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  • Axion Power Concentrator 109: June 1, 2012: U.S. DOE Awards Grant To Axion Power International For PbC® Batteries In Micro-Hybrid Vehicles 194 comments
    Jun 1, 2012 7:55 PM | about stocks: AXPW

    These instablogs and the people who maintain them have no relationship whatsoever to Axion Power International. To our direct knowledge no person with a current relationship to Axion Power International other than being a shareholder participates in these instablogs.

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    U.S. DOE Awards Grant to Axion Power International to Fund Commercialization Plan for PbC® Batteries In Micro-Hybrid Vehicles

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    Axion Power's Weighted Moving Average Price and Volume:

    (updated through close Friday June 1st)

    (click to enlarge)

    Concentrator Comments: 20,000 comments surpassed on June 1st!

    (updated June 1st)

    (click to enlarge)

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    LINKS to valuable Axion Power Research and websites:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites created by APC commentator Bangwhiz it is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one; including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Axion Power Website, the first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

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    Enjoy!

    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

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Comments (194)
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  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (411) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » IMPORTANT REMINDER: for those not able to read every post.

     

    If you are interested in potentially participating in a buyer's syndicate you should contact JP with your name, email address and level of interest.

     

    What we lack in individual strength we may well have collectively.

     

    MOST FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THE SUBJECT SHOULD BE CONDUCTED THROUGH PM's.
    1 Jun 2012, 08:04 PM Reply Like
  • engindoc
    , contributor
    Comments (19) | Send Message
     
    Uplifting news this week regarding reverse splits in the micro-cap space. For some time now, the overhang of a potential reverse split has kept the price of many micro-caps depressed. I have been a cautious investor in AXPW for fear of what a reverse split might do. Chembio diagnostics (symbol CEMID) , a small medical diagnostics company, began trading Wednesday this week on an 8:1 reverse split basis. It rose over 10 percent on this first trading day. It closed the week up 16%. Particularly remarkable given the shellacking the markets have taken this week. Irrational fear may be finally lifting in the micro-cap space?
    1 Jun 2012, 08:43 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Enginedoc: just be careful as that pop *may* be just due to to possible transition to the NASDAQ.

     

    "Chembio Finalizes Process for NASDAQ Listing"

     

    http://mwne.ws/L7sFI8

     

    Increased volume that could be expected on the NASDAQ might cause some "players" to position themselves to take advantage of a temporary pop as increased liquidity improves price (but only 8M shares out - may not be much liquidity).

     

    And the price, especially if it can make >= $5(?), may make it possible for institutional investors to take stake - there is currently no institutional investment reported.

     

    They can now be more easily targeted by short sellers as well.

     

    On the flip side, this reverse split appears to be in conjunction with a reasonably strong growth profile over the last three years and reverse splits in this scenario are not as frequently disastrous as for a weakening company looking to bolster share price through a reverse split.

     

    All-in-all I wouldn't draw any general conclusions about overall market sentiment regarding reverse splits or the micro-cap space from this.

     

    If their earnings growth profile maintains what it has demonstrated over the last few years, looks like a good investment, regardless.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    2 Jun 2012, 07:58 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Except for the stock price requirements, Axion has met all of the numerical listing standard of the Amex, and for that matter the Nasdaq, since December 2009. The only thing that would have been required to upgrade to a better market would have been a reverse split. In the year end CC Mr. Granville said the question had been discussed at the board level several times. In all cases the discussions did not lead to a proxy statement proposal. The only possible explanation is that the board believes the stock is grossly undervalued and isn't willing to do a quick and easy reverse split to overcome a temporary weakness. I agree with them.

     

    After three opportunities to do a reverse split for a relatively easy reward and three refusals to propose a reverse split to the stockholders, I don't believe the possibility is even worth contemplating.
    2 Jun 2012, 10:37 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    I agree John. With so many potential flowers coming to bloom in a relatively near-term time, why undertake all the expense and aggravation now?

     

    For investing, seeing them graduate purely on the merits, w/o "engineering" a higher stock price would be a real feather in their cap.

     

    HardToLove
    2 Jun 2012, 12:33 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    The only ambition I had for Axion that remains un-met is a national exchange listing. Every member of the board feels the same way. That being said they want to earn it and believe they can earn it, so why suffer the shame of sneaking in through the back door.
    2 Jun 2012, 12:48 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    I agree with the thought process going into this discussion. I have no problem with a company doing a little financial engineering to move the company forward. That being said, without some of the right inputs to support the meaning of the decision it's time and money not well spent. Just draws attention in a way where there might not be enough strengths to support the move was a sound decision based on where the company is in it's launch plan.
    2 Jun 2012, 12:51 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    Amen. "They made money the old-fashioned way. They EARNED it."

     

    Going up? No thanks, we're taking the stairs. Got legs for a reason...
    2 Jun 2012, 01:38 PM Reply Like
  • Johhny rambo
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    iindelco

     

    I do agree with the technical reasons for not engineering a reverse split.
    However, although this may not be a board consideration moving forward from this point, I do wonder if hindsight would have delivered a much different board decision, when they could-perhaps should, have seriously considered this action in '10.

     

    Surely, with a big board listing and a healthy stock price we would not have been caught up in this death spiral of penny stock financing, worried about how long we can keep the lights on for etc.

     

    I know in the mining industry, big investors only come in when a junior gets above $2, at that point they are happy to throw all kinds of $$ at the deal, before that inflection point they have no interest.

     

    I was reading an article on Reuters yesterday that said that "the death of the equity market" was driving retail investors to their caves, and that this market was now a return to a "professional market"

     

    That being said, would suggest to me that in order to attract those who will drive our stock skyward, a reverse split consideration may be worthy of further conversation IMHO.
    2 Jun 2012, 02:54 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    JR, I understand your points and they are valid ones. Certainly different listings and stock price levels afford consideration from a different audience. And as you suggest, the opportunities offered are not only driven by individual asset considerations but also by market timing. There probably have been times when the sector was more highly respected then it is now and when it looked like Axion might have been more timely in it's progress in launching the PBC battery. Another example could have been when the Exide agreement looked like it might bear more fruit.

     

    Variables should weigh on the decision to do reverse/forward splits or change listings as they come about. Right now I don't see them holding the cards required to play the hand. Internal and external conditions can and will change and decisions on how to react to them will have to be made. I trust they have the expertise and access to to better counsel than I in considering which path is best.

     

    This does not mean that they might not have done it differently in the past. The information available has changed.
    2 Jun 2012, 03:48 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3768) | Send Message
     
    A question some here might regard as "dumb."

     

    Axion Power's PbC battery is, as I understand it, an AGM LA with the conventional lead negative electrode replaced by Axion's C composite electrode. How sure can we be that auto OEM's introducing the PbC battery in S/S systems will not call it an AGM battery?
    1 Jun 2012, 10:20 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    The term AGM is an acronym for "absorbed glass mat" the type of electrode separator that's used in "valve regulated lead-acid," or VRLA architecture. The two acronyms are used interchangeably to describe the battery architecture.

     

    The PbC is a lead-carbon electrode couple that uses absorbed glass mat separators and is built in a VRLA architecture.

     

    Axion's hope is that PbC will become a recognized brand that describes the lead (Pb) and carbon (C) electrode couple, the feature that differentiates the PbC from all other AGM/VRLA batteries.

     

    Ultimately they'd like to see something clearly recognizable like "Axion Inside."
    2 Jun 2012, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    Axion Electrodes: The Power Within. ;)
    2 Jun 2012, 01:40 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Or *PbC, the power within*
    2 Jun 2012, 04:51 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >D-inv ... It will be an AGM. I guess it will be up to the battery fabricator how obvious the Axion nameplate will be. Could be marketed as "New & Improved" and not much more.
    1 Jun 2012, 10:38 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    All, I would expect the manufacturer to make the PBC battery very obvious as the owner would need to know that they cannot replace the battery with any other AGM battery. I might even expect them to use a special interface such as PBC only electrical connections, special external feature in the case, a recognition feature as part of the BMS etc to ensure correct replacement.
    1 Jun 2012, 10:56 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3768) | Send Message
     
    Ummm, I've seen a few laptop computers and other devices equipped with Li-ion batteries that cannot be replaced with just any other Li-ion battery and sometimes that lack of substitutability is/was due to use of special interfaces. But, the batteries are still labeled and treated as li-ion.

     

    My question is really prompted by the extensive commentary on APCs about use of NDAs by prospective clients to shield those client's R&D efforts from competitors. On reading that the Summer 2012 forthcoming Ford S/S vehicle will use an AGM battery from JCI, I asked myself just what it meant to be advised the battery would be AGM. Would Ford or JCI be likely to advise their competitors of a new S/S vehicle configuration before actual introduction of the vehicle to market?
    2 Jun 2012, 01:40 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    "Would Ford or JCI be likely to advise their competitors of a new S/S vehicle configuration before actual introduction of the vehicle to market? "

     

    They would announce it when they could no longer keep it a secret or when it was to their advantage to do so. Ford as the OEM gets the final call.
    2 Jun 2012, 02:06 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    As a follow-on to those considerations, there has to be something special done so that in the case of jump-starts, etc., folks don't hook cables to the PbC - I suspect the capacitance could ruin the jumping vehicles electrical system (or battery?) and bring the PbC to a higher state of charge than desired, possibly have a deleterious effect on its lifetime?

     

    So ISTM that some kind of prominent labeling is needed.

     

    HardToLove
    2 Jun 2012, 08:06 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Good point HTL. I would expect that not only would they label well but they would make it very hard to impossible to get the jumper cable into the circuit where the charge could be introduced to the PBC battery. The opposite would be true for getting the cables across the mating starter FLA battery. And the electrical circuit would obviously need to allow for the temporary inclusion of an exterior charge signal.

     

    I remember years ago an issue GM was having with their full frame M-Van (Astro van). They were having a high failure rate on their windshield wiper motors. After much investigation they learned that because the bracket the motors was mounted on was one of the more convenient places to attach the negative (ground) cable for jumping the vehicle that people were using it at a statistically relevant rate. Unfortunately chassis ground is not perfect at every point for such current levels and the introduction of such a high current with it's resistance at the bracket connection point also introduced another current path through the wiper motor. I can't remember if the final solution was a big ole label or if they introduced something in the wiper motor like a diode but anyway a case of unintended consequences. Humans can introduce all kinds of variables and you need to do your darndest to try to protect the humans and the vehicle by attempting to think of them in advance.

