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  • Axion Power Concentrator 112: June 10, 2012: Bottom Feeders Alert 221 comments
    Jun 10, 2012 11:24 AM | about stocks: AXPW

    These instablogs and the people who maintain them have no relationship whatsoever to Axion Power International. To our direct knowledge no person with a current relationship to Axion Power International other than being a shareholder participates in these instablogs.

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    Bottom Feeder's Alert: provided by JP

    I've recently learned that 2 million shares that were held by the Mega-C Shareholders Trust are being turned over to the Bankruptcy Trustee.

    The Court Order requiring the turnover of the shares was signed on June 1st. -

    dl.dropbox.com/u/26257506/6.1.12%20Turno...

    I expect the Bankruptcy Trustee to start selling as soon as the shares are deposited to his account.

    I don't expect him to be gentle and there will probably be some pushing and shoving around the pay window until the shares are sold.

    I will not be surprised if the Bankruptcy Trustee's selling puts unexpected downward pressure on the stock price. Since the order requires the shares to be delivered to the Bankruptcy Trustee's brokerage account, I do not expect the sales to show up in HTL's short tracking data.

    I have not heard back from my contacts who are trying to find out how many shares remain in the hands of other willing sellers, but I expect the Bankruptcy Trustee to create a great short-term opportunity for bottom feeders who understand where the shares are coming from and why.

    It's not often that individuals get advance notice of an opportunity to buy stock in a bankruptcy sale. Happy hunting.

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    Axion Power's Weighted Moving Average Price and Volume:

    (updated June 10th)

    (click to enlarge)

    Concentrator Comments: 20,000 comments surpassed on June 1st!

    (updated June 10th)

    (click to enlarge)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    LINKS to valuable Axion Power Research and websites:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites created by APC commentator Bangwhiz it is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one; including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Axion Power Website, the first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

    Axion Power Chart Tracking, HTL tracks AXPW's intra-day charting.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    WARNING: This is a troll free zone. We reserve the right to eliminate posts, or posters that are disruptive.

    Enjoy!

    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

Back To Axion Power Host's Instablog HomePage »

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Comments (221)
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  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    Wha-hoooooo!

     

    Lurking mode... activated.

     

    Come to turtle...
    10 Jun 2012, 11:50 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1910) | Send Message
     
    The starfish will be sucking up your crumbs off the floor :-)

     

    I guess the questions are...
    How low the Axionista's let it go before eating up?
    How much dry-powder can one sweep together?

     

    A concern for me though is that this stock just will not recover from so much punishment. I keep thinking of JP's nano-tech company that has been wallowing for two decades and I worry that financing round after financing round where the buyers become sellers will keep the stock on the floor unable to rise. Is that a rational fear? Probably not, because Axion has a business model where revenue is going to ramp up and drive demand, but it does become a nagging thought of mine when looking for what can go wrong.
    10 Jun 2012, 12:04 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    I go back to "broken stock vs. broken company".

     

    The Q for me is "Can the non-broken company overcome the ill-effects of the broken stock?".

     

    I'm invested sufficiently (for me) long that the answer better be "Yes!".

     

    I wish the shares had been transferred long ago, as the order suggests should have happened, so that we were further away from the next capital raise.

     

    HardToLove
    10 Jun 2012, 03:33 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1910) | Send Message
     
    Yes has always been my answer too, I just am not sure how confident I am in my personal investing experience to know when to change my answer in light of continually changing circumstances.
    10 Jun 2012, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    On day 39 Noah swore it would never stop raining because he didn't have me tracking the satellite photos. I can't pick an inside date because the data is a little too fuzzy, but the selling can't continue past the end of the summer. I wouldn't have started the process of doing back channel intelligence and put myself out on a limb with this group if I wasn't pretty sure that the bottom of the barrel was close enough to scoop it out with a measuring cup.
    10 Jun 2012, 03:52 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1910) | Send Message
     
    Thanks that gave me a good laugh.

     

    I have to just keep remembering that a good company always corrects a broken stock over time.
    10 Jun 2012, 05:17 PM Reply Like
  • Bylo-
    , contributor
    Comments (388) | Send Message
     
    Finger on the trigger!
    10 Jun 2012, 11:59 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2176) | Send Message
     
    JP, since the shares were (presumably) transferred 6/1 at 2pm, aren't they already on the market? Recent trading appears to show they are dumping at 35 cents, not below. It appears that the Trustee has until 6/29 to complete the transaction.

     

    What am I missing? Do you think the price will crater before 6/29? My uneducated trading gut thinks they market will absorb all 2m shares without a crisis: it is only $750,000.
    10 Jun 2012, 12:02 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    It usually takes about a week for stock to move from one brokerage account to another and clear back room processing. The bankruptcy trustee could have been the reason for the dip on Friday but it's hard to tell for sure.

     

    While I hate to suggest antisocial behavior, this may be one of those times when showing size at a low price may be enough to pull the seller down.

     

    There's no way to prove it, but I believe ruthless pushing and shoving by this bankruptcy trustee and the liquidator of a hedge fund were the primary reason for the April-June 2010 price collapse.
    10 Jun 2012, 12:10 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    John, How many more shares does the Mega-C Shareholders Trust hold? Too lazy to go back and look for a data point that's probably at the tip of your tongue.

     

    In all actuality it's looking like there is little reason to buy here until the paperwork for the next round of financing comes out which will probably be Q3.
    10 Jun 2012, 12:29 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    As I understand the situation, this 2 million shares is all that's left.

     

    It's a damned shame that the people who caused the injury in the first place caused the second round of injury too, but sometimes life works out that way.

     

    I think a financing is likely in Q4, but not Q3 which ends in September. Heck, the financial community doesn't get back from vacation in Q3 much less close deals.
    10 Jun 2012, 12:58 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Yes, I remember the discussion on the timing of financing. I was thinking that the paperwork would require time in the market place to allow vetting (if that's the right word) and all the other pre-steps required before placement.

     

    Of coarse, I'm talking at your podium.
    10 Jun 2012, 01:07 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    You know I follow volume, reported FINRA short sales and holding reports very carefully. Based on everything I've seen I believe the legacy holders (a.k.a. willing sellers) will be out of stock before the end of the summer. Once that last bit of slop is absorbed the price will respond, or at least it has every other time I've watched a former client go through the same type of supply and demand imbalance.

     

    I wrote two instablogs on this subject around Christmas. They are important to understand.

     

    http://bit.ly/uzNPG2
    http://bit.ly/xHrjyl
    10 Jun 2012, 01:17 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3898) | Send Message
     
    If the Trustee only has until 6/29 to complete the transaction and 2,000,000 shares are liquidated, that implies a 95,238 share per day selling rate. Assuming it takes a week for the shares to move into a broker's account and clear backroom processing as JP suggests, that selling rate would jump to 125,000/day.
    10 Jun 2012, 01:23 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    June 29th is the cut-off date for the Mega-C Trust to provide an accounting to the Court. It has nothing to do with the timing of stock sales by the Bankruptcy Trustee.
    10 Jun 2012, 01:31 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Thanks John. I'll catch up again.

     

    Thanks for the tolerance!
    10 Jun 2012, 01:49 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    "The bankruptcy trustee could have been the reason for the dip on Friday but it's hard to tell for sure".

     

    *If* my thoughts that I posted in my charting insta are right, I don't think there was enough shares and duration for this to be selling by the trustee. That's based on the assumption that the trustee would be engaged in a "fire sale" starting early and going throughout the day.

     

    I didn't post those thoughts here because I wanted to spare those with no interest and, of course, I didn't know about this action then.

     

    Now, the possibility immediately enters my mind that the shares might be unloaded inter/intra-broker, by-passing the market-maker(s) and having little to no impact on market price. ISTM that yields the most favorable possible price to the trustee,

     

    Possible? Likely?

     

    HardToLove
    10 Jun 2012, 03:40 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    Just finished reading the reasons and decisions on violation of Canadian security law violations allegations against the Taylors, Pardo, ...

     

    It's a novella in it's own right and good reading.

     

    Talk about "causing injury"!

     

    It was easy to spot the "Black Hats" early in the document.

     

    One surprise, for me, was the conclusion that Staff Counsel did apparently try to get a police officer to change his testimony - but the officer did the right thing(s).

     

    HardToLove
    10 Jun 2012, 03:46 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I have no idea how this is going to go down, but it's always better to have people warned ahead of time that something that seems pretty weird may happen pretty soon. If blocks start showing up at low prices and people aren't expecting something it creates uncertainty and we have enough of that already. If people know the stock is coming, they won't be surprised on the one hand and they may be interested in taking advantage of the fire sale.
    10 Jun 2012, 03:56 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    ........Axion Power. ;))

     

    http://bit.ly/LIUCKG

     

    (But hold off until the bottom feeders are full.)
    10 Jun 2012, 04:14 PM Reply Like
  • jvanwest
    , contributor
    Comments (57) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Who is the hedge fund? Any link to the discussion about that?
    Thanks
    10 Jun 2012, 09:10 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    The first problem fund was the Fursa Master Global Event Driven Fund, which had 2.75 million shares in December 2009, compared to 750,000 shares held by the Mega-C Bankruptcy Estate. While 3.5 million shares sounds like nothing in today's market, the 100-day average volume on April 30, 2010 was 40,650 shares, the 100-day average price was $1.27 and the closing price was $1.02.

