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  • Nicu Mihalache
    , contributor
    Comments (1020) | Send Message
     
    again???
    8 Sep 2013, 10:20 AM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (425) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » Updated graphs, courtesy of John Petersen were added into the header.
    8 Sep 2013, 10:25 AM Reply Like
  • Mike Pepin
    , contributor
    Comments (5) | Send Message
     
    Deux!!
    8 Sep 2013, 10:57 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2103) | Send Message
     
    For your Rocky and Bullwinkle story of the day, Squirrel Spy Squad Arrested in Iran:

     

    http://bit.ly/1fMqkTq
    8 Sep 2013, 11:10 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    Old habits die hard after years of fighting Boris and Natasha.
    8 Sep 2013, 11:46 AM Reply Like
  • jpau
    , contributor
    Comments (714) | Send Message
     
    Vee are lookink for moose and squirrel...
    8 Sep 2013, 10:28 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Voices of Rocky and Bullwinkle.

     

    http://bit.ly/18HCSZz
    9 Sep 2013, 12:27 AM Reply Like
  • RuggedDC
    , contributor
    Comments (182) | Send Message
     
    Thank you for that wonderful nostalgia.
    10 Sep 2013, 05:30 PM Reply Like
  • Bylo-
    , contributor
    Comments (388) | Send Message
     
    Close but no cigar.
    8 Sep 2013, 11:26 AM Reply Like
  • obieephyhm
    , contributor
    Comments (1558) | Send Message
     
    wow, almost close this time . . .
    8 Sep 2013, 01:03 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (828) | Send Message
     
    Slow weekend — Time for an OT mini-rant?

     

    Regarding all the front-line news about Syria: Something I object to is when news media outlets, and commentators of all sorts, continually refer to the Assad regime as killing “its own people”, or when referring to Assad alone, as killing “his own people”. This kind of referencing has gone on for years, whether it’s Gaddafi, or Saddam Hussein, etc.

     

    HIS own people? Huh? Does he somehow own them? I can only imagine the outcry if all of a sudden references were being made to “Obama’s own people”, or “Bush’s own people”. I cringed the other day when I heard Obama make a reference to “MY military”. Huh? So the military of the US is his??? — Anyway, I think that about does it (and I think I feel better). Mini-rant complete. :-)
    8 Sep 2013, 01:13 PM Reply Like
  • tahoe1780
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    Charlie Rose - tomorrow night

     

    http://bit.ly/17iDkhR
    8 Sep 2013, 01:35 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2103) | Send Message
     
    Not only is it nonsensical to refer to Assad's opponents as his possessions, it is not even accurate in the sense of ethnicity of "his own people." He and his ruling faction are Shia Alawi muslims. The majority of the country and opposition forces are Sunni, not "his own people."

     

    The deep ethnic divide between Shia and Sunni tribes goes back centuries, to the beginnings of Islam, and has been at the heart of countless wars. Why are we getting sucked into this one?

     

    http://bit.ly/1cVVNmq
    8 Sep 2013, 03:28 PM Reply Like
  • tahoe1780
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/1e6mg4S
    8 Sep 2013, 06:19 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4421) | Send Message
     
    >WayneinOregon ... The Military is the sole property of the Executive to be used for any reason that can be construed, loosely or not, as being in the defense of the Interests of the US. This pretty much means anything short of attacking Alabama or California if fair game. The only restriction is that the Executive has to justify the Congress after 60 days if the action requires extension. It is the authority We used to attacked Granada, Panama, Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan, Yemen and other place We don't know about ... I'm sure.

     

    Been that way since 1973 when Congress legislated away its War Power and will stand until It or the Supreme Court change it. It's just one of many things the American People have given away to the Executive Branch.

     

    Meh! I think Americans in aggregate rather feel safe than free. Path of least work & involvement. End Rant Response.

     

    Back to Energy Conservation & Storage.
    8 Sep 2013, 01:48 PM Reply Like
  • rhyse12
    , contributor
    Comments (169) | Send Message
     
    Electorate have always selected safety and security over freedom.
    The first two are tangible, freedom much less so.

     

    Syria, a war over Faith/Belief... pass

     

    But gassing civilians- can't go unpunished...
    9 Sep 2013, 01:37 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4605) | Send Message
     
    CHATSWORTH, Calif., Sept. 9, 2013 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Capstone Turbine Corporation (http://bit.ly/Ts2ikx) (Nasdaq:CPST), the world's leading clean technology manufacturer of microturbine energy systems, announced today that it received another follow-on order for a large Australian coal seam gas company. The initial order in July 2008 was for the supply of 110 C30 packages, which was later increased to 154 C30s in 2009. The first follow-on contract was for 44 C30 microturbines in October 2012, and in early January 2013 they ordered 36 additional units. The latest order is for 14 units, bringing the total number of units sold to date to 248 C30 microturbines. These orders are part of a periodical supply contract for the life of the project, at least five years.
    9 Sep 2013, 08:32 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2483) | Send Message
     
    Very interesting. I mentioned a short while back that the CEO of another company I have followed, Crexendo, was installing an existing retail shareholder on the BOD of directors for a departing director. No doubt that he is very accomplished and an asset to the Board the though.

     

    http://miniurl.com/hQfP
    9 Sep 2013, 09:55 AM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (828) | Send Message
     
    Besides AXPW, I tend to watch Exide and ZBB performance fairly closely. I've been struck by how their market caps have been so close to each other recently. Currently:

     

    XIDEQ: ... $17.11 M
    ZBB: ........ $17.17 M
    AXPW: .... $17.22 M

     

    Looks like a horse race. I wonder what this will look like a year from now.
    9 Sep 2013, 01:07 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17253) | Send Message
     
    WiO: Or what it will look like before the AGM when we've been promised "substantial" sales.

     

    Might move the tachometer a wee bit?

     

    HardToLove
    9 Sep 2013, 01:31 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4421) | Send Message
     
    >H.T.Love ... Mr. Granville said "substantial sales" before the next CC. Although it would be nice to have news before the shareholder meeting but then what?
    9 Sep 2013, 01:45 PM Reply Like
  • VictorG45
    , contributor
    Comments (40) | Send Message
     
    Scientists calculate the energy required to store wind and solar power on the grid
    http://bit.ly/17LFFCJ

     

    Hello all, I found this article evaluating the various battery types for use in grid storage. No mention of the Pbc but it had an interesting estimation of the cycle life needed for grid storage. None of the battery types tested are up to the task.
    Regards,
    Victor
    9 Sep 2013, 01:39 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17253) | Send Message
     
    VictorG45: Good find. I noted that in the article was a reason to now test the PbC beyond the 2,000 cycles, where IIRC it was stopped because "nobody cared" beyond that figure.

     

    "To efficiently store energy on the grid, batteries must endure 10,000 to 18,000 cycles, he said".

     

    That might make the PbC attractive enough to use even with it's lower energy density!

     

    HardToLove
    9 Sep 2013, 01:50 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    HTL, So 2,501 cycles and that's it. Or should they test to 80 % discharge? What do the God's of lithium ion do besides obscure. Oh wait, can't point fingers.

     

    "We have been testing laboratory prototypes of Axion's PbC batteries since April 2004. Our test protocol requires a complete charge-discharge cycle every 7 hours to a 100% depth of discharge. During testing, our laboratory prototypes have withstood more than 2,500 cycles before failure."

     

    http://bit.ly/17lkhU6
    9 Sep 2013, 02:23 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    That's a very old bit of prose that I wrote in 2006. I'm surprised to see that it's survived this long.

     

    The fact is Axion went to 2,500 on the original hand made prototypes and then went to 2,500 again on the manufactured PBCs. The problem is that even at a rate of 3-1/2 cycles a day it takes 10 months to accumulate 1,000 cycles.

     

    The real reason for walking away from deep discharge testing is the pace of technological advancement. By the time you get the cycle-life testing up to interesting numbers you have a new and improved product that makes statistics on an older product meaningless.
    9 Sep 2013, 02:31 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17253) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: I didn't realize we'd done 2.5K. I wonder how many of the others have done anywhere near that to 100% DoD.

     

    If I had my hands and feet amputated, would I still be able to count the others that tested that way on my fingers and toes?

     

    HardToLove
    9 Sep 2013, 02:32 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    John, I'm sure there are ways for someone to eloquently deliver the added information you just shared and to add in comments concerning additional improvements such as A, B, C to address discovered failure modes which are now being tested. Perhaps this would improve the message on Axion's technology page beyond what you wrote in 2006?

     

    Your comment suggests a refresh might be advisable and if so I agree.
    -
    HTL, I'd be surprised if many have been tested under such harsh conditions.

     

    BTW, Keep your fingers and toes. I'm hoping you'll need them to count signed substantial contracts. Boy am I hopin'.
    9 Sep 2013, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4421) | Send Message
     
    >VictorG45 ... Thanks. It was an interesting article. One thing that was left out of the calculation that would put a better grid perspective on it is; What is the energy cost of the base load energy? I understand why it is not included and that is because wind & solar are not, and probably never will be, base load energy sources but I'd still be interested to see an energy cost comparison to competitive peaker generation plants.
    9 Sep 2013, 02:36 PM Reply Like
  • VictorG45
    , contributor
    Comments (40) | Send Message
     
    DRich... I was thinking along the same lines. Frequency regulation for renewables is a high value application. But diurnal storage for a solar plant, I don't see it happening. On the other hand it may be cost effective to create a regional grid storage plant for wind, solar and hydrocarbon power.
    I bought into Axion last year because of it's potential in the frequency regulation market. Since then I've come to see the PbC as a black swan. In the last couple of years we've seen it move into automotive, trucking, and the rail business. At some point an egghead working in the utility sector is going to discover the PbC and have a eureka moment.
    Regards,
    Victor
    9 Sep 2013, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17253) | Send Message
     
    Victor: I'm partial to micro-grids and storage for them. That might avoid a lot of issues that occur with any kind of major grid-level design, permitting, regulatory approvals, ... and would also help reduce, by deferral mostly I guess, needed grid upgrades.

     

    Ought to be a "wind(d)-wind(d)" situation! :-)) Of course. there will also be rational places where large grid-sized storage makes sense.

     

    HardToLove
    9 Sep 2013, 03:14 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    Large grid-sized storage makes sense in two and only two cases. It works when you're replacing oil fired generation with renewables and storage. It works when you have a convenient set of mountains for pumped storage. The rest is bafflegab.

     

    There are thousands of worthwhile stabilization applications but diurnal storage simply can't work economically.
    9 Sep 2013, 03:21 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Did you read the section on pumped-hydro that was in JohnM's article last week? It pointed out that in Germany, where they have pumped-hydro facilities, they are shutting them down because they are no longer cost effective, due to the surge in solar. The pumped hydro operators were pushing the water up the mountain at night, when power was cheap, and running the water generators during the day, during peak usage, to make the most on the difference. However, with most of that being during the middle of the day, when all the solar was online, there wasn't enough demand to make it cost effective anymore. Doesn't seem to make sense, but that's what was happening. I suppose there wasn't as much of a time shift in Germany, since there are fewer people coming home from work in the evening and turning on/up their home A/Cs.
    9 Sep 2013, 04:40 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    Yep I wonder what the cost of all that solar VS pumped Hydro is?
    They multiplied their costs enormously with the feed in tariffs.
    Also on days it the sun isn't producing much they either have to keep the pumped hydro available or cover it with peak power.

