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  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    Ditto......
    26 Sep 2013, 06:45 PM Reply Like
  • isthisonebetter
    , contributor
    Comments (230) | Send Message
     
    dos?

     

    Edit: Sorry, I feel like a troll since I'm not providing much in the way of content. But I am extremely grateful for the contributions of everyone here, I just have little experience to offer.
    26 Sep 2013, 06:57 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    OneBetter, Not a troll at all. We all contribute at different levels based on numerous factors. As a group we're all advantaged by it. A trolls interest is to disrupt what we share.
    26 Sep 2013, 07:50 PM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (783) | Send Message
     
    Tercero!!
    26 Sep 2013, 07:03 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (842) | Send Message
     
    When will this first thing on these APC's end? Please let it be soon.
    26 Sep 2013, 07:17 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    MrHolty: GRINCH! ;-))

     

    HardToLove
    26 Sep 2013, 07:30 PM Reply Like
  • jpau
    , contributor
    Comments (715) | Send Message
     
    And may I be the first to congratulate you for being first to call for that...

     

    Sorry, couldn't help myself
    26 Sep 2013, 11:42 PM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    Who has the the largest battery based energy storage plant in the U.S.? I see AES has a 32 MW plant using A123 batteries. I see mentions of a planned 40 MW plant in Texas, but the largest one I see using batteries in the U.S. is the 32 MW plant.
    26 Sep 2013, 08:23 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (842) | Send Message
     
    Just as an additional comment: I was interested for an update on the SEPTA (Philly Transit) program to put in SAFT Li-ion batteries for regen braking. I contacted a friend who used to work in the Philly mayor's office who got me in touch with someone at SEPTA who directed me to this article.

     

    http://bit.ly/14N84Yf

     

    Seems the test pilot went well with SAFT and they are going to do 1 more with supercaps but nothing with AXPW. ;( Personally, if I was TG I'd give the batteries to TG with the promise that an independent lab could compare the batteries periodically). It would be a great marketing tool.
    26 Sep 2013, 08:38 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (832) | Send Message
     
    Good idea; definitely time for some innovative marketing.
    26 Sep 2013, 09:06 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Mr. Holty, Well that blows a huge hole in TG's statement that they don't have room for PbC batteries since ultracaps take up more room per unit energy storage than PbC batteries.
    26 Sep 2013, 09:23 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    They're using Li Ion batteries and going to add super capacitors?
    That sounds like a might expensive battery set up.

     

    <With the success of the system, Gillespie said SEPTA wrote a competitive Transit Investment in Greenhouse Gas and Energy Reduction (TIGGER) grant to build a second unit at another substation, which will use super capacitors, which could double the life of the unit.

     

    “So with that investment of $2 million, it now has a 20-year life and I’m paying it back in five to seven years,” he said. “I just tripled my payback to SEPTA.”>

     

    This part I don't understand.

     

    <Jacques Poulin, product manager of energy storage in rail transportation for ABB, which was involved in creation of the unit, said although regenerative braking has been around for roughly 20 years, the concept of trying to capture wasted electricity has only been discussed for about the last seven years. By capturing the energy and reusing it for trains still wastes about half of the captured energy, so reselling it to electric companies reduces the waste and the business model with Veridity Energy benefitted both the system and electric company.>

     

    Why do they 'waste 50% of the energy', if they use it to power the train?

     

    Also this is a somewhat irregular power source. I'm not so sure this is a win for the grid.
    26 Sep 2013, 09:23 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3898) | Send Message
     
    fro ... Could be I'm mistaken here, but I believe the power generated in braking the SEPTA trains exceeds the DCA of the Li-ion batteries installed on the first system. Some of the braking energy is dissipated as heat.
    26 Sep 2013, 10:13 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    D-inv
    "By capturing the energy and reusing it for trains still wastes about half of the captured energy, so reselling it to electric companies reduces the waste and the business model with Veridity Energy benefitted both the system and electric company."

     

    The way I read it it is the reuse alone that causes the waste. Selling it to the power company doesn't have the waste problem.
    It could be discharging it so fast might be the problem.
    26 Sep 2013, 10:22 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    IIndelco
    "Mr. Holty, Well that blows a huge hole in TG's statement that they don't have room for PbC batteries since ultracaps take up more room per unit energy storage than PbC batteries. "
    That is for the next one, on a different site. Maybe larger.
    Also sometimes a customer will give a bit more when he/she sees it as a success.

     

    As in how much space am I willing to put forth into this hair braind scheme?
    Hay it works!
    Gee that's not so bad. The space isn't so bad either. You know they were telling me, i could make it a bit better, if I only.....

     

    Success changes requirement's.
    26 Sep 2013, 10:33 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Froggey, True.
    26 Sep 2013, 11:08 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3898) | Send Message
     
    "The way I read it it is the reuse alone that causes the waste."

     

    Earlier articles on SEPTA I noted that the rail line had realized revenues through sale of generated electricity to the electric company through Viridity Energy. That is, SEPTA's first li-ion storage system recovered enough energy to re-accelerate their trains, store a large amount in li-ion battery pack, and sell portions of that stored power to the grid.
    27 Sep 2013, 09:28 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    OT

     

    Memo to CEOs: Put shareholders second

     

    http://bit.ly/15z2f37
    26 Sep 2013, 11:47 PM Reply Like
  • nakedjaybird
    , contributor
    Comments (2658) | Send Message
     
    ii et.al. - yup, Jack Wealth (sic) had it right: "shareholder value is the dumbest thing in the world".

     

    And that's why TG "appears" to be doing all the wrong things.

     

    When corporations (those that did) got off the "Wall Street Standard", they were better off. Pleasing Wall Street is a mistake for real businesses.

     

    We must remember what the dependent and independent variables really are.

     

    Of course, that is only true if you also are not being dependent upon Wall Street, as is having to borrow money to survive - that's where folks get eaten alive, AND WE FEEL THE PAIN.
    27 Sep 2013, 03:31 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    NJB, I think the real meaning of the article, and I agree, is that setting goals to meet short term assessment periods like quarterly reports or some hedge funds personal portfolio metrics is not the way to run a company. But there does need to be a plan with measurable metrics for ALL employees IMO.

     

    Having to dig into the bowels of Wall Street to find a partner is not a good position to be in. We're living it.
    27 Sep 2013, 08:34 AM Reply Like
  • nakedjaybird
    , contributor
    Comments (2658) | Send Message
     
    That's right, short term goals to please the Street hinder real advances especially where capital must be spent - the Japanese never let this bother them and they took over American mfg in many areas leaving the US guys no choice but to close up shop and go elsewhere.

     

    As for the measurable goals for CEO (and many underlings), there are always the Financial goals, and many times the more important goals are the Non-Financials.

     

    And that is where AXPW should be.

     

    And we don't know necessarily what all those goals are nor how to measure them.
    27 Sep 2013, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    NJB: et al: The implications of all this "shareholder second" is that we shouldn't be buying stock in the secondary markets!

     

    Holding here doesn't benefit the company *except* when capital raise time comes. We depend on someone else to come "late to the party" to make gains for ourselves.

     

    Although I agree 100% that returning value to shareholders shouldn't be top priority, if the company is going to sell into the secondary market, the potential for return of value to shareholders is a needed component of *one* of the tools available to the company to assure better chance of capital raises on *reasonable* terms.

     

    The lack of that potential, whether near or long-term, can be seen in the onerous terms Axion had to accept on this latest capital raise.

     

    Moreover, if there should be the need to liquidate the company our status as "owners" of the company, and therefore due consideration as any owner would deserve, would be confirmed and there are even legal requirements that determine how we would "benefit" in such a process.

     

    So, should we be ignored in advance of such an unfavorable event?

     

    I think not. It is immoral, IMO. You (indirectly) take our money and then tell tough noogies? I don't want to be associated with such a company.

     

    OTOH, I have long disliked the increasing reliance on financially engineered scenarios by American business, the exorbitant explosive growth in CEO salaries, relative to the people that actually get their hands dirty, etc. I would *love* to see the "financial engineers" that "Occupy Wall St." forced to produce *product* that has inherent and long-lasting value (i.e. creates wealth rather than just transferring it) for our citizens.

     

    IMO, we'd be a lot better off. I'll forgo the screed about other segments of our society that seem to have deteriorated so much since I was young.

     

    Spoken in true ignorance,
    HardToLove
    27 Sep 2013, 01:02 PM Reply Like
  • nakedjaybird
    , contributor
    Comments (2658) | Send Message
     
    HTL -

     

    "So, should we be ignored in advance of such an unfavorable event?"

     

    It depends upon the muzzle accepted to further the entity one or more steps closer to it's goal(s); and sometimes this is uglier than one would prefer, but necessary since pulling off successful "bootstrap tricks" is indeed impossible, except where smoke and mirrors are used, such as in much of Wall Street.

     

    When's the last time you tried to raise $10 million bucks?
    27 Sep 2013, 01:45 PM Reply Like
  • danpm4life
    , contributor
    Comments (85) | Send Message
     
    iindelco, "But there does need to be a plan with measurable metrics for ALL employees IMO."

     

    Amen!!
    27 Sep 2013, 01:56 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    "When's the last time you tried to raise $10 million bucks?"

     

    Non sequitur

     

    HardToLove
    27 Sep 2013, 01:57 PM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (869) | Send Message
     
    HLT, every time you buy a lotto ticket.
    27 Sep 2013, 03:30 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    NGS: You know, I have never in my life bought one.

