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  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2302) | Send Message
     
    118 followers today. Still growing.

     

    APH, are you tracking and able to graph this statistic, as well as the comments?
    25 May 2012, 11:30 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    Still holding out to be No. 200
    25 May 2012, 11:33 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    DRich: Trying to be "fashionably late" are we? ;-))

     

    HardToLove
    25 May 2012, 12:23 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >H.T.Love ... Nah! I've already done my "fashionalbly" early & ticked close to the bottom for interest in this company. Now I'm waiting for the top. It's what we extremist do.
    25 May 2012, 12:44 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Gotta know what you're doing when you utilize stored energy.

     

    "2 men burned after battery explosion in southeast Oklahoma City"

     

    http://bit.ly/LzRQXM
    25 May 2012, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13542) | Send Message
     
    I wonder if any of our trolls got singed...
    25 May 2012, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    YummMMMMmmmmmMMm!

     

    http://bit.ly/LnD5Ez
    25 May 2012, 01:02 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    TRIPLE

     

    I am still here!!! lol

     

    MAP
    25 May 2012, 01:18 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13542) | Send Message
     
    I wasn't talking about you, Ace. I thought we had put that myth to rest.
    25 May 2012, 01:22 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    You need to make sure to include the words "Lithium-ion" before the word battery. After all, we wouldn't want folks getting confused about those safety issues.
    25 May 2012, 01:36 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    Looks to me like we are at a bottom (short of bad news or a total market melt down) with a only few short excursions to .33-.34. About time for me to average down a little more.
    25 May 2012, 01:24 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13542) | Send Message
     
    I have been lurking at $.31 for some time now, but no joy...

     

    Maybe I will up my ante to $.33 soon...

     

    Hey, does this qualify as "chasing" the price up?

     

    LOL.
    25 May 2012, 01:40 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Bang, I think we have one or more of the latest PP participants that is willing to part with the remainder of their shares at 0.35 but unwilling as of yet to go under that. Just my guess but it sure seems like it.
    25 May 2012, 01:47 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >tripleblack ... Your strategy change could be considered "Recklessly Painting the Tape". Could cause a $0.0005 explosion in share price.
    25 May 2012, 01:47 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    DRich: such a big move would surely be considered a technical glitch and be unwound by the authorities!

     

    HardToLove
    25 May 2012, 01:50 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1171) | Send Message
     
    i moved up after two days of increasing volume and higher highs, lower lows.
    25 May 2012, 02:07 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    Yep Indelco, scraping what they can off the top and then moving on to the next discounted capital raise and quick flip. Not a bad strategy if you can turn over quarter mill or more a year 3-4 times. Then there is the occasionally unexpected upside to sweeten the pot. Frankly we need those jokers from time to time.
    25 May 2012, 02:07 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    HTL> Are you physically plugged into a UPS and external raid array? :>D
    25 May 2012, 02:14 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    yes, pesky red devil at that 0.35!
    25 May 2012, 02:23 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2800) | Send Message
     
    When I did some flipping back in the late 90's, it was mostly done with one brokerage house that had really good deal flow. Not sure if the two direct placement agents (Philadelphia Brokerage Corporation and Emerging Growth Equities, Ltd) have that kind of flow. Sure doesn't look like it:

     

    http://bit.ly/JibILx

     

    http://bit.ly/JibLXy

     

    If not, then either the flippers flip then stop flipping, or then transfer their $ to another brokerage house that has the flow or that they like better for whatever reason. I know that flipping then transfering was not exactly smiled upon by the brokerage houses I used, to say the least. Double negative. That behavior becomes self-limiting quickly, IMO.

     

    Anyway, I would think that Emerging Growth Equities clients that DID flip would do so thru EGRO as a mkt maker, and Philadelphia Brokerage Corporation's thru FRTH, unless some disguising was intended. But we haven't seen EGRO active on the best bid until recently, for the most part, and I haven't seen FRTH at all.

     

    The MM that has been most active on the best bid, for some time now and by far, has been AUTO. Could be the two placement agent's clients' selling has been mostly routed thru AUTO. I don't know. Maybe Blackrock's and other 2008 & 2009 deals' selling is routed that way. Also, TG was maybe saying that the recent deal participants were not flipping much.

     

    But, I'm not very knowledgeable in these matters. Perhaps someone who is could post a theory that much better describes who's selling?
    25 May 2012, 02:56 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    It makes no sense for a flipper to buy, hold for a few months and then sell at the same price. I believe whoever's selling at $.35 is probably a 2009 vintage holder that's grown tired of waiting. Without some pretty clear data points I'd be reluctant to try and identify a specific seller, but there can't be more than a couple with enough weight to sit on the price like we're seeing now.

     

    Since Blackrock is no longer a 5% holder it's unlikely that we'll see any further reporting from them. Since Manatuck never filed ownership reports, it's unlikely that we'll see anything from them either. Last year I could have called my contact at Manatuck, but he changed firms earlier this year and would be very reluctant to discuss their affairs.
    25 May 2012, 03:05 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    John, You are correct that it makes no sense. However, If the party had already gotten gains off the majority of their holdings and they just needed to clean house on the balance then they might decide to part with the remaining shares at .35 USD. Just one WAG of many.
    25 May 2012, 03:36 PM Reply Like
  • Lafferty
    , contributor
    Comments (253) | Send Message
     
    Reminder of the dangers of alliances with Chinese companies:

     

    Maxwell downgrade by Wedbush: "Industry sources indicate Lishen has been selling Lishen-branded UCaps and modules directly to Chinese customers in Wind and other markets, which we believe goes around the spirit of the original outsourcing agreement with Maxwell..."

     

    http://bit.ly/JzbUaB
    25 May 2012, 03:40 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Lafferty, Same thing happened to AONE with CBAK (China Bak Battery). It permeates their society.
    25 May 2012, 03:51 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3450) | Send Message
     
    American Superconductor still has a Sinovel knife in its back...
    25 May 2012, 04:06 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    After watching the way business is done in China I think the most sensible structure is *pay us a big pile of cash today and we'll give you an exclusive territorial license to our technology in China, but include iron clad provisions that prevent you from ever exporting products or otherwise competing with us outside your territory.*

     

    Anything seems to just be an invitation to love Folsom style.
    25 May 2012, 04:38 PM Reply Like
  • james222
    , contributor
    Comments (2) | Send Message
     
    Good news equals share price drop consistently....explain
    25 May 2012, 06:58 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    We have a standing expression - no good news goes unpunished. Mostly it was Special Situations and Quercus dumping their shares anytime volume increased on good news and this year flippers from the last capital raise are the presumed culprits.
    25 May 2012, 10:57 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Going to get away from it all this weekend. A small marina on Canyon Ferry Lake near Helena, MT. Hope you all find a nice place to spend the weekend.

     

    Gratitude/honor to our fallen brothers and sisters, may you rest in peace...
    25 May 2012, 07:16 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    I had posted this presentation on brand x and I'm pretty sure I remember it being covered here as well. Just wanted to post it again for those that may have missed it because slides 78, 79 and 81 are the best slides I've ever seen to indicate a view of how the market leader sees the auto industries needs being met with challenges also mentioned.

     

    http://bit.ly/KqgDwO

     

    A couple points of interest for me. Note on slide 78 the comments on carbon additives to the negative plate, JCI is a member of the ALABC and this presentation was given the middle of last year. So Exide's carcon enhanced offering is FAR from validated. From what I can see JCI (via Varta) does not use carbon additives in their offerings for enhanced flooded for low end and AGM for high end SS systems. On slide 79 note the comparison between AGM and carbon anode pie chart grading system. First they left off life for what is Axions offering. WE KNOW where that should fall but it is true that Axion is not in series production so perhaps they feel it should not be shown (as it would make them look bad Uhum). Also note they give AGM a pretty good rating in the category compared to what we are seeing as feedback from some automotive message boards and a few first hand observations from some of the participants here. Finally on the same slide note usable energy. Yes AGM is better at birth but for how long? And if you can't get it in fast enough due to the charge acceptance dropping off so what. Also how much do you really need for hotel loads anyway. You're sure not going to use it all and drain that AGM battery down 70%. You'll kill it.