     

    Aside from the government messing with the market; I wonder what the costs (Financial and environmental) would be VS Pumped hydro.

     

    As long as PV is already there and Pumped Hydro is already there which makes sense?
    9 Sep 2013, 07:25 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Froggey, Unintended consequences.

     

    It's like jumping into the cage to feed the lion on your own terms.
    9 Sep 2013, 07:59 PM Reply Like
  • JohnM121
    , contributor
    Comments (357) | Send Message
     
    These kind of studies that I have seen are focused on renewal energy only. If the real goal is reducing fossil fuel/ CO2, then some combination of storage and peaker plants may provide the least cost approach. Reducing the cost increases the deployment rate, which can reduce the fossil fuel used.

     

    Better technologies can be phased in as they become available. We're trying to sprint to the finish of a marathon, but the race just started.
    9 Sep 2013, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    How energy storage is transforming the electric power system

     

    http://bit.ly/1axjhAQ
    9 Sep 2013, 03:11 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    Fire up that hopium pipe.
    9 Sep 2013, 03:18 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    A little supply and demand at work WayneIO.

     

    North American car battery sales rise, underscore lead demand

     

    http://reut.rs/19BzW1K
    9 Sep 2013, 04:28 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Go figure <end snark>.

     

    Dirty little secret about EV chargers

     

    "Road Warrior is beginning to hear about the unusual “courtesy” electric vehicle drivers afford each other when it comes time to visit a charging station. Here’s what one reader had to say:

     

    “It is not a courtesy but a curse. Some EV drivers unplug an unattended car and then plug in their own. This has happened to me twice. It’s a big annoyance and hard to control or police."

     

    http://bit.ly/1axw5Y0
    9 Sep 2013, 04:51 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2103) | Send Message
     
    The things we do for love.....

     

    http://bit.ly/19BEl4K
    9 Sep 2013, 04:55 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13441) | Send Message
     
    Locking gas caps, er, "charging latches". Some enterprising soul will be selling these aftermarket any minute now...

     

    Then bolt cutter sales in upmarket green enclaves will suddenly be flying off the Home Depot shelves...

     

    Its the next technology race.
    9 Sep 2013, 05:09 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    Who could imagine such rudeness? Next we'll hear that kids are going around unplugging cars instead of playing mailbox baseball. I tell you man, the days of EV anarchy are coming soon to a neighborhood near you.
    9 Sep 2013, 05:20 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    I remember the enterprising young men in Mexico that would come up when you were parking your car with a hammer in their hand and ask you if you wanted to pay them to watch your car for a small amount of money. I always needed the car watched.

     

    Perhaps a solution here in the USA as well given inner city graduation rates.
    9 Sep 2013, 05:21 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4421) | Send Message
     
    Who knows, maybe this guy will have better luck at roadside chargers.

     

    Tesla founder hits road with family
    http://bit.ly/1axB4I5
    9 Sep 2013, 05:26 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17253) | Send Message
     
    What's the equivalent for an EV of sugar in the gas tank? That can't be too far away.

     

    HardToLove
    9 Sep 2013, 05:30 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4421) | Send Message
     
    >H.T.Love ... How about a soda can ring tab stuck on the charger positive terminal with gum. I haven't tried it yet to see if is long enough to contact the frame but it is a thought. I guess I'll wait for cooler weather and a small, warming fire makes more sense.
    9 Sep 2013, 06:03 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (824) | Send Message
     
    II-

     

    When I used to go to Chicago Bulls games at the Old Chicago Stadium parking was $5 and the fee to watch your car was $20. It was the only time I ever saw my old man pay the shakedown. This was early Jordan years so early to late 80s.
    9 Sep 2013, 07:43 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Ahhh, Mr. Holty. It sounds like it's such a successful business model it's gone global! lol
    9 Sep 2013, 08:01 PM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (495) | Send Message
     
    Ahhhh memories. I remember going to a Bulls game once and came out to find a small hole in the hood of my car. It looked like a pellet gun had been shot into it. It didn't go fully through and thus the engine wasn't damaged. It was a clunker car at that point anyway so I considered it a cool addition to its history.
    9 Sep 2013, 10:54 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    I want to see him do it in the winter. Be interesting to see what his kids think when he tells them they have to turn down the heater in the car and drive slower to make it to the next charging station. He'll probably bring a crowbar and a sledge hammer along, in case anyone is using one of the superchargers when he gets there.
    10 Sep 2013, 10:55 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4605) | Send Message
     
    Daimler said it will use Tesla Motors's (Nasdaq: TSLA) electric drivetrain for its compact B-Class electric vehicle, set to debut in early 2014, said the company's CEO.
    Copyright 2013, Street Insider News Provided by Acquire Media Corporation
    9 Sep 2013, 06:25 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Future world stuff.

     

    Zinc-air Battery Company Claims Novel Electrolyte Will Do The Trick (CT Exclusive)

     

    http://bit.ly/1axKlzT
    9 Sep 2013, 06:27 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    Monthly US sales report
    A good month for all cars particularly for below cost EVs
    The total for the year is 58,662 which is as of this month is higher than last year total and is a record month. All of which sounds like exceptional news for EVs until you look at the details.
    I think this article from Car and Driver explains the sales numbers.

     

    Throwing Money at Electrics
    Automakers are losing money on EVs, so why are they suddenly so cheap?
    http://bit.ly/1eaHgaL
    <If patience were a cashier’s check instead of a virtue, it’d be worth more than a quarter-billion dollars. Conceivably, that’s how much Chevrolet Volt and Nissan Leaf owners, who snapped up more than 50,000 of these plug-in electric vehicles from 2011 through 2012, could have saved had they waited until now.>
    Well the Volt with a $5,000 price drop had a stellar month.
    Volt sold 3,351 Aug up from 1,788 in July. It’s record and the first car with a plug to broach 3,000 in a month.
    The Leaf’s price cut is $6,400 but is not a new cut.
    The Leaf sold 2,420 up from 1,864 an all-time record for them as well.

     

    Tesla is estimated by insideevs at 1,300 this month 700 last month. Musk has apparently said they made a bit over 2000. 700 or so may be going to Europe. Hybrid Cars Dashboard has them estimated at 1,700.

     

    Chevrolet
    Spark continued it’s just over a hundred sold. 102 sold in Aug. 103 in July. A compliance car it seems.

     

    Mitsubishi
    i-MiEV: 30 sold in August. As they run out their inventory. Rumors of new models remain rumors.

     

    Coda gets a mention. They longer sells EVs but did make some inroads in the energy storage area. The new product will be Solar powered EV chargers which uses a CODA Core UDP energy storage 40 kWh battery pack.

     

    Fisker sold 5. There are rumors of the president quitting over money and a buyout offer of 25 million.

     

    Fiat admits they will lose 10,000 on each car sold. Car and driver’s opinion is Fiat believed it would cost less than buying the ZEV credits they needed.
    500e is another which won’t report numbers. Apparently 491 were made as they were all recalled. But not all have been delivered. Insideevs estimated 150 delivered in July 160 in August.
    Hybridcarsdashboard estimates 50 for the month and 85 for the year so far.
    Fiat did a small recall then recalled all of them. It seems the original fix didn’t work. I haven’t heard if the Second fix worked or not.

     

    During August, smart ED sales were aided by $2,000 worth of “dealer cash”
    Smart for 2ed sold 182 in Aug and 58 in July a triple over it’s best month.

     

    Honda is selling a limited number of compliance vehicles. Lease them out for a loss with unlimited mileage.
    Fit EVs had sold 66 Aug and 63 in July. There were 8 in inventory
    Accord Plug-In: 44 for Aug 54 in July

     

    Toyota offers 60 month 0% financing, deep discounts on 2013 inventory a cash back program for buyers and Leasing with unlimited millage.
    Rav4EV 231 sold Aug VS 109 Jul
    Prius Plug in sold 1,791 Aug 817 in July

     

    Ford
    Fusion Energi: A new record 600 in Aug. 407 in July
    C-Max Energi: 621 sold in Aug best month for the year. 433 July. (The had a recall in July but it was only 22 less than the previous month)
    Focus Electric: 175 in Aug 150 in july
    According to Car and Driver In July, Ford slashed the price of the Focus electric by $4000, and with continued factory rebates, the 2014 model now costs nearly $15,000 less than it did in 2012. By looking at the MSRP I only find a $5,000 difference. ($39,200 to $34,200)
    OTOH: Ford Prices Focus Electric at £33,500 ($52,330 US) in UK
    (That is $18,130 more than it is sold for here).
    http://bit.ly/1eaHgqZ

     

    One other point
    This year’s sudden price cuts, along with generous state incentives, have created a price “floor” that essentially wrecks the vehicle’s residual value almost immediately, Dixon says.
    They do expece EVs to hold their value a bit better in a few years from now.
    Of course they are starting out under water to begin with.

     

    Fun Fact
    Tesla says Roadsters have driven 37 million miles.
    http://bit.ly/JiXHis
    Volt claims 263 million miles on electricity.
    http://bit.ly/1eaHgr8
    9 Sep 2013, 07:40 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    Late addition
    Nissan clams 270 million miles for the Leaf.
    http://bit.ly/1eaKZoJ
    9 Sep 2013, 08:04 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    Fun fact – 37 million miles for the Roadster fleet works out to an average of 13.5 miles per car per day.

     

    Fair weather princesses.
    9 Sep 2013, 08:32 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (824) | Send Message
     
    Do we have any mileage estimates for the Model S?
    John, how did you get that average for the Roadster?

     

    The average car does what 12k/year or about 33 miles per day.
    9 Sep 2013, 08:54 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    I keep a Tesla spreadsheet that shows quarterly Roadster deliveries from Q4-08 through Q3-12. It assumes a mid quarter delivery date for all cars delivered in a quarter and then calculates total car days as of a given test date. As of 8-31-12 my spreadsheet says there were 2,407 Roadsters with a total of 2,740,455 car days.

     

    It's a silly statistic, but a fun one.
    9 Sep 2013, 09:55 PM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (495) | Send Message
     
    Sort of a morbid topic, but I keep wondering about the safety aspects of these electric cars with LI batteries, especially Tesla cars with so many now on the road. My first question was how come we haven't heard about any battery-related fires and explosions?

     

    A partial answer relates to the low mileage that these cars have been driven so far. In the US last year there was 1.1 fatalities per 100 million miles driven so the expectation for the roadster fleet might be about .4 fatalities. When you consider that California's rate is .87 fatalities per 100m miles and .61 for urban driving, the expectation for TSLA may be even lower. Add in the age of the buyers (presumably 21 year olds aren't buying TSLA cars) and the rate might be lower yet.

     

    However, only about 1% of car crashes that cause injury result in a death so to date you can expect that there probably have been 50-100 injuries from accidents involving Roadsters.

