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  • Axion Power Concentrator 102: May 17, 2012: Axion Power Reports First Quarter Results For 2012 208 comments
    May 17, 2012 3:40 PM | about stocks: AXPW

    These instablogs and the people who maintain them have no relationship whatsoever to Axion Power International. To our direct knowledge no person with a current relationship to Axion Power International other than being a shareholder participates in these instablogs.

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    Axion Power Reports First Quarter Results For 2012

    Risks of Owning Axion - A Discussion: by Futurist

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    Axion Power's Weighted Moving Average Price and Volume:

    (updated May 15th)

    (click to enlarge)

    Century Concentrator Comments -- 18,080 comments through 99 concentrators since July 21, 2011.

    (updated May 15th)

    (click to enlarge)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    LINKS to valuable Axion Power Research and websites:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites created by APC commentator Bangwhiz it is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one; including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Axion Power Website, the first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

    Axion Power Chart Tracking, HTL tracks AXPW's intra-day charting.

    Axion Power Q1 2012 Conference Call Questions, Set-up by Bangwhiz

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    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    WARNING: This is a troll free zone. We reserve the right to eliminate posts, or posters that are disruptive.

    Enjoy!

    Disclosure: I am long AXPW.

    Stocks: AXPW
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Comments (208)
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  • CoryM
    , contributor
    Comments (79) | Send Message
     
    Is it possible TG was more monotone this time because there was something imminent about to happen? Couldn't he get in hot water if he hinted at something, causing the stock to run before an announcement? It seems it would be best to be quiet. Although, saying a lot has happened in the past 6 weeks is enough of a hint for me.

     

    I bought below .35 today.
    17 May 2012, 04:09 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (3549) | Send Message
     
    It has been said that Axion management is aware of and follows the APC. It maybe that they have noticed the high expectations and all the guesswork here and decided that the best policy is to clam up. This APC represents a major clump of shares and a good management is concerned for shareholders. Can you imagine the pickle that this APC has the management in? It has become well read and can be Googled, it could be a marketers curse as well as a blessing.
    17 May 2012, 04:18 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1960) | Send Message
     
    If I ever had my words analyzed as much as TG's I would have far fewer words to say...ever. Someone asked about certain shareholders of Axion potentially not knowing about this site and I say their is no possible way. If you know how to spell Axion Power and have a computer, you know about this site. I wonder how many brokers have had their retail investors nagging them with, "what about this Axion battery company" The boxed response would be typical from a broker until they break on the twentieth different customer asking them about it.
    17 May 2012, 04:26 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    It's only a guess, but I believe the Axionistas as a group own close to half of Axion's outstanding shares. I've never seen a resource like this Concentrator series where a large number of stockholders share their thoughts on a regular basis and an even larger number read without sharing their thoughts. It may not be a perfectly representative view of what the public stockholders are thinking, but the insights one can gain simply by keeping up are amazing. I can pretty well guarantee that somebody is keeping their finger on the pulse of the Concentrators.
    17 May 2012, 04:32 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1425) | Send Message
     
    .Stilldazed,
    I was thinking the same thing the other day. There must be some real advantages and disadvantages to having "groupies". However, the bennys that rock and roll stars get from groupies just isn't happening. I'm thinking that management is probably wishing we were somewhat less ubiquitous.
    17 May 2012, 04:33 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (3549) | Send Message
     
    Metro,
    There you go using $2 words again. I had to look up ubiquitous. I also happen to agree.
    17 May 2012, 04:39 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13581) | Send Message
     
    He's just being obstreperous. We Axionistas would never waste $2 like that, why, that's 5 shares of AXPW!
    17 May 2012, 04:45 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2268) | Send Message
     
    Not just ubiquitous, but in the eyes of management, "gregarious, loquacious, voluble, perhaps even garrulous!" They might wish us more taciturn.
    17 May 2012, 04:50 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    And chatty to boot.
    17 May 2012, 04:53 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (3549) | Send Message
     
    TB,
    Roger the 5 shares! I guess you guys are trying to help improve my vocabulary (I had to look up obstreperous also). :-)
    17 May 2012, 04:53 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13581) | Send Message
     
    Loquacious.
    17 May 2012, 04:56 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2268) | Send Message
     
    Jeez, between us we just wasted 35 shares of AXPW.

     

    What were we thinking?
    17 May 2012, 05:00 PM Reply Like
  • pascquale
    , contributor
    Comments (143) | Send Message
     
    re: If you know how to spell Axion Power and have a computer, you know about this site.

     

    I just did a google search for AXPW and the concentrators did not show up in the first two pages...
    17 May 2012, 05:16 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1425) | Send Message
     
    ditto. had never heard of obstreperous.
    17 May 2012, 05:19 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (11197) | Send Message
     
    I know for a fact that several Axion leadership follow the APC series. They told me.

     

    I can only wonder what share prices would be if we Axionistas didn't exist.

     

    I also can guarantee that all Axion leadership have love/hate (or...maybe stop/start?) cogitations about the APCs...they hate reading stuff here that is grossly inaccurate, yet love our support as catfish buyers.

     

    ####

     

    Hoping that delicious milkshake saved me $500, if tomorrow I can scoop up another 25K for $8000, rather than $8500.
    17 May 2012, 05:20 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2268) | Send Message
     
    I just did a google search for "axion power" and the APC's were numbers 4,5, and 6 on the list.

     

    Axion's own corporate site is first, followed by the "turbostart.com" subsidiary of Axion, then by the Brand X site. Links to APC's #101, 100, and 99 were the next three on the hit list.
    17 May 2012, 05:22 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1960) | Send Message
     
    With Axion Power The third, fourth and fifth hit on mine I get concentrators 101, 100, 99.

     

    If you put in "AXPW" as with most ticker symbols you will just get advertising type stuff that recognize ticker symbols and assume you are ready to give money away.
    17 May 2012, 05:24 PM Reply Like
  • Poul Brandt
    , contributor
    Comments (254) | Send Message
     
    pascquale
    When I search for "Axion Power" I get the concentrator on line no. 4 and 5.
    17 May 2012, 05:26 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (11197) | Send Message
     
    I also think it behooves Axion management to track these Concentrators, because if some competitor pops up from "Lackistan," using an activated carbon cathode, they'll likely learn about it here sooner than elsewhere.
    17 May 2012, 05:27 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    It ranks right up there with obtuse. But with only two syllables, it's only 1.5 shares of (AXPW).

     

    HardToLove
    17 May 2012, 05:30 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    Maya, I think you had a typo there...I'm pretty sure it's "Whackistan"
    17 May 2012, 05:30 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (11197) | Send Message
     
    48: Excellent melioration!
    17 May 2012, 05:34 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13581) | Send Message
     
    You mean you pay for yours? I get mine for free ($2 words, that is).

     

    Part of my unlimited texting contract.
    17 May 2012, 05:36 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    86, Can't use that. It's the secret mission name for getting Osama and his officers in Pakistan. Shhhh.
    17 May 2012, 05:43 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (11197) | Send Message
     
    Maybe we should rename our APCs as: Jennifer Aniston Nude Concentrator

     

    We'd get a bazillion hits.
    17 May 2012, 05:49 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    No, believe that was dubbed "Operation Schwackistan"... the patches are out already. ;)
    17 May 2012, 05:53 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1345) | Send Message
     
    Pneumonoul tramicroscopic silicovolcanoconiosis - what those birds are going to get living in them Volt houses... non-recyclable!

     

    Edit: word was so long SA truncated it, had to add spaces.
    17 May 2012, 05:58 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    I wouldn't be able to "concentrate", except maybe I could still "Concentrate on 'er"!

     

    HardToLove
    17 May 2012, 06:02 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    If that was the one around Moldavia, It was "Whackamol(e)"!

     

    <ducks flying shoes>

     

    HardToLove
    17 May 2012, 06:04 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    And the winner is (envelope please) ... Mr. Tim Enright!

     

    HardToLove
    17 May 2012, 06:06 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1345) | Send Message
     
    I am sorry that I cannot accept the award. I cheated and the likelihood of using that word in a sentence, along with any word the others listed, in my remaining lifetime is next to none.

     

    I do, however, appreciate my moment in the sun...
    17 May 2012, 06:15 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Yep, SMC. Sheet Molded Composite. Same as the old Corvette bodies. It's a thermoset glass filled polymer so it will not melt again thus non recyclable (automotive term "fluff"). And the poor birds are gonna rub against the opening breaking off glass fibers and get....... err what you said.

     

    http://bit.ly/MpikgI
    17 May 2012, 06:27 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1345) | Send Message
     
    That's a lot of fluff. Read the whole article, nice piece on batteries - thanks...
    17 May 2012, 06:42 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1960) | Send Message
     
    You guys are killing me but Maya made me spend $2 on "melioration"
    17 May 2012, 07:45 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1778) | Send Message
     
    Free?? Ummm...last time I checked those contracts had a monthly fee?

     

    ;-)
    18 May 2012, 12:14 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1425) | Send Message
     
    I remember going to a meeting in the early 80's and having the person describe someone as gregarious and loquacious. Being dour and poker-faced, I wasn't sure if the speaker was being complimentary or insulting. I stared at his face for a long pregnant pause looking for a clue, but found none. Not wanting to show my ignorance - and asking what the words meant was just not in the air - I only grunted a noncommittal "Oh" as a response. The gentleman must have thought I was a rather odd duck. Went home and looked up the words and haven't forgotten them.
    18 May 2012, 01:04 AM Reply Like
  • Deamiter
    , contributor
    Comments (165) | Send Message
     
    SMaturin and jakurtz,

     

    Remember that Google serves up personalized results based on what you click on and all their other data (content of gmail emails etc...) I do think APCs show up in searches, but when looking at Google results objectively, it's important to do the search from a computer you've never logged into (or that has a new IP address) and from a browser from which you've cleared the cache and cookies.

