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  • Axion Power Concentrator 105: May 23, 2012: U.S. DOE Awards Grant To Axion Power International To Fund Commercialization Plan For PbC® Batteries In Micro-Hybrid Vehicles 225 comments
    May 23, 2012 1:52 PM | about stocks: AXPW

    These instablogs and the people who maintain them have no relationship whatsoever to Axion Power International. To our direct knowledge no person with a current relationship to Axion Power International other than being a shareholder participates in these instablogs.

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    U.S. DOE Awards Grant to Axion Power International to Fund Commercialization Plan for PbC® Batteries In Micro-Hybrid Vehicles

    Initial $150,000 Can Lead to Larger Award

    NEW CASTLE, Pa., May 23, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Axion Power International Inc (OTC Bulletin Board: AXPW), the developer of advanced lead­-carbon PbC® batteries and energy storage systems, announced today that it has been awarded a $150,000 grant from the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) to fund a commercialization plan for the use of its PbC batteries in a "low-cost, high-efficiency" dual battery architecture for micro-hybrid vehicles.

    Micro-hybrid vehicles, which are well on their way to becoming the most common type of automotive vehicle (estimated market size is 25 million by 2016), currently utilize a "start-stop" system which automatically turns off the engine when the vehicle comes to rest, and then automatically restarts the engine when the brake is disengaged. Next generation micro-hybrid vehicles will, and in some cases already do, include added features such as regenerative braking, "sailing" (i.e. turning the engine off as the vehicle slows or coasts below a pre-determined speed) and perhaps some form of battery assist to the initial vehicle acceleration. The lead-acid battery [LAB] is not designed to suitably provide the dual function required in today's micro-hybrid vehicles, let alone handle the added loads of future micro-hybrid vehicles. The dual feature includes working with the alternator generator to start and power the vehicle while the engine is on (LAB is good at this), and then separately, powering the vehicle's ancillary load when the engine is off (LAB is very poor at this). The LAB's shortcomings with respect to powering the ancillary load are directly attributable to the battery's rapid decline in charge acceptance over time due to sulfation. This occurs in the LAB after just a few months of usage. The PbC battery, on the other hand, has been proven to quickly accept full system charge (i.e. no loss of charge acceptance) for more than 5 years of usage. This advantage translates into much greater "engine off" time resulting in much greater fuel economy with significantly reduced Co2 emissions. Both of these features are important goals of automotive OEM's and of political leaders in the countries where they manufacture vehicles.

    As more and more demands are placed on batteries for hybrid vehicles (such as those enumerated above), demands that require a significant amount of partial state of charge operation by the battery, a dual battery approach seems to offer the most efficient solution. Since the lead acid battery fails to be an adequate solution where charge acceptance/fast rate of re-charge is required, LAB's are not the answer to the dual battery approach. What Axion feels is the answer, and what the above award is designed to demonstrate, is that the PbC battery and PbC technology, will provide a cost effective solution to at least part, if not all, of the dual battery proposition.

    This grant, from the DOE Small Business Innovation Research program was for the maximum allocation under Phase I, but it is the first step in the DOE grant approval process that could lead to significantly larger awards in future Phases of the program, said Axion Power CEO Thomas Granville. The award of the grant for Phase I enables Axion to apply for Phase II awards, which will be much larger ($1M or more). Successful completion of Phase II automatically qualifies an awardee to apply for additional DOE funding beyond the SBIR program. The Phase III funding provisions do not contain predetermined award limits.

    "This is a very important grant for Axion Power, not just for the financial assistance being provided, but for the acknowledgement by the DOE of the potential benefits of our PbC technology in new and innovative constructs and designs," Granville said. "Our technology is ideal for the new world of environmentally friendly, technologically advanced automotive vehicles. Our PbC batteries test out at a consistent high rate of charge acceptance for upwards of 5 years of usage. PbC's can be recharged quickly, have a proven safety record and are 100 percent recyclable - unlike some of the more exotic chemistries like lithium-ion batteries. We look forward to working closely with the DOE to demonstrate different potential applications that our PbC batteries offer for the hybrid and micro-hybrid markets."

    Axion Power was one of 75 companies out of a total of 764 applicants to earn an award in the first phase of the DOE's program. Grant funding is expected to be available to Axion Power by late June of this year and Phase I will conclude 10 months from that date. According to DOE documents, Phase II awards will be granted to approximately 50% of Phase I awardees and will conclude in 12-15 months. Phase III will follow shortly thereafter.

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    Axion Power's Weighted Moving Average Price and Volume:

    (updated May 19th)

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    Concentrator Comments:

    (updated May 19th)

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    LINKS to valuable Axion Power Research and websites:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites created by APC commentator Bangwhiz it is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one; including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Axion Power Website, the first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

    Axion Power Chart Tracking, HTL tracks AXPW's intra-day charting.

    Axion Power Q1 2012 Conference Call Questions, Set-up by Bangwhiz

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    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

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Comments (225)
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  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    Will one of you cheap "bottom feeders" (cleaned up for family viewing) buy 100 shares for $0.37 please! That's what I called for in my insta today and we only got $0.3698 so far.

     

    C'mon - 2/100ths of a penny?! Even I'm not that penurious!

     

    :-))

     

    HardToLove
    23 May 2012, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1488) | Send Message
     
    How about 50 shares????
    23 May 2012, 04:48 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    OR: That'll do. But it won't matter - tomorrow wil go on past that, based on the action I saw today. I'll post the EOD summary below when the short data is available, around 17:30 EDT.

     

    Even though I've not taken a full look yet, what I saw today said the down trend is likely over.

     

    I'm now, again, hoping the long sustainable grind up commences, with appropriate pauses along the way.

     

    HardToLove
    23 May 2012, 04:59 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >H.T. Love ... Truly, you are some of that paint still on the brush.
    23 May 2012, 05:22 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    An interesting release today from Princeton Power:

     

    http://bit.ly/JUYJ6q

     

    It's a tiny battery, but the release is just vague enough to intrigue me.

     

    For those that are interested in sector new, you can sign up for a great weekly newsletter full of stationary storage news links here:

     

    http://bit.ly/JqNno3
    23 May 2012, 02:06 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    This shows the block diagram layout of what PPS is doing there and on some other projects.

     

    http://bit.ly/A79vvZ
    23 May 2012, 02:13 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Yes, the intriguing part:

     

    "The 20-foot containerized ESS provided by PPS consists of one 100kW Grid-tied Inverter (GTIB) and multiple advanced lead-acid batteries, capable of producing 20kWh’s of energy."
    23 May 2012, 03:17 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    It could be nothing, or it could be another small project for an important installation.
    23 May 2012, 03:19 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Add this info to sock drawer, better not to think about it. Don't want to put evil eye on it.
    23 May 2012, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • sonrisa777
    , contributor
    Comments (122) | Send Message
     
    I can't put concentrator 105 in my favorites because they tell me the title is too long. Could you try and make it a bit shorter like the other ones. I've never had this problem before. Thank you!
    23 May 2012, 02:21 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    Sonrisa: Does the browser you use allow editing of the title?

     

    One think you could do is put it in a regular bookmark, then right-click and select properties, which should let you edit it. Then click and drag it to favorites should work.

     

    'Course, I use Firefox, so your browser may have different scenarios.

     

    Another possibility it to put a new folder right on the bookmark toolbar, named something else, and stick the bookmarks there.

     

    That ought to work on IE as well.

     

    HardToLove
    23 May 2012, 02:34 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    Your browser should let you create a shorter bookmark title like "Axion Concentrator" for your browser.
    23 May 2012, 02:34 PM Reply Like
  • sonrisa777
    , contributor
    Comments (122) | Send Message
     
    Thank you to you both :o) Something should work.
    24 May 2012, 07:11 AM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    APH

     

    Trying to save this to my favorites and it says the name is too long. Is that possible??

     

    map
    23 May 2012, 02:23 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    I use Firefox, but it went in just fine to my "Smart Bookmarks".

     

    HTH,
    HardToLove
    23 May 2012, 02:36 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    works great on Opera.
    23 May 2012, 03:44 PM Reply Like
  • WDD
    , contributor
    Comments (60) | Send Message
     
    Metro-

     

    I usually use IE, and sometimes Chrome, but I've been test-driving Opera for the last couple of months. As part of that test, I access Seeking Alpha (and these Concentrators, of course) exclusively through Opera. So far it has been terrific, with several useful features, especially the persistence of multiple open tabs after close and reopen. I'm still exploring. Would you mind giving the one or two top reasons you use Opera? Thanx.
    23 May 2012, 04:22 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    WDD,
    I was confused - nothing new. I am using Google Chrome, prefer it over Firefox. I installed Opera on a friend's computer the other day and is the reason for me having Opera stuck in my mind. Sorry.
    23 May 2012, 04:34 PM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1488) | Send Message
     
    Chrome works better... for those who haven't tried it... give it a shot
    23 May 2012, 04:50 PM Reply Like
  • WDD
    , contributor
    Comments (60) | Send Message
     
    S'alright.

     

    However, let me take the opportunity to relate that, thus far, Opera has been very well-behaved and SA has been rendered reliably. The persistent tabs I mentioned above are great when you are researching something through multiple tabs -- at the end of the day you close the browser and the next time you open it all the tabs are open to the same pages. You can take up where you left off without having to work back through your bookmarks.
    23 May 2012, 04:51 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    WDD<
    My Firefox reopens the working pages also. Want to restore your previous session? Click here!
    23 May 2012, 04:58 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    that does sound interesting considering I always have the same tabs open.
    23 May 2012, 05:02 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    WDD, ditto for Firefox.

     

    I tried to install Chrome on one of my Linux boxes, but the version wouldn't go on.

     

    Maybe time to give it a shot again. 64 bit was the problem IIRC.

     

    A side thought: being it's from Google, need I worry if they have code in it that "snoops" me? If so I don't want it.