     

    Anyway, I love these slides and they are right out of the top bananas own mouth. Just more validation for me why the auto companies are sniffing around New Castle.
    25 May 2012, 07:37 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2893) | Send Message
     
    Nice link and chart from last Summer. Seems disingenuous though that they don't give the PBC a grade for cycle life and they also seem to short change the "usable energy". Hopefully this year's presentation goes into deeper detail on why (or why not) they'd choose AGM over AGM with carbon electrodes. I'd think PBC costs can come way down if they were to scale and be manufactured at one of JCI's plants that do 5M+ batteries a year. Since a plant costs 100-200M to build Axion will need to play nice with these big boys to get the scale needed to serve this S/S market that will be in full force by 2015.
    26 May 2012, 02:00 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    To a hammer manufacturer everything looks like a nail.
    26 May 2012, 02:08 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    The most disingenuous part of the useable energy metric is the reality that the stop-start duty cycle doesn't use more than a couple percent of the battery's total energy.

     

    The BMW-Ford duty cycle is 39,600 watt-seconds per engine off event. (50 amps x 12 volts for 60 seconds plus 300 amps x 12 volts for one second).

     

    A 50 Amp hour AGM battery has a total energy of 2,160,000 watt-seconds (50 amps x 12 volts x 60 minutes x 60 seconds)

     

    As long as a battery can efficiently deliver the energy required for the duty cycle and recover the required SOC rapidly, total energy is meaningless.
    26 May 2012, 02:21 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    iindelco,
    Thanks for providing that link. Sometimes more can be gleaned from what is left out (conveniently omitted so not to confuse the audience with too much material), than what is in the the information presented.
    26 May 2012, 05:30 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    metro, Then when you couple those slides with this form it just makes you smile.

     

    "My opinion? BMW are hiding something.

     

    I have just returned from a dealer after arguing with the service reception for 30 mins over this very issue. :evil:

     

    I have an 08 118d se from new. 52,000 miles. For 2.5 years the auto start stop has worked exactly how expected with only the very occasional failure to shut off in traffic, but that would usually be because it had just gone through half a dozen off-on routines (therefore understandable).

     

    For the past 6 months however, it has not shut off at all, and just like mentioned above, if I pulled up at home switched off and continued to listen to the radio for no more than 2 mins or so, the amber battery warning would trigger.

     

    So it went in for its first MOT today and I asked if the auto start stop could be looked at. Sure enough and again exactly the same as above “we've put it on the charger sir”. So here's where the discussion starts something along these lines:
    “Do you do short journeys?”
    “No generally 15 miles minimum – 30 – 40 mins. In fact last weekend I drove 180 miles to Wales for 3 hours continuously and it didn't shut off when I came to the first set of traffic lights.”
    “That's probably not enough to charge the battery fully......”"

     

    http://bit.ly/GACnSE

     

    See, Energy density can mean something in SS. If you have poor charge acceptance you can go to the dealer and have them charge the battery and you'll be OK for a couple days before you have to do it again. If you didn't have more energy density you'd have to do it every day! ;))

     

    OK JCI, Bite the bullet and mark those battery performance categories accurately to reflect how the different designs really perform. Or you can put in a little ( * ) next to your SS offerings and state "With trickle charge as needed."

     

    Now take that Bimmer out of the balmy English country side and put it in AZ and see how long you make it before your SS system goes into sleep mode. Need to check and see if the EV stations they are installing in the US have AMG trickle charge settings!!

     

    Let the industry get a few million of these out there before people start noticing some smart guys posting like this in the US and see where this leads to.
    26 May 2012, 08:38 AM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9984) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: Nice find. I can't recall if it was five months or eight ago, I looked into stop/start complaints; there were none I could find. Now, in the past few days, we've located a couple of sites and are seeing the first of stop/start complaints now starting to trickle in.

     

    These complaints, as they increase in numbers and become more widespread, bode well for Axion's PbC's ability to outshine other AGM batteries when it comes to rapid charge acceptance, and durability.
    26 May 2012, 09:24 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Striving to keep pace with iindelco and maya, went to the uk mini (mini made by BMW) forum and found several threads on failure of stop/start. One thread linked below:

     

    http://bit.ly/MPsO9x

     

    It seems almost BMW policy to have the service representative to tell the person making the complain that the stop/start fails to work because they don't drive correctly. I'm sure that accusation has raised a few hackles.
    26 May 2012, 11:33 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Maya, The sites are there and I've seen some rambling for some time. There are two difficulties that are slowing our ability to use such information to assess how the consumer is going to handle this in Europe.

     

    First not too many users are very tech. savvy. As such when I find such forms the ability to communicate what is happening based on how the car is being used is very poor to say the least. Oh, and the manufacturers are not going out of their way to say anything other than things like you're not driving it far enough.

     

    Well isn't city driving usually inefficient transport because you're stopping all the time. And isn't this the type of driving that the manufacturers are touting as being where you save the most. Well yeah, You save a bundle for the first few months until you can't charge the battery unless you want to keep trickle charging it at home. Err umm, Where do I find an outlet to do this in cities and apartments? Well, I guess you can keep driving it to the dealer. That'll save you tons of petrol.

     

    Second, and I know you had a king of joke about this, many of us d--b a-- Americans only speak one language. As such it's hard for us to scan the multilingual EC and find a lot of information because we don't have the correct tool set.

     

    In the end, given the power of the internet, stiffing people with inappropriate technology is going to come back and bite these fellows. And the US is a far more tenacious environment when it comes to consumer activism. And as I pointed out it's far warmer here in many areas so things should heat up quicker. Not to mention we'd be glad to add to the conversation if we bump into a form discussing the issue!
    26 May 2012, 11:34 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4204) | Send Message
     
    iindelco > http://bit.ly/GACnSE

     

    Nice find! Other comments I enjoyed on the site include,

     

    "Yep. Me too. Got AUC in Dec'11. Auto stop/start hasnt operated once. Read in handbook that it wont operate if the car is being heated or cooled, so that's most of the year taken care of it seems. Is the true purpose of this device to enable unreal fuel consumption claims to be made in the paralell universe that few of us occupy?"

     

    "Stop/Start will only operate if the temperature is above 3 degrees."

     

    Could be wrong but I take the later comment to mean 3 degrees C.
    26 May 2012, 12:12 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    I spoke at a channel partner's meeting for a battery charger manufacturer earlier this year. One of the more interesting tidbits I heard is that the battery is the only component that no first tier manufacturer will put its brand on. They've spent years becoming masters of a game where the automaker blames the battery and the battery manufacturer blames consumer's driving behavior.

     

    It's been an easy game to play in the past, but it will be harder to play with micro-hybrids because the technologies are being implemented as fuel efficiency and emissions control measures that allegedly comply with regulatory mandates.

     

    The question that puzzled me most at ELBC 12 was "Why would BMW and Ford stand up and tell the world that their mechanical systems don't function as advertised because they best available batteries can't stand up to the load?"

     

    Seriously, isn't that a lot like saying the catalytic converter will foul itself out within a few months?

     

    The only reason I can see to make such a damning admission is to send a clear message that "we've found a solution to this problem, but we need more time to complete our normal product validation protocols and ramp this new solution to relevant scale."

     

    Can anybody come up with a plausible alternative explanation of why the best in the business would publicly trash their own technology?
    26 May 2012, 12:14 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    metro, My favorite from your link.

     

    "....If you take it for a good drive after work then leave it over night the following morning take a longer route to work and after a few miles come to a stop and give it a try, it should work. I drove 13 miles home once and it didn't work on 7 occasions, turned it off and left it over night, the next morning I did 2 miles then stopped and it kicked in....."

     

    If you drive more than you need to it'll turn off, sometimes, and save you some petrol. Oh boy. I can see more than a few lawyers in the US salivating over this one. I can hear it now.

     

    "So Mr. BMW rep. can you please explain to me why you emphasized the city driving cycle as the most appropriate use for this car and pointed out how the system would yield the most savings for the consumer under such a use profile."