     

    It's a pain in the butt, but it's important to remember that not everybody sees what you see on Google...
    18 May 2012, 09:39 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (957) | Send Message
     
    pasquale

     

    au contraire

     

    p. 1, 2, 4...amid several reputable news sites
    18 May 2012, 05:31 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (957) | Send Message
     
    deamiter...good point...how far google has evolved!
    18 May 2012, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (957) | Send Message
     
    SD

     

    "Axion management is aware of and follows the APC"
    I know posted before but interesting.
    You may have a point re expectations.

     

    But, if I were in AXPW's shoes, JP's articles, comments and the concentrators should provide a treasure trove of broad investor behavior, fascinating commenters' observations and insights to contrarian opinions...both technological and investor...competitor technologies, and some very wise and talented commenters/contributors.

     

    I would even consider contacting several after the "phoenix rises".

     

    Just sayin'
    18 May 2012, 07:15 PM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (791) | Send Message
     
    From 101:

     

    My thoughts:
    SS is an small niche, Grid Storage is a bigger niche ($113.5B).
    AXION PbC and the power cube for me works better in Grid Storage.
    And do not forget locomotives is a niche like SS and the mobil Power Cube works very well.
    Nothing is lost and much is gained
    Have a godd night.
    17 May 2012, 04:21 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Automotive Engineering article.

     

    "Rough road ahead for EV battery costs"

     

    http://bit.ly/KwJ9ip
    17 May 2012, 04:31 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2724) | Send Message
     
    Thanks iindelco.

     

    No "wide eyes, butterflies and blue skies" here. They get paid for producing usable predictions. The future isn't pretty for "anything-ion" EV batteries for many years out.

     

    Maybe the cheap fuel cell boys will have a breakthru in non-precious metal catalysts for hydrocarbon fuel cells. That would leave a big market for the "accelerate and regenerate" battery that buffers the energy flow to reduce the peak power needed from the fuel cell. Like a PbC ;-)
    18 May 2012, 07:52 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    I think April's CC was probably just a rare occasion where TG gave a bit more leash to his good spirits than is his norm. He maybe got just a little out over his skis, and then coupled with Vani's (premature?) spill at ESA about NS's purchase plans, I think a conscious decision was made for everyone to just dial it back a notch. That's what's worked for them all this time, and you don't want an-up-to-now very disciplined team going loose and squirrelly just as victory finally comes into view. Not when it's truly showtime. Not when you need everyone to stay focused and stay on their game and not overpromise or get ahead of themselves. They're closer now than ever for sure, but they still ain't there yet. And nothing's more tragic than a would-be winner choking right near the finish line. TG sure doesn't strike me as a choker. He's a closer.
    17 May 2012, 04:41 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    (AXPW):
    # Trds: 76, MinTrSz: 100, MaxTrSz: 60000, Vol 525836, AvTrSz: 6919
    Min. Pr: 0.3400, Max Pr: 0.3799, VW Avg. Trade Pr: 0.3538
    Buy:Sell 1:5.07

     

    10-day VWAP crossed below 50 today - what I suggested in my insta.

     

    I'd been thinking that $0.37 might support us as it was a fairly long-term low area 3/2-3/23.

     

    No joy.

     

    Volume fell off only marginally from yesterday, so I expect selling pressure will continue tomorrow.

     

    Last three days traded about 1.37M shares.

     

    ~23.96M shares traded Feb->to-date.

     

    Divided by two ...

     

    I'm guessing somebody new decided to exit and doesn't care about gains or losses.

     

    HardToLove
    17 May 2012, 04:49 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13581) | Send Message
     
    I'm guessing that someone old is still selling like they did last quarter...

     

    But its all just guessing. All we really know is that someone sold, and someone bought.
    17 May 2012, 04:58 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    I think we have a far better feel for the identity of the buyers than we do the identities of the sellers, but that's just fine by me because I think the buyers will be fabulous business partners until their investment goals are met.
    17 May 2012, 05:01 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    tripleblack, No mention of homes for us. I guess they figure we're already sheltered.

     

    http://cnet.co/JP9DZH
    17 May 2012, 05:39 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13581) | Send Message
     
    Cool. And yes, we have our own shelter built in.

     

    Of course, one does have to wonder at the obviously large supply of "old" Volt battery covers...

     

    Are they wearing out that fast? The Volt just went on sale last year...

     

    Neat shot of the screech owl. I have two large owls that nest in my backyard...
    17 May 2012, 05:48 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (3549) | Send Message
     
    The urge to make jokes about Batman and bat caves is almost overpowering.
    17 May 2012, 05:48 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    What do you get when you cross a bat with a Shitsu?

     

    HardToLove
    17 May 2012, 06:08 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    tripleblack, Your lucky regarding the owls. Not as many around as when I was younger. Now a rare sight. Don't know if it was the DDT or some other reason. Or maybe I'm just reflecting on a non statistically relevant data set.

     

    Stilldazed, The bat cave. I was gonna run with that but I just couldn't come up with anything quickly. It's gotta be there. Seems like the perfect set-up. And it's GM.....come on!
    17 May 2012, 06:14 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (11197) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: Now that's government subsidized housing at its finest.
    17 May 2012, 06:19 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Maya, You slowed me down on my JCI post. I started laughing so hard I couldn't hit the right keys.
    17 May 2012, 06:35 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (3105) | Send Message
     
    Why, oh why, do I think the cost of GM-modified bat shelters is ten times the cost of buying new bat shelters? And how much is the Federal subsidy?
    17 May 2012, 07:21 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    OK Rick. Since you've kept us running with this I investigated further with GM public relations. Seems they wouldn't authorize this use because they KNEW what a set-up it would be.

     

    Unfortunately it happened anyways because the guy that proposed it to his supervisor was on a noisy shop floor and thought he heard this as feedback to his request. "You've got bats if their cell free".
    17 May 2012, 07:43 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (3549) | Send Message
     
    Groan
    17 May 2012, 07:46 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (3549) | Send Message
     
    HTL,
    OK, I know I'm going to regret this, but what do you get?
    17 May 2012, 07:49 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    Bat$h*t.

     

    As a side note, caves are not the greatest place to park Batmobiles as that stuff gets all over the car. That's not a "chick magnet" by any stretch.

     

    HardToLove
    18 May 2012, 07:41 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (3549) | Send Message
     
    HTL,
    I knew it was going to be a groaner, just wasn't sure if it was a mother inlaw joke (wrinkled old bat) or the answer you gave. ;-)
    18 May 2012, 04:06 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    JCI study SS

     

    "Nearly all consumers are accepting of the fuel-saving technology that stops the engine at idle"

     

    http://bit.ly/JWdTrZ
    17 May 2012, 06:34 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    The most interesting part of the piece was:

     

    "The annual production of Start-Stop vehicles is expected to grow from 3 million today almost entirely in the European market, to 35 million globally by 2015. Start-Stop vehicles could achieve 40 percent of the new vehicle market in the United States in that same time frame."

     

    The most aggressive analysts reports suggest 39 million by 2017, but I suspect that JCI based their forecast on conversations with their customers. If that's the case, the numbers just keep coming bigger and faster.
    18 May 2012, 01:02 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    It's going to be interesting to see the first larger vehicles in the us with SS implemented in the mild hybrid category. Lot's more kinetic energy to harvest and the charge acceptance metric starts to become far more important.
    18 May 2012, 10:06 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    It's important to remember that "recuperative braking* in the context of a stop-start system simply means cranking the starter-generator up to maximum charge, so regardless of vehicle weight you're still only looking at a couple kw of charging power or ±170 Amps on a 12-volt system

     

    Without a bigger electric motor somewhere in the system (e.g. a 10-kw acceleration boost motor like you see in the LaCrosse) there isn't a component that can put out much more juice.
    18 May 2012, 10:17 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1962) | Send Message
     
    Completely OT, but stock story similar to AXPW.

     

    FCEL is a very late developmental stage Fuel Cell Manufacturer. They are very close to profitability, have a huge backlog of orders (on the order of $300,000,000) and very big partners. Very solid management. Due to 'stuff happens' the stock is under a dollar. They just sold 20,000,000 shares to a very large partner, POSCO, for $1.50. per share, which was over the market price of the stock at the time they sold it.

     

    Fuel cell manufacturers have developed niches; their niche (the Grid) has the greatest chance of spawning a very large company. Pls do you dd.
    17 May 2012, 07:20 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/KFqMqq

     

    A link from one of the previous links, but interesting discussion about one solution to maintaining AirConditioning during engine-off events in stop-start vehicles. It acknowledges the issues involved with trying to have the battery carry the load. To my mind, AC is one of the main drivers for our potential share in the SS market...
    17 May 2012, 07:32 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Thanks 86, I'd posted a couple af articles over on brand x when I was there. One was on the work Denso was doing in this area and the other was Delphi. I'm pretty sure all were working with various phase change materials.

     

    http://bit.ly/JPydtx
    17 May 2012, 07:51 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4788) | Send Message
     
    Great to learn about, 481'. Serves to highlight just how critical PbC pricing could turn out to be.

     

    Per the article, assuming their cost estimates are good, incremental cost of a S/S vehicle for beefed up starter and AGM battery (vs FLA) amount to ~$400 and thermal storage A./C unit "under $20".

