Seeking Alpha

Axion Power Host's  Instablog

Axion Power Host
Send Message
Trying to learn stuff
  • Axion Power Concentrator 113: June 12, 2012: Bottom Feeders Alert 188 comments
    Jun 12, 2012 1:59 PM | about stocks: AXPW

    These instablogs and the people who maintain them have no relationship whatsoever to Axion Power International. To our direct knowledge no person with a current relationship to Axion Power International other than being a shareholder participates in these instablogs.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Bottom Feeder's Alert: provided by JP

    I've recently learned that 2 million shares that were held by the Mega-C Shareholders Trust are being turned over to the Bankruptcy Trustee.

    The Court Order requiring the turnover of the shares was signed on June 1st. -

    dl.dropbox.com/u/26257506/6.1.12%20Turno...

    I expect the Bankruptcy Trustee to start selling as soon as the shares are deposited to his account.

    I don't expect him to be gentle and there will probably be some pushing and shoving around the pay window until the shares are sold.

    I will not be surprised if the Bankruptcy Trustee's selling puts unexpected downward pressure on the stock price. Since the order requires the shares to be delivered to the Bankruptcy Trustee's brokerage account, I do not expect the sales to show up in HTL's short tracking data.

    I have not heard back from my contacts who are trying to find out how many shares remain in the hands of other willing sellers, but I expect the Bankruptcy Trustee to create a great short-term opportunity for bottom feeders who understand where the shares are coming from and why.

    It's not often that individuals get advance notice of an opportunity to buy stock in a bankruptcy sale. Happy hunting.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Axion Power's Weighted Moving Average Price and Volume:

    (updated June 10th)

    (click to enlarge)

    Concentrator Comments: 20,000 comments surpassed on June 1st!

    (updated June 10th)

    (click to enlarge)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    LINKS to valuable Axion Power Research and websites:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites created by APC commentator Bangwhiz it is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one; including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Axion Power Website, the first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

    Axion Power Chart Tracking, HTL tracks AXPW's intra-day charting.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    WARNING: This is a troll free zone. We reserve the right to eliminate posts, or posters that are disruptive.

    Enjoy!

    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

Back To Axion Power Host's Instablog HomePage »

Instablogs are blogs which are instantly set up and networked within the Seeking Alpha community. Instablog posts are not selected, edited or screened by Seeking Alpha editors, in contrast to contributors' articles.

Comments (188)
Track new comments
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    This is slightly OT but fun: http://bit.ly/Lknk1P

     

    Notice that: "Primary power comes from AGM batteries with 300 amp hours, and a 200-watt solar system keeps them charged. A Cummins generator runs more power-heavy equipment like the air conditioner and microwave. "

     

    The vehicle starts at $163K.... but doesn't use Li-ion and instead favors deep-cycle AGM. A possible place for PbC, which could deliver higher power (ie the HVAC and microwave) and thus cycle the generator less frequently? Just fun to think about... but nevertheless implications for the wider RV and Sailboat/Marine spaces....
    12 Jun 2012, 02:24 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    I like everything but the cost! also, I am thinking those 200w of solar have a heck of a time keeping up with those 300 amp hours worth of battery...
    12 Jun 2012, 04:45 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2057) | Send Message
     
    The solar panels are basically for keeping the batteries charged when parked; all the bulk charging will be done via the generator or alternator. To fully recharge the batteries would take about 36 midday sunlit hours, or six calendar days, depending on weather, latitude, etc.
    13 Jun 2012, 01:10 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    "Dan Borgasano, A123's Public Relations Manager, stated that the new technology allows A123's lithium-ion batteries to operate in lower temperatures. Previously, lead acid was the only vehicle battery chemical that could perform in a low temperature environment (I think Altair would disagree with this statement).
    Borgasano stated that the batteries have an opportunity to serve the micro-hybrid market, while noting that automobile manufacturers are expected to produce 39 million micro-hybrids annually by 2017. A micro hybrids is a type of hybrid vehicle that shut offs when the vehicle is stopped.
    Borgasano stated that the new batteries will be used by a prominent German automaker in the future, although he declined to name the company specifically.
    The new batteries have an up-front cost that is around $250 more expensive than competing advanced lead acid batteries. However, the new batteries have a break-even point of about 3 years. A123 Systems' new batteries are lighter weight, use less fuel and last longer than current advanced lead acid batteries. The company's new batteries last around 7 years, in comparison to the 18-24 month life cycle for current advanced lead acid batteries."

     

    Interesting that they can already quote what the batteries are going to cost when they haven't even started to make them in mass production yet. And the "unnamed" prominent German automaker quote is great too.
    "Really, they are going to be using our batteries in the future. We just can't say who they are, when in the future they will be using them or for what, but trust us..."
    Guess this should make their $50 million in convertible debt easier to finance in the short term. Maybe they can also get all the shareholders who were going to sue them, to just sell their stocks now while the price is up.
    I wonder how many of the people buying those 28 million shares today were cashing in their Facebook stock to do so?
    12 Jun 2012, 02:45 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1887) | Send Message
     
    It would seem JCI would like access to a cheaper competing chemistry with a 7 year life span in S-S.
    12 Jun 2012, 06:01 PM Reply Like
  • anthlj
    , contributor
    Comments (230) | Send Message
     
    I'm not sure Axionistas are in a position to critique the wisdom of other's investments just about now. I know I feel like crawling under the nearest rock and not emerging for a couple of years.
    12 Jun 2012, 02:57 PM Reply Like
  • Articula
    , contributor
    Comments (237) | Send Message
     
    For the moment I have to agree Ant. Hopefully, in a few years we can look back and laugh.
    12 Jun 2012, 03:15 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    Anthlj,
    Fair enough. But I have to wonder who is buying those 29 million shares on news of something that is supposed to happen next year at the earliest? Certainly not the previous A123 investors who are already underwater for the last five years. I guess the good news is that, if it's true, and they can get it to market and sell it, it might mean that another US energy company doesn't go belly up and cost a lot of people their jobs. I'm very much in favor of that. It also shows, I think, that there are a "lot" of people watching the energy industry and they are ready to buy in if they see something that they think is promising. If Axion can get a concrete design win with a major auto OEM, or start getting real orders for PowerCubes or rail, then I think there will be investors out there who will finally be ready to buy into the company and help it take off from here.
    As for the stock price, I'm not crazy about it either. But it's still better than where it was in January.
    12 Jun 2012, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    "No matter how crowded the room, there is always a place for humility..."
    12 Jun 2012, 03:02 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Sorry if this was posted I missed it.

     

    EV Myths And Realities, Part 1: The Battery Crisis

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    12 Jun 2012, 03:37 PM Reply Like
  • Johhny rambo
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    Clearly with 34m in volume AONE is experiencing a lot of Institutional buying.
    Just shows what can happen when you announce good news, and you have a major following - up 50% on the day, even with all the bad news of late from the AONE camp, and the fact they have been kept afloat by dodgy grants.

     

    I ask myself the question what would have happened to Axion with a similar type announcement ? - up 50% to 45c ? Not really what we are looking for I think.

     

    As many of you have said here before, in order for our stock to get into the multiple dollar range, we need a real orders in the range of $50m plus, on a variety of NS,BMW,Storage platforms.

     

    here's hoping
    12 Jun 2012, 04:45 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    Stay tuned!
    It will be most interesting to see where A123 trades a year from now.
    12 Jun 2012, 04:57 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    Useful to remember that for all them enthusiastic A123 buyers here, an equal number of sellers just sold for the same low price...
    12 Jun 2012, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • tonys23
    , contributor
    Comments (92) | Send Message
     
    Clearly, the market today disliked AXPW nearly as much as it liked AONE. Indeed, depressing. Of course, maybe THEIR major German automaker is Mercedes ...
    12 Jun 2012, 05:26 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    I doubt it's Mercedes as they have a JV to make their own batteries. Maybe VW or as a replacement for the batteries they already sell to BMW.

     

    http://aol.it/wmKB5R

     

    Plus BMW will have an EV coming out in the future.

     

    http://onforb.es/L3m6eA
    12 Jun 2012, 05:44 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Tonys23: "Clearly, the market today disliked AXPW nearly as much as it liked AONE"

     

    Did you miss the part about the bankruptcy trustee having 2M shares to dump? This has to do with bottom-feeders like us being ready to help them minimize their gain at our expense.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    12 Jun 2012, 06:04 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    IINDelco,
    Isn't it likely that the German automaker is Audi? If I remember correctly, Audi had an abstract in the Li-ion battery lovefest that is coming up where they stated that they would be using Li-ion batteries for their 2013 model. So my question would be, if A123 was already supplying the batteries for Audi, and now they are claiming that the German automaker will be using their new batteries instead, are they just replacing the ones they were already planning to sell them with their new battery? And if so, has Audi already been testing pre-production demos of the new battery in their autos?
    13 Jun 2012, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • BugEYE
    , contributor
    Comments (189) | Send Message
     
    Global Investment in Renewable Energy Powers to Record $257 Billion
    http://bit.ly/OusMSI

     

    ScienceDaily (June 11, 2012) — Solar generation surged past wind power to become the renewable energy technology of choice for global investors in 2011.
    12 Jun 2012, 06:17 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    (AXPW): EOD
    # Trds: 65, MinTrSz: 240, MaxTrSz: 100000, Vol 588233, AvTrSz: 9050
    Min. Pr: 0.3052, Max Pr: 0.3250, VW Avg. Trade Pr: 0.3127
    # Buys, Shares: 25 163278, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.3145
    # Sells, Shares: 40 424955, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.3120
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 1:2.60, DlyShts 136133, 23.1%

     

    With this volume, it won't take long to gobble up 2M shares, even if it's 2:1.

