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  • Axion Power Concentrator 78: Beginning March 17, 2012, Bangwhiz's Article, Selling The PbC Battery - It's Not Easy Being Green! 170 comments
    Mar 17, 2012 7:46 AM | about stocks: AXPW

    These instablogs and the people who maintain them have no relationship whatsoever to Axion Power International other than possibly being shareholders and/or interested potential investors. To our direct knowledge no person with a current relationship to Axion Power International participates or follows the activities in these instablogs.

    With that out of the way ...

    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!

    A gem of an article by Bangwhiz:

    Selling The PbC Battery - It's Not Easy Being Green!

    There are two important facts about the Axion PbC battery stockholders need to understand. First, it is not a commodity product like bananas or standard lead acid batteries. Its different. Secondly, being different engineers have to design new systems versus whatever they've done before if they are to benefit from its unique performance characteristics. That means change, and like the Eagles sang in their song Sad Cafe, "But things in this life change very slowly, if they ever change at all."

    People and organizations resist change unless they are either forced by some outside pressure, or the benefits to them are so great it is sufficient motivation alone. In the case of the PbC battery two organizations, Norfolk Southern and BMW, were drawn to the PbC battery because they had a problem the PbC might solve for them. Conventional commodity lead acid batteries were not up to the demands of stop start automobiles or battery powered electric locomotives. They were embracing and seeking change.

    Inventors have been waving magic beans in front of engineers eyes forever and often those magic beans lose their magic very quickly when engineers attempt to put them to practical use. Consequently, engineers are inherently skeptical of anything new until it has proven itself truly useful and reliable.

    Because the PbC battery has different electrical and performance characteristics engineers at a fork lift manufacturer, auto company, railroad, or any other company will need to design and build new electrical and or mechanical subsystems specifically engineered for the PbC battery before they can benefit from the PbC 's magic beans.

    BMW and Norfolk Southern possessed a strong enough interest in the PbC to commit to the time and money required to conduct preliminary test and evaluation programs followed by conceptual system designs, then building actual prototype systems made specifically for the PbC. That has been followed by more test and evaluation of the prototype systems and perhaps modifications to the prototypes leading to a final design. This activity would be coupled with trade off studies of any final PbC system design versus all the other possible solutions including detailed cost benefit number crunching studies. The engineers design and develop, the bean counters rule.

    Because of any non-disclosure agreements Axion has signed we do not know the status of most of the ongoing potential customer development programs for the PbC battery. Big organizations are big because they haven't made any big mistakes. It is an inherent slow process demanding patience from Axion and its stockholders. No one is more anxious to sell the the PbC battery and produce millions of PbC electrodes for the lead acid industry than Axion's management. It is just going to take the time it takes and not a minute less.

    Axion does have one product not subject to so much trial and tribulation - the PowerCube ranging in size from the mini-cube to 20MWs. You could almost write a design spec and purchase order on the back of a napkin. 10 MWs standby power for 30 minutes. Some have suggested Axion create some sample PowerCubes and give them to prestigious customers to try free of charge. You just "plug" them in. Not hardly. You need to run the power into and out of the PowerCube and that means site specific power distribution systems, building permits and construction. The installation may need to be fixed inside a building with all the design and construction that entails versus sitting outside in a trailer.

    I'm not an engineer so I am not going to try and describe what all a customer has to do to utilize a PowerCube, but it is going to be a lot more than "just plugging it in." Axion Power Concentrator commentator, DRich, who is an engineer, said, "I don't know if this covers it, but even in grid applications, 'samples' aren't all that practical. Even though the batteries are the same, it is easy to assume that is where 'sameness' ends. Each business will have a different power use profile and thus the inverters/transformers will be different almost every time. The BMS and/or the software may need to be tailored to each power profile. There is considerable cost in engineering associated with those 'samples'."

    Anyone who wants to buy whatever size PowerCube they want for all its benefits will need the services of an electrical engineering firm, or an in-house electrical engineering staff, to integrate the PowerCube into their facility. Then there are all the software control issues that will need to be sorted out for the specific customer's power usage profile. It isn't rocket science, but it is involved and takes time and money to accomplish. There is no free lunch. For my money I would rather Axion Power Director of Marketing, Vani Dantam, just sell someone a PowerCube than probably spend the same amount of time and money trying to convince a prospect to take one for free.

    An Axion Power sales rep can't just waltz into a E-Bike or forklift or UPS manufacturer and say, "We've got a special on PbC's today, 3 for the price of 2." Think about how many people in a prospective customer have to agree that building anything using the PbC - a product they've never seen or used before, with nothing sitting around they can just drop it into and then turn it on - is worth their time, money and effort?

    I have a lot of major account sales experience. I've been Vice President of Sales for a hardware design, development and prototype engineering company. I've been Manager of Business Development for a nuclear engineering firm. Most of the time when you go through the door of a large company representing a new product or service it is just like pushing in the side of a sponge, the minute you leave everything pops back out just like it was before. Nothing has changed. If you are lucky maybe whomever you talked to talks to their boss, who then talks to his boss, etc etc.

    When they want you they call you. Until then, you are just whistling Dixie. Then after they call you it isn't a done deal. Everybody up the line has to confirm the decision. The numbers have to work, the details have to mesh, the timing has to be right - and on top of that they have to like and respect you and your organization. They have to be true believers.

    So when you are screaming for Axion Power CEO, Thomas Granville, to just sell or give away Powercubes or PbC's, you need to understand the complexity of doing so, and the time required to achieve an actual sale. Engineers are methodical, cautious professionals who have their careers at risk every time they draw a line or circle. They are not going to endorse anything until they are certain of the cost and benefits.

    About a year ago I made a bold statement that I would like to get on the phone and sell PbC's on straight commission. I said I might starve for a while but I would eventually find somebody who would buy some PbC's. John Petersen said "I wish it were so simple." He was right and I was over reaching a bit. I just didn't realize the complexity involved in selling the PbC because it is different from existing commodity lead acid batteries.

    I fully recognize the sales and marketing issues now, and if you haven't thought about it before perhaps this article will lead you to further contemplation on the subject. I still wouldn't mind selling the PbC, but I would pack a lot bigger back pack full of food before I picked up the phone. I would also plan on it taking one or more years of work before I might get a sale. Its just a tough business being green if you are a frog, or selling a PbC battery nobody has ever used before.

    ####
    Hearty gratitude to Bangwhiz on behalf of the Axion Power Concentrator series!

    ####

    During the past seven months the Axion Power Concentrators have organically grown into a vast trove of information all things Axion Power related, all things battery related, all things Energy Storage Sector related.

    Between now and 15 years from now, the global expenditure on energy in every way energy is created, delivered, conserved and used will be in the trillions of dollars.

    Derived from well over 12,000 Axion Power Concentrator comments comes to us a compendium archive created by APC commentator Bangwhiz. In short here is what it is, and does:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one; including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    It also contains a "New to Axion" section for people who are new to Axion and want a good starting point for their own due diligence. The site is updated daily as new links are posted to current comment threads. Links are posted by topic and can also be found using the "Search This Site" tab.

    The Comment Search Feature on the homepage is great for finding a comment you want to read again that would normally be lost in all the thousands of past comments. Simply search using a good key word or phrase, or any Google search term modifier, such as AND etc.

    New Feature: You can now search all past comments or just the past 3 months.

    Complimenting the Axion Power Concentrator Web Site is the Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, "A repository of information about Axion Power International, Inc. and PbC® battery technology" created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Want to ask, or have someone ask, Axion Power leadership a question during the forthcoming late March 2012 conference call? The following link led by Bangwhiz is where you can write your question, maybe have it discussed and expanded upon before the conference call.

    http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/667879-bangwhiz/279411-axion-power-2011-q4-march-conference-call-questions-list?source=kizur

    ####

    This is a troll free zone. All disruptive comments that violate Seeking Alpha's Terms of Use Agreement will be removed and permanently recorded in a separate Instablog.

    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!

    Enjoy!

    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

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Comments (171)
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  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (513) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » A thread started by Jpau about riding to the CC can be found starting here.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    17 Mar 2012, 08:05 AM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (513) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » Last comment by Gerry W in concentrator 77:

     

    ========
    Thank you John.
    Happy St Patricks day,from a dull and gloomy Ireland, both from weather and economic viewpoint.
    Come to think of it ,it is not that gloomy. We play England in rugby this evening and hope to put the old enemy to the sword.
    ========
    17 Mar 2012, 08:07 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (996) | Send Message
     
    The more things change...

     

    What's Behind Rising Gas Prices?
    http://on.wsj.com/yJ0MiO

     

    "Still, charges of speculation and price manipulation are already being resurrected from 2008. This is nothing new. As early as 1923, Sen. Robert "Fighting Bob" LaFollette, chairing highly charged Senate hearings on gasoline prices, warned that if companies were permitted "to manipulate oil prices . . . the people of this country must be prepared, before long, to pay" the unheard-of-level of at least "a dollar a gallon." As it turned out, within a few years gasoline was as low as 10 cents a gallon."

     

    ...the more things remain the same...

     

    or...

     

    history has a way of repeating itself!
    17 Mar 2012, 01:22 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    ... or at least rhyming.
    17 Mar 2012, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • pianomanshl
    , contributor
    Comments (313) | Send Message
     
    Is 'Valeo' big player in stop/start system manufacturing?

     

    http://bit.ly/w4GJyA

     

    "It can be applied to up to 4-liter gasoline and 3-liter diesel engines and easily adapts to both manual and automatic transmissions"

     

    "This capability makes it suited for the United States market, where more than 90% of vehicles are equipped with automatic transmissions and drivers expect smooth and silent start-stop operation, Valeo suggests"

     

    So stop/start in Automatic transmission no problem?
    17 Mar 2012, 08:55 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2112) | Send Message
     
    S/s was a problem for automatic transmissions. This is one reason the European manual transmission market were early adopters of the S/S systems.
    Now companies like Bosch have created automatic transmission systems for S/S that should fuel the US market in the next couple of years.
    17 Mar 2012, 10:43 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    Valeo is a very big player in the stop-start mechanical systems market. It's also the manufacturer of the electric supercharger used by the LC Super-Hybrid.

     

    Valeo and Bosch are both saying that they've got systems for automatic transmissions.
    18 Mar 2012, 01:35 AM Reply Like
  • Lafferty
    , contributor
    Comments (253) | Send Message
     
    JP, can you clarify the relation between Valeo and Maxwell? I know that they announced a collaborative relationship some time back, but what I'm less clear on is whether all or only some of Valeo's StARS systems employ Maxwell's ultracaps. Poking around on the net for a while didn't lead to a clear answer for me.
    18 Mar 2012, 09:26 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    The *relationships* are typically loose *collaborations* where two or more part suppliers work collaboratively with each other to deliver the best possible performance to a manufacturer. In the case of Peugeot, for example, Valeo sells the mechanical components, Continental sells the energy storage system and Maxwell is a component supplier to Continental. Most part suppliers have several collaborations where they'll actively work with competing developers of comparable systems and it's not unusual to see a battery supplier like Axion working with Valeo, Bosch and others. The collaborations are valuable in the sense that it's hard to do business without them but they're generally loose enough that they don't confer any particular competitive advantage.
    19 Mar 2012, 02:01 AM Reply Like
  • Lafferty
    , contributor
    Comments (253) | Send Message
     
    Thanks.
    19 Mar 2012, 07:47 AM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (1120) | Send Message
     
    A reasonable article as I would expect to find out of geen car reports.
    I enjoy the comments.

