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  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    One of the more interesting nuggets in TG's discussion of the PowerCube was that for frequency regulation and short-term renewables integration, a lithium-ion system needs to have twice the capacity of a PbC system to do the same amount of work.

     

    The reason is the PbC's ability to discharge and recharge faster than almost all lithium-ion batteries.

     

    I didn't really understand the speed of the PbC's charge and discharge capacity until I watched the changing battery pack voltages in the ePower tractor as we went cruising down the highway at 65 mph. Jack Shindle, Axion's VP of Engineering, explained that the typical SOC window for a three or four mile hill climb was in the 20% range. When you crunch the numbers that works out to a "C-rate" of 3 to 4. The only lithium-ion chemistries that can tolerate C-rates that high are the titanates.

     

    For those who are not familiar with the term "C-rate," it is a widely used unit for measuring charge and discharge times. At 1C, the battery charges and discharges at a current that is equal to its rated Ah. For example, 1C charges and discharges a 2Ah battery at 2A; 0.5C at 1A and 0.25C at 0.5A.

     

    If you think about the applications lithium-ion batteries were developed to serve, it becomes obvious that most are designed for discharge rates of 0.25C to 0.5C because a two to four hour run time is a mission critical metric for portable electronics.

     

    While lead-acid has always been able to discharge at rates of up to 5C, charging was a slow process that risked battery damage if charge rates exceeded 0.10C (a 10-hour discharge).
    30 Sep 2013, 06:43 AM Reply Like
  • Nicu Mihalache
    , contributor
    Comments (1081) | Send Message
     
    John, just a question about your remarks on Li-ion. It seems that LiFe have very good charge / discharge rates. For example this battery
    http://bit.ly/1eTKheZ
    claims 15C charging and 40C (continuous) discharging with minimal damage. I know this is still expensive (retail is $2000 / kWh [energy] but $ / W [power] may be better than PbC) and today claims "only" 1000 life cycle, but it does not seem to use scarce / expensive metals so in 5-10 years this may be a serious challenger to PbC (I will take my AXPW profits by that time, btw).
    30 Sep 2013, 08:15 AM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (853) | Send Message
     
    In the 5-10 year window there seems to be a large number of alternate tech being developed. Hopefully there will be more things that need that performance, that have been made possible by the PbC existing.

     

    It seems one of the things slowing the adoption of the PbC is the lack of applications, things that previously were impractical. Like ePower trucks, that previously wouldn't have worked.
    30 Sep 2013, 08:21 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    and Axion is guaranteeing the battery for 5 years (IIRC) of this kind of abuse. Although I'm a battery neophite, that sounds like some really tough parameters for one tough battery.
    30 Sep 2013, 08:21 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    Nicu> In a 10 watt hour pack that operates at 19.8 volts thermal control and cell balancing are not typically major issues. When you start scaling a system by three or four orders of magnitude, the thermal issues get more problematic. When you factor in the reality that all lithium-ion chemistries were developed for room temperature applications and don't like extremes of either hot or cold, performance claims on tiny packs are only moderately interesting.
    30 Sep 2013, 09:06 AM Reply Like
  • Nicu Mihalache
    , contributor
    Comments (1081) | Send Message
     
    That was a 200 Wh (10 Ah x 19.8 V) pack, but of course still small scale. I understand all other properties of PbC (string balancing, thermal robustness). But from a simple minded "power battery" point of view, LiFe seems a very good one. That's why I allow them 5-10 years, to become cheaper and solve / improve all other associated problems. From a non-specialist POV, the hardest technical problems seem to be power, energy, cycle life.
    30 Sep 2013, 09:27 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    Sorry for the brain cramp that caused me to write watt hours instead of amp hours. I'm glad you caught the error.

     

    LiFePO4 is a promising chemistry and nowhere near as resource constrained as other lithium-ion chemistries, but the chemistry been around for a couple decades and that argues agains the possibility that future price declines will be anywhere near as substantial as past price declines have been.

     

    Under the BCG experience curve model, you can expect savings of 20% on value added manufacturing activities from each doubling of cumulative production volumes. Between a low "value added" fraction and substantial cumulative volume, future savings will be a challenge.
    30 Sep 2013, 09:37 AM Reply Like
  • Nicu Mihalache
    , contributor
    Comments (1081) | Send Message
     
    Thanks John, I did not know LFP were in production for so long (but I have integrated in the economical part of my brain the -20% / doubling rule).
    30 Sep 2013, 09:51 AM Reply Like
  • 23808
    , contributor
    Comments (81) | Send Message
     
    JP
    Thanks for the great news that PbC has an advantage over Lithium ion for frequency control.

     

    Now, I don't understand why this advantage is not clearly explained to the world and to axpw stock holders by TG via their website. This type of information will influence an investor's decision.
    30 Sep 2013, 09:56 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    Nicu> Remember that the 20% only applies to "value added" manufacturing activities and materials are typically 60% to 70% of costs in the battery business.

     

    23808> I would like to see a good deal more information on Axion's website, but I do understand the need for small companies to pick their targets carefully and avoid spreading themselves too thin by chasing every opportunity.

     

    With a limited engineering and technical support staff, I'd much rather see Axion focused on serving the needs of customers like BMW, NS, ePower and PowerCube customers instead of trying to serve everybody who stumbles across the website. Selectivity does have its costs in terms of foregone potential revenue, but keeping overhead low is a big benefit.
    30 Sep 2013, 10:10 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1693) | Send Message
     
    This is why I noted earlier that AXPW has a branding problem. In branding, you state in a few words what you do and how what you do differentiates your product from other (similar) products.

     

    As we market now, we make batteries for trains, trucks, mini grids, etc. So, if I don't have one of those I don't know I need the product.

     

    We actually have the perfect solution for anyone who needs very fast charge and discharge, especially for large amperages in hostile temperature environments.
    30 Sep 2013, 10:35 AM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (528) | Send Message
     
    John: My imperfect impression (my technical understanding of what was being said is very limited) was that the main reason for LI having to be double the size of PbC was the heat buildup.

     

    I would believe that they are effectively the same issue since inefficient high C-rate charging would create lots of heat and once the batteries heated up, you'd have to rest them until they could cool down.
    30 Sep 2013, 10:48 AM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (528) | Send Message
     
    Jack Shindle's info on the state of charge of the PbC fluctuating 20% is huge news in my eyes. Remember to keep in mind that in the stop-start scenario, the state of charge of the PbC fluctuated around 1% and the battery was expected to last more than 100,000 events.

     

    Now, we're talking about an application that peaks at 20% along with what I would suspect will be millions of sub-1% fluctuations and likely hundreds of thousands of 1% + fluctuations. My biggest concern regarding the ultimate success of the PbC revolved around this question of what I called "electricity moved". There's a technical term Dr. Buiel used that I can't remember at this moment.

     

    But in theory, you take the amount of electricity moved over the life of the battery and multiply that by the value of the electricity and that gets you a value delivered number that hopefully dramatically exceeds the price of the battery and the system needed to implement the solution. When you see such a long life expectancy with the PbC that is very encouraging.

     

    BTW, a side note about the ePower application is that the PbC enables an externality to the above equation I describe in that it enables a much smaller and more efficient engine to be used. By combining the two effects you can see how powerful the economics become.

     

    30 Sep 2013, 11:10 AM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (1028) | Send Message
     
    JP said "The only lithium-ion chemistries that can tolerate C-rates that high are the titanates."

     

    A123's lithium iron phoshpate can discharge at 30C and charge at 10C and still be rated for several thousand cycles. So, it is not just the expensive titanates.
    30 Sep 2013, 11:14 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    Argonne National Laboratory released a heavy truck hybridization study a couple years ago that focused on the benefits of recuperative braking.

     

    Paper – http://bit.ly/16ZkwBO
    Presentation – http://bit.ly/16Zkz0x

     

    They concluded that heavy regen could improve fuel economy by 20% to 40% in an urban drive cycle, but only 8% to 16% in a long-haul drive cycle.

     

    The reason is simple. They used a 317 kW engine (424 hp) for all three vehicles and didn't derive any fuel economy from engine downsizing. When you can replace a 424 hp engine with a 240 hp engine, the numbers look very different. The improvements in the urban drive cycle stay in the 40% range but the improvements in the long-haul drive cycle climb rapidly.

     

    Until ePower has finished the six-cylinder upgrade we can't know what the final fuel economy numbers will be, but Jay is really bullish when you get him away from the crowds in a one-on-one conversation.
    30 Sep 2013, 11:17 AM Reply Like
  • Steve Bay
    , contributor
    Comments (38) | Send Message
     
    How does PbC powercube application stack up against flow battery technology? Flow seems better suited for renewable integration and frequency regulation, correct? Don't flow batteries have better discharge characteristics and longer lifetimes, and especially no more thermal runaway danger? In particular, ZBB (http://www.zbbenergy.com) and Primus power (http://bit.ly/18FSjDN)

     

    What are your remarks?
    30 Sep 2013, 11:54 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    Flow batteries are designed to provide stable power for several hours at a time. While they're great for renewables time-shift applications that collect electricity from solar panels during the day and deliver it at night, their ability to respond to short-duration events (seconds to a few minutes) like you see in frequency regulation and renewables smoothing is very limited because most of the energy is stored in electrolyte tanks that have to be pumped through a reaction chamber to produce power.

     

    The easiest intellectual construct for batteries is to break them into three classes:

     

    Seconds – Where discharge durations are less than 15 minutes;
    Minutes – Where discharge durations are typically 15 to 120 minutes; and
    Hours – Where discharge durations are greater than two hours.

     

    It's not a perfect classification system, but it is functional. Using that classification system, supercapacitors and flywheels are in the seconds group; the PbC and lithium-ion power batteries are in the seconds to minutes group; and flow batteries, NaS and lithium-ion energy batteries are in the hours group.
    30 Sep 2013, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • Patrick Young
    , contributor
    Comments (1441) | Send Message
     
    In other words, a large solar installation that wants to be connected to the grid directly during the day for peak load as well as store excess power for nighttime use so-as to always operate near 100% capacity during daylight, might combine a flow-battery or flywheel in tandem with a lithium-ion battery, oh, but wait, there's a better, cheaper alternative to a li-ion battery - PbC!
    30 Sep 2013, 12:21 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >Patrick Young ... If you're going to use an Axion PbC to buffer a windfarm, you can throw the flywheel away also. A PbC will respond within 500ms (or is it 50ms, I forget) which for the grid is plenty fast enough.
    30 Sep 2013, 12:41 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    DRich: I recall substantially < 50ms.

     

    HardToLove
    30 Sep 2013, 01:28 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2737) | Send Message
     
    apm (or JP, of course!)---was JP saying the ePower truck takes the PbC batteries down to 20% State of Charge, or down 20% from 100% to 80%?
    30 Sep 2013, 01:51 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    "The PowerCube has achieved an average daily score above 94 (out of 100) on the complex PJM scoring methodology due in part to the asset's 55 millisecond response time."