     

    HardToLove
    23 May 2012, 05:04 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13507) | Send Message
     
    The word I get from some savvy friends is that the initial Chrome install is clean, but watch out for updates...
    23 May 2012, 08:24 PM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (528) | Send Message
     
    One thing in the grant application that I liked was that "...the PbC battery and PbC technology, will provide a cost effective solution to at least part, IF NOT ALL, of the dual battery proposition." Emphasis added by me.

     

    However, I do wonder how the PbC could be used for both batteries in a two battery solution given that the PbC self-discharge rate is higher than standard lead acid. I could see a single larger battery which not only would overcome the self-discharge issue but would also give more room for going up the hybridization ladder.

     

    A story from my personal experience. Last winter the small starter battery in my Honda Insight died. The normal hassle in replacing a car battery was compounded in my mind by two points. First, why was the starter battery so small? If it was a little larger, maybe I wouldn't have had to replace it (the car was less than two years old at that point). The second point was that why doesn't the car use the much bigger battery that provides the hybridization? It felt like needing change for a parking meter while having a wallet full of cash. This sure seemed like a case of sub-optimal design.

     

    My issue is that any two-battery solution is sub-optimal to some degree but exceptionally so if both batteries are of the same type. Is there a way the design variables of the PbC could be tweaked to create a superior starting-only battery?
    23 May 2012, 02:39 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    AP,
    I could be wrong on this but I think it has been discussed before. If my memory is incorrect I'm sure someone will correct me.

     

    The PbC can be used for both starting and hotel loads. However the discharge rate of 3% per day only allows the car to be parked for 30 days without the battery being drained. Automakers want to allow more time than that so an old fashion lead acid battery just for starting is being used.
    Better safe than sorry is what the automakers want.

     

    To bad Telsa forgot that. At least the PbC can be charged after going dead. It does not become a brick. But I have never seen it discussed that the PbC could be redesigned to have a slower self-discharge rate.

     

    I hope that answers your question.
    23 May 2012, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (528) | Send Message
     
    Futurist, thanks for trying but that doesn't answer my question. I'll rephrase my question. Given that the PbC has a 3%/day self-discharge, how could PbC be used for the starter battery as Axion implies it can in the quote I pasted?

     

    Thanks
    23 May 2012, 03:57 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    I believe the self discharge is estimated to be 30% a month or 1% a day. The PbC could be used for the starter battery if it weren't for the airport parking thing. There is some safety in an isolated starting battery that should maintain 12+ volts for more than a month. Remember the PbC has a steep voltage curve that a standard starter won't like...
    23 May 2012, 04:07 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3446) | Send Message
     
    "Remember the PbC has a steep voltage curve that a standard starter won't like..."

     

    Tim, quibble. I think the PbC has no trouble whatsoever delivering amps to the starter, IE I doubt there is much voltage depression under load, but rather as significant energy is extracted over time the open circuit voltage would fall off somewhat with each Amp-Hr...
    23 May 2012, 04:15 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the correction on the discharge rate. So, if a person could start the car once in a three month period the battery would start the car. I'm not sure what the auto manufacturers want in this area.
    23 May 2012, 04:15 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    86, was talking about the voltage at the end of the 30% self discharge (a month in an airport). Sorry, should have stated such.

     

    Futurist, it's the low voltage that may force you to start the car more frequently.

     

    I am saying why not auto start the damn car! <smile> you have all of the logic already. Car in neutral and the hood down? start the car already!
    23 May 2012, 05:00 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    Tim,
    Would we call that a stopped/start system? :-)

     

    But it would solve the problem of charging the battery once every two weeks.
    Unless it is in an enclosed garage or a space the fumes should not be allowed to fill.
    23 May 2012, 05:06 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    I like it! There will always be some conditions that may not be ideal to a stopped/start system but those can be handle by an enable/disable switch. You probably wouldn't need the system enabled in the garage but might at the airport. A wild idea but they exist in the class 8 market today...
    23 May 2012, 05:19 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Optimized idle is a great companion for S/S. Think about police cars, taxicabs or being stuck in deadlock traffic for hours. You shut the engine off but the AC continues to run until the battery low event at which time the engine starts and charges the battery. How about going into a store in the summer and coming back to a 75 degree interior instead of 120 degrees.

     

    As you can tell I am intrigued by the possibilities. I can wait to see what the engineers come up with. All made possible by our PbC battery...
    24 May 2012, 07:48 AM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9908) | Send Message
     
    Discovered last night that not all stop/start vehicles will require a second battery to start a car.

     

    http://bit.ly/Kb3AQZ
    23 May 2012, 02:43 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    My February article on micro-hybrids focused on an analytical framework that divides micro-hybrids into three tiers – light, medium and heavy – and shows their market share expectations for each tier. – http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    I think that framework can be very useful in helping investors understand where various battery technologies will fit in the micro-hybrid universe. BMW is clearly focused on the heavy end of the spectrum while the new Ford Fusion, for example, is on the light end of the spectrum.

     

    My current sense is that the PbC will own the heavy segment and be competitive for the upper end of the medium segment. It will probably never play in the light segment.
    23 May 2012, 02:54 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    Maya, Unfortunately you still have those darn hotel loads.
    23 May 2012, 03:12 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    I would expect piston positioning to get less efficient as compression bleeds off, but then again I only took one semester of auto shop in high school.
    23 May 2012, 03:14 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    John: at that point, the cycle needed is so short and the firing of the first cylinder (or two) are the only ones that would experience inefficiency.

     

    The lost energy would be unnoticable in all cases. Less than one full revolution should be required.

     

    HardToLove
    23 May 2012, 03:18 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    Like I said, auto shop was never my strong suit. Nevertheless, it seems to me that piston that's positioned near the top of the compression stroke doesn't leave much room for the air needed to support combustion.
    23 May 2012, 03:23 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    John, I haven't read that much on the the technology but with modern sensors and electronic control of the fuel/spark they should be able to sense where the cam shaft is and fire the best cylinder to get the engine started.
    23 May 2012, 03:23 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9908) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: Yep.

     

    I did a lot of research last night, way too many articles to post all of them here.

     

    There is a lot of starter technology emerging. Gadgets galore!

     

    Some highlights from last night's surfing:

     

    New thin and flexible "organic" batteries, like this one from NEC, are coming:

     

    http://bit.ly/KCVwGc

     

    Envia Systems has a new "breakthrough" battery:

     

    http://bit.ly/KCVwGg
    23 May 2012, 03:31 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    I guess I can remove that theory from my tick list;-)
    23 May 2012, 03:36 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Another thought. My truck will automatically start if the battery voltage drops below a set voltage and charge the battery. It will also start to cool/warm the interior is a threshold is reached. It will do the same if outside temperatures fall below a given value to warm the engine and circulate fuel. It will also shutdown on its own when the event end criteria is meet. (assuming hood is closed and other hazard cautions are meet). The feature is called Optimized Idle.

     

    Mother in law almost jumped out of her skin when the truck started and we were not there. It was the interior temperature event and shut down about 5 minutes later...
    23 May 2012, 04:17 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1348) | Send Message
     
    Tim, are you serious?
    I know some locomotives and heavy-duty buses that need that feature. Awesome.
    23 May 2012, 04:51 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    When I owned my own, it did the same.

     

    It was a really handy feature.

     

    HardToLove
    23 May 2012, 05:08 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Yea, its great! you can get this aftermarket as well. Instead of idling constant the engine will stop/start based on conditions resulting in drastic idle reduction. You still idle but you are smart about it. It is all done in the ECU and could be done with S/S cars as well as they are controlling all this already...
    23 May 2012, 05:11 PM Reply Like
  • WDD
    , contributor
    Comments (60) | Send Message
     
    "Optimized Idle" -- neat!

     

    An ICE vehicle that executes its own recharge event contrasted with a certain EV that phones the Mothership and requests a support visit from a gasoline powered generator.
    23 May 2012, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4135) | Send Message
     
    Maya, my reaction (formed in ignorance no doubt) to learning of availability of combustion ignition tech was that it might eliminate/reduce need for beefing up starters to handle much greater frequency/incidence of use and help hold down costs of implementing Start/Stop. But, capture of breaking energy by using alternator/generator combination units might offset any weight savings from sticking with current duty-rated starters.
    23 May 2012, 06:38 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9908) | Send Message
     
    D-Inv: Your reply was exactly why I was poking around last night, seeing what's out there, that "might" prove a two battery system to be not needed.

     

    I was also curious about the "noise" created by each start. It seemed a minor issue, but there was at least one complaint at a BMW complaint site.

     

    Further, at the same site, I read a customer complaining about how the stop/start feature would not work at the first stop sign in the morning, forcing the owner to hit the start button.

     

    There were several complaints toward this end. I read where one bimmer owner took it to get serviced, and after a couple of hours of reprogramming the car, the same darned thing happened the very next day. Back to the shop went the car. The dealership had to call BMW, and they spent another three hours de-programming and re-programming the car. Next day everything worked fine.

     

    This was a brand new car. Bugs!

     

    If BMW does choose the PbC, I now better understand why it's taking so long.
    23 May 2012, 06:55 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9908) | Send Message
     
    2013 Ford Fusion prices stop/start (as an option) at $295:

     

    http://bit.ly/JIi6Rk
    23 May 2012, 02:46 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >Mayascribe ... Cool. I've heard of this system over the years. I see another engine sensor as just one more point of failure. Precision piston location sounds cool & high techy but what happens when its not so precise? Visions of blown heads, cracked rods, bent valve pass before my doubting mind's eye .... meh, it could work fine.
    23 May 2012, 02:51 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    DRich, Mercedes has been using it to. Computers change everything.

     

    The sensor should be fairly bullt-proff as it ought to be just magnetic sensors around the crank end (dman! can't recall what that harmonic balancer is called ;-)

     

    hardToLove
    23 May 2012, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    Doesn't address hotel loads. Secondly, how long can it sit there before it won't restart? I couldn't determine if you could turn the ignition off and then use it to start the car later. Probably not.
    23 May 2012, 03:20 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    HTL,
    You won a cupie doll. Harmonic balancer it is and they already have mag sensors to determine timing as the ECM fires the spark now instead of mechanical timing.
    23 May 2012, 03:21 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2639) | Send Message
     
    Another link to the:

     

    SAE 2012 Powertrains, Fuels &
    Lubricants Meeting
    Technical Session Schedule

     

    http://bit.ly/JDQxmB

     

    Appears the presentation will be written if it is accepted.
    23 May 2012, 05:10 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Stefan! another opportunity for our team to get the word out...
    23 May 2012, 05:31 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    Just another audience learning the Axion story.
    23 May 2012, 05:27 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    Have not dug into this yet but here's a starter for those interested.