     

    I'm sure that, having written software, you are well aware of how creative humans can be and how bullet proof things need to be as a result.
    2 Jun 2012, 09:18 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1823) | Send Message
     
    If the PbC is used in a 2-battery system, as Axion is currently recommending, then it's the other battery that would need to be jumped and would be made accessible.

     

    The PbC might as well be completely hidden.

     

    D
    2 Jun 2012, 09:30 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1887) | Send Message
     
    iindelco LOL you know there will be someone somewhere who we will read about that removed half the vehicle and the engine bloc to find those two metal nubs to hook some jumper cables to.

     

    From the 2016 Boston Herald:
    "I just couldn't figure out why it was so hard to get a jump." Jack Straw claims.
    2 Jun 2012, 09:38 AM Reply Like
  • Ricknplano
    , contributor
    Comments (286) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for that story :) Reminds me of construction. Amazing how creative workers can be. I used to have ulcers. My father told me to change my attitude; to not be upset when things were being done wrong, to instead realize my job was to fix whatever the guys had decided to screw up today... and to realize they will come up with something entirely new tomorrow. That change of attitute really helped. When you think you have seen everything life will teach you how little imagination you have.
    2 Jun 2012, 10:36 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    jakurtz, Now that's funny!

     

    But you know how true it is. Consumer products are so much harder than those intended for a less diverse audience. There's always at least one Jack out there looking for a weakness unintentionally. With the PCB and it's capacitor like characteristics it's the guy with all the insulated covers removed from both terminals and a conductive tool long enough to bridge between them. (You'll note that some LAB suppliers have gone to female connection points with a ridge of plastic built up around them to make it harder to drop a tool across the terminals.)

     

    PS But their nickname isn't Straw, It's more reflective of their creativity.

     

    Hint: It's the last name you would give our Jack based on his antics here. :))
    2 Jun 2012, 10:40 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    Ruin the other cars electrical system? PbC only connections? aren't you guys getting a tad carried away? <smile> I don't know a lot about capacitors but my thinking is they will only absorb the energy/power that is available to them. I also don't see why you couldn't place a PbC in a position that was originally held by an AGM unless the vehicle has a sophisticated BMS or large hotel loads that could cause the voltage to sag. Just saying...
    2 Jun 2012, 10:45 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    DM, Yep they would surely make sure to make it very difficult to get into the circuit.

     

    The one consideration though is that vehicles are very sensitive to space requirements. It is one of the disadvantages of the 2 battery Axion offering because space is a premium. And things need to be positioned based on a hierarchy of needs such as functional position, possible position based on available space, safety, thermal sensitivity etc. With the PBC being an AGM style battery it would like to avoid high temperature and based on it's function it would need to dissipate heat as well. So it would like to be first in the passenger compartment and second in the trunk. So while it needs to be isolated from people it needs air flow.

     

    BTW as a side note, I'm pretty sure that Kirk indicated that the PBC was less sensitive to thermal extremes that standard AGM.
    2 Jun 2012, 10:54 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Rick, Our background is very similar in regard to your time spent repairing things on a construction site. I was much better at designing special production and test equipment after I saw how much creativity can be had in sites where they have 3500 people with anything from no formal education to Doctorate degrees running things with some level of training to none. Yes there were uber educated people doing simple production jobs at GM because the money was good and while they loved understanding things they didn't want the hassle of interfacing at a level of society where they might apply what they learned.

     

    As for your fathers input. You know he's right now because if you didn't adjust you would have gone insane or worse.

     

    We could share stories all day and enjoy the heck out of it.
    2 Jun 2012, 11:35 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    This is a good video to to get your thoughts going on the difference between the battery and the hybrid PBC and it's capacitive nature.

     

    http://bit.ly/L8ONWL

     

    And then moving it up to a higher voltage just for fun. The creative people! (Where you spent time vs home electrical circuits!)

     

    http://bit.ly/K56q5W
    2 Jun 2012, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Tim,

     

    Considering the possibility of higher PbC voltage (especially if we start looking at 48 volts) and amperage draw the PbC is capable of? The jumping car wasn't designed for these parameters and I was considering that there might be a risk, although I don't know.

     

    HardToLove
    2 Jun 2012, 12:44 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    iindelco, I can definitely see the hazards in the discharge side of things especially if things get hooked up incorrectly. We are on the same page here.

     

    Your second video shows a rack of pole mounted AC capacitors. We handled those with special care and packaging when we removed them from service (I wonder if dad knows the kids borrowed them for their backyard entertainment).

     

    On the lighter side, I noticed the guy in your first video switched to rubber gloves for his second demonstration. Smart move and it's amazing what protection can be found in a good pair of dishwashing gloves...
    2 Jun 2012, 12:49 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Tim,

     

    Noting the low internal resistance in the first video Iindelco linked, I believe that is where the risk lays. At 80% SOC on the PbC I suspect a *very* large amperage draw is possible.

     

    However, if we had a 48V PbC, the current would flow the other way - seems that might be a risky situation.

     

    Oh well, fun with imaginary scenarios!

     

    HardToLove
    2 Jun 2012, 12:59 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2083) | Send Message
     
    >HTL, others: There is some electrical code safety rule somewhere that basically says you can treat any voltage under X volts as "not dangerous" from an electrical shock standpoint. That allows you to use cheap, un-armored wiring to control industrial systems. I recall that voltage is around 45V.

     

    That is one of the reasons that much industrial control work is done with 24VAC. Allowing for high line (wall plug) voltage and cheap, higher resistance transformers, that is equal to about 42 Vpk AC. That is, the peak sine wave voltage at 60Hz line frequency out of the "24V" transformer.

     

    Someone with the appropriate reference can check the actual voltage. My memory of details is not good.
    2 Jun 2012, 01:08 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    HTL, I suspect you are very much correct and would hate to see the results of such an attempt. My apologies...
    2 Jun 2012, 01:09 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Also remember that we don't know what voltage the jumping car is at vs the vehicle to be charged. Some have indicated that we might be looking at a 16V PBC for the SS application running in a range of ?-? volts. Which way is the current going to go and the cap portion of the PBC will dump quickly if allowed through a maybe 8 or 6 AWG equivalent jumper cable.

     

    I think everything would be OK if the person doing the work hooks everything up OK due to internal resistance on the LAB . But how many here have not heard about the person letting the wrong jumper touch chassis ground. And worse yet the person that reverses polarity. I know I've heard of both.

     

    They are going to make it very difficult to get into the PBC circuit. We could get a better feel by seeing how Peugeot installed the Maxwell supercaps.
    2 Jun 2012, 01:12 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Tim,

     

    Yeah, I figured you'd worked with the caps in the second video. Mostly for intermittent transients? Or power factor correction? Or both?

     

    Re: gloves. Yeah, If I'm changing one or two household 120 V do them live and throw on a pair of cotton gloves if they are nearby. Prior owner didn't label the circuit breaker box . Have a few EDM marks on the cutters to prove it!

     

    BTW, I changed all the outlets in my house as I remodeled rooms. Prior owners where slobs with paint and the outlets are cheap. My point was, and the primary reason I rewired, Who the heck ever allowed those push connect points on the back of the outlets. Complete crap. had a couple, before I changed them out, develop poor connection due to perhaps oxidization or heat treating the spring loaded interface. Save a couple bucks during the up front installation and pay and electrician 200 USD again and again to change them over the life of the house.
    2 Jun 2012, 01:26 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    iindelco, indeed both. You will find them in the heavy industrial areas as well as a long rural tap line with a varying load. I don't have any EDM marks on my Kliens (because I throw them out before anyone see's them <smile>). Really! how hard is it to make a note at the panel. I remember the first time I saw a push connection. I was trying to remove it - wtf? was my first thought <grin>...
    2 Jun 2012, 03:17 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Tim: "Apologies"? Shoot, we can't all be spot on every time and *I* didn't know for sure either - just musing about the possibilities.

     

    I don't see any apologies needed for this sort of discussion at all.

     

    'Course, that probably just proves you more of a gentleman than I! :-))

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    2 Jun 2012, 04:06 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    HTL, Ahhh but they are not imaginary.

     

    They are real considerations that lots of grey haired and other very talented people have to beat to death with various tools to do their utmost to prevent. All this would have happened within the professional and individual organizations long before this technology (capacitor/cap-battery hybrids) ever made it into a mass market vehicle.That's why they have and companies support organizations like SAE and many others to come up with standards. All in an effort to reduce the oops that will still happen but are far less then in the past.
    2 Jun 2012, 04:11 PM Reply Like
  • CO3
    , contributor
    Comments (244) | Send Message
     
    Not sure about the rest of the world, but they are no longer legal in Vt.
    Gotta use screw connections on all new installations & repairs.
    2 Jun 2012, 04:20 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Thanks CO3, I know many of us understand why. I'm just amazed they ever even considered it an acceptable practice.
    2 Jun 2012, 05:06 PM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1823) | Send Message
     
    Here's a thought: in the 2-battery configuration, is there a realistic scenario where the starter battery would be too dead to start the car but the PbC would continue to have a relatively full charge?

     

    Would that frequently be the case?

     

    If so, could you use the PbC to start the car instead of having to rely on the kindness of strangers?

     

    D
    2 Jun 2012, 05:27 PM Reply Like
  • CO3
    , contributor
    Comments (244) | Send Message
     
    Pressure from the electricians I suspect ...
    Incredible profit boost when you're bidding by the job.

     

    The master I worked for refused to allow us to wire that way,
    so I was trained early.
    (It was only allowed on residential anyway & we did more commercial)
    Nowadays I hire it out and word is most of the service calls are related to push-in connections. Preaching to the choir I know, but when I buy an older building the first thing I do is check/replace all the receptacles. Have found dozens overheated from poor connections.
    2 Jun 2012, 05:58 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    It's highly unlikely. The starter load is only 300-amp seconds for a restart and perhaps 600-amp seconds for a cold start. Even badly sulfated batteries can handle charge rates in the 5 amp range. If your battery recovery cycle is putting 100 amps into the PbC and 5 or 10 amps into the starter battery, the starter battery will always be fully charged.
    2 Jun 2012, 06:10 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    CO3, Agreed across the board.
    2 Jun 2012, 06:33 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Also there is no reason why the circuit could not be designed to have the circuit in the vehicle designed to allow the PBC battery to start the car in an emergency first start. Remember that the first start is off road and the other systems could be left on delayed start up until the vehicle starts. What would it cost and would they do it based on the cost? Don't know. Probably not based on what John has already relayed.
    2 Jun 2012, 06:53 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3768) | Send Message
     
    "... there is no reason why the circuit could not be designed to have the circuit in the vehicle designed to allow the PBC battery to start the car in an emergency first start."