     

    http://bit.ly/15Gjj1X

     

    Edit: Basically 3 cycles at 60 Hz.
    30 Sep 2013, 02:41 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >H.T. Love & iindelco ... Thanks. It's hard to keep everything at the top of the mind. So, 55ms it is. That is plenty fast enough that even though my computer will see it, it won't flip its little silicon lid over it. My coffee pot won't care at all.
    30 Sep 2013, 02:56 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    Mr. I> It's more like up and down within a 15% range from a target SOC of 80%.
    30 Sep 2013, 03:06 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2737) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, John.
    30 Sep 2013, 04:04 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2769) | Send Message
     
    Seriously complex stuff need even better.
    This paper talks about half cycles loss as a problem.
    Power-Fail Comparator for
    NVRAM Supervisory Devices
    DEALING WITH UNEXPECTED POWER LOSS
    http://bit.ly/14ZaSBA

     

    Yeah my non-battery backup digital clock would handle it.
    The cloud? Not so much.
    30 Sep 2013, 08:00 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (985) | Send Message
     
    thotdoc

     

    "... you state in a few words what you do and how what you do differentiates your product from other (similar) products."

     

    Spot on...sometimes the "techies" need a 'translator"...analogous to many disciplines....technic... financial...
    medical, and, having some familial experience, psychological...
    30 Sep 2013, 08:58 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (985) | Send Message
     
    apm

     

    " By combining the two effects you can see how powerful the economics become."

     

    Agreed...see thatdoc 'branding".
    30 Sep 2013, 09:02 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7996) | Send Message
     
    "The only lithium-ion chemistries that can tolerate C-rates that high are the titanates."

     

    False. Lithium iron phosphate, such as A123 and CALB, can do so, and some of the lithium polymers can do up to 90C, though they can be volatile.
    2 Oct 2013, 08:43 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1616) | Send Message
     
    Numero DOS!!
    30 Sep 2013, 07:22 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (799) | Send Message
     
    Again: Tercero!!!
    30 Sep 2013, 07:39 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    "Since the 85% prices are now barely above $0.11, I think we can expect the next true-up and new payment to be followed by less than $0.12 as a normal price for a month or so unless big news appears. I don't expect this in the next two or three weeks. When prices below $0.12 will become normal is something I won't guess. News and/or unexpected support from folks that see $0.12xx range as a very low-risk proposition might occur".

     

    While working (still!) to get my EOD stuff up for (now) 9/23 EOW, I penned the above. I thought it might warrant a post now. Since we have already dipped to less than $0.12 once, meeting my expectations, the < $0.12 "normal" for a while seems doable.

     

    HardToLove
    30 Sep 2013, 08:29 AM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    Could someone please tell me when the next earnings report will be due? Thanks. Bang
    30 Sep 2013, 03:05 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Last year it was Nov. 15th.
    30 Sep 2013, 03:18 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    The Form 10-Q must be filed by the close of business on November 14th, which is why the CC is typically scheduled for the morning of the 15th.
    30 Sep 2013, 04:41 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    Thanks to you both.
    1 Oct 2013, 11:20 AM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1488) | Send Message
     
    Bangs' thinkin' about jumpin' back in.... I can feel it!
    30 Sep 2013, 03:13 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1616) | Send Message
     
    I will only buy some more if I think that real progress on the sales front is being made, and nothing less will change my mind (and I am known to be very stubborn ;))
    30 Sep 2013, 05:16 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    My intra-day statistics instablog commentary now updated through 9/24 and charts through EOD today, 9/30.

     

    http://bit.ly/16AZ3it

     

    HardToLove
    EDIT: Correct today's chart date to 9/30
    30 Sep 2013, 06:45 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2769) | Send Message
     
    OK
    People have been asking for it so I did a deep dive into my history and pulled out a post I made last November. 90 pages just to get into the time period and then I had to find it. So I hope it useful.
    Sorry SA's 2 pages at a time to get to past comments makes me a bit cranky. Can You tell?

     

    Anyway somehow I lucked into the Oct 2012 performance report. No I can't pull up the paper anymore but as I got it by a fluke I typed out the words. All pictures and graphs are lost.

     

    That month our score was 92+ and has gone up to 94+ per Axion's recent PR.

     

    Performance Scores last October ranged from 40% to 98%,

     

    Here is the original post minus the link that doesn't work and stuff that seems unnecessary at present.
    http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    <
    I got the Power point results of the PMJ pay for performance study for October.

     

    It's 5 Pages long I'll post them in case they disappear.

     

    Pg 1
    Performance Based Regulation Results since 10/1 Go-Live

     

    Pg 2
    Prices Including LOC and Performance Adjustments
    •Average total clearing price 10/1 through 10/14.
    $38.05 / MW
    –Includes Lost Opportunity Cost from each five-minute pricing interval
    •State of the Market had 30-40% of payments outside market
    •Impact of LOC transparent to the market for the first time
    –Includes performance adjustments
    –On average, 75-80% of the clearing price will be paid in settlements after performance adjustments
    •Average total clearing price 9/24 through 9/30.
    $13.02 / MW

     

    Pg 3

     

    Resource Mix
    •Through two weeks, Dynamic Resources have accounted for up to 17% of the effective regulation requirement off-peak; up to 12% on-peak.
    •Performance Scores ranged from 40% to 98%, reflecting the ability of each resource to follow the regulation control signals.
    •On average, about 70 MW reduction in the amount of assigned regulation
    –Entered market with roughly 10% buffer in the regulation requirement to ensure proper control.
    –This will be about 150 MW if we have the reduction to the 0.70% requirement in coming months

     

    Pg 4

     

    System Control
    •NERC control criteria have remained steady compared to the week before the cutover
    –CPS-1 average before 150.6; after 148.6
    –CPS-2 average before 93.8; after 94.14
    •BAAL has not change significantly but that tends to be influenced less with our current control
    •More data is needed but it looks feasible to make the next step to transition the effective regulation requirement from 0.78% to ~0.74%.

     

    Pg 5
    Unfortunately pg 5 is a graph and I can't post it.
    Here's the title.

     

    Performance and Capability Clearing Prices
    <

     

    As I said Performance Scores ranged from 40% to 98%,
    Axion was 92+. (92.6 if I remember correctly)

     

    I assume others got better as we did probably in proportion. The 40 point performers probably got 10 points or so better and the 98 pointer perhaps 1 point better.
    Compared to Axion's 2 point improvement. That's a WAG.

     

    OK hope that helps.

     

    Edit:
    Addition of the following post by Stefan Moroney

     

    Benefits factor set of slides:

     

    http://tinyurl.com/b7y...
    30 Sep 2013, 07:21 PM Reply Like
  • anthlj
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    Thanks frog
    Questions now are:
    How much more do you earn 98 vs 94?
    Who got the higher scores?
    1 Oct 2013, 05:29 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2639) | Send Message
     
    AnthIj -

     

    I tried to pose this question a couple times to Vani, but only received evasive responses and that combined cycle turbines are below the 70% threshold.

     

    Despite my questioning, I still do not have a good grasp of how the PC stacks up against similar competitors for frequency regulation except for the statement that lithium ion would require a system twice the size to get the same performance.

     

    I also asked whether we could expect a white paper on the PC similar to the microhybrid white paper and the question was acknowledged as it being potentially a good marketing tool, but I am not sure if one will be forthcoming.
    1 Oct 2013, 08:38 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    In frequency regulation I expect all battery-based systems to be in the same general performance range when it comes to signal response and other critical metrics. It's one of those areas where product differentiation may prove to be difficult. If so, purchasing decisions will ultimately boil down to price performance and reliability.
    1 Oct 2013, 08:46 AM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2769) | Send Message
     
    I expect JP is right. Chemistry is chemistry and th electronics that control them are similar as are transmission times etc.

     

    So to guess what would be faster, Flywheels and another offbeat idea. I remember a waste-water treatment plant that was going to increase or reduce power to some of the machinery to soak up more or less power from the grid. That might be faster. (Just a guess folks)

     

    Stefan
    "Despite my questioning, I still do not have a good grasp of how the PC stacks up against similar competitors for frequency regulation except for the statement that lithium ion would require a system twice the size to get the same performance."

     

    http://yhoo.it/1arINEl
    <
    The PowerCube has achieved an average daily score above 94 (out of 100) on the complex PJM scoring methodology due in part to the asset's 55 millisecond response time. Axion's experience with PJM, and their proven track record of 94 plus scores, would seem to place the PowerCube in an excellent position to take advantage of the California initiative.
    >
    Axion clearly thinks those numbers are good

     

    From the transcript.
    http://bit.ly/W3SHlB

     

    Martin Smith
    Do we have any insight into how others do?

     

    Tom Granville - CEO
    We’re trying to find that out as a matter of fact. No, we haven't been able to do great detective work there yet. It’s a new program and they are a lot of people participating in it, more and more are participating every day, but this pay for performance was something that we were looking forward to if you look back on some of our previous calls and some of our press releases, we spoke about that, that was coming and that was going to be very helpful to us and one of the reasons that it was going to be very helpful to us is because of the unique capabilities of the battery and responding as quickly as it can.
    >
    So as of Q3 cc call last Nov. Axion had no idea who all was in it and who got what scores and how they ranked. Apparently PJM was not going to tell them either. (Which makes my stumbling across that presentation even more unlikely.)
    While I expect they have a better Idea now It's possible they don't have a complete answer.
    1 Oct 2013, 12:59 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (733) | Send Message
     
    Froggy

     

    I wonder if any other technology that has been evaluated has performed better than 94%? I ask the question because I have "invested" the better part of $200k in Axion based very much on this grid concept.

     

    How can we find out how the other contenders have performed and at what price point?
    1 Oct 2013, 01:32 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2769) | Send Message
     
    Anthj
    "How much more do you earn 98 vs 94?"

     

    Not much.
    I think for every dollar they would pay for generation With a score of 94 the PC gets.
    $1 X 1.94 = $1.94
    The 98 would get 4 cents more.
    However this gets broken up. Veridity, Axion and any other company involved each get their share.

     

    AIB
    "I wonder if any other technology that has been evaluated has performed better than 94%?"

     

    Somebody got 98 the first month.

     

    I don't see it as likely a battery would be much faster. (Hence my suggestion of Flywheels and motors at the waste treatment plant.)
    The reality is it may be some other metric we are missing. Not speed.
    For instance Veridity bids for the option to regulate the grid. lowest cost provider gets a higher score. I expect waste water is a very low cost provider as they didn't have to build anything. They just had to wire the motors up to the communications from PJM and poof they were done. So I expect they are low cost providers.
    I'm guessing they are speedy as well. They may not be. Someone with more knowledge of motors feel free to educate me.

