Seeking Alpha

Axion Power Host's  Instablog

Axion Power Host
Send Message
Inactive.
  • Axion Power Concentrator 115: June 15, 2012: Axion Confirms 2012 Annual Meeting Of Stockholders 215 comments
    Jun 15, 2012 2:42 PM | about stocks: AXPW

    These instablogs and the people who maintain them have no relationship whatsoever to Axion Power International. To our direct knowledge no person with a current relationship to Axion Power International other than being a shareholder participates in these instablogs.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Axion Power Shareholders' Conference: June 21, 2012

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Axion Confirms 2012 Annual Meeting of Shareholders

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Bottom Feeder's Alert: provided by JP

    I've recently learned that 2 million shares that were held by the Mega-C Shareholders Trust are being turned over to the Bankruptcy Trustee.

    The Court Order requiring the turnover of the shares was signed on June 1st. -

    dl.dropbox.com/u/26257506/6.1.12%20Turno...

    I expect the Bankruptcy Trustee to start selling as soon as the shares are deposited to his account.

    I don't expect him to be gentle and there will probably be some pushing and shoving around the pay window until the shares are sold.

    I will not be surprised if the Bankruptcy Trustee's selling puts unexpected downward pressure on the stock price. Since the order requires the shares to be delivered to the Bankruptcy Trustee's brokerage account, I do not expect the sales to show up in HTL's short tracking data.

    I have not heard back from my contacts who are trying to find out how many shares remain in the hands of other willing sellers, but I expect the Bankruptcy Trustee to create a great short-term opportunity for bottom feeders who understand where the shares are coming from and why.

    It's not often that individuals get advance notice of an opportunity to buy stock in a bankruptcy sale. Happy hunting.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Axion Power's Weighted Moving Average Price and Volume:

    (updated June 10th)

    (click to enlarge)

    Concentrator Comments: 20,000 comments surpassed on June 1st!

    (updated June 10th)

    (click to enlarge)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    LINKS to valuable Axion Power Research and websites:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites created by APC commentator Bangwhiz it is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one; including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Axion Power Website, the first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

    Axion Power Chart Tracking, HTL tracks AXPW's intra-day charting.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    WARNING: This is a troll free zone. We reserve the right to eliminate posts, or posters that are disruptive.

    Enjoy!

    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

Back To Axion Power Host's Instablog HomePage »

Instablogs are blogs which are instantly set up and networked within the Seeking Alpha community. Instablog posts are not selected, edited or screened by Seeking Alpha editors, in contrast to contributors' articles.

Comments (215)
Track new comments
  • jpau
    , contributor
    Comments (872) | Send Message
     
    Awfully strange to see 100k bid @.33 when we expect more than 2m shares to hit the market.
    15 Jun 2012, 03:11 PM Reply Like
  • FocalPoint Analytics
    , contributor
    Comments (6167) | Send Message
     
    Very strange indeed!
    15 Jun 2012, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18511) | Send Message
     
    I'm wondering ...

     

    Is there a certificate conversion required for the 2M Mega-C shares?

     

    If so, maybe they are not yet in a broker's hands and/or electronic form. That might delay their appearance on our stage?

     

    Another possibility I thought of is that the trustee is savvy about the market and wants to hold for a better price? Maybe getting advice of a good broker about the most advantageous way to do the deal?

     

    Could be angling for a big-buck block trade (inter or intra-broker?) that might not flow through the market?

     

    HardToLove
    15 Jun 2012, 05:50 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    HTL, do we know that they haven't already been flowing into the market? Perhaps it is just a trickle and not a flood? We did have a couple of high volume days...
    15 Jun 2012, 05:58 PM Reply Like
  • FocalPoint Analytics
    , contributor
    Comments (6167) | Send Message
     
    I am thinking holding for a better price. That would also be a positive. It's silly to drive a stock price down causing a rush for the exits... They will act in their own interests.
    15 Jun 2012, 06:10 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    Particularly with the annual meeting coming only next week...
    15 Jun 2012, 06:15 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    I'm holding also. I'm fairly indifferent to purchasing more, but at the right price......but, who knows, maybe that right price was yesterday.
    15 Jun 2012, 06:17 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    48, I wouldn't expect much new to come out of the annual meeting. Disclosure rules and such.

     

    But it is a great time to meet the management and get a feel for how things are progressing. That can be invaluable.
    15 Jun 2012, 06:49 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    The court order required an inter-broker transfer of the shares instead of a physical certificate delivery. That suggests the stock is already in street name.
    16 Jun 2012, 12:06 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    Shareholders meetings and plant tours provide visual information, fact confirmation, sideline conversation and other clues that can't possibly be embodied in a report, particularly for guys like Mayascribe and Amishelvis who were there last year and can compare then and now. As companies mature, annual meetings tend to morph from formalities to events. I expect this year will be an event.
    16 Jun 2012, 12:13 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    Excellent idea, woke up today thinking about the same, ask to Mayascribe do not forget to shareholders who can not go to the asamble.
    Have a good week end.
    Carlos.
    16 Jun 2012, 07:00 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    I think we can look forward to detailed reports on the meeting from several of our brethren.
    16 Jun 2012, 08:57 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18511) | Send Message
     
    Speak of the devil - that 10% somebody mentioned for next month arrived already!

     

    HardToLove
    15 Jun 2012, 03:15 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1578) | Send Message
     
    Shorts covering, taking profits?
    15 Jun 2012, 03:24 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4807) | Send Message
     
    >D Lane ... Nobody shorts an illiquid $0.30 stock
    15 Jun 2012, 03:29 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Given all that we know, this is a bit odd. Even if it is just for one day.
    15 Jun 2012, 03:18 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    My pet theory going into the weekend is that we saw the long awaited capitulation earlier in the week and missed it. Either that or folks may be filling their sock drawers in the hope that Tom will have some good things to say next Thursday.
    15 Jun 2012, 03:29 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18511) | Send Message
     
    Hah! My "daily short sales spike" is still alive! :-))

     

    HardToLove
    15 Jun 2012, 03:31 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2112) | Send Message
     
    Saab being sold to Chinese/Japanese EV concerns.
    http://cnet.co/Md3nZG
    15 Jun 2012, 03:20 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    "BMW i8 Hybrid to Cost Over €100,000"

     

    "According to BMW, the i3 is due in 2013 and will be priced “very competitively for the substance you get and following the opening of their first showroom, in London, Ian Robertson, Global Sales Chief at BMW said (about the new showroom) “it’s a further demonstration of our commitment to electro-mobility”."

     

    If he worked for Tesla he'd have tried to use the phrase Eco-mobility in there. 125 kUSD of save the planet fun. London is saved.

     

    http://bit.ly/OSJaN8
    15 Jun 2012, 03:26 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1899) | Send Message
     
    Today's price action reaffirms my complete in-ability to predict what will happen in the stock market, except perhaps, do what is the opposite of what is known and expected.
    15 Jun 2012, 03:27 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    "There is a tide in the affairs of men.
    Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
    Omitted, all the voyage of their life
    Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
    On such a full sea are we now afloat,
    And we must take the current when it serves,
    Or lose our ventures."
    15 Jun 2012, 03:51 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18511) | Send Message
     
    48: Is the short form of that "Go with the flow"? :-))

     

    HardToLove
    15 Jun 2012, 04:01 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    I had a friend, who was a descendant, and shared his far far more famous relatives name. He owned his own business in the US and in short order shortened his first name to Bill due to the numerous interactions he'd have on the phone with people that didn't know him. Some very funny stories.

     

    It brings me a great smile when I reflect back on some of our interactions so I don't dwell on the "had" portion of what I relayed.
    15 Jun 2012, 04:10 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    or as they say in Spain "Vaya con fluvia."
    15 Jun 2012, 04:20 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    More or less. Though I'm thinking also along the lines of:

     

    "If ya wanna surf, you gotta stay wet"

     

    Cowabunga!

     

    Stay thirsty my friends... ;)
    15 Jun 2012, 04:06 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    86 san,
    I've missed a lot of those floods. However, make for some good stories in my meteoric rise to mediocrity. If college basketball fan, have a couple of personal stories about Jim Valvano and Gene Keady. The Jim Valvano was just so frickin embarrasing.
    15 Jun 2012, 04:16 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Another nail in the coffin for coal.

     

    "Bloomberg, 90 other mayors support EPA Mercury Rule"

     

    http://bit.ly/Mw2Rdl
    15 Jun 2012, 04:44 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    I was expecting an after hours trade for Quercus.
    15 Jun 2012, 04:49 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    metro, I thought I'd recognized a pattern with Quercus but never went back to verify. I could swear they were stopping some of their unloading around what I'd define as sensitive events that would draw an eye from regulators. Should have followed through and looked at their form 4's around the earnings announcement dates.

     

    Probably all wet here for sure.

     

    Patterns, I see patterns. Everywhere patterns! :-P
    15 Jun 2012, 07:03 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18511) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/Kt31mL

     

    HardToLove
    16 Jun 2012, 10:33 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    "Foton to deliver 1,000 sanitation vehicles in Beijing"

     

    1.00 CNY = 0.157038 USD

     

    http://bit.ly/LT1nvj
    15 Jun 2012, 07:26 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4356) | Send Message
     
    iind > http://bit.ly/LT1nvj

     

    What's a little thing like a ton of batteries here & there?
    15 Jun 2012, 07:56 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    D-inv,

     

    Yeah, A ton here a ton there and pretty soon ya got tons of work! Not a bad place to be.

     

    I did note the other day that CBAK got a small prototype battery order from Brilliance automotive. Brilliance is a large state run Chinese automotive company. The stock didn't budge. This sector is broken for sure. Someday.

     

    http://yhoo.it/KI2VEt
    15 Jun 2012, 08:06 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    My first thoughts of the MegaC 2m shares was “arg!” Then I thought maybe Axion would buy the shares and release them for sale at the next capitol raise for a profit (assuming share value would be higher than it is today). Definitely a move to help the shareholders but also a move to encourage a more attractive PPS for the next round of financing. Now my thoughts are on the “insiders” scooping up these shares. Now that would be a move to install confidence in the existing stockholder base.