     

    I'd sure pay for a pull ahead program to hear that answer. It better not be "The owners not using it right" or "Told em' to keep an eye on it more closely so it would really p--s em off." :-))

     

    And BMW falls more into the luxury category where perception is everything. The better move Axion to the double acceleration program.
    26 May 2012, 12:27 PM Reply Like
  • jpau
    , contributor
    Comments (865) | Send Message
     
    I worry a little that if S/S is offered as a $300 option with AGM, and works like crap, that people will sour on the idea and not want it by the time PbC finally becomes an option. Perceptions can last a long time, valid or not.
    26 May 2012, 12:38 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    D-inv, Yeah, Europe is celsius. 3 deg. C = 37.4 deg. F

     

    A parallel universe! Don't give em any ideas, they will use it as an excuse. "Oh, Well, We thought you lived in the parallel universe where it works all the time."

     

    "Ja Herr Reithofer (BMW CEO), Wir haben noch den Kraftstoff sparen Kreditkarte für Boot Anker."
    26 May 2012, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    Ford is offering stop-start as an option this year but most of the OEMs are simply including it as standard equipment as one element of an efficiency package. Slide 66 in the JCI Analyst Day presentation identified nine first tier western automakers that three first tier Chinese automakers that had adopted new stop-start production plans within the preceding 12 months (prior to June 2011)

     

    http://bit.ly/KqgDwO

     

    The graph on slide 56 pegged planned stop-start production of 15 million cars in 2015 with another 7 million likely additions. Last week they came out and predicted 35 million cars by 2015.

     

    These adoption rates are nothing short of epic. I can hardly wait to hear what JCI tells the analysts this year.
    26 May 2012, 12:51 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    John, For me it was a clear message to the lead acid battery industry. "You guys don't have anything that works and if you don't come up with an affordable solution we'll force one on you."

     

    As I said before on brand x the automotive industry would love for the lead acid battery industry to come up with an affordable solution that works and that all of them can implement. This leaves their production capacity viable with enough players to keep the supply readily available and affordable. So far the major battery players are blowing smoke and BMW is testing alternatives.

     

    Between the old line lead acid battery players, the automotive OEW's and the alternate battery chemistry suppliers we have one heck of a Mexican standoff. Axion via the PBC and the two players with the Ultrabattery could initiate some real shooting with the right production capacity and alignments.

     

    The OEM's are masters at getting suppliers to fight it out. That's what I feel Ford and BMW initiated.
    26 May 2012, 01:05 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    As my German is almost nein existent: Google translation of the above resulted in:

     

    We do not have to save fuel credit card for boat anchors.
    26 May 2012, 01:05 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    So much for Google translate. It was supposed to be "We get the same credit for boat anchors."

     

    I'll not do that again. There is a reason why they offer professional translation services!
    26 May 2012, 01:18 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    A shot across the bow makes sense in an odd way. Mercifully I don't share your concern over the competitive threat from the Ultrabattery because they keep showing performance using gentler HEV cycle regimes instead of the standard that BMW and Ford put in front of the industry.

     

    If the Ultrabattery performed well in the duty cycle, they'd be showing the results just like Axion is.
    26 May 2012, 01:59 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    I found the presentation on page 61 interesting. Why? Because I think of the effect on demand for PcC, or an equivalent solution, as s/s ramps from 8% (2010) of vehicles to 52%-55% in the next 3.5 years or so.

     

    Assuming that AGM and lead paste solutions (or other things we haven't encountered that would suit) don't do any better than they are currently doing, the number of complaints, first from consumers and later from regulators, would force someone to adopt PbC for both PR and regulatory reasons (as John has pointed out in the past - "best available" technology will be required).

     

    The unknown, for me, is what part of the 52%-55% is light, medium and heavy? If most of it's light, they might be able to scrape by from what I think I understand. The the PbC sales could be expected to be much less that the growth in s/s alone would suggest.

     

    Trying to predict revenues from adoption 3.5 years and beyond can't be easy, but maybe we can get a ballpark figure by applying the distribution among the three classifications. I'd assume economic conditions should be viewed as "muddling though" at best during this early period.

     

    HardToLove
    26 May 2012, 02:18 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    John, I threw the Ultrabattery in as an unknown. It should be better. But how much over a reasonable charge/discharge range for SS? Don't know. The lead negative will still suffer sulfation but the capacitive side would mask some of this weakness in some apps. Also don't know the cost. Could be it's better but not enough to justify the cost adder. And if you still need a two battery system why eat chicken when you can have seafood.

     

    Just didn't want to disregard it entirely. Sure wish I knew more about it but we know why cards are held close to the chest.

     

    One thing we do know is that NS tested the Ultrabattery next to the PBC for the NS999 and OTR apps. They chose the PBC. This does say a lot because the Ultrabattery should have better energy density given it's additional active material. Obviously this didn't offset its weakness over the longer term vs PBC for that app. Means quite a bit actually.
    26 May 2012, 02:41 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    An article I wrote in February included a graph from Lux that broke the market down into light, medium and heavy and showed a 5 year ramp rate for each tier. Using the Lux ratios and the JCI ramp rate, we're looking at demand for 6 million heavy micro-hybrids a year by 2015.
    26 May 2012, 02:44 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3450) | Send Message
     
    And it's fun to think how if PbC were in half of those, that it would mean 3 million electrode sets per year... and at 100 bucks per set, well that would be $300 million revenue a year. And that would be, uh, nice.
    26 May 2012, 02:57 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco; Check the posts by jtaylor and alberts on page 2 - these are our very own folks. And they've given links too.

     

    So, if the bimmer folks are serious, they should start pummeling BMW about the ears with that information.

     

    HardToLove
    26 May 2012, 03:11 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    HTL, Right now from what I can see the BMW mini is a light. From what little we can see from the one site metro posted the owners of the mini are seeing poor performance from current battery tech. in SS in this app.

     

    So maybe carbon additives help. But in the same presentation I pointed out the fact that as of last June JCI indicated carbon additives have problems. OK, so let's say Exide thinks they have found a way around the problems JCI is referring to. How long does it take to validate battery tech.? If we use Axion as a case study and the Exide lead carbon additive cannot be rationalized to expedite the timeline based on the work others have done, the battery might just be becoming ready by your 3-4 years out. They just recently presented the technology and it was presented as a hybrid solution not a one battery or hybrid SS solution.
    26 May 2012, 03:16 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    Caught this link from a comment JP made in another of his articles.

     

    http://bit.ly/K2autV

     

    Extrapolating that, maybe 400K vehicles (the "heavies) *might* have PbC over the next 3.5 years *if* the OEMs capitulate.

     

    HardToLove
    26 May 2012, 03:25 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    All I was considering was the potential market for PbC using the raw growth numbers and looking for assumptions we might make to guesstimate revenue.

     

    I found a comment by JP (linked above) that seems to give a ballpark figure we could use as a "high end" for 2016, making assumptions about some things going right.

     

    HardToLove
    EDIT: or linked below - can't tell for sure.
    26 May 2012, 03:29 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2893) | Send Message
     
    Yup, It all depends on the "heavy" segment growing robust and if Axion get a nice chunk of it. It seems reasonable that we will get a 10% chunk just from the BMW relationship alone. Some might say we end up with a much larger slice. It's my hope that it will be a large pie.
    26 May 2012, 03:46 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    HTL, Understood. I'm just finding it hard to select what technologies are available in LAB's and steer them into the three categories. What I'm seeing right now is that what is available in series production besides lithium, NIMH and possibly LAB/Ultracapacitor would not work very well even in the light category (for me that means 5 to 6 years). And even the latter of the three is not a great solution given the impact of PSOC on the LAB. Oh, and all three are very expensive.

     

    I Need to look at the JP article.
    26 May 2012, 03:47 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    I think it's more like 600K vehicles for each 10% market penetration. Frankly I'd be a bit crestfallen if we didn't get closer to a third.
    26 May 2012, 03:48 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    IINDelco,
    Someone posted a link to a BMW user website in the UK a while back. Same complaints and same song and dance from the dealers. One of our group wrote an explanation of what was going on and why and it seemed that the group there understood. They weren't happy about the explanation, but they seemed to get it at least.
    26 May 2012, 10:34 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Labtech!

     

    Good to know someone here pointed out some of the reasons for the battery issues to the group. For non technical and even technical people that don't understand certain areas of automotive getting the run around at some car dealers/maintenance shops can be pretty darn frustrating. I'm sure it drives the above board people/businesses crazy when they hear it because it unfortunately reflects on the industry.