     

    Seems to me that auto OEMs could find that useful/marketable in cold climates at temperatures where the PbC works and AGM-VRLA or FLABs do not.
    2 Jun 2012, 10:15 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    "BTW as a side note, I'm pretty sure that Kirk indicated that the PBC was less sensitive to thermal extremes that standard AGM"

     

    IINDelco,
    Yes, he did on several occasions.
    3 Jun 2012, 12:41 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2046) | Send Message
     
    Interesting documentary on Netflix about wind turbines and wind power called "Windfall". Brings up some things that I hadn't thought about.
    2 Jun 2012, 05:43 AM Reply Like
  • Ricknplano
    , contributor
    Comments (286) | Send Message
     
    When I read stories like this they always reference lithium. Can improvements in electrolyte tech apply equally to improving performance of LAB and in particular, PbC?

     

    http://bit.ly/LVybyg
    2 Jun 2012, 10:49 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Electrolytes in lithium-ion batteries are extremely complex as are the chemical reactions on the anodes and cathodes. Lead-acid chemistry is all based on the chemical interactions between lead-dioxide, sponge lead and sulfuric acid. Change the electrolyte and you change the battery chemistry to something that won't work as well.
    2 Jun 2012, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • Ricknplano
    , contributor
    Comments (286) | Send Message
     
    Thanks
    2 Jun 2012, 03:54 PM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (213) | Send Message
     
    I have been told (in specific reference to the same tech mentioned in this article) that ionic fluids are extremely expensive (like $1000+ per quart). That being said, I never cared enough to research this, but the person who told me this tends to be well read in the subject.
    2 Jun 2012, 08:08 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    OT: I see lots of crazy driving on the road; tailgating and passing wildly on the right, cutting and weaving through traffic, cutting across 4 lanes of traffic to make an exit – you get the idea. What I find curious about this is that there is a single make of car that represents 90% (or higher) of these high risk maneuvers. Seriously, if there is erratic movement in the traffic pattern, this make of car will be the cause. Anyone have a guess?
    2 Jun 2012, 10:53 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I can't wait to see the answer to this one.
    2 Jun 2012, 10:59 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    Hint: the peopLe who drive these cars appear very impatient and seem in a hurry to get where they are going...
    2 Jun 2012, 11:17 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Until you gave the final clue I was going to guess Prius. My thoughts were that they might be doing maneuvers that they thought were saving gas but disregarding safety. I'll stick with Prius but I have less of a confidence level.
    2 Jun 2012, 11:21 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    The Prius does stand out but typically on the other end of the spectrum. Rarely in the passing lane or exceeding the speed limit. They are on the upper edge of the "slow poke" category...

     

    The car that owns the high risk maneuver category has a big L on the trunk. Now before I get in trouble with the Lexus owners, I am not saying all Lexus owners are high risk drivers. Rather, it appears the risk takers like to drive the Lexus...
    2 Jun 2012, 11:37 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >Tim Enright ... I'm thinking the answer depends on where you live. I do the Rush-Hour tango in Dallas and my observation leads me to believe the answer here would be large SUV's (Escalades,Yukons etc.) and Crown Victoria's bought at the city auctions. This by no means is an inclusive list ... it is Dallas and I travel at all the deliberate speed & acceleration that 72 h.p. permits.
    2 Jun 2012, 12:02 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    >DRich ... the large SUV's are definitely in the group and the region does play a big part for sure as does the Rush Hour tango. The Rush Hour tango is a funny sight to see as people jockey for position in a fruitless effort to get there sooner. Most want to get to the fast lane when the right two lanes yield a better pace. I excluded the Rush Hour tango from my sampling because well its just crazy and anything goes.

     

    I cover a lot of ground every year all across the lower 48 and while everyone else is driving at a normal pace, the L's seem to always want to get there sooner and at some risk to themselves and others. Just my experience, yours may vary...
    2 Jun 2012, 12:35 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Tim, That makes sense to me. Although I am also blinded a little by my limited travels spending most of my time a little further out on the bad side of the tracks so less Lexus's. Thus DRich's point. Your travels give you a different perspective then our more limited stomping ground.

     

    Anyway, I disregarded cars that average young people drive because they are distributed all over the place on vehicle make. No concentration in the muscle cars due to insurance costs so if new they drive things like Civics and sup em up. Went for higher volume platforms. Thought yuppie due to self importance and time constraints. Certainly not all Prius owners or Lexus for that matter.

     

    Anyway, I have one Lexus owner as a brother in law and your comments make sense with regard to his driving. Offensive driver for sure.
    2 Jun 2012, 12:38 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >Tim Enright ... One of the ways I entertain myself while driving is counting the number of times I pass those same drivers that bobbed, weaved and sped past me.
    2 Jun 2012, 01:06 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    >DRich ... very entertaining indeed. I often wonder how much the weaving and bobbing is responsible for the slowdown in the first place...
    2 Jun 2012, 01:36 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    inndelco, you know what, I don't see many young people on the open road except summer time. Adds to the thought that what you guys might see locally differs from what we see regionally or nationally...
    2 Jun 2012, 01:43 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >Tim Enright ... Completely unscientific, but years of observation from the seat of the most underpowered car on the road leads me to believe the highly impatient are a huge reason for gridlock. Both by stalling a column of traffic because 20 feet of road opened and they want it or not knowing the dimensions of what they drive and banging into someone/something.

     

    A couple closely held beliefs of mine are that the biggest cause for rude driving is the automatic transmission and the increase in LaMans driving in heavy traffic is the passion for horsepower. Used to be if I wanted 250-500 h.p. I'd have to build it myself.
    2 Jun 2012, 01:47 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    >DRich ... I am well aware of that 20 feet of road as it is always in front of me <smile> (stopping distant requirements). Curious how they get less interested in this space as we move to the right hand lanes. And I remember the muscle car days when you could build your own...
    2 Jun 2012, 02:21 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    When I used to have a 47 mile commute, I got my chuckles when someone bobbed and weaved for 10 miles or so and I saw them hit the exit ramp with a total of maybe 30 seconds saved, based on when I passed it.

     

    Then there were the ones that moved to the left lane from behind me somewhere, passed in a great hurry, hit the exit ramp, all within a half(?) mile or so, and saved 2-3 seconds.

     

    HardToLove
    2 Jun 2012, 04:11 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Tim

     

    Good point.

     

    As a sports official i have seen the numbers of hopefully legal drivers taking up a ton more parking spaces. Including the ones supposedly saved for us umpires. However on the highway i haven't noticed a ton of kids passing me by this year,

     

    Very interesting. But i betcha that changes when the price of gas continues to drop...imo

     

    I might add in years past the cars were always upscale cars, no more!!

     

    map
    3 Jun 2012, 05:29 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2057) | Send Message
     
    Adding to the less driving by the young... my two daughters (early 20s) basically do not drive, nor does her boy friend. Nor do my two nephews and niece (all in 20s). None have cars or expressed any interest in owning.

     

    Totally different from when I was their age.
    3 Jun 2012, 09:43 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (956) | Send Message
     
    i have never purchased a car, and only own one 'cause i got married.
    3 Jun 2012, 09:54 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2423) | Send Message
     
    Fisker expands recall

     

    http://nyti.ms/JIqakJ
    2 Jun 2012, 02:15 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Interesting that the NYT put the Fisker recall under "Politics".

     

    I doubt they would have done the same if Ford was recalling 200,000 pickups for a hose clamp problem.

     

    Sometimes the most revealing exposure is inadvertent.
    2 Jun 2012, 02:29 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Stefan.

     

    Not huge but Ugh, another headline. Not what the industry, Fisker and especially A123 need right now.
    2 Jun 2012, 02:43 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    The Fisker recall was baked in the cake as soon as A123 announced a $50 million program to recall and replace all of its battery packs from Livonia.

     

    It's a secondary ripple from the stone we already know about.
    2 Jun 2012, 05:01 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    John, This recall is an expansion of the plumbing problem recall. Looks like their quality system missed an additional group. Not a surprise.

     

    I've witnessed a number of recalls and watched as they tried to identify the boundaries around suspect part groups. Sometimes games were even played to reduce costs. Like letting the tails of the bell shaped curve of the population slide which would keep them off the government recall radar and save them money. Pick em up in customer satisfaction campaigns. Also watched them delay whole portions of the population if it occurred over time and delay the recall by some time if it was a aging failure mode. Then they could hold on to the money for a period of time and thus reduce the cost. All depending on the failure mode of coarse.
    2 Jun 2012, 05:34 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I read it too quickly. Don't worry though, a 100% recall is coming.
    2 Jun 2012, 06:11 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >Hey Axionistas ... This is a little Off-Topic but does make a market argument for PowerCubes reaching the realm of "Affordable" soon.

     

    Here in Texas last week we were treated to breathless reports of hard to believe electric rate increases. These came from the regional forward capacity market auctions in the Northeast & MidStates. Naturally, here in Texas it was just another piece of Obama's War on Coal ... Bless Their Hearts, but 1June2012 we were treated to a forward peek of the benefits scrapping our state/industry planning structures for deregulation & private management. The prospect of tripling of our already high residential rates

     

    (ref. pp 7 of report, pp 8 of pdf)
    http://bit.ly/K3hGS2

     

    I found this interesting

     

    [quote; Fort Worth Star-Telegram]
    PUC Chairwoman Donna Nelson said it "confirms that we are moving in the right direction."

     

    The PUC has already prepared to raise the state's wholesale power price cap Aug. 1 to $4,500 per megawatt-hour, up 50 percent from the current ceiling of $3,000.

     

    In comparison, wholesale peak power prices in ERCOT's north zone, which includes Dallas-Fort Worth, averaged $61.55 per megawatt-hour last year, according to the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. A megawatt-hour can power about 200 Texas homes during a blazing August heat wave.

     

    The PUC has also discussed raising the price cap as high as $9,000 per megawatt-hour, a measure the Brattle report endorsed even as it said that such a move alone would likely not be enough.
    [quote]

     

    http://bit.ly/Mkl93T

     

    And a little verifying from the Houston Chronicle, with the fine idea of locking in consumers to electric contracts but not prices.