     

    HardToLove
    27 Sep 2013, 03:39 PM Reply Like
  • nakedjaybird
    , contributor
    Comments (2658) | Send Message
     
    I spose this comment does not qualify either:

     

    "Any job is easy for the guy that doesn't have to do it!"
    27 Sep 2013, 04:42 PM Reply Like
  • nakedjaybird
    , contributor
    Comments (2658) | Send Message
     
    dan - but that does not mean that have the right to know exactly what the non-financial goals of the plan are nor how they are being measured, as a stockholder. If you had access, so would the enemy (spelled: competition).
    27 Sep 2013, 04:44 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    Vestas, Duke Energy sign major wind turbine deal
    Danish wind-turbine maker Vestas Wind Systems' (VWDRY.PK) major supply deal with Duke Energy (DUK), announced earlier today, may be a sign the U.S. wind-power market may be gaining steam.Vestas will supply 400 MW of power-generating turbines for two wind farms DUK plans to build near Brownsville, Tex., and sell the electricity to municipal utility Austin Energy under two 25-year contracts.After a slow start this year, the U.S. wind power market has been picking up as utilities look to sign new contracts for renewable energy, says Chris Brown, president of Vestas' U.S. business.
    27 Sep 2013, 05:36 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    Vestas, Mitsubishi form offshore wind joint venture
    Vestas Wind Systems (VWDRY.PK) forms an offshore wind joint venture with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHVYF.PK), sealing a deal that has been in the making for more than a year.Mitsubishi is expected to provide the venture with an immediate €100M ($135M) cash injection, followed by another €200M if certain targets are met.Vestas will transfer the development of its V164-8.0 MW turbine, its V112 turbine offshore order book, existing offshore service contracts and ~300 employees to the venture.The deal should ease some of the fears about Vestas' financial health and ability to compete in the market for offshore wind turbines with competitors with deeper pockets such as Siemens (SI).
    27 Sep 2013, 08:46 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    Nissan to offer free charging to Leaf buyers in Texas pilot program
    Nissan (NSANY.OB) will offer free rapid charges for to buyers of its battery-powered Leaf model in Texas starting Oct. 1, Bloomberg reports. The move is a parrot of Tesla's strategy.Charging locations are operated by NRG Energy's eVgo unit.Company officials said Nissan may expand the program to other markets in the future
    27 Sep 2013, 05:40 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2095) | Send Message
     
    Hi LT,
    Looks like Nissan is marketing to drop a lot of Leafs (leaves?) in Texas. Maybe that explains the Texas sized Leaf blowers being put in around Brownsville? :-)
    27 Sep 2013, 12:11 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    GE invests half a billion in Turkey, more to come
    General Electric (GE) has already spent more than half of the nearly $900M the company committed to investments in Turkey, Jeff Immelt says.So far, $515M has been spent on turbines for a wind farm and power plant, facilities for blisk (that's a combination of a blade and a disk for those unaware) production, and the production of PowerHaul locomotives."The investments by GE ... should boost Turkish manufacturing and slash the country's import bill," Reuters notes. This would be a welcome development for Turkey, as its large current account deficit is a major economic weakness.
    27 Sep 2013, 05:40 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    Ballard Power +11.5% premarket on China fuel cell bus deal
    Ballard Power (BLDP) +11.5% premarket after announcing multi-year agreements to support Azure Hydrogen's partnerships with Chinese bus manufacturers in a phased development program for deployment of zero emission fuel cell buses in China utilizing BLDP's fuel cell technology.The expected value of the contract to BLDP over the initial 12 months of the first phase is ~$11M.
    27 Sep 2013, 05:45 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    More high mpg cars coming...nothing new but good read

     

    http://yhoo.it/1776e5p
    27 Sep 2013, 06:02 AM Reply Like
  • steeleydock
    , contributor
    Comments (30) | Send Message
     
    My take on the annual Axion meeting, a take riddled with bad science, financial bias and fatigue.

     

    The meeting seemed smaller than last year, less hands-on guys. Mr. Peterson was there and, true to his guru status, wore sandals.

     

    77% of shares voted on the motions.

     

    Mr. Granville, a man with a sleepy, Walter Matthau look, stuck to his guns and reiterated the company would have significant orders by the next earnings call. He said some of the urgency in signing the PIPE financing was anxiety of the financial condition of the company by some potential customers. The discussion with potential manufacturing partners (two) was clarified a bit--at least to me--when he said one manufacturer was itself interested in the technology, another manufacturer had a customer who was. The first patent to expire is in 2022; the plate patent expires in 2027. He feels the technology is difficult to reverse engineer. In Class 8 trucks, much of the advantage of battery replacement comes from allowing the downsizing of the engine (which Ecosystem does not allow.)

     

    Uniform string behavior where the PbC batteries self regulate in a series was a prominent, and to me new, theme.

     

    I'm sure there was a lot more but this group provides a lot of information so there were few surprises. One subjective note: I got the feeling that, despite the time and effort, there is still a lot to learn about this technology and that learning curve might make adopters hesitant.

     

    S
    27 Sep 2013, 07:45 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    "One subjective note: I got the feeling that, despite the time and effort, there is still a lot to learn about this technology and that learning curve might make adopters hesitant."

     

    This has been / is probably more true than you know.

     

    Just wondering IF he is setting the stage for a buy out or allowing someone to take a large stake in the company with his statement

     

    "when he said one manufacturer was itself interested in the technology, another manufacturer had a customer who was.
    27 Sep 2013, 07:57 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    "He said some of the urgency in signing the PIPE financing was anxiety of the financial condition of the company by some potential customers"

     

    there is 2 take aways with this statement:

     

    1. The unsaid one was the AXPW had to have money now or search for "other strategic options" which is the kiss of death statement

     

    2. If some of those customers are BMW & NSC, then it means they don't have to have the PbC to meet standards and we know JCI has the 2 battery system and NSC is testing a second tech in the lab now.

     

    indelco's statement that "they will require more than one source" comes into play and it could mean two different technology's.
    27 Sep 2013, 08:23 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    LT, They will want two different technologies, If possible which it is, for sure. This does not mean that one is not preferred over the other for some reason. It's just common sense when you need to keep muti-billion dollar plants running and you've also learned that having multiple suppliers to service functions keeps your systems costs down.
    27 Sep 2013, 08:47 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    The question was/is "Will AXPW be one of them"? or without the PIPE were they going to dump AXPW?

     

    and going with JCI in auto is like going with GE in electricity - so do they really need or have to have AXPW ?
    27 Sep 2013, 08:49 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Steeleydock, Thanks for the feedback from the annual meeting.

     

    "Mr. Granville, a man with a sleepy, Walter Matthau look,..."

     

    I think sir, you nailed it!

     

    IMO the company that is interested in building the PbC for its own needs is probably East Penn. I think they are sitting and biding their time. No evidence. Just makes sense.
    27 Sep 2013, 08:58 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    LT, The problem with JCI is exactly what you've eluded to. If you give one company too much market position they can dictate price for your needs. The autos don't want this. An example of them reacting to offset this. BMW nurturing First National Battery in South Africa, giving them a contract for their operations there and then seeing First National buy a partner in Romania to move into Europe. You don't think this all happened based only on First Nationals aspirations do you?

     

    The autos do not NEED Axion. The autos NEED many solutions with multiple alternatives relative to suppliers. They like to stay away from needing only one supplier for one technology. That's something healthy they learned from things like the UAW with their component groups and from events like the Japanese Tsunami. They want supplier, technical and geographic diversity. It's well known and it's not specific to Axion with its PbC.
    27 Sep 2013, 09:10 AM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    IIndelco
    "MO the company that is interested in building the PbC for its own needs is probably East Penn"

     

    East Penn is not an OEM supplier. After market in auto won't be necessary in any amounts for years.
    For some years I expect Axion to be able to handle ePower, NSC, and the PC.
    What do you think East Penn wants them for?
    I agree East Penn makes sense in a general interest way and nobody else trips my radar beyond the nebulous hope this means something ideas.
    (Such as Bosh in the SS arena.)
    Any specific thoughts on EP?
    27 Sep 2013, 11:33 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    East Penn is not a multi-national. One of the attendees basically said "We're assuming that you're dealing with at least one European manufacturer can you add any color on whether the other is on a different continent." The response was that both were multi-nationals. One was customer driven and the other was acting on its own initiative.
    27 Sep 2013, 12:16 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Froggey, East Penn is not currently an OEM supplier for Automotive. This is true. Yet read this old article. I believe the agreement with East Penn has subsequently been expanded further in both the apps it covers and geographic regions. Don't wish to look further for updates I have read to confirm.

     

    Furukawa Battery and East Penn Sign Sub-License Agreement for UltraBattery

     

    http://bit.ly/1dk34eh

     

    I think East Penn would love to have PbC for all the same reasons we like PbC. At the right price. And just because East Penn doesn't currently see an opening in commodity automotive OEM it does not mean they will not do it given the right technology and opportunities.

     

    Axion has spent almost a hundred million USD bringing the PbC battery to infant commercial production. And they have done much heavy lifting with potential customers. Their current market cap ins under twenty million USD. Is their anyone that knows Axion better than East Penn? They are just connecting the dots and waiting. The value proposition keeps going up for them and if someone else jumps in and they lose it in a bidding situation so what. If they understand what it's worth and they get it for a bargain that's good. They know what it's worth.
    27 Sep 2013, 12:18 PM Reply Like
  • nakedjaybird
    , contributor
    Comments (2658) | Send Message
     
    John et.al. - I thot this was a worthy quote from the head of SIRI re. the auto industry for those concerned with AXPW's "speed" and "announced forthrightness", etc.:

     

    "And number two, there is a lot written about how fast things are going to go in cars and how fast they are going to change, I can tell you, I came out of the consumer products business where things change very quickly, I worked there 30 years. I came here and the biggest thing I had to get use to in the nine years I have been here is, it doesn’t work that way in automotive. It is a lot more slow, a lot more deliberate, the lead times are a lot longer and because we are firmly entrenched today, I think that’s a real advantage for us going forward."
    27 Sep 2013, 12:30 PM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (869) | Send Message
     
    I assume for the "customer driven" manufacturer, that the customer is BMW. Based on that, does it narrow down who the manufacturer might be? Bosch perhaps?
    27 Sep 2013, 01:39 PM Reply Like
  • danpm4life
    , contributor
    Comments (85) | Send Message
     
    LT, you may be on to something. I also hold a position in JCI, where the needle is moving north.

     

    “On September 11, 2013, Johnson Controls, Inc. (Johnson Controls) announced the appointment of William C. Jackson to the position of Executive Vice President of the Company's newly created Corporate Development function.”