     

    I typically take care of my mothers car so she doesn't have to deal with some of the unsavory people in the industry.
    26 May 2012, 10:48 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (990) | Send Message
     
    inndelco

     

    I can see why so many commenters were anxious to get your input on SA!
    Impressive.

     

    Now...can the BMW/German culture and BMW extreme due diligence approach finally yield to the AXPW technology given they've blown it thus far?...(S&S)
    27 May 2012, 09:20 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    magounsq, I think you can sense my anal retentive interest in this area. lol

     

    Not so sure BMW or German culture have really slowed down the adoption of PBC in auto apps. It's the nature of large scale industry to proceed cautiously when adopting new technology. It just takes a long time to fully test technology given the complex variables imparted by the system, natural elements and humans. And when you think of the implications of getting something wrong when your intent is to roll it out on a large scale (possibly millions to hundreds of millions of units) you can respect the cautionary posturing.

     

    I've witness many many recalls with the largest being in the half billion USD range. Trying to describe it is like the difference between reading about being in a jungle and being shot at vs experiencing it. Words just will not do justice to how ugly it really is.
    28 May 2012, 10:40 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    iindelco -

     

    Where did you find this sentence?

     

    "Ja Herr Reithofer (BMW CEO), Wir haben noch den Kraftstoff sparen Kreditkarte für Boot Anker."

     

    Neither my mother (whose from Munich) or I can make sense of it. Almost appears to be two sentences jammed together ...

     

    Yes, Mr. Reithoffer - We still have benzine (gas). Save the credit card for the boat ???

     

    Unless, its some slang that I don't get.
    28 May 2012, 05:32 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Stefan, I tried to kind of explain in a subsequent message that I used Google translate and it didn't do a very good job. The extent of my humor was to kind of put forth a scenario where an employee of BMW explains that even though the battery is functioning as a boat anchor the company will still get credit (for the increased fuel efficiency).

     

    I am really sorry for the confusion that I caused using that translator. It was in poor judgement.
    28 May 2012, 05:44 PM Reply Like
  • battman
    , contributor
    Comments (373) | Send Message
     
    ndelco, it was not poor judgement, it just got lost in the translation (literally). Keep'em coming.
    28 May 2012, 06:18 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    battman, Yeah it kinda was. I've used the service many times in the past to read news from other countries and the translations are pretty poor. You can generally get the flavor of an article but will recognize pretty quickly why companies hire professionals to translate material.

     

    So I should have known. Alas, at least I didn't intentionally look to waste someones time so I guess I can claim poor judgement. Live and learn.
    28 May 2012, 06:52 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    haha, no worries. Good stuff! I was trying to catch up and didn't pick up on that ... like Battman said, keep'em coming ... I'll be the first to admit that I am I little dense and jokes go right over my head, lol.
    28 May 2012, 08:33 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Stefan, Thank you so much for your understanding. Please apologize for me to your mother for my inappropriate use of technology.

     

    If you can keep it in the eventual context, give her a good laugh as well.
    29 May 2012, 12:16 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    iindelco - you are far too gracious. We already had a good laugh!
    29 May 2012, 12:58 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2302) | Send Message
     
    "What Happened to A123?
    Once the rising star of the clean-tech industry, the advanced battery maker faces an uncertain future."

     

    MIT Technology Review article. http://bit.ly/JDadO9
    25 May 2012, 10:57 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    First Ener1 now A123. When will these companies learn that you don't invest your money in a company (A123 $23 million into Fisker) just for the right to sell your batteries to them at a loss!
    25 May 2012, 11:25 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    This article from Design News does a good job of putting the challenges of battery technology development in context:

     

    http://bit.ly/KBc7ft;
    26 May 2012, 02:25 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    I think it's fascinating to see the way the lithium-ion battery industry is trying to spin the failures as successes from the taxpayer perspective:

     

    http://bit.ly/K39XFK

     

    Who cares if the risk investors lose all their money as long as the factories remain and somebody else will buy them out of bankruptcy put them into production?
    26 May 2012, 02:28 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    I get the feeling you will be adding this link to many of your future comments.
    26 May 2012, 06:28 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    JP,
    I did a simple google search for "frequency regulation, grid, How to solve" and your 2008 SA article appeared as the first choice. I reread the article. It is interesting to look at this area 4 years later. Also interesting that only 15 comments appeared.

     

    What ever happened to the NY City PowerCube demonstration project? I thought I remembered something about a demonstration years ago, but can't remember why the idea fell apart.
    26 May 2012, 06:56 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    The NYSERDA project involved a prime contract between NYSERDA and Gaia Power Technologies, and a subcontract between Gaia and Axion.

     

    http://prn.to/LQ2TPK

     

    Gaia didn't survive the 2008 crash and without a prime contractor the subcontract fell apart. It really was a shame because in addition to the DCEC project, there was a second project at CUNY in the works that bit the dust at the same time.
    26 May 2012, 07:07 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    JP,
    Thanks for the clarification.
    26 May 2012, 08:05 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    I liked this statement: The failures of Ener1 and International Battery, and the troubles of A123 Systems, are business failures, not technology failures. Companies come and go. Corporate assets get bought, sold and reorganized. None of that should matter to taxpayers.
    26 May 2012, 01:53 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    Funny. If you read the Nature article on A123, and why they can't turn a profit, they pretty much sum it up "as" a technology failure and not a company failure. Granted the last $55 million debacle was a business failure, but the Nature article makes it pretty clear that the nano technology that A123 is using for its electrode is too expensive and they've never figured out a way to make it cheaper. Thus mass production doesn't help. Also the fact that no one has figured out how to make the porous separator cheaper is something that is standing in the way of all the Li-ion battery companies.
    26 May 2012, 10:51 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Polypore got clobbered when LG indicated recently they were going to invest in the separator business. We'll see what that does for pricing in the space.
    26 May 2012, 11:11 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    Of course one thing to keep in mind is that perhaps companies like PPO and others who make the porous separators don't really care if large Li-ion batteries cost too much to make. They have patented processes for their products and they are more interested in making profits. So what if their materials make EV batteries too expensive. They sell those same separators to battery makers for laptops and cell phones. If they bring the price down for the auto batteries, then they lose money when selling to the rest of the industry.
    26 May 2012, 11:17 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    That's the economic conundrum all battery manufacturers face. The most valuable battery I own is the 5 wh cell in my phone. The second most valuable is the 35 wh pack in my computer. I'd pay almost any price per watt hour for those two devices. If I was buying an e-bike and needed a 500 wh battery pack, I'd start to get concerned with cost per watt-hour. If I was buying an EV and needed a 25,000 wh battery pack I'd be real concerned with cost per watt-hour. If I was buying stationary storage and needed 500,000 wh, I'd be fighting hammer and tong over every penny.

     

    It's kind of funny that the applications the idealists love most are the ones that the manufacturers find least attractive.
    27 May 2012, 02:20 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    Interesting, European blog on frequency regulation ...

     

    http://bit.ly/JjBxuz
    25 May 2012, 11:49 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    Stefan,
    That article did a better job of explaining "pay for performance" frequency regulation better than any other I have read. Simple, but thorough.
    Thanks
    26 May 2012, 06:27 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Great quote today in The Telegraph this morning stating that a new Greek currency would quickly find parity with the Zimbabwean Dollar.

     

    ##

     

    An on the ground take on the economic crisis:
    In the 1990's Brazilians and Angolans were moving to Portugal by the droves. The Portuguese were working across the border on construction projects in Spain. Now the Brazilians are headed back for Brazil, the Portuguese are seeking jobs in Brazil and Angola and the Portuguese hospitals are fully staffed with Spanish nurses. The Spanish nurses take the jobs at lower salaries than what they could make in Spain, but there are no jobs there.
    26 May 2012, 04:53 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Sounds like a sustainable energy plan to me.
    26 May 2012, 08:46 AM Reply Like
  • Lafferty
    , contributor
    Comments (253) | Send Message
     
    I've been working on a comparison of the PbC and UltraBattery regarding cycle life, charge acceptance, and charge-time using apples-to-apples data (same cycling regimen).
    So I have a document I expect to post soon, but first I'm hoping that a couple of the more tech savy among us might agree to take a look at my work in private to make sure there are no glaring errors that would mislead, and to answer a couple questions that would help me complete the comparison. Please PM me if interested in helping.
    26 May 2012, 03:11 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Lafferty, I am not technical enough to help but am looking forward to reading your piece...
    26 May 2012, 09:44 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    While we're on the topic of SS in auto's I wanted to post this link which I've not reviewed for about a month. I had posted it on brand x and don't recall if it made it here. I had a nice conversation with Kirk on the topic and he provided some good insight but of coarse he is a gentleman and shared only what he could relative to PBC based on his former position.