     

    http://hgm.me/xonvp2

     

    The author is getting nailed for guessing 7% annual improvement. I think he has his hockey stick leaning the wrong way in that his hockey stick should lay on its side and not vertical. The easy gains have already been made.
    17 Mar 2012, 10:49 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    I tend to think that pieces like the Automotive News interview with JCI Power Systems president Alex Molinaroli are more persuasive and realistic – http://bit.ly/ziE86D – but certainly believe everyone is and should be entitled to his own opinion.
    18 Mar 2012, 01:48 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    Found this locomotive technology presentation - see page 21. It was created on January 9, 2012. It discusses the Axion solution as the most promising technology of several advanced battery technologies NS is considering. It would appear to me that this may be the source of TG's aggravation with NS and why he mentioned potentially talking to some other railroads.

     

    http://bit.ly/zcUar0
    18 Mar 2012, 02:27 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    The filename is: technology-vehicle_rep... Since the date in the filename matches the date on the document cover, I think there's good reason to believe the August 11, 2011 date is correct.

     

    I've spent years helping micro-cap companies work their way through the broker-dealer's due diligence that precedes every public stock offering. Those investigations are always comprehensive because broker-dealers who fail to do an adequate due diligence investigation can be held liable to the investors for the entire amount invested.

     

    I have never participated in a due diligence investigation that did not include lengthy direct conversations between the broker-dealer and all principal customers. Unless the broker-dealers are fully satisfied with those conversations, the deal won't close.

     

    We can speculate until hell freezes over based on historic documents and snippets of discussions in the last conference call, but we have over nine million tangible reasons to believe that Norfolk Southern and Axion's other principal potential customers were pleased with the way their relationship with Axion was progressing at the end of January.
    18 Mar 2012, 03:05 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for that Stefan.

     

    "Once the laboratory testing of the batteries in long-strings is finalized, NS will focus on the safety system requirements of a battery-powered locomotive." Thought this was an interesting comment in light of the youtube video which highlighted the safety system in the PC. Article also said that the Green Goat had issues with battery fires, being that NS is also well aware of this, part of the perceived delay, if there is one, may be just this. Just my SWAG.
    18 Mar 2012, 04:58 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    Good call, I was going by the date created on document properties ...
    18 Mar 2012, 09:40 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2250) | Send Message
     
    I don't understand what could be aggravating to TG in the article. What are you referring to? Since the first 999 was a failure they are just making sure they don't have another in my view. The two most recent "official" NS comments I've seen posted within the APC's have been positive about the PbC. As for timing that is up to the customer.

     

    Putting together both an over-the-road and switcher locomotive are not chump change projects, particularly when you consider the cost of all the equipment, plus the engineering, assembly, and testing talent required. I used to have a rule in a small manufacturing company I ran. It went "the money will have to fight for the money." Stupid sounding but it simply meant there are always competing priorities for whatever funds are available.
    18 Mar 2012, 09:56 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    I am going from straight memory, but I recall the last time we heard from TG that he was talking about speaking with some other railroads ... and I thought that there may have been some aggravation that NS was not moving faster or that maybe TG was getting jerked around by NS. As I recall, the first purchase order from NS was supposed to be a 4th qtr event ... then a 1st qtr event ... we are now very close to moving into the second qtr without an announcement. TG wouldn't have made those statements unless he was fed them from somewhere ...

     

    hence, my thoughts that TG was beginning to get frustrated with NS telling him one thing but then doing another.
    18 Mar 2012, 10:21 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Why would any company have an exclusive?? Axion should be talking to any company interested. If it is a competing RR so be it. If Axion isn't doing this then someone needs to explain that logic to me!!!

     

    As a shareholder i could care less about hurting someones feelings while i sit around with zero orders so far. They want to take their time so be it, but to be held hostage to NS is utterly foolish.

     

    Just maybe another RR would have put in a significant order by now and MAYBE we could have avoided that 35 cent giveaway...The longer the wait, the more chance of disapprearing.

     

    I look for sales, not promises as a small company....
    19 Mar 2012, 12:07 AM Reply Like
  • gottliep
    , contributor
    Comments (40) | Send Message
     
    From the last picture of the NS 999 it appears that it is being set up for a test with the NS 36 which is NS' electronic monitoring platform.

     

    Why it took longer than expected is speculation, but here goes my optimistic thoughts on this. When Axion first sent batteries to NS, they were original prototype which although it had good characteristics for dynamic charge acceptance, did not have full capacity to capture all of the regenerative energy that might occur in the OTR setting. Then Axion develops their newer slightly larger (hence needed refit of NS999 - last 2 months) and stronger battery which is the higher power 8-cell, 16V L5 PbC® battery which in theory would have a greater ability to capture the braking energy. So now NS wants to test this new battery to determine in simulations being run at Penn State if it truly can capture more of the energy.

     

    Now that they have seen the simulation results (fall 2011) which hopefully were positive, they want to take it out on the rails and see how it does in real life testing. That is where they are right now (testing in April/May). Therefore, it may take till 2nd quarter (late April/mid May) to see an order if this final testing goes well, but it should be a large and ongoing one I would think if all has gone according to plan. We know that they have the budget for retrofitting a number of locomotives per year and have several Green Goats they could start with as well.

     

    How much TG will be able to say at the CC next week about this will let us know if this is the path that NS is taking.

     

    My SWAG and hope.

     

    We will see in a few days time.
    19 Mar 2012, 01:26 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    Whenever a company like NS embarks on a proprietary project like the battery powered yard slugs and road locomotives it's looking for a competitive advantage. So the first thing it tries to negotiate with suppliers is some sort of exclusivity to ensure that it won't do all the work of developing an idea and gain no particular advantage. The rework of the NS 999 to work with the PbC was a multi-million dollar commitment for NS, so I'd have been amazed if there weren't some exclusivity provisions. It's neither good nor bad. It's just business.

     

    I was involved in a situation some years back where Axion wanted information on charging algorithms from an automaker and the first thing the automaker asked for was five year exclusivity for an entire class of vehicles. We decided we didn't need the information that badly.

     

    Over the years Axion has gotten very good at avoiding open ended exclusivity entanglements. Contracts are normally written in a form that says "we won't work with your competitors on a carefully defined class of product for a period of X months and in the event that Y and Z happen and you buy $AA worth of products within the initial exclusivity period, we'll extend the exclusivity period for BB years as long as you buy $CC worth of product per year.

     

    In the last CC, Mr. Granville said that NS had progressed more slowly than anticipated and Axion had opened discussions with other railroads. I interpret that as an indication that part or all of the exclusivity that Axion gave NS on the front-side expired and freed Axion up to be more proactive.
    19 Mar 2012, 02:28 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    My sense is that NS is simply being ultra-conservative because it doesn't want another failure. The first time around they did a big unveiling ceremony that involved the Secretary of Transportation, Congressmen and other dignitaries. Subsequent releases bragged on the workhorse capabilities of the NS 999 – until recuperative braking loads blew out the batteries in a matter of weeks.

     

    Companies hate well-publicized triumphs that promptly turn to dust. If they continue working on an idea that failed, they're way more cautious the second time around. NS has been testing and evaluating the PbC since the fall of 2009 and instead of doing all the work in-house they're running double redundant testing at both Axion and Penn State. They've literally spent more time evaluating the PbC than they did building the NS 999 in the first place. They can afford delays, but they can't afford another public failure.

     

    Over the last year we've seen NS speak with steadily increasing confidence about the superior performance of the PbC compared to the AGM batteries they used first time around. The next time NS brags on the NS 999, they won't have a failure in a couple weeks.

     

    I have very schizophrenic views when it comes to the amount of time NS, BMW and others are devoting to testing. There's nothing in the world I want more than a commercial launch of the PbC in somebody's high profile vehicle. At the same time, there's nothing in the world I want less than a high profile commercial launch that results in a recall a few weeks or months later because somebody overlooked something.

     

    Late last year A123 took a $10 million hit because somebody screwed up on a cooling system hose clamp for the Fisker battery packs. That kind of avoidable error is inexcusable.

     

    The bottom line from my perspective is that I can afford to have Axion and its customers delay a major product launch for more testing, but I can't afford the risk of a premature launch without adequate testing.

     

    People who plan to sell on the launch news may not care about the long-term success of the product. Those of us who have invested in the technology are more willing to give everybody the time they need to do it right the first time.
    19 Mar 2012, 02:59 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    Sell on the launch news? Sell on the launch news!? What kind of raging masochist endures months and years wandering this desiccating wilderness only to quit right at the doorstep of our blessed oasis?
    19 Mar 2012, 03:17 AM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    JP

     

    Thanks for the info. It is what i was hoping for...Honestly i would rather have NS give us a nice order but don't want to be left at the alter either.

     

    Lets hope we learn more next week,

     

    map
    19 Mar 2012, 05:09 AM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    You would think trying to kill the technology for years should give them confidence. My take is that since we buckled for a 35 cent gift we are not close to anything remotely largely profitable yet.

     

    Or we would have just said no thanks, we can make it on our own. My take may be off but i would be surprised if i am wrong. If management is that sharp they had no choice to raise capital.imho
    19 Mar 2012, 05:18 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    A couple years ago another promising battery technology developer, Firefly Energy, needed financing and got several term sheets that the board rejected because they thought the price was too low. Firefly's management spent several months trying to find better terms while their cash resources dwindled. When Firefly gave up and went back to the investors they'd spurned earlier, the investors had put their funds to work elsewhere. Firefly ended up in bankruptcy and its stockholders suffered a total loss.

     

    There is no act in the world more foolishly arrogant than leaving cash on the table because you don't like the per share price.

     

    If it had been me sitting across the table from Granville I would have started the price negotiation at a discount from the December low. Getting me to pay a 30% premium to that low for a 25+ million share block would have taken brass knuckles.

     

    I wish things had progressed according to the plans Tom had in mid-November, but there was no way to predict that Special Sits would slam three million shares into the market in the last 45 days of the year. Sometimes you get dealt a bad hand and have to play the cards anyway.

     

    I'm not happy with the price Axion got, but I'm proud as hell that the board had the backbone to take a beating and do the right thing even if it was unpopular. The directors who made the decisions are all sitting with average out-of-pocket costs of well over $1 per share and total investments ranging from $1 to almost $8 million.

     

    They took what Axion needed on terms that hurt them far more than they hurt any public stockholders. In the process they pushed out Axion's runway for another year and left plenty of time to do things the right way.

     

    I've walked miles in those shoes over the last 30 years and understand the negotiating dynamic well. I don't want to seem unduly harsh, but criticizing smart people for doing the smart thing is petty.
    19 Mar 2012, 06:30 AM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    JP

     

    I was mearly stating that by accepting that offer i tend to believe we are not close to anything major, thats all. I am not questioning their backbone. I would just assume if an order was in hand or close then they might of held out for better terms.

     

    That i do not find as petty,Like i said we will see how close we are in a few days. When i started to follow the stock all i read was how close the NS999 order was. Still waiting !!!

     

    map
    19 Mar 2012, 07:49 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    A $10 million dollar financing takes months for initial discussions, due diligence investigation, documentation, negotiation and closing. A company can walk away from the table at the 11th hour and start the process over from square one, but it can't "hold out for better terms."

     

    No right minded broker-dealer or investor will ever sit still for "let's wait a month or two so I can charge you a higher price."