     

    The shoving match started in early May and by July 31st, the 100-day average volume stood at 87,700 shares, the 100-day average price was $.83 and the closing price was $.63.

     

    I *think* that price swoon set up a fear dynamic among the small 2009 purchasers who started exiting with their skin intact, but didn't make much on their investment. By the end of the year things had stabilized and the price started to recover nicely in early 2011, but that was when the really big holders started selling. The rest, as they say, is history.
    11 Jun 2012, 12:49 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1500) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Thanks for providing the above information.
    10 Jun 2012, 12:04 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1500) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Just trying to understand: I'm speculating that Joe Picarrilli is the same Joe Picarrilli who is heading up Rosewater? And Mega-C has gone bankrupt and held Axion shares? Thanks.
    10 Jun 2012, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    Long story short.

     

    Mega-C was a fraud that sold stock to individuals in 2001 and 2002 on the basis of a limited license from the original inventors of the PbC. Mega-C defaulted when the Ontario Securities Commission began an investigation. Bottom line - bad guys.

     

    When Axion was formed, a block of stock was set aside in trust for the innocent victims of the Mega-C scam. Axion subsequently forced Mega-C into bankruptcy to clear its title to the PbC technology. Joe Pic stepped in as trustee of the Mega-C Trust after the former trustee died unexpectedly.

     

    Over the years litigation in the bankruptcy court has whittled down the number of shares held in the Mega-C Trust and with this order the Bankruptcy Trustee basically stripped out the last of the assets.

     

    The shares will be sold to pay Mega-C's creditors and bankruptcy costs, which coincidentally include a lot of Trustee fees.

     

    The extended version would overwhelm SA's servers.
    10 Jun 2012, 12:31 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3898) | Send Message
     
    JP > "The shares will be sold to pay Mega-C's creditors and bankruptcy costs, which coincidentally include a lot of Trustee fees."

     

    What are the odds some part of bankruptcy costs are covered by "payment in kind" with AXPW shares?
    10 Jun 2012, 01:27 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I'd be surprised if there were in-kind payments because that leaves way too many opportunities for somebody to complain.
    10 Jun 2012, 01:32 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (968) | Send Message
     
    thanks for the heads up JP
    10 Jun 2012, 12:31 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    This bottom feeder, from the murky depths, longs to soar like an eagle and this selling is really messing with my evolution!
    10 Jun 2012, 12:35 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    If it was a bigger block it could mess with your evolution. Two million shares is like one last tumble with an ex-wife.

     

    The important point is that we know the block is coming and how big it is.
    10 Jun 2012, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    "... really messing with my evolution!"

     

    LoL!

     

    I love that turn of phrase Tim! Keep 'em coming!

     

    HardToLove
    10 Jun 2012, 03:51 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    HTL, you have me confused with someone else... the next one will come when the moon turns blue (or there abouts)...
    10 Jun 2012, 04:38 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    John, Did the original group that the Mega-C Shareholders Trust was set up to compensate ever get any distribution from the trust?
    10 Jun 2012, 12:51 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    No, and that's the biggest tragedy of all. If things had gone according to plan, they would have come out OK. Once an *independent bankruptcy trustee* was appointed and saw a pile of assets ...
    10 Jun 2012, 01:01 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    "Once an *independent bankruptcy trustee* was appointed and saw a pile of assets ... "

     

    Yes, That was my fragmented read from following this over time. Damn shame but alas not as rare as one would hope.

     

    Thanks.
    10 Jun 2012, 01:09 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    My favorite story was a Chapter 11 in the mid-90s that included a litigation trust that was funded with several million. The lawyers negotiated about $25 million of settlements but by the time they were done fighting every penny of principal and recovery had been spent on legal fees.

     

    It reminds me of that old story about the difference between a lawyer and a tick - the tick will drop off if you die.
    10 Jun 2012, 01:35 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    We fought for our clients with every asset they had at their disposal for this positive outcome.

     

    It's my non-mainstream definition of "dead right". Basically "Cutting off the nose to spite the face.". Then we have the people that will do it for you!
    10 Jun 2012, 01:46 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Just to be clear. Are you saying that Joe Pic. from Rosewater is the "independent bankruptcy trustee" who is going to be the one who profits while all the Mega-C people get screwed, or is the bankruptcy trustee someone else?
    11 Jun 2012, 12:36 AM Reply Like
  • rgholbrook
    , contributor
    Comments (116) | Send Message
     
    Thanks yet again for the insights. Wonder if the Trustee is aware of the Concentrator? If the shares are to be used to pay his bills, he can't be happy this site is calling the piranha to dinner.
    10 Jun 2012, 04:34 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I'd be surprised if the Trustee knows about the Concentrators. The last time this Trustee sold there was a lot of pushing and shoving around the bid because the market wasn't liquid. My guess is that he might even see a school of piraña might be a good thing, even if they bite for a few pennies. I hate to think that giving my friends a heads up may inadvertently help somebody who got crossed-off my Christmas card list a couple years ago, but sometimes good things happen to bad people.
    10 Jun 2012, 04:56 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1910) | Send Message
     
    It really is an impressive gift that we have this information beforehand. Thanks.

     

    I am not sure there will ever be another stock we have the luxury of knowing so much about from the technology, to its market dynamics, to its history. Everyone here deserves cred. in contributing and verifying facts but having the former director kind of takes the cake and makes it a truly unique opportunity.
    10 Jun 2012, 05:26 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    There are some people here that are interested in LNG use for locomotives. Here is an older Long Beach study that was done to compare diesel electric tier 0 and 2 to LNG for yard switchers. May be some interesting points for some but I found the report and the management of the program to be amateur at best.

     

    The one thing I did note is that the report didn't take green house gas emissions into account which I found odd given the date of the report. I can kind of understand why this was excluded given the amount of NG they were releasing during the refueling operations. Ughh.

     

    http://bit.ly/LoMcbH
    10 Jun 2012, 05:09 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    When EV reality strikes after the acquisition. They should add a couple slots for some D-cells as well!

     

    http://bit.ly/LNc3pD
    10 Jun 2012, 05:36 PM Reply Like
  • JohnM121
    , contributor
    Comments (360) | Send Message
     
    The cheapest hybrid is a few pbc's with a small generator engine. The ICE can be just big enough run the vehicle, with acceleration coming from pbc.
    10 Jun 2012, 06:27 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2176) | Send Message
     
    JohnM, I doubt a cheap hybrid would use "a couple of PbCs" because there is too much of a weight penalty. A PbC is a good choice to run the AC, not to actually propel the vehicle. The other Li and NMH chemistries are a better choice. What you described "with a small generator" is a full series hybrid, and requires a lot of energy storage. No commercial car yet (AFAIK) is series only; Prius et. al. are parallel hybrids, with the ICE providing traction as well as electricity.

     

    As several of us have pointed out, using a PbC to run a supercharger for acceleration may be effective, but it is a long way from the market.
    10 Jun 2012, 10:10 PM Reply Like
  • Articula
    , contributor
    Comments (245) | Send Message
     
    Certainly frustrating to see another 2M shares on the market, but it's less than 2% available. Hopefully, these go quickly and we can see the company drive the stock price, not market dynamics.
    10 Jun 2012, 08:44 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (968) | Send Message
     
    the tech remains unchanged no matter how many hands the shares pass through. so far this company has held off debt and with orders likely from DoD, NSC income stream and BMW fleet testing i can't help but think some sell pressure is in my interests.

     

    i don't know if it is related, but the BMW test facility in spartanburg will be shutting down manufacturing lines for three weeks. the employees i talked to (2) didn't know why and after repeated inquiries let me know they run electrical lines through the vehicles but battery install is further along in the process.

     

    i should have opportunity to ask more of these employees, but i need help phrasing questions so they yield more useful answers.

     

    the factory builds x5,x6 and z4 now, so it could mean nothing but i figured i'd share.
    10 Jun 2012, 10:23 PM Reply Like
  • Articula
    , contributor
    Comments (245) | Send Message
     
    Totally agree Tragic, the company will win out in the long run as long as the extremely punished stock price doesn't inhibit in pending Q4 capital raise. At that point debt may be the only other avenue, which as I've seen from John is not a fun alternative.
    11 Jun 2012, 09:31 AM Reply Like
  • Articula
    , contributor
    Comments (245) | Send Message
     
    Wow where is everyone? Its eerily quiet.
    11 Jun 2012, 11:54 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    Everyone is just lurking, waiting to see how low the latest dumper will push the share price. $.31 looks like, for now...

     

    My first impulse was to lurk at $.31, but I believe I will just wait and see how low it goes...
    11 Jun 2012, 11:57 AM Reply Like
  • FocalPoint Analytics
    , contributor
    Comments (5809) | Send Message
     
    I think its a good idea to sit on your hands at this point and watch it.
    11 Jun 2012, 12:10 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2481) | Send Message
     
    2 million more shares, on top of the existing big sellers, Quercus probably re-entering soon, the 35 cents people now underwater, overhang of another issuance in maybe 6 months, year-end selling if there's no big bounce...

     

    Jeez, what's not to love? ;^) Certainly hope that awesome news plugs all the leaks and then some, but a plausible path down to retest the all-time lows now exists, IMO, in the short-term. I've got dry powder, but I'll probably only use it if we do indeed head a lot lower.