     

    My primary interest at the time was in knowing that batteries are not linear in efficiency over their entire range of charge. Just like we know that their efficiency changes based on the rate of charge/discharge. Anyway, I found this report and it's very enlightening. I just had to lead in at the time with the following excerpt from the report;

     

    "These tests indicate that from zero SOC to 84% SOC the average overall battery charging efficiency is 91%, and that the incremental battery charging efficiency from 79% to 84% is only 55%. This is particularly significant in PV systems where the designer expects the batteries to normally operate at SOC above 80%, with deeper discharge only occurring during periods of extended bad weather. In such systems, the low charge efficiency at high SOC may result in a substantial reduction in actual available stored energy because nearly half the available energy is serving losses rather than charging the battery."

     

    http://1.usa.gov/LRDLbe

     

    Here is a link to the thread at brand x if anyone would like to see Kirk's response because it is very important to review in support of the conclusions one might draw from this. I'll not re-post his words for fear of using them out of context. The last thing I want to do is turn into Ohmy which is why I can't stand to frequent brand x any more. But boy do I miss the talks with Kirk and a few others on the board.

     

    http://bit.ly/LRDLbg

     

    This will get ya thinkin for sure! I'm still smiling post my scattered thoughts and Kirks input.
    26 May 2012, 05:55 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    In the PbC white paper there's a graph on page 7 that helps add some clarity on charge efficiency issues.

     

    It shows that resistance is lowest in the range from ±6 to ±11 volts, but climbs rapidly as the battery goes below 6 volts or above 11 volts. Since internal battery resistance is the enemy of round trip energy efficiency, keeping the battery in the sweet-spot SOC range is the most efficient use and taking the SOC too high or too low impairs round trip energy efficiency.

     

    I've just plumbed the complete depth of my knowledge on the issue.
    27 May 2012, 02:31 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    And it's the same for LAB's as well. Exactly where they don't want to spend their lives. At PSOC. But it's where the user wants them to be because they want to make sure the system can opportunity charge and they want the charging functions to be delivering the energy in the range where the storage device is most efficient.

     

    It's like carefully aiming to hit the bulls eye and always shooting yourself in the foot.
    27 May 2012, 08:37 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2302) | Send Message
     
    Could the greater charging efficiency at PSOC become an argument for using a 16V PbC in a 12V system and never charging it beyond 14V?
    27 May 2012, 11:29 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    That's the whole idea behind using a 16-volt PbC. When you take a 16-volt PbC down to an 80% state of charge and cycle it within a few percentage points of the target, its voltage will stay in the sweet-spot range of 12-V to 14-V for auto accessories. In addition, simply measuring the battery's voltage gives you an very accurate measure of the state of charge without counting watts in and out.
    27 May 2012, 11:58 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    It could for sure. But the 16V battery would cost more. Not necessarily because it has much more material but because it has more operations due to the added number of cells. This would also reduce the line capacity on the carbon electrode line.
    27 May 2012, 12:00 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    me too ...
    26 May 2012, 07:07 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Hey Bang, Went to your link collector site and didn't find this 2010 Gibson Barbee presentation under rail links. I like it because it shows the broad spectrum of batteries NS considered.

     

    http://bit.ly/JXgnI0
    26 May 2012, 10:25 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    You are an absolute jewell Iindelco!

     

    I had never seen the Barbee presentation because I try to avoid brand x when I'm not feeling masochistic.

     

    It's great to know that NS tested the PbC against NiMH, LiFePO4, NiMCl, fuel cells, two classes of lead acid batteries and the Ultrabattery before selecting the PbC. It sounds like they had a real horserace going for a while.

     

    To add a little more color, NiMCl is known as the Zebra battery and it's the molten salt chemistry that GE just built a factory in New York to produce. I've visited the former MES plant here in Switzerland and am impressed with the high availability of materials but frightened with the complexity of a ceramic battery that uses about a dozen different components in each cell.

     

    Lithium iron-phosphate is the chemistry that A123, Valence and BYD tout as a world beater.
    27 May 2012, 02:46 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    John, One of the things I've found hard is that even though I read the concentrators to a pretty high degree long before I joined SA I am not able to accurately assess if all of the stuff that went into the soup at brand x also made it here. Documents like these are nice to have reviewed when you're trying to better understand Axion for sure.

     

    It sure is an indicator of how cautious NS was before selecting Axion for round 2 on the NS999. Round 1 with the deep cycle LAB's was down right embarrassing. The players at NS and Penn State definitely didn't want to go through that again and after all the different battery types they tested and the delays that drove us all crazy (TG's grey hairs probably have grey hairs) they chose PBC. This with Penn State marching the party line on lithium ion.

     

    As for brand x. Yeah, I have just a little understanding of why you wouldn't want to frequent the asylum too often. 8-P
    27 May 2012, 07:55 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    Funny,
    I read that presentation when IINDelco posted it a long time ago. With everyone always talking about all the batteries that NS tested, I just assumed everyone here had already read it too.
    27 May 2012, 08:43 AM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Indelco - I added it this AM under rail. Now that you have made your wisdom available on SA I have never been back to Brand x - Thank God!
    27 May 2012, 09:05 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    I've always assumed that after the Version 1 debacle NS would not build Version 2 unless they had a very high level of confidence that it would succeed. NASA does long-term double redundant system testing all the time, but they're dealing with rockets and satellites. Seeing a comparable effort from a railroad suggests to me that they really want the battery solution to work and they're ready to get behind the concept in a big way if they can make it work.
    27 May 2012, 10:47 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... You have to know that Railroads are behind battery power in a big way. Look at the speed that the GreenGoat took off from prototype to 175 units in what ... 3 years. The normal development timeline for most anything in rails is prototype (1 year testing), demonstrator (a few units 3 years in vastly different working environs), adoption (a few more in heavy traffic 1-3 years), then orders. Not really a group of folks to latch on to things quickly. In fact the last thing I can think of that ripped through the industry in less than a decade was diesel electric. It even took longer than that to get rid of the caboose.
    27 May 2012, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    Please correct me if I'm wrong on this point, but it's my understanding that RailPower Technologies fooled around with a single Green Goat for a couple years before offering it for sale and that the 175 units RailPower sold in short order were destined for longer term demonstration projects by different roads under different conditions.

     

    I've read several articles that describe the initial green goat orders as testing and demonstration orders rather than implementation orders.

     

    If my understanding of what happened with the Green Goat is correct, then we should be looking at maybe a year of prototype testing on the first two NS units (although the scope of their double redundant lab testing might suggest that a shorter prototype period is appropriate) followed by larger scale demonstration testing by all of the major railroads.

     

    Dare we dream about 150 switchers and another 150 OTR units as the next phase?
    27 May 2012, 12:10 PM Reply Like
  • FocalPoint Analytics
    , contributor
    Comments (6025) | Send Message
     
    Ramp start in 2013 with the heaver volume starting in 2014 to 2015?
    27 May 2012, 12:16 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    It seems like a lot to hope for, but it fits with the reports we've read about Mr. Dantam mentioning 50 to 75 units for NS over five years.
    27 May 2012, 12:34 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... You are correct that the GG was prototyped for a several years prior to being put out. Unit sales of 175 is a huge number to consider as purely demonstrators. Attached is a list of locos produced and quantity (a little dated) and I'll let you make up your mind where demonstrator & production might lay. There is no real definition to the term.

