs Deal with Axion for Mini-Cube Solar Power


    Interesting that the Navy is working with Microgrids and Zero Energy Buildings. The next fiscal year is just around the corner. Time for new government contracts to be signed.


    Schneider Electric may have considered PbCs for crane use and be aware of their capabilities.
    27 Aug 2013, 08:29 AM Reply Like
  • Greentongue: You did notice the date on that? 2/14/12


    27 Aug 2013, 09:26 AM Reply Like
  • Yes I did. Plenty of time has passed for evaluating and making a decision.


    As for the "2/14" part, it was a first purchase and I suspect Vendor Approval took time.
    27 Aug 2013, 01:16 PM Reply Like
  • That's a bunch of opportunity.


    Look: America Is Only 39% Efficient

    26 Aug 2013, 07:34 PM Reply Like
  • 2nd attempt.


    So I wasted a few hours this afternoon avoiding my normal job looking for anything on where future Axion Power news could come from. Found nothing. But I did find something that was interesting to me (and maybe you).


    Here is a PowerPoint from Sep 2011 that mentions Axion and on page 20 discusses the plan for a small PowerCube project at the Niagara Falls State Park.
    This would match the time frame for the Viridity PowerCube project (Nov 2011) and Navy Yard (Jan 2012). It appears that this may have been a second part of a project that started in 2009.


    Also did you know there is an Axio Power?
    26 Aug 2013, 07:39 PM Reply Like
  • This past Friday, 23 August 2013, was a very, very sad day for the Railroad industry. A man I admire has died. Richard Jay Corman passed.


    Here is the notice in his hometown paper, The Lexington Herald-Leader



    And an excellent article from Fortune that gives a good feel for what kind of man he was.



    I learned of this via my Yahoo GreenGoat Group. The Railroad Industry in America has truly lost some its personality & style.
    26 Aug 2013, 08:59 PM Reply Like
  • Thank you for the above post and links Dave. What a remarkable person in every respect. The world has lost a great person.
    26 Aug 2013, 11:21 PM Reply Like
  • DRich, Thank you so much for sharing your feelings and some history concerning Richard Jay Corman. I followed his business for a few years as an outsider and was quite enamored with the updates concerning his heath in such a "family like" writing style for what seemed like a pretty substantial business. Now I have a heck of a lot more appreciation as to why I was witnessing something that is so uncommon in "big business" America.
    27 Aug 2013, 12:01 AM Reply Like
  • 08/26/2013: EOD stuff partially copied from instablog (up ~1 hour).
    # Trds: 80, MinTrSz: 100, MaxTrSz: 35000, Vol 530755, AvTrSz: 6634
    Min. Pr: 0.1287, Max Pr: 0.1390, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.1316
    # Buys, Shares: 35 194600, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.1333
    # Sells, Shares: 45 336155, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.1307
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 1:1.73 (36.7%), DlyShts 127656 (24.05%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 37.98%


    There was a 10K pre-market trade FINRA-reported daily short sales don't include. Adding that to the FINRA trade volume raises it from 520,755 to my total and would lower the short percentage from 24.51% to my 24.05%. If the shares are also added to the short sales, the short volume moves from 127,656 to 137,656 and the short percentage would be 25.94%.


    We keep injecting sub-$0.14 VWAPs into the 40-day window. This will eventually assure that even if we get a huge price rise on big news, the “financiers” will be getting huge amounts of sub-$0.12 (now) shares to dump into the market and prevent any substantial price rise near-term. The epithets I would apply to this financing deal and all involved in producing it knows no bounds.


    Week ending values:
    06/14: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.2315, x 85%: $0.1968 VWAP $0.2122
    06/21: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.2176, x 85%: $0.1850 VWAP $0.1751
    06/28: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1956, x 85%: $0.1663 VWAP $0.1474
    07/05: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1805, x 85%: $0.1534 VWAP $0.1518
    07/12: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1657, x 85%: $0.1408 VWAP $0.1403
    07/19: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1539, x 85%: $0.1309 VWAP $0.1543
    07/26: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1524, x 85%: $0.1295 VWAP $0.1555
    08/02: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1524, x 85%: $0.1295 VWAP $0.1733
    08/05: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1524, x 85%: $0.1295 VWAP $0.1410
    08/16: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1447, x 85%: $0.1230 VWAP $0.1348
    08/23: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1423, x 85%: $0.1210 VWAP $0.1337


    Vol, in thousands, for above weeks: 4,356, 1,934, 3910, 1,217, 2902, 5041, 2731, 3889, 6920, 6,522.


    This week's daily estimated values (older dailys in prior EOD posts) for next share issue:
    08/26: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1415, x 85%: $0.1203


    Vol, in K, for above days: 530.76.


    The price spread opened up a bit from yesterday's $0.0089 and volume almost doubled. Daily shorts were about 3.6 times yesterday's and the daily short percentage moved back into more normal range (above all the averages and just above the long-term trend line and the descending short-term trend line I added a while back). This fits with my mention yesterday that “... continues to move up towards normal after hitting an extreme low. If it acts as before, in a couple days or so it ought to intersect a falling trend line I added a while back. Looks like it would be around the 20% area ...”. I have also mentioned in the past that this situation is needed for normal price and market activity. Now, let's see what happens over the next few days.


    Maybe these are the signs that a move is finally arriving, as I have been suggesting since I thought we would go flat for a while and then get a move. Related to this, I posted a comment about average trade size yesterday that also suggests a move is in the works. The 10-day average continues to move up, suggesting a change in behavior is nigh – today's 10-day average is up to 7,430, just 110 less than the maximum I noted in the comment.


    Yesterday I said, in part, regarding buy percentage, “This will be visible when the buy percentage gets back into the 35%+ range consistently enough to move the near-term averages back towards the longer-term averages ...”. We have a trend going that makes this seem quite possible. Here's a few days' percentages of “buys”: 44.0%, 42.1%, 22.3%, 30.6%, 28.0% and 36.7% today. It's started moving the right way.


    Regarding the inflection point calculations, my “jaundiced eye” caveat still applies.


    Today reverses the attempt at more positive behavior seen yesterday, when I noted the “lumpiness” of the readings. The one-day changes in the original are mostly mildly more negative and the changes over five days a little more so. The rate of change over five days also weakened.


    Yesterday I said of the newer version one-day readings “... odds look pretty good that all six periods could show strengthening”. They gave up yesterday's mild strengthening and now show mild weakening. The possibility of a positive trend remains since the weakness is not (yet?) strong. The changes over five days show a similar weakening, as do the rates of change.


    Details of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” and inflection points omitted here.


    27 Aug 2013, 05:53 AM Reply Like
  • Further TG comment “we have proven… a product can be manufactured offsite by a third-party supplier” and my related comments


    Thank you for various comments returned.


    Years ago I was approached by a bright MIT grad who had patented a very promising sensor technology


    It had potential application in the auto industry and the inventor had a specific application in mind


    We got the attention of GM Delphi among others in the big 3 with a prototype. We allowed a few players under strict NDA to test the prototypes. Everyone was impressed


    We were then introduced to various tier 1 suppliers


    While all could see the potential - and one even offered a draft license agreement - the terms were so one sided as to risk potential developments in other fields while tying up all the inventors limited resources for a number of years


    The tier 1's were not prepared to invest millions of dollars and several years of engineering and testing without broad legal protection and full commitment to a stream of potential revenue


    Had we been able to take the technology to a stage where we were efficiently producing it in volumes this would have placed us in a far stronger negotiating position


    There were several issues but the key issue was not having the technology packaged so it could be simply substituted in the vehicle part of interest.