     

    AGM batteries don't support sustained S/S operation and to achieve the mileage promise over a multi-month time frame something more is needed. It is not clear, though, that mileage/CO2 emissions testing standards are (will) address an extended time frame.

     

    Could well be wrong since I am not an engineer and have no automotive background beyond that needed for maintenance of my own vehicles, but it strikes me as likely that total ICE system adjustment costs to implement S/S system matter far more than the cost of the battery used for S/S along with serviceability of the integrated systems.

     

    S/S could prove a niche market for PbC.
    17 May 2012, 09:56 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    Do you think such solutions could be economic and effective enough to obviate the need for PbC in SS, perhaps to the extent that CP-AGM will be adequate? I'm basically of the mind, along with Tim E. (I believe) that eventually the sweet spot will be something like that special micro-hybrid we saw with the electric turbo/supercharger, electric A/C, regen braking, all probably running at closer to 48V than 12V...
    17 May 2012, 09:59 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (3105) | Send Message
     
    I think thermal storage (as opposed to electric driven compressors) is likely to be very attractive to auto manufacturers. How much this may impact PbC remains an engineering study.

     

    PbC may be extremely valuable for supercharging, especially during restarts and sudden acceleration. Supercharging, when used in conjunction with turbocharging, can significantly improve engine power and reduce pollutants. Traditional supercharging was not energy efficient as it needed direct engine power to run. Electric supercharging would greatly add combustion air when the engine is spinning slowly, e.g., at the beginning of acceleration. As the rpm increase the turbo, with its "free" energy from the exhaust, adds compression to maintain power. Once the car is to cruising speed, a high power alternator can recharge the PbC for another stop or further acceleration.

     

    Since most cars have (over) large engines only for short term acceleration, not cruising, engine size can be significantly reduced and still be peppy. Smaller engines are usually more efficient and burn less fuel.
    17 May 2012, 10:39 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Rick, complete alignment here...
    17 May 2012, 11:00 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4788) | Send Message
     
    Fascinating, Rick. For some reason the explanation of "supercharging" prompted memory of reading recently a one-liner in an automotive article about a German specialty automaker. The article suggested the firm reports an engine restart method using one cyclinder of a warmed up engine without using a starter. (I posted the observation to the newest APC at the time.)

     

    Must be "interesting times" for automotive product development management and engineering talent. Lots of potential moving targets in adjusting to new government driven mandates.
    17 May 2012, 11:20 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2724) | Send Message
     
    I was at an electronic power supply conference in the late 1970s and remember discussing ICEs with electromechanical valves and "combustion start" system with an older engineer. He explained that a cylinder in the proper position was fueled and then fired to spin the crank enough to start the engine. It doesn't take much energy if all the compression loads are removed by opening the exhaust valves until the engine is spinning.

     

    At the time, the idea was to shrink or eliminate the starter and downsize the battery. Saves noticeable weight and so improves mileage. It didn't catch on. Too complex and expensive at the time.

     

    So the idea isn't new at all; it just has a new reason to be :-)
    18 May 2012, 01:46 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    48: With premium sound systems going, running and/or headlights burning, brake lights lit, windshield wipers possibly running, in-cabin driver information centers with displays, ... I have a hard time imagining that removing just the large A/C load could be enough.

     

    Also, consider those "average" idle times? Where? Lots of major metro areas have longer idle times commonly. ISTM a margin of excess should be built in.

     

    It still doesn't address the degradation of the LA battery, although it would help extend the lifetime.

     

    Don't know, of course.

     

    HardToLove
    18 May 2012, 08:12 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2268) | Send Message
     
    '86,

     

    I have a hard time believing that the ability of phase change materials, such as the thermal wax system described in your link, could cycle faster and more efficiently than the PbC can accept charge. In my suburban commute, there are often times when a stop-go cycle to get through a busy intersection at rush hour may be thirty seconds or less of travel followed by 60 seconds of stop, repeatedly. I suspect the DCA of PbC can manage such intervals, but the description of the system in your link probably cannot refreeze the wax repeatedly in such a short time scale.

     

    I hope our engineers can shed more light on this issue. Like HTL, I think a larger margin of excess capacity would be needed in more systems than just the electrical storage. everything would need to be overengineered, instead of just the battery system.
    18 May 2012, 08:51 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4819) | Send Message
     
    >H.T. Love ... Without wandering out too far into the weeds, if your talking about electrifying a low voltage A/C system consider this. A V7 compressor (typical ICE) soaks up 9kW at full output - about 12 horsepower. Prius uses a 3-phase high voltage (w/inverter) motor driven Air Conditioning (A/C) compressor rated at 201.6 Volts @ 3.4kW.

     

    I'll leave it to the more knowledgeable to workout the practicality for battery load/size over time durations. A/C works out to be a huge load factor.
    18 May 2012, 09:52 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3219) | Send Message
     
    Nice idea, Rick.

     

    The potential uses of PbC keep growing and growing.
    18 May 2012, 10:48 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4788) | Send Message
     
    SHB > "At the time, the idea was to shrink or eliminate the starter and downsize the battery. Saves noticeable weight and so improves mileage. It didn't catch on. Too complex and expensive at the time.

     

    So the idea isn't new at all; it just has a new reason to be :-) "

     

    Thanks for the feedback. For some reason, it prompted memories of tuning my own vehicle engines until microprocssor-based ECMs took over and upped the required auto mechanic equipment ante. "Combustion starts" were well known to me in those days as "push" or "rolling starts" using downhill grades, muscle power, or another vehicle to "spin the crank." (Didn't own a vehicle with automatic transmission until the mid-80s.)
    18 May 2012, 04:35 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2724) | Send Message
     
    Smaller engines at boosted manifold pressure are actually more thermodynamically efficient, as well as more powerful per cc of displacement.

     

    I don't have enough information to solve the problem, but it might make weight sense to boost a smaller engine for acceleration power rather than hang 1-2 KWh worth of batteries and a 10-30hp electric motor on the rear axle. Which would be a cheaper way to increase acceleration? Not sure, but that specialty car recently demonstrated that used an electric supercharger to boost engine torque at low crank speed sure did seem to work.

     

    Losing the electric drive motor and controller and expensive 20kW power controller seems like a good thing. The extra energy storage needed to get the engine up to a speed where the turbo takes over the boost just can't require that much energy to run for 5-10 seconds. But the battery will need to be able to supply noticeable POWER during that time. 5kW?
    Sounds like a job for a PbC to me!
    18 May 2012, 08:07 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Probably posted before but worth running the energy storage calculations for those interested (worried) just for comparison.

     

    ELTON asymmetrical electrochemical capacitors

     

    http://www.elton-cap.com

     

    http://bit.ly/JAn3KL

     

    http://bit.ly/J4gVHS

     

    http://bit.ly/JAn1m3
    -----
    Da, It uses lead and it's better than ours.

     

    "The Russian Corporation of Nanotechnologies, a government agency, has proposed a $50 million minority partnership that would require Axion to move to Kaliningrad."

     

    http://bit.ly/J4gVHX
    17 May 2012, 08:56 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (11197) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: I have twice heard Thomas mention China (one time was a conversation just between he and myself); of how Axion could partner up with a Chinese battery maufacturer, who would use both Axion's cathode and electrode, which would be made in New Castle and could then be shipped to China, where the full battery would be built out.

     

    Very interesting about Russia's interest. I knew nothing of that.
    17 May 2012, 09:26 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4819) | Send Message
     
    >Mayscribe ... Don't forget the PbC was originally a Russian idea. I doubt they have forgotten.
    17 May 2012, 09:52 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    Thank goodness that was from 2010 and I think the necessity to consider a move is likely now off the table.

     

    HardToLove
    18 May 2012, 08:18 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    HTL, My reason for posting that again, along with the other tech., is that you know the Russians have all the data that existed on the technology at one point because it was developed there. Yet a state run organization was at one point willing to pay for the development that had happened subsequent to that time. And you know they have probably been working on it. So yes, as Kirk and JP have pointed out, the process is hard to duplicate.

     

    And if you run the calculations on what they have to offer with higher cost materials you know why they are interested.

     

    Just some food for thought.
    18 May 2012, 09:44 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Here is a linkedin site for a professionals interested in supercapacitors for anyone interested. Found it on Mr. Barbee's (NS) linkedin page.

     

    http://linkd.in/J4jABq

     

    Second link down on the site is of interest. Have not explored further yet.

     

    OK OK, I will not post any more today. But you must admit. The last two are far better than my bat post. Just ask Stilldazed.
    17 May 2012, 09:12 PM Reply Like
  • Johhny rambo
    , contributor
    Comments (127) | Send Message
     
    Interesting reminder from over 2 years ago

     

    The company must secure $26 million from the Department of Energy to proceed with the project, he said.

     

    Without the funding, Axion may have to look to other locations, possibly overseas. Already, government representatives from China, Russia and Germany have visited Axion to offer relocation incentives and try to persuade the company to move its facilities closer to emerging markets in Europe and Asia.

     

    The Russian Corporation of Nanotechnologies, a government agency, has proposed a $50 million minority partnership that would require Axion to move to Kaliningrad.

     

    “It would be very disruptive for us to try and move to a different country, but if we can’t meet the capacity, then we’d really miss the opportunity,” Granville said. “We are a public company, and we have to take care of our shareholders.”

     

    The company would like to remain in Lawrence County, Granville said, but the New Castle plant does not have the capacity to meet the rising demand.