     

    http://bit.ly/Luqkbi

     

    I would think that, with the small number of roads existing, 50 truly demonstrating would be a large number. I would think that, if successful, in the yard switching category only, that conversion would be on the order of 75-100 per year for a decade. In the OTR category I have no guess because I'm not sure just how they would be used. What would the consist look like A-B-A, A-B-B, A-B-B-A? In the Road-Switcher category I am still of the belief that the GreenGoat model will stand, because of the irregular service patterns, and could be the largest in the 100+ units per year. Truly, I don't know but it looks like a good sustainable business that will be consistent through any macro economy.
    27 May 2012, 12:45 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    The root of my thought process invariably goes back to my college studies in accounting that included a fair chunk of statistics. When I think of switchers or OTR units as expensive pieces of rolling stock, I want to minimize the number of units needed for a test. When I look at a nationwide rolling stock census of 21,400 OTR locomotives and 2,000 switcher and auxiliary units (excluding Canada and Mexico) I'm forced to a much larger testing and demonstration fleet if I want to end up with a statistically valid long-term study.

     

    If I put on my regulator's hat, I'd be skeptical of railroad claims that they're diligently testing a technology if they aren't using a statistically valid sample.

     

    Part of me thinks the Green Goat went from one prototype to orders for 175 units because that was the smallest number the railroads could sell as an honest and diligent effort.

     

    I don't claim to have the answer, but I have to wonder whether the railroads will even try to get away with small fleets of "compliance locomotives" if they know that critics will immediately dismiss a small sample as greenwash.

     

    Fun fun questions with no clear answers.
    27 May 2012, 01:01 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... I am no soothe-sayer either. My take on the number of GG's sold says "production" more than "demo" because of the number of smaller roads that jumped in. Port authorities, freight interconnects and the like as well as the majors. It is my opinion that the Railroads are not in the least bit interested in "compliance locomotives" or compliance at all. The GG experiment showed a hunger to reduce fuel & operating expense and that hunger has only grown. The only argument I have for smaller number of truly demonstrator locos would be that there are so many fewer managements to make a production decision.
    27 May 2012, 01:16 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    It should be fascinating to watch in any event.
    27 May 2012, 01:35 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (739) | Send Message
     
    If 175 was the number that satisfied before why not now?
    27 May 2012, 03:46 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    I had never seen the presentation, and found it very comforting to know the PbC was pitted against other chemistrys (sp) and came out ahead, at least for this application. Thanks iindelco
    27 May 2012, 03:49 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Bang, You da man!

     

    For the entry and the site. Good stuff.
    27 May 2012, 06:02 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    Bangwhiz,
    I go back periodically to see how many times OMY can talk to himself/herself in a row. It's kind of funny. Without IINDelco, me, and some others who have basically left the Yahoo site to come over here, all OMY and Sockpuppet can do is talk to themselves...over, and over, and over again! You will be happy to know that OMY does use your name to make a point every once in a while. Any time you, or anyone else on this concentrator say they sell some stock, OMY uses it as a reason to show why Axion is going to fail!
    27 May 2012, 11:49 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    It is a total asylum at this point. All reason has left the room! Funny, I haven't sold any stock, just my mother's who is 93 :>D. Next time I make a buy I wonder if they will report that too?
    28 May 2012, 07:58 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    I found a thread directed at me and you are right. OMY answered his/her own thread starter 4-5 times and was the only person in the thread. :<D
    28 May 2012, 10:04 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    The load profile graphs on Page 7 of the Barbee presentation are almost enough to make me ill. Those are vicious charge-discharge swings and the fact that the PbC is the best of breed when it comes to handling that kind of variability speaks volumes about how it can perform in grid applications.
    27 May 2012, 02:57 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Yep, Like trying to capture lightening in a bottle.

     

    You do have to wonder why the guys on the generation side of the equation (diesel generator, dynamic brake) can't do a little better job taming the peaks a little. It's not like the locomotive needs such quick response times between drive/braking cycles. Or maybe I'm just not looking at the time scale accurately. I sure hope the scale at the bottom is not milliseconds!

     

    BTW, The load profile is probably what they are getting from those research cars in their fleet. I can see the day when the engineer in the locomotive is just there to make sure everything is operating normally with the PLC optimizing the entire trip.

     

    I just saw them announcing driverless trains in Australia for mineral transfer. Of coarse this is over huge areas where there is likely to be close to nothing but track and kangaroos.
    27 May 2012, 08:12 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... There is nothing that keeps trains and airplanes from being operated as completely autonomous now. The only reason that keeps people in the cab are those little things that happen everyday that programmers haven't coded for.

     

    I don't have a good train analogy, but drone aircraft are a fact of life now. Yet would you fly one? I know I'd feel better knowing someone like Chesley Burnett "Sully" Sullenberger III was at the helm when bird & plane met than to rely on a HAL 5000 or a 'gamer' at the joystick in Kansas.
    27 May 2012, 10:44 AM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1551) | Send Message
     
    Glad you feel that way, D ;-)
    28 May 2012, 03:06 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    DRich, Thanks and understood.

     

    Then you have the auto industry where if personal carriers were autonomous, and they also have the technology, we'd be safer on average sans manual override. But where's the fahrvergnügen in that.

     

    And you're right about your Apollo 13 point. It will be a long time before the feds will allow pure autonomy in freight trains due to unusual events or worse terrorism. In fact I'm very surprised we have not had any issue with the latter.

     

    http://bit.ly/KWq8m8
    28 May 2012, 07:36 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4204) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco > "It will be a long time before the feds will allow pure autonomy in freight trains due to unusual events or worse terrorism. In fact I'm very surprised we have not had any issue with the latter."

     

    I'm not so sure we haven't incurred issues with the latter.
    28 May 2012, 06:51 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    D-inv, You're probably right. Just so hard to cover all the possibilities. Unfortunately in a freer society the people that lose more and more of their freedoms as a result of the people looking to make their point via destructive means are the masses that don't.
    28 May 2012, 07:08 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... I'm not one to worry too much about the terror aspect in daily life. It does happen, has happened & will happen again. Just the cost of living with liberty and not worth ceding our rights & power for "safety", but it seems to be a minority view ... people must enjoy being afraid.
    28 May 2012, 10:44 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    I've lived without broadcast TV for 14 years now and have come to view it as the most manipulative thing in the world because it takes distant problems and transports them into your living room. There's undoubtedly some tin-foil hat thinking involved, but I tend to believe that all manner of people manipulate TV content for less than honorable purposes.
    29 May 2012, 01:43 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    DRich: I have never agreed more strongly with anything on SA than what you just posted.

     

    HardToLove
    29 May 2012, 05:48 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    DRich, Couldn't agree more.
    29 May 2012, 09:59 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2428) | Send Message
     
    I have not had a TV for decade, and most heartily agree with you, John.
    29 May 2012, 10:03 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >JP, HTL, iindelco, RK ... thanks .... but it worries me when you guys agree with a Liberal. I may have to rethink this.
    29 May 2012, 10:18 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    I think that with age we get less impressed with labels and more impressed with common sense. You're a pretty sensible guy despite any labels you may choose for yourself.
    29 May 2012, 10:22 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    Yep! I do believe that your definition of "liberal" is out of line with current thinking! More likely along the lines of older definitions, such as I believe I adhere to on social issues.

     

    That older definition, AFAIK, didn't *guarantee* anything or everything to all, other than the freedom to pursue your aspirations.

     

    As it's (apparently) currently used, "liberal" is a long way from that.

     

    Maybe you're closer to TB's and (GASP!) Ron Paul's "libertarian"?

     

    :-))

     

    HardToLove
    29 May 2012, 10:25 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... It is not the label of my choosing (I prefer something else) but it is the most gracious one I'm referred to as on a regular basis. The list is long and mostly not fit for publication.
    29 May 2012, 10:30 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    I always preferred the term anarcho-capitalist.
    29 May 2012, 10:30 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >HTL ... I respect Ron Paul a lot. It doesn't keep me from thinking most of his ideas are completely insane but he is someone that a viable deal could be worked out with. A rare thing to say about anyone in Texas these days.
    29 May 2012, 10:34 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    I kind of like the direction that this comment trail is going. I've moved toward steering away from categorizing the messenger toward qualifying the message. I think it's the groups of people that have self interests that are working hard to try to get us to focus on the messenger.
    29 May 2012, 10:47 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    Since we've been wondering about who's been selling, this latest fails-to-deliver might offer a clue - note a vlume jump in the middle of the list. Could be just a technical glitch causing a delay, but don't want to assume. Also note the prices are price on the day the failure is determined. The price at time of sale was prior. Looking at my VWAP charts and allowing for time of sale as far as two weeks prior, $0.425-$0.455 seems possible.