    Moreover if we had the product readily packaged for a variety of applications we would have been in a strong position to develop cash flow from the “lowest hanging fruit” from a broad range of manufacturers for other opportunities where the technology was a fit


    This would have given us the time and resources to wait out the Tier 1’s


    Interestingly this is more or less the direction the inventor has taken though his limited resources have continued to hold him back from the real potential of what he has. Anyone who has dealt with protective inventors will know what I am talking about


    Now with the defined plans and realities of AXPW internal workings you can see why I am excited about “a product can be manufactured offsite by a third-party supplier”


    So what does this mean for AXPW? First there is a plan and a vision - and it is a good one. Two, I feel there is a very strong probability that agreements of significance will be executed with large players within one year - and that this is almost a certainty within 2 years


    Very important and significant to efficiently monetizing PbC technology and our the appreciation of our share interests
    27 Aug 2013, 07:15 AM Reply Like
  • I had commented a while back on the possibility that shorting had stopped and maybe even some covering was going on. This based on a couple of scenarios we've been surmising off and on about how the "financiers" may (mis)behave.



    The small, ~12K, increase may be just normal T+3 settlement effects.


    I think we are "flat" ATM.


    27 Aug 2013, 07:28 AM Reply Like
  • significant. result of positive Q or someone knowing something we don't...
    27 Aug 2013, 08:29 AM Reply Like
  • I may be biased here, but anything not known by this group is probably inside information or price manipulation. I suspect some of the sleuthing is more than Axion or some of its customers would like.
    27 Aug 2013, 09:54 AM Reply Like
  • Altair Nanotechnologies Inc. (ALTI) may be the closest competitor that Axion has. It offers batteries with the ability to quick-charge.
    As such, I think it behooves us to keep a close eye on their filings and progress. Here is a link to their Q2 2013 Earnings Call transcript from August 9, 2013.


    They have built a wind farm ESS in Hawaii.


    Here is a quote from the transcipt that sounds very familiar:


    "We continue to have various discussions with the transportation and industrial customers in the U.S. Europe and Asia, who are interested in using our battery systems in a variety of applications, where the high-power attributes of our battery are a key consideration. Several customers are now testing our application kits, modules and PowerRack systems for various commercial applications. We are continuing to make good progress on that front and we hope to have some good news for you in the future there."
    27 Aug 2013, 10:04 AM Reply Like
  • >D Lane, thanks for posting. --- I think this all bodes well for Axion. As Altair initiates discussions and sales presentations with their potential buyers, it would seem many of these buyers would then do some "comparison shopping", and the PbC is going to look awfully good to some of these folks.


    Literally anything that gets buyers' attention is going to be helpful to Axion, and our competitors may very well turn out to be our best allies. The size of the pie is enormous, and Axion should do extremely well with even a relatively tiny percentage of that pie.
    27 Aug 2013, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • Microgrids: Ten Clean Technologies Needed to Win the Next Naval War
    Axion Inside?


    Axion is perfect for microgrids and the Navy has already been testing them. Since the Navy has already purchased some, they are an approved vendor.
    27 Aug 2013, 10:45 AM Reply Like
  • dimca,


    I keep re-visiting your post above re: a management plan. No matter how I approach your topic I have to agree with your conclusion. As a long-term cookie, the "third party remark" is rather powerfully flavored. Stefan quoted from the transcript Q&A session re: progress with BMW. As iindelco suggested, bi-weekly + bonus meetings are more than casual exploration. Logic almost demands these meetings are of very hardened concrete variety for business plan development.


    Also included was the offhand compound inclusion of "another supplier" which stridently shrieks proposal developments negotiation. I cannot discern if the "supplier" is included in the bi-weekly + meetings ; I hope that is the case, but it may be too early for that yet.


    Unless we are being included as a planned battery manufacturer, it would be better if a BMW trusted supplier was meeting with Beemer and we were meeting with Trusted Guy. It would suit me if we let Trusty carry the big briefcase to BMW whilst we carry a small one to Trusty. So unless we are being included as a primary supplier to Beemer, being excused from Beemer meetings seems to me to be a very good thing. Would indicate we have an agreement in principle with Trusty (+ another?) and that our business plan was being worked for carbon electrode production - - - by them or by us. Either way would be good.


    In my advanced years I seem to recall DRich posted a similar argument yesterday, but it has disappeared. Or my functioning brain cells have been excessively exposed to Happy Hour. Whatever the case, in this particular instance, where direct communication with Beemer is concerned, "Silence is Golden."
    27 Aug 2013, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • These are the "dots" I'm connecting. You may find them interesting.
    27 Aug 2013, 11:24 AM Reply Like
  • This reminds me of the time when the US government would see a promising new technology and pay to develop and purchase systems that no consumer could possibly afford. Microprocessors, internet, jet engines, GPS... They were willing and able to pay a premium to get an edge. Commercial applications would follow. Now we're skipping the middle part, including abandoning technology dead-ends, and going straight to subsidize the consumer.
    27 Aug 2013, 01:41 PM Reply Like
  • OT,


    I tinker in an issue < $5 . Has a 90-day volume of 21K.


    Anybody here able to slip under that bar?


    Talk about thin !


    It. Sadly, not I . :>)
    27 Aug 2013, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • That kind of stock is the financial equivalent of a roach motel.


    Investors check in but they don't check out.



    Until 2010, Axion was in that class, albeit at a higher volume level.
    27 Aug 2013, 11:38 AM Reply Like
  • JP, I suspect you're right. Nevertheless, my arrogance sometimes grabs me by the throat. Sometimes I just have to prove to myself that I'm right and damn the odds.


    Never worked yet, but to every rule . . . . . .
    27 Aug 2013, 11:42 AM Reply Like
  • VW
    I'm Not even close
    A tiny bit under 180K for 90 days
    Borealis Exploration Limited (BOREF)


    (It has some subsidiaries that may not trade in 90 days)
    One subsidiarey is WheelTug It was on Squawk box recently
    However I bought around $2 probably in 2010 and it was $12 today.
    27 Aug 2013, 09:00 PM Reply Like
  • froggey, I'm the proud owner of Sharps Compliance (SMED).


    They do the pizza delivery version of needle disposal. Sure, they made money years ago, but since the crash they decided, "To hell with this money-making business. Let's lose some !" Since then they've been successful losers.


    As I tell my wife who follows a disciplined investing approach, "Any fool can make money buying great companies at discount prices. I wanna make money owning crappy ones. "


    Anyway, for $250 I can keep my eye on it. I've been investing for over forty years now and not one single time have I EVER kept tabs on my "watch list". Not once. But if I have $100 in the kitty I patrol like a hawk. I've made just about enuff money on the occasional winner to cover my losses on the many garbage skows I've sailed on.


    What's really kewel about this however is the low volume. Kinda like Berkshire. Not completely. Just sorta.
    28 Aug 2013, 09:59 AM Reply Like
  • You're an evil man VW, but it's amazing how deals that we thought were on their last legs can come back to life. I had a project in the late-90s that went to a dime on low volume and I ended up stuffing the stock certificate in a drawer and forgetting about it. Six years later I was cleaning out that drawer and decided to see if Hyperdynamics (HYD) was still trading anywhere. I learned that the company had given up on the Internet business, gone into the oil and gas business and the stock I'd written off as a total loss when the price hit $0.10 was trading for $5. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than smart.
    28 Aug 2013, 10:06 AM Reply Like
  • Somehow I just can't see TG as a wildcatter.


    But he could save on diesel if he decided to change focus and move in that direction. And he's already got PIPE.
    28 Aug 2013, 10:24 AM Reply Like
  • JP,


    A long time ago I bought an outfit named Chico's down your way. They sold Mexican art (???) and candles. All kinds of candles. I bought $500 in shares + - just for fun. Chico's was a dog.


    One of the owners took over and started selling "travel pants" for women. It went to about $2,500 and I bailed. Never looked back. Then one day years later a Chico's store opened in Atlanta and SWMBO loved the place. I missed out on a bleeping fortune all because I didn't hang on to a few hundred bucks to ensure I was paying attention. I jumped back in and did nicely but not enuff to change our life. Since then I have always held a few hundred bucks in dogs I find interesting. Often have had to sell them to my broker for a penny when they go broke, but you never know.


    The irony is that SWMBO bought $1,000 of Exxon at about the same time (1980 - '85 maybe?) and put it in a drip. Exon was paying 10% or thereabouts back then. (remember 16% CDs?) She added maybe $1,500 as the years rolled by and one day she decided to buy a Camry. She sold her Exxon, paid cash for the Camry, paid the taxes, and still had $10,000 to boot. Silly woman ! What does she know about investing anyway?