     

    "Who got higher scores
    How can we find out how the other contenders have performed and at what price point? "

     

    Axion stated in the transcript.
    They didn't know who got what and they didn't even have a rank compared to others. At the time more people were still joining fast.

     

    Stefan said he couldn't get a straight answer. I expect they don't know.
    However to find this out, be on the CC early and ask the question.

     

    I'm afraid to find out some stuff on your own would be a massive frustrating enterprise. Not all companies necessarily have stock and if they do is the PJM thing big enough for their stockholder to pay attention?

     

    Here is the National Database of Energy Storage.
    http://tinyurl.com/pfp...
    It is not complete and does not have Axion. :(
    How many others are missing I have no Idea.
    Nearly all performance numbers are "Not Available"
    Note:
    The few numbers I have found did not = PJMs combo score, but rather pieces of it.

     

    In articles such as this they talk about AES and PJM and how they connect but no performance numbers.

     

    PJM Gets Some Regulated Service from Battery-Based Energy Storage
    http://bit.ly/19VGB51

     

    Here's a link to PJMs news letter.
    RTO insider
    Your eyes and ears at PJM interconnection.
    http://bit.ly/17tWrGC
    Interesting info but I didn't see the information you want. (I didn't read everything)

     

    Sorry I can't be of more help but Axion appears to be the only one talking.
    Which I find as a hopeful sign.
    2 Oct 2013, 05:41 PM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (278) | Send Message
     
    I'd be interested in seeing what the cost per MW is for these lithium ion based battery storage projects.
    3 Oct 2013, 11:13 AM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2769) | Send Message
     
    A couple of tidbits on Fords EV and PHEVs.

     

    MyFord Mobile Data Show Ford Plug-Ins Use Enough Electric-Only Miles to Circle World Eight Times -- Every Day
    http://on.wsj.com/19S5Czj

     

    Aggregate data from MyFord(R) Mobile app show customers drive more than 8,400 electric-only miles every hour and about 203,000 electric-only miles daily -- enough to travel around the earth's equator nearly eight times.

     

    Data show that for plug-in hybrids, the number of all-electric trips increases by nearly 50 percent after the first six months of ownership, due to improved driving habits acquired through the use of exclusive features and a rapidly growing infrastructure, including Ford's expanding workplace charging network.

     

    The number of electric-only miles is expected to continue increasing, as data suggest driving habits evolve for new hybrid owners through the use of MyFord Mobile and other features such as SmartGauge(R) with EcoGuide. After six months, nearly 30 percent of all trips are gas-free compared with about 20 percent at the beginning of vehicle ownership.

     

    Unfortunately they don't give an aggregate total.
    30 Sep 2013, 08:18 PM Reply Like
  • JohnM121
    , contributor
    Comments (396) | Send Message
     
    ZBB may be getting involved in some lighter trucks. From the conference call:

     

    "Crosspoint Kinetics, which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Cummins. Crosspoint has announced the introduction of their second generation [S300] hybrid system. This is the most cost effective retrofitable hybrid system in the class three to class six truck market.
    Based on their third-party field validations, the system is shown an up to 30% fuel efficiency improvement. They expect full production of the product by the end of calendar year 2013."

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    30 Sep 2013, 10:44 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2639) | Send Message
     
    JohnM -

     

    The ZBB CC and their last investor presentation were interesting and worth reading and listening to (the investor presentation has slides and a half hour presentation on the website).

     

    However, ZBB's demos have done nothing to really move the needle and it seems their Cummins hybrid project is going into regular production by the end of the year. (in other words, it is much further along than ePower at this point).

     

    As I stated before, I hope that Axion and for that matter ZBB can get enough one off sales to extend their runway until they can close some type of recurring deal that will give a legitimate vision of cashflow breakeven, b/c bunny rabbits and butterflies will not keep the doors open for either company.

     

    P.S. - I enjoyed my visit to New Castle and hope that the company's future success will bring me back on another visit.
    1 Oct 2013, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • Nathan Kemalyan MD
    , contributor
    Comments (564) | Send Message
     
    so...if I've been reading correctly, the next 10 class 8 trucks won't hit the road until early 2014. No sense buying more batteries until there are trucks in which to install them. It's not likely there'll be more locomotives built before 999 gets out of the repair bay and puts some serious hours in the switching yard. There's no news of any significance from automobile companies. That leaves the stationary installations, small to large, as the next frontier. Best I can tell, these are ready to move into operation whenever someone starts buying, no? There are lots of islands out there, gigawatts of solar installations in the pipeline all over the world, increasing wind-power installations...when is the grid-level storage story going to break, even it's only microgrids?
    If I had even an inkling of when some kind of flow was likely to take place, I'd place another bet. On the other hand, since trucks and trains aren't likely to make up any late 2013 orders, then it has to be the stationary market that TG has been hinting about, no? Maybe 12 cents is the floor we've all been waiting for...
    1 Oct 2013, 01:06 AM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1488) | Send Message
     
    Hi Nathan: I've enjoyed your commentary and "thinking out loud".

     

    Your summation above pretty much sums up what I'm thinking. Something (news wise) out of stationary in the near future while we wait for planes, trains and automobiles (so to speak).
    1 Oct 2013, 03:05 AM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (714) | Send Message
     
    Nathan, + 1

     

    VW
    1 Oct 2013, 08:39 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2639) | Send Message
     
    Nathan,

     

    I agree with your estimate. At this point and for me, the ePower application is an interesting project, but still nothing more than a project. (IMO - the Hub was not an interesting project and a waste of time and resources). ePower is still working on its third and hopefully final prototype with a new engine. Not sure how long it will take to get all the kinks worked out, but if anything is a rule around here - Everything takes longer than anticipated.

     

    Six months to a year ago, the main avenue to regular recurring revenues was automotive. If Axion is now going the stationary storage route, I think ZBB becomes a suitable comparable for what to expect for the time being and they have a good number of demonstrations already in service. What I take from that is that Axion will need more demonstrations in service for an extended period of time besides the sole PC at their factory to generate the data necessary for customers to bite. Vani indicated that he needs to get a couple of the projects out into the field. I agree, but also think that those projects will need to generate data before many others will bite.

     

    Generally, my two comments do not take away the possibility that something will pop somewhere over the next six months to a year in auto, which is why I am still here. I am just not as excited as I used to be and at this time I would not be able to justify recommending this stock to a new purchaser.
    1 Oct 2013, 08:49 AM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (714) | Send Message
     
    Stefan, I think you kinda have this the way I see it. There's a lot of wiggle room, but your outline seems reasonable.

     

    It is forever foolish to make argument over personal anecdote, however I'll risk it and disagree with you over the Hub. Axion shorta had the pieces arranged "hub-like" in the far corner and they seem (to my eyes anyway) not to have formalized a system yet.

     

    Anyway, I visualize and hoped they would bring to market a small ( 6 x 6 maybe) solar array, battery "box", and four-cylinder LP (or diesel) engine for country home backup. Don't know if it's a good idea, so you may be right, but I am having a system installed right now for power backup. 1,000 gal. propane tank, buried, lines to the house expanded, 34KW genset with a six-cylinder engine all with associated switching and power management electronics. $30,000.

     

    We don't live in a $1M masion. It's comfortable, but nothing like that. It is however essential we have backup and we are spending considerable bucks to ensure clean power during snowstorms and severe weather blackouts, both of which we have had. Don't know if that cost hurdle is sufficient for a Hub, but I'd rather have given my money to my own company rather than an outsider. Not sayin'. Just sayin'.

     

    Power outages in the country can be very painful. Particularly for folks (such as we) who have total electric homes. For the price of a new car I can guarantee nice clean power (cleaner than Dominion on the grid) and keep it going for maybe three weeks.
    2 Oct 2013, 09:17 AM Reply Like
  • Patrick Young
    , contributor
    Comments (1441) | Send Message
     
    To echo JP,

     

    There are a number of battery technologies out there and many customers are understandably skeptical of performance claims because Li-ion is always less reliable than than the Tesla's of the world would have you believe. Think about your smartphone. That being said, only ZBB and Axion have multi-year field testing of grid storage devices.
    2 Oct 2013, 03:54 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3444) | Send Message
     
    Thatsa spicy meatball system there VW, pretty robust. Imagine though if you somehow could have (say) a 10KWh Axion mini-cube in there as part of the mix---that way instead of having to run that *huge* ;) 34KW genset continuously in order to keep the lights on, you might only have to run it a couple three times a day for maybe a half an hour or so to recharge the PbC bank... Heck, on that schedule, a tank of propane might last three months, not three weeks...

     

    Too bad the whole thing isn't sold as an integrated package---Hub, PbC bank, LP genset, maybe a few solar panels up top... could be attractive to a certain subset of folks just like you...
    2 Oct 2013, 05:28 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (853) | Send Message
     
    Don't think you could, "run it a couple three times a day for maybe a half an hour or so to recharge the PbC bank". Likely what you could do is not have to run it so often because more of the varying energy from the solar was actually captured by the PbC.
    2 Oct 2013, 07:05 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    Capturing solar is not a problem because it's either slow steady state charging or absent. It's a completely different dynamic than uses like recuperative braking events that go from zero charging power to 160 kW in a fraction of a second.
    2 Oct 2013, 07:09 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3444) | Send Message
     
    GT,

     

    Just to get an idea of the rough parameters, Let's say a homeowner has a 20KWh PbC battery bank. Say his house draws like 3KW average continuous, which is a pretty healthy load... Say the battery bank will be drawn from 90% SOC down to 30% before recharging via the generator. So that's a 60% SOC delta x 20KWh = 12 KWh that the generator needs to replace with each charging cycle. Say with charging efficiency losses the generator needs to actually supply 15KWh. If it's a 30KW generator then it will need to run for approximately 30 mins to charge the bank back up to 90% SOC. The generator then cuts out. And at a 3KW draw, it should then take like 4 hours or so to drain the battery back down to 30% SOC, at which point another half-hour of charging would be necessitated. Lather, rinse, repeat. So okay that would be recharging like 5 times a day, but could be fewer times if the house draws less. Add in some solar panels and it helps even more. Mileage may vary of course depending on the load, but still by my lights, would beat running the generator 24x7...

     

    Such a big battery and generator would certainly be a luxury for a lot of people, but for some people could make a lot of sense...
    2 Oct 2013, 09:00 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4135) | Send Message
     
    "Capturing solar is not a problem because it's either slow steady state charging or absent."

     

    Assuming clear skies. It is my understanding, though, that variable cloudiness causes wide and sometimes sharp fluctuation in solar power generation.
    3 Oct 2013, 11:06 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    Wide and sharp are very relative terms. If you're talking about a 10 kW solar array and a 2 kWh battery pack, then the instantaneous and sustained charge rates can approach 5C. If you're talking about a 10 kW array and a 25 kWh battery pack, the charge rates are more like C/2.5.