     

    http://bit.ly/K3hJgG

     

    An interesting thing for us, the Axionistas, is this point made by the Texas Tribune

     

    "A fruitful area for Texas officials to develop is the concept of "demand response," the report found. This involves paying electricity customers a modest amount to cut their usage at peak hours — ..."

     

    http://bit.ly/Mkl7Jc

     

    PowerCubes ... anybody? Where's Rosewater when we need them? Just kidding, but, seriously, their idea is about 3 years behind the curve judged by the need.

     

    Here is the report for those interested in Texas

     

    http://bit.ly/K3hH8s

     

    And for those in the rest of the country wondering how expensive your summer and future will be, here is a national report

     

    http://bit.ly/Mkl7Je

     

    Ah, the joys of getting government out of our lives and turning life over to the private sector just keep getting better. Next up here in Texas is the idea of municipal water & sewers can't be owned by cities any more. It looks like we've already lost our roads, but that will be up to the next legislature. Good stuff.
    2 Jun 2012, 03:25 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    DRich: From page 5 of the CAPP report, I think this phrase sums up what I've always felt.

     

    "But competition does not simply develop once regulation is abandoned".

     

    Anytime there is a transition, it should be a managed one to ensure that the benefits envisioned accrue.

     

    Too many folks that make these decisions get convinced by the lobbyists that all they have to do is throw the doors wide open and all will proceed apace to benefit everyone.

     

    They forget that the only difference between government and private sector greed results is only force.

     

    Business, left unfettered by already *existing* competition, will take advantage.

     

    Then add in the incompetence apparently demonstrated by 900% cost overrun by the likes of ERCOT ...

     

    Regardless of product, the "right amount" of regulation (difficult to ascertain) is *always* needed IMO. *Totally* free markets should only exist in storybooks IMO. *Some* amount of government regulation (even if it's only regulating "fair" behavior) should always be at hand for the societal benefits that it can bring.

     

    Too little is likely just as bad (or even worse?) than too much.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    2 Jun 2012, 04:37 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    There is a widespread misconception that a free market requires the absense of regulation. The truth is that just as for individuals, freedom for markets flows from the rule of law.

     

    Experience has revealed another truth, that there is a goldilocks zone (just the right amount) for regulation just as there is for virtually everything.

     

    In a republic based upon the rule of law, but dependent upon the active participation of its citizenry for ultimate guidance, elections have consequences. In the case of multiple elections and the passage of time, those consequences can form a cumulative problem... Whether from a crushing mass of oppressive law, or the absence thereof.

     

    Whether or not the current and proximate issue (whatever it may be) will respond to a change in the law should be the basis for much discussion prior to an election - and the results of those reviews by the citizens, including discovery of the positions put forth by the various candidates, should guide the nation in the selection process of both the candidates and the anticipated solutions expected from them.

     

    Until these conditions are met, chaos is the most likely outcome.
    2 Jun 2012, 05:01 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    In the mid-90s the barn I called home in North Houston cost $1,200 a month to cool through the summer. I can only imagine what the number looks like now.
    2 Jun 2012, 05:04 PM Reply Like
  • JohnM121
    , contributor
    Comments (341) | Send Message
     
    Now match this with the earlier report that at least 1 large environmental group is preparing to oppose all natural gas plants. TX is one of areas with an oversupply of gas. 5 years or so, TXU said that 5 coal plants need to be built. That proposal was laughed at. Whatever the fuel, something needed to be started then come online now.

     

    If the max peak price goes to $9000/MWH, we may see more people going off the grid and getting a residential gas generator. Peak power, such as when the A/C motors start, can come from the grid or some PBCs. "The Grid" doesn't really care if the power comes from batteries of methane. Batteries can give a quick response until the methane generator gets fired up.

     

    http://bit.ly/La6pgP
    2 Jun 2012, 10:35 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    "If the max peak price goes to $9000/MWH, we may see more people going off the grid and getting a residential gas generator."

     

    Well there's a great solution. Replacing large scale generation for home units at half the efficiency or less. CO2 anyone?

     

    "Hello Houston....."

     

    But you can use co-generation in the cooler months and pipe heat around the neighborhood for free. In the summer, well?

     

    When are the peak seasons for electric consumption in TX? Oh.

     

    "Hello Houston..."

     

    When a Public/Private monopoly with all their resources leaves people running around looking for individual solutions because they can't do a better job a light should come on to remind you how bad you're getting screwed (Deepest apologies for the language.).
    3 Jun 2012, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    At that kind of eye-popping number it would sure *seem* like payback for residential solar would become attractive---here's Lennox selling integrated PVsolar/HVAC systems for residential:

     

    http://bit.ly/KtVNPN

     

    Add in our Axion residential mini powercube and the system is even more robust... ;)
    3 Jun 2012, 03:37 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    86, Okay now that REALLY makes good sense to me. A great correlation and when you add the PbC for a 4 hour time shift into the evening it just gets better. A good example of the proper use of a green electron <smile>...
    3 Jun 2012, 08:21 PM Reply Like
  • Ricknplano
    , contributor
    Comments (286) | Send Message
     
    Exceptionally well stated. Thank you
    4 Jun 2012, 09:20 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    "Ah, the joys of getting government out of our lives and turning life over to the private sector just keep getting better."

     

    DRich, You're getting a little ahead of yourself. At the same time they are allowing the private sector to change rate structure they control the band and call out the dances. That the private sector is willing to play along where it benefits them should be of no surprise.

     

    Anyway, Good links. The game is being changed, good or bad. It looks like storage will become more and more necessary regardless of the balance.
    2 Jun 2012, 04:55 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I'd like to go back and revisit the smart guys discussion of capacitance because I've never understood the significance of a point that leaped out at me in the unsuccessful Axion-GM grant application.

     

    Page 6 of the application starts with the following paragraph.

     

    The PbC battery system is particularly unique as it has been designed to work much like a VRLA battery but with high charge acceptance. The large capacitance of the PbC battery (13,000F) means that it can support typical vehicle loads for up to 600s above 12V without the need for recharging. It does not require cell balancing because of inherent overcharge protection through the recombination of hydrogen and oxygen on the negative electrode. It is also likely to withstand heat of the engine compartment without loss of electrolyte or grid corrosion. For these reasons, the PbC battery offers a dramatic cost reduction (>50%) over current li-ion solutions, which is the reduction target for this funding opportunity.

     

    I've always been fascinated by the 13,000F reference but have never been able to wrap my little mind around what it means. If any of you geniuses can help me understand better I'd love to learn.

     

    I've stuck a copy of the application in my public dropbox and you can download the document here – http://bit.ly/M8SRXf
    2 Jun 2012, 05:16 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    I'll take a quick simplistic stab: 0.5 x 13,000 Coulomb/volt x (12 volts) ^2 = 936K Coulomb-Volts. And as 1 Volt = 1 Joule / Coulomb then the above = 936 KiloJoules or 936,000 Watt-Seconds, which is a fair amount of energy...

     

    And for the hotel loads say 50 Amps (C/sec) x 12 V (j/C) x 600 seconds = 360,000 Watt-Seconds (joules) ... which shows that the PbC can comfortably power 50 amps of hotel loads for 10 minutes (!) and still have a lot to spare...
    2 Jun 2012, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I knew there was a lot of energy stored in capacitive or pseudo-capacitive form, but I've never fully understood the impact. Hopefully others will expand further.
    2 Jun 2012, 06:14 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    I second that call. Obviously, my quick & dirty calc used a very fudgy 12V constant output voltage, which we know is not the case, but I still think it gives a decent ballpark idea. We also don't know the internal resistance. But bottom line, it's an utterly amazing device. And the world is going to figure out how to use it. A lot.
    2 Jun 2012, 06:23 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >481086 ... The question remains ... when? At the moment I know of only 4 organizations (there are probably 2 or 3 times this) that are looking at the PbC. The need for a user base is a, if not the, problem.
    2 Jun 2012, 06:52 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2083) | Send Message
     
    Not far off, 481. Assuming a discharge from 15V to 10V, I get 8.1E5 Joules from capacitive energy only. That's 225 Wh.

     

    That would power my hypothetical 20kW electric supercharger for 40 seconds without using ANY of the chemical energy in the PbC. As I understand the kinetics of the battery, that is not possible :-)
    Series impedance, like the poor, will always be with us.
    2 Jun 2012, 07:03 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    DR, I know, so very true... and maddening, but it is what it is, and we always have to remind ourselves that the applications that we're best for: automotive, railroads, utilities, DOD.. are among the slowest of movers. So still we wait. But for other applications, (marine, residential, material handling etc) I think once the world starts seeing them installed somewhere, doing real work, making real money... that will be when some real traction starts..
    2 Jun 2012, 07:07 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    What we also don't understand is what voltage range they want to run the PBC over based on the vehicle integration. Also remember that you are talking about a hybrid. So while 48's quick calculations might show the total energy stored in the PBC via electrostatic charge it might be limited based on the range of use and the interactions of the two storage mechanisms (electrostatic and electrochemical).

     

    We see this discussed in the following paper where they review different storage technology. In section 6.x they cover the PBC and the ultrabattery. They also talk about one of the problems with the mixed lead and carbon ultrabattery anode design that John talked about and elude to the work that was done to reduce the problem.

     

    http://bit.ly/rT4uFO

     

    PS Bang, If you see this I'm not sure this was included on your info site under battery tech. Could you add it if you get a chance. It's a good read for Axionists.
    2 Jun 2012, 07:27 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2224) | Send Message
     
    It was already on the site under "Grid".
    2 Jun 2012, 10:12 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3768) | Send Message
     
    "I knew there was a lot of energy stored in capacitive or pseudo-capacitive form, but I've never fully understood the impact. Hopefully others will expand further."

     

    One might say I am "at sea" on the energy storage capacity of the PbC after reading the exchanges here. Previously, the PbC has been referred to as a "power battery" (as opposed to an "energy battery") with less energy storage capacity than conventional AGM-VRLAs because the PbC contains less lead. Now discussion of the energy storage issue is distinguishing between electrostatic and clectrochemical energy storage.

     

    Clearly, the PbC accepts and released energy at a faster rate than AGM, but is it clear the energy storage capacity of the PbC is less than that of a conventional AGM-VRLA battery?
    2 Jun 2012, 10:47 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    The energy storage capacity of a given volume of PbC batteries will always be less than the same volume of AGM batteries because it contains half as much lead, which is where the electrochemical energy is stored. The energy stored in capacitive form brings it back to a degree, but you'll never get as many electrons in a cubic inch of carbon as you can get in a cubic inch of lead.