     

    Looks like someone ran with JP's suggestion, placing a 200k bid at 30 cents.
    11 Jun 2012, 12:27 PM Reply Like
  • Bylo-
    , contributor
    Comments (388) | Send Message
     
    Mr Investor, I'm in your corner on this one. I'll be keeping my hand on my wallet and hanging in there like a rusty fish hook.
    11 Jun 2012, 03:19 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2481) | Send Message
     
    Bylo, plenty of dark clouds right now. We'll see if the low 30's holds...
    11 Jun 2012, 03:39 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1500) | Send Message
     
    I'm just sitting by the fire in the cave, contemplating my wall drawings, and waiting to see where this goes. Have some price points in mind for pulling the trigger - and hopefully will not shoot myself in the foot.
    11 Jun 2012, 03:48 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    You guys are relentless, and I'm proud of you.
    11 Jun 2012, 03:50 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (968) | Send Message
     
    material threat to stock fundamentals is a looming finance.

     

    i can't say things have gotten worse since the 35 cent offering, so for me anything under that # is a buy.

     

    i think the biggest thing deterring bottom fishing is the amount of AXPW shares we've already gobbled up.

     

    DRich first explored this possibility and really things are playing out as if he's right. i'd just like to remind everyone: any story that attracts a new brand of investor will quickly "fix" the stock.

     

    even with selling it is going to be a lot harder to push the 25 cent lows.
    11 Jun 2012, 05:01 PM Reply Like
  • Articula
    , contributor
    Comments (245) | Send Message
     
    Are we seeing a lot of larger blocks go on sale?
    11 Jun 2012, 12:14 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    Sales through noon were about 100,000 shares, above average, but not huge. I'll leave the analysis to the TA experts like HTL, but I believe we may see selling pressure like this for at least the next few months, if not longer, unless the price hits a sweet spot for enough buyers but also has ample sellers. Right now I believe there are fewer buyers than sellers (in terms of shares offered/bought).

     

    Questions unanswered:

     

    Will the intrusion of a pushy new large seller with no bottom goal mean that other large sellers who were content with $.35 will just step aside and allow him to sell away until exhausted? Or will we see a crowd jostling at the selling window, driving down prices even more?
    11 Jun 2012, 12:20 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I think you may be wildly overestimating the number of shares left in potentially weak hands. I know of 2 million and suspect there may be a couple million behind that, but the rest is owned by Axionistas.
    11 Jun 2012, 12:33 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    My assumptions include Blackrock, Quercus and Metro (maybe a few of the flipper remnants). If the "new guy" wants to sell 50k per day (which is just a WAG of course), and does so, he would be out in about 8 weeks (barring some large volume days where we might see an earlier departure). Hence my "next few months". I would prefer to see him out even faster than 8 weeks, and Blackrock and Quercus with him, but I figured that was just being greedy...

     

    So I don't believe we disagree as to the size of the pool, but maybe you are expecting it to clear quicker than 50k per day? I'd prefer that, frankly.
    11 Jun 2012, 12:49 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I'm hoping my backchannel inquiries get me to a point where I have a better feel for what's still out there. My spider sense tells me the number is small, which is why I started talking about a buyer's syndicate in the first place. After all, there's no sense in starting down a road that ends in a pier instead of a bridge.
    11 Jun 2012, 01:40 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2481) | Send Message
     
    That gives me a phrase idea--"pier financing", like what AONE did.

     

    And for those investors who do such deals, "pier to pier network".
    11 Jun 2012, 01:51 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3311) | Send Message
     
    More like "plank" financing... ;)
    11 Jun 2012, 01:54 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    MrI: I like it!

     

    HardToLove
    11 Jun 2012, 02:50 PM Reply Like
  • FocalPoint Analytics
    , contributor
    Comments (5809) | Send Message
     
    The .35 offering people being underwater could be significant.
    11 Jun 2012, 12:35 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    Today's gold star goes to Stefan Moroney who found this jewel

     

    The EV Black Knight Rides Again: John Petersen on Mortal Enemies

     

    http://bit.ly/LVgy3B
    11 Jun 2012, 12:41 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Black becomes you.

     

    Is that a hybrid horse?
    11 Jun 2012, 01:18 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3898) | Send Message
     
    JP > http://bit.ly/LVgy3B

     

    Indeed, gold Star to Stefan! I read the concluding paragraphs as copitulation on BEVs as an investment accompanied by declaration of personal intent to carry on the good fight and charge the next windmill sighted. That is, "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead".
    11 Jun 2012, 01:30 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    Well, that was 5 minutes of wasted time reading that I will never get back. I don't know which is worse. The poor arguments of the writer or the comments at the end where three people spend their time patting each other on the back while never really saying anything.
    11 Jun 2012, 01:32 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    It's a carbon-based horse!

     

    HardToLove
    11 Jun 2012, 02:51 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    It's not only a carbon based horse, it emits immense volumes of methane which is 10 times worse than CO2 from an AGW perspective.
    11 Jun 2012, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1910) | Send Message
     
    Entertaining -- if it wasn't so long and boring.

     

    I am still waiting to see one cogent argument *for* EV efficiency from commentators or this guy. It is classic -- wax poetic on all the impressive insight you have on the messenger while completely ignoring the message.
    11 Jun 2012, 03:04 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Sure it works on horses as well but doesn't leave much room for good knight. Given this fact I'll not even suggest the kick off of the flaming arrow risk assessment study!

     

    http://bit.ly/KhG85I
    11 Jun 2012, 03:08 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3898) | Send Message
     
    :-) jak, here is one (http://tinyurl.com/7jd...) on efficiency of PHEVs.
    11 Jun 2012, 03:24 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    With a little clever design work I'm sure the air bag would be far more comfy than a wood and leather saddle. Maybe an ability to adjust the front and back firmness independently for mace, sword and lance work?
    11 Jun 2012, 03:53 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2176) | Send Message
     
    Hilarious! JP, you must be so proud!

     

    One minor point the author makes (and I occasionally bring up) regards "electric drive" vs "electrochemical batteries". Electrochemical batteries, clearly, for many reasons, are unsuitable for the vast majority of automotive traction energy. No argument from me.

     

    However, electric drive, if not powered by electrochemical batteries, may make sense for automotive transportation in the future. Diesel-electric locomotives are common, and serial hybrids (pure electric drive, no ICE traction) may become effective. There are potentially other sources of on-board electric energy, such as turbines, external combustion engines, and (maybe) fuel cells.

     

    I hate letting the uneducated have easy, unnecessary targets.

     

    11 Jun 2012, 03:54 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    Lindsay Leveen's an e-buddy of mine and we share first copies all the time.
    11 Jun 2012, 03:55 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1910) | Send Message
     
    The cartoon is priceless and that is entertaining. I should have known the argument for EV efficiency would come from the governments incredible ability to make numbers speak a language other then math.
    11 Jun 2012, 03:55 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    My problem with all of these estimates is that it doesn't tell me what I "really" want to know. What I really want to know is how much does it cost me to drive the car/mile driven? Ignoring all the green house gas issues for a moment, that would be the real stat that is needed. Now granted I know that my electric costs from Duke Energy are probably different from someone in Ohio or California, but that could be adjusted for on the sticker for each City/State.
    So for example, my 2001 Honda Civic gets 30/mpg. Gas right now cost $3.40/gallon in Durham, NC. So $3.40/30= $0.12/mile rounding up. Seems to me if you know how much electricity it takes to charge a battery pack, how far the EV will go on that charge (with accessories ON), and what the price of electricity is in your city, you should be able to do the same calculation for an EV. Put that on the sticker and forget all these mpg equivalents that don't tell me what I really want to know...i.e. what it costs to drive the car.
    11 Jun 2012, 04:21 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    ... and while you're at it include a reasonable number for battery wear and tear – perhaps a 100,000 mile amortization of the estimated pack replacement cost.
    11 Jun 2012, 04:24 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    I'd just go with the current 369 USD monthly lease deal. Add a couple thousand for tax, title and license fees. Calculate it over 36 months and then look at your driving habits to figure cost/mile. Best way to do it as I'd not want to risk the residual value on this one.
    11 Jun 2012, 04:59 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    D-inv: Priceless. It confirms what I've expected, that the great efficiency is not to to electrification of the automobile, but from use of all the hot air contained in the lies from our government.

     

    HardToLove
    11 Jun 2012, 05:31 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2106) | Send Message
     
    >Rick: This is speculation, not engineering, but I wonder if a case could be made for a resonant superconductor loop under high traffic highways that would supply power by induction to the vehicles traveling over it. Not cheap on a per mile basis, but it should be durable and efficient. It might even be able to recover energy from braking and so forth. Put a small nuke plant every 30-50 miles or so.

     

    Removing the fuel load from the vehicle would allow it to be lighter. The concept might work best for large trucks.

     

    Everyone would pay a "toll" based on weight and distance traveled. Power for your AC, stereo and computer would be "at no extra charge" ;-)

     

    The vehicles would be "hands off" control, of course! Sleep while you travel.
    11 Jun 2012, 06:02 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (694) | Send Message
     
    But only travel where the loop goes.