     

    The first would be a challenge for many batteries. The second is no big deal.
    3 Oct 2013, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (853) | Send Message
     
    So, a "feeder array" could really need the performance of a PbC. When you have a many farms and want to cut corners, buying smaller individual batteries makes sen$e, with the right battery.
    3 Oct 2013, 11:40 AM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (853) | Send Message
     
    As I recall, governments (large and small) tend to place orders around the first of the fiscal year (that would be today).
    I expect some purchase confirmations any day now.
    1 Oct 2013, 07:28 AM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (733) | Send Message
     
    Pity about the US Government shutdown which starts today. Lets hope these issues get sorted out very soon.
    1 Oct 2013, 07:56 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    Unusual pre-market trade of 10K @ $0.1215 @ 09:15:46. Bid/ask at that time $0.1215/$0.122.

     

    HardToLove
    1 Oct 2013, 09:18 AM Reply Like
  • Patrick Young
    , contributor
    Comments (1441) | Send Message
     
    so?
    1 Oct 2013, 10:21 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Hey HTL, Can you tell me who the mm is that's buying at .12 USD?
    1 Oct 2013, 12:26 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: No can do. When the bid is hit and no reduction is seen on the asks, no way to tell where the trade came from.

     

    If time and sales would show exchanges - only one shows for OTC - then we could make a guess at least.

     

    HardToLove
    1 Oct 2013, 12:32 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Thanks HTL. Bummer!
    1 Oct 2013, 12:34 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Ergon says renewables and batteries may be cheaper than grid

     

    http://bit.ly/16EDTGe
    1 Oct 2013, 10:49 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    A new power grid battery emerges with a deal from Siemens

     

    "A new type of low cost power grid battery, backed by Bill Gates and VCs like Kleiner Perkins, uses basic materials and has an important deal with power grid giant Siemens."

     

    http://bit.ly/16EECam
    1 Oct 2013, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1693) | Send Message
     
    So, the sodium and carbon gets around Axion's patents?
    1 Oct 2013, 11:28 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Yes, Axion is lead-carbon.
    1 Oct 2013, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1693) | Send Message
     
    Thnk you
    1 Oct 2013, 12:31 PM Reply Like
  • danpm4life
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    iindelco, thanks for the post. What caught my eye is not the Siemens company but the startup company AQUION Energy, which is not a public, but private company.

     

    http://buswk.co/1brHLsm

     

    The other thing that caught my eye is that “AQUION managed to raise $20 million back in 2011 and started working on another $35 million earlier this year. Investors in the company include Bill Gates, Bright Capital, Gentry Venture Partners, Kleiner Perkins and Foundation Capital. Kleiner Perkins’ David Wells played a key role in helping incubate the technology and Whitacre and Kleiner sponsored an incubator at Carnegie Mellon for Whitacre to develop the tech.” I’ll bet that the $20m raised & the $35m financing planned for 2013 looks nothing like AXPW’s pipe financing.

     

    I was trying to remember where I saw the AQUION name. I previously wrote, relative to the CA 1.3 gigawatts of energy storage mandate:

     

    Thanks gezeke for getting the Axion story out to Dr. Barnhart of Stanford. I was impressed that Dr. Barnhart wrote; “1) I will certainly contact Axion and other promising storage technologies, AQUION for example, to obtain life cycle data. Four variables determine the energetic performance of a storage technology: roundtrip efficiency, depth-of-discharge, cycle life, and embodied energy per unit capacity.”

     

    “The only thing that would disappoint me, is if Axion mgt. waited for the Dr. Barnhart’s contact, instead of rolling out the red carpet, and providing Dr. Barnhart with an authorized list of Axion contacts for his follow up study.”

     

    So Dr. Barnhart was already aware of Aquion, which is based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, before being made aware of Axion by gezeke. So what needs to happen.

     

    1) Jack Shindle, Vani Dantam, or ? needs to contact Dr. Barnhart of Stanford to be proactive in opening the Axion doors to his follow study for the PowerCube stats. As Dr. Barnhart wrote: “My study should not disappoint Axion, but instead be a claim of pride used by the company.
    2) Have Axion's new CFO, or hired gun, IMMEDIATELY begin contacting all the Investors noted in the Aquion/Siemen post to raise financing.

     

    From what I read, Aquion’s only focus is the Axion’s PowerCube equivalent. The above investors have already voted, with their $’s, for grid energy storage, how much more might they be interested with a company that is further along with it’s development & manufacturing process AND have the option to supply trains, trucks & autos?
    1 Oct 2013, 04:50 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    Companies like Aquion have it relatively easy in the finance arena because prospective venture investors do a deep dive on technological merit and intrinsic value. The last financing transaction Axion did that put an intrinsic value on the company was the 2009 financing that valued Axion at $125 million.

     

    Since 2009 all of the financing transactions have involved stock market investors who couldn't care less about technological merit and intrinsic value. The only thing the more recent investors care about is the quoted price and volume in the public market.

     

    Being public can be great fun if a company has an enthusiastic stockholder base that drives the price to unreasonably high levels like Tesla. It can be miserable if a company has a few unlucky market breaks and it's stockholder base makes a blood sport of pulling the price down.

     

    I've been in regular contact with Dr. Barnhart since March of this year when his first ESOI article was published and I used it as a basis for an article.

     

    http://bit.ly/107uA7i

     

    While I have a great deal of respect for Dr. Barnhart's academic skills he is a pure academic and has no value to a company that's trying to market a product. His analysis focuses exclusively on energy invested vs energy returned and his underlying assumptions about the "roundtrip efficiency, depth-of-discharge, cycle life, and embodied energy" of various energy storage technologies are, to be kind, hopium laced.
    1 Oct 2013, 05:25 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1616) | Send Message
     
    JP,

     

    Care to explain the core technology behind the Aquion product? What does Aqueous Hybrid Ion mean and does it work on the electrolyte level, or rather on one (or both) electrode?

     

    Thanks
    1 Oct 2013, 05:30 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... It has always been a worrisome mystery to me why Axion has never attracted any investors that see the intrinsic value of the technology since that financing round. I've come to the baseless conclusion the Exide debacle is the reason. It was good for the company to split ways but a black mark to perspective investors.
    1 Oct 2013, 05:36 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    I don't know much about the Aquion technology beyond what's already been said about them using manganese and carbon electrodes in a salt water electrolyte. That would make it a low voltage battery with relatively slow charge and discharge characteristics. As near as I can tell, their principal target markets are renewable time shift applications that present daunting economic challenges in places that don't rely on oil for power generation.

     

    If you want to drill down further into Aquion's technology, their website offers far more detail.

     

    http://bit.ly/sWgFSo
    1 Oct 2013, 05:36 PM Reply Like
  • danpm4life
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    JP, thanks for your post. Your breadth of knowledge continues to amaze me. So are you an environmental engineer masquerading as an attorney? For me, a lot of the engineering technology goes way over my head, which is why this blog is so valuable, with electrical conversion & financial spreadsheets, & other data etc which helps us non-engineer types. The engineers (& the masquerading attorney) & others that contributed to these blogs helped convince me that Axion’s technology is sound & a game changer, but is looking for it’s 1st large game changing sale. In your attached post, you summarized:

     

    “The ESOI metric proposed by Stanford's Global Climate and Energy Project is a tremendously effective way for serious investors to separate sensible battery-enabled energy conservation from unconscionable waste and pollution masquerading as conservation. It highlights the insanity of investing as much primary energy in a battery as the battery will store over its useful life. It can also help investors identify compelling economic opportunities that are not always obvious. In the final analysis, unless the fundamental economics and energy balance work, story stocks can't work.”

     

    The purpose of getting Dr. Barnhart together with Axion now is not so much to help Axion, although it should also do that, but to help get the study metrics right so that the utilities, mandated to buy the storage, are comparing apple to apples when evaluating the options, and deciding who to invite for the RFP process. CA, for 2014, has the state’s big three utilities buying up to 200 megawatts of energy storage.

     

    http://bit.ly/16fbsMq

     

    Axion, by its 9/10/13 Press Release, signaled their interest in the CA market.

     

    http://bit.ly/17U9WNR

     

    It’s not too soon to have a Stanford research study updated & published, that highlights Axion’s technology advantage & supports the RFP choices of the utility companies.

     

    Dr. Barnhart also wrote: “The goal of the paper was to develop a theoretical framework that could be used in policy and research.” And: “We set an energetic benchmark (curtailment) that adds to a discussion dominated by financial benchmarks. If a financially cheap carbon intensive storage technologies win out then as a society we've missed the point. Axion certainly is a huge step in the right direction.” He seems to share your viewpoint to get all the comparable evaluation cards on the table. Here is the full letter that was in gezeke (Gregg’s) RAISING AWARENESS 9/12/13 post.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    1 Oct 2013, 08:28 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    I'm not an engineer or a chemist, but the job of every good securities lawyer is to understand enough about the science to explain it to a layman. I don't have to be able to do the work of engineers and scientists, but I do have to understand what they're doing and why. In any event, thanks for the kind words.

     

    The big problem with Barnhart's analysis is his focus on energy stored vs energy invested instead of the dollars and cents economic factors that will drive buying decisions. The first is an interesting intellectual exercise. The second is far more pragmatic and valuable.

     

    The market's awareness of Axion is orders of magnitude greater than it was a few years ago. That awareness is minimal at the individual investor level but the industry people who really count are watching with great interest because all the available data points indicate that the PbC is the first step change advance in lead-acid battery technology since the development of valve regulated batteries (AGM and Gel) in the 70s.
    1 Oct 2013, 08:52 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2169) | Send Message
     
    I looked at the physics and chemistry, briefly, of the water based electrolyte, Sodium ion battery in question. My main thought was that it is DEFINITELY an energy battery. It has relatively high internal impedance, which will waste much energy if it is discharged anywhere over 0.1C. Hand waving acknowledged, but the basics are not in question.

     

    So the Na+ ion cell has an application space because of its, supposedly, lower cost/kWh. But is isn't a competitor for the POWER uses of the PbC.
    2 Oct 2013, 01:53 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2769) | Send Message
     
    Thanks SHB
    2 Oct 2013, 02:23 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    'Preciated SHB!

     

    HardToLove
    2 Oct 2013, 02:59 PM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (302) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco and anyone else

     

    Thanks for the link. Read the article and the Aquion one page PDF:
    Carbon anode
    Manganese Oxide cathode
    Salt water electrolyte

     

    Anyone care to suggest where this "new battery of the week" might fit in and whether it is a potential competitor to Axion?

     

    geopark
    1 Oct 2013, 11:38 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    It looks more like an energy flow battery. Not a power battery. I doubt it likes being cycled often and probably is pretty picky about PSOC. A capacitor or a PbC probably would help.