     

    "ES-Select: Match.com for Renewable Developers and Energy Storage"

     

    http://bit.ly/LEXTgD-/
    23 May 2012, 05:49 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    Sorry, Try this. First article at Greentech Media.

     

    http://bit.ly/KUZ32y
    23 May 2012, 06:17 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9908) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: You're following my breadcrumbs! Read that one last night.

     

    I still have to find an article that I saw as the "coolest starter." Wish I would have bookmarked it.
    23 May 2012, 07:00 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    Hey Maya, I was able to keep up because I was wearing the HULC. Without it I would have been left in the "crust". (I know, I know Ugh!).

     

    http://bit.ly/MIdSKc

     

    More uses for those laptop batteries.

     

    BTW, I tried to use their link to look at their comments on lead acid. Link doesn't work. AKA, Government work.
    23 May 2012, 07:11 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2297) | Send Message
     
    Very cool tech.

     

    But what happens when the lithium battery pack takes a round?

     

    Do they carry a fire extinguisher?
    24 May 2012, 06:08 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    (AXPW) EOD stuff and a comment or two.

     

    # Trds: 88, MinTrSz: 100, MaxTrSz: 43610, Vol 482294, AvTrSz: 5481
    Min. Pr: 0.3400, Max Pr: 0.3698, VW Avg. Trade Pr: 0.3520
    # Buys, Shares: 34 239960, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.3556
    # Sells, Shares: 51 235944, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.3483
    # Unkn, Shares: 3 6390, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.3537
    Buy:Sell 1.02:1, DlyShts 180210 37.4%

     

    Comments: closed flat but DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT!

     

    Someone is working an agenda. Check the last few trades.
    0.3501......200 03:57:55 PM
    0.3550..14800 03:57:27 PM
    0.3501......200 03:56:42 PM
    0.3550....2800 03:55:23 PM

     

    OK. So you counter that those 200 share trades are just order completion taking the 2800 and 14800 up to what was really ordered. RIGHT! And they just happened to complete $0.0049 lower than the order was really for in both cases and be the same as the close of yesterday?!

     

    I don't think so. I also find the interval between the base portion and the 200 share "completion" near EOD suspicious. There were only two other trades during the day anywhere near, 237 and 250. And those were in much slower periods.

     

    I view today's *real* close to be $0.355, +1/2 penny. I know, I know, big deal! Hey, in a penny stock, what do you expect? It's +1% when we are apparently bottomed out!

     

    <tin-foil hat off>

     

    Recall that back in # 104 earlier today we had Buy:Sell 1:2.00. The nice recovery to become neutral (actually *slightly* biased towards the buy side) is quite positive, IMO.

     

    Notice that the average trade size has moved into the upper ranges of what used to be our "normal" range. Even if I split the 43K trade among all the trades it's only a 500 share difference, leaving us still just below 5K. That seems to confirm one of the things I *think* indicates a turn coming in my experimental charts - trade size bottoming out and starting to move up again.

     

    On the traditional TA side, we *may* have had a volume spike that often indicates an end of a trend is here or very near.

     

    Today's volume was 43.4% above yesterday's 25-day average (~336K), which included the 2.35M volume of 4/26. Further, it was 3.35 times yesterday's 144,015.

     

    We also had a higher high and lower low, an indication of indecision that often is associated with a change in trend, which I know you are aware was down. I know I had mentioned the nice rounding pattern the volume had made leading into today, another desired pattern.

     

    Nothing else on the traditional front changed.

     

    Now we need to see follow-through soon on some volume and higher price if we are not just consolidating.

     

    There's *always* a risk that we move down, but the experimental stuff in my charts suggest otherwise, *if* the limited data I've been collecting into the charts are truly indicative.

     

    I'll leave those thoughts for that instablog so those without an interest won't have to skip it all here.

     

    I'll just say that if I see $0.33, I won't be awaiting an uptrend - I'll be adding some small blocks at least. But I really do think I won't see that.

     

    HardToLove
    23 May 2012, 07:03 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >H.T. Love ... MACD shows that yesterday was change in trend, slightly favoring a small divergence to buys over sells. Today added to it but leads me to believe that here (.34-.37) is where we will stay for at least the next 5 trading days.

     

    I second your prognostication.
    23 May 2012, 07:22 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    Thanks HTL.

     

    I've been watching and my sense is that the last week or so the MM's have changed the game dramatically. I'm seeing all kinds of activity I've not seen at a very high frequency in the past. Almost like there are larger players looking to position and the volume will not support their interests.

     

    I've been doing some entry of late and it's definitely not the same.
    23 May 2012, 07:34 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    DRich and IIndelco: I had to give up something on the charts as I had so much that if I wanted to see everything, it would have been too small for me to read. Since I could "estimate" MACD type stuff it was jettisoned.

     

    As to 5 days, if that's all it was that would be great after what we've observed in the past. But don't be surprised if we start consolidating above $0.37. $0.34 doesn't seem to hold any "magic" on the 1-year chart. If we stick here, it's just "congestion". Looking at recent trends, the $0.37-$0.40 (possibly extending to $0.42) seems a more likely consolidation range. But we are bumping our head on that $0.37, so we have to get solidly through there to start what I believe could be consolidation.

     

    My experimental charts are suggesting, based on the limited data I have so far, that it might not take long at all.

     

    Being an "infernal optimist", I'll stick with busting through there tomorrow, maybe as late as Monday. But I like tomorrow, for emotional reason probably.

     

    Iindelco, I'm glad you raised the "change" in MM activities. I had been thinking the same thing. Since there was nothing I could pin down and verify I decided not to mention it.

     

    And I have to confess some of it is tin-foil hat inspired.

     

    Anyway, one of the thoughts that crossed my mind is that a larger client wanted to accumulate some shares and that put one or more MMs to work as the activitie profile had definitely changed.

     

    Today was one example: in contrast to many days in the past, we've started seeing *rising* prices and some larger volumes together nearing EOD. It used to be falling prices and volumes could be larger or smaller nearing EOD.

     

    And I suspected the were reading our blogs as many fewer occurrences of 100-share lures have been seen of late. So, being the adaptive animal I am, I began to suspect the 200-500 share trades were the new lures! :-))

     

    Don't want to let a good opportunity for another conspiracy theory go to waste now.

     

    HardToLove
    23 May 2012, 10:06 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >H.T. Love ... Only one criticism. Getting anything done on Monday next would be a neat trick. Happy Memorial Day :)
    23 May 2012, 10:26 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    Oops!

     

    Forgot about that.

     

    Well, we'll have to do it Friday latest then! :-))

     

    HardToLove
    23 May 2012, 10:58 PM Reply Like
  • festein
    , contributor
    Comments (78) | Send Message
     
    Any thoughts on this one - Li-ion dropping to $300/kWh

     

    http://bit.ly/JrWc0Y

     

    Is this real?
    23 May 2012, 09:12 PM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1844) | Send Message
     
    That article reads like a crock of bs to me, festein. No quotes, no sources, just the author making stuff up.

     

    D
    23 May 2012, 09:54 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    I'm not a battery geek but I know there is a difference in battery and battery pack prices plus automotive market batteries have pretty demanding specs. Just ask A123.
    23 May 2012, 09:58 PM Reply Like
  • festein
    , contributor
    Comments (78) | Send Message
     
    Thanks guys - really, this market has so much FUD PR action (Fear Uncertainty Doubt) - never seen anything like it
    23 May 2012, 10:21 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    What a wonderful website for scam artists!

     

    You pay $79 for a 700 word press release or $19.90 for a *corporate* package of fifty 2,500 word press releases and then publish whatever you want without attribution – http://bit.ly/Jz2DnJ
    24 May 2012, 12:32 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1348) | Send Message
     
    "Lithium batteries have three times the life of an equivalent sealed lead acid battery and five times charge and discharge rates"

     

    Two Questions:
    1. Is this correct?
    2. What exactly is the charge acceptance rate of PbC compared to lithium batteries?
    24 May 2012, 10:20 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    D Lane,
    I'll take a stab at this:

     

    ""Lithium batteries have three times the life of an equivalent sealed lead acid battery and five times charge and discharge rates"

     

    Two Questions:
    1. Is this correct?
    Depends on what you consider an "equivalent" sealed LA battery? Are they talking advanced LA, AGM, AGM plus additives, Ultra-battery, PbC? If you are talking just a standard sealed battery then it may be true. Unless of course you are someplace very cold or very hot where the Li-ion battery really sucks. If you are talking PbC, then I would say this is false, but they didn't compare it to a PbC, they compared it to a sealed LA battery.
    2. What exactly is the charge acceptance rate of PbC compared to lithium batteries?
    To my knowledge, we don't know. I don't recall ever seeing a document that shows a direct comparison. Maybe there is one for a LA battery, but there certainly isn't a published one for a PbC vs a Li-ion battery. Axion's white paper shows that the PbC can go through hundreds of thousands of shallow discharges and recharges without damaging the battery or affecting the charge rate, so in that respect we know that the comparison is wrong.
    24 May 2012, 03:20 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    The simple answer is that most lithium-ion batteries have no significant cycle-life advantage over the PbC and no significant charge acceptance advantage.

     

    The cold weather performance of lithium-ion chemistry (e.g. under 32º F) on the other hand is absolutely dreadful.

     

    The only claims lithium-ion can honestly make are lighter and more compact, for three or four times the cost.
    24 May 2012, 03:45 PM Reply Like
  • Carnardie
    , contributor
    Comments (259) | Send Message
     
    What's the expected cost per kWh for PbC batteries? I came across a Sandia National Labs report last year that had "Advanced Lead Acid batteries" at $330/kWh. Is that about right?
    25 May 2012, 03:46 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    The simple answer is we don't know, but even if we did it wouldn't be relevant.