     

    Just hope Tom remembers the "we need to take care of our shareholders" line.
    17 May 2012, 09:25 PM Reply Like
  • Tampa Ted
    , contributor
    Comments (2652) | Send Message
     
    That article seems out of character for TG.
    17 May 2012, 10:34 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    Stefan, unless it's a verbatim transcript or a recording (best), I find it's often hard to truly gauge how much is the interviewee and how much is the interviewer + editing... but yeah, didn't quite seem right... but of course this is from a couple of years ago...
    17 May 2012, 10:58 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2109) | Send Message
     
    OK, maybe I can shed some light on this topic of moving to Russia.

     

    These articles and discussion, if my memory serves correct, came at a time when all American Manufacturers were looking for Government expansion money. Axion had the interest from the Russians and TG spun it that Axion would follow the money. It was in the best interest of Shareholders to move to Russia if they were going to give us $50 Million. It wasn't to much later that the State of Pennsylvania funded the PowerCube. A military contract also appeared at that time along with the Federal Grant to Exide/Axion.

     

    Not sure of all the exact timing but when it happened it was pretty obvious a hole card that TG was playing. No one took the Russian thing very seriously.
    This total statement by me comes from memory only.
    18 May 2012, 08:12 AM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2240) | Send Message
     
    Most of this info came from a PA newspaper story and TG's remarks were quotes from questions posed by the newspaper. Might have been the Pittsburgh or Philadelphia papers. I remember reading the article.
    18 May 2012, 09:23 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    The back-rumor I heard at the time was that the impetus for the news stories came from a legislative aide in DC who's boss wanted to engage in a little political theatre.
    18 May 2012, 09:50 AM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2240) | Send Message
     
    Correct. Alan Spector, PA Senator since defeated, was pushing on DOE to help Axion. It all died with his defeat. He had help from the Philadelpha Inquirer.
    18 May 2012, 10:55 AM Reply Like
  • briancav
    , contributor
    Comments (8) | Send Message
     
    Another 8,500 shares today for the sock drawer...
    17 May 2012, 10:44 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4788) | Send Message
     
    Wonder if and, if so, how Viridity Energy and PowerCubes factor into the auctions mentioned in http://tinyurl.com/72m...

     

    "Residential electricity prices are expected to spike by more than 10 percent beginning in 2015, with consumers paying between $150 and $330 a year more than this year, as coal plants, the least expensive producers of electricity, continue to close.

     

    Analysts who follow electricity pricing will have a firmer idea Friday of how much consumers' bills will go up. It's the day the agency that manages the electric grid, known as the PJM Interconnection, will announce the results of an annual auction that reserves power three years in advance."
    17 May 2012, 11:52 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1425) | Send Message
     
    Don't remember if this particular conference has been posted where Axion is attending and presenting. Sorry if posted earlier. Enders Dickinson and others presenting at SAE on charge acceptance.

     

    http://bit.ly/Jc2zZx
    18 May 2012, 05:20 AM Reply Like
  • f-kru
    , contributor
    Comments (263) | Send Message
     
    Good find, Metro. I think the SAE is a very important platform for Axion. They got to keep going with Autos before the claims are pegged.
    18 May 2012, 07:31 AM Reply Like
  • amishelvis
    , contributor
    Comments (143) | Send Message
     
    Reading the news today, all about the FaceBook IPO, I find it interesting ,,,
    I like to ask the question,, What is it, and what does it do?
    I am a bit biased , but I think the hype should be on Axion, rather than facebook.. they really could be in each others place. I still have no clue about the FB business model, yet axpw's is clear as a bell, and potentially game changing etc etc.
    Thats my rant for today.
    18 May 2012, 08:59 AM Reply Like
  • jpau
    , contributor
    Comments (963) | Send Message
     
    Man, that was one ugly opening
    18 May 2012, 09:40 AM Reply Like
  • JohnM121
    , contributor
    Comments (501) | Send Message
     
    I made a small contribution to the opening. I'm not sorry though. It would be worse if there were no buyers. Some volatility may be good here. Even Axionista's can benefit by trading around a core position. Take the tax loss of a few old shares (sell at .45) and replacing with cheaper .35. 25% relative gain and tax loss. Personally, I haven't had the willpower to go for a month without buying, or the stomach to sell a single share.

     

    "Curse you IRS publication 550" -Homer Simpson
    18 May 2012, 10:44 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    GREAT ARTICLE IN NATIONAL DEFENSE

     

    While the DOE is telling fairy tales about likely progress in making far more powerful and far cheaper EV batteries the DOD has a different take on the same issue:

     

    http://bit.ly/KfQHm3

     

    It is fascinating.
    18 May 2012, 10:38 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Thanks John, That was interesting indeed.

     

    No word on the E-Cat though!
    18 May 2012, 02:29 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1425) | Send Message
     
    10:39 AM ET
    Volume 138,204
    Size 10,000
    Tick/Bid 0.3336
    (Pink Sheets)
    Bid Size 5,000
    Ask 0.338
    (Pink Sheets)
    Ask Size 15,428
    18 May 2012, 10:41 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3219) | Send Message
     
    Interesting selling behavior. The ask was just 36 cents for awhile, then a 34 cents sell order took it's place. The big gap down is either 'bail out' or undicsiplined behavior, it seems to me. 2 cents is a huge gap--why not .3599, .355 or even .35 (where the previous trades occured), instead? At least this 'run for the exits' trading has subsided, at least so far, today.
    18 May 2012, 11:04 AM Reply Like
  • CoryM
    , contributor
    Comments (79) | Send Message
     
    Seems like no one is going hit the ask until the person dumping stops selling at the bid. Or, until there is news. I say person dumping because I have to believe very, very few people would be selling at this volume below the offering price of .35.
    18 May 2012, 11:19 AM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (865) | Send Message
     
    If we look at the larger picture such as what's happening in Greece and Spain there might be some pressure on/by entities such as Blackrock to free up cash for redemptions or more likely to have powder ready for what may be a bargain basement opportunities in Europe.
    18 May 2012, 12:12 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3219) | Send Message
     
    Keeping with your bigger picture theme, unfortunately many of the sectors AXPW are in are out of favor--green, battery, industrial, small-cap. May not induce selling as much as it supresses buying.
    18 May 2012, 12:53 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4819) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... I'm at a loss. With statements like " ... more energy dense than in their natural state" and " ... provide 420 watt hours." with the caveat that "As scientists figure out how to cram more energy density into smaller packages, the batteries become more volatile." It may become more dangerous to gear up for battle than to face enemy fire.

     

    I think the DOE needs to figure out how to recharge a soldier via microwave induction.
    18 May 2012, 11:04 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Well you got the induction piece.

     

    http://bit.ly/KuQ6wx
    18 May 2012, 11:30 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    It's all a question of maximizing surface area in the anode and cathode materials. The characteristic that makes nanotubes and graphene so fascinating is that they maximize surface area. You simply can't do better than a single layer of atoms with two surfaces. The problem, of course, is cost. The military is unique among buyers because for them performance is everything and cost is almost an afterthought.

     

    When the military starts saying we've come to the end of the line in battery technology and starts focusing on portable fuel cells instead, you know the DOE is smoking hopium.
    18 May 2012, 11:37 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4819) | Send Message
     
    >iidelco ... Nice snippet. Most of the article didn't come through on my machine. Even so, it mentioned wireless recharge to every vehicle. That's nice but wireless recharge of small energy sources needs to be done for the grunts that don't get to ride. As I remember war is not done well from vehicles or even places that vehicles can go. I can only imagine what system might be employed. Airborne generators?
    18 May 2012, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    I've read articles where the clothing a soldier wears creates electricity through a piezoelectric effect when the soldier moves. This seems the best solution down the road.

     

    HardToLove
    18 May 2012, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4819) | Send Message
     
    >H.T.Love ... I can buy that if I knew how much movement was required (I remember my father's self-winding watch experience) and how well it stands up to week's worth of rips & tears, dirt, grime & water.
    18 May 2012, 11:58 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    When I was touring the University of Buffalo with my son the engineering college had a bunch of demonstration projects at the graduate level and one was for this purpose. They do a significant amount of DOD research and it showed in much of what they could even share.

     

    http://bit.ly/JSsjHS

     

    They also happened to mention this woman...well at least once.

     

    http://bit.ly/JndxvQ
    18 May 2012, 12:01 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    These work great for occasional use as was pointed out on another board.

     

    Although in a military situation I don't know if I want to be cranking my radio or doing jumping jacks to move my generator underwear.

     

    http://bit.ly/KghgHS
    18 May 2012, 12:46 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    DRich: IIRC, the plan was that normal movement would charge personal-sized batteries, keeping them always topped up.

     

    Of course, there was a lot of detail which I can't recall ATM, like battery types etc.

     

    HardToLove
    18 May 2012, 01:20 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    This might be it.

     

    http://bit.ly/KlyrWi
    18 May 2012, 01:30 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    That might be it!

     

    Thanks Iindelco!

     

    HardToLove
    18 May 2012, 02:11 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4788) | Send Message
     
    Also, IINM, induction charging falls some distance away from energy "efficient". Something has to be generating the power used to wirelessly charge all the soldier-worn gear. So much for reducing casualties due to fuel logististics.
    18 May 2012, 03:40 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    D-inv, Your absolutely right. Increase the gap between the power source and the unit to be charged and the efficiency degrades pretty rapidly.
    18 May 2012, 04:08 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (3549) | Send Message
     
    Too bad Tesla the inventor is dead. He was working on this about 100 years ago.
    18 May 2012, 04:39 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Maybe we can put in a bid, get HTL to fashion the group some tin foil hats, and hold annual meetings at his lab on Halloween night. Then we could get Harry Houdini to act as an intermediary between us and Mr. Tesla to come up with a solution modern physicists are overlooking.