     

    Not much fun in that!
    11 Jun 2012, 06:16 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Unfortunately they are turning off the nukes!

     

    http://bit.ly/Lwa4ZY
    11 Jun 2012, 06:34 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... It is hard to tell, but I think your EV fan club really doesn't like you very much. I really can't figure out why when they say things like;

     

    "But without the battery, Petersen’s argument against the EV vaporizes. Studies have shown that the cheapest method to implement electric vehicles would be to send power to them. New tuned wireless transmission technology may make this possible, unnoticed by the operator."

     

    which is an admission of the validity of your argument. If they paid any attention at all they'd discover your all about the battery, efficiency & conservation. I have also found it odd that so many rebuttals are comprised of things that might be technically feasible ... but, DON'T EXIST.

     

    Anyway, it's nice to see that you're successful in getting your name out there to a wider audience and into the ether. Keep being your EVIL self out there, bud, towards a rational future.
    11 Jun 2012, 07:41 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (967) | Send Message
     
    Well...that was a cogent, well thought out, open minded and unemotional article!...<sarcasm...
    Isn't anonymity a wonderful thing?

     

    "well thats another fine mess you got [yourself] into"
    http://bit.ly/KiM926
    11 Jun 2012, 08:42 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (694) | Send Message
     
    we have mastered technologies for a smart and sustainable city of the future

     

    I wonder; if it takes 10 years to bring a battery into production how long for the vehicles?

     

    Imagine the cost to install the dynamic charging option.
    New vehicles, all the roadworks, the ongoing maintenance, the cost of the energy plus of course the cost to set up the systems to control billing and user payment. Whew!
    On the other hand the static charging sounds like a perfect fit for the PbC!
    11 Jun 2012, 08:50 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    We've also come close to mastering limited space travel. That doesn't mean we are all going for a ride whenever we want. :)

     

    Well, Maybe I'm wrong. We can all go and just put it on the tab. That's a sustainable plan. Right?

     

    I have to start using sustainable more often. It shows I'm in up with the times!
    11 Jun 2012, 09:04 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (967) | Send Message
     
    Excuse my ignorance...I actually posted a comment but seeing the director/editor piling on, I guess critical questions won't be met with a welcome!
    I think they also stole "DNFTT" from here!

     

    "He (John posted by Anne) is more interested in polemic than a fruitful debate. I have never gotten any worthwile insights from his writings. He is nothing more than a troll begging for attention. Don't feed the troll."

     

    "Zachary Shahan, Zach is the director/editor of Cleantechnica.com
    nice additional critique.
    Like
    Reply
    Source: Clean Technica (http://s.tt/1e1MX)"
    11 Jun 2012, 09:43 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2235) | Send Message
     
    Send me some of that stuff you are smoking Siliconhillbilly. Or is it LSD tripping? Put a small nuke plant every 30 or 50 miles. Maybe in China where John Q Public has to get with the program or else. I know you as the master of rational thinking. That's why I figure you've found an exceptional supply of something! As long as you are tripping why not make the trucks Google driven by on-board computers. I only had one blue screen of death yesterday. I can here the 5PM news now.

     

    "Today on 1-95 in New Jersey a Google Drive UPS truck in the Super Conductor lane suffered loss all its raid redundant hard drives and veered over the barrier and into the on-coming super conductor lane resulting in mass casualties in the normal passenger car lanes. At least 100 are dead and hundreds injured.

     

    It is believed that the back-up L-ion power supply provided by ATWO exploded for unexplained reasons causing the total loss of the trucks control systems and communications."

     

    I presume you were actually being satirical. Where did you get the idea from? JP3?
    12 Jun 2012, 12:24 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2106) | Send Message
     
    What's the matter with youz guys? Aintcha got no VISION? Us smart people think about the FUTURE alla time. Jeez. Mumble mumble.

     

    Hey, the induction coupling trick charges up bus batteries in Italy, why not power cars in the USA?

     

    Bang, I read a lot of science fiction ;-)

     

    I also own AMSC. They make the SC wire that would be used. They really need an order for 5000 kilometers of it at $5/meter. Or better, 10,000 kilometers. Sigh.

     

    12 Jun 2012, 01:16 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2176) | Send Message
     
    I have seen wireless charging proposed, similar to these:

     

    http://bit.ly/MFSVi6
    http://engt.co/LPHLEy
    http://bit.ly/MFSUuo

     

    I haven't surfed through to see how it is going.
    12 Jun 2012, 04:52 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2118) | Send Message
     
    Rick,

     

    I find interesting in the third link you cite:

     

    "A similar system, for tramcars, was patented in 1894 by Nikola Tesla, US Patent 514972.[2] but it was not developed at the time."

     

    I think SiHiBi's idea about inductive power in the roadway for cars to be a bit impractical. But the idea would make more sense for a railway system.

     

    Can any of our engineers tell us more about how energy efficient inductive charging would really be? It seems to me that unless the coils were very closely and precisely aligned on a constant basis that there would be a lot of inherent energy losses in such a system. Hence a railway might make better use of inductive power.
    12 Jun 2012, 07:56 AM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (694) | Send Message
     
    If you like dynamic induction I am certain that you would also like Piezoelectric generators.

     

    See http://bit.ly/Ky2qwP

     

    Interesting idea but haven't heard anything from this company for over 6 months.
    12 Jun 2012, 08:29 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2106) | Send Message
     
    SM: Using a superconductor coil allows a resonant system to be very efficient on the transmission end. There are no lossy magnetic materials (iron or ferrites) to absorb energy. Any energy not coupled to the receiver ( large spacing or misalignment) is just stored in the transmitter coil and associated capacitor.

     

    The downside is that lots of current is required in the transmitter coil for a given magnetic field. Which is why superconducting wire is needed. Otherwise the high current would produce lots of heat and so wreck the efficiency.

     

    Megawatt range, high efficiency SC power transformers for 60Hz AC transmission use have been available for years. They just can't compete with aluminum wire, iron cores and oil cooling on a front end cost basis. See the AMSC web site for more info.

     

    12 Jun 2012, 01:39 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2095) | Send Message
     
    SHB,
    Just curious, are the super conductors made with silver?
    12 Jun 2012, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2118) | Send Message
     
    "They just can't compete with aluminum wire, iron cores and oil cooling on a front end cost basis."

     

    Aye, there's the rub.

     

    What might be the cost per mile of maintaining a superconducting coil?

     

    I understand that resonant induction can be very efficient, but the infrastructure required, even for retrofitting railroads, would be cost and resource prohibitive using our current superconducting technologies, when we consider JP's points about the resource constraints of the world economy.

     

    Even if you put the superconductors only in the vehicle coils, you are still going to be dealing with hysteresis, magnetic reluctance, and electrical resistance in the ground coils.

     

    It makes for a marvelous scifi story, but it remains in the realm of Clarke's magic for the foreseeable future.
    12 Jun 2012, 02:03 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (968) | Send Message
     
    stilldazed, a coating of silver is often applied to superconductors to reduce electrostatic repulsion.i haven't heard of using silver AS a super conductor though.

     

    here is a link that explains what metals are used and why silver isn't among them: http://bit.ly/LXSM4M
    12 Jun 2012, 02:07 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2095) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the link and reply.
    12 Jun 2012, 02:26 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2384) | Send Message
     
    A123's background and comments on FERC order 755:

     

    "The RTO deadline for FERC Order 755 Compliance Filings was April 30th, and the filed tariff revisions detail not just how, but when each regional electricity market will reward fast and accurate frequency regulation resources"

     

    Still a while to go all over the country :-(
    That type of uncertainty (even if it's justified in an effort to "get it right/righter" ) for decision makers with spreadsheets isn't good news to ESS providers who want to sell stuff now and "need a win."

     

    http://bit.ly/L093uD

     

    really Wonky:

     

    NYISO v. Beacon: http://bit.ly/MysfM7

     

    only kinda Wonky:
    MISO viewgraphs on Orders 719 and 745 (more demand response)
    http://bit.ly/L093uE

     

    Wish my eyes didn't glaze over quite so fast when I'm reading/digesting this stuff ...
    11 Jun 2012, 12:50 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    Looks like Beacon doesn't like the fact that the NYISO is using a formula where they save their users as much money as possible, by always going with the lowest bid on energy demands instead of using a pricing scale that would assure Beacon of a profit on anything they offer.
    11 Jun 2012, 01:42 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    A faster charge would change things immeasurably. But you'd still need some honkin infrastructure.

     

    "Hydro-Quebec reserachers close to super-fast electric vehicle charger"

     

    http://bit.ly/LmazqC
    11 Jun 2012, 01:28 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Sorry if this was posted already.

     

    "Battery fluid leak may be a factor in China car fire-BYD exec"

     

    http://reut.rs/LMH0hL
    11 Jun 2012, 01:41 PM Reply Like
  • Johhny rambo
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    Looks like the Wind farm business is about to implode !

     

    http://reut.rs/MywuHz

     

    just like they are pulling the tax credits on this market and they are looking at an 80% reduction in business, wouldn't it be interesting if the Fed pulled all battery grants, and let's see whose business model is actually real and sustainable
    11 Jun 2012, 01:49 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    That would kill the GE Chinese workers that make GE's wind turbines.

     

    Let's hope it doesn't affect the need for storage for variable generation from various green mandates placed on the utilities.