     

    When a deal is finally ready to close the only choices are "take it or leave it."
    19 Mar 2012, 09:39 AM Reply Like
  • Ricknplano
    , contributor
    Comments (328) | Send Message
     
    That is exactly what TG told me on the phone. NS passed on some deadlines and allowed Axion to open discussions with others. This is not unusual. NS could be fussing about it, but with no one to blame but themselves. It is business and they understand.
    19 Mar 2012, 10:29 AM Reply Like
  • Ricknplano
    , contributor
    Comments (328) | Send Message
     
    John is correct. Deals take months (in real esate, sometimes years) to get to the closing table. You do not negotiate terms at the closing table unless you are willing to start over from scratch. While I was surprised to get only 35 cents a share, a price that made me sharply reconsider and lower my expectations for the stock, I do understand that even if management felt they "probably" could get better terms later, they could not take such a risk unless they were certain of it.
    19 Mar 2012, 10:38 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (996) | Send Message
     
    anyone else having trouble accessing Stefan's link?
    19 Mar 2012, 02:22 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    Working fine - it's a PDF and should download. I've done it fine twice now.

     

    If you can't get it, PM your e-mail to me and I'll send a copy to you.

     

    HardToLove
    19 Mar 2012, 02:26 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Rick

     

    Exactly what i have been yelling. We are not close to anything major yet. Or why take on flippers.
    19 Mar 2012, 11:53 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    MAP,
    What leads you to cite the new shareholders as flippers, and not longer term holders?
    20 Mar 2012, 08:34 AM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    MET

     

    Because after the offering we had volume daily of over 1 million shares being sold, then it quieted gown to almost nothing. Just my opinion. What do you attribute to such a large volume daily immediately after the offering??imho they were grabbing a 20% return. That is what rich people do!!!
    20 Mar 2012, 09:10 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    The trading volumes for December and January, the two months before the offering, were 10.9 and 12 million shares, respectively.

     

    The trading volumes for February and the first half of March were 9 and 2 million shares, respectively. While I tend to believe that there was some flipping by purchasers in the offering, it was far less important than the "assumption that there would be flipping" which put everybody into bottom feeding mode.

     

    Axion's pre-cash market capitalization was $52.7 million. With $8 million more cash on the balance sheet its market cap is $46 million. Does that make sense to you?
    20 Mar 2012, 09:33 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Although having never participated in the type of offering that was made, I recall JP commenting that investors who participate are discouraged from flipping. There was only the initial day when there were a large number of shares trading (don't have the exact amount, but looks about 2.4 million shares on the graph I'm looking at) and then settled back. If we cut 2.4 million in half for sales, only 1.2 million shares were sold the day of the offering. This would be a fairly small number compared to the total shares that were offered. IMHO, this doesn't indicate that there are a large number of flippers in action.
    20 Mar 2012, 09:57 AM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    MET

     

    No one is discouraged from flipping. This is America and once a person owns the shares they can do what they want to. If you don't think the volume picked up after the offering then you are entitled to your opinion. I seem to remember days in the 500k share range .

     

    I am under the assumption that more than thought flipped and made a profit. If you disagree than you are entitled to your opinion. But it was way more than one day that the volume spiked after the offering.

     

    Now we have a trickle....imho
    20 Mar 2012, 10:14 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    As JP already pointed out, volume was much heavier previous to the offering. The volume doesn't support your hypothesis, and additionally would represent a small total when compared to total offering..
    20 Mar 2012, 10:20 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    On January 31st, the 10-day average volume was 414,140 shares, the 20-day average volume was 599,040 shares, the 50-day average volume was 506,582 shares and the 200-day average volume was 311,337 shares.

     

    On the closing date volume spiked to 2.55 million shares. Since then there has only been one million share day. There is an immense difference between acknowledging that there was a little flipping immediately after the offering and wildly exaggerating the amount and importance of the flipping.

     

    Numbers and facts matter, and some of us track them carefully.
    20 Mar 2012, 10:27 AM Reply Like
  • eggwis
    , contributor
    Comments (769) | Send Message
     
    Good find Stefan! Thank you.
    23 Mar 2012, 04:05 AM Reply Like
  • eggwis
    , contributor
    Comments (769) | Send Message
     
    MAP,

     

    "No one is discouraged from flipping ..." ~that is absolutely inaccurate. Have you ever participated in a IPO? One of the criteria the underwriters and dealers look at in deciding who to invite to participate is always an investors historical track record in holding stocks for some significant period. If you call your broker, I'm confident they will tell you that I'm correct. Investors are selected in part, on their track record of holding. Obviously there is no way to keep a shareholder from selling his shares, but if they see you do it, you get a big black mark by your name and your odds of participating next time around have diminished. Also, depending on how many shares a given investor buys, selling 1 mil shares may have been only 1 or 2% of his total allocation. I don't think it's frowned upon to flip, provided that the flipper is selling a tiny portion of his total allocation.
    23 Mar 2012, 04:34 AM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Egg

     

    Thanks for the lesson. I appreciate it. I just felt that looking at the volume right after the placement we had a bunch of flippers. I could be wrong. I am new to Micro stocks so i am learning a whole new set of investing rules.

     

    Map
    23 Mar 2012, 05:40 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    Questions of a little or a lot are all relative, and complicated by the fact that OTCBB trading has a "double count" where a selling shareholder's sale to a MM counts as a transaction and the MM's resale to a new investor counts as a second. For the first couple days after the offering volume was heavier than normal, which is a clear indication that there was some flipping. It was enough to spook people a little, but not oppressively out of line. Reported trading volume for January was 12 million shares. In February and March to date the reported volumes were 9 and 2.7 million shares, respectively. So even if every share that traded since the offering came from buyers in the offering, the volume of resales would be less than 20% of the total.

     

    What I think we're seeing right now is buyers sitting on the sidelines because they're afraid the direct placement purchasers might behave badly. While some of them seem to be willing to sell for a 10% spread, prior experience with these things tells me that it's usually a small percentage of the total rather than a large one. Once them that are willing to flip run out of stock, they'll be as irrelevant to Axion's future as Special Situations.
    23 Mar 2012, 07:54 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    Stefan Moroney: You are a good man sir!

     

    Off to read it now!

     

    Thank you!

     

    HardToLove
    18 Mar 2012, 03:04 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Stefan. Have not seen that one - thanks! hopefully Bang is nearby and will snag that one for the archives...
    18 Mar 2012, 06:06 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2250) | Send Message
     
    Put it in archives.
    18 Mar 2012, 09:45 PM Reply Like
  • Lafferty
    , contributor
    Comments (253) | Send Message
     
    Info on the recently discussed BMW ECO PRO mode:

     

    http://bit.ly/ACgrGs

     

    It appears that much of the 20% potential savings has to do with scaling back features such as AC, heated seats, etc., and encouraging more fuel-efficient manners of driving.
    In truth, this is a relief to me as an Axion long; I started to worry that BMW had magically found some way to get amazing fuel-efficiency gains without the PbC (true gains, that is, not the ones that leave you unhappily sweating in your car) [also assuming they are not using the PbC for this- something I am very hesitant about since we have been told that BMW will need to do small-scale vehicle testing for a longer period].
    18 Mar 2012, 11:12 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    At ELBC 2010, Renault explained that its testing program for starter batteries takes 24 months start to finish, including vehicle testing. The PbC is not a commodity battery so testing will take longer, but BMW is already 31 months into that process and we were told in November that the PbC had moved off the bench and into vehicles.

     

    A few years ago BMW conducted a field operational test to compare the stop-start performance of flooded and AGM batteries in four vehicle fleets that offered an urban profile, a highway profile and a mixed profile with city, overland and highway elements. The cars were operated for two or three shifts per day to ensure that annual mileage and battery cycling were exceptionally high at low calendar age. The road testing took six months and then the results were analyzed. The tests and analysis are is described in detail in a pair of articles in the Journal of Power Sources.

     

    The bottom line is we could be looking at several more months of testing and analysis or we could be done by now. There's simply no way to know until somebody says something. I'll be paying very close attention to what Tom says and doesn't say during the upcoming conference call.
    19 Mar 2012, 03:47 AM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (834) | Send Message
     
    Just returned form a short trip to England.

     

    Rented from AVIS a BMW320d with 37,000 miles.

     

    Start/Stop equipped but not working.

     

    At the return I asked about it and was told that it was a common problem that their mechanics generally ignored.
    19 Mar 2012, 09:51 AM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2250) | Send Message
     
    That's useful info. Thanks AB.
    19 Mar 2012, 11:09 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3156) | Send Message
     
    Yeah, thanks AB. Confirmation of what the lab testing says.
    19 Mar 2012, 03:33 PM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for that AB. Liked you.
    19 Mar 2012, 04:07 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (834) | Send Message
     
    Browsing on the web came across a BMW user site in the UK.

     

    Lots of mad owners unhappy with their start/stop/battery problems.

     

    http://bit.ly/GACnSE

     

    BMW must be getting so many complaints about poor battery performance by now that I would think that they would be very keen to use Axion's product.
    20 Mar 2012, 10:11 AM Reply Like
  • KentG
    , contributor
    Comments (368) | Send Message
     
    AB: They need to be educated about SS. Then they would demand better. 8-)
    20 Mar 2012, 10:25 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1921) | Send Message
     
    It is good to see human beings talking about it rather than studies.
    20 Mar 2012, 10:27 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Albert, Nice link! funny how most of the people blamed the SS system or the changing system but few realized the battery had failed. Also, the shops response on a 2.5 year old system was to put the battery on the charger and not replace the battery? anyway, there was one post that included the following;

     

    "New battery = problem solved"
    20 Mar 2012, 10:33 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    We need a member of that forum to post a link to the Axion white paper and other stuff.

     

    If PbC will succeed because of "BMW requesting Axion", BMW may be more prone to do that if customers are complaining and requesting it! Yeah, in my dreams! BNMW would just say "we'd have to re-engineer it".

     

    HardToLove
    20 Mar 2012, 10:40 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1921) | Send Message
     
    The question is will improvements like the one Exide has with the carbon enhanced Spiral wound AGM design make replacing the battery every 2-3 years acceptable to manufacturers in their warranty/maintenance free services? If two AGM's for the price of one PbC makes economical sense and customer satisfaction sense, they could just stick with that, but you do have to factor in shop labor switching out the battery as well as customer satisfaction costs.

     

    It would seem to me in a consumer oriented environment like the states BMW would want to get it right the first time with superior equipment (think Honda law-suit), but I am not BMW's economic pencil sharpeners. Will BMW's testing of a better product show an economic advantage going to the PbC? I hope so but it is a tight window and none of it will come easy.
    20 Mar 2012, 10:44 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    The hilarious aspect of service calls is that when the garage tops up the battery to 100% SOC, the stop-start system will function perfectly for the first 10 stop-lights after the customer picks up his "repaired" car. Once the battery hits the magic 80% minimum acceptable SOC the problem is back with a vengeance.
    20 Mar 2012, 10:45 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4807) | Send Message
     
    >H.T. Love ... That is a good idea. Have a member of the APC "join" the forum (I'm sure someone here owns a BMW) and post a link to Bangwhiz's web page, the APC instablogs & Mr. Petersen's archive (or a BMW specific article). Nothing more should be required than that.

     

    A little grassroots push.
    20 Mar 2012, 10:56 AM Reply Like
  • KentG
    , contributor
    Comments (368) | Send Message
     
    Better still, a link to the BMW/Axion Istanbul presentation. That should explain it all. 8-)
    20 Mar 2012, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4807) | Send Message
     
    >KentG ... I know it's being a bit "Pushy" but owners complaining and knowing a solution might exist could be that spark we've been waiting for.
    20 Mar 2012, 11:06 AM Reply Like
  • Articula
    , contributor
    Comments (281) | Send Message
     
    It seems weird there has been no announcement for a CC. I kinda feel like some news may be lurking. Just a hunch..
    19 Mar 2012, 11:42 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    Announcing the date of a year-end call that has to happen by the end of the month isn't generally thought of as a big deal. If you check Axion's press release archive you'll find that

     

    * Last year the call date was announced on March 17th;
    * The year before the date was announced on March 25th; and
    * The year before that the date was announced on March 27th.