    I recall Peter Lynch wrote the book, "One Up on Wall Street" and he preached the importance of listening to wives. It's still the best investing book ever written. And I always listen to SWMBO.


    Or face the lash.
    28 Aug 2013, 10:39 AM Reply Like
  • VW -


    My dad has a story like that ... he bought Telefone de Mexico for something like .15 while living in Tuscon in the 70s and forgot about it ... turned out quite well.
    28 Aug 2013, 11:01 AM Reply Like
  • Yeah, I got one of those two -- sorta, kinda. a stock that, no matter how hard I tried, I could not get rid of it -- so I finally gave up trying . . .
    28 Aug 2013, 02:51 PM Reply Like
  • gt, I think you're at the right cocktail party.


    Maybe we're selecting different drinks, but you're at the same party as I anyway.


    Let's hope a slinky dress covering legs-up-to-here finds us attractive.


    27 Aug 2013, 11:38 AM Reply Like
  • A short story about NS and Charles Moorman I was told while in Chattanooga this past week.


    I guess Charles was touring some of the shop yards and the museum yards asking about all the steam loco's laying around. He told the yard he wanted at least one, if not a few from all over to get back on actual track and not just the museum lines. He mentioned that today's youth has no idea where trains originated and would appreciate seeing and hearing the old steam coming down the line.


    The museum has many loco's laying around but no money to rebuild. I was informed that after being told the cost was almost 2 million each he "pulled out the checkbook and said get it done".


    It is with that conviction and dedication to trains, his career and legacy I know he will get the NS999 going.
    27 Aug 2013, 12:21 PM Reply Like
  • Awol Engineer: Great story and a lift to spirits today!


    Thanks for taking the time to share!


    27 Aug 2013, 12:31 PM Reply Like
  • I guess NS is going with steam, then. ;^) Back to the future.
    27 Aug 2013, 01:02 PM Reply Like
  • Any kid who watches the show "Hell on Wheels" knows about steam trains and the early days of the railroad.
    27 Aug 2013, 01:20 PM Reply Like
  • A bunch of PowerCubes could probably help a lot with this heatwave here in the Midwest this week. My APC UPS has already had to go on twice this morning already, for a total of almost 3 minutes, to correct for undervoltage. And I have it on the most forgiving setting. And it's not even the hottest part of the day yet.
    27 Aug 2013, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • OT Bath hydro article.


    The Inside Story Of The World’s Biggest ‘Battery’ And The Future Of Renewable Energy

    27 Aug 2013, 01:05 PM Reply Like
  • WSJ article on wireless charging for buses. It's short but mentions six different projects underway. Below the link is a cut/paste of short descriptions of five of the projects. You have to expect that these will go to lithium-ion although eventually, as operators get more familiar with the technology they might decide that the extremely rapid charge acceptance of the PbC is critically important for minimizing total system costs.



    "– Utah State University has developed a wirelessly powered electric bus that picks up power from under the pavement, with transfer capacity of 25 kilowatts at 90% efficiency, according to the developers. Its spin-off firm WAVE Inc. has partnered with China’s BYD Inc. to provide electric buses to cities in California and Utah.


    – ABB Ltd.ABBN.VX -2.01%, the Swiss engineering group, is testing a city-to-airport service in Geneva with a bus that charges in 15-second bursts along its route, using a charging station that connects to the top of the vehicle.


    – South Carolina-based Proterra, Inc. also touts electric buses that connect to a high-power charger above the vehicle, with charging times from five to 10 minutes. It has signed deals with transit systems of nine cities across the U.S.


    – Bombardier Inc.BBD.B.T -1.93% is set to provide its own opportunity-charging wireless electric buses to the German city of Mannheim next year. The buses receive their power supply from underground chargers.


    Qualcomm Inc.QCOM -1.23%, on the other hand, is working with Mercedes-Benz and Nissan Motors Co. Ltd. to develop wirelessly-charging cars, with plans for dynamic charging in the future. Siemens AGSIE.XE -1.21% and BMW AGBMW.XE -3.21% have partnered for a similar project."
    27 Aug 2013, 01:30 PM Reply Like
  • I've got a Nokia Lumia 920 phone which has wireless charging. It's nice to have but the charge time is slower than plug in, and it makes the phone heavier. Magnetic coiling has to be added, made out of copper I believe.


    I'm no expert but I infer from this that making a cost efficient system will be challenging because of the metals required, and at best only for a closed loop system like buses.
    27 Aug 2013, 01:49 PM Reply Like
  • I live one hour from the Ludington, MI pump storage facility- a totally man-made facility on Lake MI. Wind generators take advantage of this system. There is no such thing as a wind generator being off-grid because of no demand. The facility is 30 years old. A boon for the wind energy companies.
    I can't imagine a facility like being built in the present economic environment. Electricity rates would have to increase and/or taxes. Not going to happen. Only short term thinking happens today.
    27 Aug 2013, 01:38 PM Reply Like
  • Gezeke, I agree with your comments concerning short term thinking. Lots of nuclear plants at risk in the US due to short term favorable natural gas prices.
    27 Aug 2013, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • I enjoy the lively exchanges going on here on Axion's exciting prospects, but if I may take a critical eye, the speculation about which PbC products will garner how much sales at what margins with which customers and at what timing, involve an awful lot variables. Trying to estimate future sales in any particular application is too uncertain for my blood. Buffett and Munger have said, and I paraphrase, that it's much better to make certain you are roughly right than to be precisely wrong.


    In that vein I ask myself what could go wrong with these batteries? The technology has already proven itself to be hugely advantageous in DCA, cycle life, self equalizing strings, etc. Cost is far superior to Li-ion per watt. So what could go wrong?


    How about durability? The 2011 white paper publishing the comparative test results that were so favorable for PbC vs AGM admits that the lab simulations were accelerated and thus not as demanding as the real world. Could this be an Achilles heel? Could PbC durability in trucks, locomotives, automotive applications operating at partial states of charge prove to be poorer than believed? The positive electrode is still lead-acid and therefore I presume subject to the issues over time that plague lead-acid technology but were sidestepped on the carbon electrode side.


    So I do hope the engineers/chemists in this crowd will weigh in with any information about Axion's PbC batteries in this most critical area.
    27 Aug 2013, 02:49 PM Reply Like
  • RA: "Could PbC durability in trucks, locomotives, automotive applications operating at partial states of charge prove to be poorer than believed?"


    Recall that John P has mentioned that batteries from ePower have been pulled and dissembled and allowed Axion to extend the warranty because they have held up so well.


    Of course, that's with that particular usage profile and others still might hold surprises.


    In another lifetime test the batteries were completely(?) discharged and recharged at Axion's facility for 2000 cycles. They stopped there because no one was interested after that,


    So it seems that durability will not be an issue when they are properly managed.


    27 Aug 2013, 03:12 PM Reply Like
  • Durability, vibration resistance and a host of other factors are critical issues in both automotive and rail. As near as I can tell the primary purpose of battery testing in automotive is to force failure as quickly as possible so that automakers don't waste money on an unacceptable product. I know that ePower spent several months trying to force battery failures before deciding that the PbC could withstand any torture they could throw at it. With relationships still standing after four years I think we have a pretty clear indication that durability isn't an issue with Axion's principal target customers.


    That being said your observation about the positive electrode becoming a problem was correct. We got such long lives out of the negatives that our failure problems were all appearing on the positive plates. So the research team dove in and found solutions to positive electrode problems that most battery manufacturers don't recognize as problems because their products don't last long enough for the problems to surface.
    27 Aug 2013, 03:26 PM Reply Like
  • RA, I can't speak for rail and ePower but automotive testing would impart variables such as vibration and shock into the test plans. This would complement long term durability testing in various climates/conditions. The test plans would be developed by the vehicle launch team supported by internal experts on battery technology along with the suppliers for the component/system they were looking to validate. Since the auto companies have utilized LAB's for years they would most likely start with the test plans for AGM batteries and adjust from there. These test plans would also be augmented with lessons learned from their many years of field data.


