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  • Axion Power Concentrator 77: Beginning March 15, 2012, Bangwhiz's Article, Selling The PbC Battery - It's Not Easy Being Green! 199 comments
    Mar 15, 2012 4:37 AM | about stocks: AXPW

    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!

    A gem of an article by Bangwhiz:

    Selling The PbC Battery - It's Not Easy Being Green!

    There are two important facts about the Axion PbC battery stockholders need to understand. First, it is not a commodity product like bananas or standard lead acid batteries. Its different. Secondly, being different engineers have to design new systems versus whatever they've done before if they are to benefit from its unique performance characteristics. That means change, and like the Eagles sang in their song Sad Cafe, "But things in this life change very slowly, if they ever change at all."

    People and organizations resist change unless they are either forced by some outside pressure, or the benefits to them are so great it is sufficient motivation alone. In the case of the PbC battery two organizations, Norfolk Southern and BMW, were drawn to the PbC battery because they had a problem the PbC might solve for them. Conventional commodity lead acid batteries were not up to the demands of stop start automobiles or battery powered electric locomotives. They were embracing and seeking change.

    Inventors have been waving magic beans in front of engineers eyes forever and often those magic beans lose their magic very quickly when engineers attempt to put them to practical use. Consequently, engineers are inherently skeptical of anything new until it has proven itself truly useful and reliable.

    Because the PbC battery has different electrical and performance characteristics engineers at a fork lift manufacturer, auto company, railroad, or any other company will need to design and build new electrical and or mechanical subsystems specifically engineered for the PbC battery before they can benefit from the PbC 's magic beans.

    BMW and Norfolk Southern possessed a strong enough interest in the PbC to commit to the time and money required to conduct preliminary test and evaluation programs followed by conceptual system designs, then building actual prototype systems made specifically for the PbC. That has been followed by more test and evaluation of the prototype systems and perhaps modifications to the prototypes leading to a final design. This activity would be coupled with trade off studies of any final PbC system design versus all the other possible solutions including detailed cost benefit number crunching studies. The engineers design and develop, the bean counters rule.

    Because of any non-disclosure agreements Axion has signed we do not know the status of most of the ongoing potential customer development programs for the PbC battery. Big organizations are big because they haven't made any big mistakes. It is an inherent slow process demanding patience from Axion and its stockholders. No one is more anxious to sell the the PbC battery and produce millions of PbC electrodes for the lead acid industry than Axion's management. It is just going to take the time it takes and not a minute less.

    Axion does have one product not subject to so much trial and tribulation - the PowerCube ranging in size from the mini-cube to 20MWs. You could almost write a design spec and purchase order on the back of a napkin. 10 MWs standby power for 30 minutes. Some have suggested Axion create some sample PowerCubes and give them to prestigious customers to try free of charge. You just "plug" them in. Not hardly. You need to run the power into and out of the PowerCube and that means site specific power distribution systems, building permits and construction. The installation may need to be fixed inside a building with all the design and construction that entails versus sitting outside in a trailer.

    I'm not an engineer so I am not going to try and describe what all a customer has to do to utilize a PowerCube, but it is going to be a lot more than "just plugging it in." Axion Power Concentrator commentator, DRich, who is an engineer, said, "I don't know if this covers it, but even in grid applications, 'samples' aren't all that practical. Even though the batteries are the same, it is easy to assume that is where 'sameness' ends. Each business will have a different power use profile and thus the inverters/transformers will be different almost every time. The BMS and/or the software may need to be tailored to each power profile. There is considerable cost in engineering associated with those 'samples'."

    Anyone who wants to buy whatever size PowerCube they want for all its benefits will need the services of an electrical engineering firm, or an in-house electrical engineering staff, to integrate the PowerCube into their facility. Then there are all the software control issues that will need to be sorted out for the specific customer's power usage profile. It isn't rocket science, but it is involved and takes time and money to accomplish. There is no free lunch. For my money I would rather Axion Power Director of Marketing, Vani Dantam, just sell someone a PowerCube than probably spend the same amount of time and money trying to convince a prospect to take one for free.

    An Axion Power sales rep can't just waltz into a E-Bike or forklift or UPS manufacturer and say, "We've got a special on PbC's today, 3 for the price of 2." Think about how many people in a prospective customer have to agree that building anything using the PbC - a product they've never seen or used before, with nothing sitting around they can just drop it into and then turn it on - is worth their time, money and effort?

    I have a lot of major account sales experience. I've been Vice President of Sales for a hardware design, development and prototype engineering company. I've been Manager of Business Development for a nuclear engineering firm. Most of the time when you go through the door of a large company representing a new product or service it is just like pushing in the side of a sponge, the minute you leave everything pops back out just like it was before. Nothing has changed. If you are lucky maybe whomever you talked to talks to their boss, who then talks to his boss, etc etc.

    When they want you they call you. Until then, you are just whistling Dixie. Then after they call you it isn't a done deal. Everybody up the line has to confirm the decision. The numbers have to work, the details have to mesh, the timing has to be right - and on top of that they have to like and respect you and your organization. They have to be true believers.

    So when you are screaming for Axion Power CEO, Thomas Granville, to just sell or give away Powercubes or PbC's, you need to understand the complexity of doing so, and the time required to achieve an actual sale. Engineers are methodical, cautious professionals who have their careers at risk every time they draw a line or circle. They are not going to endorse anything until they are certain of the cost and benefits.

    About a year ago I made a bold statement that I would like to get on the phone and sell PbC's on straight commission. I said I might starve for a while but I would eventually find somebody who would buy some PbC's. John Petersen said "I wish it were so simple." He was right and I was over reaching a bit. I just didn't realize the complexity involved in selling the PbC because it is different from existing commodity lead acid batteries.

    I fully recognize the sales and marketing issues now, and if you haven't thought about it before perhaps this article will lead you to further contemplation on the subject. I still wouldn't mind selling the PbC, but I would pack a lot bigger back pack full of food before I picked up the phone. I would also plan on it taking one or more years of work before I might get a sale. Its just a tough business being green if you are a frog, or selling a PbC battery nobody has ever used before.

    ####
    Hearty gratitude to Bangwhiz on behalf of the Axion Power Concentrator series!

    ####

    During the past seven months the Axion Power Concentrators have organically grown into a vast trove of information all things Axion Power related, all things battery related, all things Energy Storage Sector related.

    Between now and 15 years from now, the global expenditure on energy in every way energy is created, delivered, conserved and used will be in the trillions of dollars.

    Derived from well over 12,000 Axion Power Concentrator comments comes to us a compendium archive created by APC commentator Bangwhiz. In short here is what it is, and does:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one; including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    It also contains a "New to Axion" section for people who are new to Axion and want a good starting point for their own due diligence. The site is updated daily as new links are posted to current comment threads. Links are posted by topic and can also be found using the "Search This Site" tab.

    The Comment Search Feature on the homepage is great for finding a comment you want to read again that would normally be lost in all the thousands of past comments. Simply search using a good key word or phrase, or any Google search term modifier, such as AND etc.

    New Feature: You can now search all past comments or just the past 3 months.

    Complimenting the Axion Power Concentrator Web Site is the Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, "A repository of information about Axion Power International, Inc. and PbC® battery technology" created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Want to ask, or have someone ask, Axion Power leadership a question during the forthcoming late March 2012 conference call? The following link led by Bangwhiz is where you can write your question, maybe have it discussed and expanded upon before the conference call.

    http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/667879-bangwhiz/279411-axion-power-2011-q4-march-conference-call-questions-list?source=kizur

    ####

    This is a troll free zone. All disruptive comments that violate Seeking Alpha's Terms of Use Agreement will be removed and permanently recorded in a separate Instablog.

    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!

    Enjoy!

    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

Back To Axion Power Host's Instablog HomePage »

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Comments (200)
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  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (502) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » Last comment in prior concentrator from 481086
    ==========
    door number three: "artfulness" ;) Notice he says "on track to match" not "matched" and "no reports of diminished function" not "no diminished function" ... there's lies, damn lies, and squishy weasel word claims...
    ==========
    15 Mar 2012, 04:46 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    I'll have a new article these issues and more within a day or so.
    15 Mar 2012, 06:42 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3442) | Send Message
     
    My comments sound more disparaging than I really meant. I know it's always far easier to be a critic than be the man in the arena, and I respect that he was choosing his words as prudently as he could. It's gotta be tough though, trying to sell a product into an application for which it's just not fully suited....
    15 Mar 2012, 07:09 AM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    Someone once told me that the truth lies in the cash flow (Follow the Cash Flow). If you follow the OEM's cash flow with regard to start/stop, they are investing cash in New Castle because they are not comfortable with what their options are now. IMHO
    15 Mar 2012, 07:11 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    Thanks. One month without article.
    Have a good day all AXIONISTAS.
    15 Mar 2012, 07:45 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    I share this article:
    http://bit.ly/znvbL6

     

    It seems important:

     

    -.The downside is the increased number of starts over a Stop-Start vehicle’s life—potentially more than 100 per day—which means a standard car battery may last less than 18 months, the company notes.
    -....the company claims, and the energy necessary to support frequent start cycles in all weather and traffic conditions. It includes the control electronics to manage Stop-Start functions, balance the voltage across each supercapacitor cell, and limit the battery current during each restart.
    -.CAP-XX identifies the battery as having failed when voltage falls below 10 volts because, based on input from a leading European automaker, batteries at this state of charge can no longer operate vehicle electrical systems reliably.
    -.Comparative tests of a battery-only system, also at room temperature, saw the battery fail after 44,000 cycles.
    15 Mar 2012, 06:58 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5575) | Send Message
     
    I read the article, and the comments .... most people do not have a clue on how a battery in S/S functions. One thinks with the supercapicitors that a regular $40 lead acid battery will work.