     

    I don't think there's much of an inference that can be drawn from the quiet.
    19 Mar 2012, 02:31 PM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    Will there be an after hours trade of 15,000 shares?
    19 Mar 2012, 04:04 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3156) | Send Message
     
    yep. Quercus has been telegraphing their sells for a long time now. Must be one of the kindest, gentlest liquidation programs I've ever seen.
    19 Mar 2012, 04:11 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    Almost - 250 shares at $0.3951! :-))

     

    I think this was a combo trade: clean up some dregs and position for tomorrows open by showing a higher close than the real 2x10K trades @ $0.39 @ 15:57:39.

     

    Volume almost exactly flat - 167.1K and today 167.74.

     

    HardToLove
    19 Mar 2012, 04:45 PM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (611) | Send Message
     
    There's an article on the NYT website called
    "House Panel to Cite New Flaw in Energy Loans".

     

    http://nyti.ms/GzmyKN

     

    In a section about innovation, it says: "To keep the projects originated by NextLight in the “innovative” category, First Solar sought to add a new feature to its Agua Caliente project in Yuma County, Ariz.: a piece of equipment called an inverter, which would allow the solar panels to keep operating even if voltage on the electric grid was disrupted. That technology has been in increasing demand since the 2003 Eastern blackout. It is especially important in solar farms as their numbers grow, because if they tend to shut down because of small disturbances in the grid, they will add to instability. "

     

    Can anyone explain what this means? Don't all solar panels have inverters already? It sounds like the problem is the lack of batteries? Thanks in advance.
    19 Mar 2012, 06:06 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    APM, I think they must have gooned the term and/or wording there. What I think they're talking about is something more like ZBB's PECC, which allows "islanding"... albeit on a much larger scale than ZBB's product. In residential solar, the ironic dirty little secret has long been that for a grid-tied system, your solar panels would only work as long as the grid was up. When the grid would go down for whatever reason, most people would naturally think that they would be able to utilize some solar power... but Nooo. Without the grid, the solar system goes down too, and the homeowner is still left without useful power, even though the cells themselves are still generating DC.... That situation is what prompted ZBB to design their PECC, and why it took so long to get UL cert, as it was a new type of device. Basically what it does is "island" your house (or factory, building etc) from the grid, if the grid goes down, enabling you to still use the solar power your system may be generating. Obviously, it works a whole heck of a lot better if you also have energy storage incorporated in your system, which is where ZBB's zinc-bromine flow battery comes in... anyway, how this would apply to a large scale First-Solar plant is unclear to me, unless it's going to be targeted to serve a defined set of loads in the event the greater grid goes down...
    19 Mar 2012, 06:31 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (996) | Send Message
     
    Musical chairs!

     

    US Secretary of Energy Steven Chu is set to visit Cambridge start-up Sun Catalytix

     

    http://bo.st/GzWinL
    19 Mar 2012, 08:42 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    (AXPW): 3/19/2012 EOD stuff I've been tracking.

     

    I want to mention 3/16 trading briefly. I think Quercus began selling then. This was documented in a comment by myself. Then JP mentioned that we often saw AH trades when that started. Sure enough, a 15K AH "form t" trade appeared at $0.3801, which happened to be the same price seen on 15K shares displayed during the day. 10% of the days volume, *excluding* the AH trade, would be ~15,210. So I think the AH trade was just the "closing entry" and not a real trade. We'll want to watch for the Quercus filings to see what we can learn.

     

    Assuming that Quercus wouldn't be selling *just* such a small volume, I think some of Quercus's shares were also hitting the market today, 3/19. We had a *small* 250 share "form t" AH trade at $0.3951. There were no other trades at that price. What seems to be most important is 10% of daily volume, based on what we've seen.

     

    I think the AH trade *suggests* that Quercus was selling today *or* the initial sell order to the market-maker was larger than 15K shares (most likely IMO) *and* the market-maker now needs trading to stay at or above the price paid for the shares (I'll make a guess of ~0.38 or maybe $0.375 based on 3/16 trading). 10% of the volume would be ~16,743 shares. Let's watch for that in SEC filings.

     

    BTW, we might have to consider some aggregate volumes in order to match up to the SEC volumes. Quercus could make a large sell to a market-maker who might dribble it out, although that would not be the market-maker preference. So it's likely the shares were sold to a broker (who may be the owner of the market-maker). The broker keeps the shares on his books and hands them off to the market-maker at appropriate times.

     

    I also think the AH trade was the market-maker "walking" the price up, as the highest price during the day was $0.3949. By showing that trade AH at $0.3951, the charts for this A.M. show a close yesterday, and initial price for today, of $0.3951. There's often some buying at the open "at market". This could establish an initial price range at the high end of yesterday's trading. If the market-maker is handling some Quercus shares, it will be important for trading range to stay at or above the market-maker price, on average.

     

    Excluding the 1 AH trade of 250 shares, there were 47 trades, 14 of which were 100-share "lures", all but 3 at the ask at the time. I think one of these was completing a 10K trade though (9.9K @ $0.3899 and 100 at $0.39 in the same minute) so I'm going to call it 13 "lures".

     

    Almost all occurred within a few minutes after a real trade went off that transitioned from a higher trade price to a lower trade price at or *very* near the bid at the time. Apparently the market-maker was trying to show a higher price for those that key on price trend - don't want to let 'em see selling pressure.

     

    The average trade size was ~3,495, near the higher side of recently seen averages. However, if we back out the "lures" (leaving 35 trades totaling 166,438) we averaged a trade size of ~4,755. The largest trades were 11.3K at $0.3801 (bid was $0.38) and 11.1K at $0.3899 (ask was $0.39). There were six 10K trades (including my adjusted one from above) at $0.3899-$0.39.

     

    Buy, sell and unknown ended at 126,200, 41,358, and 0 respectively, giving total volume for the day of 167,738. Buy:sell ended at 3.04:1. After a slow start early, we rotated from a slightly sell-biased ratio around 10:45 to positive and increasingly positive from that point forward.

     

    I had mentioned before that I didn't believe we could see any price movement until we began to see daily short sales come into more normal ranges, around 36% or so. Well, at last we've seen this, along with increased volume. Now let's see if price movement comes with it. If Quercus has much to let go of ATM, maybe not much price movement.

     

    I believe the increase in daily short ratios supports Quercus being in the market. It carries the implication, due to the certificate conversion delays JP has documented, to cause AXPW to appear on the fails reports again. Keep an eye on that as it may yield data that is useful - maybe even before SEC filings?

     

    As I've documented before, I believe that market behavior changes a bit as shares backing received sell orders flow to the market maker over time. If the market-maker is *not* covering and lets the DTCC net the market-maker position (I still don't know if this is done or how frequently) there should be little follow-on effect on share price. If the market-maker is covering his short sales with covering buys, when the shares backing the sell orders arrive we could see some downward pressure then.

     

    Right now I have trouble seeing the market-maker covering because I can't figure who besides Quercus would be selling any quantity at these levels. I figure the majority of the issuance "flippers" at this price level are exhausted and most folks that bought at much lower levels have taken profits if they intended to do so.

     

    *if* that's near the mark, I can't see much lower prices *except* as might be provided by additional Quercus sales. We don't know how long they will be in this time around.

     

    309 Vol 097113, Sht 017015 17.52% LHC 0.3850 0.4000 0.4000 b:s 1:1.47
    312 Vol 029330, Sht 006400 21.82% LHC 0.3700 0.4000 0.3970 b:s 1:2.63
    313 Vol 052541, Sht 008300 15.80% LHC 0.3720 0.3979 0.3975 b:s 1:2.97
    314 Vol 063574, Sht 010220 16.08% LHC 0.3715 0.3975 0.3801 b:s 1:2.55
    315 Vol 123396, Sht 020508 16.62% LHC 0.3700 0.3900 0.3800 b:s 1:2.09
    316 Vol 152099, Sht 057499 37.80% LHC 0.3751 0.4000 0.3900 b:s 1:2.14[1]
    319 Vol 167488, Sht 104800 62.57% LHC 0.3751 0.3950 0.3900 b:s 3.04:1[2]

     

    [1] There was one AH "form t" trade of 15,000 @ $0.381 excluded from FINRA data. The buy:sell ratio excludes this as well.

     

    It happens that there were exactly 15K shares traded at that price in a 1 minute and 11 second period during the day. So it may be the 15K AH was just reporting the close of trades executed throughout the day and may not require an adjustment to what FINRA reported. But since I think Quercus was selling this may have been a real trade. Let's keep an eye out for the Quercus SEC filing and see if we can determine how to treat this. JIC, I present a modified record which assumes both a real trade and a short sale are represented by that 15K AH trade.

     

    0316 Vol 0167099, Sht 0072499 43.39% LHC 0.3751 0.4000 0.3900 b:s 1:2.45[1]

     

    Historical volume reports from various services include the 15K as a real trade.

     

    [2] There was one AH "form t" 250 share trade at $0.3951. There was no trade at this price during normal hours. Because this is such a small percentage of both total and short volume, there would be insignificant effect on the reported and calculated values. So I've not made an adjusted record. However, I do think Quercus may have been selling again today and we'll want to keep an eye out for SEC filings.

     

    HardToLove
    20 Mar 2012, 09:11 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3156) | Send Message
     
    Sideways can be good--very good, as the longer we go sideways the bigger the pop, I've often seen.
    20 Mar 2012, 09:46 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1921) | Send Message
     
    I agree. It sheds weak holders.
    20 Mar 2012, 09:50 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2297) | Send Message
     
    And it gives us "inveterate bottom feeders" more opportunity to accumulate.
    20 Mar 2012, 09:56 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    Axion's market capitalization was $52.8 million on January 31st, immediately prior to the registered direct offering.

     

    After putting an additional $8.6 million of cash on the balance sheet its market capitalization currently stands at $44.2 million.

     

    For the life of me I'll never understand how even bottom feeders think Axion without a short-fuse financing risk is worth less than Axion with a major short-fuse financing risk.
    20 Mar 2012, 10:03 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1921) | Send Message
     
    That is true but I am done so I am not too excited about that part -- you guys could up the ante a trifle. :-)
    20 Mar 2012, 10:08 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    Yeth thir! And from my studies on TA, it's posited that that as the Bollingers compress and volume gets squeezed down as price compresses it's like compressing a spring.

     

    Having said that, on this stock in particular, due to ll being in "wait mode" I guess, we've often seen this situation result in a brrrth!

     

    Move range a penny or so and start doing it again.

     

    I believe it's because we're in low-volume modes with folks waiting for something. I see it less frequently on stocks that have good consistent volume - they "pop" a lot.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    20 Mar 2012, 10:16 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    Whew! At first I thought you said "Invertebrate bottom-feeders"! ;-))

     

    I can say with some confidence we don't fit that phylum! :-))

     

    HardToLove
    20 Mar 2012, 10:18 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    I read that as invertebrate as well the first time. Was thinking Spineless Accumulator would be a good profile name.
    20 Mar 2012, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3156) | Send Message
     
    I used to invest mostly in off-the-radar stks that after dropping a lot went sideways for awhile--sometimes a long while (which is when I'd get in). But boy, the ones that popped REALLY popped after that. AXPW reminds me of those stks.