     

    "...The creation of the Corporate Development function reflects our expressed commitment to invest in platforms for future growth and increasingly diversify the company's portfolio," said Molinaroli. "Under Bill's leadership the team will lead strategy development and merger and acquisition activity,...”

     

    http://yhoo.it/15A0sLf
    27 Sep 2013, 02:29 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    John. Thanks. That's very good intelligence. Less about neighborly love going forward. Even though I suspect they are watching very closely. They'd be nuts not to.
    27 Sep 2013, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    East Penn has already earned their invitation to the party and they've been much closer to the PbC during the development process. When East Penn sees a profit opportunity for them, I'm confident they'll move with all due haste. Until then, they don't have anywhere near as much work to do as the newcomers
    27 Sep 2013, 03:34 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    John, I agree fully with your perspective.
    27 Sep 2013, 03:40 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3898) | Send Message
     
    JP ... If East Penn sells batteries in either or both Canada and Mexico in addition to the U.S., it is a multinational in one sense of the word at least.
    29 Sep 2013, 09:23 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    Anything is possible but I suspect your definition is hair splitting.
    29 Sep 2013, 10:02 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1459) | Send Message
     
    Steely,

     

    What do you mean by "meeting riddled with bad science" ? I thought these guys where scientifically on top of their game...

     

    Financial and investor fatigue is beginning to noticeably settle in, especially among us the legacy investors. Did they outline any clear coherent path to commercialisation, or is it just all tentative and highly dependent on already known potential customers ?

     

    Other feedbacks from the AGM are very welcome here!
    27 Sep 2013, 07:55 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    "Financial and investor fatigue is beginning to noticeably settle in, especially among us the legacy investors"

     

    I have been noticing this for quite some time, smaller shareholder meeting with nothing said ices the cake.
    The APC is slowing down for some time if you take out all the "first's second & thirds along with jokes and funny stuff. Just less interest overall.
    I would take a risk and say that investors are dwindling too. Slowly one at a time like the guy from Greece.

     

    Whatever the "significant sales by next cc" will probably determine the direction of the company for existing shareholders. IMO, if it's not recurring and really really good then things get really bad from here on & the next capital raise will be selling a big stake in the company to these OEM's who are interested
    (if they really are interested and this is questionable at what price & terms)
    27 Sep 2013, 08:12 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1459) | Send Message
     
    LT,

     

    If no change on the sales front I would say time for Granville to step down and let someone else do the job. Nothing wrong in recognising that times have changed and that we need fresh blood to capitalise on what has been done already and take it further. My suspicion though is that ego might get the better o him and he might want to stay on board until the bitter end...
    27 Sep 2013, 08:22 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    Amouna, you are right, TG is here to stay and will go down with the ship. Your last sentence "ego" says it.
    27 Sep 2013, 08:45 AM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (652) | Send Message
     
    LT,

     

    I believe your assumption that lack of postings means lack of interest is dead wrong. Most shareholders are holding on and buying more. New faces continue showing up on the APC. A few have sold out and gone away. A few have sold out and continue to follow. A few have sold out and continue to make negative prognostications on the APC.

     

    It is frustrating waiting with a limited amount of knowledge. But it is not productive to imagine and post all the doomsday scenarios that you continue to post.
    27 Sep 2013, 09:15 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    lol, tooo funny

     

    I guess you like the PIPE deal?

     

    I didn't set the price of late at .12 +/-

     

    I once fell for all the "inferring" of how big the mkt was for PbC and that AXPW pps would be $10 or a "10 bagger"....but sorry no more.

     

    Don't blame me for the disaster that you have endured. Every question I have posted is a legit question. Even tough ones nobody wants to hear.
    27 Sep 2013, 09:21 AM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (652) | Send Message
     
    LT,

     

    If you can only laugh at the people who continue to hold Axion as an investment why do you continue to post?

     

    Why not start your own concentrator with some of the other companies on which you have posted links to articles?
    27 Sep 2013, 09:31 AM Reply Like
  • pascquale
    , contributor
    Comments (97) | Send Message
     
    Oh my
    27 Sep 2013, 09:38 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    jveal, let me make one point perfectly clear, "I am NOT laughing at anyone holding AXPW shares. I too have felt the pain this company has caused."

     

    But your statement that asking questions from a different point of view is "not productive" made me laugh.

     

    I am not the only one who has noticed the "euphoria" of the past is no longer present here. Amouna just mentioned it above and many others. So why do you single me out ?
    27 Sep 2013, 09:42 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    LT, I think you should take a moment to reread your posts and think about the intent of this forum.
    27 Sep 2013, 09:44 AM Reply Like
  • steeleydock
    , contributor
    Comments (30) | Send Message
     
    I meant my appraisal was probably not up to the science of this board.
    S
    27 Sep 2013, 10:02 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    inde....I posted 6 posts including the ZBB post below that are directly related to energy.....each of them has the potential for battery storage attached.

     

    The intent is to show where real money is being spent and invested in energy production both in the USA and globally. Maybe AXPW has a shot at some with a PC like configuration?

     

    The other posts are follow ups to what was already posted....things that are my questions about what they seen at the meeting.

     

    FWIW....there are two other articles out today about Climate change and global warming .. One is the UN report that it is "most likely caused by man or man made crisis)

     

    IMO, the trend is already set and expanding for wind, solar & other forms of non-fossil fuel energy production. Which means energy storage systems or load leveling should be a big market.

     

    Tell me why this doesn't fit the intent of this APC ?
    27 Sep 2013, 10:38 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Tone LT.
    27 Sep 2013, 10:42 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    Good read on how ZBB solved it's capital problem, notice they can't sell like AXPW Pipe deal

     

    ZBB Energy Corporation Announces $3.0 Million Bridge Financing

     

    http://bit.ly/19LQ4vJ
    27 Sep 2013, 08:06 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    I keep thinking about TG's statement that 2 OEM's were interested in the technology.....it just won't go away.

     

    So wondering if the delay in announcing a manufacturing partner is that one or both of them says, why pay a royalty or buy electrodes from AXPW when the real negotiation is in how big a stake they can buy at what price?

     

    With the mkt. cap of AXPW at about $20 million +/- this deal could make sense to whoever the partner is. Probably cheaper to just buy the company if there is any demand for the PbC
    27 Sep 2013, 08:59 AM Reply Like
  • nummik
    , contributor
    Comments (68) | Send Message
     
    that is the most likely result if nothing sustainable turns up until Nov. Of course they would buy it for a premium to the then going pps.. but I very much doubt it would be close to my avg. of 0.27 and I won't average down to find it out how far below it is...
    27 Sep 2013, 09:07 AM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    LT
    Over a long term it is definitely cheaper to buy the company.
    Of course it would have been easy to buy a large portion of the company in the last two financing if that was the intent. We would only have had one or two investors.
    27 Sep 2013, 11:47 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    The quoted bid and ask price for a thousand share block of Axion's stock isn't even interesting in a discussion where somebody thinks they might want to buy the company. I can guarantee you that Management would be rolling on the floor laughing at anybody who thought they could buy Axion for anywhere near its current market cap.
    27 Sep 2013, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • Retired Aviator
    , contributor
    Comments (1469) | Send Message
     
    I agree with John. An industry player making a serious tender offer could easily be a 5 to 10 bagger from $.12. With some good news and a second player in a bidding war then higher yet.

     

    I am not 100% certain that Axion's PbC will fly commercially, though I think the odds are very high that at least _some_ applications will make sense. But I _am_ certain that it only has to fly not much better than a barnyard chicken to be worth 20M market cap.

     

    So I think the downside potential 50% to 100% loss is far less likely than the upside range, which could be 300% to 10,000%+. That's what I call a good gamble!
    27 Sep 2013, 12:49 PM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (501) | Send Message
     
    I'll write a quick comment before heading to the airport. I'll write up a much longer report over the coming days - expect it to be posted early next week.

     

    As posted earlier by one of the attendees, attendance was lower this year than last. The number of Axionistas was similar but my impression was that the number of institutional investors was much less (no questions from institutional investors if I properly recall).

     

    No news but a fair number of tidbits. ePower was the highlight as far as I was concerned with ePower CEO Jay (forgot his last name) proving to be a positive presence: extremely creative and capable but also quite outspoken. I think everyone thinks ePower is going to be a very important company and it is joined at the hip with Axion - it's just going to take quite awhile to impact Axion's stock price.

     

    Vani and TG both answered one of the Axionista question of what is your favorite opportunity with "grid". As JP posted, TG reaffirmed his statement about an order by the November call. I'm all but certain that will be a grid-related order to an island nation where they have $.50 KWH electricity prices.

     

    General agreement amongst the Axionistas I talked to a lot was to hold shares and wait for the news, which likely isn't going to drive up the stock price much or for long. We've got a long slog ahead of us and the PIPE crushed some of the upside, but eventually Axion will make it. Frustrated but resolved.
    27 Sep 2013, 09:47 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Thanks APM, Have a nice flight.

     

    Look forward to your write up next week. Just like your past efforts they are very much appreciated.
    27 Sep 2013, 09:52 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1500) | Send Message
     
    Thanks APM for taking the time to go to the meeting and post your report.
    27 Sep 2013, 10:18 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    APM: Thanks for both attending and your generosity with your time to share. Have a safe and uneventful trip home.

     

    HardToLove
    27 Sep 2013, 10:34 AM Reply Like
  • growsmart
    , contributor
    Comments (158) | Send Message
     
    This is the kind of post that is helpful. Will read with interest your expanded report next week.
    Some suggestions for certain posters:
    1) If you haven't already, sell all your shares in AXPW.
    2) Start your own company and hire the management you want and appoint the BOD of your choosing.
    3) Start your own board for this new company.
    4) Stop bloviating on this board. It's a waste of your time and ours.
    27 Sep 2013, 10:45 AM Reply Like
  • nummik
    , contributor
    Comments (68) | Send Message
     
    "Bloviating" funny word, looked it up and will keep it, thank you ;)
    27 Sep 2013, 10:57 AM Reply Like
  • alsobirdman
    , contributor
    Comments (362) | Send Message
     
    HAHA. Very nice post GS, and I could not agree more. Don't get a chance to post much due to work taking priority, but do like to check in and see the news. Without the posts you describe, wouldn't take me long at all to catch up.
    27 Sep 2013, 02:17 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3898) | Send Message
     
    grow ... Consider taking your own advice re - 4)
    29 Sep 2013, 09:47 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (967) | Send Message
     
    growsmart

     

    Good post!
    30 Sep 2013, 08:07 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    While I think AGM opinions from the other attendees will be more valuable than mine, I did notice several things that caught my eye and might have been missed by others.