     

    Most of you know that I am more of a passenger than a driver when it comes to investing so continue to give me some slack but could the more experienced please tell me why the management is not focused a little more on the stock considering we are 6 months away from another capital raise? I would think a higher PPS than the previous would bode well with new investors. I cannot imagine investing in a stock with each new placement half the price (or there abouts) of the previous...
    15 Jun 2012, 08:57 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4807) | Send Message
     
    >Tim Enright ... Don't feel bad. I've wondered along those same lines. I know why things are the way they are and I'm not at all upset about the product side of the business. I have wondered why so little attention is paid to the public side of the business. It wouldn't take more than one person to look for, recruit ... whatever ... and "angel" investor suchas Quercus once was or hook, as iindelco put it, "some customer commitment" like a demonstration that could help pay the weigh bill along the lines of Xtreme Power & Duke Energy. Alas, that is just not the way it has been, but it does trouble me going forward.

     

    From what I see, meaningful revenue is still more than a year out. Maybe one of you meeting attendees can figure a way to gently ask about where they see finance support might come from.
    15 Jun 2012, 09:31 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1264) | Send Message
     
    Tim, i considered that question too.

     

    i could not satisfy myself with the notion management expected news to positively impact share price. but that's an option.

     

    management could already have new investors locked up and be finalizing a deal, or have worked with the investors before.

     

    they could have terms that raise capital through licensing or production guarantees.

     

    i have no doubt the issue will be brought up before the fund raise, and TG's remarks on the issue are what matters most.
    15 Jun 2012, 09:31 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, hopefully these questions (and others) will get answered without having to ask. I am looking forward to meeting the team and hearing their strategy first hand...
    16 Jun 2012, 09:25 AM Reply Like
  • rastros
    , contributor
    Comments (41) | Send Message
     
    I'm driving over from Pittsburgh and will be happy to gently ask a question (feel free to suggest the specific wording).

     

    Is there a list of people from this blog who are attending? I may have missed that.
    15 Jun 2012, 10:08 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4807) | Send Message
     
    >rastros ... Mayascribe has an instablog for the meeting. You might peruse the people posting over there.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    15 Jun 2012, 10:14 PM Reply Like
  • rastros
    , contributor
    Comments (41) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, DRich
    I see there's no need for me to ask anything--with the heavy hitters who will be attending!
    15 Jun 2012, 11:41 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    One page article in the June issue of Railway Age.

     

    http://bit.ly/KAQiQp

     

    Courtesy of our friends at Rosewater.
    16 Jun 2012, 12:32 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Sorry John. I'm unimpressed.

     

    Not a good job. I want TG to deliver the message not Rosewater.

     

    Did I say I'm really not impressed?

     

    Where the hell is Mr.Dantam. Ugh. He needs to manage the corporate message and the public message as well. Rosewater is talking more than Axion.

     

    I'm starting to think Mr. Dantam still thinks he works for old GM.

     

    Sorry. I'm disappointed thus far with their new front man.
    16 Jun 2012, 01:38 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    Many thanks JP

     

    Seems to include a bit more positive detail than we've had before... though I can't help but notice what looks like an effort to keep from breaking and therefore, making, news concerning the follow-on OTR machine: "NS is *considering* equipping this road locomotive with PbC batteries..."

     

    What do you make of it John?
    16 Jun 2012, 01:43 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    I got my copy from one of the guys at Rosewater.

     

    The interview and the article originated with Axion and while Railway Age isn't a big seller in the Quick Mart, it is read by all the people Axion wants to talk to in the rail industry.
    16 Jun 2012, 01:53 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    I believe the OTR locomotive is in the bag, but it's not a signed, sealed and delivered deal yet. That means you have to throw in a weasel word or two, otherwise somebody could accuse you of lying.

     

    My fondest hope is that Tom will soon be able to lay out a vision of how he sees the NS relationship developing over the next couple years and how the other big railroads will fit into that landscape.

     

    A couple locomotives are decent business for Axion, but with a national fleet of ±25,000 locomotives operated by the four big roads, it will take several hundred units to convince regulators that the railroads are sincere about assessing the potential of battery-powered switchers and hybrid trains.

     

    Anything less than a statistically valid sample will be rightly dismissed as greenwash.
    16 Jun 2012, 02:06 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Understood. But Rosewater doesn't manage the rail, automotive or military aspects of Axion's business.

     

    Is Rosewater their managing entity or is it their new second highest paid person?

     

    I want Mr. Dantum to find/manage the ears in industry and in the public domain for their controlled interest.

     

    If I'm wrong I'm sorry. If not make suggestions appropriately.
    16 Jun 2012, 02:06 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    I think we may be talking past each other on this issue. Axion got a great article in Railway Age that said for the first time that the PbC can handle charging loads of up to 200 Amps – twice the number we've seen and heard in prior reports of test results.

     

    For better or worse, an article like that is not something Axion can disseminate in a press release, although I'm sure their marketing group distributed copies to every potential customer – including Rosewater.

     

    The guys at Rosewater got a copy of the article, presumably from Axion, and they sent it to me. Since I believed the Axionistas might consider a 200-Amp charge rate important, I posted the article where everybody could download it.

     

    I think this is fabulous news. If you go back to the Thelen presentation last fall, slide 34 shows what the captured DB energy was at 100 Amps, and it also showed the additional DB energy that was lost at 100 Amps. At a 200 to 220 Amp charge rate, the PbC will be scraping the bottom of the barrel and absorbing all the DB energy the mechanism can throw at it.

     

    http://bit.ly/L2I2bT

     

    We always believed that the PbC had twice the DCA of a new AGM battery. Now we learn it's more like four times the DCA. Those kinds of performance differences matter.
    16 Jun 2012, 02:32 AM Reply Like
  • 23808
    , contributor
    Comments (87) | Send Message
     
    JP
    Thank you for sharing the fabulous news with us. However, Axion should have provided this information to the stock holders or potential buyers of this stock. In addition, they should have someone publish a technical paper on the results of their test. This type of information will help people to decide whether to buy this stock.,especially people that are interested in the performance of this battery.
    16 Jun 2012, 10:05 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    The 200 amp information is very new, but it may be the kind of performance spec Tom can only mention in passing.

     

    The Ford BMW stop-start testing protocol requires recharging at 100 amps after the hotel load. Since the Thelen presentation from last fall indicated that railroad regenerative braking loads frequently hit 200 amps, it wouldn't surprise me to find that NS used a protocol that includes 200 amp charge rates for a portion of the cycles.

     

    Mentioning 200 amps in passing may not be a problem for Tom. Discussing or heaven forbid publishing the details of a proprietary NS testing regime probably would be.

     

    Every corporate PR decision involves a tradeoff between making the stockholders happy or keeping the customers happy. While I'd love to know more, I don't want to know at the expense of good customer relationships.
    16 Jun 2012, 10:25 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18511) | Send Message
     
    I still *love* slide 34!

     

    Doesn't matter to me how it gets out - just as long as it gets out.

     

    HardToLove
    16 Jun 2012, 11:07 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    In my mind it's a tossup between slide 34 of the Thelen presentation and slide 6 of this Barbee presentation.

     

    http://bit.ly/JXgnI0

     

    Thelen said the PbC worked great in their application.

     

    Barbee said NiMH, LiFePO4, Zebra, Fuel Cells, the Ultrabattery and lead-acid traction batteries from Hitachi were tested and rejected.

     

    A win is always nice, but the winner feels best when he knows who he had to beat to grab the gold.
    16 Jun 2012, 11:18 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Just to follow up. Axion has an investors page where it would be advantageous to place these types of industry published articles. They have a section where they do some of this now titled "Company Highlights". If they wish not to muddy the water and prioritize more I've seen companies with a "In the news tab" as well.

     

    Just for quick ref. their investors page.

     

    http://bit.ly/Hfv7fu

     

    As you've indicated the more famous phrase applies. " I don't care what they say about me as long as they mention my name". (I think that's close to the correct wording.)

     

    But really, in the case you provided, there is what Axionista's would consider material information. And don't prospective clients that they haven't contacted yet go to the web page?

     

    They have at least 4 person's managing some level of their marketing. Sooooooo. Well, I've beat this to death. :)

     

    http://linkd.in/xlWKbd

     

    http://linkd.in/Il2z5C

     

    http://linkd.in/MamveV

     

    http://linkd.in/MfaXoN
    16 Jun 2012, 12:10 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    I checked this morning and that particular article wasn't available on the Railway Age website. Without web availability, there's no way to create a "fair use" link under the copyright laws.

     

    Posting a PDF like I did is clearly outside the fair use doctrine but I don't figure any Axionistas will rat me out. I can get away with that kind of thing and pull the PDF if Railway Age objects.

     

    It would be far more problematic for Axion to take that risk.
    16 Jun 2012, 12:31 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    That's true. Hadn't thought of that.
    16 Jun 2012, 12:49 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    The last thing I want to do is defend Axion's communications abilities and competence. Hell, if they'd been good at communication I wouldn't have had a chance to become a blogging legend in my own mind.

     

    I understand that Axion's communication sucks. I also understand why it sucks. It seems to be endemic across the entire lead-acid sector. Between customers who insist on absurd levels of secrecy and competitors who are always on the attack, manufacturers are afraid to stick their head out of the foxhole.

     

    In a way it's sad that I've become the clearest and strongest voice the industry has. It's good for the select few who've been reading me for a long time, but terrible for the hundreds of millions who never get the message.
    16 Jun 2012, 01:09 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (997) | Send Message
     
    John

     

    Additionally, not the easiest sector for investors to understand.
    Add to that the politics of the EV.

     

    If I didn't have the good fortune of "finding" your articles and the "luxury" of having the time the past year + to read, learn and comprehend (as best on non techie can)...AND the good fortune of your tutelage, along with Rick et al, I would be on the outside looking in or at least on the outside.
    16 Jun 2012, 06:30 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (997) | Send Message
     
    John

     

    "My fondest hope is that Tom will soon be able to lay out a vision of how he sees the NS relationship developing over the next couple years and how the other big railroads will fit into that landscape."