     

    Cost per kWh is a critical metric for an energy battery that will be used to power an EV for long distances or store off-peak power for use the next day.

     

    It is a meaningless metric for power batteries that are used in applications like stop-start idle elimination, railroad electrification, and most grid-based storage.

     

    I have to tolerate your deceptive, snarky foolishness on the main pages but the APH is not subject to the same constraints. In fact, they're very intolerant of meaningless comment from trolls like you.
    25 May 2012, 04:44 AM Reply Like
  • Carnardie
    , contributor
    Comments (259) | Send Message
     
    "I have to tolerate your deceptive, snarky foolishness ..."

     

    Jeez Louise, all I did was ask the price!

     

    For batteries, cost per kWh is almost never irrelevant, as both cost and capacity are important. In a start-stop system, capacity (expressed in kWh) tells us how long the battery can carry the hotel loads. If the capacity runs out, then the engine will need to restart before the driver is ready to drive, or the things being powered will have to be powered down. One affects the gas savings, the other affects the driving experience and comfort.

     

    And cost always matters. A start-stop system that costs $500 instead of $300 would be reflected in the price the consumer pays. I would think there's incredible pressure to build such systems at the lowest possible cost.

     

    If we don't know the price Axion is going to charge for its batteries, then how can we know if they're going to be successful selling them? If PbC batteries cost more than Li-Ion batteries and both meet the performance characteristics, then why would automakers choose PbC?
    25 May 2012, 12:55 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    You're wrong about energy being relevant in stop-start. Every system out there has an engine off time limit of 60 to 90 seconds. The total energy consumption during that interval is 40,000 to 60,000 watt seconds, or 17 watt hours at the outside. There isn't a hotel load in stop-start that will use more than 1% to 3% of a battery's energy capacity. The batteries are sized the way they are because that's what's required to get the requisite power.

     

    Cost per vehicle matters. Cost per kWh doesn't. The cost an OEM is willing to pay for a battery system is directly proportional to the work he expects that battery system to do. For low end light micro-hybrid systems that save 3% to 4% on fuel, the upper limit on acceptable battery cost is probably on the order of $120. For high end heavy micro-hybrid systems that save 15% to 20% on fuel, the upper limit on acceptable battery cost is probably closer to $600.

     

    We don't know what Axion's battery cost will be but BMW and the other automakers that have been testing it for three years and have spent millions on the effort all have a pretty good idea. The fact that they're continuing testing and spending increasing amounts of money is all we really need to know.

     

    Most automakers won't even bother testing lithium-ion batteries because they're three to four times more costly than the PbC and offer no significant performance advantage for the application. I know all about the weight and size nonsense, but no automaker in the world is going to pay a $1,000 premium to save 40 pounds of weight in a car.

     

    The current cost of the PbC is interesting, but just barely. There is one assembly line in the world that can make electrodes for about 150 batteries per shift. That puts the PbC at the far top left hand corner of the production cost learning curve, instead of way out in the flats like you see for lithium-ion batteries and EV components.

     

    This forum is for people who want to learn about Axion and the PbC. The host isn't about to let it become a free-for-all forum for arguments with EVangelicals, particularly ones who tend to clutter the main pages with irrelevancies. I'm happy to answer direct and honest questions, but this is a troll free zone and the host will not tolerate abusive, irrrelevant or disruptive comments or commenters.
    25 May 2012, 01:18 PM Reply Like
  • pascquale
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Regarding

     

    "Every system out there has an engine off time limit of 60 to 90 seconds"

     

    I could not find any sites talking about a set time limit on the engine off event. It makes sense (to me) that if the battery could handle a longer period they would take advantage of it. I'd like to see some information on that if you have any links.
    Thanks
    25 May 2012, 06:40 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    Pascquale,
    If memory serves me correctly, this time frame comes from two main sources. The BMW-Ford presentation at the Istanbul battery conference a few years ago, and what the current systems are doing on SS systems in Europe. If you go to Bangwhiz's APC search site you can probably search and find the Istanbul presentation. Otherwise I would check specs for the European systems, since they've been using SS for years.
    25 May 2012, 11:03 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    I attended ELBC 12 in Istanbul in 2010 and button-holed a couple engineers from Ford and BMW because I wanted to understand how stop-start systems were designed to function if you were stuck on a Houston freeway in August with an accident a mile up the road.

     

    They explained to me that passenger comfort issues were their biggest design constraint because consumers are willing to save fuel, but they're not willing to sweat or shiver to save fuel. As a result current systems are designed with a variety of cut-outs that avoid engine off if temperatures are too low or too high and restart the engine if stop intervals are too long. They don't want a situation where a driver is stuck in a traffic jam and sits with accessories running for a long enough period that the car won't start. Given the current limits of battery technology, 60 seconds is the most common interval because it's long enough to save fuel in normal traffic and not so long that it might create problems.

     

    Since I'm one of the keynote speakers for ELBC 13 in September, I plan to update my knowledge at that event.
    26 May 2012, 01:58 AM Reply Like
  • pascquale
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the reply:)
    26 May 2012, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • Carnardie
    , contributor
    Comments (259) | Send Message
     
    JP: "The current cost of the PbC is interesting, but just barely. "

     

    According to JP himself (http://bit.ly/MbIvcb), you-all will be barely interested to know that the price NS paid to Axion was $800/kWh for PbC batteries.
    9 Jul 2012, 12:10 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >canard ... I agree. I'm barely interested. NS is buying for power (kw) and a few other attributes that matter, like DCA. I figure they know what they're doing.
    9 Jul 2012, 12:18 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    The first commercial version of any product is priced at the far upper left hand corner of the learning curve. As manufacturing technology matures and supply chains get more robust, manufacturing costs plummet. http://bit.ly/NeEbqn

     

    These are true economies of scale (http://bit.ly/xkR9Sr) and they will most certainly be critical as Axion transitions from the capacity to make 150 PbC batteries per day to the capacity to make thousands or tens of thousands of PbC batteries per day.
    9 Jul 2012, 12:32 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4135) | Send Message
     
    Re- PJM Interconnection auction results for 2015 power capacity commitments. Auction results were published 5/22. Capacity prices reported in the foxnews.com article referenced earlier today in APC104 conform to those in the PJM auction report. The magnitude of increases reported in the article, however, appear to relate 2015 capacity charges to those applicable now.

     

    From the Executive Summary of the auction report,
    <
    Because of transmission constraints, the capacity prices in two areas are higher than the rest of the PJM (i.e. the “RTO” price). The RTO price for annual resources is $136.00 per megawatt-day (MW-day). The RTO prices for Limited Demand Response and Extended Summer Demand Response are $118.54/MW-day and $136.00/MW-day, respectively.

     

    In PJM’s MAAC area, the price for annual resources is $167.46/MW-day. The MAAC price for Limited Demand Response and Extended Summer Demand Response are $150/MW-day and $167.46/MW-day, respectively. The MAAC area consists of the transmission system of Atlantic City Electric, Baltimore Gas and Electric Company, Delmarva Power, Jersey Central Power and Light Company (JCP&L), Metropolitan Edison Company (Met-Ed), PECO, Pennsylvania Electric Company (Penelec), Pepco, PPL Electric Utilities, Public Service Electric and Gas Company (PSE&G), and Rockland Electric Company.

     

    In northern Ohio for the ATSI LDA, the price for annual resources is $357.00/MW-day. The ATSI price for Limited Demand Response and Extended Summer Demand Response are $304.62/MW-day and $322.08/MW-day, respectively.
    <
    23 May 2012, 09:12 PM Reply Like
  • Lafferty
    , contributor
    Comments (253) | Send Message
     
    Upcoming Axion presentation:

     

    Greater Indiana Clean Cities Coalition: Greening Your Fleet, June 18-19, 2012

     

    http://bit.ly/Lrwzfv

     

    http://bit.ly/LqWRls
    23 May 2012, 10:32 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    Anybody close enough to go?
    23 May 2012, 11:45 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    IMHO, this seems a little bit of enhancement of the marketing strategy. Where Axion has been marketing to OEM's, they now are going to a conference and making the end consumer, , i.e. cities and municipalities with fleets of vehicles, aware of the product for them to demand it from the OEM's. Push and pull.
    24 May 2012, 06:11 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1348) | Send Message
     
    Interesting! Seems to be focused on heavy vehicles such as Class 8 trucks. I've been eager to see some sign that Axion is interested in this market. However, I think Eaton and Parker are way ahead of them in refuse trucks with their hydraulic hybrids.
    24 May 2012, 10:13 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Lafferty!

     

    Remember that Indiana is also Mr. Dantam's stomping ground so he has tons of contacts in the area.

     

    http://linkd.in/xlWKbd
    24 May 2012, 10:23 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1348) | Send Message
     
    Great point on Indiana. There is a lot of truck manufacturing in and around Indiana. Think Cummins and Autocar, both mentioned on that program.
    24 May 2012, 10:44 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Just looked at Mr. Dantam's education more in depth. Cambridge, and graduate degrees from Vanderbilt and IU. Impressive list.
    24 May 2012, 11:05 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4135) | Send Message
     
    re heavy vehicles and Eaton. I have wondered about utility of the PbC in Eaton-like electric hybrid systems.

     

    http://tinyurl.com/ct5...
    <
    Our patented electric hybrid power system uses a parallel configuration that maintains the vehicle’s conventional drivetrain layout and uses patented controls to blend engine torque with electric torque to move the vehicle. The system recovers power normally lost during braking and stores the energy in batteries and can provide engine-off power take off and work site capability for those needing hydraulic operations and an auxiliary electric power source from the vehicle. As an additional benefit, should the hybrid electric system go off-line, conventional engine-powered operation continues.
    <
    24 May 2012, 12:54 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    D Lane, Speaking of Indiana.

     

    In for a penny in for a pound.