     

    Likely years away from viability. General Electric (GE) or NGK Insulators Ltd. (NGKIF) are its likely competitors.
    1 Oct 2013, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (302) | Send Message
     
    Thanks DRich,

     

    geopark
    1 Oct 2013, 11:50 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Yes. More of an energy storage battery.

     

    http://bit.ly/1boShUx
    1 Oct 2013, 12:06 PM Reply Like
  • Patrick Young
    , contributor
    Comments (1441) | Send Message
     
    Main competitors for grid storage are Axion, ZBB, Primus, Aquion, Eos Energy, GE Durathon. However, the market is so big that there will be opportunities for all.
    1 Oct 2013, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • Patrick Young
    , contributor
    Comments (1441) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/1boXfRk
    Read this page to get an idea of why I buy anybody who is making inroads in this market.
    1 Oct 2013, 12:41 PM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (302) | Send Message
     
    Thanks ii & Patrick

     

    geopark
    1 Oct 2013, 12:58 PM Reply Like
  • danpm4life
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    Patrick, thanks for the post. I agree. That’s why I was happy to see the CA 1.3 gigawatts of energy storage mandate & Axion interest in the CA market. CA has different programs that support & cost participants, depending on where they are on the compliance scale to their various mandates. It changes the whole financial dynamics of early adopters. I invested in Axion because it seems to have the best technology for the buck, and they should do well once they get their foot in one or more of the 3 main CA utilities for their PowerCube. This is a sample CA energy auction process.

     

    http://bit.ly/15JTw9h

     

    CA, for 2014, has the state’s big three utilities buying up to 200 megawatts of energy storage.

     

    http://bit.ly/16fbsMq

     

    Axion, by its 9/10/13 Press Release, signaled their interest in the CA market.

     

    http://bit.ly/17U9WNR
    1 Oct 2013, 09:37 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1616) | Send Message
     
    geopark,

     

    As I see it, it shares some of the characteristics of the PbC such as a long cycle life at deep depth of discharge, however its charge/discharge profile is much slower than that of the PbC.

     

    The one BIG advantage of Aquion over Axion is that it has the backing of some very big boys out there, including reputable VC firms and billionaire individuals. We once had the backing of a relatively high profile firm in the name of Quercus Trust, but that is no longer the case these days. As sad as it is, I think Aquion is (much?) closer to commercialization than we are as they state that their manufacturing facility is ready for a ramp up in production to meet rising demand.

     

    I appreciate that Axion and Aquion have different niche markets, but for now they seem to have a financial muscle we just don't have...
    2 Oct 2013, 10:13 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    Axion is four years into the testing and validation process with first tier customers. Aquion hasn't even started. They are almost a decade behind, with or without their VC investors.
    2 Oct 2013, 02:05 PM Reply Like
  • Patrick Young
    , contributor
    Comments (1441) | Send Message
     
    Exactly, battery technologies are all snake-oil to the blue-chips of the world. Axion's long track record of rigorous testing will bear fruit one day soon.
    2 Oct 2013, 03:58 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Exploding Fuel Tankers Driving U.S. Army to Solar Power

     

    "The U.S. Army is spending billions of dollars shifting toward solar energy, recycled water and better-insulated tents. The effort isn’t about saving the Earth.

     

    Instead, commanders have found they can save lives through energy conservation. It’s especially true in Afghanistan, where protecting fuel convoys is one of the most dangerous jobs, with one casualty for every 24 missions in some years.
    With renewable energy, “there is no supply chain vulnerability, there are no commodity costs and there’s a lower chance of disruption,” Richard Kidd, the deputy assistant secretary of the Army in charge of energy security, said in an interview. “A fuel tanker can be shot at and blown up. The sun’s rays will still be there.”"

     

    http://bloom.bg/GzIXPh
    1 Oct 2013, 11:54 AM Reply Like
  • Retired Aviator
    , contributor
    Comments (1840) | Send Message
     
    Thanks iindelco. Feeling somewhat vindicated here for my comment the other day that the military is a potentially huge market for AXPW in stationary (or mobile) energy storage, one reason being the dangers of having tons of flammable fuel sitting around all the time. Makes a great big RPG target. I wasn't actually thinking about reducing convoy vulnerability but DoD is, which is good. It makes tremendous sense to utilize solar in the cloudless areas we tend to have operations, given the logistical/safety nightmare that moving and storing massive quantities of fuel entails.
    1 Oct 2013, 01:14 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (733) | Send Message
     
    RA

     

    Don't forget the fire hazard posed by lithium batteries.
    1 Oct 2013, 01:35 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    RA. I'm sure you've seen some of these stats.

     

    U.S. Arrogance Triples Fuel Prices for Troops in Afghanistan

     

    http://bit.ly/18L3JWI
    1 Oct 2013, 01:45 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (733) | Send Message
     
    Sitting out in the Atlantic on my rock.

     

    The reports that constantly are "leaked" relating to the cost of the US waging war in the middle east leave me gobsmacked. Dumfounded, astounded, amazed, incredulous and beyond.

     

    My opinion is of no concern but the cost to the taxpayer in the US is immense! How is this policy supported by the man in the street given all the issues facing the US taxpayer?

     

    Does the man in the street have ANY idea as to what they must pay for this policy to remain in place? Probably not.
    1 Oct 2013, 02:01 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >AlbertinBermuda ... I think you're "probably" right. We, the USA, build fighter aircraft that cost $160,000,000 each and our DOD wants, will get, 2437 of them without very much objection from anyone that thinks the government spends too much money. It is all relative.
    1 Oct 2013, 02:16 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Why worry about the cost. We're not going to pay it back anyway. On to plan F, follar bills.

     

    Dollars? So sorry. We inflated those away. The softening and perforating machine is over there next to the outhouse behind the rusty green locomotive.
    1 Oct 2013, 02:37 PM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (528) | Send Message
     
    I thought I read somewhere that fuel costs $50/gallon delivered to the troops in Afghanistan.
    1 Oct 2013, 03:22 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (733) | Send Message
     
    Going back to my 1952 roots, of course the "military industrial complex" will be paid. They always have.

     

    Of course I should know as they comprise a good part of my pension portfolio. Yours too I suspect.
    1 Oct 2013, 03:27 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    APM, It varies depending on route and whats going on in their logistics network.

     

    http://cbsn.ws/1brqXSg
    1 Oct 2013, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2639) | Send Message
     
    APM - I recall seeing a $600 per gallon number.
    1 Oct 2013, 04:06 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2169) | Send Message
     
    When the bullets fly, I would much rather hide behind a trailer full of PbC batteries then one full of liquid hydrocarbon fuel!
    2 Oct 2013, 03:17 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (733) | Send Message
     
    Or one full of lithium batteries.
    2 Oct 2013, 04:28 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    Since the electrolyte used in lithium-ion batteries accounts for 20% of cell weight and is a typically a flammable hydrocarbon, you may want to think of lithium-ion batteries as hydrocarbons with spark source and an accelerant.
    2 Oct 2013, 04:46 PM Reply Like
  • Retired Aviator
    , contributor
    Comments (1840) | Send Message
     
    silicon,

     

    Certainly. In today's theatre bullets flying at troops is the exception though; the rule is IEDs, suicide bombers, i.e. insurgents "blowing things up", often remotely. Flammable fuel supplies are a ready made and excellent way to amplify their ability to cause explosive mayhem. Solar or other non-ICE/generator power makes a lot of sense IMO for that reason.

     

    The nice thing about military contracts is that there is no market test for a company like Axion that provides a product with unique advantages. Not much in the way of cost/benefit analysis or payback analysis. If they want it, they buy it, period, and likely in good quantities if it serves their purpose well.
    2 Oct 2013, 06:42 PM Reply Like
  • Patrick Young
    , contributor
    Comments (1441) | Send Message
     
    At $50 a gallon, DOD could find cost savings from powering things on hamster wheels.
    3 Oct 2013, 08:24 AM Reply Like
  • Patrick Young
    , contributor
    Comments (1441) | Send Message
     
    I believe hamsters are easy to breed in captivity and have many offspring. They also eat like humans - you can feed them all the vegetable scraps from the kitchen.
    3 Oct 2013, 08:26 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2297) | Send Message
     
    True, but they are not as nutritious as guinea pigs:

     

    http://n.pr/1btAJXt

     

    >>
    But there may be more to gain from eating guinea pig than bizarre foods bragging rights. According to activists, eating guinea pig is good for the environment.

     

    Matt Miller, an Idaho-based science writer with The Nature Conservancy, says rodents and other small livestock represent a low-impact meat alternative to carbon-costly beef. Miller, who is writing a book about the ecological benefits of eating unconventional meats, visited Colombia several years ago. At the time, he says, conservation groups were expressing concern about local ranchers clearing forest to provide pasture for their cattle — activity that was causing erosion and water pollution.

     

    "They were encouraging people to switch from cattle to guinea pigs," Miller says. "Guinea pigs don't require the land that cattle do. They can be kept in backyards, or in your home. They're docile and easy to raise."
    <<

     

    http://bit.ly/1btAJXu
    3 Oct 2013, 10:20 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    SMaturin, Yeah, You have to serve them head intact with a cranberry in their mouth.

     

    I wonder if after time they will adapt to the different tone of voice that occurs each time their buddies are called to dinner and are never seen again. :-O

     

    To Serve Guinea Pig. Go back, It's a cook book!
    3 Oct 2013, 11:06 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2297) | Send Message
     
    I wonder if we could get a federal grant to develop a guinea pig farm, where the little critters run on hamster wheels to generate energy that gets fed back into the grid. Then they get sold as environmentally-conscious alternative meat products at the end of their productive growth cycle.

     

    If you count the cows not eaten for "cow credits" and trade the credits on a federal exchange for carbon credits, it could likely generate a very profitable revenue stream from meat sales, cow credit sales, and grid energy sales.

     

    Let's petition our congressmen for guinea pig farming subsidies!
    3 Oct 2013, 11:30 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    The real question is whether guinea pigs produce more methane per pound of body weight than cattle. So I think you're first step would be to seek a research grant to study and quantify the relative flatulence of guinea pigs vs. other domestic livestock.
    3 Oct 2013, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2297) | Send Message
     
    Is there a department of flatulence studies within the Agriculture Department that awards such grants?

     

    Or do we go directly to the greatest flatulators of all, Congress?
    3 Oct 2013, 11:51 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Well I'd have to laugh at all the possibilities here with the guinea pig opportunities but the fact is that the recommendations you're both suggesting make more sense that the EV mess.

     

    I wonder if Hilary turned 1 k USD into 1 million USD in the guinea pig futures market yet. If so, I hope she kept records this time on how she did it because she could make more than that on a how too book. Or perhaps she'd have too much free time to write if she documented it.
    3 Oct 2013, 11:56 AM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1488) | Send Message
     
    >>>>So I think you're first step would be to seek a research grant to study and quantify the relative flatulence of guinea pigs vs. other domestic livestock.<<<...