     

    First, when we were leaving the building at the end of the electrode plant tour I saw a couple of shipping pallets stacked three feet high with carbon electrode sheets that were ready to go as feedstock for the electrode assembly fabrication line. Since the sheets are probably 4x5x1/16, it was an impressive sight.

     

    Second, at the end of the battery plant tour there were several hundred Group 30HT Pbc's on pallets and ready for shipment along with another 100 Group 30 PbC's like the ones ePower uses.

     

    Third, I learned that the flooded batteries Axion has been making for East Penn are heavy equipment batteries rather than the smaller automotive or UPS sized batteries I expected.

     

    Fourth, I noted that Axion was using all three lines. One of the flooded lines was doing nothing but making the East Penn Batteries. The AGM line was dedicated solely to the PbC. The most fascinating part was that they were using the second "flooded" line to make specialty AGM batteries for racing and car collectors. I had always assumed that it would take a huge equipment upgrade to make AGM batteries on a flooded line. The fact that they were doing so suggests that switching capacity from flooded to AGM may be less complex than I thought it would be.
    27 Sep 2013, 10:48 AM Reply Like
  • nummik
    , contributor
    Comments (68) | Send Message
     
    Good observations, thank you.
    27 Sep 2013, 10:55 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... Item #4 is very interesting indeed.
    27 Sep 2013, 10:55 AM Reply Like
  • growsmart
    , contributor
    Comments (158) | Send Message
     
    Very helpful. Thanks John.
    27 Sep 2013, 10:56 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1500) | Send Message
     
    John, thanks for posting your observations.
    27 Sep 2013, 11:11 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    John, Thanks for sharing your observations.

     

    I'm assuming your comments concerning the sheeting on a pallet is because of your history having viewed the prior manual operation. None the less it's a good "Trust but Verify" observation.

     

    The observation of the additional AGM capacity is nice as it gives more efficient access for PbC supply and development. Nothing but more deep dive questions after that. Too deep.
    27 Sep 2013, 11:19 AM Reply Like
  • Retired Aviator
    , contributor
    Comments (1469) | Send Message
     
    I'd hesitate to assume that palletized batteries are soon shipping out. Couldn't it just be inventory? How else would you store inventory but on pallets?

     

    Not sure how meaningful several hundred PbCs of inventory is. Let's say 700 batteries selling at $350 apiece, that represents just a quarter million in revenue and it's not even certain they have been sold.

     

    I think we are a bit too on the edge of our seats for the eagerly awaited "news of significant sales".
    27 Sep 2013, 12:07 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    Finished batteries don't like sitting on a shelf in inventory. Between a modest rate of self discharge and the high cost of carrying inventory, it looks like Axion is pretty much working as a job shop and building batteries as the orders arrive.

     

    Knowing the way Axion's management throws nickels around like manhole covers I don't see any reasonable possibility that they spent a quarter million dollars building an inventory just in case somebody wants a few batteries.
    27 Sep 2013, 12:23 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    John,
    "Fourth, I noted that Axion was using all three lines. One of the flooded lines was doing nothing but making the East Penn Batteries. The AGM line was dedicated solely to the PbC. The most fascinating part was that they were using the second "flooded" line to make specialty AGM batteries for racing and car collectors. I had always assumed that it would take a huge equipment upgrade to make AGM batteries on a flooded line. The fact that they were doing so suggests that switching capacity from flooded to AGM may be less complex than I thought it would be."

     

    Thanks for the observations. Considering your observation above, it would have been interesting to ask whether a PbC could be made on a flooded line or needs to be made on a dedicated AGM line.
    27 Sep 2013, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    The plant manager Joe Cole wasn't willing to do much talking when it came to making AGM batteries on a flooded line. I do think he was pleased, however, that I noticed.
    27 Sep 2013, 12:36 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2118) | Send Message
     
    John,

     

    As ever, your eye for detail is invaluable to us all.

     

    Were the carbon electrode pallets packaged for shipping, wrapped up for trucking and weather protection, etc., or packaged for local use on Axion's line?

     

    Could somebody already be working on a new PbC line elsewhere using electrodes made in New Castle? Maybe near Spartanburg? ;-)
    27 Sep 2013, 01:47 PM Reply Like
  • Retired Aviator
    , contributor
    Comments (1469) | Send Message
     
    <<there were several hundred Group 30HT Pbc's on pallets and ready for shipment along with another 100 Group 30 PbC's like the ones ePower uses.>>

     

    Hmm, connecting the dots, if 30HT are for stationary and locomotive while Group 30 are most likely for trucks, then 100 Group 30 could be for two Class 8 trucks @56 batteries each. Had ePower already received the batteries for the 10 trucks for testing purposes? If so, then sales of batteries for 2 more trucks already would be good news indeed, suggesting orders not from ePower but from early adopter truckers. That kind of $ investment from a trucker at this early stage of trials is a vote of confidence and corroborates what JP has said about the OTR performance being outstanding so far. Perhaps word is getting around in the truck world. I hope it spreads like wildfire.
    27 Sep 2013, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    The carbon sheets I was referring to are the outside layers of 5-layer laminated PbC electrode. They were stacked for use by Axion on the line that makes finished electrode assemblies from the basic components.

     

    ePower is still working on its two prototypes and that work will take most of the fall to complete. Work on the ten truck demonstration fleet won't start until fuel economy testing on the third-generation prototypes is complete.
    27 Sep 2013, 03:36 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    " I saw a couple of shipping pallets stacked three feet high with carbon electrode sheets that were ready to go as feedstock for the electrode assembly fabrication line. Since the sheets are probably 4x5x1/16, it was an impressive sight."

     

    That (4x5) seems awfully small. The group 31 standard is 6.75x9.27 and the 30HT standard is 6.75x11.95 ( (length doesn't matter as electrodes are stacked). Could these be for another countries standard? I don't see any group these would fit in our standards. What group or form factor would a 4x5 sheet fit?
    27 Sep 2013, 05:32 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    My size estimate was a spit ball number from a few feet away. Don't read anything into it.
    27 Sep 2013, 05:44 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    But I want to! I want that pallet to be on its way to a partner to be used in their AGM plant for the SS PbC for BMW. Next time would you read the shipping label? <smile>
    27 Sep 2013, 05:51 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    Remember that the PbC electrode assembly is a five layer lamination with a metal current collector core, two corrosion barrier sheets and two carbon sheets. The pallets of carbon sheets need to be laminated together with current collectors and corrosion barriers before they can be used by anyone, including Axion. The important part of the observation was pallets of critical components awaiting assembly into even more pallets of PbC electrodes.
    27 Sep 2013, 05:54 PM Reply Like
  • Fritz1969
    , contributor
    Comments (37) | Send Message
     
    John, did ePower already received all 560 batteries from Jul 8, 2013 order? Maybe some of batteries in production are for ePower.
    29 Sep 2013, 05:44 AM Reply Like
  • timzinski
    , contributor
    Comments (81) | Send Message
     
    Good morning all!

     

    I've been too busy with other business to post much on the APC's, but I read every post to stay in touch.

     

    I have been accumulating shares regularly in tax lots of 5,000.
    I have never sold a share and am holding long term.
    I started with 400 shares and now control over 121,000 (OMG!) in less than 1.5 years.
    I don't know why some posters grumble and whine so much.

     

    I bought FB the day of the IPO in May, 2012. It crashed, out of favor, but I held. 1.5 years later FB is now popular, as they increase revenues. The share price bottomed at 17.55 in 2012 but today FB was over 51.00/share. I sold all my FB at a nice profit last week and started re-investing it in more AXPW under .13.

     

    I bought Kandi Technologies (KNDI) and then the pps crashed to 1.88. I held on. Things change, markets improve, sales increase. A short 1 year later and KNDI goes over 9.50/share this week and is holding today around 8.50. I'm holding for the long term, hoping KNDI hits 100.00 in a few years.

     

    AXPW pps has declined but will recover, just like FB and KNDI. Announcement of significant sales soon, the 999 will be working soon, the pps will rise. I am hoping for 1.00/share by the end of 2013 and I agree with JP that 10.00 is in Axion's future.

     

    Yesterday and today I have not been able to fill 5,000 shares at .12. That must be a floor. Where are the Piper's? I want my shares. Earlier in the week I was able to fill at .1255 and .125, but not immediately. Folks are holding on pretty tight to their shares.

     

    Thanks again to all for sharing their DD and for making the effort to go to the Annual Meeting and post their information!

     

    My advice? Stop whining, keep accumulating...
    Tim

     

    27 Sep 2013, 10:55 AM Reply Like
  • growsmart
    , contributor
    Comments (158) | Send Message
     
    Agree!
    27 Sep 2013, 10:59 AM Reply Like
  • Masi
    , contributor
    Comments (422) | Send Message
     
    Tim, I feel the same as you. I also feel that if the PIPErs wanted to drive the price down, days like today would be a good day to try. ie, two hours in and less than 20,000 shares traded. One large market sell order could take the pps to below .115. But, then most of us who are just waiting on the sidelines would swoop in and buy a ship-load of shares. I have been long on AXPW for 5 years now and have introduced the stock to many of my family and friends. They understand that this is a long time hold and also understand the risk as I think all who post here do.