     

    Now THAT would shake things up...IMO.
    16 Jun 2012, 06:32 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4356) | Send Message
     
    JP > "I checked this morning and that particular article wasn't available on the Railway Age website. Without web availability, there's no way to create a "fair use" link under the copyright laws."

     

    Seems to me it would be worth the time of a Senior VP, Business Development and Marketing, to explore/negotiate a fairly valued use license with the article's copyright holder and post the article on Axion's website.
    16 Jun 2012, 09:29 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    I did some more surfing around the Railway Age website and they don't even have the June issue of the magazine up yet. It will get there, but this article is apparently fresh off the press.

     

    If the article had a March, April or even a May date and we were just learning about it now, there might be room to complain. It's not reasonable for anybody to complain that Axion hasn't done enough to publicize ink that's barely dry.
    17 Jun 2012, 12:29 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    There are some jewels in the article:

     

    "the charge acceptance rate, at 100 to 200 amps"

     

    Didn't know the PbC could have a charge acceptance of 200 amps. The BMW protocol was for 100 amps. That appears huge to me. Would there be tradeoffs (i.e. energy or power) if ramping charge acceptance from 100 to 200 amps, or is that just a static number inherent to the PbC?

     

    and regarding the road locomotive:
    "It will probably be deployed as one-unit of a three unit-consist."

     

    I think there has been speculation on layout, and although "probable" is used, would guess this is strong hint on what NS is thinking.
    16 Jun 2012, 02:01 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    Automaker testing has always been limited by the capacity of their battery lab test equipment. Since there's never been a lead-acid battery that could handle more than 100 amps, none of the automakers have equipment that that runs at higher power.

     

    I've always heard that the PbC could stand up to higher charge rates than the automakers could test for, but without a clear statement from Axion I didn't want to climb out on a limb and guess *how much higher* Frankly, I still don't.

     

    Iindelco can probably provide more color, but I think charging efficiency starts to fall off when charging rates get too high. At this point it's not entirely clear to me whether 200 Amps would be pushing the envelope or not.

     

    In any event, it's nice to have confirmation that higher amperage loads than we've heard about so far aren't a big stretch because that's a critical metric if you really want to push regenerative braking and other Gen2 micro-hybrid advances.
    16 Jun 2012, 02:19 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    I wish we had more info on this. A higher charge acceptance, and if coupled with same energy/power/cycles would have very positive marketing and sales implications - IMHO. It certainly would be a USP that would separate us from that other lead acid rabble - at least for some applications.

     

    John, my focus as well with this information is on the micro-hybrid application.
    16 Jun 2012, 02:30 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2455) | Send Message
     
    >metro: There is always a tradeoff on efficiency as you ramp the charge/discharge rate. Current flow produces heat. That is described by:

     

    I x I x R = heat

     

    R is the series impedance of the cells and can be taken as a constant for this example. I is the current into or out of the cells. If you double I and R stays constant, the power lost to heat in the cells goes up as the square of the current ( I ). That is, you lose 4 times as much energy as heat at 200A then you do at 100A.

     

    There are other efficiency limiting mechanisms in batteries. Electrochemistry is never easy.
    16 Jun 2012, 02:32 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    Sure wish we knew more about our "R" ....

     

    And fwiw, I would definitely expect some degree of non-linear behavior with this beast. Hopefully it's good. ;)
    16 Jun 2012, 02:44 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    thanks shb
    16 Jun 2012, 02:48 AM Reply Like
  • BugEYE
    , contributor
    Comments (195) | Send Message
     
    metro:

     

    Kirk Tierney commented in the previous concentrator on the comparison of NiZn and Pbc, "NiZn has a gas generation problem at high charge speeds, without a gas recombination mechanism of worth. This is a 1C battery technology in reality. PbC in the mid range (20 to 80% SOC) can handle 5C easily and in fact I've seen then eat up 15C regimes."

     

    And NS use 12 volts 60ah or 70ah PbCs which have much larger charge acceptance than BMW's 16 volts 40ah type.

     

    5C of a 60 ah PbC are 300 amps. And normally engineers do not intend to push battery to that end because of various reasons. Therefore I am not at all surprised by the report.
    16 Jun 2012, 03:53 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    Another gem:
    ..has plans to expand to 75.000 square feet to manufacture up to 3.000 PbC batteries per day.
    The article writes batteries and do not type electrodes.
    It seems that many interesting things will be heard next June 21.
    Nice article.
    Carlos.
    16 Jun 2012, 07:27 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2961) | Send Message
     
    I am pretty sure there would be some tradeoffs charging at 200 amps. In the same way power vs energy is a tradeoff between plate area and mass, I would think rapid charging leads towards more area relative to mass. I also think there could be some mighty thermal issues.

     

    My calculation estimates about a theoretical 10 minute 0-100% charge, which seems impossibly fast. All the Li-x blather about future rapid recharge EVs is 10-80% in 30 minutes, so (if my math is correct) the PbC can recharge about 4.2 times faster. Another comparison is that East Penn's fastest recommended charging rate for gels and AGMs (not the Ultrabattery) is 3.5 hours for 0-90%. Corrections by a battery engineer encouraged.

     

    Even if the full top end rate is not possible, a 0-90% charge in 15 minutes is still breathtakingly fast. The internal resistance must be very low to prevent electrolyte destruction (battery damage).
    16 Jun 2012, 07:42 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    I think the writer may have goofed there because the main battery plant is 75,000 feet and the electrode plant is 50,000. Since Axion leases both facilities, it wouldn't want to expand either of them.
    16 Jun 2012, 09:12 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    The resistance charts in the PbC Whitepaper (page 7) show a very low resistance plateau between 7 and 11 volts, with increasing resistance at top and bottom of charge. Perhaps they'll help refine your thinking.

     

    http://bit.ly/LV29Yz
    16 Jun 2012, 09:18 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2297) | Send Message
     
    So according to figure 13 in that paper, the sweet spot for high amperage charging to recover braking energy is the partial state of charge around 10 volts. In that range of 8-11V the impedance is lowest, so the heat generation from high current charging is minimized.

     

    I can just imagine all those little carbon pores slurping up electrons.
    16 Jun 2012, 09:42 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    ... all 500 acres of them.
    16 Jun 2012, 10:28 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    BugEYE,
    I did some research on the CA of different battery chemistrys a while ago and was thinking the PbC being described as an ultracapacitor was a little bit of hype. Sure it had a CA of 100 amps, but other LA batteries were achieving 60-80 - albeit that was on the 47th cycle of an 80 degree day with 30 percent humidity and 2.2 bars of barometric pressure and then battery performance significantly degraded from there. This news of 200-300 amps and more seems it could be really significant for adoption. Excuse my enthusiasm for this good news. I guess this means price goes down.
    Haven't heard from Lafferty for awhile and he was doing some research on CA, he should be excited about this news as well.
    16 Jun 2012, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    With any luck one of our brethren will try and drill down a bit deeper into the charge acceptance issue in a side conversation. We knew about 100 amps. We've seen a reference to 200 amps. Dare we hope for more?
    16 Jun 2012, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2961) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the link, JP. I haven't done the math yet, but it certainly disproves my theoretical 0-100% charge in ten minutes. My gut said my interpretation was impossibly fast, and it is.

     

    Still, 200 amps over only a portion of the acceptance range is a strong accomplishment.
    16 Jun 2012, 12:56 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    It beats the heck out of a C/10 charge rate.
    16 Jun 2012, 01:11 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    just to put a rough number on it:

     

    Ohms units equals Joules-seconds / Coulombs ^2

     

    From the white paper graph... call the sweet spot range 5 milli-ohms

     

    heat power = I x I x R

     

    So at 100 amps (Coulombs per second)

     

    We get 10,000 (Coulombs/sec)^2 x 0.005 (joules-sec / Coulombs ^2)

     

    = 50 joules / second = 50 Watts goes into heating.. So charging the PbC at 100 amps at 10 Volts (which is 1 Kilowatt input power) loses 50 watts to heat or 5% ... but the good news is that at such high charge rates, the duration of each charge isn't that long, so actual total heat generated per cycle shouldn't be too bad...

     

    Obviously very rough calcs, appreciate all corrections...
    16 Jun 2012, 01:46 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2297) | Send Message
     
    Using your rough numbers, the NS999 string of 52 batteries would be putting out 2600W of heat if charged at 100A. Like a hair dryer set on high.

     

    But put 200A into it and you quadruple the heat generated. Now you are into small oven output of 10000W. You could roast hot dogs or a chicken for the engineers with that.
    16 Jun 2012, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    By the time you spread that heat through a space big enough to hold 52 batteries with headroom and racking, it's probably not that bad.
    16 Jun 2012, 03:04 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    If I remember correctly part of the work Penn State was doing was quantifying the importance of the racking in the various test systems. As you can imagine it's not to be ignored.
    16 Jun 2012, 03:31 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    iindelco,
    I'm guessing that racking does not just entail spacing distance and numbers of rows and columns. What other considerations would need to be made in a racking system. Thanks.
    16 Jun 2012, 03:39 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Metro. I don't have access to their findings but as you suggest efficient spacing for air flow is a consideration. And it's not just uniform spacing. It needs to be designed such that the air flow is understood based on where the exhaust fans and vents will be timed to assure appropriate air flow. The air flow shouldn't be uniform because based on where the batteries are positioned in the string and in the enclosure the heat generation is not uniform. They would want to model it and then follow up with thermocouples to verify their modeling. This might in fact be one reason why we see the order to Axion with a split expenditure. 400 kUSD for batteries and the balance for build and test support (I'd bet money on it).

     

    BTW, The racks also wants to be set up to make sure the strings are wired in the most efficient manner (less resistance less heat). In addition access for testing and maintenance need to be considered. Maintenance might be different for Northeastern high humidity vs Texas Dust/temperature vs coastal salt etc. For the PBC it might just be for the removal of conductive grime mostly. But still their will be infant mortalities perhaps.