     

    While that is a relatively small number, when you consider all the electric cars on the road, you'd think that by now there would have been crashes where the batteries were damaged.

     

    Not sure how this would compare to the frequency of accidents where that gasoline ignites.

     

    Anyone have information on this subject? Has Tesla done a particularly good job protecting the batteries? Thanks.
    9 Sep 2013, 11:27 PM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (864) | Send Message
     
    @amp. You haven't heard of any fires or explosions because the lithium batteries Tesla and other all-electric cars use is lithium iron phosphate, which is inherently much safer than other lithium chemistries. I haven't heard a single case of one of these battery cells catching fire or exploding. Any associated fires I have heard about were from secondary factors like heat caused by a short circuit.
    10 Sep 2013, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    The only EV with a lithium-iron phosphate battery is the Chevy Spark. The rest use more traditional chemistries that are a good deal more prone to thermal runaway and other battery problems.

     

    You may not have heard about it, but Mitsubishi is going to take a $30 million hit because the batteries it used in the MiEV and Outlander have had several problems.

     

    http://aol.it/148yNhl
    10 Sep 2013, 11:16 AM Reply Like
  • thegreekgatsby
    , contributor
    Comments (54) | Send Message
     
    Let' s throw some pbc over assads head!
    9 Sep 2013, 07:46 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    Monthly sales report international
    Canada
    Chevy Volt sold 84 units in August.
    Nissan LEAF sold 56 units.
    Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid: 21
    Mitsubishi i-MiEV: 20
    Tesla unknown

     

    Iceland
    Number one is Mitsubishi sold 12 i-MiEVs
    Nissan LEAF sold 3.
    And Tesla MS sold 1.
    Norway
    The Chevy Volt, sold 477 YTD stands at 728.
    Can you say discount?

     

    Opel Ampera (plug-in hybrid) only sold 104 in Aug but YTD 812 is still tops.
    Todays news: Opel Slashes Over $10,000 Off Ampera Price
    http://bit.ly/13DkelW
    I expect they will sell more Amperas (In selected markets) next month.

     

    Nissan LEAF sold 51 with 266 LEAFs YTD.

     

    Renault Zoe sold 37.
    It looks like the initial demand might be waning.
    Tesla sold 5 with 8 YTD sales.

     

    France
    Renault ZOE sales fell to 198 1/5th the sales peak in March.
    Nissan LEAF set new record of 148 registrations in August
    Bolloré Bluecar: 20
    Citroen C-Zero, Peugeot iOn and Mitsubishi i-MiEV: 31
    Ford Focus Electric: 4
    Smart ED : 1
    Renault Fluence: 1
    YTD numbers are almost 50% better than last year with 5,674 registrations, of which 4,140 are Renault ZOE.

     

    Germany
    Opel Ampera sold 20 with 261 YTD).
    Nissan LEAF in August sold 147 YTD 666
    Renault ZOE sold 110 YTD total 651.
    BMW i3 registered 77 likely for demos sales start in Nov.
    Smart doesn’t provide sales data for its Fortwo Electric Drive in Germany. But Insideevs thinks they are selling well.
    Mitsubishi and Peugeot sold only 9 i-MiEVs and iOns in total.

     

    Japan
    Nissan LEAF sold 938 YTD 7,658. Near last years.

     

    No other EV’s sales were recorded for Aug in Japan. (That I’ve found.)
    9 Sep 2013, 09:27 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    I've been wondering where to put this; here is where I decided.
    I've been feeling that Norway needed a spotlight for a minute.

     

    Norway for number of reasons will likely lead the world in EVs . While the front loading of pollution happens elsewhere at least they will drive on a clean grid.

     

    I've talked about Norway's massive incentives. I understand there is no tax on EVs a 25% savings and $8,000 a year in perks.
    I have a series of articles on Norway here which give you an idea of what is going on and why.

     

    Norwegians Loves Their EVs, But 85% have Backup ICE
    http://bit.ly/14Ujj3d

     

    August Sets Electric Vehicle Sales Record For Norway; 6% of Market Grabbed by EVs…Tesla Model S an Immediate Hit
    http://bit.ly/14Ujj3f

     

    Record August Sales Is Only A Taste Of What’s to Come This Autumn In Norway; Buyers Now Importing EVs to Fulfill Demand
    http://bit.ly/14Ujj3h
    "Norwegians are importing, on their own, more used electric vehicles then most countries in Europe are selling new?
    In August alone, imports of used EVs stood at around 250. In fact, many of these vehicles may indeed be new and Norwegians might be importing them because of lower prices elsewhere in Europe."

     

    "Total new and used electric vehicle registrations, with a small amount of electric vans and plug-in hybrids, was almost 1,000 in Norway in August. 990 to be exact."

     

    "To date, Norway has 13,877 electrics and 585 plug-in hybrids registered."

     

    Likely other countries numbers are inflated as the cars are actually going to Norway.

     

    Not to forget Tesla
    Tesla Europe Deliveries Now In High Gear: 133 Model S Registered In First Week Of September In Norway
    " for a total of about 318 cars sold in the last 30 days.
    To give some context to how many 133 cars sold in a week is for Norway:
    That represents about 5% of the entire market
    The Tesla Model S is the best selling car for Norway so far in September"
    15 Sep 2013, 11:13 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1498) | Send Message
     
    Ironically, having large oil and gas supplies owned by the state means that the government can afford to give huge incentives for electric vehicles.
    16 Sep 2013, 06:25 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    I was in Stockholm earlier this year and spoke at meeting that included a couple of Norwegians who were eagerly awaiting their Teslas. They explained that a Model S was going to cost them about half what a big Mercedes or BMW would cost due to exemptions from Norway's huge VAT and other new auto taxes. By the time they got done going down the list of green incentives, there was no question that Tesla was the only way to go for a well-heeled Norwegian.
    16 Sep 2013, 06:29 AM Reply Like
  • danpm4life
    , contributor
    Comments (83) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco thanks for your previous Ford Auto Start-Stop post.
    http://bit.ly/15LK188

     

    In reviewing Stop-Start (S-S) posts for both GM’s Chevrolet Malibu (JCI AGM batteries) & the Ford Fusion (using "a more powerful 12-volt lead-acid absorbed glass matt (AGM) battery" from ?), both companies priced S-S @ approx. $300. However, Ford is selling S-S only on their $795 EcoBoost engine option. Re. the technology, the Ford post stated; “…Ford engineers developed unique algorithms for the brains of Auto Start-Stop – the computer programs that control it – and have filed more than 25 patents for engine and transmission control software functions.”

     

    Given the technology & performance differences between AGM & PbC batteries, the algorithms & software development by Ford, & the 4 + years of testing Axion’s PbC batteries by BMW, I made the assumption that an auto company will not be able to simply replace their AGM batteries with Axion’s PbC batteries & still have their S-S work as tested. I also assumed the same lock on BMW before I 1st invested in AXPW. So my questions: 1) Is there a possibility for a software/hardware technology bridge to facilitate the change, or are the Malibu & Fusion lines stuck with AGM batteries for S-S until significant new algorithms, software development & testing has been completed? 2) How outrageous is it to think that any bridge building could be an Axion product line, given Axion engineer’s knowledge of both battery types?

     

    In JP’s Nov 20 2012, 08:47 post, he said of AGM batteries, “…the batteries begin to degrade as soon as they're placed in service and within a few months a car that turned the engine off at every light when it was new can only turn the engine off once or twice during a commute. Idle elimination systems that don't function properly because of weak batteries can't save fuel.” At some point, the consumer will demand the higher performance & cost benefit of Axion’s PbC batteries, instead of replacing the S-S AGM batteries frequently, or a once or twice a commute engine shutdown. Consumer aware auto companies will have to respond. However, can Axion make some money by facilitating this bridge?
    9 Sep 2013, 10:29 PM Reply Like
  • JohnM121
    , contributor
    Comments (357) | Send Message
     
    I'm more pessimistic. People are not going to replace the battery. They will reject the entire concept, and warn their grandchildren about it. It's been 30 years since engines have needed to be warmed up, but the idea is still out there.
    9 Sep 2013, 11:30 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Danpm4life, The inclusion of a PbC battery in any application would require changes to the algorithms in the BMS and would also require hardware changes. The PbC battery also, as far as we know, requires that it be mated with a flooded battery for starting the vehicle as it will not pass the airport test. In this test the vehicle is left sitting for a period of time servicing "vampire" loads in the vehicle and then needs to be able to start the car.

     

    Any efforts to utilize the PbC battery with its unique characteristics would require that the battery go through full blow program development cycles at each automaker. This might be compressed some if the automaker felt that durability testing in the lab could be accommodated in a more efficient manner given what BMW has done thus far. All depends on what they know or could get access to as far as information.

     

    Any after market attempts to utilize the PbC battery as a replacement, once a vehicle was designed for AGM, could be done but would most likely be too expensive and very difficult without OEM engineering support. This because they would most likely have little incentive to do this and would not allow access to their proprietary coding in the vehicle body controller that manages how the battery would be charged and discharges in support of the vehicle electrical system.
    10 Sep 2013, 08:07 AM Reply Like
  • danpm4life
    , contributor
    Comments (83) | Send Message
     
    Thanks iindelco.

     

    With GM & Ford committed to AGM, once the upcoming 2017-25 fuel efficiency standards change, which will give extra credit for the “off-cycle” stop-start change from (EPA) estimated fuel economy ratings, they will likely not have any incentive to develop S-S for PbC batteries. I am afraid that US S-S automakers have become a huge missed opportunity. However, the foreign car market, hopefully following BMW’s lead, will provide significant sales opportunity for Axion’s PbC S-S technology.

     

    There is not enough consumer information out there re. S-S, to know if they will reject the S-S concept or stick to their desire to buy foreign if you want quality. But if GM’s press release re. their S-S Malibu is any guide, which recently got some highly favorable comments from Consumer Reports for the 2014 Malibu model,” The Malibu will be the first high-volume, gasoline-engine powered vehicle sold in the U.S. with start-stop standard on its lowest-price model.”, I would lean towards buy foreign if you want quality.
    10 Sep 2013, 04:27 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Danpm4life, I'd be cautious thinking that because GM and Ford went with AGM for base SS early on that they would apply this to all their vehicles with differing levels of electrification / functionality in the out years. I'd also caution that US regulators may require that the SS systems, that they offer credit for at some point, may need to function dependably for some lengthy period in order to get credit. Turning s SS system into an SLI only system after three months to a year might not be deemed robust.

     

    Be careful classifying all vehicles by any automotive group as better quality. One needs to compare by model and price range. Some foreign auto makers have some real dogs as well. Even some very expensive dogs.