     

    I also check in here every day and have never seen such a great amount of info/research for a stock in my 14 years of managing my own portfolio. The Dot.com crash did it for me. Just keep thinking like Warren Buffet, buy when nobody wants it and then patience.
    27 Sep 2013, 11:35 AM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (869) | Send Message
     
    My rule: Never ever ever never ever recommend stocks to family and friends. Especially one as risky as AXPW. Nothing good can come of it.
    27 Sep 2013, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • Retired Aviator
    , contributor
    Comments (1469) | Send Message
     
    nogood,

     

    So if you a few decades ago had figured out that Buffett was a genius and would kill the market it still would have been bad to recommend Berkshire Hathaway? IIRC he turned a $1000 investment in the 1960's to well over $5,000,000 today.
    27 Sep 2013, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • nummik
    , contributor
    Comments (68) | Send Message
     
    A reasonable rule as undoubtedly my foresight capabilities are limited... my hindsight isn't that bad though ;)
    27 Sep 2013, 12:30 PM Reply Like
  • Masi
    , contributor
    Comments (422) | Send Message
     
    It is a good rule I usually follow but when they were seeing the gains I was enjoying on some other stocks they were insisting. I explained to them repeatedly of the risk involved with this company and the possible length of time before things could come to fruition. None of them has more than a couple of grand in the stock so I am willing to take the grief. Heck, that's our tab at the local sports bar for a couple of months.
    27 Sep 2013, 12:56 PM Reply Like
  • Masi
    , contributor
    Comments (422) | Send Message
     
    Imagine what he could of done if he understood computer/internet technology. His company would probably be worth in the Trillions. His main rule of investing is to only invest in things he understands. Seems to have worked out amazingly well for him and many thousands of others who believed in him.
    27 Sep 2013, 01:02 PM Reply Like
  • Retired Aviator
    , contributor
    Comments (1469) | Send Message
     
    Masi,

     

    I agree that currently the PIPErs do not wish to manipulate the price down. They've either exhausted their supply of shares earmarked for selling or simply don't want to break the pps right now. It's clear that it would be easy to do given the miniscule volume today. The bid side has exhausted, apparently having loaded the truck up already in the recent weeks' buying opportunity.
    27 Sep 2013, 01:02 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    Fridays are usually a low volume slow day.
    27 Sep 2013, 01:17 PM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (252) | Send Message
     
    Thanks to all for 'reports' from the meeting (steeley, LT, apm, JP). Helpful and encouraging and thanks in advance for more.

     

    Also, thanks timzinski for your comments. I too am still accumulating, just not sure yet at what price though .12 is plenty attractive to me.

     

    geopark
    27 Sep 2013, 01:21 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    R.A: In 44 trades only one "buy" today. B:S is ATM 1:17.02.

     

    From *my* POV, I've seen nothing yet indicating they don't want lower price. ARCA habitually takes Friday off, and they have again today.

     

    Regardless of that, 170K+ were "sells" with 10K "buy".

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    27 Sep 2013, 01:44 PM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (869) | Send Message
     
    RA, If asked, I might admit to owning it. But I would never recommend it because you just never know. Lehman Brothers was a great stock--until it wasn't.
    27 Sep 2013, 01:46 PM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (869) | Send Message
     
    Masi, that is different than recommending. But mostly, I just don't bring up the subject of investing with family (aside from my wife) and friends.
    27 Sep 2013, 01:48 PM Reply Like
  • Masi
    , contributor
    Comments (422) | Send Message
     
    nogo, I totally understand. I have family members that would rather keep their money under the mattress. If they lost $10.00 in an investment it would mean not being talked to for years. Others just don't think any risk is worth it no matter how much I try to explain that the markets always go back up eventually. If they can't handle it emotionally I would never push them. Just as the people that do invest have as many levels of risk they can handle as there are people.

     

    I do tell them one thing though, don't come begging to me for cash when I'm taking all the risk and doing all the research. Even that alone will upset them.
    27 Sep 2013, 03:08 PM Reply Like
  • Retired Aviator
    , contributor
    Comments (1469) | Send Message
     
    HTL,

     

    Thank you. Not sure what is meant by "only one buy". Every trade has a buyer, no? You mean a bid was raised to hit the ask only once?

     

    Isn't the lack of flooding the market with shares on an anemic bid day evidence of "not wanting a lower price". They could dump a million shares on a 'market' sell order and probably knock it down a couple cents in 2 minutes that way if they wanted to. That would be one strategy if they wanted to "scare" a lower price that just might hold for a while.
    27 Sep 2013, 03:24 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    R.A: "meant by "only one buy"".

     

    As part of my experimental stuff, we arbitrarily classify a trade that hits the ask as a "buy" and one that hits the bid as a "sell". This is an attempt to more finely gauge sentiment and likely short-term price behavior.

     

    One resounding success of it was the call of the "grind up" in early November. Other times it's been spotty as we've not had another major turning point except that I also suggested we'd topped in January, IIRC. Unfortunately, I thought a typical retrace was beginning, not what we've seen since.

     

    Anyway, I would say yes, the bid was raised to hit the ask only once. Although I don't think of it as a "bid", per se, but rather a decision to trade at the ask - splitting hairs I guess.

     

    "Isn't the lack of flooding the market with shares on an anemic bid day evidence of "not wanting a lower price".

     

    Ignoring the word "flooding" .... I consider a very high ratio of sells to buys to be demonstration of lack of price support. Further, I consider it "bearish" in nature. With the "financiers" having very large resources, with the "full-ratchet" anti-dilution provisions of the financing deal, the fact that they do *not* (apparently) deploy their resources to support price (e.g. accumulating stock at *current* prices), seems to me to be a solid demonstration of "lack of support" and that John's write-up on the mechanics and rational behind the PIPEer participation seems to be in play.

     

    So far, it appears he was spot-on *except*, AFAICT with my meager resources, for the time-frame he thought they might come in and support price.

     

    That's not too surprising if they are also "crunching the numbers" and have no better knowledge than we about *when* substantive news might appear. Or if they do have some idea in mind and are determined to be as long as possible at as low a pps as possible when the news comes.

     

    You may have noticed my posting of the 85% prices prior to the computer breakage (thankfully fixed now). Factoring those in with the several horrid metrics (including the *very* low daily short sales) tells me there is not support from that quarter.

     

    All very subjective in regards to conclusions drawn from the hard data because of the assumptions and guesses that need to be made to get any sort of intelligence out of it all.

     

    Sorry this was so long - normal "brain dump" mode here.

     

    HardToLove
    27 Sep 2013, 03:57 PM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (652) | Send Message
     
    RA,

     

    The PIPE'ers are only allowed to individually sell 15% of what has already been sold on that day. So they would be in hot water if they dumped a million shares on an anemic trading day.
    27 Sep 2013, 04:09 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    JVeal: Yes, but don't forget than in aggregate they can account for 60% of a day's volume (IIRC JP said their were four distinct entities?).

     

    HardToLove
    27 Sep 2013, 04:13 PM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (652) | Send Message
     
    Yes, I understand HT. If 100,000 shares have been sold by non PIPE'ers, if they were all selling at full speed they could sell 60,000, then 36,000 to match their sales, then .6 x 36000, and so on until they sold a total of 150,000. That would be a total of 250,000 shares for the day. 100,000 for non PIPE'ers and 150,000 for PIPE'ers.

     

    The point I was making is that other shareholders must sell for the PIPE'rs to be able to flood the market with a million shares.
    27 Sep 2013, 04:34 PM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1138) | Send Message
     
    HTL, et al: One thing that is abundantly clear is that the stock *wants* to be at .12 (give or take .002)!
    27 Sep 2013, 04:51 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    John: pleasant to hear about the batteries on pallets. The 30HT is (NSC) size isn't it?

     

    HardToLove
    27 Sep 2013, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    The 30HT is the preferred size for NS and stationary applications.
    27 Sep 2013, 11:08 AM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (781) | Send Message
     
    Thank you for the info.

     

    Would anyone at the meeting be able to suggest that they felt that TG and staff truly felt "confident" in their current position and opportunities to make Axion a success story?

     

    Did you leave the meeting with confidence or feeling "in doubt"?
    27 Sep 2013, 11:01 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I had dinner with a few Axionistas on Wednesday night and there was a clear air of hostility and doubt. By the time we left on Thursday evening everybody seemed a good deal more comfortable. Since I really don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, I'd rather have them share their thoughts than have me telling you what I think they thought.
    27 Sep 2013, 11:11 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... Was there any new information of the CFO search? Among the things I'm hoping for is that he/she will be much younger than the rest of the management and is an energy sector devotee.
    27 Sep 2013, 11:34 AM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (501) | Send Message
     
    The leading CANDIDATE for the CFO job was at the meeting and was introduced by TG which seemed surprising to me. He seemed to be a guy in his 40s.
    27 Sep 2013, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (781) | Send Message
     
    John,

     

    Thanks for the response, can you answer the question for yourself?

     

    Thanks
    27 Sep 2013, 11:17 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    Stockholders fret and worry about where management is going and whether the potential customers really like the PbC. I know where management is going and so do they. When you talk to any of the Axion staff from the plant manager on down they are incredibly proud of what they're doing, and a bit frustrated because the customers are taking so long to act. Because of my association with ePower I also know what at least one customer thinks.

     

    I read tons of fear based comments on these concentrators and know that there's little I can do to assuage those fears. I don't share any of them, although I do think the PIPErs are vultures.
    27 Sep 2013, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (781) | Send Message
     
    Thanks JP,
    27 Sep 2013, 12:32 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1428) | Send Message
     
    IMHO, Axion has a branding problem.

     

    They do not say what they are in a sound bite, or even an elevator speech.

     

    I doubt that many of us could say what Axion does in less than 5 seconds. Try to do it.
    27 Sep 2013, 11:39 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1428) | Send Message
     
    I'll try here: The company must recognize that it is, and brand itself as, 'a leading electricity storage and regulation manufacturing and service organization...with product today, that solves today's and tomorrows' storage and regulation needs'.

     

    OK, it can be said shorter and better.

     

    But Axion PR needs to brand the company and get the brand out. Thus stated, every person and organization that has a storage and regulation problem is a potential customer. This is a huge market.

     

    Projects like ePower, the government's mini grid projects, JPM/Viridity and the 'island project'...finished and working projects prove that today's product works and is in use solving storage and regulation needs.

     

    BMW and NS are potentially fabulous, but they are not working projects solving a need today and tomorrow using today's product.