     

    Maybe someone here needs to educate them.
    15 Mar 2012, 07:15 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    It's a fascinating article Carlos, but most fascinating for what it doesn't talk about. The CAP-XX system can handle the 300 Amp-second engine re-start load after an engine off event but it can't do anything for the 3,000 Amp-second hotel load during the engine off event.

     

    It's a great solution for cars that don't have lights, fans or accessories.

     

    Everybody else needs a PbC.
    15 Mar 2012, 09:39 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2305) | Send Message
     
    Yes, JP, that jumped out at me as well:

     

    >>With the supercapacitor module installed, the vehicle battery only needs to support continuous power functions such as air conditioning, navigation and lights, enabling longer battery life or smaller batteries. The battery also charges the supercapacitors for their first start, but once driving, the alternator keeps them charged.<<

     

    This will not reduce the need for a larger battery to support AC, lights, etc., while the engine is stopped, and that large hotel load will shorten the life of conventional batteries almost as much as the starting load discharge does.

     

    At $60, the supercap may be a useful retrofit for all those vehicles with AGM batteries that fail in the first six months of stop-start usage. But the technology may not compete over the longer term with the more durable PbC design, especially when regulators and class action lawyers get involved after consumers get pissed off about the early failure of SS with conventional batteries.
    15 Mar 2012, 11:28 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    Mr John: That's right.
    They need of AXION/PbC and AXION only needs the AGM arrangement.
    We just need to "Patience my dear AXIONISTAS"
    15 Mar 2012, 12:15 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    I think the CAP-XX is a great idea and do not see it competing with the PbC (I see it more as a companion). The CAP-XX's sole responsibility would be to start the vehicle. The PbC would handle all of the hotel loads. I think the two would make a great pair...
    16 Mar 2012, 10:23 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    The CAP-XX module will try to compete with Maxwell's BoostCap module and provide a little extra juice for starting. The article CGV linked has a follow on link to a CAP-XX slide presentation with more detail. – http://bit.ly/xTkpcF

     

    The system CAP-XX is promoting is six cells that deliver 150 Farads at 14 volts. Maxwell's BoostCap systems, in comparison, uses two cells that are rated at 2,400 Farads and 2.7 volts.

     

    According to the Axion-GM grant application that Brishwain got through his FOIA request, the PbC has 13,000 Farads of capacitance.

     

    Maxwell has nothing to offer the PbC and neither does CAP-XX.
    16 Mar 2012, 10:47 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2305) | Send Message
     
    Tim, I agree that it is a great idea.

     

    Details of the system are here: http://bit.ly/xTkpcF

     

    However, whether it will be a "companion" to the PbC or a competitor is debatable. The PbC already contains a supercapacitor system in its negative electrode assemblies, which is intended to power the starter in the start-stop scenario, so adding the Capp-XX system onto a PbC would be redundant. The PbC carbon electrode's rapid charge acceptance would have to compete with the Cap-XX for soaking up electrons between the start-stop cycles, and the electronic control systems would need to understand which part of the circuit to draw its 300A*s current from when the starter motor needs to run. The control circuit designed for the Cap-XX probably would not tap into the PbC's capacitance potential and would need to be redesigned to work with the PbC.

     

    It seems like too much cost and complexity to me to run them side by side in the same vehicle. Ultimately, manufacturers will need to decide, likely based on cost and longevity, whether the PbC is more cost effective than the Cap-XX with an AGM battery. Thus they are more competitive than synergistic, in my view.
    16 Mar 2012, 11:08 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    "CAP-XX introduces supercap modules to support batteries in stop-start applications" - the title of the Green Car Congress article.

     

    I have always assumed the in a 2 battery system for the micro-hybrid that there would be one standard LA battery and one (or more) AGM (hopefully the PbC) batteries.

     

    So when the CAP-XX folks say they are targeting the starting function (LA battery) with their product then I am all for it. I do not see how this has anything to do with the PbC.

     

    What am I missing here?
    16 Mar 2012, 11:08 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    The two battery architecture uses a small flooded battery for the sole purpose of carrying a 300 Amp second starter load after each engine off event. It's easy to keep that battery at top of charge and recover the minuscule discharge between engine off events so adding a supercapacitor would be a waste.

     

    Ninety-one percent of the energy use in micro-hybrids goes to hotel loads, which is where the dynamic charge acceptance of the PbC is critical.
    16 Mar 2012, 11:16 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    The last thing the PbC needs is boost from a supercapacitor. It would add nothing but cost and complexity.

     

    CAP-XX looks to be a startup a company with a plan, but no apparent industry contact. They're still at the stage where they're doing retrofit demonstrations in an attempt to attract an automaker's attention. If they succeed in doing so, they'll have to endure the same two to three year testing process that Axion's been engaged in since the summer of 2009.

     

    Maxwell is a potential competitor. CAP-XX wants to compete with Maxwell along with IOXUS, NESCAP and others. I wish them the best of luck but think they'll be irrelevant until the second half of the decade even if everything goes perfectly for them.
    16 Mar 2012, 11:29 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    JP & SMaturin, Thank you for helping me fill in the blanks. The auto industry has much to decide (as do I)...
    16 Mar 2012, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2360) | Send Message
     
    John, I believe most in the auto world doesn't understand that the PbC is NOT just a "better LA battery". Well, everyone but the hard core engineers who know what a Farad and an electrolytic capacitor is.

     

    How do they get educated? Axion sales people MUST understand what they are selling! We need some serious technical articles that show the PbC as a "system with two parts"; electrochemical energy storage and capacitive energy storage. The technical customer MUST understand that he is getting both in one package, at a comparatively bargain price.

     

    I would dearly love to see some form of "hard core technical demo" package that included a small PbC, a bit of switching power supply capability and a microcomputer running a demonstration program. Load resistor and fan. Build cost might be $2k or so, although there will be a $50-100k front end engineering cost. Pick the potential user carefully and sell him the package at below cost.

     

    I "know" what the PbC is, but I still don't have an "engineering feel" for it. Let the serious customer's engineering group "touch and feel" the device. It's worked for many system sales people for many years.
    16 Mar 2012, 01:39 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    It would not surprise me at all to see any number of sensible selling tools developed over the next few months. My guess is that Mr. Dantam has taken that bull by the horns and made it clear that they need to educate customers as part of the sales process. My guess is that the new introductory video on the PowerCube is just the barest of beginnings.

     

    Back in the day we were very careful about what we said and how we said it because we didn't want to find ourselves in a position where we were making claims that we couldn't back with iron-clad science and consistently repeatable results.

     

    We were also painfully aware that industrial engineering often gives rise to compromise that makes it dangerous to claim prototype performance of XYZ knowing that future engineering compromises might yield product performance of 0.87*XYZ (or perhaps 0.5*XYZ).

     

    I'm very encouraged to see Axion talking more openly about what the PbC does and how it performs. That fact alone tells me that the industrial engineering has reached a point where further compromise is unlikely, and that's a very nice point to reach.
    16 Mar 2012, 01:55 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (990) | Send Message
     
    SB...

     

    I concur with your "...world (investors) doesn't understand the PbC..."

     

    In my experience, many companies need a "translator".
    In my world, someone who can negotiate...translate.... between users and the technical staff...understand the needs and wants from the users...understand what can be delivered technically and how to implement effectively, efficiently and successfully.

     

    TG and his executive management, not just marketing team, have to acknowledge and understand what the product(s) can deliver and to whom, and how to best "translate"..."educate...
    A huge potential opportunity, challenge and task.

     

    Many times, client executive management need to understand what can be delivered... for example, energy storage...why...to keep their operations functioning 24/7 transparent to the clients' customers.
    Know your audience...big picture for executive management...technical picture for technical management and staff.
    Cost would be a critical factor to both audiences.

     

    A key audience today...addressing the pps concerns raised earlier...educating investors.

     

    The video is a good start, but still short of the full story to tell.
    16 Mar 2012, 11:08 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (990) | Send Message
     
    SB...case in point...
    "NStar says it won’t pay for lost business or wages"
    http://bo.st/yF3WTQ

     

    "...transformer fire that cut power to 21,000 residential and business customers...Meanwhile, NStar said it planned to temporarily cut power to 8,000 customers beginning at 3 a.m. Saturday for further repair work...“We’ll probably never know why this happened,’’ May (NSTAR) said...Although May (NSTAR) insisted the failure was rare and could not be foreseen, other specialists in the utility industry said such breakdowns are not unusual."

     

    AXPW target audience...NStart?...b... in some cases?
    I defer to the grid experts here.
    Problem...back up power...solution...AXPW.
    How best to sell...ready made markets out there...IMHO.
    17 Mar 2012, 12:30 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    I think that I may have finally figured out why the logic in this thread does not make sense to me and it is important that it does. Here is one of the statements that doesn’t make sense to me.

     

    “Maxwell has nothing to offer the PbC and neither does CAP-XX.”

     

    My thought was CAP-XX was in the starter position and the PbC was responsible the hotel loads (independant of one another). Are we thinking the starter and house batteries are always combined or at least combined during the engine off state?

     

    Dual battery systems have been around for ages in the Marine industry because of the “lost at sea” condition you might get if your battery is dead and you can’t start your engine. It is a real simple, yet effective, system that isolates/dedicates the starter battery (the starter battery is integrated into the starting system). The house bank provides power for the rest of the boat

     

    It works like this:

     

    The alternator is connected to the house battery buss. The two battery banks are tied together but the positive connection has a solenoid type switch that opens and closes depending on the state on the engine. It’s open when the engine is off and closed when the engine is on. The most basic of switches used in this position will sense the voltage. If the voltage is above a set point (13-14v) the switch opens, otherwise it closes.

     

    So, in an engine off state the banks are isolated and serve their assigned loads and cannot see one another. When the engine starts and the alternator outputs power, the switch is combined and the banks share the power during the charging state. Some of the more advanced isolation switches will open when the current falls below a set level leaving the alternator for focus on charging the house bank. The CAP-X and PbC would be competing during the charging state but we are talking seconds and the rest of the cycle belongs to the PbC. Also, while in the charging state the alternator provides power to the engine, cabin and hotel loads as well and should be sized accordingly.