     

    http://bit.ly/JMyeBx
    24 May 2012, 02:57 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Anyone know anything about this battery?
    http://bit.ly/KiGG8Q

     

    Trying to figure out if have lead negative electrode.
    http://bit.ly/LGwT0m

     

    more:
    http://bit.ly/KiIMFO
    24 May 2012, 02:39 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    Atraverda's bi-polar lead acid is an intriguing concept due to its high energy density but they've had a tough time getting any real traction in the market because it can't be manufactured in existing plants. When we met with Atraverda in 2005 they seemed to be a good ways farther down the path than Axion was at the time. Since then the positions have changed significantly.
    24 May 2012, 02:53 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    Interesting, not much information and no specs.
    24 May 2012, 02:59 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    You can't have a battery without a positive electrode and a negative electrode. If you look at the graphic in the second link, the negative electrodes are green while the positive electrodes are red. Since they don't make any claims respecting sulfation, I have to assume they offer no particular advantages when it comes to that critical failure mechanism.

     

    Their presentation from the 14th Asian Battery Conference is here:

     

    http://bit.ly/MJaCOB

     

    It appears that their cycle life is comparable to conventional AGM batteries.
    24 May 2012, 03:17 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    metro, I reviewed that some time ago on brand x. Here is another sibling. As you can guess less mass is always a good for efficiency in things that move. Especially 2 wheelers.

     

    http://bit.ly/Ltv5oo

     

    Agree with John. Uptake has been less than stellar and certainly one of the prime reasons is the industries unwillingness to retool for commodity pricing.
    24 May 2012, 10:01 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for reply.
    24 May 2012, 10:05 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    metro, Seems your post was timely.

     

    "Atraverda to develop energy storage system"

     

    http://bit.ly/Ku2tv8
    24 May 2012, 01:51 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    IINDelco,
    Interesting. John said that they were ahead of Axion in development back in 2005 and now they are teaming up with the UK on a venture to try and make a UPS system with the battery that they hope to have done in two years. No one ever said that commercialization of something was easy!
    24 May 2012, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    LabTech, You win the "Warm Fuzzy" prize today. Exactly!
    24 May 2012, 03:49 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    "No one ever said that commercialization of something was easy".

     

    Obviously you're giving the EVangelicals a pass, right?

     

    HardToLove
    24 May 2012, 04:11 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2297) | Send Message
     
    While it looks like an elegant Lego like solution to assembly, it remains essentially a VRLA in its fundamental chemistry.

     

    I do not see any way around the sulfation issue.

     

    Reading between the lines in their FAQ section, it is what will kill the battery:

     

    >>Is maintenance required for an Atraverda battery?
    Since the Atraverda battery is a sealed design using an absorptive glass mat separator, there is no maintenance that must be performed on this battery other than to make sure it is not overcharged or dries out like any VRLA battery.

     

    What is the estimated life of this product used in a PHEV, motive power, or stationary application?
    The battery life is affected significantly by the application in which it is installed and the depth of discharge it experiences.

     

    When properly used in heavy duty applications and charged as recommended, a target lifespan of 4-10 years is estimated.<<

     

    http://bit.ly/LspWgo

     

    Translation: Avoid deep discharge and the sulfation it causes to keep the battery functional.
    24 May 2012, 06:53 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    HTL,
    Let me rephrase that:
    "No one ever said that "successful" commercialization of something was easy." Or cheap for that matter. Unless of course you are doing it on the taxpayer's dollar.
    24 May 2012, 11:19 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    Slide 15 in Atrraverda's 14ABC presentation shows a sharp performance decline and positive active mass failure after 200 cycles to a 70% DOD at a 4.75 amp discharge rate and a 2.45 amp recharge rate.

     

    http://bit.ly/MJaCOB

     

    Granville would stay home if that was the best he could do.
    25 May 2012, 01:05 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    John,
    I saw the sharp performance decline, but thought that I was missing some information because of the only 200 cycles. Doesn't jibe with claiming 4-10 year life, or maybe it does as SMaturin wrote "avoid deep discharge".
    25 May 2012, 02:01 AM Reply Like
  • f-kru
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    They've got some good ceramic powder. Wait a minute, we've had that before... EEStor anyone?
    They are still around: http://www.zenncars.com
    25 May 2012, 04:26 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    Conventional lead acid doesn't like deep discharge, rapid recharge or frequent cycling. Mercifully the PbC does.
    25 May 2012, 04:49 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    The Ebonex powder is "titanium suboxide" a fascinating material that might help reduce the cost of PbC electrodes if it could be used to replace the current generation of corrosion barriers. I know the guys were interesting in looking into the question at one point in the distant past. I don't know whether they're still interested.
    25 May 2012, 04:53 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    John,
    I wrote "lead" negative electrode.

     

    From presentation 14th Asian battery conference, page 5.
    Their presentation quotes an "Ebonex® composite electrode"

     

    From: http://bit.ly/LspWgo

     

    "Due to the efficient straight “flow through” design of the bipolar battery, the performance is typically 35% higher than a standard VRLA battery and can be 35% lighter than a comparable VRLA battery."

     

    Not sure what "performance" means.

     

    "The battery life is affected significantly by the application in which it is installed and the depth of discharge it experiences. When properly used in heavy duty applications and charged as recommended, a target lifespan of 4-10 years is estimated."

     

    John, as you are always writing "There is no silver bullet". Again, it appears that if I made a Venn diagram with the two circles representing "Axion's" and "Atraverda's" potential applications, there would be overlap. While the PbC would have advantages in some applications, Atraverda may have them in others.
    24 May 2012, 05:51 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    The Ebonex composite electrode is what gives them the ability to make a bi-polar lead acid design. The Positive Active Mass is lead-dioxide paste and the Negative Active Mass is sponge lead. The Ebonex composite goes between the cells and allows current to flow from one directly into the other.

     

    Without detailed specifications on both batteries I'd hate to even try to draw a venn diagram in an effort to figure out whether there is any overlap. My guess is there wouldn't be much because the PbC is primarily a power battery and the Atraverda device is primarily an energy battery.
    24 May 2012, 10:23 AM Reply Like
  • Ricknplano
    , contributor
    Comments (304) | Send Message
     
    Seems battery research is happening everywhere. Here is the one I saw yesterday.

     

    http://bit.ly/JUCkrS
    24 May 2012, 08:45 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    I can attest to the problem of dendrite growth as being a real problem for the electronics industry from first hand experience. It is a real problem in the battery industry as well.

     

    http://bit.ly/KNQ6fc

     

    Their market might be licensing the technology. They surely can't be talking about selling units to you and me.
    24 May 2012, 10:09 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1844) | Send Message
     
    Science looks cool and who knows it might work.

     

    But this part made me chuckle: "They expect to bring it to market within a year".

     

    Yeah, good luck with that.

     

    D
    24 May 2012, 09:00 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    "They expect to bring it to the market within a year."

     

    Good luck on that. I think they are being overly pessimistic.;)
    24 May 2012, 09:02 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1930) | Send Message
     
    McHattie and metro...jinx

     

    I think we *might* be starting to see a knew kind of hype. The kind that should finally play to our advantage.

     

    I think it is becoming increasingly obvious that while Li-ion is a great technology it can not solve all of our energy storage needs, so we may start seeing "alternative" energy storage coming more into the mainstream as analysts and investors start asking themselves how they can benefit in the storage boom with the next great battery.

     

    The few, the proud and the early are a couple of steps ahead.
    24 May 2012, 09:20 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    D. McHattie,
    We must come from the same school of thought.
    24 May 2012, 09:34 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1844) | Send Message
     
    What's that about 'great minds...'?

     

    D
    24 May 2012, 10:07 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    'great minds...'
    I thought about writing that but thought it would be stretching the limits of imagination.
    24 May 2012, 10:26 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1844) | Send Message
     
    Of course you did, metro, I knew you would. But then you knew I would know that. Which, of course, I already knew.

     

    D
    24 May 2012, 11:51 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2737) | Send Message
     
    jk--And, Axion presenting at a lot of conferences, etc., is a 2-for-1: should help stimulate sales AND stock purchases. Just a few investors here and there that like what they hear and see and we have a new group of supporters. Even a little bit of cash into the stock can make a big difference.
    24 May 2012, 12:48 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9908) | Send Message
     
    Bill Gates amped up about a molten salt, liquid metal battery:

     

    http://bit.ly/Jfp2jK
    24 May 2012, 11:07 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    Maya, This relates to the TED Talk that someone here posted a wee while back.

     

    http://bit.ly/Lj3aVe
    24 May 2012, 11:14 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    The goal of the liquid-metal technology is ultra-large scale storage for things like time shift from off-peak to peak. It's a really tough economic problem because the systems will probably only have one revenue cycle per day and even at a high price of $.30 per kWh, the annual revenue potential is on the order of $78 per kWh since weekends are slack periods. If you're paying $300 to $400 per kw for inverters and other power control equipment, there isn't much revenue left for battery depreciation, operating expenses and that most evil of all concepts – profit.
    24 May 2012, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2431) | Send Message
     
    "The bulk of the development work left to do at Liquid Metal Battery will be focused on getting the cost of the battery down and figuring out the optimal size and shape. The company will also likely need more money down the road when it wants to start commercially producing the battery."

     

    Giga Likely I'd say.
    24 May 2012, 12:00 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13507) | Send Message
     
    Odd how often government and billionaires share an interest in economically inefficient technology... I suppose they share a habitual indifference to the forces of the real world where the rest of us peons live.
    24 May 2012, 01:33 PM Reply Like
  • Johhny rambo
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/LIjAfS

     

    Is there a pretty good reason that we should not be concerned about this scenario in the short/long term ? Not just Axion of course, perhaps moreso the L. ion manufacturers.

     

    Batteries will still be required of course, but for what specific purpose ?
    24 May 2012, 12:18 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    CNG (compressed natural gas) has been around for a long time and has been/is used in bus fleets. All it does is change fuels, S/S would still apply as would any other fuel saving measure.
    24 May 2012, 12:38 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    Also CNG vehicles typically have a shorter travel range than gasoline or diesel powered vehicles because the fuel is less energy dense. So anything that improves their range while making clean cleaner is a big bonus.
    24 May 2012, 12:49 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    Johnny: The significant keyword is "gasoline". It's till ian internal combustion engine. As the others noted, all the benefits of the s/s, regenerative braking, ... still accrue.