    Here's a link concerning APQP which is the formal launch plan utilized by North American automotive concerns and is pretty close to what European and Japanese companies do for vehicle launches. Each company utilizes different documents and terms but all the plans can be found in the cereal isle.



    Based on what I've heard concerning the length of time BMW has been working with Axion and where they are in the process, I'd expect they have been through the process. Since they are still working with Axion they have passed or have a high level of confidence that any observed nonconformances can be resolved via existing action plans.
    27 Aug 2013, 04:41 PM Reply Like
  • RA,


    "Cost is far superior to Li-ion per watt."


    What is your research showing how they compare?
    27 Aug 2013, 05:13 PM Reply Like
  • I may not have been technically accurate on comparing cost. Maybe somebody else knows precise figures? Just from a consumer standpoint, though, a replacement Li-ion drive battery for a Prius, for example, runs around $2500. That's just for hybrid 1.0 performance.


    With Axion's PbC in a BMW or whatever make, the battery will only add ~$350 to the cost of the car, or to replace it, and that's for much more frequent 2.0 stop/start events and therefore much better potential fuel economy than the 1.0 performance (in a $2500 battery!).
    27 Aug 2013, 05:30 PM Reply Like
  • Unless I'm missing something, comparing the $2500 battery in a Prius to a $350 PbC for stop-start is comparing apples to oranges. The Prius has regenerative braking and saves much more on fuel than a micro-hybrid with stop-start only.
    27 Aug 2013, 07:55 PM Reply Like
  • RA
    The hybrid Prius does not use Li Ion. it uses NIMH.
    The Plug in Prius does use Li Ion but It is far larger and Likely multiples of that in cost.


    While PbC might (but probably won't) be used for a full hybrid.
    As it is larger and heavier.
    The $350 is for a large truck type battery. Which not close to the energy in the Prius battery. (PbC of this size has much less energy)


    This probably is not a useful area of exploration and even if it wasn't, I'm not the one to make such guesses.
    27 Aug 2013, 09:30 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks HTL! These are good news.


    Just to play devil's advocate though, how many months of usage and of sitting around at less than full charge had the batteries in the ePower example and 2000-cycle example experienced? Is it conclusive if it's just several months rather than several years? I am wondering not just about the cycling but about much longer rest times between cycles than the lab tests.
    27 Aug 2013, 11:08 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks John! It is very assuring to get this information. Yes four years (with BMW?) looks great, especially with TG on the last call indicating they still have frequent biweekly meetings with BMW. I am eager for the good news on this front which seems very, very likely one day.


    Again playing devil's advocate just to try to foresee any ugly surprises, if the positive plates now involve some proprietary measures, doesn't that contradict the idea expressed before by Axion that the only difference between the PbC and conventional lead acid is the negative electrode? They've touted that fact in stating that any battery maker could just drop in the Axion lead carbon electrode in a battery in which every other part was conventional and off the shelf. Now if the positive electrode has been modified for greater durability it seems that's no longer true.
    27 Aug 2013, 11:21 PM Reply Like
  • R.A: Details like sitting around ... are beyond my knowledge.


    28 Aug 2013, 04:58 AM Reply Like
  • R.A. According to the patent filings, improvements were also made in some of the ... collectors(?), grids, and coatings (diamond IIRC). I recall one improvement from just turning the grid into, effectively, a 3D component instead of 2D, by giving it a "ridge" in the lattice runners (I don't know the technical names of that stuff).


    IIRC, there's a slightly weaker acid mixture in the electrolyte, but it's been a long time since I think I read that, so could be off.


    28 Aug 2013, 05:03 AM Reply Like
  • RA,
    At the annual meeting last year I asked this very question. From a scientific standpoint, what might go wrong, what concerns you, what are the questions/criticisms of other scientists with a background in battery technology?
    Vani paused for what seemed an eternity, and then said he couldn't think of an answer. The best he could come up with was the difficulty that exists in trying to educate people already in the field about the advantages of adopting the PbC.
    Later, I asked the same question of their chief researcher. His first response was that he wondered, when I asked Vani, how he would have responded. Ultimately he said the same thing----he could not come up with an answer.
    28 Aug 2013, 02:56 PM Reply Like
  • I've spent significant time with both Enders Dickenson and Howard Schmidt in the last year and they're both comfortable that the technical hurdles have been overcome. Now it's simply a matter of educating skeptical battery users who "know" that nobody can get thousands of cycles out of a lead acid battery and nobody can build a lead acid battery that takes less than 10 hours to charge.


    Over a century ago Edison said "Just as soon as a man gets working on the secondary battery it brings out his latent capacity for lying." Since step-change improvements in battery technology like the PbC are once in a lifetime events, it takes a lot of testing to prove that fact to the skeptics. It gets even worse when their initial results confirm your claims because then they start thinking they must have missed something.
    28 Aug 2013, 03:20 PM Reply Like
  • Along this note, Axion has a knack for producing high quality white papers such as the SAE papers and the S/S paper. Given their ability in this area and their new focus on PCs and utilities, I hope they have produced or are in the process of producing a white paper on the advantages of the PC for all the different markets that it could capture as a part of a Utility or a behind the meter application.


    The PC at New Castle has been running for close to two years, so hopefully there will soon be enough data.


    IMHO, it would assist in their marketing efforts.
    28 Aug 2013, 03:58 PM Reply Like
  • Automotive certification. Far harder and much longer duration.


    Tianjin Automotive Test Center certifies PowerGenix NiZn batteries for stop-start systems


    "PowerGenix recently announced an innovation contract with PSA Peugeot in Europe, and its batteries are currently being tested by several major automotive OEMs globally for use with stop-start systems"

    27 Aug 2013, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • Would it be fair to ask whether Chinese Automotive Certification takes longer than a Chinese Fire Drill?
    27 Aug 2013, 03:00 PM Reply Like
  • Curious question ... will PowerGenix batteries be in Peugot cars before PbC is publicly in any car?
    27 Aug 2013, 03:28 PM Reply Like
  • John, I've seen automakers that have been nurturing their Chinese partners for well over a decade still indicate their products are not ready for export to Europe or the US. Haven't followed this closely of late but I'd guess they have to be there or at least close. Maybe.


    As noted PSA Peugeot will do their own testing. I trust they will not follow the "Chinese Fire Drill" validation plan. ;-p
    DRich, different expectations and market liabilities.
    27 Aug 2013, 03:39 PM Reply Like
  • Sounds like PowerGenix should be added to the short-list of high power batteries that bears watching.
    27 Aug 2013, 04:47 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan, I'd expect PowerGenix has a ton of testing yet before they will be considered for production in salable vehicles. As to who gets in first if at all. No assurances either make it but we should know if Axion is going to be included in a vehicle program long before PowerGenix knows if they could support the expectations required in a vehicle program. Well, unless I'm wrong and they have been somehow testing PowerGenix batteries for years.
    27 Aug 2013, 04:49 PM Reply Like
  • JP: The real concern about the Chinese Fire Drill is not the length of time it takes, but the fact that they set fire to the building as part of the test.
    27 Aug 2013, 08:47 PM Reply Like
  • You also have to keep in mind that Axion is targeting a top end vehicle. This may not be true of other battery companies. The expectations for low end cars are not as high.
    27 Aug 2013, 08:51 PM Reply Like
  • >iindelco ... Certification with just months of testing? and came out with a 6 years life expectancy ... I'm guessing ... certified?


    On the other hand, Axion's 4 or 5 years of enduring testing can be summed up as a matter of months also. Saying "Years" just makes it sound like longer.
    27 Aug 2013, 03:02 PM Reply Like
  • For those of us that are older.




    Begin by standing on a comfortable surface, where you have plenty of room on each side.


    With a 5-lb potato bag in each hand, extend your arms straight out from your sides. Hold them there as long
    as you can. Try to reach a full minute, and then relax.


    Each day you'll find that you can hold this position for just a bit longer.


    After a couple of weeks, move up to 10-lb potato bags.