     

    This is my understanding of a dual bank system as I discovered when I designed the one for our truck which has worked perfectly for almost 3 years (I just wish that I had known more about different battery chemistries back then).

     

    I don’t care about being right or wrong here because I learn either way. I just care about understanding this correctly. If the dual bank SS systems are normally combined then this thread makes sense. However, if it is normally isolated then it does not. Thanks for helping me understand this a little better...
    18 Mar 2012, 05:14 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    The Maxwell system does not store enough energy to start the engine without assistance from the battery. All it does is prevent excessive voltage sag during cranking intervals so that screens stay lit and don't fade. As near as I can tell, the CAP-XX system doesn't pack enough power either.

     

    The Maxwell system uses two cells that are each rated at 1,200 Farads and 2.7 volts.

     

    The CAP-XX system is rated at 150 Farads in a 14 volt configuration.

     

    The carbon electrodes in the PbC deliver 13,000 Farads in a 14 volt device.

     

    Using a small flooded battery to handle the 300 amp-second engine starter loads and nothing else is easy, costs less than a supercapacitor solution and requires no special electronics to make the battery and the supercapacitor work well together.

     

    Matching a PbC with a small flooded battery makes sense. Matching it with a supercapacitor does not.
    18 Mar 2012, 05:37 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2113) | Send Message
     
    The unspoken truth is that the PbC can do both jobs on its own without the need for a "starter battery". The Auto manufacturers just don't trust it yet. Down the road I bet the starter battery simply disappears.
    18 Mar 2012, 07:58 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2360) | Send Message
     
    Futurist typed: The unspoken truth is that the PbC can do both jobs on its own without the need for a "starter battery".

     

    Exactly right.
    18 Mar 2012, 08:07 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    I think you're probably right on that count and the dual battery systems are simply a belt and suspenders approach, but if it helps sell the PbC then it works for me.
    19 Mar 2012, 01:41 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    So, all this time when we have been talking about the dual battery system, lead acid starting battery, AGM/PbC house battery, hotels loads and the like... I have been thinking the Marine, RV application while everyone else was thinking dual batteries as in two batteries connected in parallel because one wasn’t enough. That is just too funny (or maybe not, I am sure I tested the patience of some commenter’s)...

     

    It sure answers a lot of questions and removes a lot of logical conflicts. But it introduces something that I didn't think possible - connecting two different battery types. I am pretty excited about the idea that pairing a LA battery with the PbC might be a design win. Who else would pair themselves with a LA battery? I would sure like to see some test results with the cycling of the pair just mentioned. I wonder what the voltage curve would look like.

     

    Another thing that got me back in the game (I had my doubts) with the PbC and micro-hybrid was the LC Super Hybrid. Although the model on display was 12v the final version will have a voltage range between 12-48v. This demonstrates your “belt and suspenders” concept because it appears that they really want to switch to a higher voltage and wider voltage range (12-48 instead of 11-14) but can't just yet. This is where the PbC will jump out in front. It reduces the voltage curve concerns and the PbC behaves well in a string configuration.

     

    I got an email back from the CAP-XX folks and the unit will start the vehicle a couple times but they said that leakage is greater than a LA battery. The unit will only last 1.5 weeks before it drops to 7 volts and will not start the vehicle. I really see this solution at the entry level SS applications (or as someone said - retrofit) and will go away when all the cars operate at a higher voltage and have a single belt driver starter/alternator.

     

    Thanks for your patience...
    19 Mar 2012, 07:09 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3442) | Send Message
     
    Tim, if you look at Axion's whitepaper, I believe the simple two-battery system they diagram there in figure 14 on page 7 is more like what you initially described:

     

    http://bit.ly/GzvBfK
    19 Mar 2012, 07:20 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    86, that's it but I think they are getting away from the diode based isolators. I think the dual battery system will vanish when the single generator/starters move down to the entry level SS system. IMO, the 12v system is not long for this world...
    20 Mar 2012, 09:55 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    From IINDelco/Yahoo Finance

     

    Very interesting to read:
    http://bit.ly/yjYSXq
    15 Mar 2012, 07:32 AM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    thanks for posting this CG, will take me some time to get through it.
    15 Mar 2012, 07:46 AM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (3529) | Send Message
     
    An oldie but goodie seems to be be from circa 2002.

     

    http://bit.ly/zO2ynO
    15 Mar 2012, 11:32 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5575) | Send Message
     
    AXPW lists new You Tube Video must see
    http://bit.ly/AiQ1xM
    15 Mar 2012, 09:42 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    That's a good start! Let's hope that down the road the get the usual testimonials from PJM/Veridity, the Navy, etc.

     

    And then some real-world data and cost savings, ...

     

    I know, we need patience. A step at a time!

     

    Thanks for the link!

     

    HardToLove
    15 Mar 2012, 09:56 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3112) | Send Message
     
    "seismic-rated". Helloooooo, Juh-pan.
    15 Mar 2012, 10:53 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4235) | Send Message
     
    :-) Looks like the SG&A burn rate has increased a bit more than the new Senior VP's compensation.
    15 Mar 2012, 11:09 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    Since SG&A totaled $3.2 million for the first nine months of 2011 and they just tucked $9 million of new cash into the bank, I think they can afford to break a few eggs to make a tasty omelet.
    15 Mar 2012, 11:41 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4235) | Send Message
     
    :-) All other things constant, Dantam's salary alone would push SG&A to $3.5 million. A serious business development and marketing working capital budget would increase SG&A further by a multiple of his salary. Shouldn't we be expecting SG&A for 2012 in the $4 million plus range?
    17 Mar 2012, 03:20 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    SG&A was $3.2 million for the nine months ended September 30th, so I'm expecting something in the $4.3 million range for 2011 and more like $5 million for 2012. In my experience it's darned hard to maintain a public company for less than about $4 million a year in SG&A.

     

    The SEC reports don't disclose enough data to permit an accurate allocation of share based compensation expense between R&D and SG&A, but my guess would be that the bulk ends up in SG&A. For the nine months, that figure was $351,509.
    17 Mar 2012, 03:46 PM Reply Like
  • Mac325
    , contributor
    Comments (21) | Send Message
     
    Axion posted a new Power Cube video on their youtube channel this morning:

     

    http://bit.ly/z85s0P
    15 Mar 2012, 10:06 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    OMG, deliberate PR – a sure sign of the apocolypse.
    15 Mar 2012, 10:17 AM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2250) | Send Message
     
    JP> Looks like Axion has gotten out of patient buzzard mode and decided to go kill something!
    15 Mar 2012, 10:38 AM Reply Like
  • f-kru
    , contributor
    Comments (263) | Send Message
     
    It is about time. I'm in patience hell for 3 years now.
    http://bit.ly/wrPODu
    15 Mar 2012, 11:53 AM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (287) | Send Message
     
    I was thinking this might have been coming down the pipeline ever since the silent video was posted showing some of the inner workings of the Power Cube. Thank you for sharing!
    15 Mar 2012, 01:11 PM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (561) | Send Message
     
    Looking for nuance; the video emphasized PowerCube complementary to solar and wind power, not backup power or power shifting for example. More interesting was the big emphasis on safety near the end. Sounds like they must be seeing lots of questions in that regard.
    15 Mar 2012, 03:58 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    Any time you're dealing with 1/4 megawatt of electricity safety is a major concern. The more important aspects actually run to lower capital cost and 99% recyclability, as compared to 0% for lithium-ion.
    15 Mar 2012, 04:03 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2360) | Send Message
     
    John, given the capacitive like characteristics of the PbC, I suspect power is closer to 1 or 2 megawatts under abnormal load conditions. Makes a big arc welder look like a firefly. Just the IR radiation from that sort of arc could ignite flammable materials many feet distant.

     

    I think only the Navy electric boat guys have any real history with those sorts of power levels in a battery. Maybe an old diesel-electric boat Chief electrician would be a good consultant :-)
    17 Mar 2012, 02:22 AM Reply Like
  • Ricknplano
    , contributor
    Comments (324) | Send Message
     
    Interesting announcement. These things usually inflate the potential (those grant funds are competitive) and sure to take years to commercialization. Still, need to keep such things on the radar.

     

    http://bit.ly/z3Tp74
    15 Mar 2012, 10:27 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1853) | Send Message
     
    The corporation was started in 2011. We all know how long things take to come to a commercial product.
    15 Mar 2012, 11:10 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2305) | Send Message
     
    Not only is it brand new as a corporation, but they are touting graphene technology as a cost-lowering solution:

     

    >> This novel "GEN3" lithium-ion battery will combine Argonne's silicon-graphene battery anode process with other advanced battery materials into the lowest lifecycle cost per watt lithium-ion battery ideally suited for energy storage and EV applications.... While much research today is focused on ways to improve silicon stability, ANL tests indicate this newly patented process that embeds nano-silicon into graphene through a novel chemical vapor deposition (CVD) process will dramatically improve silicon stability by protecting the silicon material as it charges and discharges, extending battery cycle life by 3X.<<

     

    As we have discussed on the APC's in recent days, graphene technology is likely to remain cost-prohibitive over the next decade or so, as manufacturing techniques must still be developed (such as large scale CVD production of graphene products).

     

    While this may be no immediate competitor to the PbC market, it is an exciting example of where nanotech is headed in the next couple of decades. I imagine this having a big impact in longer life laptop and cordless tool batteries down the road, as well as possibly in HEV applications as the costs come down, since the weight advantage of lithium over lead is critical in these applications. Whether it will be economically competitive with the PowerCube remains to be seen.
    15 Mar 2012, 11:52 AM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    a nice start to trading, volume wise.
    15 Mar 2012, 11:00 AM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4100) | Send Message
     
    Two notes:

     

    The Google+1 square is back - punch that Google+1 to support folks finding this concentrator and its Google rank.