     

    Note that the daily short sale percentage is not going ballistic on us at 23.1%. The 10, 25 and 50-day averages are currently 26.20%, 24.21%, 19.23% respectively. With 72% of trades classified as "sells", this low short sales percentage suggests we apparently have some shares at the market-maker.

     

    Has the broker (or his market-maker) already bought them at some low price? Since there's apparently no effort to manage the price to maximize gain, I suspect so.

     

    So the question becomes "How Low Can You Go?".

     

    I'm waiting, but not just for that reason.

     

    HardToLove
    12 Jun 2012, 06:23 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    "So the question becomes "How Low Can You Go?"."

     

    Metro be nimble. Metro be quick. Metro go under limbo stick:. but if have to will jump in the line and rock the body in time - shake senora.

     

    These songs all go well with rosé - I'm being forced to drink pale French rosé for professional purposes. Nothing quite like it on a nice summer eve.
    12 Jun 2012, 07:06 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    "WHO: Diesel exhaust fumes cancer-causing"

     

    http://bit.ly/L4Nr1p

     

    Battery powered yard locomotives anyone?
    12 Jun 2012, 08:10 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    My problem with the article is two fold. One, they are lumping together heavy diesel that is used in industry with low sulfur diesel that is used for autos. Also, I've seen the research they are basing their recommendations on and it is based on studies of coal miners who are exposed to diesel fumes in mine shafts, where the concentration of fumes is much higher. I'm not disputing that if you put enough diesel fumes into your lungs that it can lead to cancer, but I put it up there with the arguments against saccharine. Sure you can kill a rat with it, but at what point do we compare testable limits to real world conditions. I'm all in favor of trying to lower limits on all this stuff as much as possible, but there has to be a reasonable offset between what is needed and what is overkill. IMHO.
    13 Jun 2012, 09:45 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Agreed, LabTech. Even the purest water can kill in sufficient quantity.
    13 Jun 2012, 09:54 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Living will kill ya.

     

    Unfortunately people are not allowed to fully assess what they have for resources with the means to prioritize things that have the largest impact. Government is doing this and well, you can bet the priorities are not aligned well with getting the biggest bang for the buck. Well not for you and I anyway.
    13 Jun 2012, 10:06 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2057) | Send Message
     
    Labtech, I thought all US diesel had to be low sulfur nowadays. Am I misinformed?
    13 Jun 2012, 01:13 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Rick, I thought so as well. Other than bunker oil for seafaring ships.

     

    Can't imagine how you'd distribute it any other way as well. Not so sure about refining as it's not something I understand well.
    13 Jun 2012, 01:18 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    Rick,
    You may be correct. It was my understanding that the diesel that was used in the generators at the mines where the study was done was the older, higher sulfur stuff, but regulations may have changed since then. Remember that the study was done on miners who had been exposed to diesel fumes for decades, long before we started the switch to the diesel used for autos today.
    I was also under the impression that heavy construction equipment was still allowed to use the higher sulfur diesel, but that may have changed as well. If so, I humbly stand corrected, and would quite frankly be happy that the US is now making everyone use the low sulfur diesel.
    13 Jun 2012, 01:29 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    FYI, road use is now ULSD as LSD was phased out 4-5 years ago...
    13 Jun 2012, 02:53 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Tim.

     

    I seem to recall when it was proposed the refining industry put in a good fight to kill the request.
    13 Jun 2012, 03:19 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Axion has to pay to figure out how to coat their electrodes and the feds fund the lithium guys.

     

    "PolyPlus: The battery maker is getting nearly $9 million to complete its work on encapsulating the lithium anode and enter mass production..."

     

    "PolyPlus plans to work with Corning and Johnson Controls on the project."

     

    Ughh

     

    http://bit.ly/LAS9Bv
    12 Jun 2012, 08:23 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2422) | Send Message
     
    "The money is going to academic research institutions and quite a few large companies such as General Motors"

     

    Where was that money with the application with GM last year?
    12 Jun 2012, 08:55 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    It was noted that there was an GM/Axion application for funding based on poster brishwain doing a freedom of information act request. I do not think that the request was funded. No lithium in the polypropylene case.

     

    John got a copy of the document.

     

    This funding is for making door panels in vehicles at GM/Delphi. More government bailout funds on the side. Too big to recognize the failure (Not to fail).
    12 Jun 2012, 09:29 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2422) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, iindelco - I know, it just gets under my skin that this type of funding can get done this year with GM, but wasn't available last year.
    12 Jun 2012, 09:41 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Local technology outfit develops supercapacitors for idle-stop systems

     

    "This heavy workload can lead to the idle-stop system being disabled, without the driver realising.

     

    Mr Kongats said that, as it stands, cars will meet all the emission and mileage tests when the battery is new, but as the battery starts to age the battery management system – which manages the health of the battery – will eventually turn off the idle-stop system to prevent damage to the battery.

     

    Drivers may lose the idle-stop function in their cars in as little as three or six months, he said.

     

    “They could restore it by getting a new battery, but the consumer is not going to be real happy replacing a lead-acid battery every six months.”"

     

    You becha.

     

    http://bit.ly/MqOZRs

     

    "“There has even been talk in China that they may make stop-start compulsory in new cars,” he said."
    13 Jun 2012, 12:21 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1317) | Send Message
     
    When one realizes exactly how long it takes for a new technology to be adopted by the auto manufacturers, blubs like this one are quite funny.
    13 Jun 2012, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    "Missing Link

     

    Efficiency, the smart grid, and high hopes for renewable energy are all dependent upon cutting-edge energy storage."

     

    http://bit.ly/K0LKMM
    13 Jun 2012, 12:49 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    "Syracuse University’s new Green Data Center is considered a game changer. Using 12 hybrid 65-kW, gas-powered microturbines from Capstone Turbine Corporation in a combined cooling, heating, and power allowing the data center to be isolated from the utility but still draw on it for backup, the system also provides conditioned power to the data center and uses the heat off the turbines to make hot water to cool the data center as well as heat an adjacent building. The system includes a 40-ton battery bank that holds enough power to carry the maximum load for 17 minutes in case of a catastrophic event".

     

    I'm just wondering who we have to team up with to become part of these projects? We need some bones thrown at us, preferably with a lot of meat on them. We've seen some tantalizing future projects, but no announcements on the battery supplier. IMHO it seems we get a "no mention" in too many articles.
    13 Jun 2012, 02:46 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    I just sent the author a nice congratulatory email for her article and provided her with a link to Axion's investor presentation and hinting it might deserve consideration in future articles. I bitched, but I did something about it; albeit a small effort. She probably thinks I'm a stalker as had to track down her email address - never underestimate the sleuthing capability of an Axionista.
    13 Jun 2012, 03:12 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    metro

     

    I've done a handful of those...even to my senator as an alternative to all the EV hype.
    Somethings gotta give...but...time and timing!!!!!
    13 Jun 2012, 02:19 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    She hasn't replied to my email as of yet. She is probably still mesmerized by the investor presentation, or by my writing skills on the email. ;)
    13 Jun 2012, 04:03 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9482) | Send Message
     
    Could you get fined (or jailed) because you are idling your car while waiting for a Whopper in a drive through?

     

    Something curious I haven't heard of before. A new and spreading law in some towns and cities like Salt Lake City are adopting an "idling law":

     

    http://on-msn.com/L6sDGS
    13 Jun 2012, 06:32 AM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    Using Mayas links from Concentrator 46 it appears that Axion may be increasing its imports of activated carbon.

     

    http://bit.ly/AnieIv

     

    http://bit.ly/wbHvtK
    13 Jun 2012, 06:36 AM Reply Like
  • battman
    , contributor
    Comments (373) | Send Message
     
    NS order?
    13 Jun 2012, 07:33 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Al,
    1900 kilos of activated carbon. How many kilos/pounds of activated carbon would there be in each battery? In pounds would be 4,180 lbs. Just trying to figure out approximate battery numbers this amount of carbon would produce.

     

    And what is greener than a battery produced from coconut shells? This is a rhetorical question, not a riddle. We get the lead out and put in the coconut - not a very catchy phrase..
    13 Jun 2012, 10:31 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Because I like you I'll try to cobble together a spreadsheet that gets us to a rough estimate.
    13 Jun 2012, 10:48 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    thanks.
    13 Jun 2012, 10:56 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    "And what is greener than a battery produced from coconut shells?"

     

    I heard this stuff only costs peanuts.

     

    http://bit.ly/K1Sb2c

     

    Not sure about the porosity though. I know Kirk mentioned they used to use activated carbon from some species of Russian tree in the past.
    13 Jun 2012, 11:00 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I've done my back of the napkin calculations and think Axion is probably using up to 1 kg of carbon per battery.

     

    My "PbC Materials Napkin" is here - http://bit.ly/L7u73q

     

    This is a rough guess derived by calculating the weight difference between an AGM 30HT and a PbC 30HT, calculating the volume of lead removed and carbon electrode assemblies added, and estimating that half the electrode assembly volume was carbon sheeting and the other half was current collector and corrosion barrier.

     

    If this number is anywhere near correct, the surface area of the carbon in a single PbC battery is on the order of 2 million square meters, or 494 acres.
    13 Jun 2012, 11:28 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Thanks, so Axion has imported approximately enough carbon for 1,900 batteries. Would there be a shelf life for the carbon, does it degrade, or could Axion just store it for many months?
    13 Jun 2012, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (1986) | Send Message
     
    Shelf life for charcoal or "activated carbon" is essentially infinite, if it is kept clean and dry in a closed container that excludes any atmospheric contaminants.