    Then try 50-lb potato bags, and then eventually, try to get to where you can lift a 100-lb potato bag in each
    hand and hold your arms straight for more than a full minute. (I'm at this level.)


    After you feel confident at that level, put a potato in each bag.
    27 Aug 2013, 03:07 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed: LoL! The punch line was great! :-))


    27 Aug 2013, 03:19 PM Reply Like
  • HTL,
    I can't take credit. This was forwarded by my mother from some retired military friends.
    27 Aug 2013, 03:34 PM Reply Like
  • You got me with.."I'm at this level". Thank you for the laugh.


    27 Aug 2013, 06:57 PM Reply Like
  • Late to the party but still chuckling.
    27 Aug 2013, 09:37 PM Reply Like
  • Another brick in the wall --


    "ePower spent several months trying to force battery failures before deciding that the PbC could withstand any torture they could throw at it. With relationships still standing after four years I think we have a pretty clear indication that durability isn't an issue with Axion's principal target customers"


    Thanks JP


    What thoughts have you on Altair as a competitor for PbC?


    I think we spend far too much time on vehicle possibilities. As management are doing...let's focus on the low hanging fruit. There are company makers in ePower - locomotive and the power cubes - especially ePower.


    We have low overhead and can control cost ramp up to sales as these others areas develop. All can lead to a bottom line and cash flow


    In turn this leads to time and the capacity to be patient


    Now if we could just get rid of those PIPER bast...ds
    27 Aug 2013, 05:48 PM Reply Like
  • Altair's lithium titanate chemistry has extraordinary charge acceptance, and a price to match. So does Toshiba's ScIB. The numbers I'm hearing are still in the four digit range per kWh. Lithium-titanate will probably be a winner when size and weight are mission critical and money is no object, but there are very few application niches that fit that description. I wouldn't touch Altair's stock because control now rests in China and they don't have a long history of treating US stockholders honorably once they're firmly in the drivers seat.
    27 Aug 2013, 05:52 PM Reply Like
  • OT: For those of you that may be interested in Cytomedix, Jason Napodano started covering another regenerative medicine company that I found interesting:

    27 Aug 2013, 07:52 PM Reply Like
  • Essentially this is ePower.


    BAE Systems’ HybriDrive HDS300 technology to power new articulated buses in San Jose

    Company website


    The series design is optimized for city bus duty cycles that typically have low average speeds and frequent stops. In this type of environment, series provides better bus fuel economy and emission reductions than a parallel solution. Our HybriDrive® Series solution for hybrid buses also offers the only true path to an all Electric Vehicle (EV).

    27 Aug 2013, 07:57 PM Reply Like
  • It looks like the HybriDrive is a battery dominant system like the GM Volt and Fisker Karma because it can run in engine off mode.


    The ePower drivetrain is engine dominant and it won't run on battery power alone.


    The big difference is that all power flows through the batteries in a battery dominant system, while the batteries only add power when needed in an engine dominant system.
    27 Aug 2013, 08:12 PM Reply Like
  • 08/27/2013: EOD stuff partially copied from instablog (up already).
    # Trds: 73, MinTrSz: 300, MaxTrSz: 30000, Vol 443365, AvTrSz: 6073
    Min. Pr: 0.1287, Max Pr: 0.1351, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.1305
    # Buys, Shares: 12 54666, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.1331
    # Sells, Shares: 61 388699, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.1301
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 1:7.11 (12.3% “buys”), DlyShts 27366 (6.17%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 7.04%


    Maximum share issue price (for now) is $0.1193 and will continue lower.


    The price spread narrowed to $0.0064 from yesterday's $0.0103 as volume dropped 16.47%. Buy percentage was looking good through 11:21. We had a positive reading. Subsequent to that point the sells were 93.2% of all trades and 96.16% of volume.


    We got back near the 8/15 low of $0.1250, which had a VWAP of $0.1309. Today we got a late-day weakness low price only 37/100ths higher and a VWAP of $0.1304. Notice the different behavior coming off such lows with and without the “financiers” in our market. Without them, price essentially flattens out after the rebound off the bottom to a near-term higher price and then a trend change appears after a (short?) while.


    Daily short sales percentage may be entering its sideways move for a few cycles. Low and high percentages may tend to converge. Then a break to a high level will likely come. Duration is only a guess – a week maximum? Normally it would be associated with a small rise in price. In current circumstances, it may not be so associated.


    10-day average trade size continues to climb, which, if the financing deal hasn't scuttled its effects, should be predicting a price move. I'm hoping that the action today is not the start of that move already, but there's no way to tell in this environment. The low volume gives some hope that today was just more consolidation.


    Week ending values:
    06/14: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.2315, x 85%: $0.1968 VWAP $0.2122
    06/21: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.2176, x 85%: $0.1850 VWAP $0.1751
    06/28: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1956, x 85%: $0.1663 VWAP $0.1474
    07/05: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1805, x 85%: $0.1534 VWAP $0.1518
    07/12: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1657, x 85%: $0.1408 VWAP $0.1403
    07/19: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1539, x 85%: $0.1309 VWAP $0.1543
    07/26: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1524, x 85%: $0.1295 VWAP $0.1555
    08/02: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1524, x 85%: $0.1295 VWAP $0.1733
    08/05: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1524, x 85%: $0.1295 VWAP $0.1410
    08/16: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1447, x 85%: $0.1230 VWAP $0.1348
    08/23: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1423, x 85%: $0.1210 VWAP $0.1337


    Vol, in thousands, for above weeks: 4,356, 1,934, 3910, 1,217, 2902, 5041, 2731, 3889, 6920, 6,522.


    This week's daily estimated values (older dailys in prior EOD posts) for next share issue:
    08/26: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1415, x 85%: $0.1203
    08/27: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1404, x 85%: $0.1193


    Vol, in K, for above days: 530.76, 443.37.


    Yesterday I said, regarding getting buy percentage back in range, “... We have a trend going that makes this seem quite possible. Here's a few days' percentages of “buys”: 44.0%, 42.1%, 22.3%, 30.6%, 28.0% and 36.7% today. It's started moving the right way”. Today is trying to break the trend. It's certain we don't yet have the consistency I am looking for.


    Regarding the inflection point calculations, my “jaundiced eye” caveat still applies.


    The original experimental inflection point calculation one-day changes continued the weakening seen yesterday. The five day is mixed in both short and long periods, as are the rates of change.


    The newer version has a slightly more optimistic set of one-day changes with five of the six periods positive, indicating strengthening. Unfortunately with the “lumpiness” we've been seeing and the very small positive values it's not reasonable to say it's showing a new trend is beginning. However, the change over five days has all six periods showing reducing weakness ATM. But it's only one day, so I don't give it a lot of weight yet. The rates of change for all periods shows reducing weakness.


    Details of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” and inflection points omitted here.


    28 Aug 2013, 05:36 AM Reply Like
  • Insiders buying New Flyer Industries (Bus)
    28 Aug 2013, 05:44 AM Reply Like


    Nice presentation, with clear info on the sales funnel and number of opportunities. And... this presentation was given yesterday and is now on the website. Axion can learn a lot from them :)
    28 Aug 2013, 08:55 AM Reply Like
  • When everything is above board, this is how a presentation should look.
    Pay special attention to the sales funnel ....but also to the Management team and Board of Directors, and where they come from and their background.


    This project with Sun Power is a big deal.


    It may take a while, but ZBB appears to be on the right track.
    28 Aug 2013, 09:38 AM Reply Like
  • axion-nl -


    ZBB does put together a great presentation, but time is getting long in the tooth for them as well. They keep promising that they are going to be part of the "storage mega-trend," but it also appears they could just have well have shut down back in May for the summer and reopened after the holiday next week and the only difference would have been the saved operating variable costs.


    If you can't tell, my frustration with both ZBB and Axion is palpable.
    28 Aug 2013, 09:36 AM Reply Like
  • yup, I'm also long ZBB and they also promiss a lot and the last months have been very quiet. But it's time for a rabbit to show up, from ZBB's and Axion hat... or two rabbits :)
    28 Aug 2013, 10:15 AM Reply Like
  • The last rabbit TG pulled out was a single ePower truck sale. As investor meals went, that little rabbit was not even an appetizer...