     

    If Axion needs a better voice for the voice overs on its promos, I personally know the voice behind the Total Pillow ads: http://bit.ly/yjCR31
    15 Mar 2012, 11:50 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2305) | Send Message
     
    Nice bit of PR today, via JP:

     

    http://bit.ly/xNKdDB

     

    >>Investors with low risk tolerance who want meaningful portfolio exposure to an automotive mega-trend that's evolved quietly in the background while hucksters hype $100,000 toys for the 1% should take a serious look at JCI, a diversified dividend paying industry leader that's likely to be a dominant force in the micro-hybrid market for years to come. Those with a higher risk tolerance may want to take a good long look at Exide and consider what the market price might be with $150 million of incremental gross profit from AGM battery sales. The lottery ticket in the bunch is Axion, which currently trades at an R&D market capitalization in the $32 million range. Since Axion just tucked $8.5 million away in the bank from an offering at $0.35 per share, the price isn't likely to fall over the next six to nine months. If one or more of its first tier testing relationships matures into a customer relationship, the possibilities are endless.<<
    15 Mar 2012, 03:14 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    You guys may have read many of those thoughts in these pages, but the reality is that I haven't written anything for the last six weeks because events in the sector were plentiful, but not meaty enough to justify an article. I also needed a break from dealing with my trolls.

     

    Today enough diverse data points came together to justify the time and effort of creating an article for the main pages. It also satisfies a promise I made to the ALABC at the Geneva Motor Show.

     

    I may be overly sensitive on the issue, but I write to further my own career and am nobody's PR tool. I made a point of talking to JCI before writing the piece, but I haven't spoken to anybody from Axion for months.
    15 Mar 2012, 03:30 PM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    On a completely separate note: The NCAA tournament starts today, I know there were already playoffs to make the 64 team bracket, was wondering if there are any other Jayhawks out there?
    15 Mar 2012, 05:06 PM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (561) | Send Message
     
    I think the 4%/10% quote from someone at BMW could be very significant or else it's just plain odd. JP - do you think BMW could actually be using the PbC in the Efficient Dynamics vehicles? Wouldn't that be at odds with what you reported seeing under the hood at the recent show?

     

    Thanks very much for a terrific article! You obviously didn't get rusty during this lull.
    15 Mar 2012, 05:08 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    I got into the trunk of the BMW 116d EfficientDynamics Edition but the only thing I could tell about the battery was that it was an AGM type device with BMW part labels and no other brand markings on top. Since neither vehicle has gone into production yet there's just no way of knowing until somebody says something.
    15 Mar 2012, 05:17 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    I seem to remember somebody making a comment about an announcement for another battery company where the announcement for the battery didn't come out until right before production started ... wouldn't that be nice ...
    16 Mar 2012, 06:16 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    Maxwell's announcement of the Continental - Peugeot design win for the 2011 model year and beyond didn't hit the news wire till October 2010 when the cars were in production. These kinds of announcements are carefully managed by automakers to meet their product launch timing.

     

    "Come test drive the new Tesla Gelding with the whizzo lithium-ion battery pack and driver selectable tuned exhaust soundtracks."
    17 Mar 2012, 02:16 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2151) | Send Message
     
    I could go for a sound track of a supercharged 383 with dual quad carbs, headers and blown out glass packs, but you can keep the rest of the car.
    17 Mar 2012, 03:12 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/FOVqqN
    17 Mar 2012, 03:19 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2151) | Send Message
     
    JP,
    Thanks for the link. I am more of oval and drag racing guy, but have always appreciated Grand Prix driving. That driver has happy feet!!! You just can't beat the sound of American Muscle from the 1960s and 70s in my book.
    17 Mar 2012, 03:45 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    I drove an NSX from 92 to 95 and still miss the performance and the incredible throaty roar of its tuned exhaust. My fondest hope is that the new NSX will offer a comparable feel in a hybrid because I'd love to do it again.

     

    In a perfect world I'll have two cars in the garage. A BMW 640i Gran Coupe – http://aol.it/zVobgB – with a PbC optimized micro-hybrid that will make my Axion stock valuable enough to pay for an NSX without disrupting my retirement planning – http://bit.ly/zxyklZ.
    17 Mar 2012, 05:02 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    I liked a lot of muscle-car sounds.

     

    My favorite was my own.

     

    '68 Olds 442, on which I installed Jardines with 2.5" collectors and custom-bent 2.5" exhaust pipe back to Turbo-thrush mufflers (no glass, just a few simple baffles).

     

    Idling, a very sweet sound. Blip the throttle and I thought it would bust the windows in the garage.

     

    At cruise, not really loud, just a sweet powerful purr. If you want to stand on it, make sure there's no cops within a mile or so - they'll hear you coming.

     

    The best thing was Olds knew how to build a suspension. I installed Koni's, wider rims and one-size (G70?) up steel-belted tires (best stuff they had back then).

     

    Heading up around Loveland pass, ate a Chevy hot-rodder's lunch in one of the passing zones, on the outside of a right-hand sweeper, foot to the floor, several thousand-foot drop to my left, 90 MPH, four-wheel drift (first time I ever did an extended one) with a tad of counter-steer.

     

    I was stoked!

     

    The hilarious part was that as I looked over as I passed him, we both had the same in-car scenario: wife yammering in our ears how we were all going to be killed - SLOW DOWN.

     

    Young, foolish and lucky.

     

    HardToLove
    17 Mar 2012, 06:05 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2151) | Send Message
     
    Those 442s were hot alright.
    17 Mar 2012, 06:25 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    It's a wonder the Class of 69 survived, but we did, and so did many of our contemporaries.
    17 Mar 2012, 07:22 AM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    My neighbor had a Chevy SS396 with headers and high lift cam. That was a nice sound.
    17 Mar 2012, 03:37 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    With the 4-bolt mains, could safely crank 375 HP, IIRC, from the factory. Hot engine.

     

    HardToLove
    17 Mar 2012, 03:45 PM Reply Like
  • eggwis
    , contributor
    Comments (769) | Send Message
     
    The 442s were/are HOT! Did you have the W-30 ram air or Hurst pkg HTL?

     

    I'm a ragtop guy myself, so my fav is the '69 the convertible. Less impressive performance than the '68s, but still plenty to make you look back and wonder why your still alive. :-) The trade for the tuned down perforance though is *sunshine* & *open air*! ... "Where are we going?" .... "Who cares?!?!" :-) Only 25 made in '69; 2 with the Hurst pkg.

     

    Dad had one. The anxiety built inside me for y-e-a-r-s waiting 'til I could drive it. All it took was once. Been a ragtop guy ever since. I asked him once why he ever got rid it. "Because you needed to go to school." OUCH! He should have kept the car! LOL!
    19 Mar 2012, 06:30 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    Egg, I had neither package. And I've always liked hardtops.

     

    It was my first "near new" car when I first moved to Denver CO and was making $495/mo (not as bad as it sounds in 1970 - my wife cried at the check-out line when two bags of groceries, including a carton of cigs for each of us, went over $30 after we lived there about 6 months or so. That would last the two of us over a week, IIRC).

     

    I had the Turbo-400 transmission, which came with the engine down 10 HP at 350. But that tranny and torque converter made up for it easily.

     

    That was the first automatic transmission I absolutely loved. When I sold the car in the early 80s sometime (like a dummy), I had replaced the $8 vacuum-module on it sometime before 1975. No other service ever.

     

    It was near time for an engine rebuild though - gas mileage was worsening - probably a little blow-by going on.

     

    HardToLove
    19 Mar 2012, 07:06 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2435) | Send Message
     
    Exide puff piece: http://bit.ly/yiuS89

     

    "Exide Launches Advanced-Technology Battery Geared Toward Longer Life
    March 15, 2012
    |
    By aftermarketNews staff"
    15 Mar 2012, 09:38 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    Launching production from a newly constructed AGM battery manufacturing plant is big news for Exide. They may be engaging in a little puffing when it comes to the wonders of AGM batteries with carbon additives, but the core news is important
    15 Mar 2012, 11:08 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Folks

     

    Check out the contact ino on the Axion web page. Significant differences. Looks like they are gearing up to look like a real company!!!

     

    map
    16 Mar 2012, 10:30 AM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4100) | Send Message
     
    I'm confused...

     

    Does looking like a real company mean...
    a) when Pamela Lee got her implants taken out
    or
    b) when she got them put back in

     

    Seriously... website improvement is a normal part of business for any company these days. I prefer navigating a more user-friendly website and dealing with a helpful investor relations department, but some of the biggest frauds have great websites and great investor relations groups. Ask Madoff's investors.

     

    Technical advancements, production process, and business deals are the things worth getting excited about with Axion... and then hopefully profits and share price will follow :-)

     

    [didn't mean to pick on you MAP and don't mean to offend; just a frisky morning for me on 3 1/2 hours sleep...]
    16 Mar 2012, 10:50 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    I didn't notice any differences.
    16 Mar 2012, 11:03 AM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    JP

     

    The contact site had all that info on it before??? I thought they added contacts and transfer agents, I also tried to see if i could get someone to comment on any new investor releases coming. No one nibbled.
    16 Mar 2012, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    If I struggle at "spot at least six differences between the two pictures", imagine my dilemma at trying to do the same thing with no reference picture.
    16 Mar 2012, 02:35 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    (AXPW): I suspect Quercus is in this A.M. But it's early yet. Symptoms developing though.

     

    HardToLove
    16 Mar 2012, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    I'm wondering if they wouldn't be in later in the day if they are going for the 10% figure. Would allow them to gauge how much they could sell. Just my speculation.
    16 Mar 2012, 11:36 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    Yes, but if they've got someone dealing for them that knows the patterns, they know there's a decent chance prices drop later in the day.

     

    So a small-volume early feed in combined with watching how bids and prices respond might be part of a plan to get some average price better than the lows of the day.