     

    The real key is that most lead-acid batteries don't use their entire energy storage capacity because deep discharge shreds them in short order. If you have a 100 Ah lead-acid battery (1,200 wh) that you can only discharge to a 50% state of charge, you can get the same amount of work out of a 100 Ah PbC battery that can handle a deeper discharge without problems.
    3 Jun 2012, 01:43 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Bang.
    3 Jun 2012, 10:11 AM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (956) | Send Message
     
    if it helps, think: PbC durability eats into Lead Acid storage capacity. PbC is a convienent product because it can handle deep discharge. a big reason i favor the tech with investment money. everyone is lazy and easy products are an easy sell. the hold up is the strange configuration when you open the battery up (the carbon).

     

    in my limited exp. engineers favor familiar tech even if it promises and delivers less. it is the accountant that gets the efficient product through the door. the bridge between 'em is explaining to the engineer he can afford to make mistakes because his new toys are so cheap.
    5 Jun 2012, 12:32 AM Reply Like
  • alpha5one
    , contributor
    Comments (125) | Send Message
     
    New Small Solid Oxide Fuel Cell Reaches Record Efficiency

     

    ScienceDaily (May 31, 2012) — Individual homes and entire neighborhoods could be powered with a new, small-scale solid oxide fuel cell system that achieves up to 57 percent efficiency, significantly higher than the 30 to 50 percent efficiencies previously reported for other solid oxide fuel cell systems of its size, according to a study published in this month's issue of Journal of Power Sources.

     

    http://bit.ly/KrkFrs
    2 Jun 2012, 09:42 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Too bad the article contained nothing about the cost of the unit (or the energy produced) except to state:

     

    "There still are significant efforts required to reduce the overall cost to a point where it is economical for distributed generation applications," Sprenkle explained.

     

    They also did not give any indication whether the 57% efficient unit was likely to cost less to operate than the competing 50% unit.

     

    Since it runs on a fossil fuel (methane, extracted from NG) and lists CO2 as its primary waste gas, it might also have been enlightening to see a chart detailing its carbon footprint compared to other power sources.
    2 Jun 2012, 10:33 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (1986) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/Lc8rTk

     

    In this 2010 article the Bloom Energy commercial SOFC unit generating 100 kW cost $800,000.

     

    I don't anticipate getting one for my backyard.
    2 Jun 2012, 11:22 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1317) | Send Message
     
    This will provide some information on fuel cell costs and efficiencies; up to 90% efficient.

     

    BTW, FCEL is up from .99 to 1.29 while the market has been crashing, with a projected price of about $2.50 in 12 mos.

     

    FCEL has the grid niche. Bloom has the high tech niche and PLUG has the small power equipment niche.

     

    FCEL and POSCO have been developing a single house unit. S Korea imports all fuel and the government has decreed that Fuel Cells will be a major power source with stated goals.

     

    FCEL has also signed a series of contracts with major German market players for Germany and Europe, and another for South America.

     

    FCEL is profitable at 80MW per year production and has a back log of over 180MW in addition to this years production. They just sold 20MM shares of stock to POSCO for 1.50 per share in order to have the money to ramp production.

     

    I believe fuel cells will compete with fossil fuel generators and batteries and with green tech with its ups and downs and batteries.

     

    I may be wrong, but I follow fuel cells closely and the issue of needing batteries has never come up.
    2 Jun 2012, 11:41 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3768) | Send Message
     
    thotdoc > "I believe fuel cells will compete with fossil fuel generators and batteries and with green tech with its ups and downs and batteries."

     

    Thanks for the background info on FCEL, Bloom, PLUG, etc. which has stimulated real interest The comment I quoted above has prompted several thoughts. By all means, correct me if I am mistaken here.

     

    First, I have the impression fuel cells, like turbine engines, operate most efficiently when run in a "steady state". If so, and demand for the power output varies by time of day, it appears likely that with power storage capability one could maximize efficiency by running the fuel cell at optimum rates and storing surplus power when demand is low. This might enable, say, a homeowner or business to size a fuel cell to meet their own peak demands but to also sell surplus power into the grid at "peak load" prices. Or, opt for a combination fuel cell/power storage system that fully supported just their own electric power demand.

     

    Second, reading FCEL product descriptions I came away thinking one needed a natural gas supply to feed FCEL fuel cells. If true, for those of us who are not on a natural gas distribution network, use of a FCEL product would require either the expense of running gas lines to one's property OR finding a CNG distributor and installing CNG tank(s). The difference here between a FCEL fuel cell power generator and a small, conventional NG fueled ICE driven generator is how the NG is used to produce electricity.
    3 Jun 2012, 12:47 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1317) | Send Message
     
    Re Q 1: That may be true, but in all my readings I've never run across the idea of needing a steady state for efficiency. I will try to find something on that. I believe you just feed the cell less gas if you need less energy. Of course it is possible to sell back, if that is the set-up

     

    Re Q 2: This is where the fun begins and my mind boggles. Fuel cells run on very well on off gasses, such as the off gasses from onion processing and beer making.(http://bit.ly/JM50lN) and water treatment plants (http://bit.ly/KW4Hmd). I believe Ford is creating electricity and heat (90% efficiency at their car painting plants. See http://bit.ly/JM4YdE for the list of materials fuel cells use to make electricity and heat and discuss their similarity to batteries (which this group should love).

     

    Not enough?: Fuel cells co-produce hydrogen, capture carbon while producing electricity from flue gas at coal fired power plants, and (from memory) a subsidiary company of FCEL is working on a grant that uses the fuel cell to split water into its component chemicals.

     

    Finally, for now, FCEL has a government grant to provide fuel cells that provide energy to surface warships from high sulfur distillate fuels. And interested in electricity for one house from a fuel cell. see http://bit.ly/KW4Hmg
    3 Jun 2012, 04:08 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    It’s becoming increasingly clear why I get so much vitriol from the EVangelicals. It seems that the number of Internet links on my articles is vastly larger than the number of page views reported by Seeking Alpha. This morning I did Google searches on my recent titles and came up with the following tallies since early-April:

     

    Energy Storage: Q1 2012 Winners and Losers – 122,000 links
    Grid-scale Energy Storage: Lux Predicts $113.5 Billion ... – 30,000 links
    Hybrid Locomotives, Vehicle Electrification at Relevant Scale – 43,400 links
    Is Lithium-ion a Borgia Battery? – 108,000 links
    Battery-powered Locomotives – Compellingly Green Economics – 43,300 links
    Confessions of an EV Pioneer Turned Heretic – 27,900 links
    EV Dreams and Industrial Metal Nightmares – 25,200 links
    Stop-Start Realities and EV Fantasies – 14,000 links
    Anti-Hype in Lithium-ion Batteries Foretells Doom for Electric Cars – 2,380 links
    Tesla's Gift Box – Inefficiency Wrapped in Hype – 493 links

     

    These stats may not mean much to you guys, but they impress the hell out of me because they guarantee that the number of people who’ve heard Axion’s name is immense, even if the number of people who’ve climbed their wall of worry and bought shares is tiny. About this time last year I wrote an Instablog titled “The Blogger’s Real Influence.” Axionistas who haven’t read it may want to.

     

    http://bit.ly/sk4Y20
    3 Jun 2012, 03:17 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2046) | Send Message
     
    JP,
    Thanks for the link, I missed that last year.
    3 Jun 2012, 03:29 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I made a couple minor edits this morning to eliminate a run on sentence. While the changes gave the Instablog a new date, none of them were substantive.
    3 Jun 2012, 03:55 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2046) | Send Message
     
    I think I am an investor that just likes the story (the tech and management also). Reminds me of a story I read to my grandkids, The Little Engine that Could (I think I can). Kind of fitting.
    3 Jun 2012, 04:01 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    ... and just as the Little Engine had a mind of its own I think the PbC does too. Every once in a great while a technology comes along that has an amazing will to live and seems capable of overcoming huge challenges. The PbC has done that in spades and seems to be firmly in charge of its own destiny. We all underestimated its potential in 2003. At this point I'm just along for the ride and have no intention of leaving the theatre until the final credits roll.
    3 Jun 2012, 04:28 AM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    Possibly more of a ride master in my opinion.

     

    I for one am so very thankful that you, John, have put yourself out there to expound the virtues of a technology that most of us would have never heard of much less taken an interest in but which may truly be a world changing vehicle.

     

    Yes I am expecting a large financial return for my contribution but beyond that I do hope that this technology may help the world achieve real and significant energy savings going forward.
    4 Jun 2012, 05:07 PM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (775) | Send Message
     
    Advanced Automotive Battery Conference Europe
    (AABC Europe 2012)

     

    http://bit.ly/KnGTex
    3 Jun 2012, 08:36 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (775) | Send Message
     
    The ESA 23rd Annual Meeting

     

    http://bit.ly/JKV2Bc
    3 Jun 2012, 08:52 AM Reply Like
  • CO3
    , contributor
    Comments (244) | Send Message
     
    Let the flames begin ...
    John's newest incendiary device:
    http://seekingalpha.co...
    I see some new commentator's are already lining up to take their
    shots ....
    I noticed you're not suffering fools lightly this time John.
    3 Jun 2012, 10:29 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Some pots need to be kept stirred because ideas and thoughts that I've been expressing for years are finally working their way into the mainstream consciousness. With each effort to explain the realities to the unwilling, the message crystalizes and gets clearer.

     

    It's an uphill battle because the hucksters have had the stage for a long time and sold the public a bill of goods. Nobody wants to be told that he's fallen hook line and sinker for a fairy tale. Every once in a while, though, somebody does listen and every little victory counts.
    3 Jun 2012, 10:41 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    I thought Switzerland was a neutral country?

     

    Hardly seems right throwing bread slices over the wall to the butter side up guys with butter on both sides!

     

    Here, Give em this idea after you buy Welches futures and watch em chase cats around the neighborhood.

     

    http://bit.ly/MniWEQ
    3 Jun 2012, 10:52 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    It's been said that Switzerland is aggressively neutral, but the official neutrality policy does not extend to things like finance, insurance, banking, pharmaceuticals, watches and chocolate.