     

    0416|AXPW|341|0.44
    0423|AXPW|453|0.43
    0426|AXPW|19356|0.43
    0427|AXPW|16681|0.42
    0430|AXPW|53|0.41

     

    HardToLove
    27 May 2012, 11:50 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2214) | Send Message
     
    This is a bit OT, but it goes along with the data center backup power concepts that could include the PowerCube.

     

    The subject is cooling the electronics by directly submerging the PCBs in a mineral oil, which is a dielectric (insulator). Similar concepts were advanced decades ago using one of the expensive, high boiling temperature fluorocarbons (Freons).

     

    http://bit.ly/KTb3kV
    27 May 2012, 01:38 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (739) | Send Message
     
    is that yet another "kettle of fish" that is not yet worth exploring as it would complicate the ongoing program?
    27 May 2012, 03:48 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3450) | Send Message
     
    I've read of computer hobbyists and gamers making their own oil-immersed PC's....they were the first to start with water cooling too IIRC.... it's always amazing how the insatiable fiendish need for speed, thrills, recreation, FPS, top-dog status never ceases to drive that giver of life: competitive innovation ... as for me, my idea is to co-locate server farms with big swimming-pool aquatic centers...just use the servers to heat the pools! Bwaahhaahhaaa!!!
    27 May 2012, 02:29 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    The Power Macintosh G5 I swapped out of several years ago was their first quad-core machine and it was liquid cooled. There was no way I could justify having all that power, but you know how it is with boys and their toys.
    27 May 2012, 02:51 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    "Los Angeles Plans Pilot of Siemens eHighway"

     

    http://bit.ly/Lt3OD7

     

    So does anyone think that the "Left Coast" guys are not watching the NS999 program as intently as the Axionists? Seven million USD a mile before you even tool up the road units (Oh no, They'll come in under forecast!).

     

    Electrified yard locomotives and battery helper slugs seem like a real deal when you start looking at technology like this as a solution to concentrated emissions.
    27 May 2012, 07:26 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    IINDelco,
    Maya has often posted about the rail yards in California and how they need the NS999 to succeed more than NS does, because they are running up against California regulations in the next few years that will be worse than what NS has to deal with.
    28 May 2012, 12:01 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (990) | Send Message
     
    Da ya think somewhat misleading??????

     

    Charging an electric car in Boston can be free, easy

     

    By Scott Kirsner | GLOBE CORRESPONDENT MAY 27, 2012

     

    http://b.globe.com/KUPyRc
    27 May 2012, 09:41 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    Sure it's "free". If free means you find some other company that's willing to pay for charging to try and get people to come to their hotel or business. And once they realize they others are using the service for "free" you can be sure they will put an end to it.
    27 May 2012, 11:59 PM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1551) | Send Message
     
    I was just at Havard Square last week... didn't think to look for charging stations. The place was hoppin' with all the new grads. Never got to roam MIT though... maybe next time. Ironically, Liquid Metal Battery company was only a block and a half from my Hotel, but I didn't have time to check it out.
    28 May 2012, 03:12 AM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    OT (for the most part) JP> Here's a lithium Ion application from your neck of the woods. Pretty interesting. http://cnet.co/LAAlDp

     

    Unmanned it might have intelligence, remote sensing and mapping, weather and military applications.
    27 May 2012, 10:14 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    They keep the Solar Impulse under tight wraps so I've never seen it, but it's based about 15 miles from here.
    27 May 2012, 11:49 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2145) | Send Message
     
    BW,
    Thanks for the link. It has cool factor, but isn't very practical. Light weight with a 200 foot wing span would make it fairly delicate, a glider with an electric motor (like the gossamer penguin circa 1980). http://bit.ly/KP8r5P
    28 May 2012, 12:56 AM Reply Like
  • amishelvis
    , contributor
    Comments (143) | Send Message
     
    How about we cut a truck engine down in size by 20-30% and use pbc to make up the high end differences?
    40 or 50 batteries per truck, and multiply that by a million trucks. Should save some serious fuel, and cut down on pollution to boot.
    28 May 2012, 12:08 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    I know a private company that's working on a solution. They've built two prototypes of a Class 8 tractor with a series diesel-electric hybrid drivetrain that reportedly gets 12 mpg with a 50,000 pound load.

     

    http://bit.ly/MSNg6E

     

    Unfortunately their website provides very little information and until they say something more I can't either.
    28 May 2012, 12:25 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    Isn't Capstone working on a system too?
    28 May 2012, 01:37 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    Labtech: Yes. US 1 is supposedly running a test truck or two, PACAR (KW and Peterbuilt) running some around test tracks, Artisan Systems has one on the road (several articles on the web about it) and Wrightspeed is converting delivery trucks.

     

    Some of those use Parker Hannefin drive components (which also may use some stuff from UQM) and Wrightspeed uses it's own BMS and transmission with UQM motors.

     

    I don't know the details about how much storage they plan, but a micro-turbine is most efficient running full throttle. If they want to avoid frequent spool up and down cycles, ISTM a large battery capacity would be ideal. Since regenerative braking could be a *big* part of truck efficiency, a PbC setup seems a natural for hotel loads as well increased re-gen efficiency.

     

    With efficiency at ~35%-42%, IIRC, we need a way to capture what is now waste heat to really make an impressive (that is unassailable) case where efficiency can get mid-8x% to low.9x% range. The C370, which has a low and high pressure circuit might be the ticket towards that as there should be less wasted energy in the form of heat as the two circuits are employed at appropriate times.

     

    The model also helps overcome high density altitude issues as both circuits become active with the low-pressure side feeding the high-pressure side,

     

    It will also have higher operating temps available (new austinetic materials, better sealing, ...) meaning we have more waste heat that it would be nice to use.

     

    In fixed installations (hotels, swimming pools, various farming applications, ...) it's easy. For mobile apps, I've not figured a good scenario that allows that waste heat to become useful.

     

    So I don't think we'll see the 80%-90% efficiency in mobile applications. An ice age could change that. ;-))

     

    HardToLove
    28 May 2012, 08:24 AM Reply Like
  • BugEYE
    , contributor
    Comments (195) | Send Message
     
    A Nissan GT-R crashed into a BYD e6 taxi at high speed in the southern Chinese city of Shenzhen early on Saturday. The all-electric battery car caught fire and three people were killed, Chinese media reported, citing police.

     

    http://reut.rs/L7kc9R
    28 May 2012, 04:29 AM Reply Like
  • BugEYE
    , contributor
    Comments (195) | Send Message
     
    Hope further investigation could find out what caused the tragedy.
    28 May 2012, 04:32 AM Reply Like
  • BugEYE
    , contributor
    Comments (195) | Send Message
     
    A more detailed report by a Chinese media for those who can read Chinese.

     

    http://bit.ly/KmvSIa
    28 May 2012, 04:37 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    The pictures in the Chinese newspaper are a slide-show.

     

    The first two pictures are normal photos of a couple wrecked cars.

     

    The third and fourth pictures of the BYD taxi while the battery pack is exploding and after the fire are mind boggling.

     

    Every time I start to think about backing off when it comes to EVs things like this happen. When is somebody going to wake up and smell the coffee?
    28 May 2012, 08:32 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    A little more detail, in English.

     

    http://bit.ly/KiLs7Z

     

    This seems the best I found so far. Pics.

     

    http://bit.ly/KiLpJv

     

    HardToLove
    28 May 2012, 08:33 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13542) | Send Message
     
    Inevitable.
    28 May 2012, 08:43 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    Here's an English blog from the region with several pictures.

     

    http://bit.ly/KmVyV9

     

    The important point to remember is that BYD makes LiFePO4 batteries, which are allegedly the safest lithium-ion batteries around.
    28 May 2012, 08:49 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    The insurance industry may be smelling the coffee soon if there are further fires, burnt down garages, etc. Although I can think of more than one case of automobile and garage fires attributable to gasoline powered vehicles, it would seem that battery powered cars are statistically more susceptible. The insurance actuaries are now working overtime as we laze away the long weekend.
    ##
    What is the difference between an extroverted and an introverted actuary?
    The introverted actuary stares at their feet when speaking, the extroverted actuary stares at your feet when speaking.