     

    I should note too that the prices the trades have been going off at were trending lower and some of the blocks were larger than we normally see this early in the day with lowering prices. So that makes me think that a new seller, not just the usual small retailer that gets spooked is on the field.

     

    Buy:sell is nasty ATM too.

     

    Of course, it's a SWAG and MHO,
    HardToLove
    16 Mar 2012, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    The last time Quercus was selling there seemed to be a pattern of after-hours sales to cover shorts that the market makers dribbled out over the course of the day. As long as they don't vary from their established practice of selling shares equal to 10% of daily volume it shouldn't make a difference. Tight exits are only a problem when two fat guys are trying to leave at the same time.
    16 Mar 2012, 11:51 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5575) | Send Message
     
    I think you are correct...we know they are back, just depends on how they want to play for higher prices. I do think that Quercus is at a point that they prefer NOT to sell anymore below .35 (or even .25 like they had to last year end)..
    Summary, I agree with JLP now, I don't think they will harm the mkt. over 2-3 cents at most....I would think they refrain from selling into a falling mkt. and try to get a stable .37-40 +. IMO as usual
    16 Mar 2012, 11:53 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1898) | Send Message
     
    Retail investors tired of staring at a stagnant stock while the rest of the world makes money...for now.
    16 Mar 2012, 12:01 PM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    Volume has picked up and a solid return to .40 - not by MM lures. Nice, even only if fleetingly.
    ###
    I'm seeing that we are approaching the golden cross. Need to do some research on how this may impact share price.
    16 Mar 2012, 03:01 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    Think March 2011, but with no big holders to crush the rally.
    16 Mar 2012, 03:13 PM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    I'm just considering if now is a good time to purchase. Maybe time to get back onto the pitch after catching a breather and having my wounds attended to.
    16 Mar 2012, 03:20 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    JP: 16:00:41, AH 15K @ $0.381.

     

    Haven't seen an AH trade for a while, so I think you may be right!

     

    HardToLove
    16 Mar 2012, 04:06 PM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    and the sale appeared right on cue.
    16 Mar 2012, 04:19 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    Yep. JP nailed it I think! If my record keeping is right, last AH was 2/9, 25,499 @ $0.43 at 16:09:23.

     

    Hm, I think that was the beginning-date of sale on the last filing? I'm too lazy to look, but sure sounds familiar.

     

    HardToLove
    16 Mar 2012, 04:23 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1245) | Send Message
     
    nice call JP
    16 Mar 2012, 05:39 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    It wasn't so much a call as an observation of past behavior and an assumption that in the absence of changed facts behavior was unlikely to change. The last thing Quercus wants to do is hurt this market. They paid $2.10 for the shares they're selling right now and I'm firmly convinced they wouldn't be selling at all if they didn't have to.

     

    Last year was ugly because there were a couple big sellers who were willing to fight for the advantage on every trade. Now that they're out of the way and we no longer have two sumo wrestlers trying to leave through a narrow doorway at the same time, I think future Quercus sales will be an insignificant market factor.
    16 Mar 2012, 05:46 PM Reply Like
  • Mercy Jimenez
    , contributor
    Comments (2383) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Since you are the resident historian -- when you have a moment I think it would be helpful to new or potential AXPW investors to hear your 2-sentence summary of why Quercus may be selling. I realize you have posted this before, but we may be taking for granted that new APH readers understand your statement "they wouldn't be selling at all if they didn't have to."

     

    Many thanks in advance,
    mj
    16 Mar 2012, 08:39 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    In 2007 and 2008, Quercus invested about a half billion dollars in a portfolio of 40 to 50 alternative energy companies including Axion. Quercus is the family trust for David Gelbaum, a math whiz who made his fortune as one of the first quants. The plan was that Quercus would provide the first round funding and when more money was needed, Mr. Gelbaum would bring in other investors to share the load. It was basically one very wealthy guy executing a VC business plan with his own money.

     

    The terms Quercus cut with Axion were very gentle. Over a period of six months it invested $18 million to buy 8.6 million shares of common stock and 10 million warrants that were exercisable at a price of $2.60 per share. – http://1.usa.gov/vG70me – If you allocate the entire cash purchase price to the stock, Quercus paid $2.10 per share.

     

    The 2008 crash was a catastrophe for Quercus because a lot of the people Mr. Gelbaum was counting on to step in as second and third round investors simply disappeared. That left Quercus in a position where it had 40 to 50 hungry small companies to feed and inadequate cash resources for the job. Over the last year, Quercus been selling it's stronger stocks to provide enough liquidity to keep the weaker companies afloat. It's selling behavior is always gentle and there have only been a few times when it sold more than 10% of trading volume in a single day, but it has been a persistent source of pressure.

     

    Quercus started selling last March when it had 8.6 million shares. It currently has 2.5 million shares remaining.
    17 Mar 2012, 02:40 AM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1245) | Send Message
     
    i think instead of "stronger stocks", stronger businesses should be used. i wouldn't call axpw a strong stock, although its a well funded business.

     

    that quibble is just to avoid confusion.
    17 Mar 2012, 02:24 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    Tragic: I don't believe it is a "quibble", personally.

     

    I think it's import to recognize a broken stock vs. a broken company in making investment decisions. A company may be on a good path while the equity pps gets hammered by influences beyond that, some maybe affecting the company's outlook while others affect only pps outlook for the short, medium or long term.

     

    I guess some folks confuse pps behavior with company prospects.

     

    Being able to recognize the difference can lead to better decisions.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    17 Mar 2012, 02:52 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1898) | Send Message
     
    I have often said (perhaps, to myself) that if I did not like the company so damn much I would tell the stock to go to hell.
    17 Mar 2012, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    When I refer to strong stocks I'm speaking from the perspective of liquidity. For several years Axion traded at much higher prices, but only traded a couple thousand shares a day. A lower price with a couple hundred thousand shares of daily trading offers far better liquidity.
    17 Mar 2012, 03:06 PM Reply Like
  • eggwis
    , contributor
    Comments (769) | Send Message
     
    "Yep. JP nailed it..." ~ are you surprised? :-)
    19 Mar 2012, 07:00 PM Reply Like
  • eggwis
    , contributor
    Comments (769) | Send Message
     
    jly,

     

    Who attended to your wounds? I have a few that could use some TLC. Not AXPW wounds so much. Mine are of the JAG variety; significantly deeper and more painful! LOL!
    19 Mar 2012, 07:05 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1245) | Send Message
     
    thanks for the clarification
    21 Mar 2012, 01:59 AM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Jon

     

    Anytime i see a change to a research and development company i just feel they are making changes for a reason. But thanks for your thoughtful analysis, and education...

     

    I learned a lot from your insight....Oh, and if you are feeling frisky get some sleep....Once you start comparing Axion to Madoff i turned you off. Sorry , i am feeling frisky as well.. Funny , i had not noticed any changes to Axion web page in quite a while. I just think it might be a good sign, but what do i know...
    16 Mar 2012, 11:04 AM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4100) | Send Message
     
    No worries ace.
    16 Mar 2012, 11:07 AM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    Does anyone know what is the significance of the "Like" box at the bottom of each message. I tried to like my own message and received a popup saying I couldn't vote for myself. Should I be using this feature? Can a member of the concentrator benefit if I "like" their messages? Sorry if I missed this topic if discussed previously.
    16 Mar 2012, 01:24 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1898) | Send Message
     
    I hit "like" when a comment makes me laugh or when I read a good comment that doesn't have any likes, so I feel bad for them and hit the "like".

     

    (I am only half-joking)
    16 Mar 2012, 01:29 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    I don't think the like box does much beyond highlighting messages that other readers thought important. SA has tried any number of things over the years to help readers identify their better commenters and contributors, but they haven't found a system that works yet.
    16 Mar 2012, 01:32 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    I hit it for the act of constructive participation, be it humor, facts, good (or even not so good sometimes) questions, useful or entertaining links, ...

     

    My purpose is to encourage participation regardless of SA's business purpose, which I couldn't care less about, for several reasons.

     

    HardToLove
    16 Mar 2012, 01:33 PM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    So as I have only one "like" on my above comment, does that mean that no one respects me and that I have to become a troll? ;)
    16 Mar 2012, 03:07 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1898) | Send Message
     
    See...now I don't want you to feel like a troll so I "liked" both this comment and the previous, although I shouldn't have told because now you only have one other "liker" which is most likely HTL...sorry. :-)
    16 Mar 2012, 03:13 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1245) | Send Message
     
    i generally only like comments i find particularly useful or funny, but i also know my favorite authors like any non-disruptive comment on their articles to encourage participation. HT Love's technique makes sense. i know i am more likely to contribute when i feel someone is listening.
    16 Mar 2012, 03:51 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    Whew! Thank goodness you have 12 now - I thought your face was beginning to get a little green around the edges! A la "Shrek".

     

    :-))

     

    HardToLove
    16 Mar 2012, 05:46 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (3529) | Send Message
     
    It is a way to flag the high quality contributions. Some investors scan for it as a means of efficient reading.
    16 Mar 2012, 10:49 PM Reply Like
  • eggwis
    , contributor
    Comments (769) | Send Message
     
    See jly, you're not a troll! You have 19 "likes"! Relax and "like" life! ;-) I'm pretty sure that I have never had 19 "likes" on any comment, or probably ore than 8 or 9 for that matter. ;-)

     

    Besides, you don't need the to be "liked" by the other Axionistas in order to not be a troll. rest assured that if you were viewed as a troll, the "Troll Patrol", (a.k.a. APH) would have *kicked* your can out of here long ago.

     

    **EDIT**
    ...and look at that. For my informative comment, I have *zero* likes.
    19 Mar 2012, 08:14 PM Reply Like
  • eggwis
    , contributor
    Comments (769) | Send Message
     
    zook,

     

    Do you mean they visually scan for that or is there a means to do a search based on "likes"?
    19 Mar 2012, 08:17 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10560) | Send Message
     
    JP: Even though I'm no longer able to thumbs up your excellent Geneva article, I did give you a five star rating. What that does, I don't know, either.