     

    Also be careful confusing Consumer Reports initial assessment of GM's next gen. Malibu with what they might thing about the vehicles systems longer term. I tend not to care too much about many things they talk about and worry more about long term system durability and repair costs. For example, What might they think about the SS system after a year in Arizona?
    10 Sep 2013, 05:12 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (824) | Send Message
     
    What is very interesting is that I saw an article last night about the 2014 Malibu is that due to S/S and a new engine its gets the same mileage as the 2014 Malibu Hybrid for several thousand dollars cheaper. So in an attempt to stem their cratering sales in that model they went for a mid-cycle quick refresh and the jury is out if they will save the regular Malibu but they killed the Hybrid Malibu.
    10 Sep 2013, 05:48 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Also when they packaged the 2013 Malibu with launch assist they sacrificed some rear leg room. The press hammered them for it.

     

    The vehicle was too small to justify the system they installed for the limited functionality. By contrast it looks better on the Buick 4 banger when it's compared to the V6.

     

    Anyway, when you consider the competition in the segment the Malibu as presented didn't have a chance. GM needs to stop targeting "good enough" because it doesn't work when people have choices and the internet to educate themselves.
    10 Sep 2013, 06:07 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13441) | Send Message
     
    Government Motors tends to (go figure) behave in an autocratic manner.
    10 Sep 2013, 06:18 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3297) | Send Message
     
    There's a point of diminishing returns as we track further right on the electrification / hybridization scale. And has JP has documented, definitely that arrives as soon as you add a plug. But over to the left of the curve, there are increasing returns (to a point) as a car goes from Simple SS to heavy micro hybrid, to mild hybrid etc...

     

    bottom line, simple SS just isn't going to be worth the headaches to most drivers. There's got to be a sweet spot of degree of electrification that's going to play into PbC's hands... not so much electrification that you need/want Li-ion as in a full hybrid but not so little hybridization that any meager fuel economy savings just aren't worth the candle/cost/headaches of the system...

     

    Also, scalability. We know the PbC could be produced in the tens of millions a year if it needed to be. No material constraints like with NiMH or Li-ion. Oh, and cheap too.

     

    So the trick is for an OEM to design a mild-hybrid or heavy micro-hybrid car with a fairly high (but not too high) degree of electrification, such that it saves the maximum amount of fuel possible, while still allowing for a reasonable size/weight of PbC-based battery bank to make it all happen --- not requiring so much battery capacity that mass/volume issues start to dominate and militate against PbC, but neither requiring so little that the upgrade from EFB or AGM to PbC doesn't really make sense cost-wise.

     

    And whenever said OEM does arrive at that sweet spot, what they're going to find is that they have a solution that can really scale, one that both makes sense (saves money and is easy to live with) for the consumer, and because it can truly proliferate widely throughout their whole lineup, can really help the OEM with their overall fleet economy numbers in a meaningful bankable way...

     

    Without battery replacement conniptions.

     

    DTG 1539 PDT 10Sep2013
    10 Sep 2013, 08:53 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Well said 48.

     

    You'll notice the automakers are not going out of their way to show their hands in the micro hybrid categories.. That's because there is no obvious slam dunk solution.
    10 Sep 2013, 09:29 PM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (214) | Send Message
     
    >481086,
    "So the trick is for an OEM to design a mild-hybrid or heavy micro-hybrid car with a fairly high (but not too high) degree of electrification, such that it saves the maximum amount of fuel possible, while still allowing for a reasonable size/weight of PbC-based battery bank to make it all happen --- not requiring so much battery capacity that mass/volume issues start to dominate and militate against PbC, but neither requiring so little that the upgrade from EFB or AGM to PbC doesn't really make sense cost-wise. "

     

    The only aspect of your post that I differ on is that I believe all OEM's will create just these kinds of micro-hybrids & mild-hybrids. This is not an optional strategy for the auto OEM's and will be broadly applied across most models. The basic SS implementation has never made sense to me or the auto OEM's as evidenced by their not really producing same in any qty. Electrifying many components of upcoming vehicle models bring many efficiency's
    that will be needed to meet the new CAFE minimums and emission reductions. Such upgrades will require more of a battery than efLAB or AGM, but these could go to Li, NiMH or ??? rather than PbC.

     

    This is taking longer than I would prefer, but is more complex an upgrade than many Axionistas thought would be the case.

     

    The only significant/obvious obstacle to adoption of the PbC, IMHO, is the lack of a manufacturing partner to eliminate the sole-source concerns of ANY auto OEM.

     

    Finally, I think it completely bogus that there was an apparent 2+ hr delay in your posting being published. However, I am glad you have posted again and hope for more
    10 Sep 2013, 10:00 PM Reply Like
  • isthisonebetter
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    http://onforb.es/1dX3POY

     

    Is this a potential AXPW market?
    10 Sep 2013, 12:27 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    A couple years back Axion got an earmark contract to do some development work for the Navy's silent watch program. Sadly, the contract fell victim to budget cuts and what was supposed to be a multi-year project ended after the first year. The military market has a good deal of potential, but getting anything done with the military is tough because the process is so terribly political.
    10 Sep 2013, 05:28 AM Reply Like
  • isthisonebetter
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    Thanks JP,

     

    It's just like a shame because the PbC seems suited to this application. Oshkosh Truck, or more recently Oshkosh (OSK) has been prospering from military spending, would be nice to see them apply for a grant to work on this sort of thing. Everyone has their dreams; I suppose I'm no different.

     

    G
    10 Sep 2013, 08:51 PM Reply Like
  • Masi
    , contributor
    Comments (422) | Send Message
     
    Here is another article about a start-up company I own that is along those same lines.
    http://yhoo.it/18PRYfL
    CYPW
    11 Sep 2013, 11:38 AM Reply Like
  • Soonermba
    , contributor
    Comments (8) | Send Message
     
    So I am a new long at 13.5c, appreciate the interesting reader here. Anybody want to give me a couple of good reasons why this one might pay off. My biggest hesitation is that it seems they just traded 9m for 25percent plus of the company and I wonder what they will do in late 2014 about cash.

     

    I would also love any visibility about the true long range upside factoring the post pipe financing/stock situation that JP has described
    10 Sep 2013, 01:09 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    Soonermba,

     

    While most of us on this board are really not pleased at all with the pipe financing, we nevertheless recognize how the capital markets are being brutal to small cap companies and we take solace in knowing that Axion/s management had to take this deal because there was nothing else on the table.

     

    Having said that, you will notice that most people on this board are intelligent people who are very knowledgeable about the advanced battery business world. Axion's product represents a breakthrough in an otherwise plain old boring chemistry and it seems that the company has drawn some very serious attention from big business names who otherwise would have wasted millions and years testing the product if they didn't see any value in it.

     

    I would personally say that while the ride through hell has been much longer than expected, Axion's management would have never settled for the terms of the pipe deal financing if they didn't have complete confidence in the success of the product launch, and everything suggests that major news is on the way by late 2013, or before May 2014

     

    I hope this helps.

     

    A
    10 Sep 2013, 06:01 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    Axion is at the worst point in the life-cycle of any technology development company. The battery R&D is done. The manufacturing process development is done. A couple of customers have completed multi-year testing programs. Now the $64,000 question is will the customers buy? It's a time of maximum fear and a natural human tendency is to worry "what if nobody wants our battery?" It's enough to keep the stock price in the toilet and have folks scouring the net for any information they can find.

     

    The dynamic won't change until a credible customer steps up to the plate with a credible order, meaning an order to buy batteries for something other than testing. When that first customer arrives on the scene, perceptions will begin to change rapidly. Instead of asking, what if nobody wants the PbC, people will start thinking "if it's good enough for XYZ then it will certainly be good enough for ABC and DEF.

     

    Stock prices behave like pendulums. They tend to swing back and forth over time from periods of unbridled optimism to periods of overwhelming pessimism. They only touch fair value at bottom dead center during transitions. While the need for cash a year from now is interesting, market emotion and perception are far more important.

     

    Last September Tesla Motors was out of money and an objective observer could only conclude the company was likely to crash and burn because the stock was trading in the high $20s with a negative stockholders equity. But optimism was running high and Tesla pulled off a solid financing at $28.25. Eight months later it pulled off a much bigger financing at $125. With a little luck they'll hold their stock price at current nose bleed levels for another couple weeks and get $660 million of debt converted to equity.

     

    Axion's price is currently stuck at the pessimistic end of its arc. Sooner or later some event will begin to change perceptions. As the perception pendulum starts to move in the other direction so will the stock price. For now all I can do is hope and pray the event arrives before the need for more money arrives.
    10 Sep 2013, 06:22 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4605) | Send Message
     
    we take solace in knowing that Axion/s management had to take this deal because there was nothing else on the table.

     

    Axion's management would have never settled for the terms of the pipe deal financing if they didn't have complete confidence in the success of the product launch

     

    Amouna, I love your optimism or was it this deal or sell the company cause it was no other option ?
    10 Sep 2013, 06:12 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    LT,

     

    I am optimistic about Axion, otherwise I would have sold a while ago. I recognize times are tough, but also that there is no easy way to bring a new battery to market. If I am proven wrong then so be it.

     

    One has to take chances, I took mine on AXPW. Time will tell!
    10 Sep 2013, 06:27 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17253) | Send Message
     
    Computer brokenzie! No EOD today. But from memory, buy:sell ~1:4.7x, ~16% "buys". W/o early days big buys ($0.1350 ~200K) VWAP $0.1315, with them $0.1319.

     

    Culprits fighting on the ask BTIG, ATDF. ARCA mostly.

     

    Experimental metrics were mixed with a generally slight negative bias.

     

    IIRC, daily short % around 14% and some AH trades of 19K, if all shorts, would bump it up to ~16%?

     

    Again, from memory so ...

     

    Broken machine my Linux box. Fortunately I already had my HP Windows box set for dual-boot and had transferred files Sunday to the Linux on that box. In spite of no "official" support for Linux from ETrade, got power ETrade Pro up and running on the Linux boot.

     

    So, tonight s/b normal EOD but for missing yesterday's data, which I'll recover this weekend when new motherboard arrives.

     

    HardToLove
    10 Sep 2013, 08:29 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4605) | Send Message
     
    Tesla Motors dazzles at Frankfurt Auto Show
    Tesla Motors (TSLA) CEO detailed the planned rollout of the Model S in Europe during the company's ebullient presentation at the Frankfurt Auto Show.New stores are planned for a host of major cities across Europe - including Vienna, Amsterdam, Paris, London, and Geneva.Much of Europe will live within driving distance of a Supercharger station by the end of next year.
    10 Sep 2013, 08:31 AM Reply Like
  • brishwain
    , contributor
    Comments (84) | Send Message
     
    I'm listening to the smart transportation and urban mobility panel discussion that vanni is on in ny this am. For what its worth he said that NS will put the 999 into service in "late september, early october."
    10 Sep 2013, 10:51 AM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (828) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Brishwain, music to my ears!
    10 Sep 2013, 10:59 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the update Brishwain.

     

    Sum-mer later than others. :-(
    10 Sep 2013, 11:11 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    One of our friends who prefers to remain anonymous just e-mailed me a copy of Norfolk Southern's July 2012 grant application for ongoing work on battery testing.