     

    lol.... your mind is a work of art JP! :-)
    4 Oct 2013, 12:01 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... I can't believe this slipped by your RSS feed. If anyone is interested, this is the competition on the rails to the Norfolk OTR project. I guess it could operate even better with a battery slug attached but it doesn't appear that NSC isn't looking to new technology prime movers for power.

     

    http://bit.ly/15IMMZc

     

    I've no idea how much this bad boy costs but I'd think just a little bit more than battery power.
    1 Oct 2013, 12:34 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Thanks DRich, I'd not seen it. Yes, It would appear to be complementary to NSC's efforts with batteries.
    1 Oct 2013, 01:17 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    Buy:sell through 12:30:49 1:12.18. VWAP $0.1205.

     

    <*sigh*>

     

    HardToLove
    1 Oct 2013, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • Patrick Young
    , contributor
    Comments (1441) | Send Message
     
    The spread is only .001 and holding steady at 0.12

     

    WHAT DOES IT MEAN!?!?
    1 Oct 2013, 02:53 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    Patrick: you missed a decimal: $0.0001.

     

    It means that the folks trading through ARCA, BTIG, ... that I *think* represent the PIPErs can't enter an offer below the bid, or they would do so.

     

    So they are limited to hitting the bid and dropping offer as low as possible to accomplish their goals.

     

    It also means that another intra-day VWAP will be even lower so the PIPErs get an even better 85% price next round.

     

    HardToLove
    1 Oct 2013, 02:57 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13507) | Send Message
     
    Patrick, this reminds me of some boxing fights I have attended.

     

    Sometimes the fight is a mismatch, and one gets pounded pretty good. After several knockdowns the unfortunate hits the canvas and sprawls flat. Despite the obvious mercy that would be a gift if he just stayed down, some in the crowd are still determined to see him get up and resume getting pounded...

     

    Right now, we are probably better off just staying on the canvas and hoping the count runs out of time in the round and we can try again next time.
    1 Oct 2013, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • Patrick Young
    , contributor
    Comments (1441) | Send Message
     
    Well, they don't get shares below 0.10, right?
    1 Oct 2013, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • Patrick Young
    , contributor
    Comments (1441) | Send Message
     
    It really pays to be a financial entity like these PIPE investors. Talk about the retail investor not getting a fair shake. HFT is peanuts compared to the advantages held by simply being a "big" player.
    1 Oct 2013, 03:41 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    Patrick: IIRC what I read in that long document, it's their choice as to shares or cash?

     

    There's links to some of the stuff in the header in in my instablog too.

     

    HardToLove
    1 Oct 2013, 03:56 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    Patrick: I failed to properly grok what you asked in my first response. There's noting I recall in the docs preventing *them* from getting shares at $0.10, $0.09, ...

     

    It's only if *we* in the market trade @ $0.10 or below, among other possible "equity conditions", that attaches any penalty.

     

    In fact, the next "true up" or payment round will be issuing shares based on a $0.1073 (today's 85% price) or less basis. Figure roughly a 1/2% per day drop (don't forget it's compounding in nature) in the 85% price and you'll be able to get an estimate of what the next true up or payment xxx days away will be priced at.

     

    HardToLove
    1 Oct 2013, 06:02 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    Yeah! We've only got something like 20 or 25 million more punches to endure. Piece 'o cake.
    1 Oct 2013, 03:02 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13507) | Send Message
     
    You always "get it" DR.
    1 Oct 2013, 03:14 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    I long for the good old days when Quercus was selling 15,000 shares a day and we thought they were the bad guys.
    1 Oct 2013, 03:28 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2737) | Send Message
     
    If you assume 10 mil shares per monthly PIPE repymt ($1mil/(.85*$.12) = 10 mil shares), given that there are 5 major repymts remaining (Nov's thru March's), then 10mil * 5 = 50mil new PIPE shares left.
    1 Oct 2013, 03:32 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    MrI: from mu latest calcs, $0.12 will end up be a fondly remembered dream from the past - rather optimistic. It won't take long either.

     

    HardToLove
    1 Oct 2013, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Whoda' thunk it. The contract seemed so fair.
    1 Oct 2013, 04:02 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1616) | Send Message
     
    Thats what I fear HTL. We will be looking at 0.12 as an upper limit for a while.

     

    Needless to say that the next round of financing will be an absolute bloodbath, unless we have fantastic news coming out in the meantime, as opposed to what we have been accustomed to during the last few years.
    1 Oct 2013, 04:33 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >Mr Investor ... I was trying to be cheerful.
    2 Oct 2013, 09:25 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2737) | Send Message
     
    DRich---me too.
    2 Oct 2013, 10:18 AM Reply Like
  • Patrick Young
    , contributor
    Comments (1441) | Send Message
     
    Does anyone have an idea what the cost/kWh of PbC is?
    1 Oct 2013, 03:29 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    15:46:19 298,146 shares in a single trade at $0.12.

     

    HardToLove
    EDIT then another 42.4K $0.12 @ 15:48:52. Somebody was being serviced here today.
    1 Oct 2013, 03:49 PM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (528) | Send Message
     
    Shareholder meeting voting was released. It seemed that a large number of shareholders only chose to vote on certain questions. Maybe JP can explain that it seems most of the "ballots" submitted did not include votes on the nominees for the board of directors.

     

    I'm working on my report but won't have it out today as I originally promised. I will post it tomorrow.
    1 Oct 2013, 05:23 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    The differences all boil down to ordinary matters like auditor approval and authorized capital increases that brokerage firms can vote on if you don't send in your proxy card and extraordinary matters like director election and executive compensation that only count ballots actually cast by stockholders.
    3 Oct 2013, 11:21 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Gives you an idea of what the market is charging for replacement AGM batteries.

     

    Halfords takes a positive lead on start/stop batteries

     

    "Dave Poulter added: “Our research places us anywhere between 20% and 40% cheaper than a main dealer - depending upon the vehicle brand.”

     

    Initially all Halfords stores will stock two AGM (absorbant glass mat) battery variants – like those fitted as original equipment to models including the BMW Mini and 1 Series from 2007 onwards - which are compatible with the vast majority of micro hybrids.

     

    Halfords stop/start batteries are made by Yuasa and priced at £174.98 including fitting for the 096 AGM and £199.98 for the 019 AGM."

     

    http://bit.ly/15JqxlY

     

    1.00 GBP = 1.61970 USD
    1 Oct 2013, 05:31 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Keeping an eye on these guys. They are a disruptive force looking to move into the European market. Part of Metair products.

     

    ROMBAT opens production facility in Bistrita

     

    http://bit.ly/171JArS
    -
    South-African Metair buys battery producer Rombat

     

    http://bit.ly/171JBvQ
    -
    http://bit.ly/19VMS1T
    1 Oct 2013, 05:48 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... As good a manufacturing partner as any other. Put them on the list of contestants hidden behind Door No.2 or Door No. 3
    1 Oct 2013, 05:51 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    DRich, I tend to think about the smaller players in the area being a disruptive force. They are not as incentivised by the status quo because they are trying to change it. And they don't have lithium ion operations they are trying to push.

     

    So it's interesting to me to dream a little about the giant getting a swift kick in the shin. :-P

     

    It reminds me of a little job shop I nurtured when I was a young engineer. They were talented but not part of the preferred supplier list purchasing was pushing me toward. Short version of the story is I gave them their first job which was about 20% of their annual sales, and then the next which was 60% of their annual sales. That was a hard sell and I put my a$$ on the line for the second job. After more effort than I really wanted to expend I ended up with a dynamite supplier for the company that in certain specialties was far better than the traditional suppliers in their target market. They wanted in bad and I gave them an opportunity to work hard and prove it. We won.
    1 Oct 2013, 06:50 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2759) | Send Message
     
    ii,
    Imagine if you didn't champion the little guy back then. I hope that Axion has someone who will push us through with the oems. But I think the length of the process may have dulled some of Axion's momentum and I can easily see purchasing managers making safe (not the right) choices - because who wants to worry about their vendor's solvency.
    2 Oct 2013, 02:17 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Bazooooka, The well groomed easy path is mostly favored and is a big risk for Axion for sure. The characteristics PbC has inherent to the technology better be as good as we think it is. And then it's not a sure thing for equity holders. TG has not proven to be the best finder of equity at reasonable terms.
    2 Oct 2013, 07:43 AM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1488) | Send Message
     
    Volume was close to a million today. It would seem the PIPE's are working through their inventory. Interestingly, the .12c floor held, despite the rather sharp increase in volume.

     

    Not sure what to make of it.... we are neither here nor there, yet...
    1 Oct 2013, 05:51 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13507) | Send Message
     
    I see the $.12 holding as a defensive move by some folks already holding a LOT of shares who really don't want to test what happens in the Penalty Box.

     

    The Gang of .25 is selling to clear the decks for the next influx of millions of shares about to wash over them.

     

    Meanwhile, all the good Axionistas sit patiently in the battery patch waiting for the arrival of the Great Pumpkin, er, "News". Last promise to expire was the "NSC to roll out 999 in September", oops, didn't happen, but then there is the usual codicil issued at a recent conference, that the Great News about the 999 will be slightly delayed until "October".

     

    Since the Great Pumpkin, er, "News" ALWAYS shows up in October, this came as no surprise to me of course.

     

    Linus and I are very patient...

     

    (Hey dude, its getting cold, how about sharing that blanket of yours?)
    1 Oct 2013, 06:31 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    Reported volume was 1.3 million today. We traded more shares in Q3 than we did in Q1 and Q2 combined.
    1 Oct 2013, 06:42 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (853) | Send Message
     
    Need to take a hit on the Hopium Hooka. No "pipes" there only tubes.

     

    Hard to believe with so many possibilities, there is no news (good or bad) yet from any of them.
    Not even a status update from JP on the ePower trucks or if there was any expressed interest at the previous conferences.
    1 Oct 2013, 06:46 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2759) | Send Message
     
    JP,

     

    From a dollars traded perspective how does 2013 compare to 2012 (and further back)? Current volume seems impressive except for my memories of decent volume when it was a 30-50+ cent stock.
    2 Oct 2013, 02:12 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    Bazooooka: A Q&D vol x VWAP 2/6/2012 - 2/5/2013, assuming I didn't goof it, says $26.908MM.

     

    2/6/13 - 10/1/13 says ~$15.143MM.

     

    Sorry for the odd dates - that's just an effect of when I started my tracking.

     

    Projecting that latter figure into February, with no attempt at adjusting for falling price or some such, would give us a full-year figure of ~$22.714MM

     

    HardToLove
    2 Oct 2013, 07:01 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    The trends are not pretty because the dollar value of shares traded has fallen with the market price. Over the last five years, the volume and value data breaks down like this:

     

    2009 – 7,176,200 – $11,692,639
    2010 – 22,016,900 – $15,895,921
    2011 – 77,690,400 – $52,106,261
    2012 – 86,443,500 – $31,290,627
    2013 – 93,933,800 – $18,774,820
    2 Oct 2013, 07:04 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >tripleblack ... October? Really?