     

    Over on Yahoo! Finance, they have the next CC to be held on the 26th. I haven't seen anything listed in Axion's press releases, or received anything via email.
    16 Mar 2012, 01:51 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    The last possible day is the 29th because the 10-K is due by then. The 26th strikes me as unlikely because Mondays and Fridays are suboptimal for news or anything else that involves the public. The best times are Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday pre-market.
    16 Mar 2012, 03:19 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    i actually called Axion today and the women who answered had no clue when it is being held...Kinda scary if you ask me. I mean only a handful of employees and no clue???
    16 Mar 2012, 05:26 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    If she was a front-desk receptionist, wouldn't surprise me at all.

     

    HardToLove
    16 Mar 2012, 05:29 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    Axion spent several years developing very tight information control procedures to keep employees from talking out of school. It's a lesson most companies take a long time to learn but Axion has it down pat. I would have been shocked if anybody told you anything over the phone. I've seen people fired at much larger companies for over-responding to phone inquiries. It's good to know that the internal control systems are in place and functioning properly.
    16 Mar 2012, 05:50 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    No, an executive!!!! That is what concerned me..

     

    map
    16 Mar 2012, 06:45 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    JP

     

    A date of a cc?? Come on now...
    16 Mar 2012, 06:46 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (990) | Send Message
     
    MAP...

     

    Keep in mind they are a small company.
    Some "executive"s do not always understand the big picture, nor understand (nor want to understand) nuances outside their expertise...especially if they are on the technical side or non financial side.
    At the risk of dating myself, I remember the president of (what was then) a good size community bank, $900M, being frustrated with certain officers.
    I suggested to him that they may have been good officers when the bank was $25M, but that does not make them good officers in a much larger bank.
    We had to make some hard but necessary changes.
    I submit AXPW may just be beginning a sea change in management.
    16 Mar 2012, 09:41 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    MAG

     

    You might be right, and that is a valid response. I thank you for that.

     

    map
    16 Mar 2012, 09:46 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (3529) | Send Message
     
    MAP,

     

    This is par for the course for a company that makes less then 10M in revenues. The last thing we need is money spent on IR and office management. That all comes after we grow a good bit more; imo
    16 Mar 2012, 10:52 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (3529) | Send Message
     
    You'd be surprised how often the month/week is settled upon but the exact day has yet to be determined. We'll all hear about it at the same time as it should be. I usually don't expect much more notice than a few days or the weekend before. These aren't real worries.
    16 Mar 2012, 10:55 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    "i actually called Axion today and the women who answered had no clue when it is being held..."

     

    My guess, and its only a guess, is that it hasn't been set yet...
    16 Mar 2012, 11:30 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    If you let employees make their own decisions about whether a fact is material or not you'll invariably have lots of employees making the wrong decisions. I always counsel clients that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING should be discussed by an employee that hasn't been properly disclosed to the markets. The penalties for information leaks are simply too onerous. I know it seems silly and petty, but it's one of the few areas where I'm an iron-fisted asshole.
    17 Mar 2012, 02:49 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3112) | Send Message
     
    FYI,

     

    I visited Axion's New Castle facilities earlier this week. Couldn't get an appointment, so just drove around and looked. Didn't see the mountain of battery casings Mayascribe mentioned last year. Maybe they're hidden, or inside, or in what looks almost like a courtyard, but I couldn't see them.

     

    Fair number of cars around the older location, much fewer around the newer location.

     

    The PowerCube is still there at the older facility, as are the two solar trees at the newer one.
    16 Mar 2012, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    I think that bodes well: battery cases wouldn't be moved just for fun - they been used for something.

     

    Thanks for the report!
    HardToLove
    16 Mar 2012, 03:46 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2435) | Send Message
     
    Couldn't get an appointment with whom?

     

    How far in advance did you ask?

     

    Did they offer an explanation you found acceptable?
    16 Mar 2012, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3112) | Send Message
     
    No one in particular, just knew I'd be in the area. I didn't push hard at all, as they don't know me from Adam. I called Rudy Barrio first, about 8-10 days in advance. He was a nice enough guy, but said the Co. usually meets investors at shareholder events.

     

    So I called the company, left a msg, but didn't hear back. I'm not surprised nor upset. I would think they'd be more receptive after they've met me at a shareholder event.

     

    Anyway, still neat to see some basic stuff from the outside.
    16 Mar 2012, 05:00 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    The divorce of ownership and control in public corporations. Curious what percentage of shares one would have to own before one could meet with principal officers.
    16 Mar 2012, 05:24 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Yeah, for keeping old files, cheaper than Saples. I mean we have to cut corners now that we have videos and Vani to worry about...lol...
    16 Mar 2012, 05:29 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    metro: I'm not sure that concern applies here. When the CC communications provider messed up last year, TG himselff called many of us personally when we left messages saying we had unanswered questions.

     

    I was both surprised and pleased.

     

    HardToLove
    16 Mar 2012, 05:31 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    A couple decades ago I was Exec VP of a public oil and gas company and got more calls than you can imagine from people who owned a few hundred or a few thousand shares but wanted to keep me on the phone for a half-hour. They never quite got the message that I could spend my time holding their hand on the phone and fading questions about non-public information or I could spend my time putting together multi-million dollar acquisitions, but I couldn't do both.

     

    When a company has several thousand stockholders like I'm sure Axion does by now it's almost impossible to get through to the top hands unless you have a long standing relationship. The best way to get to know the management of a public company is to take the time to visit them when they've set aside time for the express purpose of meeting shareholders, like the annual meeting.
    16 Mar 2012, 05:57 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    HTL,
    I think that was exceptional on TG's part, but probably an anomaly in the corporate world. It was also because of this concentrator that a means to communicate was established.
    metroneanderthal
    16 Mar 2012, 05:58 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (3529) | Send Message
     
    Agreed, at least we know it likely wasn't just discard or extra cases being left outside indefinitely.
    16 Mar 2012, 10:56 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (3529) | Send Message
     
    Once I was invested in a micro-cap that was local to me and I stopped in to say hi. Then a slick willy type gave me a grand tour and kept dropping what seemed like inside info to me. My meeting concluded with him telling me I should invest more if I'm able. I sold the next week. Thankfully so since it later turned out to be a fraud.

     

    I'd be more worried had they pampered you =)
    16 Mar 2012, 10:58 PM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4100) | Send Message
     
    bazooooka - perfect illustrative story
    thumbs up for clarity (and well done getting out of that company)
    17 Mar 2012, 12:43 AM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10560) | Send Message
     
    I agree, JP. (But the PowerCube unveiling was on Monday, November 28). The shareholders' conference last year was on a Wednesday. Seems the CC announcement date is abnormally late.

     

    Have a feeling early next week we'll receive notice of the upcoming CC. I'm getting itchy to find out what happened to that small mountain of empty battery casings, and what those in-hand purchase orders are about.

     

    Back to the easy chair. March Madness is on (while I prepare my 2011 tax info to take to my accountant next week).
    16 Mar 2012, 03:44 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    The Power Cube unveiling was the Monday before Thanksgiving and subject to timing that was dictated by others.
    16 Mar 2012, 04:28 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10560) | Send Message
     
    Nope. PowerCube unveiling was on November 28, the Monday after T-Day ( I recall driving through insane truck free traffic...to Pittsburgh, Sunday the 27th). TG even remarked at the unveiling how tough a date it was because of everyone spending T-Day with family, then having to get to New Castle the day after one of the busiest travel days of the year. The CEO of Viridity didn't make it from Philly.

     

    Unless T-Day has moved into December...eee, ahh, doesn't matter now anyway.
    16 Mar 2012, 04:41 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    My mistake. The PJM announcement was pre Thanksgiving and the unveiling was the first opportunity after PJM spoke. Holidays still play hell with normal press release behavior.
    16 Mar 2012, 06:01 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3442) | Send Message
     
    Hmmm..... why delay a CC announcement? You usually delay committing a date for something because you're waiting for something else to happen first (which the main something is depending on). I wanna/gotta think (hope) TG must be trying to get some development/announcement nailed down before pulling the trigger on the CC schedule. It's been too quiet. The window is getting tighter...
    16 Mar 2012, 04:07 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    There is no delay in announcing the year-end reporting date.

     

    In 2011 they made the CC date announcement on March 17th.

     

    In 2010 they made the CC date announcement on March 25th.

     

    In 2009 they made the CC date announcement on March 27th.

     

    The annual report is due at the SEC on March 29th, so it has to happen by that date.
    16 Mar 2012, 04:26 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3442) | Send Message
     
    Thanks John, for squashing my misinformation. Apologies to all. I responded to the notion of a delay without checking the facts. I gotta stop doing that. I guess the anticipation is just getting to me...
    16 Mar 2012, 04:33 PM Reply Like
  • pascquale
    , contributor
    Comments (126) | Send Message
     
    John, Thank you for keeping track of "everything", I thought it was dragging out too but wouldn't know where to look for the timing of prior years announcements.
    16 Mar 2012, 04:41 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Like skipping town, not allowing a shareholder to look around?? How busy are they???

     

    Honestly, i am not expecting much from this cc or the stock would have started to rise with SOMEONE leaking some info out....Just my opinion.

     

    map
    16 Mar 2012, 05:34 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18467) | Send Message
     
    LoL! Take off your tin-foil hat - it's starting to put mine to shame!

     

    There's enough real things to worry about.