     

    I do not believe the current share price is an important issue; the important issue is survival as the market comes to us.
    27 Sep 2013, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • danpm4life
    , contributor
    Comments (85) | Send Message
     
    Thotdoc re. “The company must recognize that it is, and brand itself as, 'a leading electricity storage and regulation manufacturing and service organization...with product today, that solves today's and tomorrows' storage and regulation needs'.

     

    You are spot on. One of the questions I wanted asked at the Shareholder’s meeting was; What strategic changes has Axion made to support growth since its transition from a development stage company and the availability PIPE financing funds? I assumed/hoped that Vani Dantam had at least put together a business plan with some strategic direction on sales, w/o violating any nda's, that in part could be quoted. Since Mr. Dantam has been with Axion for 1yr 8mo., I assumed he also had to be part of the 2013 budget planning & projection process.

     

    I don’t know if the question was asked, but your branding comment really could cover everything from sales force orientation, to promotion of the Axion logo & how Axion describes itself in Press Releases (PR). Focused branding & describing how the Axion PbC energy technology product can solve known battery management, durability, high costs etc. problems that exist with competing battery technologies. As an example, the current “About Axion Power International, Inc.” in PR’s spends too much print on ‘look at we’ve done’ vs. ‘look at what we can do for you.” Your suggestion is exactly the kind of directional change that is needed.
    27 Sep 2013, 05:43 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    ZBB earnings and year end results...it's worth reading, impressive customer and product list:

     

    http://bit.ly/1eMPULS
    27 Sep 2013, 12:41 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (832) | Send Message
     
    JP> — “I read tons of fear based comments on these concentrators and know that there's little I can do to assuage those fears. I don't share any of them, although I do think the PIPErs are vultures.”
    .........................

     

    I also don’t share many of the (fearful) concerns that are expressed here, believing most of them will be resolved in due course. Because of the PIPE deal however, financing is the exception, and is the area I have much less confidence in. Far and away my biggest concern is not whether Axion will need another capital raise at some point, but whether they will EVER again feel compelled to do another PIPE deal.

     

    I just don’t know whether Axion could survive such a development. I would have to think even the most diehard Axionistas would wonder whether it makes sense to ride through another round of PIPE dilution, which could possibly be far worse than the first round. — If I had had an opportunity to ask TG anything, it would have been something like, “Can you offer some kind of assurance that you will NEVER again do another PIPE transaction?” I would also have been tempted to ask him if he and/or “anxious” potential customers fully understood the ramifications of taking the PIPE course.
    27 Sep 2013, 01:21 PM Reply Like
  • nummik
    , contributor
    Comments (68) | Send Message
     
    I doubt that they would do another PIPE, because as it appears now this deal was a last ditch effort to keep the lights on, if the PIPERs are the last option in spring someone (or they) will take the company over.
    Yes, I don't hope it ....
    27 Sep 2013, 01:32 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I did a variable conversion rate offering in the late 80s and learned my lesson. Since then I've been adamantly opposed to variable deals. Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks in the financial community hawking PIPE transactions as a great way to raise money and the promise of a quick close and certain funding can be very alluring if you've been beating your head against a wall. Mercifully, it's not a mistake that most people make more than once. Oddly enough that was one of the things that gave me a modicum of hope that this time would be different. Maxim's recent deals page shows several repeat customers and that's rare as hen's teeth for most PIPE brokers. I think the odds that TG will ever jump into that arena again are as close to zero as one can imagine.
    27 Sep 2013, 03:45 PM Reply Like
  • RuggedDC
    , contributor
    Comments (182) | Send Message
     
    I talked several times during the day with TG regarding the PIPE financing.

     

    It is abundantly clear to me that he understands how devastating the PIPE financing has become.

     

    I also believe that he feels deceived by the PIPE investors' intentions. I got the impression that one of the PIPE investors is behaving "honorably" with perhaps a longer term interest in Axion but that the others are 'the leeches'.

     

    I think he understands now, if he didn't quite before, how dire such financings are and, based on my discussions with him, can't imagine that he'd ever do another.

     

    TG's explanation for why this PIPE financing happened when it did was that some number of Axion's big potential customers were expressing nervousness about Axion's financial condition. TG seemed to say that his original intention would have been to delay until this summer doing a financing, but that the customers' nervousness was VERY worrisome and needed pronto resolution. At THAT moment, pickings were slim for better financings...
    27 Sep 2013, 04:09 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    RuggedDC: Thanks for that! I'm encouraged that he seems aware of the nastiness of it. From what you posted it seems he may also be in that "learning curve" I've suggested in the past.

     

    IMO, that is a "good thing". I've never been a harsh judge of mistakes of ignorance unless they are repeated (too often? :-).

     

    I've always believed that "on the job training" has it's place and the fact that my money is out there and he's a CEO doesn't change that.

     

    I sure appreciate you took the time and what you posted!

     

    HardToLove
    27 Sep 2013, 04:18 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >RuggedDC ... "some number of Axion's big potential customers were expressing nervousness about Axion's financial condition." is rather perplexing to me. Did it not occur to them or TG that they could go a long way toward solving this worry. They could become actual customers or at least make solid declaration of intent (timeline & quantity). Without a solid (at least handshake) agreements why would Axion care because "potential" doesn't get them anything. I mean, I'm a "potential" Tesla purchaser but I wouldn't think expressing such would get them to pay any attention to my worries. Getting Axion to panic into a financing round without solid knowledge of when "potential" becomes "actual" is a big mistake made by Axion.
    27 Sep 2013, 04:40 PM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (252) | Send Message
     
    Rugged . . I second HT's comment. Many thanks for the thoughtful effort and posting.

     

    geopark
    27 Sep 2013, 06:10 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2333) | Send Message
     
    JP,

     

    Does this suggest that TG was naive or desperate? It's hard to fathom how he could have concluded the PIPE wouldn't dilute the heck out of the common.

     

    If this was a desperate act - in light of no other financing options - how do we know we wont have to swallow another one of these market driven events down the road. Can Axion really produce 8M+ in extra cash flow without having to increase expenditures a ton?

     

    Growing operations need cash flow and 2014 storage and Epower sales don't seem like they will move the needle enough to avoid more financing.
    27 Sep 2013, 08:11 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2333) | Send Message
     
    I'm not sure it makes sense that TG could have been deceived when there is abundant data on PIPEs that suggest PPS will suffer almost in all cases. That to me would suggest a certain type of naivete on the part of TG. I do hope Axion "lives and learns" from this lesson.
    27 Sep 2013, 08:15 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    Tom was getting pressure from a several quarters including stockholders who were worried the company would run out of money and customers who were spending boatloads on validation and testing but worried about Axions stability. While the Axionista base was willing to bottom feed at whatever prices it thought it could get away with, this crowd views bottom feeding as blood sport, and that's a bitch when an executive has to explain his poor stock price performance.

     

    In the final analysis Tom had to act whether he wanted to or not. Unfortunately the investment banking game is rigged from GS on down. These guys sign contracts to represent a company like Axion but their only real loyalties are to their book of investors and their desire to make a buck. The only thing you can do is sign up the best banker you can corral and hope that they're lying too much when they describe their investors. It's a really crappy system, but it's a darned sight better than the alternatives.

     

    The bottom line is managers know they're going to get screwed by their bankers and their new investors, but they have to choose the least unpleasant form of screwing. Sometimes the choices prove to be suboptimal and all you can do is lick you wounds and add more to your experience base.
    27 Sep 2013, 08:30 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1410) | Send Message
     
    Nobody here knew the extent of price damage the PIPE would leave either. If I knew of big partnerships around the corner, I'd probably have done the PIPE too to secure them.
    27 Sep 2013, 08:31 PM Reply Like
  • obieephyhm
    , contributor
    Comments (1562) | Send Message
     
    I may be wrong and my own experience largely invalid . . . but there is often a war of conflicts between what is best long-term and what serves the short-term. Those on the inside have to weigh the alternatives and, obviously, if one fails to survive the short-term, the long-term becomes irrelevant.

     

    Again, it may be my own warped perspective, but survival with the chance to come out best in the long-run beats short-term but dead dreams. I take it as relevant and positive that TG (and the others inside) seem to know this and are working toward the long-term as best as can be managed given the (oft-conflicting) demands of financiers and stakeholders.
    27 Sep 2013, 08:57 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    I'm sure there is a small mountain of information I'll never (don't want to) know as to why it made sense for Axion to do. Well, no matter why Mr. Granville took the PIPE I do hope that Axion has determined that cash flow is an important item on the list of things to do that needs attention. Maybe it took the concern of a "potential" customer to make the point.
    28 Sep 2013, 11:12 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Well, Even if you throw nickles around like man hole covers you still need more nickles at some point. And when gathering them becomes as painful as gathering manhole covers you know it's time to buckle down and gather some seeds and berries along with targeting the big game.

     

    "You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes well you might find, You get what you need."

     

    Maybe TG listened to an old Stones song recently?
    28 Sep 2013, 11:41 AM Reply Like
  • ARGE
    , contributor
    Comments (717) | Send Message
     
    Tom should have at least gone on Shark Tank before doing the PIPE deal, and got national exposure if not a pile of cash.
    http://abc.tv/1bgPARx

     

    Would have been nice if he could have offered current long term share holders an opportunity to buy some more at a discount instead of pied pipers.
    28 Sep 2013, 02:05 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I don't think Shark Tank accepts public companies.

     

    Rights offerings are great in theory but very difficult and dangerous in practice because you can never predict how the stockholder base will react unless the base is small and tightly controlled. While some Axionistas would have jumped at an offer that said "we're giving you the right to buy 1 share for every three shares you presently own," a large percentage would have found themselves in a position where they couldn't come up with the cash in 30 to 45 days and more would have been reluctant to dive deeper on an investment that was already under water.

     

    Companies that conduct rights offerings and succeed are loved by their stockholders. Companies that conduct rights offerings and fail are despised by everybody. You don't do one unless you're willing to bet the company.