     

    I've long loved that theory but didn't realize anyone had made an educational video on the subject.
    3 Jun 2012, 11:01 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    John, apropos to that, last week here in the states, fox news aired a special by john stossel on gasoline, fossil fuel, and electric car myths... the electric car myths portion seemed to echo several of your running points. I wouldn't be surprised to learn he was a reader of yours. Since the topic is obviously not going to go away, fwiw, I bet you'd be an excellent guest for his inevitable follow up...
    3 Jun 2012, 03:47 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    John,

     

    I've decided we need a name for the class of articles you write.

     

    The winner has an acronym similar to one we've all come to know IED.

     

    In your case, you articles are EEDs - Evangelical Explosive Devices because they cause such a violent eruption of vituperation that they might as well be classified as explosions..

     

    Research on how to defuse such devices is on-going, but the outlook at present is not hopeful.

     

    We hope to get a grant from the DOE to further this research, but we realize that if we do get such, we likely go BK, after taking sufficient salaries and bonuses to sustain ourselves through the interim period until another boon... er "situation" can be obtained.

     

    So I'm afraid you're on your own here.

     

    Wish I could help more,
    HardToLove
    3 Jun 2012, 04:56 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I appreciate your concern HTL, but the fact is I bring it on myself by not simply getting with the program and worshiping St. Elon of Palo Alto.
    3 Jun 2012, 05:01 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: given their history I'm at a loss to explain why no funding for the JCMF (Jellied Cat Motive Force) immediate commercialization effort, regardless of potential market acceptance and/or lack of infrastructure, has not issued from the DOE.

     

    Has the ASPCA put a kibosh on it? Is there a competing technology consisting of plastic combs dragged over the cat fur? What's the hold up?!

     

    Any thoughts on this would be appreciated as I've recently come across a penny stock ...

     

    HardToLove
    3 Jun 2012, 05:07 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    As I understand the company's, the DOE was ready to fund until the researchers ran into an insurmountable technical problem that could not be solved within EPA guidelines.

     

    ants, lots and lots of ants.
    3 Jun 2012, 05:13 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Two years to the day.

     

    http://bit.ly/MapGmx
    3 Jun 2012, 05:15 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Yep John, I read about that.

     

    But I heard another nasty rumor about the launch of the first prototype bus. They couldn't keep the dogs from jumping under the vehicle.

     

    The DOE finally walked away in disgust because they have so much invested in dogs!
    3 Jun 2012, 05:30 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    "ants, lots and lots of ants"

     

    LoL! Seriously!

     

    HardToLove
    3 Jun 2012, 05:52 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2282) | Send Message
     
    I have a couple questions about the annual meeting coming up this month.

     

    1) How are these meetings affected by Fair Disclousure rules?

     

    2) Since I can't attend, can I interest someone in asking about the latest on Viridity Energy's FERC back and forth and how it affects the sales of PowerCubes? I believe Tom suggested on the Year End call that there we might expect some clarity from FERC by the end of June.

     

    I'm really wondering whether he thinks sales are waiting on the final rules to be written so that the bean counters have the best numbers to use in making their case for purchase.

     

    I must say I'm disappointed we haven't seen somebody buy a PowerCube this calendar year (other than the net-Zero Naval building since it's so small.) I'd like the company's view on why it hasn't happened.
    3 Jun 2012, 12:00 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Advancements in this area help all since it's a big part of the cost equation.

     

    http://bit.ly/JELW4d

     

    http://bit.ly/M0S1fI
    3 Jun 2012, 12:38 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Are you suggesting that power conversion and control systems won't follow a Moore's Law price progression either? Oooooh nooo.
    3 Jun 2012, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    But hare quick compared to batteries. :))

     

    I do like it when support equipment of this magnitude drops in price though. Makes the other guys in the "Cube" look more attractive.

     

    One of my distant left coast cousins. Working better than the windmill...so far. Now, Where to put the battery.

     

    http://bit.ly/LdxpBT
    3 Jun 2012, 03:10 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (1986) | Send Message
     
    "Internet Tourette's".

     

    Something we witness daily in the comments on JP's articles.

     

    http://bit.ly/KIe22Q
    3 Jun 2012, 12:38 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    That is absolutely priceless. What a find. I can't stop laughing.
    3 Jun 2012, 01:20 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9482) | Send Message
     
    SMaturin: Hilarious (^#^*#$!*!'n) slant! Great Sunday comedy.
    3 Jun 2012, 01:34 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (1986) | Send Message
     
    I thought you would appreciate it, John.

     

    I am pleased to see you are putting it to good use over on your latest article.
    3 Jun 2012, 03:27 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    They failed to identify JP as a contributing factor though.

     

    HardToLove
    3 Jun 2012, 05:14 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    "Chinese automaker BYD's name stands for "build your dreams," and so far, BYD's dreams of mass-producing electric cars and hybrids have been far greater than their actual sales. That's not stopped them from taking a leap with their next model and building a pop-up robot into the dashboard that responds to voice commands. Someone's a big fan of EVE from "Wall-E.""

     

    Pop. I smell something hot Dave. Get out quick!

     

    Why am I thinking of Wall-E-World?

     

    http://yhoo.it/KCJcsc
    3 Jun 2012, 02:51 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    It's even cuter than Elon's touch screen that lets you compose a novel while driving.
    3 Jun 2012, 02:57 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    DOE's next big push in the materials sector for energy efficiency/security.

     

    http://bit.ly/Mo3vMN
    3 Jun 2012, 03:34 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    For a couple years now I've been working with a couple partners on a company that will recycle rare earth permanent magnets back into NdFeB powders that can be re-sintered into commodity grade magnets without having to go back through the alloying process.

     

    We looked at the DOE plan and decided their money wasn't worth the trouble. Besides, everybody knows that if you get a big pile of government money it's the fast lane to Bankruptcy Court and as reliable as the Curse of Tutankhamun.
    3 Jun 2012, 04:47 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Thanks re: the DOE funding.

     

    The recycling interests me because I'd think it would be hard to find and collect the raw material from the waste stream. Often the magnets are bonded to the motor casing and many recycling centers just shred everything which would turn the glass like magnets into a mess mixed with the fluff.

     

    Anyway, I wish you and them good fortune.
    3 Jun 2012, 05:05 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    We're hoping to get junk dealers to pay pick a part for a price that's way more attractive than straight scrap. The lab science looks for 100 kg batches and so do the economics. Now it's just a question of scale.
    3 Jun 2012, 05:17 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Yeah, I'd run that down in my business model because it would be important to see how costly it would be to strip the motors from the various installations and then pay the cost to tear down the motors.

     

    Oh, And you have to ID all the apps they are in. Maybe not so bad for the high volume ones.

     

    Anyway, Sounds interesting. Best of luck to another creative group of individuals.
    3 Jun 2012, 05:45 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    Maybe the DOE can use the money to help build roads on public lands to allow for the exploration and movement of rare earths from the locations they've already been found here in the US? Naw...wouldn't work. Would make way too much sense.
    4 Jun 2012, 04:41 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    LabTech: with the DOE's record the roads they built would crumble upon first year's use, create a big sink hole and swallow every vehicle that tried to traverse the terrain.

     

    *Not* having roads funded by the DOE may be the smartest move they've (not) made in a long time.

     

    HardToLove
    4 Jun 2012, 04:44 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    John I have a pittance of knowledge in this area.

     

    What would be the source of materials that could be recycled?

     

    Is the volume significant?

     

    Does any other enterprise do this already?

     

    Is this venture targeting the wind turbine industry?
    4 Jun 2012, 05:15 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I think I've probably said more than I should and would rather not say any more at this time.
    4 Jun 2012, 05:18 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    touche

     

    I believe we are kindred spirits.
    4 Jun 2012, 05:24 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >LabTech ... With all the hand wringing here about government subsidizing business & picking winners, how could it possibly be reasonable to build roads to mine sites? That would continue the US government as venture capitalist and I believe we're kinda' tired of this. There are other indirect ways to support private expansion that holds benefits to the country even if individual companies fail.
    4 Jun 2012, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    DRich,
    I don't want them to be venture capitalist, but I do want them to acknowledge that there are areas in this country, where there are surveying results that suggest rare earths deposits, but the sites can't be exploited by companies because they need to go across public lands that are inaccessible and which the US government won't allow roads to be built on. I'm not asking them to dig the mines. I'm just asking them to supply infrastructure to allow it to happen. Or at least stop preventing it from happening.
    4 Jun 2012, 10:37 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >LabTech ... I'm rather REE ignorant so I'm not going to say the resources are commercial or not. I can't make any assessment whether these REE are even needed because of all the other projects under development. I do feel that there exist at the moment a near mania to dig up everything, anywhere in a rather chaotic manner. Natural gas is my template here. Lots of wells, too much gas, not enough pipeline & shut-in wells require nearly as much work to bring back as original drilling. It seems awfully politically noisy, poorly planned, poorly supported by infrastructure and poorly financed.

     

    When Western mineral resources come up there is the oil shale of Colorado. The argument that the government is standing in the way of making the USA energy independent sounds good but is closer to wrong than right. Truth is that it could easily take a Trillion dollars of infrastructure to do that project right. The simple assessment of whether it makes economic sense to do it & who is going to pay for it is almost never talked about. Feels like a quick buck land grab. It will be developed, I just don't see how NOW is the time for lack of planning.

     

    For me, it kind of boils down to an economic argument that makes as much sense as scrapping ICE in favor of EV. An intuitively pleasing idea, very poorly planned and probably turn into an uneconomic mess. Just sayin' I feel there is more than government standing in the way.
    4 Jun 2012, 11:35 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Good points. Building a billion dollars in infrastructure in order to harvest 100million in resources makes no sense, yet its true that government often does not examine the numbers as they should.

     

    I have personal experience where this sort of thing has happened in the lumber industry.

     

    I would be supportive of an "audit" of federal property, particularly if it included these sorts of basic cost/benefit analyses. I believe we will soon be looking around for 'shovel ready' infrastructure projects seeking to skyhook our economy out of the ditch, and best case in that scenario would be that we try to create something with a long lifespan and a sound economic basis rather than a scattered handful of politcally correct temporary jobs costing millions of dollars each.
    5 Jun 2012, 07:31 AM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    OFF TOPIC

     

    Heres one i never expected. I live in a condo and our water bill is split evenly between everyone because of one meter per building housing 6 families. To my surprise our water bill actually went DOWN!!!

     

    That has never happened to me and i have owned this unit since the late 80's..

     

    Just found that interesting since our municipalities are supposedly broke..Only in NY!!!