     

    HardToLove
    11 Jun 2012, 03:15 PM Reply Like
  • Articula
    , contributor
    Comments (245) | Send Message
     
    They should be taxing carbon instead of picking winners by subsidizing chosen energy policies. Let the market figure out who's best.

     

    My three step plan to success

     

    1) Tax Carbon
    2) Offset that loss to personal income by lowering income taxes
    3) For transportation heavy companies provide a 5 year window of tax breaks on Carbon with cheap loans to boot. Allow them to modernize fleet while driving true urgency in the alternative fuels market while the clock is ticking away.
    11 Jun 2012, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1229) | Send Message
     
    -Articula
    Thank you!
    11 Jun 2012, 02:02 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    "They should be taxing carbon instead of picking winners by subsidizing chosen energy policies. Let the market figure out who's best."

     

    Why don't you bring up politics and religion as well just to get some discussion going!

     

    Plain and simple. If CO2 ends up being as bad as they depict it's going to happen irrespective of all efforts short of population control. We know the one that's been used numerous times in the past by man. And then there are the natural events.
    11 Jun 2012, 02:03 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    There's a lot to be said for CO2 fatalism because it avoids all manner of arguments that can't reach consensus.

     

    We live in a world where 6 billion people want a small slice of the lifestyle 1 billion take for granted. Fuels that we choose not to burn because of CO2 fears will most absolutely be burned in other countries where the choice is heat and light or freezing in the dark.

     

    Since there's only one atmosphere, the arguments in favor of reducing the carbon footprint of the developed world don't hold much water. We need to consume less because we need to make more room at the global table.
    11 Jun 2012, 02:18 PM Reply Like
  • Bylo-
    , contributor
    Comments (388) | Send Message
     
    Exactly, iindelco, we see eye to eye!
    11 Jun 2012, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2106) | Send Message
     
    But John, look at the success of the Kyoto treaty!

     

    Wait.

     

    Never mind.
    11 Jun 2012, 06:05 PM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1824) | Send Message
     
    I am embarrassed to admit that it is only today that this point finally really hit home for me. Even though John and others have been harping on it for a while now.

     

    As long as oil remains the cheapest, most cost-effective energy source, every drop of it will be burned. By someone, somewhere.

     

    Even if the Western world switches entirely to wind, solar, geothermal and nuclear it will not reduce one ounce of oil that is burned.

     

    Because there are other countries like China, Russia, North Korea, etc who care only about the bottom line.

     

    And why shouldn't they? We built our current standard of living by burning oil. So it is the peak of hypocrisy for us to expect the developing world to remain at their much lower standard of living to clean up the swimming pool that we peed in.

     

    The only thing we can do is R&D to make it cheaper to use cleaner energy sources and to use conventional energy sources in the most efficient manner possible.

     

    And I may draw fire for this but we should sell the technology that we develop at a fair and reasonable price.

     

    Because it's our pool too that they're going to pee into without it.

     

    D
    11 Jun 2012, 09:41 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    What an assumption that WE develop it ?...Exactly what has the US developed recently?? That is the problem, we are overmatched by other countries developing more than us..imo

     

    map
    11 Jun 2012, 10:00 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    In fairness I think the things America has developed are awesome. Now if we could just get people to quit developing technology in the US and then sending the manufacturing elsewhere things could be better. Mercifully, energy costs are in many cases more important to manufacturers than labor costs and with massive unconventional gas and oil deposits the US may once again gain a true edge in that department.
    12 Jun 2012, 01:15 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    I can admit there are many motivations and we do need to adjust quickly but if CO2 is the real issue the outcome is inevitable short of smiley face reduction.

     

    http://bit.ly/LoK8zL

     

    I think we're pretty much on the same page. My point is the table will never be big enough irrespective of how many that are currently sitting there willingly give up their seats.
    11 Jun 2012, 02:33 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I've always had a dirty mind and believed that governments are not above deception that serves the *greater good* With my tin-foil hat firmly in place it's easy for me to imagine a meeting around a big table where consensus as that industrialized countries had to do something to bring the appetites of their citizens under control. From out of a hidden corner a nameless faceless policy wonk timidly says "Let's make CO2 a grave risk to the planet. Academics can prove anything with enough grant money." I'll now remove my tin-foil hat and get back to dinner.
    11 Jun 2012, 02:47 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    I would be the last to dispute your point re: the possibility of some back room world hand shake. The ongoing actions globally support such an "agreement".

     

    Will it work? If this conversation were to go on ad nauseam I'd order HTL's best TFH. Without the hat I'll leave it at population control or bust. Just my opinion.
    11 Jun 2012, 03:00 PM Reply Like
  • Renzo
    , contributor
    Comments (350) | Send Message
     
    Y'all are missing the He-Man-John-Petersen-H... over at cleantechnica.com (http://bit.ly/LVgy3B).

     

    John, apparently you are a Black Knight who holds "a contempt for the EV that is pervasive" and use "seemingly intelligent arguments based upon private definitions and an air of authority and disdain".
    11 Jun 2012, 06:28 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1910) | Send Message
     
    Renzo, there is a little discussion on this further up. It is interesting the hornets nest John has roused since writing a few articles on Tesla.

     

    JP, if you really want to get things going, your next article should be titled, "Elon Musk: A Barely Above Average Entrepreneur". That should get the torches and pitch forks at the foot of your castle.
    11 Jun 2012, 07:02 PM Reply Like
  • Renzo
    , contributor
    Comments (350) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, I didn't see that when I scanned through.
    11 Jun 2012, 07:12 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    If you want a title that will draw thunderbolts:

     

    "Ford Buys Tesla".

     

    Or perhaps:

     

    "Apple Buys Tesla".

     

    You would have 200 enraged comments before a single one noticed it was just an arguing point, and you had put "What if..." in a separate sentence in the title.

     

    LOL, on the automotive site I helped moderate, we had one discussion about government involvement in private enterprise which included loads of folks arguing many points, but particularly myself and a very able debater among the few truly devout socialists on the board. The discussion was lively but civil, other than a small group of his supporters... After a while I setup a logical trap involving some pretty serious logical flaws in their collective position, and then started pulling the ground out from under them, at which point they fell to arguing among themselves and contradicting each other. My opposite number finally stepped in and tried to get them straightened out, at which time they accused me (as a moderator) of essentially "cloning" him and then entering fake comments under his persona...

     

    His reaction was comical.

     

    If JP really was mean, imagine how easy it would be to construct such a trap for many of those on that side of the logical divide?
    11 Jun 2012, 08:23 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I think Musk is a master of self promotion so I wouldn't classify him as anywhere near average. That being said I don't think he can make chicken soup out of chicken droppings.
    12 Jun 2012, 01:18 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    It's a fun statistical game, but Cleantechnica reported in April that it was the top clean energy website in the country. http://bit.ly/N6Y1Gw If you follow the link in their article you learn that the 280 articles they published in April drew 137,708 unique visitors http://bit.ly/LPwS5t or about 500 readers each.

     

    According to the tracking statistics SA makes available to contributors, the five articles I published in April drew 48,480 page views, or about 10,000 readers each.

     

    I think I can live with their disdain.
    12 Jun 2012, 03:17 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Daimler starts production of Smart EV

     

    They are offering battery rental vs buying.

     

    23680 euros with and 18910 euros without = 4770 euro diff.

     

    http://bloom.bg/Mz0SkY

     

    17.6-Kwh battery pack from TSLA.

     

    http://bit.ly/Mz0SkZ

     

    4770/17.6= 271 euros/kwh = 338.75 USD/kwh

     

    1 euro=1.25 USD
    11 Jun 2012, 08:51 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Sorry, Update on the battery supplier. It's not Tesla. Looks like they changed horses.

     

    http://bit.ly/KlucQv
    12 Jun 2012, 12:32 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3311) | Send Message
     
    http://nyti.ms/MxDHYZ vKKLxc3x1w

     

    some more fuel for the bonfire... BLUF: AONE to reveal a new chemistry tomorrow that will save them... The title kind of says it all:

     

    "Shaky Battery Maker Claims a Breakthrough"
    11 Jun 2012, 11:04 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2106) | Send Message
     
    >481: Do you suppose the new AONE battery was the one being tested at GM when the test facility blew up?
    New super electrolyte? Like maybe with sulfur in it?

     

    Conspiracy theorists want to know!
    12 Jun 2012, 01:01 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Even if it's the next best thing since sliced bread A123 will not survive or fail at any level based on how wonderfull the tech. is.
    12 Jun 2012, 01:19 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    My favorite line in the entire article was

     

    "Potential automotive customers can test samples later this year, with production scheduled to begin in the first half of 2013."

     

    This is supposed to be a major advance that will justify the elimination of thermal control systems and extend battery life to a point where it never needs replacing,

     

    What do you think the odds are that an automaker who gets the first test samples later this year will be finished with validation testing and ready to buy in the first half of next year?
    12 Jun 2012, 01:57 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2118) | Send Message
     
    But iindelco,

     

    It has "nano" in the name!