     

    Then of coarse there is a high load to manage from the weight and shock/vibration considerations (That's why auto batteries with their tire/spring/shock absorbers are different than what is considered for marine batteries). In addition how the battery is supported needs to be taken into consideration based on the expected forces to be exerted.

     

    Not sure if they are using any level of heat sinking properties from the racking.

     

    http://bit.ly/KQGI5p

     

    Oh, and they can't forget to take the obvious being the altitude the locomotives will function at as the efficiency drops with increased altitude.

     

    I'm sure there is more but this gives you a flavor for what is going into their design considerations. (And price shhhh).
    16 Jun 2012, 04:42 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2455) | Send Message
     
    481: Just an observation.
    Supplying a 100% charge to a 1kWh battery at 100A will take 1 hour (hand waving going on here ;-). You have basically described a 1C charge rate. That gives the 50W of heat input lots of battery mass to absorb and spread it. Heat can conduct away fast enough to prevent hot spots and other problems.

     

    Note that if you want to charge your battery in 15 minutes, the power lost as heat in the battery is: 400Amps (squared) times 5 milliohms. OR:

     

    1.6E5 Amps(squared) x 5E-3 Ohms = 8E2 Watts, or 800W

     

    Which is why it is difficult to design a battery that will take a full charge from a low state of charge at a 4C rate. Not only does the chemistry have to move right along but the heat has to be removed continuously at an 800W rate. That means smaller batteries with cooled metal plates sandwiched between them. Or submerging the batteries in a coolant liquid that is pump circulated to a heat exchanger.

     

    Now think of driving up an inclined road, pulling 60-80kW from the battery pack.

     

    It should now be obvious why Tesla and others have make their battery package out of thousands of small cylindrical cells, submerged in liquid.
    16 Jun 2012, 05:38 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    thanks iindelco
    16 Jun 2012, 06:47 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4356) | Send Message
     
    SMat > "Using your rough numbers, the NS999 string of 52 batteries would be putting out 2600W of heat if charged at 100A. Like a hair dryer set on high."

     

    Minor point, but keeping numbers straight can become important. The article refers to 54 batteries per string vice 52 so the heat output would become 2700W.
    16 Jun 2012, 09:41 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4356) | Send Message
     
    BE > "Kirk Tierney commented in the previous concentrator on the comparison of NiZn and Pbc, 'NiZn has a gas generation problem at high charge speeds, without a gas recombination mechanism of worth. This is a 1C battery technology in reality. PbC in the mid range (20 to 80% SOC) can handle 5C easily and in fact I've seen then eat up 15C regimes.'"

     

    Question for the technically competent contingent. What does '15C' charge rate imply in terms of amp acceptance rate?
    16 Jun 2012, 09:52 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4356) | Send Message
     
    JP > "The resistance charts in the PbC Whitepaper (page 7) show a very low resistance plateau between 7 and 11 volts, with increasing resistance at top and bottom of charge. "

     

    11 volts strikes me as very interesting at the moment. The Railway Age article includes the statement, "NS'S string configuration is 54 batteries per string, which provides at least 600 volts for traction motors." Is it coincidental that "at least 600v out of 54 batteries --> 11.11111V per PbC?
    16 Jun 2012, 10:01 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    C-rate is basically like this... if you have a 1 amp-hour battery, charging it at 1 amps is 1C rate... charging it at 15 amps is 15C rate...
    16 Jun 2012, 10:01 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2297) | Send Message
     
    Two PbC batteries, that is critical! It is probably about 2000 shares of AXPW at the moment. How could I have made such an error?

     

    Now I shall obsess over my math for weeks!
    16 Jun 2012, 10:10 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    I don't believe in coincidences once the engineers get involved. The NS 999 is being reconfigured to take optimal advantage of the PbC's strengths while accommodating its weaknesses. That's what the guys who design these kinds of systems for a living do.
    17 Jun 2012, 12:39 AM Reply Like
  • jlyleluce
    , contributor
    Comments (260) | Send Message
     
    Nice conclusion that makes a lot of sense to me now D-inv - these calculations, what may appear obvious for the tech types, don't come easy for us non-tech types. thanks.
    17 Jun 2012, 01:08 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    Fascinating development – JCI has recently added a new 12-volt "performance battery charger" to it's product line up.

     

    "The new OPTIMA Chargers Digital 1200 12V Performance Battery Charger and Maintainer enhances the performance of OPTIMA and other high performance AGM batteries, recovers deeply discharged batteries and extends battery life."

     

    http://bit.ly/M1wX6q

     

    Could this be the *fix* for stop-start systems that are deployed before better stop-start batteries like the PbC are widely available?
    16 Jun 2012, 03:09 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Your link doesn't seem to work.
    I think this is your link at optimabatteries:

     

    http://bit.ly/LS4wui

     

    If this is the fix, not very handy for apartment dwellers. Also, I'm guessing many people share my lack of enthusiasm for dealing with car batteries. Dealers will be able to charge a nice price for reconditioning batteries and that service probably will become another charge on the scheduled maintenance.
    16 Jun 2012, 09:42 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1927) | Send Message
     
    The link worked for me. It is $199 and I will bet it works about as well as steel-wool and coke poured on corroded battery terminals.
    16 Jun 2012, 09:47 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Perhaps a better link...

     

    http://bit.ly/LS4wui

     

    It does have a conditioning mode and is a multi-stage charger. If I had need for a single battery charger, I would definitely give this charger a try...
    16 Jun 2012, 10:14 AM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10768) | Send Message
     
    JP: From the more mystic or shamanic side of Mayascribe~~~ooooo!

     

    You know my 3 generation history with JCI, how my grandpop told Abraham Lincoln's grandson to buy a company called Universal Wire and Spring. How that company invented the zig zag spring that eventually was used in Jeep seats and other vehicle seats in WWII, how that company then became Hoover Ball and Bearing, and then eventually evolved into a Fortune 500 company named Johnson Controls.

     

    Before the Lehman Bros. disaster, because of all the splits over time, my family ended up with a little bit of JCI, which, us kids, in my mother's final years, had to sell most of it well ahead of the March 09' lows.

     

    I think my grandpop is up there in the great ethreal cloud smiling...knowing that someday his grandson would meet some lawyer from Switzerland, whom he would butt heads with about some pipsqueak battery outfit, that would eventually team up with JCI, and do for his grandson, what Universal Wire & Spring, what Hoover Ball and Bearing, and then what JCI did for him.

     

    That for me, would be a particularly satisfying outcome, almost surreal, almost unbelievable. Most certainly a pretty damned neat fractal or "zig zag" derivative of Universal Design to the "Cycles of the Ancient Maya."

     

    I'm hoping it is my destiny. And Axion Power's, too.
    16 Jun 2012, 10:26 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Here's a link for the 199 USD offer. They also offer a 25 USD battery rebate for when you get tired of recharging your battery once a week and want a 6 month break.

     

    http://bit.ly/KahW0w?
    16 Jun 2012, 10:30 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    I think it's absolutely fascinating that JCI is coming out with branded chargers for their top of the line spiral wound AGM batteries. I have to say though, it'll be a while before Axion's big enough to acquire JCI.
    16 Jun 2012, 10:48 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Maya,

     

    Aren't you wondering also how your destiny has become linked with a neanderthal's?
    16 Jun 2012, 12:55 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1899) | Send Message
     
    Ja-

     

    I love it. I buy a $35,000 auto for my family and then every night I get to open the hood and hook up the battery cables because it sparks and scares the cr.. out of my other family members.

     

    When I ask them to attend, yet another, class on trickle charging the new car's battery, my wife gives me the evil eye and asks, again, WTF was I thinking when I bought this car.
    16 Jun 2012, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10768) | Send Message
     
    Metro:

     

    Time to rip the cork out of the genetic bottleneck ;-0

     

    (juz' kidding)
    16 Jun 2012, 04:43 PM Reply Like
  • BugEYE
    , contributor
    Comments (195) | Send Message
     
    Charging an already badly sulfated battery using small current for an extended period could improve its performance and recovery some loss but not all. This kind of method has been used for decades.

     

    Actually last year I considered OEMs could implement such a system in a S/S car then I dropped that idea because of costs and technical complexity normal customers would never understand.
    16 Jun 2012, 08:46 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    Earlier this year I spoke at a partners' conference for a company out of Sweden that makes small after-market battery chargers for home use. They're literally drooling over the business bump they expect from people who decide to get a home charger for their new ss equipped vehicles.
    17 Jun 2012, 12:42 AM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1915) | Send Message
     
    Fractals? You must watch TED
    17 Jun 2012, 01:44 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    With 200 amp. I think the comment below has more validity.

     

    •Siliconhillbilly Comments (1143)
    And now, a break for something purely techno-geek.
    After some pondering, I believe the concept of adding an electrically powered supercharger, combined with an exhaust driven turbo-supercharger, is a winner.
    The only reason for having any auto engine over 1 liter or so is to produce the torque needed to accelerate for freeway entry and road passing. Hybrids add a large electric motor to gain that capability, along with a 1-2kWh battery.
    There is also a substantial amount of heavy mechanical hardware needed to accommodate the motor in the form of gears and clutches and etc.
    Adding an electric supercharger to the engine package is conceptually and mechanically simpler. Its purpose is to quickly increase the engine power by at least 50% for the 3-10 seconds needed either to accelerate the car and/or to allow the turbo-supercharger to come up to speed and take over the boosting task.
    If the electric supercharger is only going to be used for a few seconds at a time it can be designed such that heat builds up (is stored) in the metal structure rather than being cooled at "steady state" conditions. I call this "inertial cooling". It allows a substantially smaller and simpler motor. It would include a temperature sensing system to prevent it from being damaged by unusual situations.
    This concept allows a smaller ICE that can run at 60-100% of load (without boost) 99% of the time. Turbo-supercharging technology is decades old and very mature.
    We know this basic idea works because of a high miles/gallon concept car that has recently been demonstrated. My memory fails me on who build the car.
    Needless to say, the electric supercharger would require lots of energy for a short time. 20kW or more wouldn't surprise me. But a 42V PbC supplying 500A would do the job, thanks to its capacitor like power capability. Remember 20kW for 10 seconds is 56 Wh. That could be a relatively small 42V PbC battery.
    Seems a cheaper and faster way to 50 miles/gallon compared to the rather expensive "heavy hybrid". Although it doesn't include inertial energy recovery, that could be added at some level, possibly with an enlarged alternator/starter already used in S-S designs.
    1 Jun, 02:42 PM

     

    Supplemented with the following concept from: apmarshall62 Comments (77)

     

    ...While PbC in a stop-start application isn't make or break (as we can see with short-lived AGM batteries), it would be in an application such as you describe that dramatically scales down the size of the engine. In that case, you really want to essentially redesign the car around the battery.