     

    Another thing about trading/mkt making techniques--do you guys think the 10k shares that often moves $.0001 higher than the previous bid is "real", or another way for the mkt makers or someone to get a better price for the consistent sellers?

     

    Anyway, if someone wants out of 100k, there's that much still bid at 38 cents. Almost all morning, I think.
    20 Mar 2012, 11:08 AM Reply Like
  • KentG
    , contributor
    Comments (368) | Send Message
     
    I did the exact same thing yesterday so yes is the answer but maybe not all the time. I put in my order for 11300 shares @ .3801 and then approx. 20 seconds later it showed up on my Scottrade streaming quotes. It filled @ 10:18 (largest order of the day), my biggest purchase ever. 8-)
    20 Mar 2012, 11:22 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    I notice that 100K is from NITE. Some message boards I've visited say they are the biggest manipulator.

     

    Ignoring that, I've seen this sort of stuff a lot, either on the bid or the ask where they never move and, often, no trades go at the prices. But I see a lot of action in between bid/ask and/or at the opposite side (i.e. large ask, more trades at bid, large bid, more trades at the ask).

     

    I believe this to be one of the techniques to force folks who want in/out to come to some price point the market-maker has in mind.

     

    By rule now, the market-makers are supposed to balance when they are on both sides of the market. But I see a lot that don't bother. And there's so many exceptions to it that Tim could drive his rig there, fully loaded, park, build an Olympic-size pool and playground and have the neighborhood over for brats and brew.

     

    And he'd still not feel confined.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    20 Mar 2012, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    My pet theory is that the substantial bulk of the buying over the last couple years has come from people who've followed my work, double and triple checked the facts, and slowly built positions in the stock. In my experience, investors who are slow and deliberate with their buying decisions are equally slow and deliberate with their selling decisions.

     

    At some point in a company's development, the willing sellers run out of stock and the price has to move in order to shake enough shares free to meet new demand. I've seen the phenomenon many times over the years, but I've never been able to predict the inflection point in advance.
    20 Mar 2012, 11:35 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    My on-line brokerage service does not allow me to make three decimal point quotes. Several times I have put in bids at .40, as an example, and then not had the order filled, but those bids at .401 were filled. Wish I could do that third/fourth decimal sometimes.
    20 Mar 2012, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2297) | Send Message
     
    "My pet theory is that the substantial bulk of the buying over the last couple years has come from people who've followed my work, double and triple checked the facts, and slowly built positions in the stock. "

     

    So I guess that makes me one of your pet invertebrates?

     

    See, they can be trained!

     

    Spinelessly Accumulating....
    20 Mar 2012, 03:23 PM Reply Like
  • Poul Brandt
    , contributor
    Comments (277) | Send Message
     
    HTL

     

    Well well. The 100K is not a manipulation. I am just trying to bottom fish before it is too late. And I can only specify in cents, not 1/10. Working through a traditional regional bank in Denmark.

     

    Even if I do not get the order filled, it does apparantly help keeping a floor to the bottom for some days.
    20 Mar 2012, 03:36 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    I don't make the connection. *No* trades went at $0.38, one 2.5K went at $0.37 at the open, every subsequent trade has been >=$0.385 (12.5k) , some $0.388 (5K), all the rest >=$0.39 so far.

     

    ISTM, that since we can't prove a negative, the option left is action supports what I suggested as all trades were greater than the price of the *possible* (which is all I suggested) manipulation.

     

    Show me how this counters that because I always like to learn when I miss something.

     

    Thanks,
    HardToLove.

     

    P.S. The 100K is still sitting there - no trades against it - what I suggsted would be the case.
    20 Mar 2012, 03:44 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1921) | Send Message
     
    HTL, The 100k block is his order. It is not his first either he has bought a couple 100k blocks in the past.
    20 Mar 2012, 03:48 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    Ah! Well absent that information before hand and given the question that sparked my original response, I thought he saw something that made my response invalid.

     

    Thanks for clarifying for me!

     

    HardToLove
    20 Mar 2012, 03:50 PM Reply Like
  • Poul Brandt
    , contributor
    Comments (277) | Send Message
     
    HTL
    Sorry my english is not good enough to understand the details in what you write. I just wanted to tell you that the 100K limited to 0.38 USD is my purchase order. In order for you (and thereby everyone here) to better understand what is going on.
    20 Mar 2012, 03:50 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    Wasn't your fault Poul - you were clear. I was hurried and didn't catch the critical part that it was you bottom fishing.

     

    That's the trouble with all my computer screens and tracking multiple things (not an excuse, just a reason) - lack of focus sometimes causes me to make mistakes I shouldn't.

     

    My apologies for that.

     

    HardToLove
    20 Mar 2012, 03:57 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    It takes a good deal of steel to buy Axion, or for that matter any micro-cap. So I'll never suggest that any of the Axionistas are invertebrates or pets.
    20 Mar 2012, 03:58 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1258) | Send Message
     
    omg. when invertebrates cure pancreatic cancer will you finally stop the bashing! btw, bashing soft bodied creatures doesn't do much.

     

    http://1.usa.gov/GDOzqK
    20 Mar 2012, 04:36 PM Reply Like
  • KentG
    , contributor
    Comments (368) | Send Message
     
    There is now two comments on the BMW forum form Albert and a Jtaylor pointing the way to Axion. Way to go team!!! 8-)
    20 Mar 2012, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    If they are reading, I offer Albert and Jtaylor my humble appreciation and say "Thanks"!

     

    HardToLove
    20 Mar 2012, 12:38 PM Reply Like
  • User462699
    , contributor
    Comments (120) | Send Message
     
    You are most welcome. I'm Jtaylor over there. Just a lurker here and a holder of 0.133 % of AXPW. Been in since Aug. '09 waiting for payday
    20 Mar 2012, 02:15 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    thanks guys.
    20 Mar 2012, 03:11 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Great posts JTaylor & Albert! (I am assuming that is "our" Albert)
    20 Mar 2012, 03:22 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (834) | Send Message
     
    Trying to do what I can.
    20 Mar 2012, 03:36 PM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4084) | Send Message
     
    Many thanks to both of you!
    20 Mar 2012, 03:41 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2434) | Send Message
     
    Should we make clear it's NOT a drop in replacement?

     

    Reference: http://bit.ly/GBgl2e

     

    Search: http://sg.sg/GDI1qX
    20 Mar 2012, 03:52 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1921) | Send Message
     
    I don't think it needs to be talked about anymore, unless someone on the forum asks. It starts to look a little...well, salesman-ish. One or two posts is sufficient. imo
    20 Mar 2012, 03:58 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    "Should we make clear it's NOT a drop in replacement?"

     

    No, but you could tell them the Exide Spiral w/Carbon is <smile and just kidding>. Hey, unlike some people I held on to my Exide stock...
    20 Mar 2012, 04:30 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    User462699,
    Nice to have you around. That is a nice number of shares. Hope you get your payday and that you have been able to average down your pps.
    20 Mar 2012, 04:59 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10730) | Send Message
     
    For those debating about a penny stock that moved sideways seemingly forever, and then popped, I am enjoying one right now, Entertainment Gaming Asia (EGT).

     

    Check out the year chart, and then look what has happened this month; varoom!

     

    http://yhoo.it/GAMYOl;range=1y

     

    Sooner or later, this will happen with Axion Power, too.

     

    (You may have to hit the "one year" button on the Yahoo! chart.)
    20 Mar 2012, 12:14 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    Had a surge: 13:08 on went from ~44.5K shares traded and ramped up around three-ish. Currently 232.1K shares traded.

     

    Some bigger blocks than seen recently, ~24K, lots of 10K. I think these are Q shares getting fed in. Most very near the day's high - $0.39, $0.395.

     

    HardToLove
    20 Mar 2012, 03:29 PM Reply Like
  • Lafferty
    , contributor
    Comments (253) | Send Message
     
    I don't believe this has been posted:

     

    220th ECS Meeting, October 2011: Lead Acid Batteries and Capacitors, New Designs, and New Applications

     

    http://bit.ly/GDYInu

     

    Has links to abstracts of many interesting presentations, including one by Axion.
    20 Mar 2012, 05:28 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Lafferty!

     

    Check out program/abstract #705 - The LC Super Hybrid.

     

    "Thus CPT and ALABC have commissioned AVL Schrick to convert a vehicle to the mild hybrid system proposed and the recommended vehicle is the current model VW 1.4litre TSI ‘Blue Motion’ Passat"
    20 Mar 2012, 06:50 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    Lafferty,

     

    I found my way from your link to Axion's abstract. As I recall, it appears to be a one page version of their white paper and I think very manageable for anyone that had trouble getting through the longer white paper. I can't remember if I have seen this one before or not.

     

    http://bit.ly/GDiidq
    21 Mar 2012, 12:23 AM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10730) | Send Message
     
    Here's a "bimmer-bummer" stop/start quote from the Bimmerfest Bulletin Board:

     

    318D stop/start problem

     

    ----------------------...

     

    I have a 318D Sports that has an intermittent problem with the Stop/Start whereby when I depress the clutch to set off again at lights or a roundabout the engine does not restart. It's only happened one a small number of occasions in the 6 months that I have had the vehicle from New. It restarts when I push the stop/start button. It was just an inconvenience until yesterday when it did the same thing at the sliding security gates at work. The delay between the gates opening and my restart of the engine meant that they closed on me as I went through. Now looking at a few hundred pounds worth of damage!

     

    ####

     

    He's lucky King Kong wasn't chasing him!

     

    Link to the Bimmerfest board: http://bit.ly/GFna4V
    20 Mar 2012, 05:51 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2250) | Send Message
     
    I wanted to say that the .35 cent capital raise was both essential and was limited to only the funds that would carry the company thru 2012. It was a classic exercise of a good strategy called "buying time." It really doesn't matter to me when Axion succeeds in 2012 - 1st, 2nd, 3rd quarter it is all the same to me. I certainly expect the wait to be over by the end of the third quarter. I think D-Inv or somebody said they would be tossing food to the bottom feeders if something hadn't broken by then. Who can argue with that?

     

    On a more positive note I have seen more encouraging remarks out of NS this month in the APC's than I have ever seen before. I certainly don't mind waiting for them to do it right. While we frequently banter about BMW it is important to remember that Axion is dealing with multiple European OEMs as well as US OEM's. BMW isn't the only fish in that sea.

     

    Vani strikes me as being someone who is not going to strike out for the whole year. He's going to hit something. What? Who knows, but I bet it will be meaningful. It is important to remember that the PBC was judged the lowest total cost of ownership for grid storage, the best stop start battery, and, in NS's words, the most promising battery for railroads. Someone is going to buy the PbC.

     

    In the meantime, like DRich says, we wait for customer Number One. While we wait we can keep each other company and dig around for more insights. So far I've seen nothing bad and tomorrow's another day.
    20 Mar 2012, 06:09 PM Reply Like
  • amishelvis
    , contributor
    Comments (143) | Send Message
     
    Todays session makes 7 days in a row where volume has increased. fwiw, something to watch.
    20 Mar 2012, 06:47 PM Reply Like
  • Lafferty
    , contributor
    Comments (253) | Send Message
     
    'Understanding the Function and Performance of Carbon-Enhanced Lead Acid Batteries,' Sandia National Laboratories, October 2011:
    http://bit.ly/GDeQpQ

     

    All sorts of interesting data given there. Note that this is an ongoing study with ongoing, quarterly publications. These can be found by searching for the title of the article (it is the same throughout the different quarters) at:
    http://1.usa.gov/GBWima

     

    The next step is continued cycle testing (they are still relatively early in cycle testing). If the results are not good, a huge plus for Axion. At any rate, it will be a very public event, whatever happens.