     

    That makes it two generations better than sliced bread!
    12 Jun 2012, 08:24 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I'll clue you in on an industry secret that many don't understand. The prefix *nano* is scientific jargon for gawd-awful expensive.
    12 Jun 2012, 08:29 AM Reply Like
  • BugEYE
    , contributor
    Comments (193) | Send Message
     
    Spoiler alert:
    “That will eliminate weight, cost, technical complexity,” Vieau said in a phone interview before today’s announcement. “That doesn’t solve all the cost issues but it’s a step in the right direction.”
    The new lithium-ion cells can be produced at a cost similar to A123’s current nanophosphate chemistry, he said, without elaborating.
    12 Jun 2012, 08:44 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    A123 has never produced a battery that didn't cost $1,000 per kWh.

     

    OEM test protocols for commodity flooded LABs are 24 months.

     

    If there's a spoiler there I wouldn't look for a clear and present threat before the 2016 model year.
    12 Jun 2012, 08:50 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    WORLD CLASS COMMENT posted this morning.

     

    Mr. Peterson,

     

    Having worked as a product engineer for one of the Li battery companies sometimes discussed in these articles and post, I find your comments and analysis to be on target. What most of the EVer's don't seem to grasp is the opportunity cost of the raw materials you continually bring into the cost equation of the battery pack. One issue I would like to clarify is the perception that Li-ion batteries explode. Rather than explode they go into a thermal event when overheating due to an electrical short or safety malfunction. An analogy would be the difference between black powder (an explosive) and modern smokeless powder (a propellant). You are absolutely correct to question the safety of these large packs. Not only is the poisonous gas (along with the extreme heat) generated in the thermal event, it can also be generated in an apparently good pack and leak into the vehicles interior. I have seen the results of a 16kw pack forced into a thermal event and would not care to be within 50 yards of an event on the highway. In my opinion these batteries should be used only for electrical power distribution leveling. I am reluctant to post more due to the restrictions in my severance package. I am not a disgruntled former employee as I was planning on leaving the company when my current project was released to production but a downsizing came three months prior.

     

    I'll draw it to the attention of the Axionistas because it's so terribly relevant. I'll also ask that we don't discuss it outside this forum because I wouldn't want us to cause problems for the poster.
    12 Jun 2012, 05:30 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    For JP: A topic for your next article?

     

    Assuming the EV crowd that touts charging the beloved PEVs via solar panels and such are as dedicated as they seem to be sometimes and also believe in AGW, here's a link as a starting point.

     

    "Solar Cells Linked To Greenhouse Gas 12,000 Times Worse Than CO2"

     

    Assertion made in Green Illusions (June 2012, University of Nebraska Press), written by University of California – Berkeley visiting scholar Ozzie Zehner (A UCB visiting professor? That's really quite rich).

     

    http://bit.ly/LWYI00

     

    A very short article. Notable is "... 100 percent manufactured by humans, and survives 10,000 years once released ... and "... which are now measurably accumulating within the earth’s atmosphere according to the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). A NOAA study shows that atmospheric concentrations of SF6 have been rising exponentially".

     

    You'd think that such fervent backers of "all things green" would be aware of such.

     

    HardToLove
    12 Jun 2012, 06:25 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2176) | Send Message
     
    HTL, thanks for the link. I've ordered the book.
    12 Jun 2012, 07:23 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    The problem with stories like that is they rarely provide enough hard data about the amount of emissions per sq. meter of solar panel to even guess whether it's a plus or a minus.

     

    After all, even black knights are bound by the laws of chivalry that require we never take cheap shots when mercilessly gutting opponents with the sword of verifiable truth, bludgeoning with the mace of economics or simply poking with the rapier of wit.
    12 Jun 2012, 07:30 AM Reply Like
  • battman
    , contributor
    Comments (373) | Send Message
     
    When you think of it, it really is quite ingenious. By detryoing the atmosphere, it lets in more precious sunshine which increases the efficiency of the solar panels. It's a win win, except of course for all living things.
    Is it possible that solar is actually destroying the earth? EV cars are in fact emitting more pollutants? If I hear that sliced bread causes cancer, I'm checking out right now.
    12 Jun 2012, 08:10 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    With the NOAA reporting exponential increases of SF6, with long lifetimes in the atmosphere, with a UCB professor having authored a book on the subject, with the pollutants apparently emitted during manufacturing rather deployment and use of the panels, ...

     

    Seems there's enough to say "Hmmmm".

     

    HardToLove
    12 Jun 2012, 09:35 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    QUOTE OF THE DAY

     

    “There are few industries with more BS than the battery industry,” Musk said of battery makers, without elaborating. “It’s quite remarkable.”

     

    http://bloom.bg/Lhvbim

     

    This from the guy who's rolling out a 5,000 pound eco-car called the Model S Signature Edition.
    12 Jun 2012, 07:42 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1910) | Send Message
     
    You are right. He is above average...
    12 Jun 2012, 08:05 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/Ky2wEw
    12 Jun 2012, 08:30 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2176) | Send Message
     
    A truly delicious quote!

     

    Too bad the last sentence had been edited out: "The EV industry is proud to be one of those few."
    12 Jun 2012, 08:35 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (783) | Send Message
     
    Tom Konrad:
    http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    ...but only relatively expensive lithium-ion batteries would wholly displace lead-acid manufacturers

     

    Good day for all.
    Carlos.
    12 Jun 2012, 08:33 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2118) | Send Message
     
    Good article, but Konrad thinks Exide and Axion can play nice together again.
    12 Jun 2012, 08:41 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2492) | Send Message
     
    Sounds like we have a copy cat but on a larger scale.

     

    http://bit.ly/Ky9hGx
    12 Jun 2012, 09:18 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1500) | Send Message
     
    but we have "King in a String".
    12 Jun 2012, 09:27 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2384) | Send Message
     
    Also big enough that it takes Viridity Energy out of the picture?

     

    Note there's a Downloads tab with a little more info, e.g.,
    "Overview UBer™ Storage Blocks and Complementing Power Conversion Blocks"

     

    They offer both 320 VDC and 480 VDC versions.
    12 Jun 2012, 09:57 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2492) | Send Message
     
    A relatively new Ultrabattery paper to chew on -

     

    http://bit.ly/LrDs4R
    12 Jun 2012, 09:29 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    "... The UltraBattery hybrid lead acid chemistry
    Battery/UltraCapacitor energy storage device ...".

     

    Wouldn't that be stretching the truth a bit? I've not seen anything indicating capacitor-like behavior? Or maybe it's a matter of degree? Just not as "capacitor-like" as our favorite "Battery/UltraCapacitor energy storage device"?

     

    HardToLove
    12 Jun 2012, 10:05 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2176) | Send Message
     
    As I mentioned after the ESA conference, there are a LOT of players chasing the ISOs for regulation, peak shaving, etc. The interesting thing about this Ecoult project is that, at 3 MW, it is larger than the minimum testable size. A 40 foot container typically holds 0.5MW to 1MW of power; note the photo show three containers. My understanding is that the Axion solution requires six containers for 3 MW.
    12 Jun 2012, 10:13 AM Reply Like
  • battman
    , contributor
    Comments (373) | Send Message
     
    Rick, from the blurb
    "The Ecoult 3 MW UBer™ will be implemented both in a building and in a containerized format..."

     

    So what you see is not necessarily the whole thing.
    12 Jun 2012, 10:19 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    It's also important to remember that the UB will have a higher volumetric energy density than the PbC because they're not replacing half the active lead mass with carbon. From what I've been able to learn, their carbon seems to be a coating on the exterior of a normal lead-based negative electrode.
    12 Jun 2012, 10:25 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2492) | Send Message
     
    Have you drawn any conclusions about cost between the two? If I recall correctly, the UB is slightly cheaper?
    12 Jun 2012, 10:29 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2176) | Send Message
     
    battman, fair statement. My point was that this project is actually a small "utility-scale" implementation, and not just a utility scale demonstration.

     

    Does anybody have a guesstimate of PJM's potential demand? Is it 500 MW or 5 GW?
    12 Jun 2012, 10:41 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    For the record, those are 20' containers and it appears Ecoult has made this their standard... Also note that the PJM installation was for East Penn...
    12 Jun 2012, 11:05 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1500) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Seems like we've gone over this before, but within the Istambul presentation - slide 15 - would the "Advanced LAB: high surface area carbon" be something similar to the Ultrabattery?
    12 Jun 2012, 11:34 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I don't know, and I'd hate to venture a guess and be wrong.
    12 Jun 2012, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2384) | Send Message
     
    "Formed in 2007 by the CSIRO Australia, Ecoult was acquired by the US-based East Penn Manufacturing Company Inc. in 2010.

     

    East Penn (founded in 1946) manufactures the UltraBattery® Storage Blocks in their state-of-the-art manufacturing facility at Lyon Station, Pennsylvania with the upmost commitment to quality, safety and recyclability.

     

    Ecoult utilises its rights toward the UltraBattery® technology and intelligent energy management systems developed by the CSIRO, and its own development intellectual property to provide complete energy storage solutions and modules that are ready for custom integration.

     

    We accompany our customers through the entire lifecycle of the energy storage solution, from design and implementation of the solution to continuous monitoring of its performance and buy-back and recycling of the battery units at the end of a project."

     

    (from http://bit.ly/LGXPw1 )
    12 Jun 2012, 03:09 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2492) | Send Message
     
    I am just spitballing here b/c I don't have time to go back and look, but I seem to recall the report saying something about part of the demo being outside and part being inside ...