     

    Or we could get him to finish his work on using magnetic fields to destroy buildings and sell it to the DOD. Humans seem to far too often value things that destroy vs create at a far greater multiple.

     

    http://nyti.ms/J3ov4h
    18 May 2012, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (3549) | Send Message
     
    I've been ordering tin foil hats by the case from HTL (good quality) and am sure your idea would work as long as the aliens left us alone. I could be wrong, but I think the building destroyer was operating on harmonic vibrations instead of electromagnetics (it did use electromagnets to operate the "metronome" that created the harmonic vibrations).
    18 May 2012, 06:35 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    Correctomundo. His biggest failure though was trying to demonstrate that on a big bridge, IIRC.

     

    I *suspect* the concept was sound but likely the technology of the day didn't allow proper identification of both the harmonic frequency and the amount of energy dissipated as the waves traveled the structure and its various components and joints.

     

    With today's technology he might well succeed.

     

    I mean, if we now have lab experiments which can apparently cause a photon to be in two places simultaneously, what Tesla tried should be duck soup.

     

    HardToLove
    18 May 2012, 06:49 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the correction Guys. Yep it was harmonic frequency as I recall now.

     

    As for the aliens. Mr. Obama just denied their existence to Will Smiths son in the situation room during a tour. He'd asked his dad a few times before hand to which his father replied "Do not ask that question.".

     

    So we should be good because the government only tells the truth. Fire up the foil hats.

     

    HTL, Maybe some ideas here for upscale options. Some "Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler of the Racoons" style add ons for our leadership.

     

    http://bit.ly/L5ICj5
    18 May 2012, 07:45 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    LoL! That was absolutely beautiful!

     

    Now, with all that power available atop the cap, we can add:
    1) Microwave snoop detector so we know when "they" are "listening" to our thoughts,
    2) A miniturized RR "Star Wars" defense system to blast the source of the snoop when detected,
    3) An "ink dispersal system" that puts out a dense black fog of microscopic carbon (of course) particles to prevent the satellites from tracking our escape from the venue.

     

    There's more, but then, paraphrasing Bullwinkle J. Moose, "I gotta get a bigger hat".

     

    HardToLove
    18 May 2012, 07:57 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2268) | Send Message
     
    Can I get mine with a "Powered by Axion" logo on the side?
    18 May 2012, 08:01 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    See SMaturin, I knew once HTL got a little extra power he'd have all kinds of creative ides for a real "Halo hat". Mr. Tesla's gonna be on the "line" in no time aliens or not. And just to make sure we don't lose him after we get him due to wind and solar lulls I'm sure a plug in port for PBC back-up power with a logo is a super adder.
    18 May 2012, 08:11 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2724) | Send Message
     
    HTL: Photons have ALWAYS been in more than one place at one time. Bur now-a-days we can catch them at it! Must be embarrassing for the poor photon ;-)
    18 May 2012, 08:14 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    "Portable fuel cells arrive: Will your next battery be a water fountain?"

     

    Power Pukk. :))

     

    Maybe they should make them activate with urine like the WW1 gas masks. Just in case.

     

    http://bit.ly/MrU3Xe
    18 May 2012, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    12:03:47 (AXPW)

     

    Vol 211,809, Av Tr SZ 4605, Buy:Sell 1:1.37
    Min. Pr: 0.331, Max Pr: 0.36, VW Avg. Trade Pr: 0.3405

     

    HardToLove
    18 May 2012, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • Johhny rambo
    , contributor
    Comments (127) | Send Message
     
    This information may or may not be accurate/pertinent, but I thought I should pass it on anyway.

     

    My older cousins wife is an army brat, become engineer, who has decided to stay in Germany after leaving the army

     

    She has recently become employed at Regensberg with BMW, and mentioned (by e mail) that they have a bunch of 1 series going through battery testing etc.

     

    Sorry can't be more useful, it may mean nothing, the casing is plain and not identifiable apparently, so could be axion inside or any other inside. Anyway the optimist in me remains hopeful.
    18 May 2012, 01:03 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    Good to know. Thanks.

     

    HardToLove
    18 May 2012, 01:04 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1960) | Send Message
     
    I wouldn't expect a European 1-series to be one of the first BMW's to equip the PbC, I have always assumed it would be a larger North american 5 or 7 series with the eco-pro mode etc. but really, who knows.
    18 May 2012, 01:11 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    This year in Geneva, BMW's 740i had the turntable in back but front and center as you entered the BMW pavilion the highlight car was their most fuel-efficient car ever, the 116d EfficientDynamics Edition with ECOPRO that boasts CO2 emissions of 99 grams per kilometer, or fuel economy of roughly 62 mpg.

     

    http://bit.ly/KpqTn1
    18 May 2012, 01:23 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2109) | Send Message
     
    Impossible to come up with a decent valuation of a development company.
    The price of any stock is equal to the actual cash values of assets + the income stream from any future profits.

     

    That future profits part is the one that makes us all look into the crystal ball and come up with a solution.

     

    In Axions case we have an existing battery plant, 35 Million I have read by other posters, patents ( 10 years exclusive for now) twice as much as any plant and probably more) 70 Million, present value of a 10% market share through 2017 equals $250,000,000. This make the company worth about $3.00 per share.

     

    But that all computes as to whether you believe in the product AND whether you believe more shares will be issued in 2012/2013.
    18 May 2012, 09:34 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2240) | Send Message
     
    Maybe we will get a clear consolidation pattern next week. I would think so, but overall market conditions (like a big sell off) could alter our mileage. I could live with .34-.36 for now. Chance of the bigger catfish snagging .33 if extra hungry.
    18 May 2012, 01:15 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1425) | Send Message
     
    I hope the bottom feeders starve; or at least have to move to the top of the pond for food. I would be content with not buying more, even at clearance sale prices.
    18 May 2012, 01:22 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1425) | Send Message
     
    although prices are making me salivate like Pavlov's dog.
    18 May 2012, 04:52 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1345) | Send Message
     
    From my perspective (novice) the action at/under .35 is the direct placement sellers who sold for a 20% gain at .40-.42 and are now closing or reducing their position. My speculation is that we stay in the .33-.35 range before we had back to .4x...
    18 May 2012, 01:47 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    Everybody and their brother raising cash for 1) Operation Iran-I-Schwack, and 2) Grexit?
    18 May 2012, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4819) | Send Message
     
    Just because I was asked by a professional trader I don't have any consensus, just my own guess. The question is:

     

    What is fair market value for Axion?

     

    I was stumped (sort of) because what he reads here is consumed by bottom feeding frenzy and star struck speculation. He sees value and might even book a small position. The company is worth more than the physical plant & what the balance sheet shows but he hasn't done an exhaustive analysis (but will) and he figures we (as a forum) haven't either or just don't care. It's a topic never mentioned. So I put to y'all. Any guesses?
    18 May 2012, 02:45 PM Reply Like
  • Poul Brandt
    , contributor
    Comments (254) | Send Message
     
    hmmm, here's a very quick thought:

     

    Sales in 2013: 132 mill (+300% pr year).
    P/S end 2013 should be 3 as the large potential will still not have been harvested i.e. Market Cap ultimo 2013: 396 million.
    Number of shares after next capital raise; lets say 135 mill.
    So price end 2013 should be 3$.

     

    What will we pay for that now?
    There is risk involved so let say less 50-75% for that.
    And end 2013 is still almost 2 years away, so lets divide by 2 again as we want to make money if we buy now and not in 2013.

     

    Fair market price is then: 0.375$-0.75$
    18 May 2012, 03:09 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1960) | Send Message
     
    I my article I wrote last year I talk about the worth of the plant from concentrator 30:

     

    "At their New Castle, PA plant, they have two traditional lead acid battery lines that can produce 2000 batteries a day. Running at only 80% capacity at $50/battery that is a potential revenue of $20M/Year. The same plant also has the capacity to produce 1000 AGM batteries at $120 each producing revenue of $24M at just 80% capacity. Running their current plant at 80% capacity would produce $44 Million a year in revenue and roughly $6.6M in gross profit. Their hard assets are equal to $13.3M. If you factor in their New Castle plant they bought for $700K on foreclosure that would easily account for the remaining shareholders equity of $17.5M (current Market cap at 30.8M minus 13.3M in hard assets).

     

    You may have noticed I have not mentioned any income thus far being derived from their proprietary PbC Battery technology that will potentially be a disruptive technology. It is no less than extraordinary that I just justified buying the company at the current market price on finances alone, and I did not even need to mention what the company is all about...the PbC battery, which holds extraordinary growth potential."

     

    http://bit.ly/KgSfMz

     

    Beyond that all you have to begin with some reasonable speculation. You can throw a value of $75M on the PbC and its patents but I bet the board at Axion would beg to differ. One would have to give the PbC at least a 5% market penetration into JCI's 35M S-S units by 2015; at $300/battery which would be 1.75M batteries you have $525M in revenue by 2015 just from S-S, never mind Locomotive and the PowerCube...I think you can see where I am going with this.

     

    Not sure if that is what you were looking for or not. Hope it is helpful.
    18 May 2012, 03:35 PM Reply Like
  • f-kru
    , contributor
    Comments (263) | Send Message
     
    Poul, I've come to the same conclusion multiple times - fair market value would be at least $250 mio. The current price is ridiculously low.
    With all the delays and long testing, it might feels like the company will never make it out of the R&D phase. But objectively this is not true - the Viridity / NS deals and Vani Dantam's hire are clear signs that they're on the path to commercialization.
    Now it remains to be seen how successful that is going to be.
    Maybe some Axionistas are too nervous to stay in or to keep buying. Or mabye Blackrock IS selling, we don't know. Patience is the hardest thing.
    18 May 2012, 03:44 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    For me the value is going to be derived from assumptions on the take up in the various targeted markets for PBC. Also these markets are not going to have the same margins. Automotive will be leaner than the rest. Automotive will send in value analysis teams and pay the margins they pay for AGM for that portion of the content and take a look at the carbon anode to help Axion determine where they need to progress to. Where they start and how they get to where they need to be will be negotiated with each company they support.