    I believe the time when the wolves will be satisfied with crumbs are over.


    No rabbits this time, TG. We want something much larger...
    28 Aug 2013, 10:27 AM Reply Like
  • TB...Want to make any bets how big the sale is ? and if it's one or more?
    28 Aug 2013, 10:40 AM Reply Like
  • LOL, I ain't bettin' nottin' here...


    But my guess would be that we see a few notices of small sales as Axion scrambles after anything it can scare up. Sure, its POSSIBLE to feed a large family with just squirrel and rabbit meat, but you have to be one hard working, dead eye hunter to do it...


    With BMW shunted off to 2017my or so, and NS using the 999 as a dust collection device, we really are looking at the "other", smaller game Axion has brushed by over the years.
    28 Aug 2013, 10:47 AM Reply Like
  • If you want to take a pool for what the PbC sales will be before next quarter end, put me down for $800k.
    28 Aug 2013, 12:58 PM Reply Like
  • I like your estimate, NGS. I hadn't really thought of a number for my personal theory, but call it something around $500k in new business (probably all non-recurring projects).
    28 Aug 2013, 05:42 PM Reply Like
  • Looks like TG told Vani not to come back until he bags some game. Hope he also told him crow doesn't count as food for the table. ;-)


    NYC Gets Aggressive on Smarter Transportation Infrastructure: AGRION to Host NYC’s Chief Fleet Officer, AECOM, & More in September to Discuss Current & Future Initiatives


    "In order to analyze these growing trends and the challenges impeding this market, AGRION will host a roundtable discussion in New York City on September 10th. With speakers from AECOM, NYC’s Department of Citywide Administrative Services (DCAS/NYC), Axion Power, Bandwagon, and Hodgson Russ LLP, the intent is to foster an intelligent conversation among industry professionals on developing smarter solutions to efficient transportation and urban mobility."

    28 Aug 2013, 10:38 AM Reply Like
  • "Looks like TG told Vani not to come back until he bags some game. Hope he also told him crow doesn't count as food for the table. ;-)"


    :-) Looking back a bit I find it interesting that renewal of Vani's employment contract two years early added $500 month car allowance in addition to annual bonus.
    28 Aug 2013, 11:22 AM Reply Like
  • I hope TG and Vani are starting to feel the pressure from the BOD. We need sales, meaningful recurring sales, and we need them now!
    28 Aug 2013, 11:52 AM Reply Like
  • Hopefully someday we'll nod and say it was a bargain.


    So far,
    28 Aug 2013, 11:56 AM Reply Like
  • This BOD (which will soon number among its members TG and his exCFO) is not likely to hold TG's feet to the fire at this late date.
    28 Aug 2013, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • Having the CEO on a Board of Directors, to me, is just a bad idea for any company. It's like having the U.S. President being made Speaker of the House as well, but consolidation is the theme these days. Results so far are less than stellar.
    28 Aug 2013, 12:18 PM Reply Like
  • DR. In many (most I think) European countries it is directly forbidden.
    28 Aug 2013, 12:40 PM Reply Like
  • Forget the car, it's time to eat you own dog food. Vani needs an epower cab to drive around in. Great for demos and it saves on hotels. I wonder how many guys at truckstop showers wear suits?
    28 Aug 2013, 12:45 PM Reply Like
  • Poul, Well that stinks. How do you reward yourself for a "Job ( ) Done" if you can't vote on it yourself. :-O

    28 Aug 2013, 12:58 PM Reply Like
  • Trego taking Averill's seat is a big step backwards for the Board. The ONLY guy that had demonstrated, repeated success growing a start-up is being replaced with a yes man bureaucrat.


    Disappointing, but I must say probably not all that important at this point. Axion has made its choices already. AXPW will live or die by BMW, NS, PC, ePower and the PIPErs.
    28 Aug 2013, 01:00 PM Reply Like
  • So vote against it. I plan to. In fact, I got my proxy material electronically and I am voting right now.
    28 Aug 2013, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • Maybe Vani is commuting regularly between New Castle and


    BMW of North America, LLC
    300 Chestnut Ridge Road
    Woodcliff Lake, NJ 07677-7731
    28 Aug 2013, 05:31 PM Reply Like
  • DRIch, maybe I haven't been watching, but I don't know of any US corporation where the CEO is not on the BOD.
    28 Aug 2013, 06:54 PM Reply Like
  • >Poul Brandt ... Directly Forbidden ... as it should be.
    28 Aug 2013, 07:29 PM Reply Like
  • >Valleywood ... Is there any wonder why so many CEO's have such ridiculous compensation plans? Seems the really bad ones make the most ... just to be competitive within the industry.


    The other habit I really hate is CEO's and/or relatives sitting on the Board's of other companies ... like their vendor's or customer. It is very good at suppressing competition through captured markets and a limited number of people pulling the strings. Country Club Capitalism. It gets really crazy as whole business sectors approach or achieve Oligarchy (banking is the example that first springs to mind). Still that is the way America works & Americans seem to want it
    28 Aug 2013, 07:39 PM Reply Like
  • Dr. Rich, IMO, Americans don't really want it....they are sort of brainwashed into thinking "this is the way it's supposed to be"


    Most young have been raised in this environment and do not know it was ever any other way.


    Country Club capitalism is a good way of putting it.....and is why capitalism as we know it today is failing.
    28 Aug 2013, 10:10 PM Reply Like
  • >LT ... Failing ... is a part of Capitalism. The problem is it is not being allowed to happen. Pity really ... but, I realize, it, like a republic, is not the natural order of things. There is no "brainwashing" occurring. What we are headed toward is from lack of effort.
    28 Aug 2013, 11:19 PM Reply Like
  • "Country Club capitalism is a good way of putting it.....and is why capitalism as we know it today is failing."


    Another way of saying "partnership of business, labor and government" that leads to the likes "Big 3 auto" and General Motors.
    28 Aug 2013, 11:31 PM Reply Like
  • Crony socialist/capitalist global order. Its all the rage. Everyone is doing it...
    29 Aug 2013, 08:23 AM Reply Like
  • DRich, Apple followed your advice and its stockholders removed Jobs as Chairman, appointing Sculley in his place. Jobs left the Board, and all did not go well.


    A few years later Jobs was recruited back to the Board & Chairman/CEO position, Sculley was fired and the company did well.


    American corporations can elect anybody to the board they so choose. If the decisions suck it is the fault the the stockholders.


    The great irony is that we now have the greatest control of the BOD of Axion we hopefully will ever see. When institutional investors start buying above $5 our influence will disappear. But then we'll be happy with that hurdle I suspect.


    The truth is that the European model of a two-tiered board gives stockholders - owners only marginal input. But then nothing Europe has done in the past hundred years has impressed me much.
    29 Aug 2013, 10:25 AM Reply Like
  • >Valleywood ... I can't say what is right or wrong. It's just my opinion that management & governance should be separate. They were set up separate for a reason. If that reason is antiquated then just do away with the Board of Directors. They would be a captured entity of management and of no use.
    29 Aug 2013, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • if the decisions suck it is the fault the the stockholders.


    I disagree with this....the public never holds control. Example is the next share increase to be voted on.
    It makes no difference what axionistas vote, even 100% won't over come the PiPers and mgt shares.


    Shareholders get to vote, but until the big boyz fall out, we have no influence.
    29 Aug 2013, 10:47 AM Reply Like
  • Actually your math is in desperate need of repair. The people on this board dwarf the holdings of the management and the PiPers. The truth is that the Axionistas on this board and those lurking like the company and the way it is doing business, and they will vote accordingly. We'll know after the meeting who wants what .
    29 Aug 2013, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • There you go again LT, making up ridiculous stories that have nothing to do with the facts.


    Fact: On July 29th, the record date for Axion's proxy statement directors and officers had the power to vote 4,427,455 shares out of 121.9 million.