     

    map
    3 Jun 2012, 05:35 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Looks like Virginia International Terminal has returned at least one of their two Green Goats that was on lease from NS. I had thought for some time that NS might look to upgrade some of these with PBC batteries but it looks like they are going to strip em.

     

    http://bit.ly/LdzZWW
    3 Jun 2012, 06:05 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    This is off topic and assuredly self-serving, but I have a personal problem involving battery power...

     

    As some of you know I'm a professional illustrator and I am now doing 30+ art shows per year (most out of doors) selling my artwork and that of my wife (she makes gold and silver jewelry). We are now encountering shows which have nightime hours, but do not provide access to electric power... And portable generators are banned.

     

    Batteries are the preferred answer, and I have seen folks using marine batteries and 12volt lights and fans (gets hot down south). I have been studying portable power solutions (mostly offshoots of battery jump starting equipment that have grown to 1150amps or more and with built in coverters and a couple of 110 outlets). My problem is that I need to power several hundred watts of lights plus a small (10 or 12 inch) portable fan, preferably 2 fans, for at least 4 or 5 hours at a stretch.

     

    If anyone has any ideas I would love to hear them. We already use 18v Ryobi fans with rechargeables (2 NMIH batteries per fan last us about 1 working day before exhaustion).

     

    I have seen portable power systems for sale at places like Northern Tool that run about $500-$600 and look robust enough to do the job, but its more than I wanted to spend, and very heavy, and transport space is at a premium.
    3 Jun 2012, 07:25 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    TB, I don't think you're going to get there from here if that is your budget and those are your requirements... Sounds like you're needing something like at least 2KWh or so of usable battery. (~400W x 5 hours) Which is not small. Any chance you can reduce the wattage requirements of your lighting? Several hundred watts of lights sounds like a lot. Though I would imagine you're trying to illuminate artwork, which wouldn't look right under fluorescent or LED lights... so I guess not... but at the risk of talking my book, possibly you could try Vu1 ESL reflector bulbs ...

     

    http://low.es/KIRnU0

     

    These give full spectrum light and use a lot fewer watts than incandescent or halogen.. (although they do require AC not DC) I have two of them myself and they work very well, but right now supply is pretty sporadic (supposed to improve this summer), so I don't know how long you'd have to wait for them, but if you could get hold of some, they might help with at least part of your problem...
    3 Jun 2012, 07:46 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Right now my minimum light requirement is about 300watts (we have to light jewelry, which is even tougher than 2d art). I have halogen now, and hate flourescents, but I have looked at LED options...

     

    Thanks. I have been doing this business for decades, but the markets are shifting to more late night venues and the prejudice against generators has me cornered.
    3 Jun 2012, 07:54 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Just one other comment. If you have the fans already can you leave that off the load requirements?
    3 Jun 2012, 08:08 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    Not to spam the thread, but this just now popped on my vu1 google alert, and gives a good idea of the tech...

     

    http://bit.ly/KZtyWF

     

    You could use ten of these bulbs and only draw 200 watts...
    3 Jun 2012, 08:35 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    TB, sounds like a fun project and it looks like you have already attracted the perfect staff (iindelco,86)...

     

    So, it sounds like I might run into you while walking a board walk checking out the local artisans - very cool and definitely a favorite pass time for me. I am hoping that someday I might get an idea that may led me to create something that others might value.

     

    My first thoughts on the lighting are a motion detector and minimizing power consumption. For cooling I am thinking about misting with water instead of just a constant fan.

     

    This sounds like a fun little project. How about starting an instablog to talk about a high tech artisan booth for after hours use...
    3 Jun 2012, 09:16 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    I am seriously considering going to LEDs, despite the cost. If I can find them compatible with my track lights...

     

    We actually need the 110 fans to supplement our Ryobis (we keep the Ryobis focused on our own hot bodies, and want to upgrade to provide some cooling for our guests...

     

    Water mist system has been a consideration for Nancy's booth, but is a no-go for someone selling art on paper like myself...

     

    The blog discussing this OT item (and thanks to all for your patience) is at: http://bit.ly/IktkuM
    3 Jun 2012, 09:58 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Tim, excellent suggestion.
    3 Jun 2012, 09:59 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    One last suggestion, and this would be a cheap lash up, but you should be able get a medium sized computer UPS, with enough AC output for your loads, for around 100 bucks anywhere....and when you open one of those up, you'll see they typically have a small sealed 12V lead-acid gel cell inside, with standard connections. So in addition if you buy a couple (or more) 12V deep cycle marine batteries and connect them in (one at a time) in lieu of the UPS's small gel-cell, it should give you a reasonable amount of time per battery.. how much time will depend on the load and the battery of course, but it could be workable...
    3 Jun 2012, 10:00 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2057) | Send Message
     
    You are wasting gobs of power with incandescents. There are a LOTS of LEDs light available now, many with tunable colors. You should be able to reduce your electric load by 80-90% cf incandescent. We converted some of our jewelry display cases to LED to reduce the heat load in the cases. PM me if you want more info. They aren't cheap, but will last decades.

     

    Look at marine catalogs for 12 v LED. Start at http://bit.ly/LrkI2s%20Popular|0&N=377...

     

    LEDs have much less heat, so fan requirements will be lessened. Ryobi has extra large Li-ion batteries for their fans, and probably will last all day compared to the NiMH. Check to make sure your charger is compatible; you may need a new charger. You can get 12 volt marine fans, too.

     

    My experience with Northern Tool has been cheap, and you get almost what you pay for. YMMV. I suspect NT has power battery setups (for jump starts and short term 110). AVOID - you need an energy setup, low amps, long duration. NB: cheap inverters are true energy pigs, and will waste most of your battery juice running its own fan. For 20 minutes doesn't matter, but probably can run the battery down to zippo in a day with no actual use of power. A good inverter is very worth while.

     

    For batteries, I have been very happy with Deka (East Penn) gel batteries. Sealed, so no danger of spillage. Much better deep discharge properties than AGM. Very important to get a proper charger, so avoid Walmart and Sears.
    3 Jun 2012, 10:06 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    TB, Be careful with the LED choice. Not sure if it matters in your setting but part to part variation in output is generally not good. Higher cost matched sets are often gotten by sorting. Also the diffusion is in most cases is poor and the full viewing angle of illumination is a very important consideration (How can you look at your art if the dispersion is not uniform over the field of display?). You already know about the poor full color spectrum from LEDs. I'd really give 48's proposal a look.

     

    As a starting point take a look at what others around you are using to see if they have a set-up that gets you off on the right foot. Maybe go to a lighting store (call around) with a piece of your artwork and see if they have a display area so you can cycle through some options. Also try calling some local art galleries or drop in to see if they have already done some of the leg work in their energy saving mission. Don't just order something off the internet based on output/price as I think you'll not be very happy.

     

    A quick search for "LED lighting for art galleries" yielded this as a first link. There were more.

     

    http://bit.ly/MaPJtT

     

    "This tape will self destruct in 5 seconds" Good luck TB.
    3 Jun 2012, 10:52 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2046) | Send Message
     
    TB,
    When I click on the link I get a form to write an Instablog.
    3 Jun 2012, 11:45 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Sorry, looks like either SA killed my nascent blog or I just hit the wrong button. Thanks for all the help, guys!
    4 Jun 2012, 09:12 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Rick, Tim, everyone...

     

    I am looking at LEDs now...

     

    I have been avoiding the Liion batteries for the simple reason that I already own 6 NiMH batteries which are in perfect health. I will be replacing those with the Liion versions as they die... I believe 1 Liion battery might last a full day (9am -6 or 7pm for most shows) for the fans, though they are energy hogs when set on high.

     

    I have a good inverter (no fans, but a large heat sink, its older though, so maybe it was just "good" back when).

     

    I had already made a note to seek out Deka batteries, if for no other reason than that perhaps Axion is linked there...
    4 Jun 2012, 09:19 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2046) | Send Message
     
    Hi TB,
    I think that Tim may be the expert in mobile applications for energy production and storage for off the shelf solutions. As a class 8 truck owner/operator having to meet the no idle regulations with 10 hour mandated rest breaks and an electrical background.
    3 Jun 2012, 07:49 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2423) | Send Message
     
    Thought I posted this here, but appears I didn't -

     

    New presentation from Viridity discussing Axion as well.

     

    http://bit.ly/M4Qe5d
    4 Jun 2012, 10:20 AM Reply Like
  • Lafferty
    , contributor
    Comments (253) | Send Message
     
    Looks like a previously undisclosed Axion Power project proposal is revealed here: see p. 26: the Fort Meade project proposal includes a "500kW/285 kWh carbon lead acid battery."

     

    I say 'proposal' because this is the heading on the presentation, but note that Viridity has already been selected to provide the energy optimization services:
    http://bit.ly/IFyNHX

     

    Great find, Stefan!
    4 Jun 2012, 10:41 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2423) | Send Message
     
    It appears they are also using a Demand Response Inverter ("DRI") from Princeton Power -

     

    http://bit.ly/KK4Afn
    4 Jun 2012, 10:45 AM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9482) | Send Message
     
    Stephan & Lafferty: I believe the Fort Meade potential project has been discussed here before (a couple of months ago?). Yesterday, I was speaking to my nephew, an Axion owner, and an Air Force attorney who does contract work at Wright Patterson Air Force Base.

     

    I mentioned to him about the Fort Meade possibility (as well as one other Army base that I couldn't recall the name), and for him to keep a heads up for an Axion semi pulling into Wright Pattersen, because there are seven Air Force bases pushing to convert to renewable energy -- lower the carbon footprint.

     

    Good to see that Fort Meade might be a "next" order.
    4 Jun 2012, 11:10 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2282) | Send Message
     
    He should be looking for a Princeton Power Semi as well, but it gets tricky. Note how the Fort Bliss PR for Princeton was written:
    http://bit.ly/LhjFVd

     

    "The Ft. Bliss microgrid installation is being managed by Lockheed Martin, who is the prime contractor on the program."

     

    Here the pic and the details:
    http://bit.ly/ryWTGv

     

    Note: "The system is built on 100kW inverter building-blocks, and can support several battery technologies including sealed lead-acid, large-format lithium-iron-phosphate, and hybrid lead-acid. "

     

    I presume Axion is the "hybrid lead-acid."