     

    I've practiced securities law for three decades and have considered rights offerings for several clients. By the time they worked through the risk and complexity they invariably decided that going directly to new investors was the only sensible approach.
    28 Sep 2013, 02:32 PM Reply Like
  • ARGE
    , contributor
    Comments (717) | Send Message
     
    Well all us Axionistas could always get together and form an LLC if we only knew a lawyer.
    PS Shark Tank was tongue-in-cheek by the way.
    28 Sep 2013, 03:35 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (842) | Send Message
     
    Shark tank requires anyone who goes on the show to give the show 5% of the company. Even when you agree to a deal, most don't close. It's just advertising for the company.
    28 Sep 2013, 11:57 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3898) | Send Message
     
    Rugged ... re - "TG's explanation" for the PIPE. For him to imply "his original intention would have been to delay until this summer doing a financing" is a huge load of foul smelling detritus.
    29 Sep 2013, 10:12 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    Any chance that the non-consumer inspired battery OEM could be Exide? I read that they need to reduce Pb expense and could probably use a new product line.
    27 Sep 2013, 03:01 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    Somebody mentioned Exide as a potential partner at yesterday's meeting and the tenor of TG's reaction was, "when hell freezes over."
    27 Sep 2013, 03:47 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... Good to know. I'm going to figure that all of the interest in a partnering arrangement are all European. I can imagine the Chinese being interested but I (and hopefully TG) think that is a nightmare scenario.
    27 Sep 2013, 03:52 PM Reply Like
  • RuggedDC
    , contributor
    Comments (182) | Send Message
     
    The name Exide arose during the Q+A at the meeting and TG seemed to regard the name with disdain...
    27 Sep 2013, 04:12 PM Reply Like
  • nakedjaybird
    , contributor
    Comments (2658) | Send Message
     
    Ya but, some Exide funding may look better than Hell freezing over should another bunch of cash be needed - and with that comes some terms that may be better than the pikers, especially if Exide gains while Axion gains - win-win works; even if it comes after a divorce of sorts.
    27 Sep 2013, 05:04 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    Exide is in bankruptcy. The last thing they have the flexibility to do at this point is make acquisitions or invest in new partnerships. It's simply not in the cards unless Axion wants to buy something from Exide's chapter 11 estate.
    27 Sep 2013, 05:24 PM Reply Like
  • ARGE
    , contributor
    Comments (717) | Send Message
     
    How ironic would it be if Axion bought the AGM plant that Exide build with the grant money instead of partnering to develop the PcB with Axion like the grant intended?
    28 Sep 2013, 02:09 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    It would be incredibly ironic, but the odds that Axion could pull together enough cash to buy a $100 million AGM plant, even at a steep discount, are pretty remote. Besides, the assets that typically get sold in Chapter 11 reorgs are the old worn out facilities rather than the squeaky clean new ones.
    28 Sep 2013, 02:33 PM Reply Like
  • obieephyhm
    , contributor
    Comments (1562) | Send Message
     
    having gone through this, personally, i concur with John . . .
    28 Sep 2013, 08:38 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    DRich, Could be. They know Axion. They need something going forward to grow and distinguish themselves. They have a good feel for what the market is looking for and they have new hopefully better management. They sure need new strategery.

     

    Thus far their answer was Maxwell but that was coined before their current in process BK.
    27 Sep 2013, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... JP's interpretation of TG's reaction to a query as "when hell freezes over" doesn't count it out but means Axion will dictate favorable terms. I mean, Rosewater is back in the fold when I got the hellish vibe from them about Axion. Anything is possible but I try to figure what is most likely. Today it stands as most likely ... NOT.
    27 Sep 2013, 04:04 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1410) | Send Message
     
    RoseWater is back?
    27 Sep 2013, 04:08 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    DRich, Since Axion is standing in financial hell, never say never. I know they have some time but there will be no second change if they don't get any yield out of the last planting.

     

    And BTW, part of my last message was that Exide is not the same company. What did we hear here as hearsay. Rosewater said never as long as TG is at Axion, if true, meaning that people recognize a change in management changes a lot.
    27 Sep 2013, 04:15 PM Reply Like
  • nakedjaybird
    , contributor
    Comments (2658) | Send Message
     
    Agreed:

     

    "Ya but, some Exide funding may look better than Hell freezing over should another bunch of cash be needed - and with that comes some terms that may be better than the pikers, especially if Exide gains while Axion gains - win-win works; even if it comes after a divorce of sorts."
    27 Sep 2013, 05:07 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    NJB, I'm with you. It's not like we're standing in heaven with out latest financial friends. Every opportunity has to be reviewed based on an ever changing landscape.
    27 Sep 2013, 05:12 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    Companyies in Chapter 11 sell assets and close unprofitable operations. They don't make acquisitions or invest in new operating partnerships where they have to provide the financial muscle. Discussing possible synergies at this point is mental masturbation.
    27 Sep 2013, 05:27 PM Reply Like
  • RuggedDC
    , contributor
    Comments (182) | Send Message
     
    FWIW (and it could well be "not much"):

     

    One meeting shareholder-attendee reported seeing one battery in one of the Axion labs with markings "BMW" and battery manufacturer "VARTA" (and German language wording) on it...
    27 Sep 2013, 04:20 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    RuggedDC, Was it an AGM battery or a PbC battery.

     

    BTW, The Varta name brand is a wholly owned subsidiary of JCI.
    27 Sep 2013, 04:26 PM Reply Like
  • RuggedDC
    , contributor
    Comments (182) | Send Message
     
    Alas, I can't recall whether the individual who saw it said one way or the other. Perhaps that person (or someone else) might clarify this point...
    27 Sep 2013, 04:39 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    RuggedDC and Iindelco: I wonder if they were doing some contract evaluation of suitability for application? Wouldn't surprise me. Or maybe part of the effort for the two-battery system development?

     

    ISTR we had some government money for that latter effort. But it's done, no?

     

    HardToLove
    27 Sep 2013, 04:43 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Thanks RuggedDC. Hopefully we'll get more or if it's an Oops we will not hear any more about it. I'm torn!
    27 Sep 2013, 04:52 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2492) | Send Message
     
    I am still on the road and have not had much time to sit in front of a computer, but I plan on writing an evaluation in the coming days.
    Unfortunately, we were running late to the meeting and I did not bring my notepad so my thoughts will come mostly from memory and discussions with the other Axionistas.

     

    Three observations -

     

    Two from the older AGM plant:

     

    There was a seemingly large PbC charging room that had the capability to charge about 1000 PbCs that was pointed out from afar and that was not built last year. (as pointed out by a fellow Axionista).

     

    During the tour in the older plant, we stopped in the lab. I looked at a shelf to my left and noticed a battery that had BMW and Varta labeling on top and some German print stating that it was a closed battery and do not open. I also think the battery said PbC on it, but as I write I am not positive. The battery was the same shape and size as the other batteries that were sitting next to it. I don't really take anything in particular from seeing this, except that it is another data point. My hope is that the grant application will determine this issue one way or another.

     

    In the new electrode plant, there were two applications that were connected to Princeton 10 inverters. I asked Jack Shindle - VP of Engineering - whether the Princeton Power specs which include PbC as a battery referred to lead carbon in general or Axion. He said that it referred to Axion.
    28 Sep 2013, 01:22 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    Stefan
    A bit of clarification.
    "There was a seemingly large PbC charging room that had the capability to charge about 1000 PbCs that was pointed out from afar and that was not built last year. (as pointed out by a fellow Axionista)"

     

    Was not built last year.
    Do you mean it was not there last year?
    And was built during the last year?
    28 Sep 2013, 07:12 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    There are times Stefan when I wish we'd all had Google glass to take photos of anything and everything that caught our eye (and record the fascinating sound bytes).
    28 Sep 2013, 07:26 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    John, Google Glass and sandals. lol

     

    BTW, You're lucky they let you out on the mfg floor. All the similar environments I've been at you'd be SOL. But I think you're an exception!
    28 Sep 2013, 07:33 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I had to beg a bit.
    28 Sep 2013, 08:18 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    A smile for me.
    28 Sep 2013, 11:22 PM Reply Like
  • RuggedDC
    , contributor
    Comments (182) | Send Message
     
    I asked TG whether he or anyone else at Axion pays any attention to this APC blog.

     

    His response was to say that some time back he used to personally look at it occasionally, but that he's received legal opinions from two sources that it is unwise to do so, as the company could be sued for either commissions or omissions with either saying something or NOT saying something with respect to any of its content.

     

    Thus it is Axion company policy to IGNORE our little forum.

     

    He admitted that some employees (on their own) might look at the blog, but that they'd generally be advised not to...
    27 Sep 2013, 04:37 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    RuggedDC: LoL! Probably sound decision. Has a side benefit of reducing stress levels? :-))

     

    HardToLove
    27 Sep 2013, 04:40 PM Reply Like
  • Soonermba
    , contributor
    Comments (8) | Send Message
     
    Appreciate the comments of those that attended the meetings. I am curious about a couple of things...

     

    1. What was the mood/tenor? Was it more "light is at end of tunnel" or "we're trying to survive one day at a time"?

     

    2. Was their any discussion about approach/plans etc for further capitalization in 2014. Did you get any hint they are thinking about it?

     

    3. If the PIPE was needed to assuage potential customers on the financial stability of the company, did TG clarify if it accomplished its intended purpose?

     

    4. Were any of the potential opportunities that have been discussed ad nauseum on this board conspicuously absent from the discussions indicating they have maybe died or are inactive?
    27 Sep 2013, 06:00 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    The mood of the meeting was very upbeat and everybody from top management on down was excited and committed. The stockholders who post on this board are a fairly dour group who sometimes go out of their way to identify risks and worry them to death, but the employees are people with a mission and a vision, and they're clearly proud of what they've accomplished.

     

    When he was asked about additional financing, Tom made it pretty clear that he expects the next round to be success driven rather than survival driven. Most Axionistas want to assume that ongoing business development efforts will continue to be fruitless, but the guys who are tending the orchard seem convinced that the harvest is ripening nicely.