     

    As for the value of the battery plant. I might assign value for the AGM line as part of the PBC take up curve. Also there is some value in the collector car battery sales. For the value of the flooded sales I'd be hard pressed not to use Exide to function as a litmus test for the valuation of those assets/sales.

     

    All in all not too hard to do but we really have little clarity outside of rail on when and how they might move forward on the PBC side which is the lions share of perceived value in my opinion.

     

    One second. Let me throw the chicken bones one more time.
    18 May 2012, 03:56 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    If it's any help, Exide and JCI are spending something on the order to $100 million for each million batteries a year of AGM capacity. That would peg the value of Axion's AGM line in the $25 million range, less some discount for the reality that it's not as fully automated as a brand new line would be. If you go to the big battery manufacturers like JCI and Enersys, they trade at 50% to 70% of sales, so if I had to guess at a reasonable value for a plant that can build 500,000 flooded batteries a year at $60 each and 250,000 AGM batteries at $120 each, I'd probably land somewhere in the $30 million range.

     

    R&D valuation is a tough business because failures are worth nothing but successes are generally worth many times the total spending. At March 30th, cumulative R&D spending was $30.3 million if you ignore everything else on the income statement. While the PbC still hasn't proven itself completely, everything I've seen says it will. If you want to take a very conservative multiple of 3x cumulative spending, that takes you to $90 million. If you want to be a bit more aggressive and notice that the PbC is the first truly new battery technology platform to emerge since the launch of lithium-ion in the late '80s, a higher multiple would be easy to justify.

     

    By the time you include cash and relationships, I'd have a hard time justifying anything under $115 million and would be comfortable with a good deal more.
    18 May 2012, 04:37 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3219) | Send Message
     
    Lots of ways to value an asset. If someone can convince himself that there's good value at current stock prices, more power to 'em.

     

    If he can do a better job than us at valuing the PbC biz, we'd all love to see the plan.
    18 May 2012, 04:49 PM Reply Like
  • FocalPoint Analytics
    , contributor
    Comments (6282) | Send Message
     
    On Yahoo they list the Enterprise Value as of May 18th 2012 as 21.93M. Here is a link that talks about Enterprise Value. http://tinyurl.com/7gp....

     

    Divide the Enterprise value by the Float and you have one of many possible estimates for a low ball price per share valuation (.30).

     

    It's low ball because the Enterprise value does not include things like patents, on-going business relationships, and future business which should account for considerable value.

     

    But it does provide a baseline and a methodology onto which you can add the other valuations. For example, multiplying the current share price (.35) by the float and subtracting the Enterprise value gives you 3.7M. So that's one rough estimate of the near term hidden valuation.

     

    Alternatively, you could provide an estimate of the patients value, taking into account the protection time, divide that by the float, and add it to the Enterprise value price per share.

     

    John's 115M valuation includes cash, relationships and so on. That works out to something like $1.6 per share.

     

    So my guess is the near term valuation is somewhere between .30 and 1.6 per share. Both of these valuations, particularly my low ball valuation discounts the future business component. I would think the money people would discount patents, on-going business relationships, and future business possibilities.
    18 May 2012, 09:00 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    The problem with enterprise value is that it starts with market cap to determine value so you end up with a circular calculation.
    19 May 2012, 12:56 AM Reply Like
  • f-kru
    , contributor
    Comments (263) | Send Message
     
    @FocalPoint there are currently 113M shares outstanding. So a 115M valuation is pretty much $1 per share.
    19 May 2012, 04:01 AM Reply Like
  • FocalPoint Analytics
    , contributor
    Comments (6282) | Send Message
     
    Thanks f-knu. Using the 113M number of shares figure divided into the enterprise value of 23.9M as of May 19th, the lower point valuation goes to .19 per share and John's valuation does indeed become about $1 per share. Once again, I think using an enterprise valuation provides the lowest point on the valuation range.
    19 May 2012, 04:44 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3219) | Send Message
     
    Trading idea: I recently bought some "insurance" against my Axion position. Picked an index and bought some puts. Certainly not a great fit, but good enough for some offsetting, IMO. My thinking is that I'd hate to sell AXPW outright way the heck down here, but I've certainly noticed the downdraft in the overall mkt and think there's a good chance it continues.

     

    I picked SPY as the index, for ease of use and liquidity as much as anything. You can probably come up with some more highly-correlated index that has put options, I just haven't had the time to more finely tune the approach, yet, anyway.
    18 May 2012, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1425) | Send Message
     
    DRich,
    I think that the fair value of Axion would only come into play if either the PbC failed completely and Axion folded, at which case I think FPA's $.19 per share may be about right, or if Axion was bought by another company where John's valuation of $1 per share would be somewhere in the ballpark. However, my money is not resting on either of these scenarios.

     

    A fair share price from a shareholder perspective will be driven by what are currently unknown future revenues and profits. Being a highly speculative stock, I can definitively state, without hesitation and with all degree of certainty that the fair value of Axion shares now and one year from now are ? and will be ?. There are just too many variables and we just have no knowledge of the value of PbC revenue flows in the pipeline for even the next month.
    19 May 2012, 07:02 AM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1285) | Send Message
     
    it's crazy that we can get in for under 35 cents. but the stock market has always been crazy...
    18 May 2012, 05:06 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1425) | Send Message
     
    Tragic,
    Are you considering a trading bloc, or sitting pat?
    18 May 2012, 05:25 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1285) | Send Message
     
    can't buy yet.
    19 May 2012, 02:59 AM Reply Like
  • Treehill
    , contributor
    Comments (147) | Send Message
     
    As some auto makers are already introducing stop-start, I was expecting that sometime next year there would be an increasing number of car owners (or their auto dealers/mechanics) looking for a replacement battery that would deliver on what was promised. Not being mechanically minded (my degrees are in philosophy and business), I simplistically assumed that all the owners of such cars would need to do would be to buy an Axion battery and stick it into their car and everything would be wonderful. However JP refers in a recent post to the fact that the PbC is not very good as a drop-in replacement.

     

    So this raises the question, what would be needed so that the Axion battery could be made available to meet the needs of such car owners? Would it be possible to design some form of conversion kit that could be sold to owners or dealers, allowing the Axion battery to be used in cars that weren’t originally sold with that battery?
    18 May 2012, 05:34 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    You know, I wonder, what if one were to simply drop in a (nominal) 16V PbC, but one that was only charged to ~12V, ie at PSOC?.... I'm starting to think that it just might work out fine without any modifications... as long as the VR never charges it above say 14V, it's hard to see how the car would really know the difference...
    18 May 2012, 05:49 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    86, No I think it would be a problem. Too much energy decay if you don't use your car all the time. In addition you'd need the right voltage regulation to support the functions over the added variation on the output of the battery. Also a new voltage regulator.

     

    All in all it's really not what you want to do from a technology standpoint. And then when you look at the cost side as JP has pointed out numerous times it doesn't make much sense.

     

    Remember the PBC proposal is a two battery system.
    18 May 2012, 05:56 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    (AXPW): EOD 5/18/12
    # Trds: 73, Vol 354724, MinTrSz: 150, MaxTrSz: 29987, AvTrSz: 4859
    Min. Pr: 0.3310, Max Pr: 0.3600, VW Avg. Trade Pr: 0.3418
    Buy:Sell 1:1.44

     

    Notable today is that we not only closed higher than the open (first time since 5/4), but we closed flat from yesterday's close.

     

    Our range was also reduced, as compared to the last three days and volume was also down again as we also traded a lower and tighter range today. This is a common trait of nearing the bottom of the down trend. It's been accompanied by a "rounding" volume pattern over these four days, also a good sign.

     

    In my intra-day stats blog this morning I posted "I think another down day is in store. However, it's common for big moves in either direction to abate after three days and a pause or reversal beginning a reversion to the mean is quite common".

     

    I *believe* today's action supports the beginning of that process.

     

    I also mentioned that $0.35 might be a support, although I felt it was weak. Both conclusions seem supported by today's action as we penetrated well below the $0.35 level. I *am* encouraged that we both came back relatively early in the day, hitting $0.35 for the first time in the day at 10:42, *and* closed there.

     

    The weakness I expected did appear early and reappeared off and on throughout the day. I mentioned that a trend line might offer support, which it apparently did. I also said "But with the volume and price action being what they are, I think we at least penetrate this level before any bounce occurs. To overshoot such a line by a penny or two is not unusual at all".

     

    The stronger support level, as mentioned in the blog, seemed in the $0.30-$0.31 range. But considering everything, I wasn't sure we'd see those levels.

     

    In the hope that our "bottom feeder" friends didn't starve today, I said "If you really want to add and have a better chance of filling, I suggest $0.33 is a price likely to be seen".

     

    I hope that many took advantage of the prices in the $0.33xx area as I *suspect* they may not be revisited soon, if ever.

     

    I've not looked a today's short sales yet, but the conventional TA stuff seems to support this. Oversold in the RSI, MFI, Williams %R and stochastic (just barely). However, it *is* very early in the process and supporting oscillators have not yet flipped to suggest an end of down trend is confirmed. Only the Williams %R is so far starting to show recovery towards a bullish (well, really "neutral") attitude. That's not enough to hang anybody's hat on.