     

    Just because a fuel is cheap and plentiful now doesn't mean tha various efficiency improvements can't be justified, especially if you add in the tendency of regulators to constantly tighten emission regulations as technology becomes available regardless of whatever level has already been achieved.

     

    Think of a slower CARB (California Air Resources Board) at the federal level.

     

    Add in that all businesses like to reduce costs, regardless of how low they may at any particular time ... It's all a matter of amortization of the costs to increase saving in a reasonable time in the business case.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    24 May 2012, 01:03 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    One other thing to think about.

     

    http://bit.ly/JA9fCk

     

    Other counties have done a much better job than the US in applying CNG to motive apps.

     

    http://bit.ly/KSrOMR
    24 May 2012, 01:21 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    The most common systems in Switzerland are dual fuel jobs that have both CNG and gasoline, with the ability to switch back and forth at will. CNG gets used on the daily commute and you flip the switch to gasoline when it's time to take a week on the Cote d'Azure.
    24 May 2012, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4135) | Send Message
     
    Jr, LPG is a better alternative fuel than CNG in a number of respects. And, LPG is frequently produced in association with NG. Increased supplies of LPG have accompanied the increased supplies of NG in the US made available in large part by development and proliferation of hydraulic fracking. By LPG I mean propane, butane, etc.
    24 May 2012, 02:26 PM Reply Like
  • Aricool
    , contributor
    Comments (2886) | Send Message
     
    what makes you thin LPG is practical as a transportation fuel? LPG is not realistic b/c its price is pegged to the price of oil, while NG is not, and as you can see, can go towards zero price due to oversupply. NG drillers are trying to stay alive by moving to liquid rich plays that produce some LPG b/c it prices MUCH higher than NG. NG is barely competitive against gasoline or diesel, so LPG has no chance.
    24 May 2012, 11:46 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4135) | Send Message
     
    Aricool > "what makes you thin LPG is practical as a transportation fuel? LPG is not realistic b/c its price is pegged to the price of oil, while NG is not,...."

     

    LPG is more practical as a transportation fuel than CNG due to its greater energy density (enabling greater vehicle range) and its more common availability in this country (and many others). Technology for use of LPG in internal combustion engines has been around AND USED for a very long time. (In the '40s and '50s, duel fueled "light duty trucks" were commonplace in oilfields of Western Texas, for instance.) It's price tracks that of crude oil more closely than does CNG because it is more easily transported beyond region of production.

     

    http://bit.ly/JhSaH1 suggests there were ~2,600 LPG fueling stations serving ~270,000 vehicles in the U.S. early this year. Further commentary on that web page includes,
    <
    Autogas is widely used as a "green" fuel as it decreases exhaust emissions. In particular, it reduces CO2 emissions by around 35% compared to petrol. One litre of petrol produces 2.3 kg of CO2 when burnt, whereas the equivalent amount of autogas produces only 1.5 kg of CO2 when burnt.[1] It has an octane rating (MON/RON) that is between 90 and 110 and an energy content (higher heating value—HHV) that is between 25.5 megajoules per litre (for pure propane) and 28.7 megajoules per litre (for pure butane) depending upon the actual fuel composition.

     

    Autogas is the third most popular automotive fuel in the world, with approximately 16 million of 600 million passenger cars powered using the fuel, representing less than 3% of the total market share. Approximately half of all autogas-fueled passenger vehicles are in the five largest markets (in ascending order): Turkey, South Korea, Poland, Italy, and Australia.[2]
    <
    25 May 2012, 12:12 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    Good job D!

     

    HardToLove
    25 May 2012, 12:16 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3446) | Send Message
     
    I wonder if an efficient NG to LPG (GTL) process exists and could scale... if so, that could sure cut the gordian knot..
    25 May 2012, 12:17 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    How about a simple and inefficient NG to diesel? Efficiency is a good thing to a degree, but even a 60% efficient process that turns $30 of gas into $100 of oil looks pretty darned good if you can't find a market for the gas.
    25 May 2012, 12:27 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    John, They have that process already.

     

    NG => fertilizer => corn => Willie Diesel

     

    And you got you're poor efficiency request as well!
    25 May 2012, 12:35 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3446) | Send Message
     
    I certainly don't disagree with that, in fact I say bring it on... but I know GTL gets a lot of resistance for carbon emissions, or something... and it would "seem" like conversion to LPG *could* be a better process from that standpoint...as well as efficiency, cost etc.. In my simplistic understanding, Diesel is a superb motor fuel, but more difficult/costly to synthesize, NG is plentiful and cheap but problematic as a transportation fuel, with minimal refueling infrastructure in place, while LPG is a pretty good motor fuel, with some refueling infrastructure already in place, and *may be* easier/cheaper to synthesize..
    25 May 2012, 12:40 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4135) | Send Message
     
    Don't know about conversion efficiency of their process, but do know Shell Oil is producing ~260,000 b/d of liquid transportation fuels from NG in Qatar and is reportedly evaluating possible construction sites for a similar plant in Louisiana or Texas.

     

    http://tinyurl.com/738...
    http://tinyurl.com/7en...
    25 May 2012, 12:49 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2297) | Send Message
     
    Natural gas to diesel is being considered by Shell in this country: http://on.wsj.com/IQFry9

     

    Here are some issues:

     

    "The Fischer–Tropsch process has been applied on a large scale in some industrial sectors, although its popularity is hampered by high capital costs, high operation and maintenance costs, the uncertain and volatile price of crude oil, and environmental concerns. In particular, the use of natural gas as a feedstock becomes practical only with use of "stranded gas", i.e., sources of natural gas far from major cities which are impractical to exploit with conventional gas pipelines and LNG technology; otherwise, the direct sale of natural gas to consumers would become much more profitable. Several companies are developing the process to enable practical exploitation of so-called stranded gas reserves."
    http://bit.ly/KLLVx5

     

    Because of the "stranded gas" problem, it is more profitable in other countries, like Malaysia, Qatar and South Africa.
    25 May 2012, 01:07 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2169) | Send Message
     
    48: My limited research says no such process exists. Same for NG to gasoline equivalents.

     

    But there are companies who do convert NG to liquid fuel. So far they aren't all that competitive. The liquid output product loses a substantial percent of the energy of the NG going into the process.
    25 May 2012, 01:18 PM Reply Like
  • Johhny rambo
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the updates.

     

    So basically, probably a go with the long haul trucking market, but no impact on normal automotive stop start !
    24 May 2012, 12:54 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    Might make a better fit for local or daily class 8 deliveries. I don't know any long haul driver that wants to fuel more than every second or third day.
    24 May 2012, 01:13 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    Efficiencies are rarely an either-or choice. They're more frequently additive. If you take a look at the various technologies in the BMW EfficientDynamics package for example, they use better engines, stop-start, regenerative braking, electric power steering improved ventilation, reduced rolling resistance tires and driver feedback systems to improve total fuel efficiency.

     

    http://bit.ly/LoPawh

     

    These aren't customer selected options. They're automaker selected package components. There's nothing about any of them that will conflict with a CNG fuel system. They'll just make it more efficient too.
    24 May 2012, 01:18 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    For now, little effect (other than maybe UTAH?) on private passenger cars.

     

    The problem is fueling infrastructure. But (CLNE) and others are addressing that and Flying J (?) are building that out. Plus trucking terminals are beginning to put their own refueling stations in (provided by someone like CLNE).

     

    When the trucking infrastructure is substantially in place, that will enable a more rational conversion of private passenger vehicles, which will spur further infrastructure build-out.

     

    That's a lot of years out yet, IMO.

     

    All this *assumes* that any safety concerns in smaller vehicles are adequately addressed.

     

    Dodge offering their P/U with duel fuel configuration may help speed this - but not all that much initially I think.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    24 May 2012, 02:05 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (1025) | Send Message
     
    Last year when I owned Westport they announced a deal with Shell to build 50+ CNG fueling stations along certain key routes in the Western US with 30 being done by the end of 2012. To increase the utilitization of these assets to ensure that Shell got demand and Shell was so confident Shell was willing to do fleet financing with the long haul truckers on this route. The original plan was to build out from LA to SLC and then east to Kansas City in 2013. 2014 was to start going North/South on the west coast. Supposedly they were completing a similar buildout in British Columbia and Alberta in 2011. I sold my Westport last fall so I haven't kept up on it.
    29 May 2012, 02:27 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    Ah! Mr. Holty, glad you brought this up again.

     

    Since my comment, I ran across something that reminded that it was Pilot, not Flying J, that's adding the refueling pumps.

     

    Moreover, a long time ago I did some articles on NG and said that infra-structure would be developed first by commercial need and interests and that it would be the foundation that eventually led to wider adoption in private passenger vehicles. And I sid it would be regardless of incentives as the business case would be compelling enough.

     

    After that, realizing it was a long way out and beyond my time horizon I stopped following NG and related.

     

    It's good to see that some progress is being made and heartens me when you detail that it is *actually* making some progress.

     

    All hope is not lost and it seems we may progress regardless of inept government "energy policy", if one can call it that.

     

    Thanks for bringing that update to the fore!

     

    HardToLove
    29 May 2012, 02:50 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (1025) | Send Message
     
    Here was the original press release. You were right:

     

    They are going in Shell's Flying J stations.
    http://bit.ly/JsdNVp

     

    Here is a little more of what the map would look like at the end of 2013.
    http://bit.ly/LQmxbx
    29 May 2012, 03:24 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    Indubitably.

     

    "Huge subsidies give American taxpayers high-voltage shocks"

     

    http://bit.ly/KSsemH
    24 May 2012, 01:32 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9908) | Send Message
     
    Even after all these months and years, those subsidies still make my skin crawl. Would love to know how many (of our) dollars per Chevy Volt has been spent on advertising ($^%$#!!).