     

    Maybe 3 containers out and the other 3 inside?
    12 Jun 2012, 10:19 AM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (694) | Send Message
     
    A123 surges 25% on new battery news.

     

    Sigh!
    12 Jun 2012, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Saw that.

     

    I wonder if Kuraray Chemical Co. processes any type of nano coconut shells? Or just plain old coconuts from the Golden Nano Coconut Co. :))
    12 Jun 2012, 11:23 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2481) | Send Message
     
    Actually, 50% currently. Add it to the long list of AXPW troubles right now, and looks like the BK Trustee is selling away. How long until that 200k at 29 cents (penny lower than yesterday) is swallowed up?
    12 Jun 2012, 11:29 AM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (694) | Send Message
     
    It pains me deeply but have submitted buy orders significantly below $0.30.
    Whats the equivalent of Stop/Start for litter bearers?
    12 Jun 2012, 11:35 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    AB: Grapes and whips?
    12 Jun 2012, 11:38 AM Reply Like
  • FocalPoint Analytics
    , contributor
    Comments (5809) | Send Message
     
    There are some large sell orders going off at .31 and below. I would not try to pick a buy price under these conditions. I would wait until the dust settles.
    12 Jun 2012, 11:40 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    Ditto, FPA.

     

    The turtle lurks...
    12 Jun 2012, 11:46 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1910) | Send Message
     
    Bailemos con el Diablo.
    12 Jun 2012, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1500) | Send Message
     
    The neanderthal silently lurks, painfully aware that any movement may spook his prey that draws slowly nearer.
    12 Jun 2012, 11:58 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2481) | Send Message
     
    Matador approach. Let'm thru.

     

    So, do you guys think the competitive landscape is materially worsening? Or does PbC still have a big window until >=2020?
    12 Jun 2012, 11:59 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    I'm not so sure this is trustee induced. I think this is more Axionista controlled at the moment. It's just too much of a coincidence that right after the impending sales by the trustee is announced the impact of the sales are felt. This in my mind is more about people that read these concentrators making adjustments to their buy and sell decisions.
    12 Jun 2012, 12:01 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1910) | Send Message
     
    iindelco, Then you have to ask who is doing the buying? If Axionista's are attempting to do some scalping at .3x in hopes of snagging a few extra shares at .2x for a pittance gain then they may be in for a little more buying competition than what they bargained for.
    12 Jun 2012, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    jakurtz, True but volatility brings opportunity and many know this. Thus you see some putting in orders at what were recently considered extremes. And remember, as it's discussed here all the time, just having more Axionista's holding back and moving to more distant price points changes the dynamics in and of itself. This group after all is the 500 pound gorilla near the pay window. When it moves people get squeezed into the jambs.

     

    Understand that I'm not saying this is a bad thing. It just is. Greed and fear rule.
    12 Jun 2012, 12:18 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Kind of a double edged sword on this one. As it is with such measures. (Gotta use sword and keep the medieval thing going.)

     

    "Websites to be forced to identify trolls under new measures"

     

    http://bit.ly/LhQnER

     

    Don't worry occasional Axion trolls. It's only Britain so far.
    12 Jun 2012, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1500) | Send Message
     
    I'm not sure that being "outed" would be a deterrent based on my reading today in the IHT about being Sweden's twitterer of the day..

     

    http://nyti.ms/LRvyiI

     

    At least Jack Werner is not embarrassed about promoting his solitary vice as one of his favorite leisure activities and is now known publicly as "The M*********** Swede." I wonder if he has always aspired to that title? Maybe he's added it to his resume as a list of accomplishments? Maybe I'm just too old fashioned? Maybe it makes one somehow more attractive to have that title? Maybe he's a troll and was too ashamed to admit it, and so had to come up with something else?
    12 Jun 2012, 05:31 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    metro, Do you ever flick through TV channels in your cave? I suspect this Swede is more common than we'd hope. In the US he'd have at least one TV show by now and he'd be telling people who they should vote for. And many would listen!
    12 Jun 2012, 05:55 PM Reply Like
  • Articula
    , contributor
    Comments (245) | Send Message
     
    Wow that is frustrating, 50% on news of a technology break thru. We have business in the door by NS and we decline. Argh lol!
    12 Jun 2012, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    Our current share price action is all about the MegaC trustee (not related to the vitamin people) and his 2m shares.
    12 Jun 2012, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2106) | Send Message
     
    Maybe if we put the words "Li" and "EV" into the Axion name somehow?

     

    But no, they would just have to be removed in a few years as the EV and Li-Ion mirage becomes apparent.
    12 Jun 2012, 02:16 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2481) | Send Message
     
    A couple concentrators ago I suggested that the company add whatever is hot, to its name. This month it could be, "Axion U.S. Dividend Company." Just keep changing it to attract and keep the hot money.
    12 Jun 2012, 02:22 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3311) | Send Message
     
    We need to scan the periodic table for a cool-sounding but otherwise meaningless element to add (in utterly insignificant but verifiable amounts) to the magic PbC cake batter.... Beryllium? Boron? It doesn't really matter, just something gee-whiz and uber slick sounding. What a bummer (and coincidence) that lithium is already taken....
    12 Jun 2012, 02:32 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I've been considering an article congratulating them on the enhancement because the micro-hybrid market is growing so quickly the OEMs need everything they can lay their hands on, even if it's a lithium-ion chemistry that's constrained to a million cars a year by A123's factory capacity and battery qualification is a multi year process.
    12 Jun 2012, 02:40 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Please no beryllium.

     

    How about Americium? Then we can wrap ourselves in little US flag stickers for the US market.

     

    It was in there a picosecond ago. I swear it!

     

    BTW, You can eliminate BS from the list. It's already heavily utilized.
    12 Jun 2012, 02:43 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2095) | Send Message
     
    86,
    AGM is acid glass mat if I remember correctly. Is the glass made of silicon? Might ring a bell with computer techies. ;-)
    12 Jun 2012, 02:54 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    AGM is "absorbed glass mat." It's a tightly compressed fiberglass pad about the thickness of a piece of notebook cardboard that swells when you add the electrolyte in the final assembly stage. The swelling of the mat keeps compression across the entire structure and makes AGM very tolerant of high-G and other forces.
    12 Jun 2012, 02:59 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2095) | Send Message
     
    JP,
    Thanks for the correction, now you know why I'm Stilldazed (and confused). Can't seem to remember the acronyms (or how to work algebra problems).
    12 Jun 2012, 03:04 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    You obviously didn't read the new patent that came out the other day. The current design uses a low density grafoil sheeting that's impregnated with wax and rosin to protect the current collector.

     

    According to the patent, work is ongoing to replace the grafoil with either a sputtered titanium suboxide or an amorphic diamond coating on the current collector, which would really simplify the electrode assembly while improving performance and slashing costs at the same time.

     

    Since the carbon nanotech IPO I did for Howard Schmidt in 1992 was originally named SI Diamond Technology, there's good reason to think amorphic diamond coating might work very well.
    12 Jun 2012, 03:11 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1500) | Send Message
     
    One that probably wouldn't work is "sputtered titanium suboxide" per John's below post. "Sputtered", describing something in a start/stop system, doesn't bring up positive images.
    12 Jun 2012, 03:34 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    I couldn't put the patent reference in the post below so I'll go ahead and stick it in now.

     

    http://bit.ly/KGvxma

     

    Sputtered lithium-suboxide is the material that Atraverda uses to protect the Ebonex layers in its bi-polar lead acid batteries.

     

    The process is actually pretty straightforward. It's the way they get the metal foil coatings on the inside of potato chip bags.

     

    I personally think diamond coated current collectors sound cooler, but we'll just have to see which is better and cheaper.

     

    If either of those coatings work, the bill of materials for a PbC will be cheaper than the bill of materials for an AGM battery.

     

    Learning curve economies are wonderful things.
    12 Jun 2012, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3311) | Send Message
     
    Couldn't we go with "sintered"? I'm sure nobody would know the difference...
    12 Jun 2012, 03:44 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    I got to tour a sputtering process in Germany for the reflective backing in headlight assemblies. Pretty neat operation. It was done in a vacuum chamber and it was a little messy.
    12 Jun 2012, 03:48 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2176) | Send Message
     
    "Amorphous diamond" could work, although not technically true; diamond is supposed to be cubic, not amorphous. Diamond has some special electric properties that may make it useful in a battery. I use to make synthetic amorphous diamond in a vacuum sputtering chamber years ago.

     

    Definitely do not want to use beryllium; it's highly toxic in ppb range.