     

    Very minimal abstract of the paper:
    http://bit.ly/GDeQpW

     

    A few things I'm taking away initially:
    1. A greater sense of the many different kinds of carbon-added lead-acid batteries that are being worked on. For example, East Penn is here exploring three different kinds. This is making me wish I knew more about which version of the carbon-additive batteries BMW/Axion tested against the PbC, and is making me realize that it might be dangerous to conclude from the weakness of that particular carbon-additive battery to the weakness of all such batteries.

     

    2. Did y'all have clarity on the fact that East Penn is developing not only the UltraBattery but also its own version of a carbon additive battery? I didn't, anyhow. Rather interesting. If the UltraBattery is everything it is supposed to be, why work on this other project? Still, I'd rather they were just working with Axion instead of doing their own thing. At the very least, though, it suggests or rather confirms that they are not putting all their eggs in the UltraBattery basket.

     

    3. East Penn is rather early in testing these technologies. That's also a plus for Axion.
    20 Mar 2012, 06:51 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3156) | Send Message
     
    I wonder as to what % carbon cathode Axion has a patent right? Only for 100% carbon? How about 99.9? 66 2/3%? 51%? Is this a grey area of the law or black and white?
    20 Mar 2012, 08:59 PM Reply Like
  • Deamiter
    , contributor
    Comments (164) | Send Message
     
    In patent number 7006346 they have the following claim:

     

    "16. The EDL HEC according to claim 15, wherein the negative electrode comprises at least one carbonaceous material."

     

    In patent law, "comprising" means "including, but not restricted to..." so to directly answer your question, it seems they claim any lead-acid battery with an electrode including carbon. Of course it's not literally ANY lead-acid battery as it's limited by claim 15 (and further detailed in other claims) but my non-expert reading puts it pretty close.

     

    I am not a lawyer and I haven't studied all of Axion's patents (or related IP), I just work with and on patents regularly in my R&D work so you might find my opinions useful.
    20 Mar 2012, 10:17 PM Reply Like
  • Deamiter
    , contributor
    Comments (164) | Send Message
     
    Here's another interesting claim from a slightly earlier patent -- 6466429:

     

    "1. An electric double layer capacitor comprising: a polarizable electrode made of a carbon material, a non-polarizable electrode including lead dioxide and lead sulfate, a separator between the polarizable electrode and the non-polarizable electrode, and an aqueous solution electrolyte containing sulfuric acid,"
    20 Mar 2012, 10:26 PM Reply Like
  • eggwis
    , contributor
    Comments (769) | Send Message
     
    Deamiter,
    I read through many of their patents a while back. My interpretation was also that they held rights to any carbon in the electrode, but like you, I am not expert in patent law.
    23 Mar 2012, 05:19 AM Reply Like
  • Deamiter
    , contributor
    Comments (164) | Send Message
     
    If I had time, the first thing I would do is look at some recent carbon paste patents and look at the patents THEY cite to get to one or two really broad carbon paste (or carbon anything in Lead Acid) patents. The wording of THOSE claims along with the filing dates might lead to some interesting revelations.

     

    Just in case anybody's interested...

     

    Note that you CAN patent something you can't practice -- for example I could probably patent a GPS-enabled PbC battery (with a different name so as to avoid trademark problems). It would grant me the right to block Axion Power from putting GPS transmitters on their PbC batteries but I still couldn't make the device until the patents covering basic PbC batteries expired.

     

    In other words, if there are patents out there that claim carbon additives, it doesn't mean those claims can be legally practiced.

     

    The more I write, the more I appreciate how little I know about patent law. It's ridiculous and convoluted and it just barely works, and God help the politician who tries to overhaul the system and gets mobbed by lobbyists from every technological and creative industry in America!

     

    Heck, it was hard enough just to change the US to a first-to-file system and that was after multiple attempts and many years as the only developed country with first-to-invent rules!
    23 Mar 2012, 06:03 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    Companies have been fooling with carbon additives for a long time and I believe most of that work is in the public domain. Replacing a polarizable lead based negative electrode with a non-polarizable carbon electrode is an entirely different species and that species belongs to Axion.
    24 Mar 2012, 01:52 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4807) | Send Message
     
    >Lafferty ... Every company wants to sell what they have developed on their own because .... they own it. I've got faith that the Axion PbC design is better than the rest and the Ultrabattery is good for the hybrid applications needed in the near future and at price points that are attractive. That said, research goes on because engineers think & say they can improve on such a simple idea and management doesn't like the idea of sharing revenue. Once the mediocre performance comes to light and the cost sinks into the 'bean-counters' heads, I think some of the larger manufactures will see the Axion electrode as a bargain and direct their research to improved devices and/or batteries. It will take time.
    20 Mar 2012, 07:11 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2421) | Send Message
     
    >DRich: A point is that any manufacturer capable of making AGM batteries can avoid any experimental expense for making potential PbC product until the customer calls to inquire about buying PbC AGMs. Any other "carbon electrode" option requires lots of "home grown" R&D.
    20 Mar 2012, 07:24 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4807) | Send Message
     
    >SHB ... Every company is going to explore in-house what they can do on their own. It's just the nature of the beast to think such a simple thing as adding carbon in some manner will be a winner. The sad thing is that the money & time will be spent to discover mediocre performance boosts which may be good enough for some applications.
    20 Mar 2012, 07:48 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1885) | Send Message
     
    It seems that carbon of some sort, in addition to more traditional battery chemistry is becoming the winner for the stop-start use.

     

    Most lead based battery makers are now moving in the direction of combining carbon and traditional chemistry. That likely started when Axion's product proved superior to carbon-less lead batteries in the tests we are all so familiar with.

     

    This may be too wishful, but it seems the game is on: If you want to be a player in stop-start batteries you must combine carbon and traditional chemistry.

     

    So:
    How deep is Axion's patent protection?
    What can be worked around that patent protection by other manufacturers?
    How will that work around compare to Axion? and
    What will that alternative, that is likely less good, cost?

     

    If Axion's patent protection is deep and wide, we are in for exciting times. Maybe we are watching the end game evolve: If you want a battery that works, until the new generation of batteries arrives, you may have to buy or license Axion's product or compete with a lesser product
    20 Mar 2012, 07:28 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1885) | Send Message
     
    JP or anyone knowledgeable-
    Is it possible for you/do you wish to comment on the patent depth and breadth as well as competing ideas?

     

    Most importantly, being first, did Axion understand and patent the idea that works best that can be produced at the most realistic price?

     

    Thanks,

     

    G
    20 Mar 2012, 07:59 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5705) | Send Message
     
    To all you guys above,
    I have been watching this "carbon mix" develop over the last few months, and even a few have found some demo uses. That combined with the failure of Start/Stop systems due to inferior batteries is what has convinced me that carbon is the key and the PbC is the best.

     

    The only problem I see, Is are any of these other tech's "barely good enough"? We have said many times that "the customer" will have to demand PbC before XIDE or JCI will ever license it.

     

    I posted many times when I first found this concentrator that TG better patent this thing forward & backward because the competition WILL try to steal it. or copy it. I do not know about the patents, but sometimes I doubt that it is patented enough. Too many are trying to work around it. Mostly with carbon paste for now.

     

    There's always the thought that auto mfg. would be thrilled to use a battery that lasts only 2-3 years at half the cost of PbC.
    20 Mar 2012, 08:11 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1258) | Send Message
     
    a big reason i started buying PbC is because it prompted these cheap imitators. like Drich says, companies are gonna try and do stuff in house. PbC has no sulfation problem. that is something none of the paste alternatives offers. endgame imo.
    20 Mar 2012, 08:19 PM Reply Like
  • anthlj
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    'PbC has no sulfation problem. that is something none of the paste alternatives offers'

     

    How can you possibly know this to be so?
    20 Mar 2012, 08:31 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4807) | Send Message
     
    >anthlj ... Testing. Go to the Axion company site and read the White Paper.
    20 Mar 2012, 08:33 PM Reply Like
  • Lafferty
    , contributor
    Comments (253) | Send Message
     
    DRich, doesn't the White Paper compare the PbC only with regular, non-carbon additive AGM? The original BMW/Axion presentation does, however, compare PbC with two carbon additives, to the definite advantage of the PbC. But it is still possible to worry that there might be other versions of the carbon-additives that might perform better than the two tested there. The more I read, the more I realize how many different types of carbon-additives are being developed; it is at least possible that some could perform better than others. I still think the signs point to BMW preferring the PbC, but other OEMs might prefer to try the cheaper forms for a while longer yet.
    Some interesting info from the ALABC presentation on different carbon lead-acid battery technology:

     

    http://bit.ly/GEOMc0
    20 Mar 2012, 08:51 PM Reply Like
  • anthlj
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    Sure, we know what is reported for PbC, and how that compares to standard AGM, but not how PbC compares to the emerging class of carbon additive AGM batteries.

     

    The only comparison that counts is the performance of PbC against its closest competitor (in the context of a price vs performance equation), whether that be Ultrabattery or a carbon enhanced AGM from JCI and Exide etc. These key data we do not have in hand. The ongoing Sandia work reported by Lafferty above suggests that the C additive AGMs are doing clearly better than standard AGM. How much better is the key question. Must be recognized as a potentially lethal threat to PbC in auto, especially with the sales and marketing muscle of JCI and the like.
    20 Mar 2012, 09:09 PM Reply Like
  • Lafferty
    , contributor
    Comments (253) | Send Message
     
    One thing to keep in mind in evaluating PbC vs. other carbon lead acid batteries is the distinction between charge acceptance and cycle life. Both important for these purposes (and not unrelated issues), but it's deterioration through cycle life problems that more directly causes the need for replacement and thus warranty issues. My point is that if the PbC is far superior with charge acceptance, then OEMs have a reason to use PbC even aside from warranty issues and cycle life: because the PbC, with better charge acceptance, can allow for more fuel-efficient measures, that is, heavier hybridization. I'm not claiming to have the data to support this conclusively, I'm just saying that it needs to be taken into account as data becomes more available. Replacement is not the only issue.
    20 Mar 2012, 09:34 PM Reply Like
  • anthlj
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    Yes, we need an apples to apples showdown. Shame Axion did not, as far as I can tell, pursue this route for the white paper. I suppose they had their reasons.
    20 Mar 2012, 09:53 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4807) | Send Message
     
    >Lafferty ... There may be better carbon additives than those tested originally but I don't know that and there is a better than even chance no one does. The most likely thing about the carbon additives that are entering the market is that they are only slightly better, if at all, than those previously reported on. I know the PR we read makes it seem things are changing at an incredible & fast pace but this is chemistry and that PR feeling is just that ... incredible. Things will change but that change will be measured in decades for commodity products.
    20 Mar 2012, 09:57 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1258) | Send Message
     
    oxidation can be explained as the result of electrochemical corrosion

     

    if your acid levels in a battery change as the battery moves from charged to not charged sulfation will result.

     

    PbC maintains a consistent level of acidity through various levels of charge = no sulfation.

     

    carbon pastes will slow corrosion by increasing the efficiency of electron transfer in a battery, but they will not eliminate the problem of diluted acid levels.