     

    "What is the shelf life of activated carbon?
    A4. Activated carbon has no shelf life. It will keep its pore structure and, hence, its adsorption characteristics until the activated carbon is put in contact with compounds that can be adsorbed. We recommend keeping it dry, separate from volatile organic chemicals and secure from rodent attacks."

     

    http://bit.ly/LTRcCN
    13 Jun 2012, 11:53 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    SMaturin
    Thanks for the reply. I guess I could have tried to find the answer myself, but sometimes just seem to forget I have the world wide web at my disposal.

     

    So I guess we don't know if Axion uses or stores it. It would seem curious to purchase two lots of it without having a use for both lots.
    13 Jun 2012, 12:09 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (1986) | Send Message
     
    I cannot quote prices, but keep in mind that "activated carbon" is just a fancy word for charcoal, which is darn cheap compared to the other ingredients going into the PbC and essentially infinitely available, as it can be made from cooking a very wide range of plant substances. Iindelco referenced a paper from Libya (above) that used peanut shells.

     

    The most important aspect of the activated carbon used by Axion, to my recollection from my reading, is the range and consistency of the pore size. There are some papers about this referenced in previous concentrators. They use coconut husks as the starting material because it gave the pore size range they found worked best in the PbC. But the Libyan paper shows that many other agricultural "waste products" could be found to work equally well.

     

    Carbon is probably the cheapest and most readily available ingredient in the PbC, but the company would want a supplier that can provide a consistent product. It will never be a constraint in the supply chain. The magic comes in knowing how to cook it and shape it into the Axion proprietary anode. That is the subject of the patent jveal alerted us to this week.
    13 Jun 2012, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9482) | Send Message
     
    AB, Metro & SMaturin...others: I have learned that Axion specifically buys the activated carbon from Kuraray Chemical Company in Japan for its "fineness" properties (admitting again, I am not a chemist). There was definitely a concern in New Castle after the Fukushima event that radiation could shut down this source, which I believe is quasi-crucial for the PbC. I do recall that there are other sources, but the tone of what I heard is the properties of the Kuraray activated carbon is the choice source.

     

    Another project I wish I had the time to tackle (entertaining company here until the 17th) is the gross weight the bill of lading shows of the shipment from China of the empty battery casings. Recalling that "small mountain" of battery casings I saw at the PowerCube unveiling, and the estimates of how many casings I saw, we could get some sort of guestimation as to how many casings were ordered from China.

     

    Recalling my first estimation was about 104,000, but later challenged all the way down to about 54,000 casings, we could possibly derive from the gross weight of the past shipment and compare it to the present shipment to arrive at some range of number that would discern for us how many flooded batteries Axion is "presently" making for East Penn. I still believe the number of batteries in that small mountain was closer to 104,000 than 54,000.

     

    Here are my notes from the Nov. 28 PowerCube unveiling: 24 casings/layer, 9 layers/pallet; 10 pallets deep, 15 pallets wide, some pallets stacked three high, some four high, a few five high (just mutliplying 24 times 9, times 10, times 15, times the average of 4 pallets high, gives us 129,600 casings, but do recall many more pallets were stacked three high, than four or five high). I wish I wasn't so nebulous about the heights, but as I was doing some figuring, along with Joe Picarelli and Rudy Barrio, we were summoned away by Phil Baker into the PowerCube before I/we could obtain a more definitive tally.

     

    It was then, by the way, that Phil Baker intimated that the PbC had surpassed 300,000 light cycles; oddly, during the past CC TG stated the same figure he stated last November of 100,000. I am merely guessing, but given the time frame between the July 20 Shareholders Conference, and the November 28 PowerCube unveiling, that we must be, if the PbC is still cranking along without degradation, and given that we went from 100,000 cycles to 300,000 cycles in a little over 5 months, the loose math, with another nearly seven months gone by as June 21 closes in, should be in the vicinity of 750,000 light cycles...again, if no degradation has occurred, and also if the testing parameters remained the same.

     

    I do recall TG humorously adding that the PbC may be the first battery ever in which the anode may not last as long as the cathode, and that Axion may be the first battery company ever to have to learn the durability of the anode, as the anode always outlasts the cathode. I want to qualify this as about seven months has past since I heard TG state this, so please understand that I am paraphrasing and not quoting.

     

    ####

     

    AlbertaBemuda: Great catch! I have been in that bill of lading website lots and lots of times, hoping to catch the next shipment. I also believe that iindelco had this info indigenously over on brand X far before I found it through one of my prolonged Google searches. So, as always, kudos goes to him.

     

    Again. I wish I had the time to do some more serious number crunching and guestimations, but I have only about 15 minutes left before I head out to do so some sight seeing.
    13 Jun 2012, 01:31 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (1986) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, Maya.

     

    Regarding the "fineness" of the product from the Japanese supplier, I would imagine that they have a high quality control with respect to the consistency and pore size of the final powder. At this stage, Axion is not buying huge amounts of carbon, and they probably do not feel constrained by the cost of the better quality product.

     

    A quick google search turns up at least a dozen carbon or activated charcoal suppliers in North America, and over 9000 listed on Alibaba.com.

     

    http://bit.ly/M3tRwG

     

    Many of the ones at the top of the list on Alibaba mention coconut shell sources, but if you look at the pictures, they come in a huge variety of powder, lump, granular, pellet and flake forms. Amongst 9000 asian suppliers, I would bet that Axion will be able to find plentiful economical sources with adequate quality control when they need to ramp up carbon electrode production, even if the Japanese supplier gets washed into the ocean. Grinding and cooking coconut shells into charcoal powder has been a technology in Asia for many centuries. Think of the origins of gunpowder.
    13 Jun 2012, 01:58 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    The one thing I've found odd is the importation of the battery case. Understanding the logistics cost it can't be the best economic decision to be buying these cases in China and importing them to the states. It costs money to ship air. If they were in fact in the flooded relationship with East Penn it would make far more sense for East Penn to supply them.

     

    Only thing I can figure is that the flooded battery impact at East Penn I theorize, as a result of retooling for the Ultrabattery, also impacted part of their molding operation.
    13 Jun 2012, 02:37 PM Reply Like
  • battman
    , contributor
    Comments (373) | Send Message
     
    Activated carbon from Japan after a nuclear reactor failure. Hmmmm.

     

    Start scene-
    Tom Granville sitting in his office. A news flash pops up on his computer. The DOE gives yet another "loan" to a lithium battery company. Granville pushes his computer monitor off his desk. "You're making me mad", his suddenly growing body starts breaking thorugh his shirt, his skin turning green. "Must....resist...... urge....... to........ crush .......things".

     

    Seriously, this stuff writes itself.
    13 Jun 2012, 02:43 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    Couldn't the cases be for PbC? Presumably they may have some PbC specific tweaks that would call for them to be manufactured to spec by some (overseas) contract supplier?
    13 Jun 2012, 02:45 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    Of course and please remember that the US is regaining its place as a manufacturing nation.

     

    Maybe, just maybe, AXION has found a suitable US supplier.
    If that's the case then finding supply data may have just become much more difficult.
    13 Jun 2012, 03:04 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Well maybe for the PBC but not flooded.

     

    And if this were true for the PBC, I'd really hope not because we were given the impression the design was intended to minimize the impact to the battery supplier. As such I'd hope that the only difference in the final assembly (PBC battery vs AGM) would be the swapping of the new PBC electrode assembly in the cell. All the subsequent operations and materials should be the same other than the labeling. Well unless there is testing.

     

    I think it's been pointed out that the final assembly line can be changed back and forth with minimal impact which is huge during transitional phases or if there is a need to supply both products.

     

    One thought counter to the point above is any poka yoke (mistake proofing) required so the customer does not put a PBC battery in an AGM application and the inverse. Maybe a special customer interface electrical terminal.
    13 Jun 2012, 03:11 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    48, Looked this up from last year. It's a good refresher.

     

    "Granville tells the company’s story from his office in New Castle, PA, as chemists, engineers, factory workers, and others work nearby to realize what he believes is Axion’s great promise.

     

    “What we’re doing here is replacing the lead negative electrode with an activated-carbon negative electrode,” he explained. “The negative electrode is the main failure mechanism in a lead-acid battery, and the reason it fails is because the lead on that side sulfates and sheds and causes end of battery life.”

     

    Activated carbon (carbon with much greater porosity and surface area) provides unique and favorable properties, said Granville: “It lasts three to four times longer in deep-cycle applications and it has much greater charge acceptance. Everything else is the same as a standard lead-acid battery: the case, the cover, the separator material, the electrolyte. You can’t tell the difference between this battery and your old car battery until you pick it up; it’s 30% lighter.”"

     

    http://bit.ly/z4fQJw
    14 Jun 2012, 06:18 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    iindelco, thanks sincerely. But I'm still unclear on a few concepts. Are all cases of the same group size indeed generic and interchangeable? Do cases of the same group from different manufacturers (ie exide, jci, eastpenn,) vary in any interior detail? Thus can batteries using different branded cases be manufactured on anybody's line, using anyone's electrodes, because the lines of all are all essentially the same? If that's true, then I really didn't appreciate the degree and depth of standardization that obtains throughout the industry.. In TG's quote you cited, I thought he was speaking more or less generically when he says "everything else is the same" ... which to my ear, admits for the possibility of at least some minor detail variation... but if I understand correctly now he really meant strictly "identical"? If that's truly the case, then I guess Axion can indeed buy AGM cases for PbC off the shelf from anyone? Appreciate all the light you shed...
    14 Jun 2012, 08:42 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3768) | Send Message
     
    I would love to have someone explain how the TG statement quoted squares with the assessment often encountered on the APCs that the PbC is NOT a drop in aftermarket replacement for an AGM battery.