     

    So if your strategy is looking to enter at or near an uptrend being established, I would suggest waiting a bit and let the action come to you.

     

    Looking at my intra-day statistics chart, we do have an early indication, based on past patterns, that a turn may be coming. This is the VWAP and intra-day highs and lows being *very* close to each other (highs and lows in this configuration are a typical sign of "consolidation", especially when supported by volume action) in a down trend.

     

    This seems to start a *somewhat* "flat" price trend. When the average trade size gets low and then starts to increase, it looks like there's a tendency for price change, in either direction.

     

    This change in average trade size seems to *lead* price action (*not* in direction, just in occurrence). But with limited time tracking this stuff, I can't offer an estimate of its reliability yet.

     

    Right now average trade size *has* come out of the abnormally recent high range but is still in the upper range of the sizes, as compared to a few weeks back. With so little time in the charts I can't determine if it's a relative change or the absolute values that matter. My guess is that average trade size will continue to decrease as we consolidate and a pending change *may* be indicated by action in the average trade size.

     

    Been wrong before, will be wrong again, am experimental in nature and still learning.

     

    HardToLove
    18 May 2012, 06:11 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the technical feedback HTL. It's always greatly appreciated.
    18 May 2012, 07:19 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1285) | Send Message
     
    ::puts on tin foil hat:: i think any large bids near 31 cents would get the MM to push the price to us... err 31 cents.
    19 May 2012, 09:40 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    I think they'd have to be darned large, as in six figure blocks, but you may be right. It's very hard to tell where the selling is coming from right now and with as much accumulation as we've had over the last couple years, even long ball hitters can get tired of waiting. I hate to see it but I do understand it.
    19 May 2012, 09:57 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    Tragicslip: I *suspect* that if JP is right about both the buyers of the Feb issue who are/were "flippers" being near exhausted and shares flowing to stronger hands, the MM would have a tough time doing that.

     

    IIRC he believed 20%-30% of them "flipping" is the normal range. Since the share issue announced in February 20.431M shares have traded. Divided by 2 = 10.215M shares traded Feb-May to-date.

     

    Per the Axion announcement, 28,571,429 shares were issued. Even allowing for some retail types dumping subsequent to the CC, 2.28M traded this week, and some miscellaneous trading during the months prior, ISTM that the "flippers" must be near exhausted. We saw evidence of their exit during the extended period trading at and above the $0.42 area. Check the average trade size 5/7 onward in the chart in my instablog. I *believe* the combination of trade size and price action supports (near) exhaustion of larger sellers at these price levels.

     

    There could (have been?) be a few stragglers exiting at a near-loss, but I think they must be near exhausted also. The falling average trade size suggests this.

     

    For the market-makers to benefit from moving the price lower, they need to be able to see sell orders that they can buy for that price or less. *If* flippers are (near?) exhausted *and* shares have flowed to stronger hands, that scenario can not easily develop.

     

    ISTM only a higher price can entice the stronger hands and those remaining from the issuance to release into the market.

     

    Prognosis: lower prices at volume unlikely, IMO. On very light volume with very small average trade sizes, certainly could happen.

     

    One caveat: the effect of the current market "correction" and economic outlook. Unknown larger sellers (Black Rock and Manatuck?) could be lightening up as part of an overall portfolio strategy (mentioned by others previously). But how much effect this would have on a micro-cap stock is not known by me.

     

    Been wrong before though,
    HardToLove
    19 May 2012, 10:19 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    The most fascinating aspect of the developing supply and demand dynamic is that even if we assume the remaining big holders want to exit completely, the selling pressure can't last through September.

     

    By my count, Blackrock, Manatuck and Quercus collectively hold 13.8 million shares. There are 95 trading days between now and the end of September. The 200-day moving average volume is ±332,000 shares, which means we can expect 31.5 million shares of volume over the next four and a half months.

     

    In the first 4-1/2 months of the year we had 36.3 million shares trade, which represents 18.1 million shares of selling and 18.1 million shares of buying. Even if you adjust for modest sales of stock by tired retail investors, the supply and demand imbalance has to correct itself. I don't know when it will happen, but I know that it must happen because the market price is always determined by the minimum price stockholders are willing to sell for.
    19 May 2012, 10:47 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    And we gotta think stockholders will be less willing to sell if/when more good news piles up. NS can't intend to buy just one locomotive. They didn't do this for fun. Unless the PbC now falls flat on its face with them (which after all this testing and time and data just doesn't seem possible) they *are* going to build more trains. As someone once infamously said, "That was the point". So we should see another order from them, even if it's just the OTR, within the year I would think. To me the company's future seems brighter than ever. I just can't see bailing out here.
    19 May 2012, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • f-kru
    , contributor
    Comments (263) | Send Message
     
    '86 - I doubt that it matters for Quercus, Blackrock et al how good the news are and how much progress is made. The decisions they make are not based on Axion's performance or it's potential. Take Quercus for example - they have to liquidate because they need liquidity because 2008 hit them hard.
    However, good news makes a difference on the demand side of things. In my opinion things will only change slowly until we see an uplisting to NASDAQ or AMEX.
    19 May 2012, 03:58 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    In my experience market conditions change dramatically when the supply and demand balance changes. That's how good things happen to stock prices and how small companies graduate to NASDAQ or AMEX without a reverse split.

     

    I've written a couple of Instablogs on what happened with former clients who suffered from the same problem. While their times of trouble didn't last as long as Axion's has, the same mechanics were at work.

     

    http://bit.ly/uzNPG2
    http://bit.ly/xHrjyl

     

    In both cases there were no substantive business developments that caused the price spike. Instead, they both simply worked their way through the excess supply and then the price moved up to reflect substantive developments while supply and demand were out of balance.

     

    It could be completely different with Axion, but my experience tells me that it won't be.
    19 May 2012, 04:12 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1425) | Send Message
     
    Although I wouldn't like to see the share price drop much more, if only for my morale, I'm more concerned about volume over the coming months.
    19 May 2012, 05:09 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30629) | Send Message
     
    That's why I keep close track of the 200-day average volume – the red line in my tracking graph thats been ramping slowly and steadily for the last three years. The 10-day volume can bounce up and down like a ping pong ball as long as the 200-day keeps climbing. That particular trend line shows no signs of reversing itself.
    19 May 2012, 05:40 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    iindelco, I've held your same conclusion for a while, and it is certainly valid (the two battery system being optimal) for new designs, but still I do think it might be worth revisiting the question for retrofits for existing, or near term, SS vehicles, which, as far as we know nearly all use a single 12V AGM or Enhanced Flooded right now... apart from the self-discharge issue (which may or may not be severe enough to matter, we just don't know at this point) I don't know that the voltage variation we're talking about would matter all that much.. as JP says, we're only talking around 3600 Amp-secs per engine off event, and a consistently high charge acceptance and thus quick recovery following. How much does the output voltage really travel down the discharge curve when we're only extracting 1Ah of energy? We don't know for sure, but can't be that much.. half a volt at the extreme outside I would think.. which should certainly still support ancillary functions.. I think the VR is really the only question... they're normally set to stop charging at ~14V anyway right? The PbC would be just fine with that. Again, I know we've dismissed this idea in the past, for seemingly sensible reasons, but I'm starting to think that just perhaps it's not quite the bridge too far or pointless exercise that we've thought it to be. Particularly if a big aftermarket of dissatisfied SS vehicle owners *were* to develop.... maybe the self-discharge really is a show stopper (and I suspect this is the true driver behind the two battery preference) but maybe that's an acceptable tradeoff...maybe a new VR will be required, maybe it's just too hard, or not worth it, but then again, depending on the car, the frequency of replacement, and the cost of a new AGM, maybe not....

     

    Merely a reexamination of a mildly intriguing question. Beats just staring at 35cents.. ;)
    18 May 2012, 06:33 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    48: I believe we'd also need an alternator with higher capacity. Remember that we have a much higher charge acceptance rate and we have limited time in which to recover the desired state of charge.

     

    Heavier cables needed too to allow maximum amperage flow? I don't know, just thinking.

     

    Control electronics also monitor all this stuff these days. A reprogrammed chip (or EEPROM reprogrammed) seems a likely need too.

     

    Ha! I was about to mention idle speed adjustment, but we don't need no stinkin' idle speed anymore do we?

     

    A larger alternator might require "tuning" of the fuel and ignition systems since we'd be putting a larger load on the engine during a fast charge sequence.

     

    I might be way off, but I think some of those things apply.

     

    HardToLove
    18 May 2012, 07:03 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    86, Remember that in order to support such an effort you have to support all the less frequent harsher situations that are outside of the more ordinary metrics you are pointing out. Maybe you can get away with indicating in the aftermarket that the vehicle will no longer function if one parks the vehicle for over xy days at a certain temperature or below. However there are also other unusually more abusive events as well. Maybe since you will need to replace the BMS which is probably part of the vehicle ECM and the voltage regulator you could come up with something. Can you do it on your own and make it worth it? Probably not. Will the OEMs support it (Hey our battery we sold you was a piece of junk so.). Well we know what Honda said when Axion asked for input on their hybrid code. Nah nah nah. I just don't see it with the costs, lack of support and liability issues. It's one thing to do it as a hobbyist and a far different thing to do it as a corporate entity. It's going to have to be as good or better in all areas that are not well understood by Axion. Think about how long BMW has been testing PBC.

     

    I'd like to see it work out but think it's a long shot. Axion's already got lots of those where they are closer to fruit. Not sure this one would be resource wise.