     

    There were a couple new stationary products in the 4 kWh to 10 kWh range and some intriguing new solar powered lighting products that Axion is developing for the mass markets, but there were no absentees among the core business development efforts in automotive, rail, trucking and stationary.

     

    I may be a little biased but I think ePower was the star of the show because it gave attendees a chance to ride in a a hybrid heavy truck that couldn't have made it from Kentucky to New Castle without the PbCs that carried it smoothly over hill and dale at 60 to 70 mph with an engine that has about half the useable power of a Dodge Ram pickup. It also gave them a chance to hear the PbC story from the perspective of a customer, rather than a salesman.

     

    On the trip to Indiana earlier in the week we took two trucks. The ePower hybrid and a Toyota Tundra. When we filled both trucks on the way home, the hybrid took 17 gallons while the Tundra only needed 15 gallons. Not bad given the 18,000 pound weight differential.
    27 Sep 2013, 06:20 PM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (252) | Send Message
     
    Great questions Sooner and thanks for your response JP.

     

    geopark
    27 Sep 2013, 06:26 PM Reply Like
  • timzinski
    , contributor
    Comments (81) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for this great info, John.

     

    And,
    "...intriguing new solar powered lighting products..."

     

    This is very interesting as one of my side businesses at the moment is supplying intelligent LED lighting solutions.
    I am developing clients who want outdoor solar powered parking lot lights.

     

    I hope Axion is developing LED lights because they are more cost effective than CFL's and contain no mercury, and they do not require any special handling or disposal. They last many times longer than CFL's and there is no ballast to change.

     

    Tim
    27 Sep 2013, 08:31 PM Reply Like
  • obieephyhm
    , contributor
    Comments (1562) | Send Message
     
    I have doubts about Axion developing LED lights, per se. More likely their role is in developing a usable means to harness and store the solar-derived energy for use during non-solar hours. But I may be wrong about that.
    27 Sep 2013, 09:00 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    John, Did Axion talk about partners for their new energy storage solutions for UPS and lighting? Is it the same partnership as they have for the larger units? I guess I'm wondering if they have some level of distribution in place for these items as it is clearly not an Axion function.
    27 Sep 2013, 09:01 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Obieephyhm, Clearly your perspective is correct IMO. Axion is supplying the batteries for storage and probably helping with the electronics for charging and draining the batteries.

     

    This is already an existing market so Axion's only possible advantage is their battery technology for some applications.

     

    I was just talking to an electrician a couple weeks ago and he was installing exactly this level of lighting at a local college campus. If I see him again I will ask what they are using for storage.
    27 Sep 2013, 09:19 PM Reply Like
  • Dirtdauber
    , contributor
    Comments (16) | Send Message
     
    Tim,
    Axion, has an LED street light that is powered by a stationary solar panel, with 2 PbC batteries (I do not know the size) inside a ground-mounted, lockable, Princeton-labeled battery/control box that is built to Axion specs to use only PbC batteries. It is installed and operating at the Green Ridge facility. At the reception, I asked Vani how they are to be marketed; he said Axion would, and that he would sell me one (pole not included) if I wanted it. However, I got the feeling that he was partially evading my question, and I speculate (I say again, speculate) that the marketing will likely be by, or largely by, Rosewater, once they can come to an agreement.

     

    Vani said it will cost more than those with LABs & AGMs (which usually fail within 1 to 3 years and have given that line of business a bad name) and less than one with Li ion. He said if you want one to last, this is the one to buy. The batteries can store 100 hours of lighting. It has 2 illumination levels, full and half. I do not know if the 100 hours is all full or if it includes some time at 1/2.

     

    Sounds to me that you need to call Vani.
    28 Sep 2013, 06:56 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    DirtDauber: Good info! Thanks for taking the time to share that with us here!

     

    HardToLove
    28 Sep 2013, 07:09 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1229) | Send Message
     
    A solar street light with batteries.

     

    Is that an 'energy' application or a 'power' application?
    28 Sep 2013, 07:52 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    It's a partial state of charge application. They can get 100 hours of run time from the system which is enough for a wet week and then some.

     

    The reason the application is so hard on conventional lead-acid is that the batteries spend so much time at PSOC.
    28 Sep 2013, 08:19 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1229) | Send Message
     
    I'm digging that answer John!
    28 Sep 2013, 09:20 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... Is this like a competitive product with the lithium street lamp that Don Harmon was working on. Haven't been to his website in a while but last time I was there I didn't see it. I have seen lithium batteried LED street lamps done like the old cast iron gas light street lamps and so far that's it.
    28 Sep 2013, 09:34 PM Reply Like
  • Retired Aviator
    , contributor
    Comments (1469) | Send Message
     
    Dirtdauber,

     

    I had never heard of the solar street light with battery backup concept before. Axion should pursue the military with this! I can see much use for quiet energy that does not require bringing so much (generator) fuel to every location, which of course is a target in itself. Of course, the Cube (with solar panel charging) might accomplish the same thing and more, I don't know. But then they've got to bring a big Cube along which is not always practical or desirable.

     

    Was there any mention at the AGM of testing by the military? I know they have pursued military contracts in the past.

     

    Another application for portable street lights would be all sorts of outdoor events where permanent lighting doesn't make sense to install. Athletic tournaments come to mind.
    28 Sep 2013, 09:58 PM Reply Like
  • Dirtdauber
    , contributor
    Comments (16) | Send Message
     
    R. A.,
    I do not recall any mention of military matters.

     

    The street light they have on display is permanently mounted. I didn't hear any numbers, but I doubt it will be considered cheap.
    29 Sep 2013, 02:05 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    RA, The Chinese have been selling these to poorer regions of the world for some time. Imagine what it means to a village somewhere with no electricity to have a street light or two in the village. There are also smaller lighting units that can be placed outside during the day and offer a few hours of lighting for things like cooking or reading at night.

     

    Going cheaper yet. This company came up with a great idea for the individual units that gets rid or the relatively expensive batteries and solar panel.

     

    http://bit.ly/19grphT
    29 Sep 2013, 10:57 AM Reply Like
  • Retired Aviator
    , contributor
    Comments (1469) | Send Message
     
    ii,

     

    Very interesting article, thank you
    29 Sep 2013, 12:22 PM Reply Like
  • timzinski
    , contributor
    Comments (81) | Send Message
     
    Dirtdauber: Great info, thanks!

     

    I have not ever seen anything about Axion having a solar powered outdoor light solution. If this unit can produce enough lumens and last at least 5 years (with a 5 year warranty) it's a winner.
    The company I am working with is developing a project in Zhambia for solar outdoor lights that cost about $500.00 each.
    Using L-ion batteries that I know won't last 5 years, regardless of any warranty.
    In the U.S. the labor/equipment cost to replace or fix the lights high up on a pole can run over a hundred dollars, so ROI on a longer lasting light system easily justifies a higher cost light, AS LONG AS IT WORKS. The battery is the key.

     

    I will call or e-mail Vani and see what develops.

     

    Tim
    29 Sep 2013, 01:43 PM Reply Like
  • timzinski
    , contributor
    Comments (81) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: Thanks for this link! I will definitely try to get some of these gravity driven lights. I had not heard of them before.

     

    Tim
    29 Sep 2013, 01:54 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Tim, You're quite welcome. It's amazing what you can utilize for power sources once you get down to efficiencies like those found in LED's. This is just a great solution to a big problem.

     

    Sounds like you're working on some good things. Best of luck.
    29 Sep 2013, 02:39 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    IImdelco
    That idea is brilliant. They can also run a radio and charge a battery with it.
    Frankly I would like a few for my house in case of an outage. Not having to worry and buy batteries would be far less annoyance and a cost saving. No need to worry about batteries going bad.

     

    If the thing is durable enough, it could last for over a dozen years. For the target audience. (Those without power at night.)
    29 Sep 2013, 02:42 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >froggey77 ... There is a company in S.Africa that has been producing "watch movement" generators for many years to power LED lamps, charge batteries, operate radios and recently added powering cellphones. All for emergency use. It is a type of energy storage that was briefly explored under Jimmy Carter's energy plan as being cheap, reliable & mobile. At that time the problem was excess (waste) energy required to reset but today with wind used for pumped hydro I think it makes as much sense as that and not hugely expense.

     

    As an example; http://bit.ly/199yerJ
    29 Sep 2013, 02:52 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    DRich
    It may be silly but I look at the crank radios and think Busted spring. The solar ones did I charge it? Is the battery OK after how many years?
    etc.
    For what ever reason I didn't think that with this. Well I did think plastic how durable?
    Personally I don't expect to use it much so major durability is not a problem, but when I need it will it work? That's my desire.
    29 Sep 2013, 03:57 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1428) | Send Message
     
    "There were a couple new stationary products in the 4 kWh to 10 kWh range and some intriguing new solar powered lighting products that Axion is developing for the mass markets..."

     

    Interesting
    27 Sep 2013, 08:08 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4622) | Send Message
     
    check this car out "Extra Terrestrial Vehicle" Cooler than a Tesla

     

    http://yhoo.it/1dOD9gT
    27 Sep 2013, 10:00 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    I saw it the other day. It's built off a GM platform. The video I saw came with real environment background noise and when he took a slow modest turn you could hear the front quarter panel scraping on the road. In other words it's good for showing off, waxing and showing off again. The ground clearance with the chosen suspension is not well engineered. But it is different for sure for a one of a kind car.
    27 Sep 2013, 10:44 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7629) | Send Message
     
    Looks like he copied a lot from the Fastlane car:
    http://bit.ly/18y7m2m

     

    Plus, it's still an ICE.
    28 Sep 2013, 08:55 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2118) | Send Message
     
    I'll bet he has an amazing Hot Wheels collection.
    28 Sep 2013, 09:55 AM Reply Like
  • ARGE
    , contributor
    Comments (717) | Send Message
     
    Neeto, speaking of Tesla, I sat in one last week, it is now off my list. no head room and the top of the windshield was below my vision, even with the seat back.
    I am only 6'1".
    28 Sep 2013, 04:20 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    ARGE
    That surprises me.
    6'1" shouldn't be a problem in a big car.
    28 Sep 2013, 07:55 PM Reply Like