     

    If a PbC battery is not a drop-in replacement the TG statement comes across as false- JMO.
    14 Jun 2012, 09:59 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    The cases are all standard dimension injection moulded plastic parts divided into six cells each. About the only thing that varies from manufacturer to manufacturer is the lug position but that's easy to vary when you cut the current collector. Simply put the tab where the manufacturer wants it.

     

    There are two different levels of plug and play.

     

    The electrode assemblies are a straight plug-and-play from the perspective of the battery manufacturer because once the tabs are in the right place, they run through the same stacking, insertion, top-casting and welding equipment. The PbC prefers a slightly weaker electrolyte, but that's another easy adjustment. For all intents and purposes, the PbC electrode assemblies are plug and play at the manufacturer level.

     

    A completed PbC battery, however, is not a straight plug-and-play replacement for an AGM battery because their performance specs are significantly different. You want to use a PbC in an application that's been designed to take advantage of its strengths and accommodate its weaknesses.
    14 Jun 2012, 11:47 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    John, I was thinking about one other item before responding to 48. As we know battery cases can have quite a few feature differences. The one thing that we need to think about is which ones are auxiliary to the function of PBC vs AGM and which ones are not. As an example of a nonfunctional difference some have features at the bottom of the case to allow a camming clamp action when an external bolt/cam are tightened to mount the battery in the vehicle. Another example are various different types of handles.

     

    I was trying to find out what features internal to the case might differ based on different manufacturer designs. One might be the amount of room under the cells to allow for the sludge material to build up over the life of a standard battery. This could, of coarse, be auxiliary and nonfunctional for the PBC. The other area is in the cell width. In this case I'm trying to think of how this might differ for different battery designs. As we know, for the AGM batteries the cells want to be kept under compression. And we also know that different characteristics can be had by doing things like adjusting plate thickness in both the anode and the cathode. So I'm just wondering if this is an area that might be impacted.

     

    If it is it might easily be an insert in the mold where the entire mold is not changed but the cell dimensional change is had by changing inserts to the tool (sorry for those not familiar). Anyway just one thought where there is an area of risk were a dimensional change might have to be had. Not a big deal but it would require another part number. And it's important to understand to answer 48 correctly.

     

    Maybe you have more detail than I in this area. Maybe the separator just swells enough when the acid is added? Or they just keep within certain ratios in the anode/cathode for the case ranges they require?
    15 Jun 2012, 12:15 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    There are a wide variety of external differences that don't impact the way the electrode stacks fit into cells. About the only one that impacts electrode assembly manufacturing are top-cast and lug positioning.

     

    With standard exterior dimensions based on group size, the only way to vary the interior dimensions of a cell is making the walls thinner or thicker. Even then you're looking at a difference of perhaps a few hundredths of an inch. The AGM separator sheets are tightly compressed to begin with. The fit of a dry plate stack within the cell is *snug* When you add electrolyte and the AGM swells the fit becomes tight, but not so tight that it risks rupturing the case. Things like sludge spacing are far less important in AGM because the electrolyte stays in the mat instead of filling the cell.
    15 Jun 2012, 01:01 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (775) | Send Message
     
    Good Morning:
    A question to all:
    Will this 2.0M be the end of the problems in the shareholding composition of AXPW?
    Thanks.
    Carlos
    13 Jun 2012, 07:42 AM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (666) | Send Message
     
    Probably not. It will move more shares into stronger hands. However, the dry powder is running low in most of our hands. It will slightly delay JP's inflection point that he has predicted to occur by the end of the summer.
    13 Jun 2012, 08:06 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I'm still seeing the end of the summer as an outside date unless trading volumes drop way off. There are so many shares that have moved from weak to strong hands over the last two years that I think the outcome is inevitable. Unfortunately I can's answer everybody's favorite question "When?"

     

    I know that Noah was getting real tired of the rain by day 20 and when the count got into the high 30s he knew it was never going to end. We have the same emotional dynamic now but the good news is the end always comes- usually when we least expect it.
    13 Jun 2012, 08:18 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    There's always something to worry about.

     

    http://bit.ly/LCIZEs
    13 Jun 2012, 08:39 AM Reply Like
  • Articula
    , contributor
    Comments (237) | Send Message
     
    John an interesting article may be to catch-up new investors on how the stock got here and where you see it going from a supply and demand viewpoint.

     

    Much like the market dynamics "fish barrel" story now, but with updates to include Querscus/MegaC/Blackrock. Maybe include a timeline.
    13 Jun 2012, 10:23 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I'd love to be able to write that story but it would never clear the editorial staff at SA. They have a long standing policy against articles on sub-$1 stocks unless you can make a reasonable argument that the price is an aberration, which is pretty hard to do since the price has been down this long even though I honestly believe it is in fact an aberration.

     

    I'm thinking about doing an article on A123's announcement from yesterday, but want to be careful about how I draw the landscape. I'm also hoping to get some back channel information so that I can offer something a little more precise than gut instinct.

     

    The good part is my wife's on the road right now with her own dog and pony show which leaves me plenty of quiet time to let the muse take me where she will.
    13 Jun 2012, 10:33 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    iindelco,
    I'm glad that was a joke.
    13 Jun 2012, 10:39 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    Thanks jveal and John

     

    I was wondering about the same timing issue.
    IMHO, the real panacea will be hard news. (sales)
    13 Jun 2012, 02:25 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    US coal use falling fast; utilities switch to gas

     

    http://yhoo.it/M0ilUU
    13 Jun 2012, 09:50 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1175) | Send Message
     
    ". . .a new business model for EV deployment. Under the new business model, ultrafast charging stations will be financed, built and operated by utility companies much like gas stations are owned by oil companies today."

     

    Press Release: Microvast Opens First Ultra-fast Electric Bus Charging Station
    http://bit.ly/L7xCa7
    13 Jun 2012, 11:42 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3768) | Send Message
     
    Sobering article, iindelco. Coal transport accounts for better than 20% of NSC cargo traffic (http://tinyurl.com/ug98h).
    13 Jun 2012, 03:00 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Thanks D-inv.

     

    Here is a recent interview with their CEO where he addresses the coal transport issue.

     

    http://bit.ly/KCcCEq
    13 Jun 2012, 03:23 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3768) | Send Message
     
    Thank you for the link, iindelco.
    13 Jun 2012, 11:57 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Tom Konrad just gave Axion another nod in a Forbes article that focused on A123.

     

    http://onforb.es/LD8mpT
    13 Jun 2012, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    "Early stop-start vehicles using advanced lead acid batteries work well in the beginning, but get worse mileage as the batteries degrade in a matter of months. A drop-in replacement based on high temperature lithium ion batteries would be a quick fix for any of these vehicles already on the road."

     

    This may or may not be a nice market, Not sure how another battery chemistry would work with the Maxwell system. Would it only be compatible with another LA battery?. Not sure how many people would actually make the switch to another chemistry if they had to pay several hundred dollars to do it. It might be cheaper for the OEM just to keep supplying new batteries to whoever wanted one because it seems that many just shut off the ss system anyway..
    13 Jun 2012, 11:03 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I'm not convinced that anything but lead-acid would work as a drop-in but I'm hoping Iindelco can tell us.
    13 Jun 2012, 11:32 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1823) | Send Message
     
    I hate to say it but it makes you wonder, even though lithium-based batteries would be more expensive than a PbC, it might be easier for automakers to avoid the redesign required to incorporate PbC and just drop the lithium in to replace the AGM.

     

    D
    13 Jun 2012, 12:01 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    When you start multiplying a $250 to $750 price differential by a few million vehicles per year, easier is not much of a consideration.
    13 Jun 2012, 12:05 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    For OEM, too, or replacement only?
    13 Jun 2012, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    John , Well it might work but it wouldn't work well. The key being might. The algorithms would not be right in the BMS. Peak charge voltages might be too high (worse) or too low depending on the battery chemistry/number of cells (Different cathode materials yield different cell voltages) . Safety should be OK IF all of the circuity is included in the lithium ion battery pack. Also under hood battery temperatures are going to be different depending on the vehicles configuration such as body style, engine package and location of the pack so you'd need to be careful although the on board electronics would prevent thermal runaway should the battery get too hot. Although most manufacturers are choosing to put the batteries in the passenger compartment or the trunk (AGM doesn't like temp. too high). Do you want to be siting on top of a lithium ion battery in the passenger compartment. And remember they gas so this needs to be managed.

     

    Oh, and don't forget the prior discussion on the reprogramming of the vehicles BMS concerning new BMW battery vs old BMW battery. The BMS is adapting based on the life cycle of the OEM battery design. Since this will be significantly different than the lithium ion battery it will function as a huge compromise or perhaps not at all.

     

    I guess in the end this would be a hobby project or the lithium ion battery supplier would have to go through and verify each vehicle as to what level of adjustments would need to be made to make their offering a "drop in". And you'd still not get peak performance without extensive changes.

     

    In the end if this ever took off at any level it would really be a reaction to a really bad decision by the OEM to give the customer a solution not fitting of the application. Not what you want to be noted for in a very competitive industry.

     

    Oh, and recommend it and make a mistake. HELLO financial pain.

     

    PS An example of the competition in the industry, Honda just admitted they are losing money on every vehicle they export from Japan to the US. I guess having the yen go from 125 to 80 vs the USD does have an impact. I can remember about a decade ago it was in the 160's.
    13 Jun 2012, 12:16 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Someone in the aftermarket has been offering LI battery replacements for BMW's for several years. I have seen one (and yes, it was installed in the passenger compartment). Price was over $1200 as I recall, and the last one I saw was 2 years back.