     

    ####

     

    On another note, I've oft wondered how wreckers are going to deal with lithium battery cars after a nasty accident. Appears there is a new tool coming out just for this reason...a battery "depowering tool."

     

    http://bit.ly/Ku4J5D
    24 May 2012, 02:01 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    Maya, Saw that the other day. I was thinking big ole resistor myself.
    24 May 2012, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    I have a new hero!

     

    It's a great article.
    24 May 2012, 02:11 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    John, I thought there was a possibility that you might just think it was your own oration coming back at you living near those rolling hills nearby!

     

    I had to confirm the author twice myself! :))
    24 May 2012, 02:20 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9908) | Send Message
     
    Well...I found the answer. Estimated that GM is spending $10,000/Volt in advertising.

     

    JP: You may have another hero with this article. Crazy stats, fraudulent stuff going on, like Jacksonville, because of all the subsidies, bought two Volts for a net price of $13,000 each

     

    Dealerships are selling Volts to other dealerships to get the $7,500 tax credit, further skewing downward the actual scant number of how many Volts have been sold.

     

    This bare bones article had my head spinning:

     

    http://bit.ly/MuXsSG
    24 May 2012, 02:32 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    Excellent article maya!

     

    I did find one point of contention, from my POV.

     

    This, "... willing to pay just about any price, even if the taxpayers are footing the bill" would have been so much more accurate if it had been written "willing to pay just about any price, ESPECIALLY if the taxpayers are footing the bill".

     

    HardToLove
    24 May 2012, 03:28 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (985) | Send Message
     
    iin

     

    great link...and the beat goes on, and no politicians are listening!
    24 May 2012, 05:06 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13507) | Send Message
     
    Correct. As soon as you answer their smiling question: "What can your government do for you?" with "Get out of my way!" their eyes glaze over and they look over your shoulder for a baby to kiss.
    24 May 2012, 05:17 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2737) | Send Message
     
    Not sure of the significance, but EGRO has been on or near the ask for several days now (they also often have more than the 5k shares they list as for sale at that price, it seems). As you may know, EGRO is Emerging Growth Equities, Ltd., one of the two placement agents for the recent direct placement of stock.

     

    On the bid side, they're down at 33 cents currently.
    24 May 2012, 01:57 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    I'd notice the EGRO. Didn't put it all together though.

     

    On another note, someone smarter than I made out this A.M.

     

    0.3311 305
    0.3311 750
    0.3311 125
    0.3311 750
    0.3300 125
    0.3598 1200
    0.3300 125
    0.3300 125
    0.3300 5000

     

    I congratulate and envy them! :-))

     

    Other than that, so far we're following the recent pattern - trades have moved slight higher as the day progressed and trade size got a bit larger too - currently 5,581. VWAP $0.3523 and vacillating around there currently, + a half penny or so.

     

    HardToLove
    24 May 2012, 02:18 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    HTL, I can tell you from the data that someone has a faster server than Fidelity. Or a better mm.
    24 May 2012, 02:33 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2737) | Send Message
     
    Yeah, that was a heckuva spread there at the open. Wonder if anyone here's gonna try to take advantage of that after today.

     

    Odd that my system doesn't show the 5000 shares at 33 cents. Was that pre-mkt?
    24 May 2012, 02:39 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    Nope, No pre-mkt.

     

    http://bit.ly/Lt494P
    24 May 2012, 02:42 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    I'll bet you a nickel that the .33s were all MM purchases that got flipped out for a couple pennies spread.
    24 May 2012, 02:53 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    The $0.33s were all "sells" going at the bid - so I suspect you're right.

     

    The other two? Uh-huh, "buys".

     

    HardToLove
    24 May 2012, 03:36 PM Reply Like
  • Articula
    , contributor
    Comments (250) | Send Message
     
    I've been out for about a week, looks like more good things happening whilst not affecting the price much. We must have a big seller out there lurking.

     

    Momentum on the biz side looks good, should be a fun summer!
    24 May 2012, 02:29 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1930) | Send Message
     
    "Goldman Sachs Group Inc plans to channel investments totaling $40 billion over the next decade into renewable energy projects, an area the investment bank called one of the biggest profit opportunities since its economists got excited about emerging markets in 2001."

     

    http://reut.rs/JMWHGV
    24 May 2012, 04:58 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    "Goldman executives said this week that demand for alternative energy sources will grow with global energy demand, and as big manufacturing countries, including China and Brazil, set more aggressive targets for reducing emissions. The bank plans to finance deals with clients' money and, to a lesser extent, its own funds."

     

    We think this is such a great idea that we are willing to spend our client's money on it! Our own money...well,...not so much!
    24 May 2012, 11:28 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1348) | Send Message
     
    Follow-up commentary on Goldman's announcement:
    Three Things Goldman Sachs 40b Investment in Greentech Means and Two it Doesn't
    http://onforb.es/KpGg1N
    29 May 2012, 11:09 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1930) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the link and update on that D Lane.
    29 May 2012, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    (AXPW): EOD
    Min. Pr: 0.3300, Max Pr: 0.3598, VW Avg. Trade Pr: 0.3524
    # Trds: 42, MinTrSz: 125, MaxTrSz: 40300, Vol 216877, AvTrSz: 5164
    # Buys, Shares: 19 85047, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.3551
    # Sells, Shares: 22 127830, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.3507
    # Unkn, Shares: 1 4000, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.3500

     

    Well, part of the recent trend held up pretty well, starting low (detailed in a comment above) with a move higher later into the day. Trade size didn't build though. We did have a 40.3K @ $0.3575 at 1:10:22 PM, but after that 7.7K was the largest.

     

    Nevertheless, we still maintained a very decent relative average trade size, which is in the higher range of what I used to consider normal.

     

    On the traditional TA front, we both opened and closed above yesterday's (ersatz) close of $0.3501 - remember that I called it suspicious and believed the real close was $0.3550). Even using my close we still had a higher open and close. Moreover, today's closing price was "real" - the 200 share last trade matched the prices at which trades had been going off.

     

    The VWAP today is within a quarter-penny of my "real" close of yesterday and +2.66% above the ersatz close. Hm , maybe that explains yesterday's suspicious trades - setting up to show a nice move for today?

     

    We have a "Dragonfly Doji" candlestick, which is decidedly indecisive :-)) unless you are in a down trend. So we just have a continuation of the indecisive sentiment indicated with yesterday's action. I don't know if I should consider discounting those $0.33xx trades since they were such a small part of today's action ... Nah! Once you start seriously jiggering the numbers, where does it end? Let's just note that they may be less significant than normally due the the "one time" occurrence and low volume.

     

    After that opening salvo, the lowest price was $0.34 (only two trades) and all the rest were $0.35 or greater.

     

    Most of the oscillators showed small improvement (all out of oversold now) except MFI, which weakened and moved slightly back into oversold. I believe this is just an effect of today's lower volume after yesterday's "spike" though.

     

    Our volume held decent, considering it followed a "spike" and was accompanied by a slightly improved VWAP (+$0.0004 LoL!). I can't call it great follow-through, but I can't call it a negative indicator either.

     

    For the entertainment of all, I again call $0.37 tomorrow! :-))

     

    I'll probably keep doing so until I'm right! :-))

     

    Tomorrow is a Friday before a long weekend (thanks DRich for reminding me) and we often have what I term a "Flat Friday". So tomorrow might be "bleh".

     

    I'll stop here and only add that my experimental chart stuff still suggests to me that there's little downside risk at present.

     

    But keep in mind that the data is still limited and it is experimental, as am I.

     

    HardToLove
    24 May 2012, 05:21 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (985) | Send Message
     
    A facetious attempt re iindelco, maya subsidies links above...NO INTENT to go OT re politics!

     

    Montana Bear Tragedy

     

    This is a very sad story about a bear... Everybody should heed the warnings not to feed wildlife because they become dependent and don't forage for themselves any longer. It is such a tragedy to see what has been done to our country's wildlife. The photo below captures a disturbing trend that is beginning to affect U.S. wildlife.

     

    (Unable to link picture...a black bear sitting at a picnic table waiting to be served)

     

    Animals that formerly were self-sufficient are now showing signs of belonging to the Democratic Party. They have apparently learned to just sit and wait for the government to step in and provide for their care and sustenance.

     

    This photo is of a black bear in Montana turned Democrat. He's nicknamed Bearack Obearma. It is believed that he has become a campground organizer.
    24 May 2012, 05:30 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13507) | Send Message
     
    I've seen that photo...

     

    He was wearing an ACORN tshirt...

     

    Or maybe he was just a hairy guy with no fashion sense.
    24 May 2012, 05:34 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    Magounsq: Did you try right-clicking the picture and picking "Copy link location", or similar from the drop-down menu?

     

    Then you can past the link as normal.

     

    If you got it here,

     

    http://bit.ly/JNaKfm

     

    the above process yields this,

     

    http://bit.ly/JvkBCI

     

    HardToLove

     

    Edit: Here's a bigger picture http://bit.ly/LejiuT

     

    from http://bit.ly/LkrJRV
    24 May 2012, 05:54 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    magounsq, Unbearable to post but I'll do it. This one?

     

    http://bit.ly/LehT7B
    24 May 2012, 05:49 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco, you've earned "Groanie" for that one!

     

    HardToLove
    24 May 2012, 07:50 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    HTL, Been getting a significant number or "Groanies" of late.

     

    Now, Lookin for that Memorial Day weekend enthusiasm. Come on .37! Sad huh.

     

    Actually I like this better as it better represents the accomplishments of both political parties.

     

    http://bit.ly/Lwfrsu

     

    Or maybe more fitting?

     

    http://bit.ly/JgjN3g
    24 May 2012, 08:16 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (985) | Send Message
     
    iindelco

     

    'ats the one!

     

    Thanks HTL...got it!

     

    Still learnin' the iPhone, iPad, digital pix and video transfers to sites and TV/PC.

     

    Good thing I have tech savvy kids!
    24 May 2012, 08:56 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (985) | Send Message
     
    iindelco

     

    I vote #2!
    Unless the second one is the bear "hiding" versus embarrassed.
    24 May 2012, 09:00 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: LoL at the first one.