     

    I dated an actuary once long ago. A very nice and smart lady. Just adding this as a sort of disclaimer.
    28 May 2012, 09:00 AM Reply Like
  • battman
    , contributor
    Comments (373) | Send Message
     
    metro, the problem with the lithium batteries is that they can just catch fire for no reason. Usually batteries or gas needs some kind of instigation to get them going. If I don't mess around with my car, there is basically nothing that will cause my car to go up in flames. You could leave your EV in the garage for a month without touching it, and for no reason your house burns down. Two very different things when it comes to the dangers of it.
    28 May 2012, 12:17 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    battman,
    I understand what you are saying, but at the same time my friend was just driving down the street and her car caught fire and was a total loss. (She didn't have a fire extinguisher and the fire dept was slow to react) I don't recall what the problem was with the car, but she hadn't been messing with it, it was only about two years old, and she kept it maintained at Volkswagen. Knowing her economic situation, I'm guessing she didn't spend a lot of "under the hood" time.

     

    I also recall about 20 years ago when a family was driving in Chicago and their tire kicked up a piece of metal and ruptured the gas tank. I think only one of them survived - it seemed really unlucky and unfortunate. So although unfortunate things happen with gasoline powered vehicles also, again it seems like it is much more statistically likely to happen with an EV.
    28 May 2012, 03:00 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    When they find out how to suppress the growth of "whiskers", a lot of the risk should be removed. Recent investigations such this as the failure mode when internal shorts are created.

     

    BTW, the "whiskers" are a problem for some other chemistries as well, but apparently there's not a thermal run away as a result.

     

    HardToLove
    28 May 2012, 04:01 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Yeah, LiFePo4 is one of the safer chemistries which is why it's being used for larger format batteries. Problem is it's a power battery with reduced energy vs cobalt based designs. Thus more mass/unit energy storage. BYD is using this chemistry. I remember when the CEO was giving a plant tour when Warren Buffet bought his position the CEO took a drink of the electrolyte to prove how environmentally safe their green battery is.

     

    Here's a newer version of the long advertised VLNC puncture test.

     

    http://bit.ly/yncqHj

     

    You can understand pretty quickly how fast a vehicle can go up when the large format batteries lithium content begins to oxidize.
    28 May 2012, 04:13 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    I like that. Especially interesting to me was the repeated flares as successive cells became affected and contributed their bit when they failed.

     

    Sounds like Valence has a good alternative, but they didn't mention the energy density or other characteristics there, so ...

     

    HardToLove
    28 May 2012, 04:31 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Hey HTL, Smiled when I saw this.

     

    http://bit.ly/LysFpd
    28 May 2012, 07:47 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    Yeah, it looks familiar. What stuck in my mind from the first reading was wondering if, using this technique, there was a possibility of bringing $/KwH of Li-based batteries into competitive range with PbC.

     

    I also got a chuckle, recalling everything from JP and others about "Eureka moment to commercialization", from the "about a year" time-frame.

     

    A risk that crossed my mind is "unintended consequences". Do these new "whiskers" from the tin affect the growth of whiskers from the cathode? Does it shorten the time to internal shorting as a whisker from the cathode grows and contacts a tin whisker which may be up to 10 mm closer than the surface of the anode was previously?

     

    OTOH, maybe the tin whiskers reduce or eliminate the growth of undesirable whiskers?

     

    HardToLove
    29 May 2012, 06:03 AM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    Be interesting to see how EV's fare this summer, and dead of winter when summer is over. I drove from Yuma, Arizona to San Diego across the desert once and stopped in Buckeye, AZ for a few minutes.When I got to my hotel the weather channel said the hottest temperature in the nation that day was in Buckeye, AZ 116 degrees. I only knew it was hotter than hell.

     

    Wait a minute! Don't think an EV would go on that trip. One day drive but way over 100 miles and charging stations? Plus who wants to sit around waiting for it to charge in 116 degree heat? Maybe in a Volt.

     

    Maybe I could get Obama or Chu to take my $5 bet that they don't hit 1M EV's by 2015. Maybe JP3 would take it. I'd go $100.
    28 May 2012, 03:02 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Follow up on you're risky bet Bang. :)

     

    http://bit.ly/K5ICo0

     

    It sure would be wonderful if high energy density batteries were plentiful and cheap. Unfortunately they are not.
    28 May 2012, 07:12 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Yeah Bang. Family vacation starting in S.F. Rented car (First time gas hit 4+ USD in Cali and they wanted to upgrade me from a full sized Buick to a full sized SUV. Said no thanks and ended up with a Chrysler L/H full sized car. Yeah I wanted that SUV gas hog.). Anyway after S.F. did the drive to the Grand Canyon and then over the Bolder dam. The route took me through Nevada. Man, Dry heat isn't so bad my behind! It was freakin HOT!

     

    And Bang, quit trying to get people to take bets when it's a sure thing they will have to pay you! ;))
    28 May 2012, 03:36 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Back to JP's lead supply topic.

     

    "DJ China 2012 Battery Demand To Rise 15%, Add 3 Mln Tons Lead Demand"

     

    http://bit.ly/MZjJbJ

     

    The thing I like about the carbon anode is the fact that, as JP points out, it displaces lead which is trending up like most primary metals. The carbon anode, while perhaps expensive, is driven more by process and thus has room for creative solutions to reduce the cost. Perhaps the binder at a few percent is not cheap but the coconut shells which are primarily used for water filtration in many countries is obviously not an expensive raw material. And yes, there are also current collectors and separators as well driving the price but there is still more room for improvement than in traditional VRLA batteries.
    28 May 2012, 04:00 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9574) | Send Message
     
    Next-Gen Car Batteries Research Will Take 10 Years

     

    http://bit.ly/KXFt9B
    28 May 2012, 04:02 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9984) | Send Message
     
    Want to keep using your laptop?

     

    Watch this demostration of a lithium battery (pack) laptop induced to catch fire...and then watch the other battery cells catch fire, each igniting more quickly and violently than the one before:

     

    http://bit.ly/JQCcTY

     

    Loving my docking station and remote keyboard ever more after seeing this demonstration ;-)
    28 May 2012, 05:13 PM Reply Like
  • battman
    , contributor
    Comments (373) | Send Message
     
    My wife told me the other day she wants to get a divorce. I don't know if I'm prepared to go through the litigation and the court battle that would ensue, so after a lengthy discussion I convinced her to stay with me and I promised to buy her a new car. I'm getting her the Fisker Karma ;-)
    Barum ching. Thanks, I'm here all week, tip your wait staff.
    28 May 2012, 08:54 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18048) | Send Message
     
    How insidious of you! ;-))

     

    Even "Monk" couldn't nail you on that one.

     

    HardToLove
    29 May 2012, 06:12 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Moore's law? well ya... it just doesn't apply...

     

    At a recent computer expo Bill Gates, comparing the computer industry with the auto industry, said, "If General Motors had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon."

     

    General Motors issued this response:

     

    "If we had developed technology akin to Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics.

     

    "For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you'd have to buy a new car.

     

    "Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull over to the side of the road, close all the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue. For some reason you would accept this. I would like to add that when it did restart, you would find yourself back where you had been three hours earlier!

     

    "Occasionally, executing a manoeuvre such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.

     

    "Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would only run on 5% of the roads.

     

    "The oil, water temperature and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single 'This Car Has Performed An Illegal Operation' warning light.

     

    "The airbag system would ask 'Are you sure?" before deploying during an accident.

     

    "Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.

     

    "Every time a new car was introduced, car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car. I'd like to add that you would then have to spend hour upon hour reinstalling your old map books, chamois leather, cassette tapes, back support and anything else you had removed from your old car and wanted to continue to use in the new one.

     

    "You'd have to press the Start button to turn the engine off."

     

    Ironically, you do push the start button to turn the engine of in the newer keyless autos. Anyway, thought everyone would get a kick out of this...
    28 May 2012, 08:22 PM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
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    Author’s reply » New Concentrator for the new week this way ------->

     

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