     

    If I can find a link I'll post it.

     

    http://bit.ly/L7ISDB
    13 Jun 2012, 12:20 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    OEM. Their happy talk story in the NYT estimated $250 more than AGM but they've never produced batteries for less than $1,000 per kWh so I have a hard time buying $400 for a 700 wh battery including a decent markup on costs.
    13 Jun 2012, 12:21 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/MEOAIs

     

    Porsche answer. They ship the car with the usual lead acid battery, and the owner can swap in the $1700 optional LI battery whenever its not too cold and save 10kg.
    13 Jun 2012, 12:30 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Yes but Porche designed it in.

     

    I could see how that would work.
    13 Jun 2012, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    D. McHattie, Maybe once you get into the exotic cars people might not sweat the details of dollars. When you're in the main stream auto market selling vehicles to the mass market they sweat pennies. They would go way out of their way to design out dollars if they can get away with it.

     

    As I just posted above Honda is losing money on every import to the US from Japan which is 6% of their sales. Go to a Honda platform team meeting and say "It would be easier if we just dropped in this battery and it's only 1 or 2 hundred USD's more. A) They would think you are technically incompetent because for an engineer it's really no easier. B) They would offer you advice on an economics class during your exit interview.

     

    My son asked my advice on a minor which is required along with his core classes for his engineering degree. I jumped up and down yelling economics. During his last quarter this year one of his professors in an engineering coarse, without prompting, indicated that he always advised engineers to take economics to support their aspirations. I will tell you from experience understanding the value of money makes a big difference in your decision making process as an engineer and since money is always a consideration it should be part of the design thought process from blue sky to end of production. And it is but some do it better.
    13 Jun 2012, 01:04 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    $1,700.00?!?!?!?!

     

    Gosh!
    13 Jun 2012, 01:40 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    But John you neglect the HUGE value imparted by the boffins in the PR Firms being employed by the Li-on manufacturers!

     

    If the ad guys can sell you on the idea that Li-on is green and your neighbor has one maybe you should too!????

     

    I gotta say that in my heart of hearts Axion needs a really good PR firm to get the message out there, and soon.
    13 Jun 2012, 01:47 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    Gently, no offense intended, would you consider using course instead of coarse? Please.
    13 Jun 2012, 01:49 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    of corse
    13 Jun 2012, 01:56 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    I thank you kind sir.
    13 Jun 2012, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Oops, Thanks Albert.

     

    Sorry if it came off as harsh. It was not intended to be so.
    13 Jun 2012, 02:19 PM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1823) | Send Message
     
    I appreciate the responses, guys.

     

    Every once in awhile doubts about individual markets for the PbC creep in so it's nice for you to chase those doubts back to the shadows where they belong.

     

    D
    13 Jun 2012, 02:45 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Albert, People with money and their toys! :)

     

    To a race car fanatic that level of mass reduction might be worth every penny.
    13 Jun 2012, 03:28 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    The ones I always got a kick out of were the slightly overweight bicycle fanatics who wanted to shave grams off their wheels instead of taking the load off their bicycle seat.
    13 Jun 2012, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    Or more crucially by shaving their legs to reduce drag!!!!!
    13 Jun 2012, 03:44 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    I guess it's easier to spend time and/or money to remove grams from components then it is to address cubic displacement in the power plant!

     

    Besides, people often ignore what they can't see! :)
    13 Jun 2012, 03:50 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2083) | Send Message
     
    I've noticed, repeatedly, that the EVangelists ignore the "time cost of money" in their attempts to prove that a BEV will save money over 20 years of use. 20 years is over the doubling rate with any kind of rational interest charge.

     

    Unless you are a Spanish bank, of course ;-) Actually, American banks are now paying near zero rates. Hummm. How can I get in on that? :-(
    13 Jun 2012, 04:47 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    "Actually, American banks are now paying near zero rates."

     

    Uhmmm, Aren't rates also supposed to not only take into account the risk to the lender but also account for inflation? You tell me the rate of inflation and we'll decide if they are near zero rates. You know where I'm going with this for sure. What group reports inflation and is most advantaged by under reporting the real rate? :)
    -
    And in the end the savers spent their rubles and remembered well how they were rewarded for being conservative while their neighbors lived for years in housing they could never afford in their wildest imagination. THE END. lol
    13 Jun 2012, 05:19 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    SHB: "... ignore the "time cost of money""

     

    Maybe we shouldn't be throwing stones from the porch of our glass house here? ;-))

     

    HardToLove
    14 Jun 2012, 07:22 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2083) | Send Message
     
    HTL: Are you making some comment about the immediate monetary return on my Axion stock investment? If so, an electronic Bronx cheer in your general direction :-)

     

    I'll have you know I am a Long Term investor. My heirs might be even longer term investors ;-)
    15 Jun 2012, 01:48 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1317) | Send Message
     
    I just put a floor under the stock's price with a large order for .29.
    13 Jun 2012, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    We'll see if the megafish bites. I may join you if he does.
    13 Jun 2012, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    Had you made an attempt to put a floor in at .40 I would have thanked you ;)
    13 Jun 2012, 11:50 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    LOL, since that would have required an order of at least 2m shares @ $.40, I suspect we would have all thanked him.
    13 Jun 2012, 11:54 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >metroneanderthal ... Sorry, not the nature of the game as played here. I, for one, appreciate the thought.
    13 Jun 2012, 11:55 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    This may be the only place in the world where people pray for predators.
    13 Jun 2012, 12:06 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    JP: In this case the "predator" is presenting his "prey" with an opportunity to dine upon the predator. The role reversal is extreme.

     

    LOL, megafish is a crossdresser.
    13 Jun 2012, 12:09 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1887) | Send Message
     
    Thot, we had a 200k order at .29 yesterday is that different from your order today, or was that you. I don't have level II so I am going by what investor mentioned as a bid yesterday.
    13 Jun 2012, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    Isn't this kind of like a lantern fish, or perhaps a venus flytrap.
    13 Jun 2012, 12:55 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Metro: No, its just a big lazy whale willing to take a lot less for his shares than they are worth so long as he can get his money now and get out. His selling price has nothing to do with the company and everything to do with his hurry.
    13 Jun 2012, 12:58 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    triple,
    sorry, thought you were talking about thotdoc, got confused on who is predator and who is prey - not hard to do when you have a relatively flat and sloping forehead.
    13 Jun 2012, 01:42 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    I will buy any AXPW share you care to sell at $0.20 between now and the start of the AGM.

     

    Cross my heart and hope to prosper!
    13 Jun 2012, 01:53 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    No apologies needed my friend. I'm just hoping that we aren't all looking back in a few weeks with longing for the days when AXPW stock was higher than .29...
    13 Jun 2012, 03:24 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1317) | Send Message
     
    the 200k order was not mine. My action was today

     

    G
    13 Jun 2012, 06:14 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    thotdoc,
    In thinking about your order to set a price floor, are you thinking of a multi-million share order? I just began thinking that maybe you are serious and have enough spare change around to do it. That would get a thanks from many.
    15 Jun 2012, 02:21 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1317) | Send Message
     
    Well, once I sent an email to Bill Gates offering him the chance to send me $1,000,000 so I wouldn't buy shares in Microsoft.
    13 Jun 2012, 12:14 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    That's actually proof positive that none of the companies I write about care as long as I spell their name and stock ticker right. Lawyers and whores are the only professions on the planet that get to sell it and take it home. If somebody really wanted me to shut-up they'd just put the law firm on retainer and rely on attorney-client confidentiality.
    13 Jun 2012, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2224) | Send Message
     
    Interesting comment JP. The first 10-12 years of my life I was a retained headhunter. I divided the US into regions and I would call the company I wanted to represent in a particular region and see if they could use my services. If not the obvious point was their company would be a source of people for my other clients. My firm had a 3 person research department that kept track of 250,000 executives in the industries in which we were active.

     

    So what's the point. One firm in New York got tired of us pinging on their execs and retained us for 10,000 bucks for assignments as necessary. They never gave us one assignment - they just wanted us to lay off their regional managers in various parts of the country.

     

    Since we are just watching the paint flake off today I will tell you about the most unusual assignment I ever had. A major Canadian communications company was opening an operation in the US and needed to hire a bunch of people. However, they didn't want their plans to leak. So they wanted me to recruit their initial customer service staff from other communications firms in the Wash DC reason. Two catches. I could not disclose who the client was and the employees if hired would leave the US for 3 months training and I could not tell them where they would be going!

     

    When we got down to the offer stage with 5 people a woman asked me if she would learn what the job was and where they were going. I jokingly thought about telling her she was going to be a "comfort" worker in a oil exploration camp in Irag.
    13 Jun 2012, 04:36 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    bang, I remember witnessing Xerox hunting female engineers from a local GM plant I was doing business with. In about a month they hired half of their female engineers (which was far less of the engineering staff proportionally than I'm sure it would be today.) based on what I'm assuming where some internal initiatives to meet government EEOC requirements (Please do not read anything into this about my feelings about female engineers. But I understand statistics and this was not random hiring based on skill set only.).

     

    One call from GM corporate, undocumented I'm sure, and it ended like the life of a flower after the first hard frost.
    13 Jun 2012, 04:50 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1887) | Send Message
     
    When John had mentioned the syndicate I thought that perhaps we could work it where we all just agree on a bid price, say 20% below current bid and we all put in bids at that price creating one monster offer that essentially says to the seller, "Come and get it...f'er!"