     

    In good spirits,
    HardToLove
    16 Mar 2012, 05:37 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    If you'd spent the time I did fighting Axion fires started by employees and "friends" who spoke out of turn you wouldn't be the least bit surprised. You can't just let a stockholder look around. You have to provide a tour and somebody to answer questions and be generally cordial. The time spent with one stockholder may not be burdensome, but if you try to satisfy the demands of several thousand stockholders there aren't enough hours in the day. Public companies schedule events so that stockholders can tour facilities and meet management without disrupting operations. There's no other way to run the business.
    16 Mar 2012, 06:06 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    JP

     

    Thank you

     

    map
    16 Mar 2012, 08:15 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (990) | Send Message
     
    MAP...I refer you to JP's comment today...
    "...more calls than you can imagine... but wanted to keep me on the phone for a half-hour. They never quite got the message..."
    I have been through several M&A in the financial services side.
    The CEO/CFO could not possibly entertain all calls and messages...AND do their day job. (as John noted above)
    Nor do they want many hands in the pie.
    Be it small or large company, key information has to be controlled.
    AND, as with trolls on blogs, there are certain calls that absolutely HAVE to be screened or ignored.
    16 Mar 2012, 10:03 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    MAG

     

    I understand all of that. I was a CFO for a start up company. So i understand getting off of the phone. But if we had a cc i was more than happy to give out that date. Maybe more investors come to mind. That is why i am confused with JP'S answer about tight lips about a cc or the stockholders meeeting.

     

    It goes against why i would want to invest in that type of company. I see no reason to just say March 27th at 10 am. Looking forward to it .. I personally don't see any valid reason NOT to want the investing public to want to know..

     

    Maybe someone can explain to me why. I am the first to admit i do not understand the technical side but i sure understand the sales side.

     

    map
    16 Mar 2012, 10:35 PM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (561) | Send Message
     
    Mr. Investor: I sent an e-mail to the company several months ago wanting to visit. The PR guy got back to me quickly saying he'd forwarded my request to the company. I never heard anything back. Not a total surprise. I'm planning to attend the investor day this summer (if it is held).
    16 Mar 2012, 05:18 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3112) | Send Message
     
    I'd like to make it, but not sure if I can.
    17 Mar 2012, 06:08 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3442) | Send Message
     
    I would think it would be a pretty touchy thing for a small company like Axion to have individual investors crawling around at random times... they wouldn't want to expose the person to any clearly material inside info, would want to make sure they didn't see too much, would also want to vet them to ensure no industrial/corporate espionage etc... would just seem to me to require a lot of energy on the part of Axion to accommodate individual visitors like that, and still keep themselves safe... particularly when any and all info is so hungered after...
    16 Mar 2012, 05:27 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Nope, not a total surprise. They don't want you to see them with their feet up on the desk shooting rubberbands at eachother now would they...

     

    Maybe it is just me but a company that just had to cut the stock in half by doing a placement should behave a little nicer to shareholders don't you think????

     

    Then again i remeber Jon waiting days for a response to an email, did you ever get one??

     

    Chew on that over the weekend folks...
    16 Mar 2012, 05:38 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    MAP,
    If you have such a poor opinion of management and the company, just curious why not sell your shares and move on?
    metroneanderthal
    16 Mar 2012, 06:06 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    I've been on the other side of that criticism a couple times in my life and can assure you that no executive has enough hours in the day to hold the hands of every stockholder that wants a little love. Companies that have a few stockholders can go that extra mile. Companies that have a few thousand stockholders can't.

     

    The question you need to ask is whether you want management spending their time holding stockholder's hands or building your company?
    16 Mar 2012, 06:14 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10560) | Send Message
     
    MAP: Well, somebody has been busy...apparently those ~ 100,000 empty battery casings have disappeared since I saw them Nov. 28th; thanks to Mr. Investor's sleuthing. That small mountain didn't melt away because of global warming. ;-)

     

    We've known since before last July the shelf offering was coming.

     

    Screw the rubberbands...when you have graphite sheets that would make great frisbies during the dead times! In my younger days I could have spun one of those 75, 80 yards, easy. I coulda been Captain of the Axion Power Electrode Frisbie Golf Team.
    16 Mar 2012, 06:04 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    MAYA......casings.....

     

    Just because those casings are out of sight does not mean they are not on the ground.Could of made a great prop as well...lol.. Please tell me where you think they are?? As well as those orders you talk about all the time??

     

    If you knew all along about sales then why did we cut a deal for 35 cents a share to a bunch of flippers, and they were flipping..Million share volume days tend to make one feel that way....But i guess if you bought the stock over 2 bucks you had no choice but to average down and invest way more than you expected to.

     

    You see the troll was right, he nailed it, and i am glad i waited until it hit rock bottom to try it out. If i don't feel comfortable i will get out just like any other investment.

     

    Others, i have a feeling have their lives savings tied to this stock. I hope it works out. I am no battery geek, so most of the postings go over my head. But i also have no idea what goes inside Apples chips but been very happy with that investment.

     

    But waiting for a train to move, or the stock price for that matter is very disturbing the longer it goes on. Those who disagree either have a lot of money at their disposal or go to church and pray a lot.

     

    Anyway we shall see in a few days, then well know where we stand.imho. But to see so many opinions on a stock move a penny is scary...
    16 Mar 2012, 07:47 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10560) | Send Message
     
    Sheesh, MAP.

     

    Get your facts straight. Where on earth did you ever get the idea I own any $2.00 shares? Don't you recall my ripping a champagne cork when Axion went over 55 cents, before the direct offering?

     

    With the addition of 101,500 shares after the offering, my average share cost is now about 52 cents (I haven't figured it out to the penny for some time now).

     

    Many times here in the APCs has the small mountain of empty battery casings I saw been discussed. Until the coming CC, no one will know what became of them. But most likely, they have already been made into flooded batteries and shipped off east bound to East Penn. TG has called this "gravy money" for Axion Power.

     

    Many of the geeky-type comments also go right over my head, too. But, what I know is that the PbC offers something unique, otherwise BMW and Norfolk wouldn't still be testing it.

     

    About the direct offering: Axion Power needed to raise money. What people do with those $8M plus is up to them. I don't blame the flippers one bit for trying to make some of their investment back right away. Nothing unusual. Happens all the time in other concerns.

     

    I appreciate your impatience. I wish Axion shares would move up, too. Prepare yourself, it may not be until July or later when this happens.
    16 Mar 2012, 09:01 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    MAP

     

    Thanks for th update, but as i posted somewhere it wasn't the person answering the phone about the cc or stockholders meeting. I was transferred to a person i was told would know.

     

    My only concern is the secrecy of it. I understand keeping a tight lid on certain things. Some of us were from the working world, But to have no one know the dates has me scratching my head. Thats all...
    16 Mar 2012, 09:24 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10560) | Send Message
     
    MAP: Please reread JP's above comment about why Axion hasn't yet announced the date of the coming CC. I'm simply at a loss of what else to add, or say, or write.
    16 Mar 2012, 09:34 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    MAYA..Sorry maybe i missed it, but i do not see anything that would have an employee not be able to let people know when the cc is. I am going to be out of town on a business trip and want to make sure i do not schedule any meetings around the time of the cc.

     

    Maybe you can give me a short answer as to why the will not give out the date. I would appreciate it . I am unaccustomed to a company that does not post it. So maybe i will learn something...Thanks
    16 Mar 2012, 09:53 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10560) | Send Message
     
    Easy. Axion hasn't yet figured out themselves when to give the CC date, when to hold the CC. As JP wrote, SEC rules state that they must file by the 29th.

     

    There is no secret!
    16 Mar 2012, 10:04 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Ok, but that sends off alarms to me...We are less than two weeks away. What could possibly be the problem???

     

    I am clueless!!! I would think you would want that published everywhere possible for advertisement...What am i missing??? I ran a sales force and i would be pushing everyone to be giving that date out.

     

    Especially since i had a ton of stock options...lol...
    16 Mar 2012, 10:40 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (3529) | Send Message
     
    MAP,

     

    I'm not sure if you ever been in a micro-cap before with this kind of potential. Also maybe you've never ridden a stock from pennies into dollars (and vise versa and back again). I assure you that 50% downdrafts are not uncommon. Nor are 500% updrafts if things execute. Your in a great stock here. Sure there's a chance that it might not work. There is also a good chance that it could go up 10-100 fold before the decade's end.

     

    If you figure the odds of failure at 25% then 75% of the time you'll make 5 to 10 times your investment. Try then with 10+ companies and you'll have a great portfolio. I hope this roller coaster rider doesn't dissuade you from the BIG picture. I for one enjoy all the banter as we go in this long journey.
    16 Mar 2012, 11:12 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    There is nothing odd or unusual going on. Axion never announces conference call dates more than a week or two in advance. If you scan their press releases for prior years you'll see that:

     

    In 2011 they made the CC date announcement on March 17th.

     

    In 2010 they made the CC date announcement on March 25th.

     

    In 2009 they made the CC date announcement on March 27th.

     

    Scheduling a conference call can be a logistical nightmare if your executive staff is busy or some key participants will be on the road working with customers and potential customers. You're worried about potential scheduling conflicts with your meetings. Multiply that by three or four other people who have to agree on a time or date.

     

    The annual report is due at the SEC by March 29th. There will be a conference call when the report is filed.
    17 Mar 2012, 03:01 AM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    BAZ

     

    Thanks for the intelligent answer. I sincerely appreciate it. Some here try to fool everyone and have them believe they fully inderstand it all. Those should stay flipping burgers, Your explanation makes sense..

     

    You are correct, i never invested in a micro cap before, so it's best i stay silent and let others speak and chat all day about a penny move and what it means. Because personally i have no reason to understand that urgency either..

     

    But if it is important i will. Just tired of reading people stating this stock will be at 60 cents in a week, I believe that was a month ago. So it seems a few are clueless also...
    17 Mar 2012, 08:49 AM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    MAYA

     

    Where did i say YOU owned shares over 2 bucks anyway??? Please do not put words in my mouth...Jeeez....I was staing that some here bought way ahead of me, and had to average down. Hence they spent more than they wanted to. Got it now??? I have my facts straight....
    17 Mar 2012, 09:17 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1844) | Send Message
     
    Warning: sensitive new-age 90's guy comment:

     

    MAP, I can see how you're a little wound up wanting to know the date of the CC and not being able to find out after making calls. I understand that.