     

    Started my day off right!

     

    TY sir!

     

    HardToLove
    25 May 2012, 06:24 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9464) | Send Message
     
    NASA paper on lead acid batteries. Second page point to a Chinese company claiming 12 year life for VRLA in standby use.

     

    http://bit.ly/JvRpvB

     

    Here is their site. Can't seem to open the spec. sheets for some reason.

     

    http://bit.ly/JALMAM
    24 May 2012, 08:38 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13507) | Send Message
     
    It probably takes those spec sheet files 6 months to open...

     

    Yep, a time warp would explain the 12 year VRLA standby specs...
    24 May 2012, 08:55 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    ok, here comes a stupid question. Does anyone see a way to delay the next dilution into 2013? Hoping that some possible way it can be avoided..

     

    Reason is i assume the stock price will get another jolt to he downside. now is there a senerio where the pice won't get affected much like the last one.

     

    Thanks
    map
    24 May 2012, 09:54 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    MAP - I offered you a $5 bet on not below .40 pps you would have won. I'll bet you $100 to a dozen doughnuts that it cannot be avoided although if sales were to ramp with significant revenue in 2012 and Q1 2013 it might be delayed beyond Q1 2013. Many believe they will do a capital raise in Q4 2012 to avoid waiting until the last minute in Q1 2013

     

    Like this year the price will probably be a 10% discount to some moving technical average over a number of days (maybe 60) before the transaction. The 10% discount may be greater, that is what it was this year. So price per share in general before the capital raise will effect the price

     

    The most recent 10Q said Q1 2013. Later 10Q's in 2012 may change that date forward or backwards depending on their working capital needs and available funds (cash, Receivables, etc). I will let JP explain why the dilution is to the new shareholders and not existing shareholders, but principally because book value goes up but pps goes down.

     

    Anyone with a different answer blast away.
    24 May 2012, 10:27 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4597) | Send Message
     
    >bangwhiz ... JP's explanation of "dilution" is quite correct but many novice shareholders make no consideration of the company beyond that number listed on their ticker.
    24 May 2012, 10:59 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2760) | Send Message
     
    Dilution occurs to our ownership stake percentages while there is accretion to book value (ie we own less of the entity but the entity is on stronger footing). However DRich is right PPS is what most care about here.

     

    The good news is that we are a year deeper into testing and presumably a year closer to OEM revenues thus I'd have trouble thinking that the price goes lower than .30. Unless some think those in the last placement have changed their minds and want to sell at a loss in the face of increasingly positive news. Not to mentions many of the remaining elephants will have left the room by 2013,
    24 May 2012, 11:10 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    Bangwhiz,
    Sounds about right, though I keep hoping that the next capital raise will be larger than just what is needed to keep the lights on for another year. When I see them do a capital raise to pay for three new Gen3 lines, then I'll be there singing the praises of dilution.
    24 May 2012, 11:38 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    You and me both Labtech!
    25 May 2012, 12:11 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4135) | Send Message
     
    BW, I think your timeline is likely off and a capital raise, if it occurs this year, more likely to occur in Q3 than Q4. I also think TG will be remiss if he fails to pursue use of different investment bankers and/or different marketing mechanisms.than used with the last raise.
    25 May 2012, 12:26 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    Companies almost never raise money in Q-3 because of summer vacation schedules. You may spend Q-3 doing some legwork, but the money doesn't show up till the fall.
    25 May 2012, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Ok, Thanks for the thoughts..

     

    Map
    24 May 2012, 11:28 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    MAP> You can expect several more capital raises. Building out Axion's desired PbC electrode lines to desired capacity in New Castle alone is going to cost roughly $50M. Then if they built a second facility in Europe for instance many millions more. Those who dream of a billion dollar enterprise need to accept the capital required to run a billlion in sales. Worry about revenue and pps, not dilution however you view it.
    25 May 2012, 12:18 AM Reply Like
  • jpau
    , contributor
    Comments (831) | Send Message
     
    I don't mind more cap raises, I'll just be glad when we quit doing them for less than a soda per share.
    25 May 2012, 12:44 AM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    BANG...That dilution will come because of sales. Thats fine with me. I feel this next one is just to keep the lights on. Big difference..

     

    Thanks
    MAP
    25 May 2012, 12:59 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1693) | Send Message
     
    A stock sale does not necessarily mean more stock float on the open market, or a lowered price.

     

    Recently POSCO bought 20,000,000 shares of FCEL at 1.50 so FCEL could expand production enough to feed POSCOs need for fuel cells. 1.50 was above market price and POSCO is not about to sell their shares.

     

    AXION can be in the same position as FCEL with a large partner that needs their production. AS JP, I believe, has said...selling shares to feed production is not the same as selling shares to feed hungry creditors.
    25 May 2012, 01:00 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2639) | Send Message
     
    Wouldn't it be nice if BMW did that for Axion ...
    25 May 2012, 01:10 AM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1136) | Send Message
     
    yes, but what if they asked for exclusive S/S right for X amount of time? potential phase 2 funding late 2013 might help financing terms.
    25 May 2012, 01:20 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1693) | Send Message
     
    FCEL didn't give POSCO rights and neither will AXION if they understand where they are in the organizational development cycle (which I believe the will).

     

    The organizational development cycle follows specific stages; the first three being 1) Survival, then 2) The Initial Acceptance of Product or Service Efficacy, and 3) The General acceptance of Efficacy and the Beginning of Reputation.

     

    The price beating or premium depends on the stage, and negotiatig skill.
    25 May 2012, 09:28 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    Since I haven't mentioned it in a while, it's probably worthwhile to remind the Axionistas that earlier in his career Tom spent 10 years as the lead national labor contract negotiator for the elevator industry.
    25 May 2012, 10:00 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3446) | Send Message
     
    I know this is somewhat covered ground, but with a good six month lead time to work with now, any chance that a rights offering (?) could work?
    25 May 2012, 01:40 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    OT: Slightly humorous. Someone at IV wondered if batteries could be used to store enough energy to take a big rug (or even a big rig - my typo deserved to be left here this time) up and down the mountains.

     

    One of the folks jumped all over it and calculated ~$150M for the batteries to do that.

     

    http://bit.ly/LygnwD

     

    So, if we apply the "bigger fool" theory to some truck manufacturer and succeed, APXW might be all set. :-))

     

    HardToLove
    25 May 2012, 06:33 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    I always love calculations like that, but the commenter missed one tiny detail, he forgot to include the mass of the batteries in the mass he wanted to move over the mountain pass.

     

    That being said, I think there's an error somewhere in the calculation because 500,000 kWh seems way too high if your goal is to lift 60,000 kg 3,000 meters.

     

    The online energy and work converter at http://bit.ly/MMFQEJ says it takes 2.724 watt hours to lift a metric ton one meter. At that rate, lifting a 60 ton load 3,000 meters would consume 493.2 kWh.

     

    I'll leave it to our engineers to come up with the correct figures.
    25 May 2012, 06:44 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    JP: I'm sure we could find some minimal speed to be maintained that push the HP requirements enough to tell the customer he needed $150M in batteries right? :-))

     

    A "Power" battery for sure!

     

    HardToLove
    25 May 2012, 06:58 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    Actually you might be right if you figure that the batteries to lift 60 tons 3,000 meters would probably weigh 59 tons in their own right.

     

    Under that scenario the marginal contribution to lifting the load would only be 1 ton per 500 kWh of storage.

     

    I suspect that $150 M for 30 MWh of useful storage capacity may be a little steep, but it's probably the right order of magnitude by the time you include BMS and power electronics
    25 May 2012, 07:14 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17878) | Send Message
     
    Trying to ride the (TSLA) gravy train again ...

     

    Yesterday, the third day of the expected 3-day cycle from a "pop", pps and volume seemed to be acting as expected. This suggests a return to the larger trend down that was occurring before the announcement of deliveries to start to a select few on 6/22.

     

    After hemming an hawing a bit, a less-risky *initial* small play (in case it doesn't act as expected) going long on near-date puts that return profit if pps does continue down seemed reasonable.

     

    Went long 5 6/16 $30 strike contracts at $1.85 ($1.8776 w/friction) at 15:50 yesterday when pps was $30.31-$30.35. This was much lower than the early day high, making the option more expensive, but I wanted to wait and confirm behavior before entering again. So I targeted what I thought would be a late-day recovery. It did then peak at $30.46 at 15:54.

     

    Initial *potential* exit point is $29.26, the bottom of a gap that "needs" filling (and they *very* often do get filled). This would yield, with an *initial* delta of ~44% and rising as pps declines and using a static implied volatility of 67.8%, ~17% (excluding friction) in 4 days if it took that long to hit and had no overshoot.

     

    However, with the current chart configuration, I expect a reasonable more likely target is ~$28.55 in no more than an extra few days. If it looks likely when $29.26 gets hit, I might try to ride it to there, yielding ~31.4% in just a few extra days.

     

    If the down move looks likely to come to fruition, I'll add another 5 contracts at (what I hope is) an attractive intra-day high.

     

    The first contract profit, if we get to $28.55, would pay for another 3,779 shares af (AXPW) at $0.35. If I get to 10 contracts at near the $1.85 price, about 7.5K AXPW could be bought with the proceeds.

     

    BTW, some might wonder why I don't just go short (or long at other times) on the underlying. Risk management. 500 x $1.85 is a lot less at risk than 500 x $29.50 (the intra-day low *if* I could've caught that). In exchange I take on time-value decay risk, but expected time to target is only a few days and this early in the expiration month the time decay is still relatively small ($0.17 over 4 days now and accelerates as expiration nears).

     

    HardToLove

     

    EDIT: P.S> Risk management exit is if pps hits $31.65 - exit take losses ~ <= $0.52/share, depending on when it hits.
    25 May 2012, 07:54 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    thanks for the lesson.
    25 May 2012, 08:26 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    HTL,
    I think I'll keep my day job in research. This stuff makes my head hurt! ;-)
    25 May 2012, 09:54 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30173) | Send Message
     
    You know things are bad when the world-renowned business journal Natu