     

    I'm not a fan of 0.3xxx cents myself.
    18 May 2012, 07:07 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1345) | Send Message
     
    I don't see a VR problem with existing electronics. The problem that I see is the steep voltage curve downward. Granted you would be able to use between 14.4-12 volts with a 16v PbC compared to a 12.9-12v range with a 12v AGM but I just don't think its enough (or so I have been told, repeatedly)...

     

    However, I would be one who would have to give it a try <smile>
    18 May 2012, 07:18 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    iindelco, and all, thanks for the thoughtful responses...and yeah, you're probably right. The airport parking lot test is always going to be a dealbreaker if failed. Perhaps the PbC's self-discharge may be something that can be successfully attacked and improved upon at some future time. Or maybe it's just an essential nature of the beast and can never be engineered out. In the meantime TG and company have a lot of good to do in a lot of places with the device just as it is right now, and so on this question I respectfully stand down... ;)
    18 May 2012, 07:44 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    You're right Tim. The higher voltage PBC would give more operational range than the 12Vdc unit.

     

    As an individual you have far more freedom to make it work for what matters to you than a corporate entity. Last time I looked we still have some freedoms. Hey if you want you can put enough in the black box to use voltage levels far below 12Vdc. Sometimes with individual goals it's more about the bragging rights.
    18 May 2012, 07:53 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    86, Never stop looking. As TG indicated, just before the standard silence, they have some other entities looking at the PBC we don't know about yet. Markets are most often fought for because the current owners never give them up without a fight.
    18 May 2012, 07:59 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: I don't think he'd consider you rude if you used his first name, "48", instead of his last, "86"! :-))

     

    HardToLove
    18 May 2012, 08:01 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4788) | Send Message
     
    :-) 481', interesting speculations that I share interest in. But, I'm thinking the first problem one would encounter and need to overcome in dropping a PbC battery of any voltage into an existing automotive system is getting one's hands on a PbC battery. Can't buy them now. No known plans to market them in the aftermarket. Existing production capacity will be dedicated to OEMs so it is unlikely anything will be available in "aftermarkets" for some time.
    18 May 2012, 08:10 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    Too, too true. But ...someday surely they'll be out in the wild. And hobbyists will undoubtedly tinker and come up with new fun things to do with them...
    18 May 2012, 08:27 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1345) | Send Message
     
    HTL, but 86 is his first name when it comes to numbers <smile>
    18 May 2012, 08:36 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2724) | Send Message
     
    I want to build a coil gun using the high power from the "capacitor" behavior of the PbC! Maybe 2kA for 200ms from a 32V pair?

     

    "Do not stand in front of the solenoid coil." :-)
    18 May 2012, 08:38 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    I wasn't going to go there myself, but glad someone did... ;)

     

    ps: I'm thinking cans of diet coke would make superb projectiles. 1) noone would want to get that stuff on them and 2) no good for anything else
    18 May 2012, 08:51 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (3549) | Send Message
     
    Wasn't 86 the guy that was in mailboxes and desks in "Get Smart"?
    18 May 2012, 08:55 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    That was only a rumor. There's nothing to it.
    18 May 2012, 08:58 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1345) | Send Message
     
    I think 86 was Maxwell himself...
    18 May 2012, 09:06 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    Noone really knows. ...Or needs to---right? :)
    18 May 2012, 09:09 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (3549) | Send Message
     
    Tim,
    Your right.
    http://bit.ly/KmsM24
    18 May 2012, 09:20 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1345) | Send Message
     
    Hey I like the mailbox/desk drawer guy! okay by me...
    18 May 2012, 09:24 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Oops. How rude of me. ( Places IOU 1 star on Chinese knock off practice tin foil cap. ).

     

    From Wiki, "Maxwell Smart, code number Agent 86..."

     

    I thought Smart applied but a trip to Miss. Manners still applies because I should have applied Mr. in front.

     

    Thanks for correcting my I'll Address Mr. Love.
    18 May 2012, 09:32 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1345) | Send Message
     
    SD. Thanks for the link - I needed that. Classic Smart to cut the string by shooting it in half (killing agents not shown)...
    18 May 2012, 09:35 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (3105) | Send Message
     
    I seriously doubt a car manufacturer would recommend a PbC over their OEM-speced AGM battery for retrofit. The charging cycle is different, requiring a much higher voltage (probably c. 17 volts to charge it to 16 v); charging at only 14 v would dramatically reduce the power delivered to battery. Less power means longer charging times. AGM batteries have a distinct, 3 (or 4)-stage non-linear charging cycle. No information has been released on the details of the PbC charging cycle, but I would expect it be different than traditional AGMs. A PbC contains about half the energy of a AGM, so that plus not charging to the full 16 v would significantly impact whr capacity.

     

    Further, there is no advantage to the car manufacturer to spend engineering and testing time to certify the new battery type. Their current supplier, who presumably underwent "testing anxiety" while their AGM was tested, is going to resist efforts that take ways the business.

     

    I am sure some hobbyists may try PbC; that is very different than the manufacturer recommending it.
    19 May 2012, 10:11 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    http://www.magneform.com

     

    Or magneflight?
    19 May 2012, 10:39 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Can't read anything into it but since I bumped into it.

     

    Axion has several openings for laborers.

     

    http://bit.ly/Jpg8oU
    18 May 2012, 11:44 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    Hard to read that as anything but a moderately positive sign---Company gearing up to be able to flex for more capacity down the road...
    19 May 2012, 12:26 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1425) | Send Message
     
    Nice find. Your right iindelco, could be lots of reasons. Maybe just replacing workers who have left, but agree with 86-san it appears to be moderately positive.
    19 May 2012, 02:39 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1345) | Send Message
     
    I appreciate that they are hiring full time employees instead of the part time stunt that some employers use to cover the peaks. Also, they are advertising overtime and weekend work. Looks like a busy summer for the folks in New Castle to me...
    19 May 2012, 12:15 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (865) | Send Message
     
    Fingers crossed!
    19 May 2012, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4788) | Send Message
     
    iind' > "Axion has several openings for laborers.

     

    http://bit.ly/Jpg8oU"

     

    I see that as a positive. Note the date of posting as Monday 5/14/12, first day of a new work week and one day before the Tuesday 5/15 web conference. TG responded to Stefan's (?) question re-employee count as same as end-year (90).

     

    Seems to me one can reasonably infer the level of manufacturing is stable or rising. Stable if new hires are sought to replace departing employees and rising if no current employees are departing. Inclusion of reference to weekend and overtime hours tends to tilt the calculus toward expansion of output over maintenance of effort.
    19 May 2012, 02:46 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3219) | Send Message
     
    I especially like the last two parts:

     

    "Daylight with overtime/weekend work"

     

    Oops, should have refreshed the blog screen, but it takes soooo darn long when there are a lot of posts...see that there's anew Concentrator now. Thanks, APH.
    20 May 2012, 02:38 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1960) | Send Message
     
    Poul, I think you were talking about this not too long ago. Of course, coming from Reuters we get the most rosy picture imaginable i.e. everyone just loves being in competition with each other on who generates less carbon. Care to add anything to the article from first hand experience?

     

    "Denmark aims low with green energy policy" from Reuters.

     

    http://reut.rs/JFCTnv
    19 May 2012, 07:56 AM Reply Like
  • alsobirdman
    , contributor
    Comments (433) | Send Message
     
    Woke up this AM to an article in my local paper about the BMW 3-series. The reviewer noted that his test car came with auto-tops feature. He it worked poorly in the auto-trans car, a little better in the manual but didn't feel the average driver would bother using it.
    Hopefully his frustrations will be cured by the PbC. I tried finding the article on-line to post a link. The reviewer is Mark Phelan from the Detroit free press.

     

    BTW, added some @ .338 yesterday.
    19 May 2012, 09:31 AM Reply Like
  • alsobirdman
    , contributor
    Comments (433) | Send Message
     
    Ooops. I found the link. If this doesn't work here is what he said;

     

    http://on.freep.com/L2...

     

    The 3-series has an auto-stop feature that shuts the engine off when the vehicle sits idling. It worked poorly with the automatic transmission in a 528i sedan I tested recently.

     

    It's a bit better with a manual, but only operates when you shift into neutral and release the clutch. That process masks some of the system's flaws.

     

    It's also inconvenient enough that I doubt many drivers will use the feature much.

     

    Stop-start can be responsible for 3%-4% of a vehicle's EPA combined rating. BMW's system needs work.

     

    Also realized it is an old article. My apologies if it has been discussed and I missed it.
    19 May 2012, 09:34 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (19437) | Send Message
     
    Alsobirdman: I don't recall seeing it before. Regardless, thank you for posting the link, which worked just fine for me.

     

    HardToLove
    19 May 2012, 09:38 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Interesting piece if it hasn't been posted. Read the comments section as some of the posters are very knowledgeable. Adds info. that points out pretty quickly another reason why you can't just drop a PBC in the vehicle.

     

    http://bit.ly/K0lWUA
    19 May 2012, 11:29 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3431) | Send Message
     
    Reading that was appalling. Classic case of something being over-engineered and under-engineered at the same time.
    19 May 2012, 01:31 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10233) | Send Message
     
    Mr. 86, To me it looked like some of it becomes a necessity based on the known life cycle of the specific battery that has been designed in the vehicle. After that there is no reason an automobile should have such poor field hardening. Especially a higher cost vehicle.

     

    So I guess what I'm saying I agree with your statement.
    20 May 2012, 06:58 PM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (523) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » Next concentrator this way --------->

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    19 May 2012, 12:53 PM Reply Like