     

    I don't have much dry powder but I could probably wrangle something together. I am looking to dance with the devil but he won't show his ugly face at the Ball, perhaps if we created a deep-sea bottom feeding monster he would flash his ugly mug and we could get this show on the road.
    13 Jun 2012, 01:31 PM Reply Like
  • Mercy Jimenez
    , contributor
    Comments (1822) | Send Message
     
    In my continuing spirit of full disclosure -- wanted to let folks here know that I have been liquidating my position in AXPW over the past few weeks and have now sold completely out of my position at a small loss (I bought my first bloc @31cents.) This decision is right for me -- and me alone -- and in no way is intended to imply what I consider a share price top or bottom, etc.

     

    Here are my personal reasons for selling -- for anyone interested -- and if not interested just click on to the next comment LOL:

     

    1) I still believe theoretically in the value of the technology but technology does not sell itself and business plans do not execute themselves. After the last conference call, my confidence deteriorated in the leadership team's ability to commit and be held accountable for minimum/general milestones to measure performance success; I was also disappointed to watch a capital raise early this year which was less than 100% of the authorized level -- while management may have to do another raise around 4Q/1Q -- just when the US economic fiscal cliff tug of war kicks in; sure hope they know something I don't;

     

    2) I think " a strong hand" for ANY investor is found in an ongoing risk vs. reward analysis of their own individual portfolio. Since I have kept a large cash level this year in my equity allocation portfolio -- I have plenty of dry powder -- but my other alternatives for investing appear to present a better risk/reward equation for my funds and my time personally.

     

    3) Finally I want to say how much I have appreciated all APC contributors for the vast amount of knowledge you have all so generously shared. I deeply respect so many of you -- and my sincere hope is that the risk/reward of the AXPW investment delivers returns to you beyond your wildest dreams. That would genuinely please me.

     

    My best unsolicited advice to all is listen to your own head, gut, (and other body parts :-)) and do what is right for you irrespective of what I have said above or what others have to say. I never feel like I lose -- when I am true to myself first.

     

    Good luck to all!

     

    mj
    13 Jun 2012, 01:44 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9482) | Send Message
     
    Mercy: Wonderful comment and explanation. However, I have to quibble with your number two.

     

    Senator Bob Casey, a democrat from PA, recently called my Wells Fargo broker (unsolicited, and my broker had me howling; "This sounds like Bob Casey. That's because it is Bob Casey," etc., truly funny stuff). They spoke of the foreboding "fiscal cliff" that no extension of the Bush Tax cuts would probably cause. Casey stated he believed that the Bush Tax cuts would be extended next year, for at least six months to a full year, as the economy is still too fragile.

     

    Then along came an interview with Bill Clinton last week. He stated exactly the same thing...almost as if I was listening to my broker recounting Casey. Hence, I am NOT worried one bit about the fiscal cliff occurring at the end of this year, with two prominent democrats rhetoric being damned near exactly the same. Both of those quite powerful people must know what's going on inside the beltway.
    13 Jun 2012, 01:53 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    Mercy,
    Good luck to you. Thanks for your comments and contributions.
    13 Jun 2012, 01:54 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    Maya,
    Hope you are right, though I don't know if I agree that Democrats and Republicans in Congress can agree to "anything" these days, and with the Bush tax cuts, the only way for them to extend them is "to" agree on something. Plus the White House has said that it will veto anything that extends the tax cuts for those making over $250k/year, so we will see. It is the reason why I just finished converting my other IRA to a Roth IRA this year. Figured I'd take the tax hit this year while I do have more tax exceptions. One advantage of Axion's current price is that the IRA was worth less during conversion, than it was when I put the money in there, so at least that is less in income taxes that I'll have to pay. Gotta look for those silver linings!
    13 Jun 2012, 02:10 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Mercy,

     

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I've also enjoyed and appreciate your contribution here.

     

    Best of luck to you.
    13 Jun 2012, 02:26 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2422) | Send Message
     
    Let me begin by saying that I hope management reads and considers your reasoning for liquidating your investment.

     

    Mercy -

     

    Thank you for your thoughts and comments. As many here, I listened to and participated in the CC where your questions were seemingly deflected. And while I understand and respect TG's inability to make concrete predictions as to when a bigger fish may proceed with contracts. As you elaborated after the call, he can no doubt utilize generic information to give minimum/general milestones to measure performance success.

     

    In fact, he has already done that. In the new investor presentation released shortly after Christmas, on slide 21, Axion discussed 4 different milestones w/r/t hybrid vehicle commercialization. Including, discussing multiple European auto OEMs and one very large US auto OEM in testing. These types of statements could be updated to show progress without violating NDAs.

     

    He has also stated in CCs that Axion is working with other locomotive companies. This information could also be structured to provide information without violating NDAs.

     

    Same with potential opportunities in both grid and military.

     

    http://bit.ly/LkN53L

     

    I am not saying that any one way is necessarily correct, what I am saying is that we on this board continue to discuss that we can't wait to get past the pool of willing sellers. However, every time, we see a potential clearing, another one pops up, i.e. Blackrock, the MegaTrust, etc.

     

    Yes, we have come up with plausible reasoning as to why each entity sold. However, just b/c there are plausible explanations doesn't mean they are the correct explanations. The one constant is that each entity has sold or is selling, period.

     

    If management can't sell the story to keep investors interested that is a problem. Outside of the Axionistas, I hope Axion can get investors motivated to take part in what I think is a great story.
    13 Jun 2012, 02:33 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I'm sorry that you found Tom's reluctance to give you general performance targets disconcerting. Given the sensitive nature of the projects Axion is working on I knew there was no way Tom could or would answer the question before you finished asking it. Axion is a sub-$50 million nano-cap company that has working relationships with some of the biggest companies in the world. Their rule is always the same, keep your head down and your mouth shut unless we give you permission to talk, and even then stick to the script.

     

    The most important thing anybody can know about Tom Granville's style and personal demeanor is that he spent the decade before Axion working as a management side national labor contract negotiator for the US elevator industry and providing oversight for the industry's $2.3 billion pension fund.

     

    Among lawyers and others who negotiate contracts for a living, nobody is held in higher esteem than the management side national contract negotiators. When James Bolch took the CEO post at Exide, I asked Tom if he'd known Bolch when he was Executive Vice President of Schindler Elevator. Tom just chuckled and said he didn't have contact that far down the food chain.

     

    Guys like Tom don't ever tip their hand, even to friends, and they don't forecast results that they don't already have in hand. He can be infuriating at times because he plays his cards so close, but if I was 20 years younger I'd take a one year sabbatical for the privilege of carrying Tom Granville's briefcase.
    13 Jun 2012, 02:45 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the debriefing, and good luck, Mercy.

     

    I think there is an excellent lesson here for new investors to newly commercializing micro-cap stocks. It is my experience, anyway, that the flow of information, other than that required by the SEC, from the company to you, as a public shareholder, will be very small. These companies are NOT IBM. Not yet, anyway! As the company matures, the flow usually increases.

     

    Having such an expectation may help you avoid wasting time and money.
    13 Jun 2012, 02:49 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1887) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for sharing Mercy. I think everyone can appreciate your reasons, it is not a particularly easy hold in these times.
    13 Jun 2012, 02:50 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    Mercy

     

    Understandable...thanks for your investment strategic insight and rationale.
    You've added balance and due diligence with your lucid comments.

     

    Good advice..."...listen to your own head, gut..."

     

    Hopefully you'll continue to check in!
    13 Jun 2012, 03:02 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2282) | Send Message
     
    JP - appreciate that sentiment, and it jibes with what I've observed and what you've said several times, with the exception that Tom did seem to give some guidance in the year end call, but then we didn't get any followup on it in the First Quarter call, which really wasn't that long after. It almost seemed like he was withdrawing it. I think that might have spooked a few people, and for some chipped away just a little from their view of Tom's "perfection" when it comes to playing it close to the vest.
    13 Jun 2012, 03:34 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (956) | Send Message
     
    i liquidated my position tuesday. i initially warmed to the idea of a syndicate and have to say that the lack of interest (measured in dollars) was a bit surprising.

     

    until financing gets done i can't see a reason to own the stock.

     

    a good tech doesn't = a successful business and with the share price so broken any potential deals will have to be made with people carrying knives.

     

    i would love to see financing or a partnership alleviate my concerns, and am comfortable knowing that the stock will remain broken long enough for me to buy without missing a big opportunity.

     

    speaking of opportunity, those are much easier to find in my opinion. i'd much rather own a company earning 1/2 a billion dollars a year and yielding ten percent even with declining revenues.

     

    finally, the inability of "bottom feeders" to realize that not buying stock materially affects financing options is borderline unbelievable to me and i won't champion a stock alone (i realize this is hyperbolic).

     

    this was a tough call for me, and i promised myself i'd wait to see those financing terms before before i consider a purchase.

     

    Stefan Moroney, you tell Mercy the goals she wanted from TG could be found in a christmas investor presentation release. that isn't good enough imo for two reasons:

     

    this company needs to attract new investors (particularly when people here will not deploy new capital) and it is managements job to make it easy for potential investors to manage their expectations.

     

    while navigating non disclosure agreements is tricky, explaining ad nauseam what markets interest you, why and what kind of margins they'd provide is always worth the investor's and company's time.
    13 Jun 2012, 03:48 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    Good luck, tragic.

     

    Well, another lesson we are learning is there is some softness in the Axionista armor.