     

    I have to ask ... Did you mean This year?
    1 Oct 2013, 06:43 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13507) | Send Message
     
    Yes. This is ALWAYS the year when the Great Pumpkin, er, "News", appears.

     

    Of course, Charlie Brown always thinks he's going to get to kick the football this time, too.
    1 Oct 2013, 07:00 PM Reply Like
  • isthisonebetter
    , contributor
    Comments (325) | Send Message
     
    IIRC, Charlie Brown did eventually kick the football.
    1 Oct 2013, 07:19 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    Isthisonebetter: But the yin and yang remained in balance as the tree consistently ate his kite. It got tangled up in the tree's "pipes" (branches).

     

    HardToLove
    2 Oct 2013, 07:03 AM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (302) | Send Message
     
    Funny HT, thanks,

     

    geopark
    2 Oct 2013, 09:14 AM Reply Like
  • isthisonebetter
    , contributor
    Comments (325) | Send Message
     
    HTL

     

    Time to find a new place to fly our proverbial kite?
    2 Oct 2013, 08:08 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    Isthisonebetter: maybe not so much as a better place to fly, but a better time? I'm thinking after March '14 we'll find much more favorable winds, requiring a much lighter and shorter tail, which should help avoid pesky entanglements.

     

    HardToLove
    2 Oct 2013, 08:25 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (853) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/10leuYg
    NDW Rolls Out Energy Saving Smart Grid Pilot Program

     

    "Davenport explained that within NDW, the Smart Grid Pilot Team initially pilots a technology leveraging existing assets and identifying new opportunities. Independent testing and fleet cyber accreditation ensure a clean solution that can be competitive in the industry for a commercial off-the-shelf acquisition and is part of the pilot process. Once these capabilities have been piloted, the team deploys them throughout the region to validate the scalability and interoperability and collect data to support a return on investment and savings cost.

     

    These projects have already seen success throughout the region, said Davenport, with more expected."

     

    ***
    Remember...
    "Axion Power Chosen for Battery Mini Power Cube in Zero Energy Building in Washington DC Naval Yard"
    1 Oct 2013, 07:08 PM Reply Like
  • danpm4life
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    greentongue, Although small, Axion is listed under the:

     

    U.S. Navy photo by MC2 Kiona Miller

     

    "Shane Trexler, Energy Engineer with SilTek Incorporated, completes the installation of the Washington Navy Yards Visitor’s Center Axion Power International Inc. Energy Hub used to monitor energy usage. The project helped the Visitor’s Center become a NetZero building, meaning it produces more energy annually than it consumes. Naval District Washington is utilizing innovative technology to improve energy efficiency with the implementation of its Smart Grid Pilot Program"

     

    However, you cannot see Axion's name on any of the equipment in the photo, even when enlarged. But what the hay, we'll take free publicity however small the print.
    1 Oct 2013, 09:53 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (853) | Send Message
     
    Doesn't matter if SilTek Incorporated is using the PbC batteries and getting the credit. It matters that they need to buy more for expanding sales.
    Axion inside, not on the outside. You don't buy an electric tool because of the battery brand it uses, you buy it because the tool does what you need done.
    2 Oct 2013, 07:36 AM Reply Like
  • danpm4life
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    In an earlier post someone mentioned the military could be a large market for Axion. The Government & Military is holding a Smart Grids and Microgrids conference. There is no evidence of Axion @ the conference. It looks likely there will be some discussion of the Navy’s Smart Grid Pilot. One of the exhibitors is S & C.

     

    http://bit.ly/1bt4ww5

     

    S & C, an exhibitor, appears to provide products similar to what Axion provided for the Navy’s Smart Grid Pilot. Does anyone know if Axion has a lock on subsequent Navy/Other Military sales for smart grid/energy storage projects? Or should someone from Axion be attending this conference, & follow up with old contacts & develop new contacts to continue to support the government/military market? Was there any discussion of this market @ the shareholders meeting? The S & C web site below provides some good competitor information.

     

    http://bit.ly/1bt4vs7
    1 Oct 2013, 11:53 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5001) | Send Message
     
    From what I read with the installations for AEP, S&C has turn key solutions.
    This is why ZBB said in the cc that they were focusing on turn key solutions to be more competitive.

     

    A lock on other military sales? IMO, no they do not. The Navy building was sort of a small proof of concept deal. We can only hope the numbers are good and the system is cheaper and performs better than competitors. I think I remember where the military has installed different types of tech to validate the concept and amass data.
    2 Oct 2013, 05:40 AM Reply Like
  • Carnardie
    , contributor
    Comments (259) | Send Message
     
    TRADER: I Drove A Tesla, And I'll Never Short The Stock Again

     

    From RiskReversal.Com: http://read.bi/19V8AmR
    2 Oct 2013, 05:16 AM Reply Like
  • Nicu Mihalache
    , contributor
    Comments (1081) | Send Message
     
    So we have definite proof that there is no shortage of emotional traders. The hype cycle is developing in all its splendor before our eyes.

     

    I'm not saying shorting now it's a no-brainer, fighting a bubble is nowhere near an obvious or easy task.
    2 Oct 2013, 06:23 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1616) | Send Message
     
    The thing is if you are lucky enough to short at the top, you can make a huge huge fortune ! :)
    2 Oct 2013, 09:20 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5001) | Send Message
     
    Rare downgrade for Tesla Motors
    Tesla Motors (TSLA) is downgraded by Robert Baird to Neutral on a valuation call with the automaker's technology leadership fully priced in.
    The investment firm sets a $187 price target on shares as it also cites "execution risk" as a factor.
    TSLA -2.1% to $188.99
    2 Oct 2013, 06:58 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7996) | Send Message
     
    Try to knock the price down at the end of the Q, grab some shares, and wait for the Q3 report where Tesla beats all estimates and drives the price back up.
    2 Oct 2013, 08:50 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    My instablog updated through 9/30 and chart through 10/1.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    Tonight will start a new blog, chopped down as usual to keep load times faster.

     

    Realizing that this stuff was designed with "normal" markets in mind I intend to continue collecting data but will not be doing extensive commentary until such time as it looks like the data may be useful again.

     

    BTW, "buys" today, 10/1 was 10.7% IIRC, certainly in the "bottom 10". This trend has been long-developing now and I don't see it changing near-term.

     

    Another note: NITE has been positioning at $0.12x5K on the bid quite regularly. If this continues I'll be tempted to think this is the support from the "financiers" we've been hoping for. Being one of the largest and best capitalized market-makers before they were taken over, it seems a logical place that the "financiers" might have put their $ for this.

     

    I'm not counting on it yet though - these are ruthless players here and certainly may have schemes that I've never heard or dreamed of.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    2 Oct 2013, 08:36 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5001) | Send Message
     
    HTL, I agree, so far .12 has been fairly firm with one little overshoot. (I reserve the caveat that anything could happen,)

     

    My devious mind and vivid imagination has to think someone is propping the price up for now. Otherwise, it would have drifted lower on certain days. These are very very sharp PIPER's.

     

    I can't help but wonder who is buying? but the true test will come later as more shares have to be absorbed.
    2 Oct 2013, 09:03 AM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (988) | Send Message
     
    On the date of the last cc (8-15-13), the pps dropped to .1260 at one point, reflecting the floor at that time of .125. In over six weeks time, the floor now seems to only have dropped to.12, a time when there's been no announcements of significant orders, nor a peep from NS.

     

    I'm assuming we'll get at least something in the next six weeks, which makes me think we "might" just start trending a little higher during this time. And I continue to think there's a good chance we'll start seeing some kind of turnaround before the end of the year. --- From one Axionista with a cloudy crystal ball to others.... :)
    2 Oct 2013, 10:08 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2737) | Send Message
     
    HTL, IIRC, NITE also vacuumed up a lot of shares at other, higher price pts, e.g., 15 and 13.5 cents, since the PIPE came out. Those prices eventually caved. Unfortunately, my guess is no better than anyone else's re whether this time it holds or not. I would love to know what's really going on, though.
    2 Oct 2013, 10:23 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    MrI: Yes, NITE has been one of the active participants. Being such a prominent presence, Axion aside, I suspect lots of retail folks' orders also get routed through them. So there is that that would keep them active at all levels.

     

    One of the scenarios we've envisioned re the PIPErs is that one or more may be accumulating for various reasons. It goes against what JP has suggested may be the game plan though. Anyway, since we saw a jump in standing short position volume, to ~1.8MM IIRC(?), and then that got roughly halved, maybe that supports that someone is accumulating and hedged themselves until their short position became so profitable they just had to start taking profits.

     

    At the same time, if they were a PIPEr, they would be getting a steady flow of new shares at lower cost, bringing their long position closer and closer to current market if they held just a small portion of the new lower-cost shares.

     

    I mention this possible scenario as just a *potential* suggestion that one or more is accumulating a small position.

     

    It would position them to both take fast profits now and as things progressed and make big profits when a big event caused upside run-up.

     

    Risk would be absolutely minimal, so this could look attractive.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    2 Oct 2013, 10:35 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Well, the possibility of some meddling by the Federal government has declined. ;-D
    -
    Edit: Hey HTL, Was that a buy?
    2 Oct 2013, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: "Edit: Hey HTL, Was that a buy?"

     

    "that" being?

     

    HardToLove
    2 Oct 2013, 10:50 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    ""that" being?"

     

    The whooping 1.4k shares. Maybe we are in for a fails day for not meeting dollar volume in trading?
    2 Oct 2013, 11:03 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: OH! Yes they were buys.

     

    We'd have to check with John, but I don't think we're in the measurement period? Or maybe we're in the tail of one now? Anyway, we need three, IIRC, in a measuring period to have a fail. May not be enough time left to get three?

     

    HardToLove
    2 Oct 2013, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1803) | Send Message
     
    Nice 250k bid at 12c.
    2 Oct 2013, 12:59 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    Ranma: Actually it was three bids of 155K, 100K and 5.9K at 12:02.

     

    I like this better because it means some different folks, likely, on ATDF, ETRF and NITE all had an interest.

     

    ETRF has had a big bid, although a lower bid, for quite some time. ATDF has, off and on, had big bids over the last few weeks, generally not in top spot though.

     

    HardToLove
    2 Oct 2013, 01:12 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Well so much for my thought about not seeing enough volume today. That's good.
    2 Oct 2013, 01:27 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: Yes, another $17 (actually $16.7325 :-)) ) and we make $40K. For a long time we were around $5K.