     

    Americium is radioactive and very tightly controlled; it is considered a prime ingredient for improvised dirty bombs, among other nasties. It is also used in smoke detectors.
    12 Jun 2012, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    Yeah, but if you think about the advantages of getting a good conductive coating on the current collector which could then be put into direct contact with the carbon electrodes and electrolyte the internal resistance gains alone would be impressive. The problem of course is getting to a coating consistent enough to fill all voids where the sulfuric acid could get to the current collector.
    12 Jun 2012, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Rick, Yes re: beryllium , I made process changes in a large scale resistance welding operation to remove all the class 3 electrodes. I was appalled to see people using any number of machining operations in uncontrolled environments to reuse them when necessary. At least I got them out of the process for the final 15+ years they ran the operation. They unfortunately were not mature enough to handle them properly and the life of the replacements was not horrible. Process control was equivalent.
    12 Jun 2012, 04:40 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    Oh but John, didn't you read? There is a prominent German auto manufacture that is going to be using their new battery starting in 2013! Obviously they don't need to bother testing them for more than a few months? Oh, wait. Isn't that why they had to recall $50 million worth of batteries this year? Because they didn't bother to QC test them before they started selling them?
    12 Jun 2012, 04:50 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1500) | Send Message
     
    Although I saw jveal's patent link that was much appreciated and sparked some comments, I did not realize the significance of it. In order to get the patent, would this mean that Axion has produced a prototype of the new negative electrode, or it just exists in theory?

     

    Being really good and being low cost is a good combination. I am guessing this technology won't be ready for Q1 2013 production (this is sarcasm), but from the information provided in the patent, curious if the processes described appear to be large technological manufacturing hurdles, or if they are processes already performed for other applications?
    12 Jun 2012, 04:52 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    Yeah, I could see how it would be a benefit. But now you're looking at capital outlays and new validation cycles and.....

     

    Well this one is, as my German colleagues always used to say, "For the future". It's good stuff but we have more immediate needs.

     

    But it could make for a good PR and as we saw with AONE there is value in that.

     

    Black diamond brought to you by the "Black Knight". Breaking down the resistance to bring you the power to take advantage of every stop! Never put up with old Almost Got Moving (AGM) again!

     

    Or maybe? "Payback-When it matters". Never say life's too short again! (This message is not government approved!)

     

    Oh well. Time to settle in for the evening and get ready to get kicked again in the morning.
    12 Jun 2012, 05:02 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2106) | Send Message
     
    "Diamond like" thin film coatings on carbon have been used for at least 25 years. I actually saw one on a carbon prosthetic heart valve. Nifty stuff. Kinda iridescent looking. It was a vacuum process, IIRC.

     

    Of course, it didn't have to withstand medium strength sulfuric acid. It just had to be "antibody neutral".
    12 Jun 2012, 05:22 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    It means that it exists in theory with adequate detail to put a fence around the concept. It could exist by the time the patent is approved or at any time for that matter.
    12 Jun 2012, 05:24 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1500) | Send Message
     
    "Yeah, I could see how it would be a benefit. But now you're looking at capital outlays and new validation cycles and....."

     

    Agree, but my thought is that it could expand the window of opportunity for PbC. One of my nagging little questions has been how can the PbC technology be improved to compete with improvements in other chemistries - or is this only an investment for a couple years. Am happy - although would be happier if share price were going the other way - to know that Axion is researching the next generation of PbC.
    12 Jun 2012, 06:32 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3311) | Send Message
     
    We've all talked a lot about how, the PbC, being such a new technology class, is far from mature and thus has great potential for improvements going forward... This would seem to be some big initial steps on that path... imagine the next generation PbC being even incrementally 10% better and 10% cheaper... it would make an already compelling product even more so. Many other chemistries are much further out on the tails of their maturity curves, while we, why we're just getting warmed up... ;)
    12 Jun 2012, 06:41 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    All, I don't dispute your points and we have talked before about how Axion has opportunities for improvement given it's technology youth.

     

    That being said we need more than just stockholders to show some more cards here in support of the need for the technology. We understand it but the market isn't showing enough signs of what we believe it could use. It takes money to manufacture and do research. The capital markets are obviously looking for more signs of pull vs push on this thing.
    12 Jun 2012, 07:57 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    Rare earths. To counteract "hopium", how about "holmium"? Axion could also purchase a defunct Soviet processing plant with an exhausted mine where they discover an amazing new supply of their new secret ingredient...

     

    Ah, but that would be telling numerous fibs, of course. Better to leave that for the other guys...
    12 Jun 2012, 08:25 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... Now you've come full circle from Gee Whiz to Bangwhiz and his basic complaint. No love from venture capital. OEM testing & demonstrations ain't going to pay the bills. Another capital raise from these levels will push the company to book value or less. This the world Axion lives in.

     

    In Sales We Trust ...
    12 Jun 2012, 08:31 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    DRich, At some point you have to get some level of commitment from end users. They have this from NS. Alas later than we had hoped. Even if automotive were to jump they would be at least a year out and probably more. Utilities, they are just as slow as automotive if not more so and we just started last year. So if someone's interested they better say something because it's hard to fund assembly lines, sintering operations and sputtering research et al with .2x USD shares.

     

    PS - I've always enjoyed the "Gee Whiz" but I've also launched many many manufacturing areas and I know what it costs to launch them. The cost of the lines is generally less than half the cost.
    12 Jun 2012, 08:49 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2492) | Send Message
     
    Appreciate the reality check.
    12 Jun 2012, 09:43 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (968) | Send Message
     
    AXPW's future will hinge on the capital raise. thankfully volume has kept the stock price from getting shredded, but it's only been one day.

     

    the stock remains broken and is getting worse. if sales or a partnership emerge that makes funding a non issue then it doesn't matter. until then funding > all

     

    the whole bottom fishing thing is getting a bit crazy when a drop in share price affects a companies ability to raise capital.
    12 Jun 2012, 10:34 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8815) | Send Message
     
    The 2 million share sale is not that big a deal. For me it's an opportunity for those wishing to get another piece at a fair price (Nobody can complain about the last share issuance any more). As I already indicated I think it also shows the impact of this group because I find it highly improbable that the announcement by John perfectly correlated with the short term pressure of the 2 million shares coming into the market. Bottom fishers extraordinaire! With it aligning with Europe's problems it helps the acquirers.

     

    Where the stock goes next really depends on what they can share over the next few months. There's little doubt about the need for funds and the sooner the better. But that need would come with some customer commitment.
    12 Jun 2012, 11:06 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... I agree. "some customer commitment" would be nice. It would be nicer if this bottom fishing extravaganza would come to an end.
    12 Jun 2012, 11:25 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Well guys you have more guts than i do. All i see is Blackrock selling, a dead guys estate selling, Nothing from NS. So i took a small hit as i was a newbie and decided to go in another direction.

     

    Good luck to all who can weather this storm. Personally i don't have the stomach for this one. To me too many things going the wrong way.

     

    Adios

     

    Map
    12 Jun 2012, 11:52 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    I'm surprised the volume has ramped this high this fast without the price falling further. Support at $.30 for these volumes is strong.

     

    As for A123, it reminds me of when MCP popped out with their out of the blue discovery of a hitherto unknown rich heavy rare earth deposit near their Mountain Pass Mine... And the news came JUST when they might otherwise have seen some really harsh treatment at the hands of the market.

     

    Sadly, the announcement had no legs, and the company never followed up the announcement with any substance (to this day).

     

    I am no battery expert, but this looks like a calculated effort to save themselves by loose talk about immature research. The fact that the altenergy sector is extremely receptive to this sort of behavior for pc reasons - and they are likely to receive soft glove treatment from the media - means that this could be very supportive, short term, for their stock.

     

    How long will the pop externd without solid results to support it?

     

    Doubtful.

     

    Anyone holding this one would do well to stage a strategic retreat while the getting is good, imo.
    12 Jun 2012, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (694) | Send Message
     
    Shorts?

     

    Is A123 shortable? If so it sounds like a golden moment.
    12 Jun 2012, 12:10 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    Current price action might well have a lot to do with shorts covering suddenly untenable positions...

     

    Further out? Could be...
    12 Jun 2012, 12:15 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29499) | Send Message
     
    It would have been a fun short at $20 but I don't know that I'd take the risk to short A123 now. Troubled companies can limp along hand to mouth for a very long time.
    12 Jun 2012, 12:18 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2481) | Send Message
     
    I would guess that a lot of today's pop is short covering, actually.

     

    You might want to consider the puts, also. Probably a lot of volatility in today's price, though.
    12 Jun 2012, 12:23 PM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (783) | Send Message
     
    H.T. Love:
    Bought & Sold 187,000 to 0.3060 in one transaction.
    Good day.
    Carlos.
    12 Jun 2012, 12:46 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17299) | Send Message
     
    Congratulations!

     

    HardToLove
    12 Jun 2012, 01:16 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9605) | Send Message
     
    Anyone have an extra can of Silly String?

     

    I'm trying to figure out how to string together Brian Greene's "The Elegant Universe," about the String Theory, with Metro's "String Is King" with the fact that I am going to the new nearby casino today to hopefully string together a winning streak, to the looong string of Axion orders I have filled from 60 cents to $1.20, back to 60 cents, down to 28 cents and then back to ~ 40 cents, and now here I am, longing to call my broker and clothes pin another "if I get'em, I get'em" order on the line for more shares well below 30 cents.

     

    The past: $12,000 for 10,000 shares.

     

    The coming present: $3,000 for 10,000 shares.

     

    My "maybe" future? Adding another 25,000 shares for $6,250 (which by all rights and fairness, I should be paying about $37,500).

     

    Is this the past, giving me a present day present for my future?

     

    Here's a little 50's Doo Whop song titled "Come On Down!"

     

    http://bit.ly/KyIDxl
    12 Jun 2012, 01:01 PM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (426) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » This way to a new concentrator ----->

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    12 Jun 2012, 02:00 PM Reply Like
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