     

    I'm thinking the BK Trustee hasn't sold much if anything yet--the heavy selling the last few days was Axionistas and similar folks bailing out or at least lightening up. But I don't yet sense that capitulation has run its course yet. And what was support at 35 cents and 37 cents, etc., is now resistance. Could be a heck of a lot of 35 cent placement people there, hoping to just get their money back.
    13 Jun 2012, 04:10 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    tragicslip, Best of luck to you.

     

    I did want to make two comments though.

     

    First, the proposal being investigated by John had nothing to do with people applying new capital to Axions business as I understand it. It had more to do with cleaning up some of the people looking for an exit . Yes, you could argue that if this works it would allow for Axion to do a more efficient capital raise in the future. I would argue that if they don't have any announcements by then it will not help much. (Sorry if I'm wrong here as I didn't read it that closely because of my second point).

     

    Second, I would be careful reading too much into how many might have found the capital to assign to the proposal John put forth. I only say this because in my case I am so far over weight in the asset it would be hard for me to justify adding based on my future needs.

     

    Anyway, just wanted to point out some of my thoughts on your concerns.

     

    Again, best of luck. Making individual choices based on shared information and thoughts is why we're here.
    13 Jun 2012, 04:12 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2422) | Send Message
     
    Tragic - I think you have the intent of my post mistaken. What I was saying is that TG has already provided some goals and progress, so I think the idea that TG cannot provide any general progress or goal markers is an incorrect interpretation of his duty as CEO of a small company attempting to commercialize a product.

     

    While I understand the need to protect those relationships, if he cannot get financing/investors to make it to the finish line, who cares if he held his cards close to his chest?

     

    Nevertheless, I still have the position that I set out to accumulate and I intend to see what additional cards are in store.
    13 Jun 2012, 04:21 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Mr Investor, I don't consider this to be softness in the armor. While we are a group sharing common interests, information and thoughts we are individual investors. And as John has pointed out before, along with his stronger hands comments, having a large group of investors that are well educated on the asset is better than having concentrations in individuals and funds. I think we'll adjust more rationally based on personal thoughts and needs then the funds will. We saw that last year.

     

    By the way, I've been very vocal in my thoughts that what was occurring was adjustments in this group and not what John pointed out. The timing was just too spot on.
    13 Jun 2012, 04:29 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (956) | Send Message
     
    i understand many of the axonistas are over weight and that certainly would make additional purchases difficult.

     

    that of course is not the same thing as trying to time the stock and bottom fishing. i am not trying to get critical of anyone's investment strategy, just sharing my own. i appreciate your and other illuminating thoughts on the matter.
    13 Jun 2012, 04:44 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    FWIW I recognized a level of risk when I mentioned what I'd learned about the shares going over to the bankruptcy trustee. That kind of information always gives rise to one of three reactions. A few will "no mas," the majority will take it in stride and a few will say "opportunity calls." All three reactions are certain in any group this size, but at the end of the day it was information that I has and thought you all needed to know about.

     

    Once a company like Axion catches an investor's interest, they keep watching even if they sell. I can remember a royal reaming that I took in early 2010 from one of our dearest friends who was outraged by the terms of the 2009 offering and sold. They'll be back.
    13 Jun 2012, 04:53 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Understood.

     

    I guess I don't read as much into the bottom fishing strategy as you do. Small caps will swing around and for someone that is looking to get a deal taking advantage of spikes to start or add to a position is a perfectly rational strategy. Just like using technical indicators and fundamental analysis can be. Everyone has different investment needs and strategies

     

    In the end I value this board for the broad background (personal, educational and professional) that the members have. That the members of this group of people are willing to share their findings and thoughts is really a blessing.

     

    But in the end we're here to do our best to make money and share thoughts and findings to satisfy our need for knowledge in areas of common interest . Concerning the money point, we all have to make individual decisions on when we buy or sell based on needs that are wholly personal. There are no right common answers because we have such varying needs. Your decision was the right one for you.
    13 Jun 2012, 05:10 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    John, I respect you for your decision to share the information when you discovered it. Just as others do in sharing findings that seem to increase or decrease Axion's odds.

     

    Another mid size seller is not what we'd hoped for but looking at the selling only and not taking into consideration the reasons, as you pointed out with Quercus, is not rational. Now some might take the opportunity based on this added data point to adjust down and add again, just adjust, hang tight or say "no mas" as you suggest. These are all personal and valid decisions. We all have out own personalized "weighing machines". (Where did I heard that term reiterated from?)
    13 Jun 2012, 05:35 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2422) | Send Message
     
    iindelco, I agree with your sentiment completely.
    13 Jun 2012, 05:44 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    Agreed. We all have our own needs and aspirations for this stock and our own time frames. In the meantime we are just filing time and sharing an abundance of information that none of us could find on our own. Luckily for me, I have a "few" years until retirement, so I can wait longer to see whether I've purchased a well fertilized plant that will yield much fruit, or just a lot of fertilizer. ;-)
    Time will tell.
    13 Jun 2012, 06:18 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Mercy

     

    I am glad to see another individual who had the same feelings as i did. Again the technology looks good, but those conference calls were very disturbing to me as well.

     

    Quite frankly, i am sure others feel the same way as us but won't put it in writing. In fact i received a few PM'S noting their approval of my sale.

     

    I again hope for all it works out, but i seriously doubt it, hence i liquidated my position as well. My bet is this stock goes below 15 cents one day. Time will tell whose right.

     

    My guess is as good as anyones, Bang offered me a bet it would not go below 40 cents...I bet he is wishing it was now at 40 cents!!!
    Time is running out, competition will step in, and a management team that boasts 300 to 400% sales and then essentially shuts up (no forward guidance anymore from them ) weeks later is a huge red flag.

     

    Just wait to those flippers really start bailing out, or have already. The pressure on the price will be tremendous. Will be watching the dilution price of the next offering, if there is one.

     

    Also learned a lesson a long time ago, NEVER spend and chase with good money after bad money. It seems others also now had enough !!!

     

    map
    13 Jun 2012, 09:51 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Tragic

     

    Ditto....glad to see another person tell the truth about selling this one! I agree that if they ever turn it around we have plenty of time to get back in. My gut says that day won't come. Whose to say that a competitor won't have something not as good but much cheaper??

     

    BLACKSTONE doesn't sell if they think they have a winner, and if anyone thinks otherwise they really need to look in the mirror.

     

    map
    13 Jun 2012, 10:03 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    We'll just have to agree to disagree on your assessment MAP. To suggest that time is running out is to ignore the fact that the stop/start market is still in its infancy. Only a few automakers offer it now here in the US. Everyone is talking about it being standard equipment in a few years and no one has the battery capacity for that yet. If we get to the end of testing with the various auto OEMs and they say "no thank you", then we will have problems. But when they are still testing it's kind of hard to buy the argument that time is running out.
    13 Jun 2012, 10:09 PM Reply Like
  • Metals are Precious
    , contributor
    Comments (713) | Send Message
     
    Lab

     

    I will accept that answer. My concern is that the longer this drags out the more competition with way more funds will step into the game. Like i said i wish nothing but the best for all. But i had way too many of my comments, because they were negative, deleted.

     

    Then , like stated , we all have our own thresholds of when we had enough. Or for some the loss is now at a point that it is just foolish to bail.

     

    I always admitted i have no clue of the technology. But i do have a sense when things just don't seem right. This is one of those times.

     

    Good luck,
    13 Jun 2012, 10:31 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    FWIW, I think y'all are nuts! ;)
    14 Jun 2012, 12:07 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    86,

     

    Was that ever in doubt??? ;-)
    14 Jun 2012, 09:52 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    tragicslip

     

    Thanks for your contributions here and other blogs.
    Hopefully you too will check in again.
    14 Jun 2012, 04:24 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    86....who is "y'all"?
    14 Jun 2012, 04:29 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Everybody who's not "we'uns".
    14 Jun 2012, 05:54 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >tripleblack ... Nobody outside of Pogo & Lil' Abner actually uses *we'uns* ... do they? (glad I don't live there).
    14 Jun 2012, 06:06 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Nope. Still in use with the ridge runner clans in the deep South. More rare than when I was younger, but maybe its just that I don't hang out with my scarier kin like I once did...
    14 Jun 2012, 06:11 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Anyone who doubts me should check out the reality tv shows about the Swamp Loggers and the Swamp People who hunt alligators. Notice the necessity to run subtitles as if it were a French movie...

     

    LOL, and sometimes the "translation" gets it wrong, too.
    14 Jun 2012, 06:13 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >tripleblack ... You'd sooner find me watching FOX for information as those for entertainment.
    14 Jun 2012, 06:22 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    I make it a practice to listen to opposing viewpoints and check sources of information that challenge my preconceptions... Its the rare source or culture that has nothing to contribute.
    14 Jun 2012, 06:31 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    You southerners, Everyone knows it's *us'uns*.

     

    http://bit.ly/LIvnaZ
    14 Jun 2012, 06:41 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Only north of the Mason Dixon line... And in West Virginia, and that's just because they insist on being different from Virginians.

     

    Jeff Foxworthy, who has probably made more money from maligning his forebears than any man since Mark Twain, should probably write a book on the subject (maybe he has).
    14 Jun 2012, 06:46 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    tb

     

    Point taken.
    But, I poke my nose into some TSLA and EV blogs...thinking I'm missing something.
    Many too one sided and emotional in comments.

     

    But again, good point!
    14 Jun 2012, 08:46 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    I was talking to DR that time, magounsq. But its true, I just stuck my nose in to a Tesla love fest myself...

     

    Maybe I helped someone who had doubts...