     

    This whole topic would make for a good annual meeting question. Princeton is both a customer, supplier, and a competitor (to the PowerCube.) I don't know that Tom would answer a question about Princeton directly, you could generalize it, or come at it sideways:

     

    Can you talk about how inverter suppliers are selected for the PowerCube?

     

    Note that inverters are generally the highest cost part in an Energy Storage System. Don't those companies have significantly more expertise in this potential market than AXPW?

     

    I'm not clear on how fast the inverter market changes. There's also FERC regulations that change on what demands will be placed on the inverters. I understand the rules are quite different in Europe: http://bit.ly/LhjGIt

     

    Is Intel in the computer business? Should Axion be in the PowerCube business? Is the competition now (or soon) so competitive that we won't make the kind of money many of us hoped for? Note ZBB is in there fighting as well as BOTH an inverter maker and a "battery" maker.

     

    Are joint ventures better? It's a shame that we have no idea what's inside the Princeton Power ESS ... can we get an "Axion Inside" branding at least? Is that "branding" negotiation ongoing, has it failed with Princeton, is Lockheed controlling PRs about this?
    4 Jun 2012, 01:00 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2282) | Send Message
     
    Of course, to be fair, I don't suppose PowerCubes say "Princeton Power Systems DRIs Inside" either!

     

    Should we turn (generic) PowerCubes into Stock cars and Stock car drivers with advertising patches everywhere?

     

    I wonder how Viridity Energy sees the tradeoffs between the AXPW and Princeton Power systems.

     

    It seems to me that in a truly price competitive market, the inverter companies win as they would never sell it to Axion for what they would sell it to themselves as a System Integrator.

     

    ZBB's CEO made an interesting comment (perhaps in reply to Stefan's Question about $$/MWh ?) about customers not SO concerned about what type/cost of battery was inside their system as long as it met the specs. They were most interested in the cost of the total system, and availability.

     

    Right now he would have you believe it's somewhat of a sellers market, though I'm not seeing the PRs from these types of companies to convince me there's really a LOT being sold yet. Maybe a lot bid, but signed sealed contracts ... not quite yet.
    4 Jun 2012, 02:53 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Yeah Maya, It was discussed and this was posted. Looks like they went deep cycle LAB.

     

    http://bit.ly/A79vvZ
    4 Jun 2012, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • Lafferty
    , contributor
    Comments (253) | Send Message
     
    Just to clarify, iindelco is right that Ft. Bliss is going with deep cycle LAB: but that is of course independent from the Ft. Meade carbon lead acid project proposal referenced in Stefan's link.
    4 Jun 2012, 03:10 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Oop's Thanks Lafferty. Good thing I'm not in a war. I Might end up fighting on the wrong side!
    4 Jun 2012, 03:30 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2282) | Send Message
     
    Who provides deep cycle LABs?

     

    Sounds to the uninitiated like a very generic term.

     

    Why do we think they were chosen ... and the PbC was not?

     

    If we miss out on much of the military market, I'm gonna be a little worried.

     

    I take it Start-Stop are "shallow/frequent" cycle?

     

    Where are locomotives on the continuum?
    Switchers much different than over the road?
    4 Jun 2012, 03:50 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >wtblanchard ... I believe the Enersys batteries provided for the first NS999 were described just that way.
    4 Jun 2012, 03:55 PM Reply Like
  • Lafferty
    , contributor
    Comments (253) | Send Message
     
    Wtblanchard: regarding military apps, I, for one, am encouraged that Viridity is as interested in Axion Power as they are. Viridity has some strong connections in this market:

     

    http://bit.ly/KFAWHY

     

    And remember that TG has referred to multiple replies to RFPs out with Viridity on military contracts (2011 year end CC).

     

    Further, I am now even more confident that Viridity will be looking to Axion to provide the batteries for the second Septa project.
    4 Jun 2012, 04:03 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    WTB, Deep cycle LABs is a pretty common term in the industry which relates to basically, as you can imagine, their intended use which is to use them as a energy source and drain them significantly. Generally apps like motor homes, UPS systems etc would use them. Axion's offering is good for this purpose as well but contrasts in that it will not hold as much energy but lasts far longer.

     

    Can't say why a deep cycle LAB's were chosen over PBC. Could be because PBC is not in production. Maybe because PBC just got an APP in the US Navy and most of these are demonstration projects. The industry is still trying to sort all this out as is the military so they are looking to implement different technologies and see what makes the most sense.

     

    I think the yard loco and the OTR loco are different apps. Significantly? I guess you'd have to define significant. The packaging will be different and the method of charging will be different. Is the OTR loco ever going to be plugged in? I'm not sure.

     

    Worrying, isn't that a given when investing. Especially in penny stocks. I worry most about how biased everyone seems toward lithium. I worry less when I realize the size of the market and how good the specs are for the PBC tech.

     

    If they can scale this thing without floating too many shares I think it's a real winner. Don't think the tech. is going to go away it's just a matter of how far you go based on when you get on board. Always an obvious consideration for any investment.
    4 Jun 2012, 04:17 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    PbC performs better than LA in large strings. I think that fact will continue to bubble up again and again in all these test projects...
    4 Jun 2012, 04:29 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    86, you can just go ahead and say it (fine with me)...

     

    PbC: King in a string...
    4 Jun 2012, 04:49 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2423) | Send Message
     
    This Viridity presentation was given on May 23, 2012 at the National Defense Industrial Association's - Environment, Energy Security & Sustainability Symposium & Exhibition - under the topic Energy Security - Grids.

     

    Was trying to figure out how old the carbon lead acid mention was ...

     

    http://bit.ly/Lh5SiJ
    4 Jun 2012, 11:08 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Once again it looks like the information starved Axionistas have snarked the market and found a tremendous clue to the next likely event. A 285 kWh PbC array will probably be on the order of 500 batteries, or roughly $200,000 at the per battery price paid by NS.

     

    The halo value of a contract to support the Fort Meade micro grid could be enormous because that's a trophy installation.
    5 Jun 2012, 02:33 AM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9482) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: April 29 comment [extracted].

     

    --However, don't count [out] a deal with Viridity Energy/Axion and the Army's, Fort Meade. Fort Meade, in the below link, is listed as one of Viridity's clients:

     

    http://bit.ly/KnNpvX

     

    ####

     

    The above comment was buried underneath my belief (guess) that SEPTA is next up as a potential decent-sized PbC order.
    5 Jun 2012, 09:14 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Hey Bang, I don't think these two older Sandia reports are on your web site for ref. materials. (Well I couldn't find them!) Could you please add them if they are not as they are good for ref.

     

    The first is FAR from perfect but it has extensive work on PBC.

     

    http://bit.ly/JpSR6L

     

    http://bit.ly/uW0Icz
    4 Jun 2012, 10:41 AM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2224) | Send Message
     
    Done IIndelco.
    4 Jun 2012, 03:00 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Bang, You're da man!
    4 Jun 2012, 03:07 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1887) | Send Message
     
    Totally off-topic but this is just insane --
    The Chinese index today fell 64.89 points matching the June 4th 1989 date of the Tiananmen square crack-down on its 23rd anniversary, and..."In another twist, the Shanghai Composite Index .SSEC opened at 2346.98 points on the 23rd anniversary of the killings. The numbers 46.98 could be read as June 4, 1989, backwards."

     

    http://reut.rs/NdbMSJ

     

    crazy
    4 Jun 2012, 07:15 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    (AXPW): EOD stuff.
    # Trds: 33, MinTrSz: 100, MaxTrSz: 20000, Vol 153292, AvTrSz: 4645
    Min. Pr: 0.3220, Max Pr: 0.3800, VW Avg. Trade Pr: 0.3345
    # Buys, Shares: 11 27080, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.3500
    # Sells, Shares: 21 122630, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.3333
    # Unkn, Shares: 1 3582, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.3450
    Buy:Sell 1:4.53, Daily Short %: 13.2

     

    Although it looks like we broke below $0.33, which we did, it was exactly *one* trade of 20K shares at 12:08:37.

     

    Removing this *one* trade would put the low at $0.33 and the VWAP at $0.3364. Removing this same transaction would put the buy:sell at 1:3.79, not great by any means but a lot better than 1:4.53.

     

    14 of the trades went at >= $0.34, totaling 60,492, roughly half the volume for the day. Another 23.2K went at less than $0.34 but >= $0.335.

     

    Considering that we apparently have one or mmore folks that want out badly, we're holding up fairly well.

     

    We're coming to the end of this as the volume continues to trend lower with my experimental charts showing both the 10 and 25-day average volume now running below the 50-day and dropping.

     

    The daily short sales continues to decline, suggesting to me that we don't have a *lot* of fresh sell orders from outside the market-makers' owning brokers coming in. I believe this means continued stability in the VWAP, with a slight negative bias.

     

    But as I mentioned, indications are that this trend is going to change soon. My bet is attacking the $0.37 area, but we do now know that there are some folks just dumping out, so well-disciplined bottom-feeders, such as myself, may try to take advantage of that.

     

    I have to admit, I gened up several buy orders today and would have bought ~ 20K-25K shares today *except* that I'm using dry powder for other things ATM. I didn't submit any of those orders - managing cash to meet my objectives ATM takes priority.

     

    MHO, experimental, still learning, hoping this is useful,
    HardToLove
    4 Jun 2012, 07:33 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    Thanks HTL! I find that I am looking forward to this report more and more each day... onward to listen to Maya's interview...
    4 Jun 2012, 08:23 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    This is the benefit of HTL's efforts (other than he's "giving it away", and therefore ranks as one of the most generous people anywhere), that as you follow it over time the data accumulates into valuable insight.
    5 Jun 2012, 07:38 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    TB: Objectively, my efforts pale in comparison to what you also provide for free. Add in JP , Iindelco, Stephan, ... and all the folks that dig in our fertile soils.

     

    AFAICT, I'm only (mostly) digging where others are not and the benefit of that effort are as yet undetermined.

     

    I'm glad you brought it up though because it's been a long time since I thanked everyone for their generosity in sharing that which has allowed me to do much better than I would otherwise.

     

    My thanks to all!

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    5 Jun 2012, 08:52 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >H.T.Love ... Hear! Hear! Even as the scope of interests is limited (a good thing I think), this group of bloggers, posters and even the transients/interlopers, has made for a great iNet investment club. I thank all for their effort.

     

    Couldn't be confident without it.
    5 Jun 2012, 09:55 AM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (411) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » New concentrator this way --------------------->

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    4 Jun 2012, 08:14 PM Reply Like
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