     

    http://bit.ly/17NZskU

     

    There's some serious meat in the last three pages including several factoids I've not seen before. The PbC is clearly at the head of the class for now, but it will have to protect its lead against challengers.
    10 Sep 2013, 11:23 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    Thanks brishwain. Glad to hear someone was able to set up the streaming link for the panel discussion.
    10 Sep 2013, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17253) | Send Message
     
    I sure hope this time he's "authorized"!

     

    HardToLove
    10 Sep 2013, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Brishwain. Good news. Could be a matter of weeks.
    10 Sep 2013, 12:17 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    One of our friends who prefers to remain anonymous just e-mailed me a copy of Norfolk Southern's July 2012 grant application for ongoing work on battery testing.

     

    http://bit.ly/17NZskU

     

    There's some serious meat in the last three pages including several factoids I've not seen before. The PbC is clearly at the head of the class for now, but it will have to protect its lead against challengers.
    10 Sep 2013, 11:23 AM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    Thanks JP (and anonymous).

     

    It's interesting they are testing the Ultrabattery, but I shouldn't be surprised. From what I know of it, it should do well performance wise, but I have a hunch that it won't have the life cycle the PbC does.

     

    Time will tell.
    10 Sep 2013, 12:16 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    John, Thanks for sharing that document.

     

    The testing stands in stark contrast to the bubble gum and bailing wire set-up seen on the first iteration of the NS 999. Air flow is important. And shock/load management. Oh, access as well.
    10 Sep 2013, 12:26 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (731) | Send Message
     
    "the end date 12/31/2013"
    No matter what, an end is in sight. The Ultra Battery sounds like the only alternative that is being considered. I believe that the PbC stacks up very well against it but, they need at least one alternative.
    10 Sep 2013, 02:27 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    John,
    A couple things of note. One, the grant runs out at the end of the year, so one has to wonder how far they have gotten/will get with the Ultrabattery by then. I say that, because the other thing it says is that the Ultrabattery has done well in testing at Penn State in single battery tests, but it doesn't look like they've done large strng battery tests yet (or at least hadn't when this was published). The Ultrabattery is going to have a tough job competing with the string stability of the PbC. IMHO.
    10 Sep 2013, 02:38 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    The Ultrabattery just doesn't have the dynamic charge acceptance they need. It also uses lead on the negative side and that makes early death from sulfation unavoidable.
    10 Sep 2013, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    John, So wouldn't they learn this during individual unit testing in the lab? Thus they wouldn't even need to waste their time under more demanding conditions like string testing.
    10 Sep 2013, 03:13 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    IntraPacks web site for racking. Been around awhile so that's good. Lot's of rah rah shish boom bah as well.

     

    http://bit.ly/17UqvJC
    10 Sep 2013, 03:41 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    They wouldn't discover it immediately. You need to remember that this grant application was submitted in July of last year. In September one of East Penn's presentations at the ELBC said they were still involved in first round testing with NS and their battery seemed to be performing OK.

     

    http://bit.ly/13I7Z7x

     

    There's a big difference between "the PbC just finished the testing process" and "the Ultrabattery just started the testing process"
    10 Sep 2013, 04:16 PM Reply Like
  • amishelvis
    , contributor
    Comments (143) | Send Message
     
    It appears that NS has spent some time on thermal control/regulation. I don't suppose pbc is immune to better operation due to ideal temps.
    The govt grant that they got makes me just slightly cranky because in this case I think it has slowed down the roll out of the technology with NS. Well, maybe they will now have more to spend in that arena.
    10 Sep 2013, 04:27 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2322) | Send Message
     
    JP is it possible though that they'd just go with the "better" option over what LAB offered - as opposed to "best" (ie PbC) since they might want a partner who isn't a micro-cap? Heck didn't they move forward with LAB batteries after presumably some testing just 5 years back?
    10 Sep 2013, 07:51 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2322) | Send Message
     
    ii, I agree that NS flirting with Ultra makes me wonder if they are willing to settle for the second best mouse-trap for reasons other than performance. =(
    10 Sep 2013, 07:52 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    NS spent almost three years testing the PbC. It has been doing preliminary testing of the Ultrabattery for a little over one year. I don't believe for a minute that NS cares about whether Axion is a micro-cap because it's an end user of the batteries, rather than a manufacturer that has to have just in time delivery or risk shutting down production.

     

    The dynamics are totally different. An automaker can't afford to rely on a micro-cap as a critical link in its supply chain. An end user has a completely different set of rules to work with and only cares about one thing "Which Battery Will Save Us More Money?"
    10 Sep 2013, 08:13 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Bazooooka, One point I brought up when the NS/Penn State announcement came out on Corvus was that I thought they would want at least two options for batteries. After the first embarrassment I'd test a few options myself.
    10 Sep 2013, 08:14 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2322) | Send Message
     
    Should we expect the Ultra to continue testing in 2014 as well? Could another grant make this possible/probable.? I thought the thinking was that non-contenders get dismissed early in the game (maybe even in preseason). However, If Ultra made it past their rookie season what can we infer from that? I hope NS is just trying to appease policy makers but I fear that Axion might not be the slam dunk many of us presumed after the first NS order came in last year.
    10 Sep 2013, 08:52 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3297) | Send Message
     
    Makes sense that NS would want to get the racking right...and get the right racking. Especially if they're looking at numbers and copies for the future. Presumably they don't want to have to manufacture the racking in house for any serious production going forward, and would much rather have an expert supplier. Cobbling something together using internal resources might be okay for an initial prototype but not for real production. And thermal management, airflow, shock/vibration mitigation, accessibility, maintenance, corrosion resistance, g-tolerance... all these are not trivial items... so it makes sense that it would be a major part of the effort, and source of delay, to get of that all right --if serious production in any numbers is contemplated. The average person might just think of it as nothing more than a static shelf for the batteries, no big deal, just some welded metal, where anything will do.

     

    But no, clearly much more than that...

     

    DTG 1514 PDT 10Sep2013
    10 Sep 2013, 09:08 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    bazooooka, well we just don't know how long they will play with the Corvus and East Penn offerings. We do need to recognize though that with Penn State playing with both the energy storage units, the electronics, software, cooling, refresh cycles etc. they might not just dismiss an option based on initial less than stellar findings. Remember these guys are the ones crowing to the press about extending the life of LABs for locomotives. They are going to test, dissect, tweak and try again based on various findings. They will play until the money runs out and then raise a flag of success irrespective of the outcome. Send mo money and we'll get er' even further!
    10 Sep 2013, 09:19 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17253) | Send Message
     
    48: Missed you. Glad to see you here again!

     

    HardToLove
    10 Sep 2013, 09:25 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2322) | Send Message
     
    ii,
    I agree with you and I can see NS wanting to play nice with Penn State for as long of a runway as can be provided on someone else's dime. I fear though that Axion could be approaching a critical juncture come late 2014 and we for sure are going to be running low on dimes if a big fish doesn't take bait by then. Epower is good press and BMW likely won't come in till mid decade so it starting to feel like NS controls our destiny even though that's not their intention. I just don't think 8-10M lifelines can be raised indefinitely. Time to sell mouse traps - imo.
    10 Sep 2013, 10:23 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3297) | Send Message
     
    I'd be very interested to hear VW's take on the grant language and content.

     

    And more of Dr. B's insight regarding a deeper comparison/contrast of the UB and the PbC.

     

    I find I still have this series of nagging, lingering questions regarding the two that just won't go away. There must be more to the whole UB-PbC-EP-AXPW story and something we must be missing in it somewhere. The fact that the UB exists at all and is (apparently) still being taken seriously raises a host of questions...

     

    We've had Dr. B tell us the UB doesn't work, that it is fatally flawed (if IIUC).
    JP points out that UB doesn't have the dynamic charge acceptance that an application such as NSC's needs.
    And then there's sulfation.
    And yet. And yet EP persists with it. And somehow it's finding its way into testing in some of the same spaces we are.
    ==> Something doesn't fully compute.

     

    I can only conclude that the diagrams we have seen illustrating the UB internal structure as compared to the PbC must, IMHO, be over simplified. The diagram purports to show UB negative electrodes which are half lead and half carbon all bathed in the same electrolyte. IE, in parallel. Very similar functionally, it would seem, to an AGM and a PbC simply ganged externally in parallel. I believe JP has described the UB's carbon electrode portion of their battery as being like a lead negative electrode dipped in (carbon) chocolate sauce. My question is, why does this work? How could it work even half as well as Axion's more sophisticated electrode design? And if it does work what are the relevant implications? As I said, the fact that the UB continues to exist at all is something of an enigma. Now what if EP say, wanted to make a full-on PbC-like battery of their own? Is it (UB's carbon portion) any kind of viable approach to an alternate style of full PbC? I mean couldn't they just dip the whole negative electrode in the chocolate sauce instead of just half? What would be the result? How would it perform compared to Axion's PbC? I have to think not nearly as well, because with all the years of optimization work Axion has put into their own carbon electrode design, it's just got to be superior to the chocolate sauce product, no? Of course, if somehow that's not true, if UB's simpler carbon electrode technology is somehow as good as or even better than ours is, well that pretty much blows our whole Axion (FTW!) thesis right out of the water doesn't it? But no, I don't really believe that. I have to believe that Axion's full-bore bionanocarbon electrode approach/design is genuinely superior to EP/UB's. By at least some amount. Okay, so if that is true, then why doesn't/hasn't EP tried to make what would presumably be a much *better* UB by using the *Axion* electrode design? Wouldn't that behoove them? And as I've stated before, if so, why even put the two halves in the same case at all? What is the point of so intimately paring the two dissimilar electrodes/chemistries internally in the same case? Just to make it smaller and look like a regular car battery? That doesn't make sense. It still seems to me you'd get a much better ultrabattery than UltraBattery itself (if that's what you want) simply by paralleling a high quality AGM externally with a genuine Axion PbC. So why continue the UB charade? Why even trouble to test the kludgey UB when you can get similar UB-like characteristics, if that's what you want, (and very likely superior) simply by configuring the right external arrangement of AGMs + PbCs and then testing that? The only answer I guess is that the current UB is what EP *has*, not what they would like to have. And maybe they're just not willing to pay an Axion premium to get there. I dunno. It makes my head hurt. I think JP has said that EP is primarily making/marketing Ultrabatteries in much larger stationary formats anyway. Formats for which Axion electrodes don't exist as yet. Maybe that's the whole answer. But the continued existence of UB still strikes me as a very very curious fact. It's neither fish nor fowl. And yet presumably it lives. And further NSC will look / is looking/ or has looked at it. Is it just an exercise for them? Only useful as a comparison data point? A "Brand X" to help confirm their Axion choice? Curiouser and curiouser.

     

    One last curiosity, and JP, if you can share, it might be most enlightening I would think.... but did ePower ever look at/consider/test UB?

     

    Ok, now best to all, whatever slings and arrows may fly... ;)

     

    10 Sep 2013, 10:36 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Bazooooka, Understood. I will remind you though that while Uncle Sam is throwing in dimes NS is also throwing in that and then some. Penn State, well they will just keep dancing as long as the other parties are buying tickets. I'm not saying they add no value it's just that they don't have to deal with "S*&t or get off the pot". One of the reasons college professors were rated as the least stressful job in a recent Yahoo article.