     

    I will be very lost?
    Carlos.
    16 Jun 2012, 07:42 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4356) | Send Message
     
    Carlos > "I will be very lost?"

     

    :-) Certainly does not sound lost to me. If so, you have company.
    17 Jun 2012, 12:27 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1927) | Send Message
     
    Metro,

     

    I always knew you had a deep artistic sophistication --

     

    http://reut.rs/LOLpjt
    16 Jun 2012, 09:35 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2434) | Send Message
     
    "California high-speed rail officials still aiming for 2012 construction launch"

     

    http://bit.ly/Kanyry

     

    Pretty long article about "the road" ... looking back and forward. Lots (but surely not all) of lessons learned and concerns addressed, but I don't know if it will, can, or should happen. Surely there's at least one interesting book in here if nothing else. It's amazing how many moving parts there are to these projects ... on all sorts of levels.
    16 Jun 2012, 11:20 AM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10768) | Send Message
     
    WTB: Not long ago, I read that CA voters were well more than half against this idiotic high speed railway...which, likely will be made in France, or China. This article also shows strong opposition.

     

    Another one of Voldemorte's losing propositions.

     

    Part of this high speed railway, the part that takes you to Las Vegas, you have to drive a third of the way to from LA to Vegas, to board the train that takes you the rest of the way. Ridiculous.
    16 Jun 2012, 11:54 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    I've vented on this before. It's a ridiculous project, of questionable utility, that my profoundly dysfunctional state cannot afford in any sense. Calif at present cannot afford its prisons, schools, universities, politicians, administrators, pensions, benefits, roads, social programs, infrastructure and health care... the bitter clinging of the elite to such things as this fantastic useless high-speed rail project is both symptom and cause, but as long as it lives, you'll know that Calif is still in denial. The day this silly project goes down is the first glimmer of hope, because no one is serious about anything until nonsense like this is jettisoned. And plenty will be. Calif has a rendezvous with reality on the calendar, coming sooner or later, and reality's bringing an ass whuppin' with it.
    16 Jun 2012, 01:21 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Maybe Maria Shriver would have been a better governator. She knows how to terminate things quickly when they are painful.
    16 Jun 2012, 01:38 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13565) | Send Message
     
    48: I hope you are not a homeowner... Or worse yet, operate a business there.
    16 Jun 2012, 01:42 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    Homestead owner. I'm standing ground or going down with the enterprise. I'll be living on slingshot-killed squirrels, acorns, and creek water, if that's what it takes, before I'll be driven out of here...
    16 Jun 2012, 01:58 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13565) | Send Message
     
    Survivalism... I respect that.

     

    Someone's got to rebuild after the moonbeam apocalypse.
    16 Jun 2012, 01:59 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Don't chase em' 48. Let em' come to you'uns.

     

    http://bit.ly/KJKmQp
    16 Jun 2012, 02:14 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    excellent! I'll lay up a stock of that directly.. ;)
    btw, thanks to you and JP for all the AGM case info from a couple of apc's back...
    16 Jun 2012, 02:21 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    I liked the demonstration of the "high intensity sprayer".
    16 Jun 2012, 02:22 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, particularly to a neanderthal.
    16 Jun 2012, 02:28 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4807) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... You might want to rethink that

     

    Neanderthals smarter than previously believed

     

    http://bit.ly/KJMTdt
    16 Jun 2012, 02:38 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    They used Metro's picture for that article! I'll bet they didn't pay him or get his consent or anything.

     

    Do you think neanderthals engaged in nuisance litigation?
    16 Jun 2012, 02:44 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    Oh Absolutely. In fact it was the founding firm of Grok, Lumpem, and Club which started the whole industry..

     

    I betch Metro still gets a tiny residual from the original trust... ;)
    16 Jun 2012, 02:50 PM Reply Like
  • rgholbrook
    , contributor
    Comments (116) | Send Message
     
    And what a great head of hair.......
    16 Jun 2012, 02:53 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    I had that glamour shot made a few years ago and it's now part of the public domain. Hair is a little grayer now, but otherwise still the same.
    16 Jun 2012, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    It's good to know that vanity is not a new thing, relatively speaking.
    16 Jun 2012, 03:05 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    jakurtz:
    Several years ago, after not having kept up with any of my fraternity brothers from a small Kansas college, I picked up a copy of Architectural Digest - and rarely do so - and coincidentally my former roommate's house was featured in the small town of Plainville, Kansas.

     

    Lightning strikes twice now that uncle Ugg's living room appears in a Reuter's story.
    16 Jun 2012, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2434) | Send Message
     
    Couple more railroad odds and ends (and more directly linked to NS-999 competitors):

     

    "The Railserve LEAF® Gen-Set Locomotive"
    http://bit.ly/LcsX5K

     

    "Railserve is a Marmon Group/Berkshire Hathaway company"

     

    (and Berkshire owns the Burlington Northern)

     

    Video: http://bit.ly/Kar59h

     

    "Ten reasons why you should switch to the Railserve LEAF® Gen-Set Locomotive" http://bit.ly/LcsX5M

     

    Union Pacific Start-Stop:
    "Automatic Stop-Start Systems

     

    All new locomotives now feature automatic stop-start systems to eliminate unnecessary idling. UP also is retrofitting older locomotives with the systems and more than 70 percent of the locomotive fleet now is outfitted with the equipment."
    http://bit.ly/Kar317

     

    I am reminded that ICE cars are continually raising the bar that EVs must compete against.
    16 Jun 2012, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    Nice thing about the locomotive markets is that there's plenty of business to support vendors of both OEM products like the Railserve LEAF® and the GE Evolution Hybrid and retrofit systems like the NS 999 and the planned OTR locomotives.

     

    The retrofit market won't last forever, but for the next several years those 24,000 problems that can't be quickly, easily or cheaply replaced with new hardware represent a healthy revenue opportunity.
    16 Jun 2012, 12:05 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Found this 2011 sustainability report for UP that gives some additional detail on their SS system. There's that lower temperature cutoff point again. Need to see if they are using lead acid. Looks like it. But some of this might have to do with other component requirements in the locomotive as well.

     

    "Reduced engine idling

     

    Locomotive engines may be kept idling for several
    reasons: in a yard, they idle between work events; on the
    main line, they idle while meeting or passing other trains;
    in cold temperatures, they idle to keep their fuel and
    water lines from freezing. Union Pacific has developed a
    comprehensive plan to reduce the amount of time
    locomotive engines idle.
    As a part of this strategy, all new locomotives have
    automatic Stop-Start equipment and older locomotives
    are being retrofitted with it, which eliminates unnecessary
    idling. Locomotive shutdowns can save 15-24 gallons
    of fuel, per locomotive, per day.
    More than 70 percent of our locomotive fleet is equipped
    with this technology. Generally, Union Pacific’s locomotive
    shutdown rules reduce emissions and also save fuel.
    Locomotives are to be shut down if left standing 15
    minutes or longer, unless the temperature is expected
    to drop below 35 degrees."

     

    http://bit.ly/KJG3EA
    16 Jun 2012, 01:24 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    Speaking of ICE cars and raising the bar, here's a pretty good, quick article on mainstream non-hybrid (or SS) 40mpg offerings...

     

    http://yhoo.it/NG50oR

     

    Notice they all show decrements in mileage performance between measured steady state and real-world driving. That, to me, would seem to be exploitable space for micro-hybrid and hybrid enhancements, if the initial price deltas can be tamed...
    16 Jun 2012, 02:32 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Thanks 48.

     

    That was interesting. I was surprised by the Jetta (diesel vs gas). But I'd really need to look more at things like mass and usable space to be fair. Still gas powered ICE's are, as pointed out by many here, coming along well. Of coarse with the millions of other improvements as well.
    16 Jun 2012, 03:15 PM Reply Like
  • Tampa Ted
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    Here is a new PbC technology summary from the Rosewater website ... it appears to have been posted earlier this week.

     

    http://bit.ly/Maup86
    16 Jun 2012, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    PbC® Battery Features
    "- 10-20x higher charge acceptance than lead-acid batteries

     

    - 5-10x faster recharge in partial state-of-charge (PSOC)
    applications compared to lead acid batteries

     

    - Significantly faster recharge times than Lithium ion systems (LFP & NMC chemistries) with no overcharging or thermal runaway issues

     

    - Full Power over wide temperature range (-20C - +50C)"

     

    These details seem new/updated and significant.
    16 Jun 2012, 01:08 PM Reply Like
  • Tampa Ted
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    Metro - as far as the numbers go, those numbers are the same as in 2011 EOY presentation.

     

    However, they added a 5 to this statement "4-5x increase in cycle life in 100% depth-of-discharge applications"
    16 Jun 2012, 01:13 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Stefan,
    Looked at investor presentation and appears potentially that the following comments are new.

     

    "- Significantly faster recharge times than Lithium ion systems (LFP & NMC chemistries) with no overcharging or thermal runaway issues

     

    - Full Power over wide temperature range (-20C - +50C)"

     

    Not sure who makes LFP and NMC chemistry batteries. Saw in investor presentation where the PbC had been tested to -10C with full power, but do not recall seeing upper number.
    16 Jun 2012, 01:16 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1927) | Send Message
     
    They look like they may be addendum's to Axion's investor presentation that just have not been incorporated yet.