     

    But I'm going to ask you for a favour even though you don't know me and have no reason to grant me any favours except that I'm a fellow Axionista.

     

    In email and here on these kinds of 'message boards', statements come out sounding and feeling a lot more harsh than perhaps was intended.

     

    In your above post, to me, you come off as sounding pretty insulting to fellow Axionistas with comments that they 'should stay flipping burgers' and 'are clueless'.

     

    Perhaps it was not your intention to insult or perhaps you meant it in that way that friends razz each other but have an underlying respect. Or perhaps you were just responding in kind to perceived insults from others.

     

    So the favour I ask of you and all others is just to try extra hard to communicate the underlying respect for the Axionistas.

     

    When I read Maya's comments I can tell he's trying very hard to be cordial, to 'disagree without being disagreeable' as JP likes to say.

     

    To be fair, DRich, your comment to MAP was a little harsh as well.

     

    Being an Axion investor is stressful enough without us pushing each other's buttons.

     

    D

     

    !Vivan los Axionistas!
    17 Mar 2012, 09:35 AM Reply Like
  • Mercy Jimenez
    , contributor
    Comments (2383) | Send Message
     
    Beautifully stated McHattie. This should be a footnote reminder on ALL SA articles not just the APH..
    Thanks,
    mj
    17 Mar 2012, 09:43 AM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4100) | Send Message
     
    Regarding the hand-wringing about phone call responses, meeting announcements, and such...

     

    First, JP answered this well above...

     

    Second...

     

    This is a company, not a waiter. No tip is required, and we can walk out of the restaurant anytime we want.

     

    I believe most of us here are invested in the future of the technology and future assumptions about profitability, and thus AXPW is a long-term hold and/or accumulate for us.

     

    I think overall the APH team has a very good relationship with management considering that outside of John and Kirk perhaps, I don't think any of us own enough that we have to file our holdings with the SEC.
    16 Mar 2012, 06:05 PM Reply Like
  • jpau
    , contributor
    Comments (850) | Send Message
     
    New topic: I know it's a little early, but I'm thinking I'll come to the annual meeting this year. If I don't gain some sense and sell my bike, I'll ride out. As long as it isn't stormy, might be a good ride.
    16 Mar 2012, 07:59 PM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4100) | Send Message
     
    Excellent!
    16 Mar 2012, 08:08 PM Reply Like
  • KentG
    , contributor
    Comments (368) | Send Message
     
    jpau: How far is the ride for you? I hope (plan) to be there as well. What do you ride?

     

    Kent
    16 Mar 2012, 08:57 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    I would like to be there too and will plot a course to the front gate. It would be nice if the guys on bikes would help me scout a place for our 75' land freighter...
    16 Mar 2012, 11:56 PM Reply Like
  • KentG
    , contributor
    Comments (368) | Send Message
     
    Tim: I will not be riding out this year, I am coming from Cali. I hope to ride out in the next couple years after I retire On Axion stock.
    17 Mar 2012, 12:50 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2151) | Send Message
     
    Hi Tim,
    Do you strap on a Freightshaker everyday? I drove class "A" for 15 years and loved it, still wish I was on the road.
    17 Mar 2012, 01:29 AM Reply Like
  • jpau
    , contributor
    Comments (850) | Send Message
     
    I'll be coming from Indy, think it's about 400 miles. I've got a 10 year old 1150 RT (BMW)
    17 Mar 2012, 01:37 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Hey Stilldazed. My wife and I semi-retired a few years ago and decided to adventure the country through the eyes of a gypsy (rather than a tourist) and selected the trucking industry. We started at the bottom and went through the whole process which was an experience for sure. The folks here are good people but are being exploited by the brokers and carriers. It is very sad...

     

    Three years ago I designed and built a custom vehicle that is part class-8 truck and half motor-coach. It was a fun project and I learned a lot about the Trucking, RV and the Marine industry. Our hybrid is actually more Marine than RV with the electrical and instrumentation but most view it as an RV with a class 8 hitch.

     

    So, now we travel the US moving freight from here to there until the time comes to fully retire. I need the sunshine so the weather dictates where we lay our tracks. I am independent so I get to choose where I go and when I get there. A couple weeks ago I took a load to MD that just happened to be about 30 miles from DC. I took the truck and trailer, fully loaded, to the Navy Welcome Center to have a look at what goes on there. Probably not a good idea with all the construction and narrow streets (and corners) but I live for the adventure and my moto is "nothing ventured, nothing gained".

     

    I like my independent life. My responsibility ends when I deliver my load and I am free until the next time I accept a load. Anyway, thanks for the interest. I have created a collage of the pictures of my "home away from home" and will run it as my profile picture for a couple days so you see "my ride". If you look close you can see the 820w of solar panels on the roof...
    17 Mar 2012, 08:36 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    KenG: "I hope to ride out in the next couple years after I retire On Axion stock." I second that!
    17 Mar 2012, 08:59 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2151) | Send Message
     
    Tim,
    Nice ride, a few thousand more LED chicken lights and you'll be set. I wish I could do the same. I miss the travel and all the good people on the road. It can be a tough life sometimes, but a good one.
    17 Mar 2012, 09:24 PM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4100) | Send Message
     
    Tim Enright,

     

    Great stuff. Would love to read a blog or book about your transitions, ventures, and experiences.

     

    Have you ever stopped at Tinkertown outside Albuquerque? There's a story of a boat there that might be of interest.
    18 Mar 2012, 09:51 AM Reply Like
  • KentG
    , contributor
    Comments (368) | Send Message
     
    jpau: Hope it is a nice ride for you that day. That's a pretty good one day trip. See you there. 8-)
    18 Mar 2012, 04:08 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Stilldazed. Ah the Midnight Riders are a sight to be seen! They are so bright I can't see for minutes after they pass me. It's a wonder their batteries ever get charged. The people are good/real and it can be tough but there is a lot of love out there.

     

    We'll have to share some stories over a beer one of these days...
    18 Mar 2012, 05:23 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Jon. We both blogged daily for the first year and it was hilarious. I developed a web site that integrated an IP camera, an on-board weather station with the Google Maps API for the purpose of letting family and friends follow along. We left tracks all across the US that included a picture forward out the windshield along with current weather conditions. It was fun experience but I had to take it all down when we started hauling classified stuff. I have the archives though. We don't haul classified stuff anymore, just over-dimensional stuff.

     

    I am always interested in places that warrant a visit. Haven't been to Tinkertown. Do you live near there? have you been?
    18 Mar 2012, 05:42 PM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4100) | Send Message
     
    Tim,

     

    Where is the link to your blog? It'll go with a bunch of other stuff I have to read... but it will not be investing which will be oh so relaxing :-)

     

    I used to live in Albuquerque (for eight years). I'm not there now... back on the east coast. HOWEVER, Tinkertown is among my favorite places worldwide. Make sure to get a $5 of quarters or so when you buy your tickets at the register (they'll buy back what you don't use), plus at least two nickels per person. Tickets are cheap, things that cost a quarter are fun, and the one thing that costs a nickel if operating is somewhere between amusing and humbling. If you like wood carvings, independent spirits, eclectic art, old time circus memorobilia, the story of a rustic boat and its sailor, provocative quotes about life, and an old one-manless band (the fabulous Otto), Tinkertown is highly recommended.

     

    Lastly, if they still have the grab-bags of gift items from the shop (something like a $3 pot-luck brown bag of kid toys), they're fun and a bargain.
    18 Mar 2012, 07:05 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2151) | Send Message
     
    Tim,
    Sounds good.
    18 Mar 2012, 08:48 PM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4100) | Send Message
     
    Tinkertown website: http://tinkertown.com
    18 Mar 2012, 11:28 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    We blogged on MS spaces and it has since been deleted. I did archive it and when I get around to it I will see about sending a copy to you.

     

    Tinkertown sounds like fun and is on our list. Thanks for the tip!
    19 Mar 2012, 07:15 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10560) | Send Message
     
    I'm not riding with any of ya'! But I own a touring bike which has one of the first ever carbon rear wheels. The bike raced, and won, some Appalachian race, as so I was told. Through owning this bicycle I met Greg Lamond (sp?) at the Dupont Hotel in Wilmington, DE.

     

    In earlier times, I was a paperboy. Rode a three gear handlebar shifter bike every freaking day for about three years. Hauling afternoon pounds of the Philadelphia Bulletin around my suburban neighborhood. Baskets empty, I could kick butt hauling a bicycle up Valley Forge Mountain against my crony pals.

     

    Later in life, I bought and rode this award winning touring bike. Went out to some parks where cars passed by and drove me into the gravel. Anyone who has ever ridden a touring bike knows gravel ain't fun to ride through.
    17 Mar 2012, 01:53 AM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    Did the Camino de Santiago a few years ago. Did it in six days without training thinking 100-120 kms a day would be easy if I stopped and had a cup of coffee every now and then. Boy, did I ever suffer for that error in judgement.
    17 Mar 2012, 05:45 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    Thirteen years ago I rode the Trek Tri-Island with my dad and two of my brothers. Way too much up but unforgettable. My worst big ride was the Hotter'n Hell Hundred – Wichita Falls Texas in mid-August.
    17 Mar 2012, 07:29 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30504) | Send Message
     
    Let me be the first to wish everyone a Happy St. Patricks Day, the one day of the year when being as green as possible is obligatory.
    17 Mar 2012, 03:23 AM Reply Like
  • Gerry W
    , contributor
    Comments (59) | Send Message
     
    Thank you John.
    Happy St Patricks day,from a dull and gloomy Ireland, both from weather and economic viewpoint.
    Come to think of it ,it is not that gloomy. We play England in rugby this evening and hope to put the old enemy to the sword.
    17 Mar 2012, 04:21 AM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (502) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » 8888888888888888888888...

     

    New concentrator http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    8888888888888888888888...
    17 Mar 2012, 07:47 AM Reply Like
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