     

    Probably not.
    14 Jun 2012, 09:12 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    I was born into D then in my 20's I switched to R. In my mid 40's I switched to I and proudly walk the fence and have no opinion on anything unless I am in a position effect change and then I simply do what I feel is right regardless of the party stance. I try to avoid all the talking heads and listen to alternative news media. I listen to the weekly podcast Left/Right and Center and would gladly sample any other news source where opinions are given by equally matched people in a calm setting. Don't ask me why I decided to tell you this...
    14 Jun 2012, 09:13 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    LOL, thanks for sharing...

     

    But seriously... Thanks.
    14 Jun 2012, 09:16 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (956) | Send Message
     
    i will be reading and waiting. i need financing done or a sales event to get me back into AXPW. looking forward to details of SH meeting. i am an idea guy first, and this battery is a good idea. i want desperately for it to succeed and for the most part love what TG has done to keep the lights on.

     

    i have to make a comparative approach to the stocks i own and right now my capital serves me better elsewhere. cost basis makes a difference when considering what to sell and i think everyone's figured out i like options when i gamble.
    14 Jun 2012, 11:21 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9482) | Send Message
     
    How can yinz miss yinz? (Pittsburgheez)
    15 Jun 2012, 10:32 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >Mayascribe ... I was assigned to Pittsburgh for nearly a year, once upon a time. I just knew y'all spoke a foreign language out there in the colonies and it wasn't a speech impediment.
    15 Jun 2012, 10:50 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2282) | Send Message
     
    So does anyone have access to something better than Level II?

     

    If so, could you perhaps tell us how many total shares are bid at or above .30, and any other info of note?

     

    If you could screen capture it and put in some public place, e.g. a Public Google Doc, that would be even better. Always been curious what that looks like.

     

    Right now I see PERT PUMA AUTO ARCA ETNM NITE bid at .30 or better, but no idea how much is really there, other than it's at least 64K.
    13 Jun 2012, 01:44 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    WTB: The ETrade Pro "Time & Sales" panel shows 'em all in real time, but for some reason only shows trades on the day's historical.

     

    If you let me know early in a day I can do what you need.

     

    Be forewarned that the displays are not as clarifying as you might desire. You can't *easily* tell when a bid or ask is changed without "backtracking" through the entries. And if bids or asks are withdrawn, you can't tell at all.

     

    Regardless, it does offer a deeper look and is useful in conjunction with Level 2 ("Market Depth" panel on ET Pro).

     

    HardToLove
    13 Jun 2012, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (775) | Send Message
     
    Mercy: Gracias, lamento su partida.
    From me: Here I am and here I stay.
    Have a good day.
    Carlos.
    13 Jun 2012, 03:21 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    APM Terminals Orders Battery Lift-AGV fleet

     

    Nice application. Didn't see the battery type mentioned. Probably lithium. This would be prefect for PCB if space and mass allow inclusion based on performance metrics.

     

    http://bit.ly/L5IVyy
    13 Jun 2012, 03:35 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2282) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/Ms885r
    Seems that Maxwell has a piece of Gottwald's "cargo handling" biz:

     

    http://bit.ly/Ms885v

     

    (note from "Home," there are mulitple slides on Multiple topics; this one is from the "Power Efficiency" topic of this slide show.)
    13 Jun 2012, 04:01 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    Off-Topic (whatever the heck the topic really even is, lol):

     

    XIDE: about $3 again

     

    AONE: off big

     

    ZBB: was up big, now just up
    13 Jun 2012, 03:45 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    For those who went short AONE yesterday, my congratulations.
    13 Jun 2012, 03:48 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2422) | Send Message
     
    Concerning ZBB - I think that I may have identified the program or the trailer mounted EnerSection for forward operating bases and Homeland Security discussed on slide 15 of ZBB's latest investor presentation.

     

    In reading about a program called the REDUCE program -

     

    http://bit.ly/KG4L6Y

     

    "It is designed to be towed on a Humvee trailer. The key behind the system is the intelligent power management and distribution, as well as the plug and play capability for devices. Automatic-device detection and power distribution make it a network of power systems that is capable of adjusting based on mission demands and needs"

     

    These are all key words used by ZBB to describe their EnerSection/PECC and they were also designing a smaller version of the PECC for use at cellphone towers.

     

    I did not post this on yahoo, b/c it was just an observation.
    13 Jun 2012, 04:01 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    I find this very interesting even though I have not done any research on the topic yet.

     

    "Vauxhall Mokka has taste for business drivers"

     

    Vauxhall is a division of GM in Britain. The reason I find it interesting is because the vehicle will come with what is called a "Lifetime warranty" and it has SS. Does not appear to be any higher than a mild hybrid. So for we Axionist's the question is what is GM offering for a lifetime warranty ( I've never seen this from them before) in a standard ICE vehicle that they feel comfortable with in the area of battery tech.? Or are they just adding enough up front to take care of it?

     

    Anyway, another data point to be searched out.

     

    http://bit.ly/Nz4poU
    13 Jun 2012, 06:12 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    Interesting. They have two diesel model options, both with start/stop, but only with manual transmissions, not automatics. Would love to know the battery. I would assume AGM, but could still be flooded LA. With the price they are quoting, you can be pretty sure there isn't a Li-ion battery being used.
    13 Jun 2012, 10:01 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    "Furthermore, not covered are all service maintenance repairs and wear and tear parts. Excluded is the replacement of components that have failed due to wear and tear."

     

    http://bit.ly/NzOtCR

     

    I think the day will come when batteries will have to be covered by the automakers, but for now the name of the dance is the blame shifting shuffle.
    14 Jun 2012, 12:25 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, As expected I guess.

     

    And to make money.

     

    "The Lifetime Warranty is dependent on an annual visit of the vehicle to a Vauxhall Authorised Repairer who will activate and validate the warranty extension for another year starting from the 12 month period from registration or anniversary of registration.

     

    Activation and validation of the warranty is required every 12 months. This can only be carried out by a Vauxhall Authorised Repairer."
    14 Jun 2012, 12:47 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1483) | Send Message
     
    Batteries, windscreen wipers, and tires not under warranty, also warranty only valid if serviced at Vauxhall and only for original owner and "normal" wear and tear not covered.. If the ss fails, it's because you don't know how to drive it. Cost is up front.

     

    Interesting lifetime warranty is given to businesses who I would speculate rack up the most miles before disposing of the vehicle. If I had a vehicle with that warranty, it would be 12 years new before would even consider trading it.
    13 Jun 2012, 07:22 PM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (486) | Send Message
     
    Link below is to a NYT interview with the outgoing director of the DOE Advanced Research Projects Agency for Energy. It's pretty much what you would expect. More interesting, in the second to last para, is a link to the recent testimony of Norm Augustine of the American Energy Innovation Council and former CEO of Lockheed, before the Senate Energy Committee.

     

    In the second page of his testomony, Augustine refers to two Valleys of Death that companies with new energy-related technology face. The first relates to achieving proof of concept with a prototype, while the second relates to market level proof gained through "near commercial-scale demonstrator".

     

    He states that large funding needs and the very long time frames for energy-related development make it difficult for private sector investors to finance energy-related development, and thus there is an important role for government to play.

     

    I don't know of improving battery technology was part of his group's charter, but reading this document through an Axion-colored lense sure is frustrating. It is very clear that the government just doesn't know how to deal with a company like Axion. Augustine's reference model is that the basic science and early development take place in government entities or government-supported entities and then ideas are made available to the private sector for commercialization. Therefore, it's OK for government to pick winners and losers.

     

    "With regard to picking “winners and losers,” the government in effect does this every day at DARPA, ARPA-E, NSF, NIH, and elsewhere. The key to success under this circumstance is to maintain competition for ideas, transparency of results, and competent government employees who can weigh the options that are available—once having considered the private sector’s perspective."

     

    Stepping back from my Axion lense, the document seems pretty reasonable. Still, Axion seems to be an ant trying to get to the watering hole without being stepped on by a herd of elephants following the same path.

     

    One final irritant for me was seeing that Jeff Immelt, CEO of GE, is a member of the Council. I firmly believe that his company should be trying to buy Axion and that the CEO of Johnson Controls should be having regular nightmares over what will happen to his battery business if GE does buy Axion.

     

    http://nyti.ms/LlTifF
    14 Jun 2012, 12:20 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    I would hope to hell that EastPenn buys Axion before it fell to the craven maw of GE...
    14 Jun 2012, 02:25 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    "With regard to picking “winners and losers,” the government in effect does this every day at DARPA, ARPA-E, NSF, NIH, and elsewhere. The key to success under this circumstance is to maintain competition for ideas, transparency of results, and competent government employees who can weigh the options that are available—once having considered the private sector’s perspective."

     

    With regards to NIH, and being in research myself, I would point out that government employees don't pick what grants are funded by NIH. NIH grant committees are made up of researchers in the fields of study who are picked to be in the various review groups. They review grants both individually and then as a group and grants are scored upon their recommendations. Funding levels are decided upon by the government, and there is some back scratching funding to be sure, but for the most part it is based on peer review and not who's in office at the time.
    14 Jun 2012, 06:39 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2422) | Send Message
     
    I agree its very frustrating. I guess I have to fall back on the idea that "elephant hunting ain't easy" .... A lot of hunts may come up empty handed, but when you have a successful hunt, boy is it sweet.
    14 Jun 2012, 08:50 AM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (411) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » New concentrator up and ready.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    14 Jun 2012, 08:08 AM Reply Like
Full index of posts »
Latest Followers

StockTalks

More »

Latest Comments


Posts by Themes
Instablogs are Seeking Alpha's free blogging platform customized for finance, with instant set up and exposure to millions of readers interested in the financial markets. Publish your own instablog in minutes.