     

    http://bit.ly/GCF0XH

     

    they talk about various additives here and why they are used.
    20 Mar 2012, 09:59 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1258) | Send Message
     
    "as far as i can tell"

     

    you need to understand why sulfation occurs in a battery to understand why PbC avoids this problem. if by apples to apples show down you mean batteries that aren't to market, well that is a bit unrealistic. further adding carbon paste will not eliminate the oxidation that causes sulfation because the acidity levels in those batteries do not remain constant.
    21 Mar 2012, 01:26 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    The Axion BMW presentation at ELBC 2010 included performance graphs for:

     

    1. VRLA
    2. VRLA with electrically conductive carbon additives
    3. VRLA with high surface area carbon additives
    4. The PbC

     

    The carbon additives do improve VRLA performance significantly when your comparison base is VRLA. Their performance is still a long way from the PbC in terms of dynamic charge acceptance.

     

    http://bit.ly/oIU19K
    21 Mar 2012, 01:31 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    Your PbC vs carbon paste additive graphs are here:

     

    http://bit.ly/oIU19K
    21 Mar 2012, 01:34 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4807) | Send Message
     
    >LT ... You would be quite right. Auto makers would be thrilled with a battery that lasted 2-3 years and not a PbC, as would Exide, JCI et al. The majors will no doubt try to sell their carbon formula this way and slow Axion down. Trouble is, as that BMW blog pointed out today, customers would not because real people are so much harder on their cars than testing ever could be. They will not be happy the first time they fail inspection and raise hell when they find they have to buy a new battery every year just to get registration.
    20 Mar 2012, 08:20 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4807) | Send Message
     
    >LT ... I've often wondered about the "copy" problem. There are a few patents I'd like to see involving either the fabrication process and/or machinery unique to Axion's production. Just a thought because I'm not familiar with the line production but I've had passing thoughts that there is probably a patent or two in there. The only real threat of knock-off would be ... wait for it ... China.
    20 Mar 2012, 08:42 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5705) | Send Message
     
    I think it is in here somewhere that AXPW does have a patent on the manufacturing process. JP can explain better than me. But I am sure I seen it, because I have asked that before when I brought this topic up.
    China is always a threat. You just can't keep them from stealing tech made anywhere in the world. You can google lawsuits agains China and get only a glimpse. Same way with CNBC, Bloomberg, Market Watch. Not counting the companies that can't afford to sue because of already having a mkt there. Or small ones that can't afford a lawsuit.
    The latest one is by the company that hosts Wind Power windmills software. China bribed an engineer and stole the source code. This suit may stick tho, because it is well documented.
    20 Mar 2012, 09:19 PM Reply Like
  • eggwis
    , contributor
    Comments (769) | Send Message
     
    You are correct LT. JP has stated that the carbon use in the anode, the layering technology in the anode, the lamination technique and material in the anode, the process for activation of the carbon are all patented. To what degree, is a question I cannot answer. IIRC, there is also at least one patent regarding the capacitor function in the PbC. I'm not sure whether or not the manufacturing equipment and processes are patented, but I'm very confident that they have been patented to the extent possible. Axion is obviously keenly aware of the need to secure their rights to the technology, as the technology is what they have spent so much time, money and energy developing.
    23 Mar 2012, 05:42 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    Axion's patent protection started with an electric double layer capacitor that had a polarizable lead electrode and a non-polarizable carbon electrode in a sulfuric acid electrolyte. At each step in the development process, new patent applications were filed to describe the most efficient way to make a laminated electrode assembly and the most efficient way to use conventional battery manufacturing equipment to build a new class of device using unconventional electrode assemblies.

     

    The whole idea was to start with a core and then build a series of defensive walls around the core. I'm not a patent guy and find the field even more arcane than my own specialty. That being said the question of patent protection, strength and value is always a critical matter for broker-dealer due diligence and the standard protocol is to waive privilege so that your patent lawyer can talk to my patent lawyer and then your patent lawyer can tell you what he thinks. If the patent lawyers aren't happy with what they hear, the deal generally doesn't close.

     

    As near as I can tell, Axion and its patent lawyers have been through that process several times. Since deals keep closing I have to assume that the patent lawyers on the money side of the table are happy with what they've reviewed.
    23 Mar 2012, 08:05 AM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (661) | Send Message
     
    The last time I remember JP addressing the issue of patents, he stated that Axion had a very broad patent that covered carbon on the negative electrode. He declined to speculate and left the details to the patent lawyers. I think Axion has 8 or 9 patents that cover the PbC battery technology.
    20 Mar 2012, 09:41 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1885) | Send Message
     
    IMHO, the Game Has Changed: Axion has about knocked out AGM. They've always compared their battery to conventional batteries. Everyone seems to agree that Axion won that game.

     

    The new game is: Will Axion knock out the new contenders that use carbon in some form in an AGM battery. Somehow, it doesn't seem fair :) (If that's a smile.)

     

    You can get a content and process patents. Axion's moat depends on how broad the patents were. I don't think the patents were for combining carbon in all forms, with AGM in all forms, and in all places in the battery and then manufactured in a way that keeps others out of a competitive production process.

     

    Likely the patents are for a specific type of carbon and AGM combination in a specific way and in a specific place in the battery. I don't know that the process is covered.

     

    What a time to think of doing my DD instead of falling in love with the idea and the story!!!! ( I know they have patents...but what are the alternatives not patented?)

     

    Now, if they were very bright and really knew the chemistry and production process, they understood the best specific combination of 1) which type of carbon and AGM, at 2) the best place(es) in the battery and 3) manufactured in the best specific way.

     

    If they did that, they are golden.

     

    We really need to understand the patent coverage better. As I said, I think, we are about to dig deeper with more DD to really see what we've bought.
    20 Mar 2012, 09:46 PM Reply Like
  • anthlj
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    Axion patent coverage would be unusually broad to cover all other C additives. 9 times out of 10 there are work arounds, or a license is taken. Axion a pretty easy fly to swat in this respect I would have thought. But protection of PbC as we know it is likely fairly strong, thus preventing a direct or very similar copy. All tenuously concluded without even having glanced at their portfolio.
    20 Mar 2012, 09:59 PM Reply Like
  • eggwis
    , contributor
    Comments (769) | Send Message
     
    ant,

     

    I don't think Axion's patents cover C additives. IINM, their C related patents are for the process used to activate the carbon and to C in the anode.
    23 Mar 2012, 05:49 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4807) | Send Message
     
    >thotdoc ... I would think that getting a patent on a paste additive would be hard to do since the process has been a staple of battery manufacturing for a very, very long time. I can't speak to the material usage because I'm not that into batteries but specific formulas might be a patentable thing. I just don't know. Axion has a complete new apparatus (component) and not just something to push into the voids of what the whole industry already uses. And we are now beyond my pay grade for knowledge.
    20 Mar 2012, 10:04 PM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4084) | Send Message
     
    We, as a community, seem to have gotten rather quick at all hitting the Report Abuse button.

     

    I suppose this skill will be handy for game show tryouts, LOL.
    20 Mar 2012, 10:11 PM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    TRAIN WITH STOP-START

     

    http://bit.ly/GDcYui

     

    •Package 6. This includes the addition of a new stop/start lead-acid battery system; gas exchange system upgrade; and a new 30 kW lightweight diesel genset , e.g. for cabin air conditioning. Potential fuel economy benefit over baseline is 30% on the freight duty cycle.

     

    Overall, this technology package is the most attractive retrofitting solution for improving the efficiency of the GB rail fleet if applied to all 450 Class 66 freight locomotives. The payback period is less than 1 year, and it could save 89 million liters of diesel per year.
    20 Mar 2012, 10:11 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1885) | Send Message
     
    That is an interesting article. Ricardo needs to read this blog to get up to date with batteries.
    20 Mar 2012, 10:29 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4807) | Send Message
     
    >carlosgaviria ... Nice find. They discovered the Green Goat! This is exactly the reason I have been invested in Axion since 2007. Now, would someone please build the stupid thing already. It's only a 70 year old idea that has, admittedly, failed once but it was only once (well ... actually twice or 3 times if you count NS999 in 2008) but deserves another chance. This time with PbC batteries.
    20 Mar 2012, 10:23 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2112) | Send Message
     
    Hi guys,
    Just my 2 cents worth. Axion is a high potential technology penny stock. I mostly lurk here and sometimes comment for the social aspect with others that understand that small cap stocks are generally throw in the sock drawer and hope that someday they pay off. I like the technology and I respect the management, otherwise there is no reason to gamble on a penny stock. If you don't think that the management has the interest of the company and shareholders at heart then you really shouldn't have the stock and with small caps it isn't unusual to have to wait years for a return. If you are an anxious type of person then penny stocks and precious metals aren't for you. These are long term plays much like IBM was many years ago. I see no reason for vitriol, especially of a personal nature. If you don't like the stock or management then don't buy it. If you don't like these CCs then don't come here. If you have the stock and it is causing anxiety attacks, well, what is more important? Money or your health?
    21 Mar 2012, 01:29 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    Patience, judgment, fortitude, discernment, diligence...these are all aspects of maturity. And necessary qualities for successful investment in this kind of high-knowledge stock. So it should be perfectly obvious why it's so grossly unsuited to certain, uh, participants here. What amuses though is how they apparently just can't seem to find a more appropriate vessel for all their frothing passions...
    21 Mar 2012, 01:46 AM Reply Like
  • eggwis
    , contributor
    Comments (769) | Send Message
     
    4,

     

    It's the same old story. *Everyone* wants to be part of a winning team, but not everyone has the qualities necessary to play at that level.
    23 Mar 2012, 06:28 AM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (513) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » 8888888888888888888888888
    8888888888888888888888888

     

    New APC ready for abuse! :-))

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    8888888888888888888888888
    8888888888888888888888888
    21 Mar 2012, 04:10 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5705) | Send Message
     
    As to patents: I think JP stated that AXPW decided to patent the "best" technology when they decided how to patent it. I am sure paste would have been difficult to patent as said earlier it has been around awhile.
    I "assume" that AXPW PbC patents are valid, as no one has copied it yet and with all the other carbon batteries coming out, this would lead me to believe if they were not solid, then someone would already challenged them and copied the PbC.
    21 Mar 2012, 04:27 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5705) | Send Message
     
    * EVs to make up only 1.5 pct of US market in 2017-analyst
    * Henry Ford bought his wife electric cars
    * Obama wants to boost consumer EV subsidies by a third
    By Ben Klayman
    DETROIT, March 21 (Reuters) - Scott Kluth has a love-hate relationship with his new Fisker Karma luxury electric sedan.
    The 34-year-old car lover bought the plug-in hybrid electric Karma in December for $107,850, but five days later the car's battery died as he was driving in downtown Chicago. While the car he affectionately calls a "head turner" was fixed in a recall, Klut h remains uncertain how much he will drive it.
    "I just want a car that works," Kluth said. "It's a fun car to drive. It's just that I've lost confidence in it."
    The Karma's problems -- one vehicle died during testing by Consumer Reports this month -- f ollow bad publicity arising from a probe of General Motors Co's Chevrolet Volt and weak sales of the car, and the closure or bankruptcy of several electric vehicle-related start-ups.
    The unrelenting bad news has led to questions about the readiness of electric cars and raises fresh doubts about a technology that has around since the late 1890s but still struggling to win over the public.
    Whether electric vehicles can find an audience beyond policymakers in Washington and Hollywood celebrities depends on lowering vehicle prices wi thout selling cars at a loss, an alysts and industry executives say, whi le ext ending driving range to make the cars competitive with their gasoline-powered peers.
    "It's going to be a slow slog," said John O'Dell, senior green car editor a t industry research firm E dmunds.com. "Maybe there's too much expectation of more and quicker success than might realistically be expected of a brand new technology."
    He also questioned whether priorities will simply change for whomever is U.S. president after the November election. Electric v ehicles could lose tax breaks -- currently worth $7,500 a vehicle for buyers -- particularly if a Republican ends up in the White House.
    <^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^...