     

    "10-20x higher charge acceptance than lead-acid"

     

    What exactly is the going charge acceptance for traditional lead acid? If its at least 20 amps, including the railway article that would be two sources today that mentions DCA as 200+amps...or am I confusing things?
    16 Jun 2012, 01:17 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    jakurtz,
    Page 14 of the investor presentation shows an LA battery begins its life at about 60 amps (probably first day of use), but rapidly degrades from there. BugEYE's above posting is interesting.
    16 Jun 2012, 01:35 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Does anyone have round trip efficiency numbers on the other chemistry's? I can't remember seeing two numbers (PSOC, deep cycle) before. Since a battery is just a tank and the customer must fill it, I suspect this number might be important...
    16 Jun 2012, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Tim,

     

    It's extremely important. However you have to be careful because there are many variables that impact efficiency such as rate of charge/discharge, temperature, SOC range to be utilized (the efficiency is not the same over the total range of the battery).

     

    I posted a file here some time ago for LAB's on this topic and also had some good discussions with Kirk Tierney on this. PBC is much better near full SOC than LAB's are because of their electrostatic storage but again there are variables to consider. Apply any of these devices to apps like solar, wind or even SS without understanding the correct ranges to operate over and you really risk wasting significant amounts of the energy you're wishing to cycle back and forth.

     

    The bad thing for LAB's is they want to be at full SOC to avoid sulfation but they are very inefficient in that range.
    16 Jun 2012, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Tim, For your ref.

     

    http://1.usa.gov/LRDLbe
    16 Jun 2012, 02:29 PM Reply Like
  • Tampa Ted
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    10 to 20 times 60 amps? Anybody have some more info on this?
    16 Jun 2012, 03:14 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    Ten to 20 times after 6 to 9 months.
    16 Jun 2012, 03:19 PM Reply Like
  • Tampa Ted
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    Slide 19 seems to confirm that. However, b/c of the new 200amp info, it would seem to be better than that ...

     

    http://bit.ly/LvNbnD
    16 Jun 2012, 03:54 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    Right now all we have is an off the cuff reference to 200 amps. Let's hope somebody at the stockholders meeting can drill down and get a bit more detail.
    16 Jun 2012, 04:06 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18511) | Send Message
     
    Stephen: Interesting is, from page 3, "Axion is already a proven supplier of high quality, reliable batteries to OEMs and end users".

     

    The "OEMs" part caught my eye as I can't recall any OEM customers unless (NSC) counts or the toll manufacturing counts or the batteries for test by BMW et al count.

     

    Is this statement a bit of a stretch or a forward-looking clue or ... ?

     

    HardToLove
    16 Jun 2012, 04:12 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    Slide 21 continues to be intriguing.

     

    They show a BMW but don't name them...

     

    "OEM vehicle testing of PbC® battery with optimized hybrid vehicle
    system architecture began in 2011"

     

    Note that they don't say micro-hybrid or SS but "optimized hybrid vehicle system architecture" .... which makes me want to think that the OEM (BMW) has actually designed a new vehicle (or at least a new vehicle architecture) *around* the PbC ---in order to take full advantage of all the PbC's unique strengths, virtues, and limitations (because that's the only way) rather than just dropping the PbC (with minor mods) into an otherwise existing model line, along with other competing battery candidates vying for the same slot. This could be why the testing is taking so daggum long ---They're not just testing the PbC---they're testing a whole new vehicle system architecture design that is CENTERED on and deeply integrates the PbC. Think about that if it's in fact true: BMW isn't just shopping for the best battery to stick into its MH/SS vehicles, it's designing a whole new vehicle around PbC. That would be profound.
    16 Jun 2012, 04:28 PM Reply Like
  • Tampa Ted
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    The first time I read that, I took it to mean the tolling contract ... but I guess it could mean any of the scenarios you mention ...
    16 Jun 2012, 04:31 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10768) | Send Message
     
    Though that BMW designing a new vahicle using the PbC's strengths has been mentioned before in the APCs...Wow!

     

    "We're buckling our seatbelts..."

     

    Bazillion thumbs up if that bears true, 48!
    16 Jun 2012, 04:50 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Yeah, We do know they can adjust charge acceptance with the ratio of carbon vs lead but there are limits ( And better carbon sheet). Of coarse as you make the capacitive part of the system better by increasing volume you pay with energy density. This for some apps would be better and for some worse.

     

    Might be the 200 amps is with some duty cycle defined but we'd only be guessing.
    16 Jun 2012, 04:50 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    Of course, one course of action might be to take some coarse sandpaper to that electrode to better tweak the balance... ;)
    16 Jun 2012, 04:57 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    "They're not just testing the PbC---they're testing a whole new vehicle system architecture design that is CENTERED on and deeply integrates the PbC"

     

    Partially true. Really they know where they want to go and energy storage systems like ultracapacitors, lithium ion batteries and hybrids like the PBC offer them the opportunity to go there.

     

    My impression of why they did the joint presentation with Axion was to tell the entire industry this is where we want to go and you better help us get there. If the PBC is as cost effective as we keep hearing vs the alternatives and they are delivering what BMW needs (price, quality, supply) that just turns up the heat at BMW et al to get it done. And the government regs are like throwing petrol on the fire.

     

    The guys assigned to this program are probably dog tired. But as they achieve each successive milestone they start smiling like an Axionista that just tuned over another rock finding yet another clue!
    16 Jun 2012, 05:03 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    HTL, You're right in where you're looking here.

     

    TG has been very careful to use the word prototype in all of his discussions concerning the PBC. The OEMs are as you suggest. Leaving out prototype could just be an unintended omission given they didn't specifically say "PBC". Or they could be considering PBC beyond prototype based on NS's requirements which are not the same as automotive.
    16 Jun 2012, 05:12 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1899) | Send Message
     
    ever the gentle touch
    16 Jun 2012, 05:42 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Thanks iindelco, been on the road so not much time to comment. Will have a closer look tonight. Again - thanks!
    16 Jun 2012, 05:42 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1899) | Send Message
     
    and quite an optimist
    16 Jun 2012, 05:44 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Stefan, You make a good point.

     

    East Penn sells direct so they are classified as an OEM.
    16 Jun 2012, 05:53 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    Guilt has attached... ;)
    16 Jun 2012, 05:53 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2455) | Send Message
     
    "XX Amps" type references mean nothing without stating the specifications of the battery. Numbers are usually stated in C to remove the size variable when comparing different types.

     

    1C is the amps you would need to completely charge or discharge the battery in one hour. Note there is no Amps or Voltage dimension to the "C" rating.

     

    LOTS of factors affect C numbers, so they needs to be used with caution.
    16 Jun 2012, 05:55 PM Reply Like
  • Tampa Ted
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    I like your way of thinking 48 ... unfortunately, this article about BMW, Audi, Benz and VW willing to put money into a carbon fiber but seemingly not willing to put money into Axion has always nagged me.

     

    http://cnnmon.ie/MbmaJ0

     

    The nagging question is, if BWW were really betting big on PbC ... why not make a strategic investment? Its clear from this article that they have done it in the recent past.
    16 Jun 2012, 06:42 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    sihi, What you say is true. This could be an apples and oranges comparison between BMW's PBC and the larger format battery targeted for the PC.
    16 Jun 2012, 06:47 PM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    481086:
    Supremely well-founded concept.
    From apmarshall62 Comments (77):
    ...While PbC in a stop-start application isn't make or break (as we can see with short-lived AGM batteries), it would be in an application such as you describe that dramatically scales down the size of the engine. In that case, you really want to essentially redesign the car around the battery. So, if we have now gotten to the point where BMW believes in the battery, now they can start the multi-year process of redesigning the car, which we should? see before the end of the decade.

     

    It gives the impression that apmarshall62 & 48 share the concepts.

     

    From Carlos:
    ...BMW therefore little interested in the present generation of SS and are more focused on the next generation of SS, in my view this is the delay and the time are being taken to introduce the PbC Tech.
    The intentions of BMW is to introduce in 2013/2014 the next generation of cars with the next generation of SS. The cars will be equipped with: SS, regenerative braking and perhaps sailing and assist the inicial acceleration. Obviously with PbC Tech.
    May 24-2012
    Good Night to All.
    16 Jun 2012, 06:56 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    Stefan,

     

    I would think it would be matter of timing. Why would/should BMW front any cash before they really needed to, IE, before they were really sure about using PbC? After all, Axion has been able to sustain itself all this time while marching towards commercialization. Once a production decision is made by BMW then perhaps that would be the opportune time for such a strategic investment, as we know that Axion can scale electrode production up fairly quickly to meet, once they have money in hand. Also, at this point we don't know that some kind of offer wasn't made, but that Axion rejected it maybe due to strings attached. Maybe something *is* in the works on that front for all we know. What I think we can be sure of though, is that once BMW does decide they do want "X" Million PbCs from Axion for their newest micro/mild hybrid launch, they will surely do whatever on their part is required to ensure that Axion is able to provide, by whatever means and in whatever measure that Axion decides is appropriate...
    16 Jun 2012, 07:07 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Stefan, I see a big difference here though.

     

    Lower cost carbon fiber is a structural element that really doesn't have any competitor if they can get it to a certain cost. This being for certain areas of the vehicle. And there might not be large scale capacity outside of the aerospace industry. So in this case they really have to take the bull by the horns if they want this in their vehicles at any scale at some point in the very distant future.

     

    If you compare that to automotive energy storage systems there are a bunch of alternatives being worked on and there are a bunch of well healed suppliers engaged. If they see there is adequate coverage to support price, quality, delivery and they don't have any advantage they might be satisfied to let the current cat fight cover their needs.

     

    BTW, I'll leave you with one other thing to fret about since I've been chewing on it for some time since I read the article you posted awhile ago. If they are willing to pay x amount more for mass reduction in structural elements how much more will they pay for mass reduction in energy storage systems? That's my bigger concern.
    16 Jun 2012, 07:22 PM Reply Like
  • Tampa Ted
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    lol, iindelco, which article are you talking about? Its not immediately clear to me from your post?
    16 Jun 2012, 07:34 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Stefan, The article you just posted on carbon fiber.