     

    I must admit that I never expected NS to fart around so long. NS is a surprise to me.
    10 Sep 2013, 10:55 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    48, Unfortunately Dr. Buiel has indicated he will not be posting any more. Here is an old post of his on the topic. Let's see if this works.

     

    http://bit.ly/11aAefn
    10 Sep 2013, 11:16 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1498) | Send Message
     
    I think Axion being named in the NS Sustainability Report says a lot about the credibility of the PbC and their satisfaction with it. The data that I have seen would indicate that the UB is not up to par with the PbC.
    11 Sep 2013, 12:39 AM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2322) | Send Message
     
    Yeah, Hopefully Ed (or Rick) will chime in if they are reading these posts.
    11 Sep 2013, 02:51 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4605) | Send Message
     
    48...good to hear from you, I have had the same questions and posted them long ago.

     

    My only addition to your post is:

     

    TG basically sold 1/3 of the company for $9-10 million this last financing. So if the PbC is that much better and has that large a market, why wouldn't East Penn or someone have fronted the cash and took a stake in AXPW ... then have the tech for pennies. ? It just doesn't add up. These days a few million is pocket change.
    11 Sep 2013, 04:55 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13441) | Send Message
     
    LT, its all about control. The convertible note contract has a long list of provisions designed to prevent new investors from exerting real power in the board room. The recent shuffling of directors is also designed to accomplish the same end.
    11 Sep 2013, 08:35 AM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1401) | Send Message
     
    Exactly... any large strategic investor is going to want some exclusivity.
    11 Sep 2013, 10:46 AM Reply Like
  • brishwain
    , contributor
    Comments (84) | Send Message
     
    he also said that w ePower system they are seeing an addl 3 mpg for fully loaded class 8 trucks, from 5 to 8 mpg, and from 5 - 13 mpg for half loaded trucks
    10 Sep 2013, 11:46 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2483) | Send Message
     
    Brishwain,

     

    Good to see you still hanging around.
    10 Sep 2013, 12:29 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1212) | Send Message
     
    "he also said that w ePower system they are seeing an addl 3 mpg for fully loaded class 8 trucks, from 5 to 8 mpg, and from 5 - 13 mpg for half loaded trucks"

     

    WOW
    10 Sep 2013, 12:54 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (828) | Send Message
     
    Sure seems like this would bode very well for the European market, where IIRC, maximum load weights are less than the US.
    10 Sep 2013, 01:59 PM Reply Like
  • thegreekgatsby
    , contributor
    Comments (54) | Send Message
     
    "What is PBC
    By Linie Moore

     

    Primary Biliary Cirrhosis (PBC) is a chronic liver disease that slowly destroys the bile ducts within the liver (intrahepatic bile ducts). Liver inflammation over a period of years may cause scarring which leads to cirrhosis. PBC is NOT alcohol or drug related, and it is NOT contagious."

     

    If we don't see some sales soon, that will remain the only use of the term "pbc"
    10 Sep 2013, 12:40 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (968) | Send Message
     
    haha, this disease is auto immune. slow liver failure, but good candidate for liver transplant.
    10 Sep 2013, 04:18 PM Reply Like
  • obieephyhm
    , contributor
    Comments (1558) | Send Message
     
    don't start me on transplants . . .
    10 Sep 2013, 04:28 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1212) | Send Message
     
    Maxwell Technologies Supplying Ultracapacitors To Caterpillar For Energy Recuperation, Power Assist In Fuel-Efficient Hybrid Mining Shovel
    http://bit.ly/18S2t0F
    10 Sep 2013, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2093) | Send Message
     
    New pr release on SA for Axion. http://bit.ly/17U9WNR
    10 Sep 2013, 01:21 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2483) | Send Message
     
    Interesting ... the PR machine is starting to grumble. I like the laying out of the specs and Viridity's continued connection.
    10 Sep 2013, 01:37 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    Is it just me, or is this a rather strange PR? It's saying that Axion "believes" it's PowerCube can be used for the California initiative and is taking proposals. Ummm...so why is that news?
    10 Sep 2013, 02:09 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2483) | Send Message
     
    Labtech,

     

    It's not news as such, but it does show a renewed effort to discuss what they are doing on an ongoing basis.
    10 Sep 2013, 02:20 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13441) | Send Message
     
    Its a setup for news (probably already in hand). IE, I think we might be hearing soon that they have made sales in Cali...

     

    At least, that is the hope.
    10 Sep 2013, 02:21 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    TB, "Its a setup..." ;-D
    10 Sep 2013, 02:37 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    What would be the cost per MW for various utilities and solar project developers, assuming the PC is sold at cost? I can't remember now if we had discussed on this topic before...
    10 Sep 2013, 03:14 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17253) | Send Message
     
    LabTech: The real news, for me, is that they are talking about produce and possibilities publicly. They are, apparently, doing something that may offset the pps weakness, longer-term, that shows again today with "financiers" having new shares in hand.

     

    Better late than never I guess.

     

    HardToLove
    10 Sep 2013, 03:24 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1498) | Send Message
     
    My guess is that the California Initiative has some very demanding requirements that perhaps most systems do not meet. Being able to meet the requirements of the CI may put Axion in a nice position.
    11 Sep 2013, 02:15 AM Reply Like
  • timzinski
    , contributor
    Comments (81) | Send Message
     
    Axion Power's PowerCube™ Powered By PbC® Batteries a Potential Provider In California's Energy Storage Mandate

     

    http://tinyurl.com/pz9...

     

    Company Seeking Partners to Assist in Joining California's Energy Storage Initiative

     

    NEW CASTLE, Pa., Sept. 10, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Axion Power International, Inc., (OTC QB: AXPW), the developer of advanced lead-carbon PbC® batteries and energy storage systems, announced today that it believes its PowerCube™ battery energy storage system will qualify as a potential provider in California's new proposed state mandate calling for the creation of 1.3 gigawatts of energy storage to support the state's power grid by 2020 (and beginning in 2014). Axion has initiated discussions and will be entertaining proposals from potential strategic partners to assist them in joining the California energy storage initiative.

     

    Posted this before I saw the previous posts.
    10 Sep 2013, 01:56 PM Reply Like
  • JohnM121
    , contributor
    Comments (357) | Send Message
     
    Not sure if we're seen this number, but it may have been a few years ago. PBC cube has "...55 millisecond response time..."

     

    It seems that this could be part of just about any storage system. In a computer analogy, PBC is the fast cache memory. It's thousands of times faster than a rotating hard disk.
    10 Sep 2013, 04:37 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    JohnM121, there are many of us here who think the same. My hope is that everyone will come to the realization that a single battery chemistry does not a solution make. Second hope is that Axion is still around when this happens...
    10 Sep 2013, 05:15 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    Looks like somebody(s) just bought +/- 500,000 shares on the new and the price dropping below $0.13/share.
    10 Sep 2013, 02:02 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (828) | Send Message
     
    US auto fuel efficiency hits record high

     

    http://nbcnews.to/15heWxz
    10 Sep 2013, 02:04 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Photo of the JR Freight hybrid loco HD300-1 which is the first Japanese production unit. Looks like it's still out and about. Uses lithium ion from the same supplier as Boeing. I'm "Green" with envy! :-P

     

    http://bit.ly/17Uk8py
    10 Sep 2013, 02:47 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2093) | Send Message
     
    ii,
    Sure is pretty, hope they have lots of smoke alarms and fire insurance (boeing, boeing). :-0
    10 Sep 2013, 03:31 PM Reply Like
  • danpm4life
    , contributor
    Comments (83) | Send Message
     
    Thanks iindelco re. my earlier AGM, PbC bridge questions. “The inclusion of a PbC battery in any application would require changes to the algorithms in the BMS and would also require hardware changes.”

     

    With GM & Ford committed to AGM, once the upcoming 2017-25 fuel efficiency standards change, which will give extra credit for the “off-cycle” stop-start change from the (EPA) estimated fuel economy ratings, I believe both GM & Ford will likely not have any incentive to develop S-S for PbC batteries. I am afraid that US S-S automakers have become a huge missed opportunity. However, the foreign car market, hopefully following BMW’s lead, can still provide significant sales opportunity for Axion’s PbC S-S technology.

     

    There is not enough consumer information out there re. S-S, to know if they will reject the S-S concept or stick to their desire to buy foreign if you want quality. But if GM’s press release re. their S-S Malibu is any guide, which recently got some highly favorable comments from Consumer Reports for the 2014 Malibu model,” The Malibu will be the first high-volume, gasoline-engine powered vehicle sold in the U.S. with start-stop standard on its lowest-price model.”, I would lean towards buy foreign if you want quality.
    10 Sep 2013, 05:05 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4605) | Send Message
     
    Ballard Power (BLDP) and its consortium partners have received approximately $6.7M in funding from the U.S. Federal Transit Administration under the National Fuel Cell Bus Program to deploy two next-generation fuel cell buses, as well as for the extended operation of two existing Ballard-powered buses.
    10 Sep 2013, 05:47 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4605) | Send Message
     
    BLDP will deliver its next-generation fuel cell power module - the FCvelocity-HD7 - to BAE Systems (BAESY.PK) for incorporation into its HybriDrive propulsion systeml.
    Two FCvelocity-HD7 power modules will be assembled in America and are expected to be delivered in 2014 in support of deployments with the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority in Ohio and with Tompkins Consolidated Transit Authority in Ithaca, New York.
    10 Sep 2013, 05:48 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1498) | Send Message
     
    1.6M+ per bus; sounds like they are getting a real bargain.
    11 Sep 2013, 07:24 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13441) | Send Message
     
    Doesn't include fuel, I should imagine, or maintenance.

     

    My personal problem with hydrogen as a fuel has to do with the cost of creating, storing, transporting and dispensing hydrogen (the explosive escape artist), plus the fact that most hydrogen is produced from large amounts of fossil fuels plus electricity (itself generated by fossil fuels). One of the logical slams against corn ethanol, for instance, is that its cost is high (high government subsidies are needed to make it economically viable as a fuel) and it yields only a little more net energy than is spent to create it in the first place. The same odd bookkeeping goes on with hydrogen as well...

     

    It is thought that we are one breakthrough away from a method of creating limitless quantities of hydrogen for virtually nothing, but like all pending breakthroughs (a certain battery situation springs to mind) it can take a very long time to achieve. In the meantime, we have a cultural bias toward getting the wagon development in front of the donkey, er, "breakthrough".
    11 Sep 2013, 08:43 AM Reply Like
  • footleg
    , contributor
    Comments (26) | Send Message
     
    I recently saw a Ford commercial, and was really struck by the way that the voiceover pronounced "EcoBoost." If I hadn't looked at the bottom of the screen and seen the logo, I would have sworn that the person said, "Ego Boost."