    Fact: Prior to July 29th the PIPErs only received 8.6 million shares. Since they got their shares in early June and 11 million shares traded before the record date, the odds are pretty good that the PIPErs are about as relevant as I am when it comes to voting power.


    As near as I can tell, Axion's retail stockholder base controls well over 100 million shares and at least 20 million shares are owned by declared Axionistas.
    29 Aug 2013, 02:35 PM Reply Like
  • Valley is correct. I'd wager the active members of this board own a lot of shares.


    I consider the share increase to be minor because if I really didn't like mgmt I wouldn't own any shares and that is a sign of mgmt prowess. John speaks of the stock being broken. That is a failure of mgmt in my opinion to sell. Current mgmt has trouble selling a realistic and reasonable vision to current, future and former shareholder and also to potential customers.


    My vote is with my wallet.
    29 Aug 2013, 02:38 PM Reply Like
  • No one can prove how many share true axionistas (which are people on this APC, not ALL retail shareholders) own.


    An example of shareholder votes & Country Club capitalism would be Ford motor company. The Ford family owns about 30% +/- of the company but that is considered control.
    Try to do something without Bill Fords approval.


    Even with a concerted effort shareholders could not split the Chairman/CEO rold of Jamie Dimon


    Try to take on Apple when Steve Jobs was there.


    Basically, it won't happen. With the country club votes, and no votes, and people who let the board vote their shares, you don't stand a chance and everyone here knows it.


    Try removing Tom Granville with axionista votes alone next time u get disgruntled.
    29 Aug 2013, 03:27 PM Reply Like
  • There you go again LT citing examples from other companies that have no bearing on Axion Power International.


    Just out of curiosity, do you have a sister named OMY?
    29 Aug 2013, 04:03 PM Reply Like
  • Actually, the stockholders of Apple DID throw Steve Jobs out as Chairman and member of the BOD. But you are probably too young and inexperienced to remember or know that.


    You selected Axion as your topic and your facts are candles in a gale.


    I submit that this AP board votes in favor of Granville. Disregard for facts does not make your position correct. If the Axionistas vote TG gone he'll be gone. Pretending otherwise is kinda goofy.


    I know I'm supporting him. Of course if you consider my pasture part of the country club set, then maybe you've got me there. I'll so inform my cows.
    29 Aug 2013, 04:08 PM Reply Like
  • >Valleywood ... " ... if you consider my pasture part of the country club set, then ...", well it is pasturiblity. Membership is by invitation only, unless a member is born into it.
    29 Aug 2013, 05:15 PM Reply Like
  • LT


    Again, your info is inaccurate, misleading and apparently deceiving.
    Your bitterness is sadly disconcerting.


    Again, curious about your personal rationale.
    29 Aug 2013, 10:18 PM Reply Like
  • I found a new theme song for the Musketeers

    28 Aug 2013, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • And for the Musketeers dealing with the "cold weather and no supercharger" blues:

    28 Aug 2013, 01:03 PM Reply Like
  • DRich: I think these days it is pretty much a given that the CEO will be on the board. I think the bigger issue is the Chairman role and the CEO's power within the board. Long-serving CEO's end up driving the nomination process so the newer board members owe their position to the CEO. Nominating the former CFO, who has already proven his loyalty to Mr. Granville, is just an extreme case of this phenomena. I presume that Mr. Averill, while loyal to Mr. Granville due to their long association, maintained an appropriate degree of independence. Thus, replacing Mr. Averill with Mr. Trego will be a significant change.


    I wrote about this maybe a month ago and found the silence to be deafening. I do think that Axion probably should have replaced its CEO during this past year. However, that is in the past and it is very clear that we will sink or swim with Mr. Granville.


    If the stock were at $.50, I'd probably sell 80% of my position. However, I will admit that I still have more than $.13 worth of confidence in Mr. Granville as I think is the case by everyone on this board, including the other Granville doubters.
    28 Aug 2013, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • TG manages to keep my confidence quarter by quarter. A BMW win virtually assures our investment will be a success. It may be far off, but I'm waiting to see if "significant sales" next quarter will appease me til then.
    28 Aug 2013, 01:04 PM Reply Like
  • “... it is very clear that we will sink or swim with Mr. Granville. ... I will admit that I still have more than $.13 worth of confidence in Mr. Granville as I think is the case by everyone on this board, including the other Granville doubters.”


    Agree that this is primarily TG’s show, but I no longer necessarily believe we’ll either sink or swim with him as a result. Despite my own TG reservations, I think the odds are now overwhelmingly in favor of Axion successfully emerging from this current morass of toxic financing and dearth of good news, no matter who’s at the helm.


    It seems to me this current scenario is already priced into the current dismal .13 pps. If so, it would seem that even relatively small steps to further reduce cash burn, and thus extend the runway until further financing may be needed will prevent Axion from ever having to do another disastrous PIPE agreement [which I currently believe to be Axion’s greatest risk].


    Given TG’s optimistic words at the latest cc [I understand there’s been others in the past], I now believe some very tangible sales and revenue are in the cards short-term. I’m not expecting any announcements to be more than relatively modest, but I believe they’ll likely be enough to take some of the imagined worst case scenarios off the table. Because of Axion’s underlying fundamental strengths, I believe that things will improve, perhaps not because of TG, but in spite of him.
    28 Aug 2013, 03:16 PM Reply Like
  • Has there ever been a cc that wasn't optimistic in TG's eyes & tone?


    Believe what u want when it comes to TG's optimism, just show me the money. Because I don't believe a word he says.
    28 Aug 2013, 06:14 PM Reply Like
  • >LT ... OH! Yes. Back in 2007 (or was it 2008 ?) the CC was about 3 minutes long with one very depressed Tom Granville stating that Axion is still here and glad you could stop by. The end.
    28 Aug 2013, 07:43 PM Reply Like
  • BMW is still a year or so off IMHO, but I am keeping my hopes with regards to Powercubes. Anything less than a few million worth of sales will be disappointing though...
    29 Aug 2013, 08:27 AM Reply Like
  • At least we have a pretty firm date to look to. Per TG we will have significant orders to talk about during the Nov conference call. If TG does not deliver this time around then we won't have to think about selling our shares as there won't be any buyers!
    28 Aug 2013, 03:11 PM Reply Like
  • RB
    I fully agree
    28 Aug 2013, 03:43 PM Reply Like
  • I'm pretty sure he said BEFORE the next conference call.
    28 Aug 2013, 04:13 PM Reply Like
  • Closing remarks from the quarterly cc.


    "Thomas Granville - Chairman, Chief Executive Officer


    Thank you. And thanks again for taking the time to listen to the Axion story. We expect to have a new member of the team – an important member of the team in place on our next call. I never promised orders on a timetable basis before. But, I will predict that we will have significant orders to talk about on our next earning call.


    We are looking forward to our Annual Meeting to our new CFO, to reporting new sales and to the growth and success of Axion Power. Thanks. You will be hearing from us soon."
    28 Aug 2013, 04:27 PM Reply Like
  • Accumulating news and dumping it on the next CC might well happen, but I hope that:


    1. TG realizes that it would be smarter to issue the news as it happens, giving a runway for expectations to build rather than a vacuum for disappointment to fill


    2. Each announcement stands a chance of becoming a story which is widely reported and analyzed


    3. Partners in any of the projects have a chance to add their followers to ours, and their voice to the resulting synergy


    4. Hoarding news and then unleashing it in one large lump is a sign of weakness and lack of self-confidence, and is a poor defensive strategy
    28 Aug 2013, 05:52 PM Reply Like
  • Given the terms of the ongoing PIPE, it would be incomprehensible to me that they would delay the sharing of any positive information.
    28 Aug 2013, 06:13 PM Reply Like
  • "we will have significant orders"
    This raises the question, how big/many would Mr. Granville feel to be significant?
    28 Aug 2013, 07:17 PM Reply Like
  • Well at least two and since Axion gets few orders, significant could be directionally the magnitude of a mini cube. Or significant could have nothing to do with the size of the sale and have more to do with the recipient. I'd take a two hundred PbC order for a fleet test over a powercube. Fat chance we'd hear about that.
    28 Aug 2013, 07:49 PM Reply Like
  • ii - incomprewhat! ... stinginess with news is an Axion trademark.
    28 Aug 2013, 11:20 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan: fits the mold - with specs, with end-user sales (I understand that), with relationship disclosures (NDAs I guess), ...