     

    "But high-volume applications have eluded carbon fibers. For one thing, the material is expensive. According to published estimates, carbon fiber costs about $10 a pound. That's a lot cheaper than the $150 a pound it cost a decade ago but still ten to 20 times more than a pound of steel."

     

    http://cnnmon.ie/MbmaJ0

     

    Sorry, I was referring to the fact that the article you just posted is one I've been digesting for some time! LOL (Big smile because I can understand how I confused you!)
    16 Jun 2012, 07:39 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    In other words, if the auto manufacturers are willing to pay up for carbon fiber structural components in order to save weight, then just maybe they're equally willing to pay up for Li-ion in order to save weight over the alternatives (PbC), thereby leaving us out in the cold?
    16 Jun 2012, 07:40 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    Carlos, many thanks for that... I was unaware, or had conveniently forgotten, apmarshall62's previous fine comments... (Hey, sometimes them intel weenies *do* make the right call!) ;) In any case, I am (perhaps overly) hopeful, and in congruence...
    16 Jun 2012, 07:44 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    It's a factor that needs to be "weighed". Remember that PBC is also a two battery alternative.

     

    This is not to say there are not also performance differences like cold weather performance. Like the Porsche lithium battery offer for racers where you have to take the lithium ion battery out for the colder season and change back to LA.
    16 Jun 2012, 07:48 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2297) | Send Message
     
    Carbon fiber has no moat.

     

    A big player can afford to buy up little fish suppliers.

     

    No matter how big you are, if Axion does not want to sell their intellectual property outright, you are left negotiating rather than swallowing up the little fish.

     

    This remains the compelling reason for owning AXPW.
    16 Jun 2012, 07:55 PM Reply Like
  • Tampa Ted
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    ha, I gotcha. I remember reading and trying to digest that bit of news when it was published. It has always nagged me a little bit.
    16 Jun 2012, 08:12 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    SMaturin, Good point.

     

    But there could be design or process patents that create value for one portion of the carbon fiber industry exclusive of the rest.
    16 Jun 2012, 08:14 PM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    481086
    It seems right, what matters is that we are thinking in the same direction.
    Similarly JP in his article: Lux Boosts Micro-Hybrid Vehicle Forecast To 39M Cars / Year By 2017 (http://seekingalpha.co...):
    ...Heavy Micro-Hybrids are typically mid-size and full-size cars that offer the highest level of stop-start functionality, take full advantage of regenerative braking and implement other fuel economy innovations. Because of their extreme power demands, heavy micro-hybrids need better performance than the best AGM batteries can offer.
    Have a good night.
    Carlos.
    16 Jun 2012, 08:41 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4356) | Send Message
     
    SM > "Slide 19 seems to confirm that. However, b/c of the new 200amp info, it would seem to be better than that ...

     

    http://bit.ly/LvNbnD"

     

    For me, all attempts to access that link return
    <
    This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.
    <Error><Code&... has expired</Message>...
    16 Jun 2012, 10:47 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1264) | Send Message
     
    Stefan, reluctance to put money into PbC is probably all about how much control AXPW has over their product (moat compared to carbon fiber investment) AND how that control effects production capacity. having one supplier is tricky for any big customer.

     

    i do think a BMW investment is more likely now that they are fleet testing. if they want to help ramp up production they'll put money to AXPW imo.
    16 Jun 2012, 11:39 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    If you think back to the conference calls, Tom has spent a lot of time talking about how the automakers want to do more than simple stop-start. They know they can get much more from the mechanical systems, but they can't do it without better batteries.

     

    For example, the current DCA profile leaves a seven second lag between the end of the engine off event and the beginning of charging to allow for an acceleration interval. The automakers would much rather delay the charge interval until you ease up on the accelerator. That kind of delay pushes sulfation rates through the roof and is a non-starter with AGM.

     

    Similarly the current systems cut the engine off when you hit about 5 km/h. The automakers would love to bump that cut-off point to 15 km/h but doing so increases the hotel loads and requires a faster restart response for cases where you slow to 15 km/h entering a roundabout but then need to power on through.

     

    Work with the PbC has never been about the first generation stop-start systems they're already making. Instead it's focused on the far better systems they want to make that can't happen with lesser technology.
    17 Jun 2012, 12:55 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    >Stephan, I think there's a big difference between investing in a carbon fiber plant that will be used to make major components like body parts for your vehicles, and only your vehicles, and investing in a battery company that hopes to make less costly components for your vehicles and everybody else's.

     

    Some years ago Axion wanted charge algorithm data from Honda and the first thing they demanded in return for the information was an exclusive on the battery. Frankly I'd be really worried if Axion took money from an automaker because of the risk that preferential or exclusive terms to the one might make it impossible to sell to the many. The biggest challenge over the years has been keeping the PbC technology free of commercial entanglements that limit the potential market. I'd hate to see the boys surrender control over their own destiny at this late stage in the game.
    17 Jun 2012, 01:09 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    John, your thinking and presentation here is a lot more organized than mine, but it's very much what I was trying to grasp and get at... that BMW's "testing" is much more than just testing the PbC... that it may have well been more of an iterative design and discovery process as they sought to maximize the performance and benefits of a vehicle architecture specifically tailored to use the PbC to its utmost. I would think something like that would initially begin with exploring the envelop of all the capabilities and limitations of the PbC (which would take a while) and then designing (or evolving) a vehicle / drivetrain system to attempt to exploit that performance envelope.. (which would also take some time)... then further testing, further analysis, further discovery through that analysis, further tweaking and adjusting, perhaps some redesign, then further testing and evaluation etc etc... all of which I could easily imagine taking at least three years to really bear fruit... Maybe I'm just concocting a plausible narrative to allow me to continue to believe, but to me it all fits: That they're not simply testing a new battery in an existing SS vehicle... in actuality they're designing and building a new and much better vehicle solution around a very new, very unique, yet powerful device which is the PbC. And yah, that's going to take a while... ;)
    17 Jun 2012, 01:23 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    I'm not sure how much design and development work is involved. The mechanical components they're using today are already quite robust and my *guess* is that most of the work being done for heavier micro-hybrid architectures is focused on control electronics that decide when to turn the engine off, when to turn it back on and when to charge the battery. The beauty of stop-start is that by the time you replace a starter and an alternator with a larger starter-generator, the mechanical costs are effectively a wash and from there it's all about the battery and control electronics.
    17 Jun 2012, 01:39 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    But isn't it also, that if you start introducing regenerative braking, sailing, electrically driven A/C, powersteering, coolant pumps and fans etc, and/or even electric supercharging--- features that I realize take the car into higher-reward heavy microhybrid territory, but that if your goal is a very robust but cost-effective micro-hybrid, then wouldn't achieving the best integration of all those elements be necessarily very battery-performance and battery-characteristic dependent? Beyond just tweaking software parameters, to involve mechanical changes? Seems to me that by finding itself with such a first-mover advantage with so new a device, that BMW just might decide to get rather ambitious with it. I could easily imagine that as they gained more direct experience and deeper confidence with the PbC, that they realized what potential it held for a real leap-ahead in hybrid architecture...
    17 Jun 2012, 01:57 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    I was surprised to read the Canadian report because I hadn't realized that BMW was already turning off the engine at 5 km/h. So that tells me they already have all the suppliers and the development work done for by wire required to do that. Going to 15 km/h is only then about having a bigger accumulator to handle the added hotel loads and the charge acceptance to get the battery ready for the next event.
    17 Jun 2012, 02:06 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    As I understand it, the biggest gains they're gunning for come from opportunity charging when engine power is not needed for the wheels.

     

    Take a couple minutes and study Figure 8 in the PbC white-paper, which shows the catastrophic DCA loss that arises from using a 2-minute charge delay instead of a 10-second delay. It's apparently all due to accelerated sulfation rates in AGM batteries that aren't recharged promptly.

     

    The differences between PbC and AGM are striking if you use a 10-second delay. They're unbelievable if you increase the delay to a minute or two.

     

    That longer delay to take advantage of regenerative braking and opportunity charging is the real meat of the matter.

     

    The PbC doesn't mind waiting while the engine is busy doing other things.
    17 Jun 2012, 03:08 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    That makes sense because once you're up to speed you are really not needing the level of output from the engine that is required for acceleration. And you'd really like to run the engine in it's peak efficiency zone like a hybrid set-up. So you can keep using excess energy from the engine to charge the PBC battery and when you get to the top of your charge range you can turn the alternator off and run your hotel loads off the PBC. Set the sweet spot for engine power required to maintain highway speeds just right and you can save a bunch.

     

    You would always leave enough room in the PBC operating range to take advantage of dynamic braking or accelerate with the alternator off. So you're always going to be in some partial SOC range that the LAB can't stand.

     

    I would think you'd set the sweet spot in the engine being in the mode where the alternator is not functioning and size the alternator for quick charge. Thus you're trying to set the duty cycle on the alternator for the engine to be in the efficient zone for the engine as much as possible which is alternator off..

     

    So you're right. High energy storage density is not that important. You need just enough so that you can manage the life of the components you're cycling and a battery that has long life over the operating range to handle the cycling with enough on either side of the cycling range to gather your dynamic braking energy, turn off the alternator when accelerating and to manage your hotel loads based on the information you've gathered for most stop times.

     

    Oh, Also, I think you could use some type of dynamic braking to maintain your cruise speed as well.

     

    Good stuff. I think I'm starting to get it.

     

    I'm not sure I'm making that much sense here. I'm tired.
    17 Jun 2012, 04:13 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    John and iindelco,
    Thanks for both your comments. They help me to understand how the PbC may be used.
    17 Jun 2012, 05:32 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    I've always avoided this particular discussion because it runs way down the rabbit hole.