     

    Now I understand that, psychologically, I may be grafting my own issues on to my perceptions, but this seemed really clear - granted, not so gratuitous as "Be mo'" for BMO Harris Bank, but still a little audacious in the flaunting of subliminal messaging.
    10 Sep 2013, 06:01 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Continental presents new “48 Volt Eco Drive” system; orders received and production begins in 2016

     

    http://bit.ly/1d4jLfv
    10 Sep 2013, 06:42 PM Reply Like
  • jcrjg
    , contributor
    Comments (172) | Send Message
     
    Can anyone explain what the score of 94 out of 100 referenced in the press release means?

     

    thanks.
    10 Sep 2013, 07:28 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (824) | Send Message
     
    IIRC and I certainly could be wrong. The higher the score means a higher priority when a request goes out. So if you assume at any one time that several people state they can provide service the highest score wins. The higher score also gets a higher rate due to the quality.

     

    The part I don't understand is if the grid wants x can the cube bid for x at a certain rate but lose to nat gas peaker which has a lower score and slower response but is willing to accept a cheaper rate?
    10 Sep 2013, 08:04 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17253) | Send Message
     
    Jcrjg: I don't recall all the details, but I do recall that if the score drops below a certain level they have to re-qualify.

     

    I also recall that a higher score gives a better chance for being selected in the bid process.

     

    HardToLove
    10 Sep 2013, 08:18 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    Jcrig
    As the article said it was complicated. There are a few things I remember.
    One is the speed of response. Both taking In and sending power out onto the grid. How soon did you respond?

     

    How much energy can you accept or discharge how fast?
    Faster speed more points. I don't mean bigger is better; If two setups are the same size (Say a mWh) who can take the most energy (Charge acceptance or discharge) the quickest? More points for this.

     

    Another was reliability. Did you respond at all? Or for some reason were you off line. More reliable more points.
    Also more points = more pay.
    And as HTL said not enough points in a period you have to requalify.

     

    Those are the ones I can remember. There may be more I've not heard of or forgot.
    10 Sep 2013, 10:31 PM Reply Like
  • jcrjg
    , contributor
    Comments (172) | Send Message
     
    mr holty, htl, and froggey,

     

    thanks for your answers. What you all wrote is consistent with what I remember, I believe this was discussed on one of the previous conference calls. It would be interesting to know how this score compares to competitive technologies.
    11 Sep 2013, 07:50 AM Reply Like
  • AInvestor
    , contributor
    Comments (9) | Send Message
     
    While I appreciate the update from the press release, I don't really understand the point of it as it just means that Axion is aspiring to be a provider. A similar press release can be made for their relationship with NS, BMW etc, which effectively does not mean much till they actually win something.
    10 Sep 2013, 07:33 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    The California market is looking for solutions and the only way to let the market know you have a solution is to get out front and get loud.

     

    BMW and NS are identified potential customers. In California even the customers don't know who they are yet. Hopefully the press release is just the beginning of a more concerted push to bring the PbC to the attention of new market participants.
    10 Sep 2013, 08:17 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    AInvestor
    It was an advertisement.
    Who'd of thunk it?

     

    Axion believes their PJM number 94+ with a 55 millisecond response time is high enough to get some interest. RFPs.

     

    "The PowerCube has achieved an average daily score above 94 (out of 100) on the complex PJM scoring methodology due in part to the asset's 55 millisecond response time. Axion's experience with PJM, and their proven track record of 94 plus scores, would seem to place the PowerCube in an excellent position to take advantage of the California initiative. "

     

    If the price is right on their RFPs they may get some sales.

     

    BTW
    IIRC TG said it was 94.6 on a cc.
    10 Sep 2013, 10:43 PM Reply Like
  • obieephyhm
    , contributor
    Comments (1558) | Send Message
     
    otoh -- it *is* a press release which is far superior to enduring endless silence . . .
    10 Sep 2013, 07:46 PM Reply Like
  • alpha5one
    , contributor
    Comments (127) | Send Message
     
    Scientists Calculate the Energy Required to Store Wind and Solar Power On the Grid

     

    Sep. 9, 2013 — Renewable energy holds the promise of reducing carbon dioxide emissions. But there are times when solar and wind farms generate more electricity than is needed by consumers. Storing that surplus energy in batteries for later use seems like an obvious solution, but a new study from Stanford University suggests that might not always be the case.

     

    http://bit.ly/1aAOMtZ
    10 Sep 2013, 07:50 PM Reply Like
  • danpm4life
    , contributor
    Comments (83) | Send Message
     
    alpha5one – good post - While making the case that storing surplus energy in ‘known’ (my emphasis) battery types for later use does not provide their "energy return on investment" -- the amount of energy produced by a technology, divided by the amount of energy it takes to build and maintain it.”, a later Stanford University Study paragraph suggests Axion’s PbC is the answer:

     

    “Increasing the cycle life of a battery would be the most effective way to improve its energetic performance, Barnhart added. Conventional lithium-ion batteries last about four years, or 6,000 charge-discharge cycles. Lead-acid batteries only last about 700 cycles. To efficiently store energy on the grid, batteries must endure 10,000 to 18,000 cycles, he said.”

     

    Somebody from Axion ought to send colleges that do these studies, some information about PbC specs. These graduates will likely lead the next round of development & would consider Axion as part of the equation. Since Stanford is in CA, some Axion engineer, should hit this study with a correction to leverage the PowerCubes intro into California's Energy Storage Mandate
    11 Sep 2013, 12:58 AM Reply Like
  • alpha5one
    , contributor
    Comments (127) | Send Message
     
    Very good idea, danpm4life. I hope some Axionista going to the Investor's day will bring it up with the folks at Axion.
    11 Sep 2013, 11:55 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    My read. Most of the benefit in storage is deferment of investment for transmission/distribution upgrades or fixing green energy investments that were losers to begin with. Great.

     

    How to Value Grid Storage, Case by Case

     

    http://bit.ly/1aBUR9n
    11 Sep 2013, 07:17 AM Reply Like
  • danpm4life
    , contributor
    Comments (83) | Send Message
     
    http://yhoo.it/1arINEl

     

    iindelco @ the bottom of your “How to Value Grid Storage, Case by Case (9/9/13) post, I found the reason for Axion’s 9/10/13 PowerCube Press Release (PR). “This week’s Energy Storage North America conference is taking place in San Jose, CA 9/10/13 - 9/12/13. What better time to release a PR but at the beginning of an CA energy storage conference. Between the conference speakers & sponsors, there is a sales call list of folks & companies that could keep Axion calling for an extended period of time. Now, if Axion only had some spare sales folks to call on them. But Axion’s PR shows they are at least paying attention.

     

    http://www.esnaexpo.com

     

    I would still like it if Axion addressed how many cycles the PbC can endure relative to Stanford storage study: “To efficiently store energy on the grid, batteries must endure 10,000 to 18,000 cycles, he said.” While the How to Value Grid Storage & the “deferment of investment for transmission/distribution upgrades or fixing green energy investments…” are important parts of the overall cost/benefit equation, the simplicity of the Stanford model can provide an easy comparison to other battery technologies & get Axion a foot in the sales door, assuming Axion could use the cycle numbers similar to results of the BMW testing.

     

    http://bit.ly/1aAOMtZ
    11 Sep 2013, 05:54 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    While I like a lot of Dr. Barnhart's work, his estimates of battery cycle life in grid storage applications are too optimistic for words.
    11 Sep 2013, 06:16 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Yep, Another vehicle company saving the planet with a plug.

     

    BMW unveils production i8 plug-in hybrid; 94 mpg; on sale in US in 2014 priced from $135,925

     

    http://bit.ly/1aBVD6d
    11 Sep 2013, 07:26 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    With the take off of energy storage systems and smart grid technologies in the coming decade, I see other opportunities to profit from this "boom".
    Power assets like Axion powercube will become - hopefully- more prevalent, therefore generating a stream of cash flows for their owners. With the current investing environment being as it is and most people looking for yield anywhere, one can easily predict a market will take off in the securitization of these new assets. Typically, Collateralized Power Vehicles whose investors will collect cash flows generated by the likes of the Powercube, and other power assets.

     

    By the way, this trend has already started in solar:

     

    http://bit.ly/15jkE20

     

    Any thoughts, comments are of course welcome
    11 Sep 2013, 07:29 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Johnson Controls to debut production-ready micro hybrid system

     

    "The micro battery system will use a 12-volt lead-acid starter battery and a 48-volt lithium ion battery, with the latter designed to capture energy quickly from braking, and support energy-intensive features such as air conditioning and active chassis technologies, the company said. In addition to starting the car, the 12-volt battery will be tapped to run interior and exterior lights as well as radios and DVD players.".

     

    http://bit.ly/14L5vTg
    11 Sep 2013, 07:42 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    IINDelco,
    I wonder how long the testing will take for them?

     

    "The Glendale firm unveiled a prototype version of the technology in January, and is now preparing to ship the first generation of the battery to automakers for testing in December."
    11 Sep 2013, 12:47 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Labtech, I'm guessing we're still looking at targeted production in the 2016 or later MY. You can bet they have been talking with the OEM's for some time and prototype testing has already happened for a year or more. This is not occurring in a vacuum.
    11 Sep 2013, 01:55 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2483) | Send Message
     
    "In a presentation late last year, Johnson Controls forecast that the global market for automotive batteries will double between 2012 and 2017, to $53 million from $26 million."

     

    These numbers seem low.
    11 Sep 2013, 09:46 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4605) | Send Message
     
    I posted this earlier too....and our gracious APC host deleted it.

     

    Along with having SA delete the VW post about their plans on electric autos.

     

    btw...stock currents are hard to paste a link to for me
    11 Sep 2013, 11:09 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Stefan, Obviously something got lost in this number like perhaps it reflecting one segment of the automotive battery market or moving from the B word down to the M word.
    11 Sep 2013, 11:21 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    Those should be Billions, not millions.
    11 Sep 2013, 11:31 AM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (425) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » Check your source as to who deleted your comments. Other than replies you made to others that were deleted, here's the only recent deletion by APC.
    ============
    LT Comments (2072)

     

    It's really pitiful that you endorse vandalism and gloat in it because of your opinion.
    but then earlier bashed someone for correcting you and telling the other side of lithium and u told them not to write here.....
    19 Nov, 04:44 PM
    ====================
    11 Sep 2013, 12:11 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (828) | Send Message
     
    I don't recall any recent discussion about BMW fleet testing. IIRC, this was an "any month now" situation at the beginning of the year. Does the sole source supply issue need to be totally ironed out before a fleet testing would occur? If not, could a BMW fleet testing announcement occur at any time? Would they even announce it, and if not, is there any chance they're already in a limited fleet testing situation? --- Perhaps an overly speculative situation, but any insights would be appreciated. --- Thanks.
    11 Sep 2013, 09:48 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    Fleet testing is one of those things that would NOT be a mandatory disclosure under SEC rules even though stockholders might find it important. Even if you want to think in terms of $500 per car, a 100 unit fleet test would only generate $50,000 in revenue to Axion, which puts it squarely into the optional disclosure category under SEC rules.

     

    It's clear to me that BMW has tightly controlled information for the last four years. If they decided that they wanted to do a fleet test and keep it away from the public eye all they'd have to do is tell Axion "sell us the batteries and keep your mouth shut." Without the ability to point to SEC rules and say "but the rules make this a mandatory disclosure" Axion would have no choice but to keep its mouth shut.