     

    http://bit.ly/GGy0ux
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^...
    Edmunds expects pure electric cars and plug-in hybrids to make up only 1.5 percent of the U.S. market in 2017, compared with 0.1 percent last year, and O'Dell said that may be optimistic. Consumers charge all-electric cars by plugging into an outlet, while hybrid versions include a gasoline engine.
    President Barack Obama's administration has been a strong proponent of e lectric vehicles l ike the Volt and set a goal of getting 1 million battery-powered vehicles on the road by 2015. Lux Research estimates that number will actually be fewer than 200,000. Both the Volt and Karma's development were supported by low-interest federal loans.
    That has not dissuaded automakers, many of which plan to launch electric vehicles to j oin the Volt and Nissan's all-electric Leaf in a bid to meet rising fuel efficiency standards. Toyota has begun selling a plug-in Prius, and EVs from Ford , Honda , BMW and Fiat will join the fray this year, along with cars from start-ups Tesla and Coda Automotive.
    HENRY FORD'S WIFE
    Electric cars aren't a new concept. Henry Ford bought his wife, Clara, at least two electric cars in the early 1900s offering at best 50 miles driving range and top speeds of about 35 miles per hour, according to the Henry Ford Museum.
    But analysts said automakers have not done a good enough job getting the costs down and explaining the technology to win over anyone beyond early adopters like actor Leonardo DiCaprio, pop idol Justin Bieber, comedian Jay Leno and former U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell.
    "You can do all the advertising and promotion you want, but if people don't buy into the message the needle's not going to move," said George Cook, a marketing professor at the University of Rochester's business school and a former Ford executive.
    The Volt, at almost $40,000 before federal subsidies, is seen as too expensive by many critics. Fiat-Chrysler Chief Executive Sergio Marchionne, a long-time EV skeptic, has said Chrysler will lose more than $10,000 on every battery-powered Fiat 500 it sells.
    And even with rising gasoline prices -- topping $4 a gallon in parts of the country -- EVs a re just n ot competitive, according to the Lundberg Survey. Gasoline prices would have to rise to $8.53 a gallon to make the Leaf competitive and hit $12.50 for a Volt to be worth it, base d on the cost of gasoline versus electricity, fuel efficiency and depreciation, the s urvey said.
    Obama's vision, which he laid out at a Daimler truck plant in North Carolina this month, includes a car battery that costs half the price of today's versions and can go up to 300 miles on a single charge. The industry is far from achieving that.
    Since last fall, there has been a run of bad news for EVs, starting with the late November news t hat U.S. safety regulators were investigating the Volt for possible battery fires.
    While the federal investigation was closed with the conclusion there was no defect and the car did not pose a greater risk of fire than gas-powered vehicles, weak demand led GM to halt production for five weeks and temporarily lay off 1,300 workers at the plant that builds the car. GM, which strengthened the structural protection of the Volt battery, has repeatedly said the car is safe, and some said t he safety probe should have never occurred.
    The Karma that died during testing by Consumer Reports magazine was another blow following a recall of more than 200 o f the cars la st year and the halting of sales in January for a software issue. Fis ker, which builds the Karma in Finland, also suspended work last month at its U.S. plant scheduled to make another car, the Nina sedan, whi le it works to renegotiate a $529 million loan from the U.S. Department of Energy.
    Fisker spokesman Roger Ormisher said problems can arise with new technologies and a new company but added Fisker had gone "beyond the call of duty" in instituting a system to respond to customer issues and had plenty of satisfied owners. CEO Tom LaSorda in a letter to Karma owners last week said Fisker was committed to giving customers "complete peace of mind" and he had created a "SWAT team" of 50 engineers and consultants to identify issues with the car.
    'FIRST LAW OF DISNEY'
    "The expectations have always been too high for electric cars," said Bill Reinert, Toyota's U.S. manager for advanced technology. "The realities have always been clouded by the dreams. I like to say it's the first law of thermodynamics versus the first law of Disney. Disney is wishing it w ill be so. It do esn't work." Toyota has always been skeptical EVs would quickly boost its share of the auto market.
    Meanwhile, several companies have struggled due to lack of funding or customer troubles.
    A123 Systems posted a wider-than-expected fourth-quarter loss this month after Fisker, one of its largest customers, cut battery orders. Bright Automotive, an Indiana electric commercial truck start-up, closed its doors in February after failing to get a federal loan.
    Ener1 Inc , which received a $118.5 million federal grant to make lithium-ion batteries for EVs, filed for bankruptcy in January, and Aptera Motors, a California-based EV start-up, went out of business last December after it couldn't raise $80 million in private funding.
    "There will be more companies that fail, but it's no different than Internet companies," said Kristen Helsel, vice president of EV solutions for AeroVironment , which makes EV charging stations for BMW, Mitsubishi and Nissan. "People with the right business model are going to do fine."
    A number of top national retail chains, including Kohl's and Walgreen , have begun installing charging stations at their stores, bu t critics say the U.S. push for electric cars has come before such infrastructure is in place, weakening the case for consumers to be attracted to the technology.
    But since the bankruptcy of Solyndra, a solar panel maker that received $535 million in U.S. loan guarantees, federal support for advanced vehicle technology programs has ground to a halt. Ind ustry officials and analysts point to tightened U.S. Department of Energy requirements in the face of withering criticism from Republicans about the Obama administration's generosity for anything related to green technology.
    "There was certainly a different energy level one year ago, even two years ago," said Oliver Hazimeh, sustainable transportation practice leader for PricewaterhouseCoopers. "This year, it just had a different drumbeat." Hazimeh sees long-term demand for EVs rising to up to 9 percent of the global market by 2022, but h e predicts there will be some setbacks along the way.
    Obama wants to increase the tax subsidies for buyers of electric vehicles to $10,000 per vehicle from the current $7,500. Bu t c ritics say the small EV sales totals tell the real story.
    Complicating matters, automakers continue to squeeze increased fuel efficiency out of the internal combustion engine. That makes it tougher to make EV sticker prices attractive enough to put a dent in the traditional gasoline-powered vehicles' domi nation of the market.
    The EV's industry's struggles have vindicated the more deliberate approach taken by Toyota, Ford and C hrysler's M archionne, who killed plans for a Chrysler electric car, analysts said.
    Still, proponents say electric-car sales will grow just like Toyota's hybrid Prius rose from about 5,500 in its U.S. debut in 2000 to a peak of more than 180,000 in 2007.
    Doug Parks, GM's chief Volt engineer, said the proof is in the large amounts of money automakers are spending on EV technology development.
    "Follow the money. People are investing huge in this stuff," h e said. " This is a 10- or 20-year discussion and we've been selling the Volt for a year."
    GM, which recently launched a new advertising campaign centered on testimonials by adoring Volt owners, has made the car the centerpiece of efforts to seize from Toyota the mantle as the world's greenest automaker. Meanwhile, Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn has estimated pure electric vehicles like the Leaf will make up 10 percent of industry global sales by 2020.
    Time will tell if that's wishful thinking.
    "It's been the Kool-Aid that the entire political system has been drinking for a decade," said Bob Martin, a senior consultant with auto product development firm The CarLab. "Electric cars are not ready for prime time. They're really interesting toys for very, very rich people."
    (Additional reporting by Braden Reddall in Benecia, California and Bernie Woodall in Geneva; Phil Wahba in New York; Editing by Edward Tobin, Martin Howell and Steve Orlofsky)
    ((benjamin.klayman@tho... 313-416-4075; Reuters Messaging: benjamin.klayman.thoms...
    Keywords: ELECTRICCARS/
    For Reuters Top News page click the following link:
    http://bit.ly/xSc0H9
    Copyright (C) Reuters 2012. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by caching, framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without t e prior written consent of Reuters.
    21 Mar 2012, 07:38 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30626) | Send Message
     
    It's a great article but you need to be careful about quoting the entire thing because it can create copyright problems for SA.
    21 Mar 2012, 09:32 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5705) | Send Message
     
    I know, but I can't copy a link off of brokerage acct. news.
    21 Mar 2012, 09:34 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    In my browser I've bookmarked some of the standard news/PR sources. When I see the source on my news reader, I hit the bookmark for that service. *Most* of the time it's already there, sometimes delayed.

     

    Then I can use that link.

     

    HardToLove
    21 Mar 2012, 09:39 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5705) | Send Message
     
    NEW CASTLE, Pa., March 21, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Axion Power International, Inc. (OTC Bulletin Board: AXPW), announced plans to release its fourth quarter and year-end 2011 results before market on Monday, April 2, 2012. The Company will hold a conference call that same day at 11:00 am ET. Interested parties should call 877-317-6789 (domestic) or 412-317-6789 (international), to access the call.
    WebcastTo listen to the conference call live via the Internet, visit the Investors section of the Company's website at http://bit.ly/nG6x1f.
    ReplayFor those unable to attend to the live webcast, it will be archived following the event for 90 days in the Investors section of the Company's website. An audio replay of the call will be available for one week and can be accessed by dialing 877-344-7529 (domestic) and 412-317-0088 (international) and using conference number 10011676.
    About Axion Power International, Inc.Axion has developed and patented a next generation energy storage device that won the prestigious Frost & Sullivan Technology Award for North America in the field of lead-acid batteries. According to Frost & Sullivan, Axion's new PbC batteries have "the potential to revitalize the lead-acid battery industry by breathing new life into an established technology that is not well suited to the requirements of important new applications like hybrid electric vehicles and renewable power."
    Axion Power International, Inc. is the industry leader in the field of lead-acid-carbon energy storage technologies. Axion believes this new battery technology is the only class of advanced battery that can be assembled on existing lead-acid battery production lines throughout the world utilizing Axion's proprietary carbon electrodes. Axion's future goal, after filling their plant's lead-carbon battery production capacity, is to become the leading supplier of carbon electrode assemblies for the global lead-acid battery industry.
    For more information, visit http://bit.ly/nG6x1f
    Contacts
    Axion Power International, Inc.Charles Trego, CFO ctrego@axionpower.com (724) 654-9300
    Allen & Caron IncRudy Barrio (Investors)r.barrio@al... 691-8087
    Len Hall (Media)len@allencaron.com (949) 474-4300
    SOURCE Axion Power International, Inc.

     

    News Provided by Acquire Media Corporation
    21 Mar 2012, 08:16 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (996) | Send Message
     
    fyi

     

    Pike Research Webinar - April 3, 2012

     

    Smart Transportation
    Where Are the Opportunities?
    Tuesday, April 3
    2:00 p.m. ET

     

    http://bit.ly/GF5By9
    21 Mar 2012, 05:55 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    Anybody besides me wonder if the AXPW CC on April 2 being the day before might provide some feed-in to the conference?

     

    Probably not, but if Pike listens in ...
    HardToLove
    22 Mar 2012, 04:39 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Did you register magounsq? appears like time well spent...
    21 Mar 2012, 08:00 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (996) | Send Message
     
    yes...
    21 Mar 2012, 11:14 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18504) | Send Message
     
    Did y'all miss the new concentrator was ready?

     

    http://bit.ly/GJznoM

     

    HardToLove
    22 Mar 2012, 04:43 AM Reply Like
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