     

    HardToLove
    2 Oct 2013, 01:37 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    I know we fret about the intermittent available power from renewable energy installations and that is a problem. There are other things that drive the market and could influence the renewable/storage industry. Here in Texas, as we run out of electrical power from aging plants, no new investment & our largest generator teetering on BK, thoughts are finally turning to the idea that deregulation may not be such a great idea. This, being Texas, it will probably take at least the 20 years it took to think deregulation was a great idea.

     

    Here, where we pay some of the highest electric rates in the USA, discussions have begun on whether an "energy only" rate & generation model is a good one. That is a utility only gets paid according to the energy they momentarily produce. Make as much money as possible whenever the opportunity presents itself. Big generators (& wind/solar providers) are finding it hard to plan future needs with this model they formerly wanted. In the bad old days when the electric grid & generation was regulated the model was a "capacity" market where needs were planned and rates set to provide a steady return on capital with reserve capacity built in. It was a slower way to make a buck for utilities .... bad, bad, bad ... but was predictable. Only recently has predictable come back into vogue.

     

    This is a good thing for us storage investors because the thinking & opportunity might catch on that capacity is worth paying for. Our solution is cheaper if only it paid.

     

    http://reut.rs/1g3yABb

     

    If such a thing can be discussed in Texas there is a good chance it might really catch on out there in the Real World.
    2 Oct 2013, 10:31 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Good luck to you down there. You can bet your needs and security are not #1.

     

    "Power companies in Texas include TXU Energy and Luminant, both units of Energy Future Holdings, which is owned by Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co LLP ..."
    2 Oct 2013, 11:16 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    About says it all.

     

    Assault and GM’s $30,000 Battery

     

    http://bit.ly/1g3Hfnd
    2 Oct 2013, 11:24 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    Here Now: The Worlds First Portable, Self-Contained EV Charging Station

     

    http://bit.ly/1f0gAZM

     

    So much for that relationship as well.

     

    http://bit.ly/1f0gAZN
    2 Oct 2013, 01:58 PM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (302) | Send Message
     
    Anyone have a thought about ~300K shares trading in a one hour period today? Started @12:55.

     

    geopark
    2 Oct 2013, 02:10 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    geopark: that sort of pattern has been the common result when we start the day with looooong periods of no trading. When it gets late enough all the folks that want to get *something* done that day break loose.

     

    I caused one of those "floods" a couple years back by just taking the ask after about three hours of no trading with a minuscule bid/ask spread.

     

    I do have a concern - buy:sell 1:11.87 - certain to be an EOD result in the "bottom 5" since I began tracking. Only 11.4K shares presenting on the bid at $0.12 is another concern now.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    2 Oct 2013, 03:09 PM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (302) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for that HT, and for all your work on Axion.

     

    geopark
    2 Oct 2013, 04:05 PM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (714) | Send Message
     
    CONSPIRACY ALERT ! CONSPIRACY ALERT ! ! !

     

    It seems blistering hot outside (actually only 87F) and we haven't had rain in a few weeks. Raising garden beds in this stuff is difficult digging into the baked clay. Came in for a break and re-read concentrators 268-270. That's sometimes a challenging idea for me because often I end up reading into things those things that do not exist.

     

    Nevertheless, after somehow capturing the tone of the following folks: Albert, danpm, Stephan, DRich, iindelco, and greentongue, I came away with the notion that the "blessed" battery technologies come from either California or Boston. Maybe goofy for me to arrive at that conclusion, but that's my impression of the moment. Boston, I understand.... MIT, etc. And California too .... Stanford, CalT, etc. Still, it seems odd, yes. Am I even correct? Am I making stuff up????

     

    California is an early adopter and for the most part they initiate stuff for the country that turns out well. Most things, in fact. (except of course, skateboards, roller-blades, and addressing a gentleman as "Dude"). Plus they are closest to China, and those folks are desperately searching for power and water for their people. Boston makes sense, because MIT folks are pretty weird. Throw in Harvard and Yale and . . . . well, you get the idea. It's hodge-podge soup in Bean Town.

     

    Anyway, it occurs to me that possibly we are 18 months behind everyone else simply because of where we are. It took John Deere and Caterpillar both a long time to dominate their industry because of where they were located. Norfolk Southern is the gold standard, so we're becoming known all over the country through railroad fraternal connections, but it's understandable that with so many initiatives re: power alternatives coming from California it makes sense they would favor companies in their own states, yes?

     

    DRich? froggey? iindelco? danpm? You guys who really are aware of other alternatives?? Am I seeing this right? Don't know that it really matters in the long run. That impression did jump on my back though.

     

    Hmmmmm.
    2 Oct 2013, 02:13 PM Reply Like
  • danpm4life
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    Valleywood, I earlier wrote that CA has different programs that support & cost participants, depending on where they are on the compliance scale to their various mandates. It changes the whole financial dynamics of early adopters, specially those of green technology. Dr. Barnhart of Stanford wrote: “We focus on macroenergetics at societal scale for future energy systems that will mitigate climate change and facilitate a transition from carbon intensive to low carbon energy resources.” I have not seen/read/heard any restrictions on CA companies as to where they must buy products to support the various mandates. They have tried & implemented a sales tax on products sold to consumers who buy from out of state companies. Think Amazon. I do believe that CA has the highest overall taxes collected in the nation.

     

    One of CA programs that facilitate the carbon transition is an auction system that financially induces companies to invest in clean/green technology to reduce their carbon footprint. For companies that beat, or are below, their carbon target, receive surplus carbon credits, which they can rollover for subsequent years, or sell at the CA auction program. Companies that are unable to reduce their carbon footprint to target, can either pay the CA carbon penalty tax, or are allowed to buy another companies surplus carbon credits at the CA auction. I believe CA was the 1st & is the only state to have this program & as such, is open to changes on what goes into the carbon credit calculation. This is why getting Axion data into the Dr. Barnhart Stanford follow up study so important.

     

    CA makes money by collecting carbon penalty taxes & by running the auction & collecting the auction fees. Other winners are early adopters of clean/green technology. Tesla, this blogs favorite?? CA auto manufacturing company, turned its operating loss into a profit by selling their carbon credits, not to CA, but the CA companies who find it cheaper to buy carbon credits than pay the CA carbon penalty tax. Don’t hold me to the numbers, but I remember reading an article for the last Ca auction, the anticipated value of the carbon credit was $.30-$.40 & it ended north of $1.00.

     

    While the Stanford’s/Dr. Barnhart’s macroenergetics study is “interesting science” to other states, it can have a real economic influence, income or cost, to CA companies who can use it to support an adjustment to the CA carbon credit equation & get ahead of the carbon credit curve so they can be sellers. My take is that Axion, will hopefully be selling lots of PowerCubes to CA utility companies because of the CA energy storage mandate. Because of Axion’s game changing PbC technology, it has the opportunity to influence the carbon credit equation for CA companies who buy their products. As such, Axion should be rolling out the red carpet, to Dr. Barnhart, who can facilitate that effort.
    3 Oct 2013, 08:49 AM Reply Like
  • Patrick Young
    , contributor
    Comments (1441) | Send Message
     
    What is lots?
    3 Oct 2013, 08:57 AM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (227) | Send Message
     
    >danpm4life,
    Thanks for this clarification and comment regarding the importance of AXION becoming part of a discussion and verification beyond we Axionista's and the Concentrators at Seeking Alpha.

     

    California is a critical market that is monitored closely by the nation and world for technologies, beneficial and disastrous.
    3 Oct 2013, 11:07 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >Valleywood ... I think you are correct in thinking that "New Age" technologies are concentrated in Mass. & Calf. because this is where the high technologies academia reside. There are a few other first tier locations like Rice, Johns Hopkins, U. of Chicago but they aren't top of anyones' mind. America is filled with good first & second tier engineering, just not state of the arts research. Who would ever think of something new coming out of Georgia Tech? Improvements maybe ... not new.

     

    FYI: Yale is no where close (in an Eastern sense of distances) to Boston. It is in New Haven, Conn.
    2 Oct 2013, 02:27 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30170) | Send Message
     
    Don't forget Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh, which is the birthplace of Aquion.
    2 Oct 2013, 02:41 PM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (714) | Send Message
     
    Almost forgot. I seem to recall driving between NH & Boston in under two hours. 'Round here that's "close". Even up there it's close enuff to pack each other's stadiums. Many pranks at those games. Many pranks.

     

    One of the joys of Ivy League play. Genuine student athletes. Gorgeous play. Just a little slow though. Five years or so ago Columbia had an offensive lineman who weighed 168 #. Lineman. Of course they didn't win much. :>)
    2 Oct 2013, 02:50 PM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (714) | Send Message
     
    Older son went to CM for his MBA. I refuse to give those guys any credit. Do you know the crap I'd have to deal with if I gave Mellon recognition as top flight? :>)
    2 Oct 2013, 02:56 PM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (714) | Send Message
     
    I have to wonder: do we have many stockholders from the northeast?

     

    We have a Californian I know of but she's an educator and she's a ..... she. So that makes for a superior intellect anyway and she belongs here. But I don't recall northeast or California ownership.

     

    And you can't count Amouna. He's much too far east and prolly is eating fish & chips as we speak. Plus he seems to have an advantage at being #1 on new concentrators. First for breakfast, first for lunch, and prolly watches first-run movies. First.

     

    I'd love to know if we're concentrated in the mid-atlantic, across the south and up into the heartland. Love to know.
    2 Oct 2013, 02:39 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    ;-( Rochester, NY. The highest taxed state in the union.
    2 Oct 2013, 02:45 PM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (714) | Send Message
     
    Virginia. State of Presidents. And the best cherry pie in the country. Lousy iced tea though. :>)

     

    Rochester. Isn't that Kodak country?
    2 Oct 2013, 02:53 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >Valleywood ... Rochester is actually a vibrant research & technology center. Something like Austin, Texas or the Research Triangle in one of those Carolina type places. Backwaters that no one in the general population would ever think about.
    2 Oct 2013, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    "or the Research Triangle in one of those Carolina type places. Backwaters that no one in the general population would ever think about. "

     

    Umm...that would be North Carolina, or to be more specific, the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill area there of. :-)
    2 Oct 2013, 03:32 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9460) | Send Message
     
    VW, Son just finished a Co-op job working on MEMs for Ortho Clinical Diagnostics Div. JNJ. One of the sub-contractors he was working with, a middle aged ex Kodak research scientist, had a lab buried behind a discount clothing store with about XY million USD of equipment he got out of Kodak for a song. He said he almost fainted when he walked into the place! It was like toy land for wealthy nerds and this guy is having a blast.
    2 Oct 2013, 04:16 PM Reply Like
  • jim_mcnabb
    , contributor
    Comments (2) | Send Message
     
    Missouri here.
    2 Oct 2013, 05:04 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17876) | Send Message
     
    Welcome Jim! Missouri huh! Guess Axion will have to show you! I hope it does so to your immense benefit! :-))

     

    HardToLove
    2 Oct 2013, 05:12 PM Reply Like