    We are expected to invest with the man behind the curtain at the end of the yellow brick road?


    Oh well ...


    29 Aug 2013, 06:27 AM Reply Like
  • I would be Ok with a single PowerCube sold to Halliburton. I would suspect there to be more (a lot more) in a follow-on contract.
    29 Aug 2013, 08:01 AM Reply Like
  • They seemed to think that a 560 battery sale to ePower was significant. Let's hope they beat that.
    29 Aug 2013, 08:55 AM Reply Like
  • ngs ... That preliminary commitment to purchase batteries for 10 more trucks was significant since it would mark a repeat sale. In fact, it will mark a repeat sale of a repeat sale when it actually occurs. BUT, that nasty "testing" disclaimer was embedded in the announcement.
    29 Aug 2013, 09:49 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan, Well there hasn't been much action outside of automotive and rail. So as HTL points out we get NDA pie.


    Just as well anyway. TG communicates like a rock. As you suggest.
    29 Aug 2013, 11:11 AM Reply Like
  • What? Only one fourth with similar driving range. Why bother? 5-5-5 is on the way.


    Just Add Water: GE, Berkeley Lab Explore Possible Key to Energy Storage for Electric Vehicles


    "New battery could be just one-fourth the cost of comparable car batteries on the market today"

    28 Aug 2013, 03:48 PM Reply Like
  • >iindelco: what? is this a serious challenge to Axion?
    28 Aug 2013, 04:43 PM Reply Like
  • Sorry Obieephyhm, It's energy storage related but OT to Axion.
    28 Aug 2013, 04:44 PM Reply Like
  • no need to be sorry - you provide useful links -- i'm just not sure how to evaluate it, that's all!
    28 Aug 2013, 04:46 PM Reply Like
  • Iindelco: Water is pretty heavy, no? I wonder if the gains will be sufficient to justify the weight. Without looking it up, I assume water is heavier per unit of volume than lithium?


    How well will it perform when exposed at rest to sub-freezing temperatures? Need anti-freeze? If so, does that harm the chemistry? Will it need cooling, auxiliary pumps for cooling, plumbing beyond that needed for the tanks <--> chambers fluid transfers, etc.


    If potable water shortages will become an issue in the future, I wonder if this will be justifiable and/or as inexpensive as they anticipate.


    So much promise and so many unresolved "opportunities"?


    Interesting regardless.


    28 Aug 2013, 05:02 PM Reply Like
  • Flow batteries have a hard time getting up to energy densities of 100 wh/l at the system level, which means a 24 kWh battery would weigh about 530 pounds. It's not bad but it's nothing to write home about either.
    28 Aug 2013, 05:18 PM Reply Like
  • HTL, This is the first time I've seen an article suggesting a flow battery for a passenger car sized mobile application. Generally the directional guidance has been more toward stationary storage for reasons you've touched on. But if they get significantly better who knows. Of course significantly better will not come easily or in short order.


    Maybe the real strategy is to keep feeding a few of the larger players while they keep making promises and everyone else starves to death because nobody will choose what's available today because they are waiting for the miracle to come?
    28 Aug 2013, 05:41 PM Reply Like
  • Looks like Gerhard Thelen is planning on keeping busy. From his LinkedIn page.


    Gerhard Thelen


    Principal at Independant Transportation Consultant
    28 Aug 2013, 04:33 PM Reply Like
  • East Penn Manufacturing gets zoning relief for addition to plant

    28 Aug 2013, 04:45 PM Reply Like
  • >iindelco ... YAY!
    28 Aug 2013, 07:49 PM Reply Like
  • DRich, Maybe someday....sigh!


    Oh well, a little celebration for someone else and their progress. Maybe it'll add a little color to future possibilities?

    28 Aug 2013, 07:58 PM Reply Like
  • Another start-up looking to add a lower cost capacitive device in support of LABs for SS. Good background on the principle of the company.


    Inmatech sees power in new battery tech


    "Levi Thompson hopes to ride another emerging battery technology back to the top of the market.


    Thompson's new company — Inmatech Inc., a University of Michigan spinoff — is finishing work on a prototype device that promises to allow the makers of electric vehicles to replace expensive and volatile lithium-ion batteries with traditional, and much cheaper, lead-acid batteries.


    In the next week or two, Inmatech — short for innovative material technology — expects to finish making the first prototype of a supercapacitor, which stores energy and reduces the load on electric-vehicle batteries during the stop-start phase."

    28 Aug 2013, 05:00 PM Reply Like
  • note sure who are BMW's batters suppliers but i think a partership between Axion and Robert Bosch GmbH would be huge!
    28 Aug 2013, 06:24 PM Reply Like
  • not sure who BMW's battery suppliers are but i think a Axion and Robert Bosch GmbH partnership would be huge!
    28 Aug 2013, 06:26 PM Reply Like
  • You can say that again!
    28 Aug 2013, 07:50 PM Reply Like
  • O.R: You can say that again.


    29 Aug 2013, 06:32 AM Reply Like
  • "Don't try to fix it. I just need you to listen." Every man has heard these words. And they are the law of the land. No matter what.

    28 Aug 2013, 10:12 PM Reply Like
  • Absolutely fabulous.
    28 Aug 2013, 10:16 PM Reply Like
  • WIO,
    Oh, I cannot count the number of times I have had that discussion! Learning to ignore the nail is the number one way I stay married. ;-)
    28 Aug 2013, 11:29 PM Reply Like
  • >LabTech, my wife sent this link to me, and as I began to watch it, I wondered a bit nervously whether I might have "missed something". It wasn't until I got to the 22 second mark that I discovered I was "out of the woods". Whew! :-) In reality, we actually do pretty well in this department.
    29 Aug 2013, 02:12 AM Reply Like
  • Hm, maybe that's why HardToLove seemed so appropriate to me as my moniker - I only *grudgingly* stopped trying to fix it.


    Good vid - forwarded to my wife, who I hope will enjoy as much as I did.




    29 Aug 2013, 06:38 AM Reply Like
  • you've no idea how much my sides ache from watching this . . . between this and the postings for the Tesladorian Theme Song (sorry about your . . .) I haven't laughed this hard in a long time . . .
    29 Aug 2013, 11:19 AM Reply Like
  • I wonder how many of us forwarded this to their wives/gfs today . . . know I did . . .
    29 Aug 2013, 11:20 AM Reply Like
  • Some of the best advice I give other guys is, if u find that you're digging a hole in a conversation with a woman, just literally stop talking. Even if it's mid-sentence. Otherwise the hole ur in only gets deeper and deeper.


    I.e., "Do No More Harm"
    29 Aug 2013, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • Anybody who is married is laughing their *behind* off... I can't wait to show that clip to my wife!


    I *still* have to remind myself: Don't try to fix... just listen... then...maybe... fix...but maybe not.... that's the art.


    Thanks for the clip!
    29 Aug 2013, 03:09 AM Reply Like
  • We are in the process of building a house and all the headaches that go with this. This is too sensative of a topic right now after she blew up at me in the flooring store on Tuesday morning.
    29 Aug 2013, 09:45 AM Reply Like
  • mrholty,


    They say if your marriage can survive building a house it can survive anything. We built our dream home here five years ago. We had been married a L-O-N-G time with an empty nest and all college educations paid for. And we retired.


    It was still a nightmare. Sigh. I decided not to fix anything. It was better for me to be attacked for being "unresponsive to a problem" than it was to be accused of being "insensitive". I now don't fix nuthin' less'n I'm hounded into action. Our relationship seems to be thriving with the new procedure.


    You'll make it through all the stuff. Might have a few high BP days though. Good luck.


    p.s. You don't mind if I chuckle a bit after reading your post, do you? You have my sympathies 'cause it ain't funny. Still . . . .
    29 Aug 2013, 10:51 AM Reply Like