     

    Slide 17 of the Ford-BMW presentation at ELBC 12 provides a fascinating glimpse into the stark impact of minor changes in the duty cycle on DCA. In that slide, eliminating a one minute discharge at 7 amps after the charging cycle slashed DCA degradation by almost 50%.

     

    http://bit.ly/KXTW3N

     

    While the engineering is completely out of my depth, it was a favorite topic of casual conversation among the Ford and BMW engineers at ELBC 12. I hope to learn more this September.
    17 Jun 2012, 06:28 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Metro, I think I'm just starting to see the path others, John included, have been walking for some time.

     

    What I really like is the fact they already have many of the component sets they need to pull this off (I'll temper this to say the air conditioner efficiency is more of a challenge). Now it's a matter of developing the right algorithms for how you optimize the engine with the types of batteries you want to assess. And it does require more effort than in the past because this needs to be done for each engine package. In reality there should be only one or two (petrol and diesel) but you still have to take care of the group wishing up scale higher power plants as many people obviously don't just drive for efficiency.
    17 Jun 2012, 10:55 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    JP, 86 and iindelco. Excellent dialogue this morning. The question that looms in my mind is if they intend to build on a 12v or 32-48v platform. I see the 12v platform as the analogue in a digital world.

     

    I am really hoping they choose to build the heavy micro-hybrid with the higher voltages because of the PbC strengths. They built the LC Super Hybrid with a parallel 12v system and then announced that a 48v would soon follow.

     

    How long until every ICE SS that rolls off the assembly line is 32-48v? and will they have PbC? isn't it just a matter of time...
    17 Jun 2012, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • Tampa Ted
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    Gotta say, I appreciate all the different viewpoints!
    17 Jun 2012, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    Those different viewpoints are what makes these Concentrators so valuable. I can only describe things from the vantage point of the shoes I stand in. Others see things differently. When you get enough different viewpoints an accurate picture begins to emerge.

     

    VIVA LE DIFFERENCE
    17 Jun 2012, 01:20 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    Since stop-start must operate at a partial state of charge and the PbC's voltage has a linear decline, I can pretty much guarantee that they'll use a 16-volt PbC for a 12-volt system.
    17 Jun 2012, 01:22 PM Reply Like
  • Tampa Ted
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    D-Inv -

     

    Not sure if this question has been addressed, but the link was to the Axion investor presentation on their website. It may be the browser you tried to open it in ... When I first started downloading stuff from their website, it gave me problems ...
    17 Jun 2012, 01:27 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    The sweet spot of the 16v PbC (80% SOC or 12.8v) does align well, no argument here. Just thinking maybe part of the delay maybe the thought of moving the upper end of the micro-hybrid into higher voltages where most of the EV's and hrbrids are. Call it a hunch...
    17 Jun 2012, 01:36 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Tim, They've been talking about large scale roll out of higher voltage systems in passenger vehicles for decades. A few of the obvious benefits being smaller electromechanical devices and wire sizes. Some of the negatives are the amount of supplier capacity that has to be retooled, switching (DC is very rough on contacts, especially high power inductive/capacitive loads.) and EMI. I know you know this.

     

    With fuel/material prices being where they are I have to believe the push to transition is well under way.
    17 Jun 2012, 01:57 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Tim, Just a lead in to an article but they are working on it......again. The agreement shows how difficult it is. You really have to coordinate this across a large if not the entire automotive sector to pull it off. It starts with the automotive engineering standards agreements which all the industry players work through.

     

    A June headline from last year.

     

    ""German Five Push Three New EE Standards"
    Audi, BMW, Daimler, Porsche and Volkswagen are jointly and publicly supporting standards for a 48-volt bus architecture, a partial network architecture and an electric vehicle charging interface."

     

    http://bit.ly/LYHWQE
    17 Jun 2012, 02:44 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4356) | Send Message
     
    Stefan > "Not sure if this question has been addressed, but the link was to the Axion investor presentation on their website."

     

    Thanks.
    17 Jun 2012, 08:15 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Somewhere along my journey through these concentrators I came across a link that listed all the plugins and hybrids and they all operate between 32-48v. Perhaps the silver lining to the EV/HEV "experience" is that the 32-48v standards will be explored and we will make the jump. I wonder what does Johnson Controls think of the 48v standard.

     

    Not so long ago the battery had but a single purpose, to start an engine. Now, it helps that engine to run more efficiently and appears to be one of our only economical means of storing kinetic energy. We are storing energy everywhere in; houses, cars, trains, trucks, boats, planes, grid, micro grids, buildings, data centers, communication centers ... everywhere! (why is the sector depressed)

     

    Anyway, let's fast forward to the time when all vehicles will be 32-48v. What will the batteries in the micro-hybrids look like? will they be lead acid? I haven't seen many LAB's beyond 12v and we know what happens when we string them together. We also know what happens when we string the PbC together (KIAS). Will it be Li-Ion? not if you consider JP's resource constraints across the array of storage needs.

     

    I believe that when the automotive industry transitions out of the 12v system, the PbC will be the battery of choice. If you are going to build a car around a battery you might as well make it the new standard. The 12v standard is dead, long live the King of String...
    17 Jun 2012, 09:12 PM Reply Like
  • Tampa Ted
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    This looks like it could be interesting for understanding how the federal gov't will interface with private financing to drive future renewable projects.

     

    DOE Releases Draft Guide for Private Financing of Large-Scale Renewable Energy Projects at Federal Facilities

     

    http://bit.ly/NFXMB7

     

    http://1.usa.gov/NFXKcz
    16 Jun 2012, 01:20 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Stefan, Sounds like Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac.

     

    If they are going to take the responsibility isn't this just a way to get around approval from congress. BTW, They just (kind of) raised 350 million for USU this way to keep a uranium enrichment development program going.
    16 Jun 2012, 01:54 PM Reply Like
  • Tampa Ted
    , contributor
    Comments (2660) | Send Message
     
    Good point. Hadn't thought about that angle ...
    16 Jun 2012, 03:06 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10768) | Send Message
     
    Flash news!

     

    John Peterson only two back in the US Open!

     

    http://on-msn.com/MSwiDN
    16 Jun 2012, 01:23 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    What the hell, John? You moonlighting on us? ;)

     

    His secret weapon: A special heavyweight nano-tech driver called the "BangWhiz" ... which together with the "Dr. itch" putter, sinks the eagle nearly every time...
    16 Jun 2012, 01:29 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30635) | Send Message
     
    I promise it's not me. I've always had a consistent hook or slice depending on the location of the lateral water hazard. I lost a dozen balls in the 17 holes the last time I picked up a set of clubs. I'll just stick to my bicycle.
    16 Jun 2012, 01:31 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    John, You're supposed to hit the ball with clubs not divining rods. :))
    16 Jun 2012, 01:43 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2434) | Send Message
     
    I have a Google alerts for Coda (Chinese EV maker assumbled and selling in California)

     

    a reference to the Emergency Responder's Guide popped up in my alerts which I thought might interest a few of you:

     

    http://bit.ly/Lw0DYy~/media/Files/PDFs/COD...

     

    Included:

     

    "In case it is necessary to extinguish a fire involving the high voltage battery pack, large amounts of water from a fire hydrant (if possible) must be applied. Small amounts of water could produce a combustible or explosive gas mixture via electrolysis or from a chemical reaction between the Li-ion battery and water."
    16 Jun 2012, 05:32 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2434) | Send Message
     
    ARGH! I hate SA and how it "helps" you with URLS.

     

    Try this: http://bit.ly/Ktq1SK
    16 Jun 2012, 05:35 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18511) | Send Message
     
    WTB: E-mail support@seekingalpha.com about the links. I recently get the impression that they have a better problem resolution tracking procedure in place that might improve fixing of things like that.

     

    I currently have one they are working on regarding links to comments in instablogs (the stuff starting with "#" and following are dropped) that they believe will be fixed next week ... maybe. They said it was a tough one.

     

    HardToLove
    16 Jun 2012, 05:42 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    Thanks WTB!

     

    I remember years ago that Ultralife had two events over the course of a couple years where their waste material truck started smoking and the local volunteer fire department in the different locations arrived in time to apply water to the smoke filled truck. Luckily all the firemen were physically fit and able to run away fast enough.

     

    Makes a good story for the importance of HAZMAT.

     

    BTW, Ultralife in that time frame burned their plant in England to the ground......twice as well. Not sure if they built it again for the third time.

     

    PS Here is the video of the TOXCO (battery recycler) plant in Canada if you've never seen it.

     

    http://bit.ly/tLMbw6
    16 Jun 2012, 05:45 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10768) | Send Message
     
    Last year at the shareholders conference it was 102 degrees.

     

    This year we're getting a break; supposed to be only 96 degrees.

     

    Last year I wore a tie. Not this year.
    16 Jun 2012, 05:40 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2434) | Send Message
     
    "One button push start eliminates up to 30 minutes
    of startup preparation"

     

    from the flyer for the Railserve Leaf (genset locomotive)I mentioned a way above

     

    http://bit.ly/N2ObDk

     

    Will the unions protest? :-)
    16 Jun 2012, 05:50 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18511) | Send Message
     
    WTB: Less work for same pay? I don't think so.

     

    HardToLove
    16 Jun 2012, 06:13 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    UPDATE 1-Doe Run CEO Neil to retire, sees lead use growing

     

    http://bit.ly/Lwfwds
    16 Jun 2012, 07:34 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3440) | Send Message
     
    iindelco, your many-tentacled powers of research are prodigious indeed. Bully for us! I wonder if their new process will eventually yield lower lead prices and/or better recycling... things that would be helpful generally, and particularly to the Lead-acid business and perhaps to Axion...
    16 Jun 2012, 07:53 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10254) | Send Message
     
    48, The EPA has been working at a feverish pace to reduce lead emissions. Having a process that reduces these to near zero with less energy input is a plus for sustainability. Good because Axion needs lead. Of coarse no information on investment and it's still under development.

     

    I also posted it just as a reminder that a big supplier in the industry doesn't see lead going away soon. That's also good for us.
    16 Jun 2012, 08:02 PM Reply Like