     

    For several months we've been told that BMW is pushing Axion to enter into a cooperative agreement with one of its first tier suppliers. While there's lots of reasons for Axion to be cooperative, there's no reason for another battery manufacturer to devote any effort, much less spend any money, unless BMW is dangling a carrot that's much juicer than a fleet test. My guess is that BMW has already done all the testing it needs to do and the process has advanced to production planning.
    11 Sep 2013, 10:20 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    WIO, I would think BMW would like to see the sole source agreement ironed out by certain stages of the programs that might be targeted. This reduces their risk. That being said, I'm sure they have timelines with key milestones that need to be achieved and they are discussed at lease bi-weekly with Axion and their potential partners. As long as progress is being made to hit key commitment dates and any targeted program timing is not put in jeopardy all is well. But don't expect BMW to reduce any pressure for the parties to move forward. It's just plain good business to hold a knife over the intended parties to keep things moving and not to give any of the respective parties unintended advantage.

     

    All BMW can do is offer the honeymoon suite. It's up to the targeted tier one's and the balance of the supply chain to figure out if vows will be exchanged.
    11 Sep 2013, 10:40 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2483) | Send Message
     
    Does anyone have a link to the Agrion webcast? Did Vani have anything more to say?
    11 Sep 2013, 10:33 AM Reply Like
  • brishwain
    , contributor
    Comments (84) | Send Message
     
    "Does anyone have a link to the Agrion webcast? Did Vani have anything more to say

     

    there were about 20 panelists so he only spoke a few times, and pretty much I noted the only 2 significant statements:

     

    1. the 999 will be put into service in late sept/early oct
    2. the ePower class 8s get up to 8mpg when fully loaded and up to 13mpg when 1/2 loaded (from 5mpg normally without ePower)
    11 Sep 2013, 01:00 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3886) | Send Message
     
    "5mpg normally without dPower" is a understatement of probable actual mpg IIRC. My understanding is that diesel engines produced in the past 5 - 10 years would normally burn 6mpg - 7mpg. 5mpg might apply to an engine nearing the end of its useful life.
    11 Sep 2013, 09:16 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    According to the EPA's Smartway Program the average fuel consumption for the 3,000+ Class 8 fleets they monitor is 6.0 mpg with an average payload of 20 tons. By the time you get to fully loaded Class 8 the number is significantly worse.

     

    Fuel Economy:

     

    http://1.usa.gov/16mWi2L

     

    Average Payload

     

    http://1.usa.gov/16O0zNu
    11 Sep 2013, 10:14 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    D-Inv,

     

    "My understanding is that diesel engines produced in the past 5 - 10 years would normally burn 6mpg - 7mpg."

     

    More like 5-6 mpg if we go back 10 years and 6-7 mpg if we go back 5 years...
    11 Sep 2013, 10:23 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    While the claims of 6 to 7 are pretty common Tim, the realities shown in the SmartWay fleet tracking data are not as rosy.

     

    The SmartWay Trends, Indicators, and Partner Statistics (TIPS) series of web pages are an amazing source of condensed aggregated data from over 3,000 SmartWay partner fleets.

     

    http://1.usa.gov/15TNfxp
    12 Sep 2013, 06:55 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3886) | Send Message
     
    Do we have an issue here with class 8 versus class 8B? Brishwain's report on Dantam's remarks referenced class 8 trucks. I expect class 8A trucks have smaller engines than the class 8Bs.
    12 Sep 2013, 08:45 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3886) | Send Message
     
    :-) So you are saying tighter EPA emission regs have reduced mpg.
    12 Sep 2013, 08:47 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    The EPA regulations do not differentiate between Class 8A and Class 8B. The SmartWay program does because it recognizes that different fleets use their trucks differently.

     

    Using the SmartWay classification system Class 8A ranges from 33,000 to 60,000 pounds of gross combined vehicle weight while Class 8B ranges from 60,000 to 80,000 pounds.

     

    Under the new EPA regulations, the presumptive gross combined vehicle weight of all Class 8 trucks ranges from 65,500 for a day cab with a low roof profile to 70,500 for a sleeper cab with a high roof profile. It's one of the most confusing regulatory morasses I've encountered in my career.

     

    The EPA emissions targets for 2017 are based on CO2 emissions per ton mile of cargo weight and vary with the nature of the tractor. For a high roof sleeper cab the requirement is 72 grams per ton-mile with a 19 ton payload, or 1,368 grams per mile for the vehicle. That works out to a 2017 target of 7.4 mpg.
    12 Sep 2013, 09:16 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    "While the claims of 6 to 7 are pretty common Tim, the realities shown in the SmartWay fleet tracking data are not as rosy."

     

    So you are saying that published numbers by Smartway are somehow more accurate than someone in the business with assets in the years in question? who also covered all terrain in the lower 48?

     

    You are sounding like a bean counter <smile>...
    12 Sep 2013, 08:13 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    As I understand the SmartWay Program over 3,000 fleet owners regularly report their miles driven, loads and fuel consumption to the EPA which does detailed statistical analysis on the industry as a whole. If that understanding is accurate, then the data collected by the EPA from a huge population would be more representative than the experience of a single fleet owner.

     

    The complete partner list is here:

     

    http://1.usa.gov/1av1Qxu
    12 Sep 2013, 08:30 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    Understood. I can only speak to the data that I have collected in a pretty diverse operation. I have run every major route in all conditions with every type of load (flatbed, step deck & box van). My data was the actual data gathered at the pump with an odometer reading. Fleets typically use IFTA data which is very fuzzy at best.

     

    I suppose both data sets have value if you understand how the data was gathered. I will stay with my original assessment...
    12 Sep 2013, 08:56 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    I'm certainly not going to argue with your experience, but the single biggest benefit of relying on the EPA's SmartWay data is that I won't have to argue with other readers (or securities regulators) about the credibility and reliability of my source materials.
    12 Sep 2013, 09:39 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2124) | Send Message
     
    Just spent several hours catching up on the concentrators. Actually refreshing to have been away. The daily grind of rehashing the same news becomes a little fatiguing after 4 years.
    However, now that I have completed our house move and settled in I hope to become a part of the conversation again.

     

    Good to have a glimmer of hope with NS-999.
    Good to have manufactured PBCs in an external plant.
    Good to be showing off the ePower Hybrid
    Good to be shouting for partners with the California PowerCube.
    Not so good that the share price is pathetic.

     

    Well that seems to cover it for the last two months. Good to be back.
    11 Sep 2013, 11:41 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29444) | Send Message
     
    We missed you. Welcome back Fut.
    11 Sep 2013, 11:46 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2124) | Send Message
     
    I did manage to read your latest articles. Nice work. I noticed your band of Musk oil believers didn't let you down in posting comments.
    11 Sep 2013, 11:57 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2124) | Send Message
     
    I actually walked around a model S a couple days ago. Talked with the owner. He loves the car. Drives it 36 miles a day. On the days he drives. $100,000 meant nothing to him. Saving 500 gallons of gas per year meant a lot. Beautiful car, I must say.
    11 Sep 2013, 12:00 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17253) | Send Message
     
    So moving in the hottest part of the summer and now you get the nice weather that is, mostly, upon us.

     

    Hope all went well and welcome back Futurist!

     

    HardToLove
    11 Sep 2013, 12:21 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2124) | Send Message
     
    Thanks HTL,
    But we in Florida are still 40 days from the weather breaking nice.
    However, Im taking a week long cruise to the western Mediterranean in October. That should be nicer.
    11 Sep 2013, 12:46 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4605) | Send Message
     
    Have fun on the cruise and welcome back.
    11 Sep 2013, 03:49 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    All,

     

    I was doing a little bit of reading on the Class 8 trucks in the US, and it seems that Honda Motor has already introduced an electric-hybrid (whether it's a series or parallel build) way back in 2009.

     

    My question is: What was the market reception for this product when they introduced it, and what was the feedback of customers 5 years after launch. More importantly, has the hybrid system proven a large reduction in fuel consumption? And how would ePower's truck compare to the Honda truck?

     

    Thanks for your answer(s)
    A
    11 Sep 2013, 01:00 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (731) | Send Message
     
    "a Class 8 hybrid diesel electric truck into its truck fleet at its parts center in Alpharetta, Ga. Built for Honda by Peterbilt Motors Company, the Smartway(SM)-certified* Model 386 hybrid truck"
    http://bit.ly/1aqOP7Y

     

    So, not a truck made by Honda. One used by Honda for testing.
    11 Sep 2013, 01:31 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Amouna, Just Honda looking at prospective markets and gathering data. Also get a little good publicity out of the deal. As John and Axion have pointed out, it's a huge market. Honda doesn't play in it significantly yet but given their experience in hybrid systems they might get excited about a JV.
    11 Sep 2013, 02:05 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    iindelco,

     

    I was wondering whether anyone on this board knows about this truck introduction to market from the standpoint of collection of performance data. It has been 5 years, and in my opinion it is more than enough for Honda to collect feedback and performance data to work on...

     

    On to a completely different matter now. I recently noticed in the streets of London where I live that many new buses have been deployed. These are new generation, hybrid electric buses with regenerative braking, and a hybrid drive train designed by BAE systems. The excess energy from braking is stored in Li-Ion battery packs. More details here:

     

    http://bit.ly/1eENGwh
    11 Sep 2013, 03:15 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8762) | Send Message
     
    Amouna, Understood. Since this is Honda research money I would expect them to share some data with the US regulators and keep the important detail to themselves.
    11 Sep 2013, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    I notice they don't mention what type of battery they are using for the hybrid system. My guess is that there are two possibilities. First, they used LA/AGM batteries like ePower tried and found out they couldn't handle the charge cycle and stay fully charged. Second they used Li-ion batteries and maybe they worked, but the system is still too expensive to use until the price of the batteries come down.
    Trucking companies aren't owned by state or federal governments that can use taxpayer's money to buy expensive solutions to the problem of smog or green house gases. Trucking companies have to worry about making money so they can't afford Li-ion batteries. Axion's PbC seems to be the only solution that fixes both problems. Hopefully, ePower is going to make a lot of money proving that to the trucking industry.
    11 Sep 2013, 04:04 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17253) | Send Message
     
    Late-day weakness started by BNCH as they enter a $0.1305x94K offer when $0.1309x5K was best. Then offer withdrawn.

     

    Maybe trying to scare up some cheap shares to buy up? BNCH has a $0.1255x40K bid in that's currently masked by better bids.

     

    HardToLove
    11 Sep 2013, 01:25 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13441) | Send Message
     
    $.128 is baaack... Volume is firming up...
    11 Sep 2013, 01:44 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13441) | Send Message
     
    Make that $.125...

     

    New lows in sight...
    11 Sep 2013, 01:57 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17253) | Send Message
     
    With recent 85% prices, my buy target is <$0.12.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    11 Sep 2013, 02:30 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1212) | Send Message
     
    HTL, how much less?
    11 Sep 2013, 02:34 PM Reply Like