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  • Axion Power Concentrator 122: July 02, 2012: Notes And More From The June 21, 2012 Shareholders Conference 185 comments
    Jul 2, 2012 2:10 AM | about stocks: AXPW

    These instablogs and the people who maintain them have no relationship whatsoever to Axion Power International. To our direct knowledge no person with a current relationship to Axion Power International other than being a shareholder participates in these instablogs.

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    Axion Power: "About To Take Flight"

    by Mayascribe

    A veritable cold front blew in for this year's Shareholders' Conference. Last year it was searing, at 102 degrees; this year we topped out at only 94 degrees. The humidity was drenching, the beautiful New Castle Country Club pool looking inviting, even at 10 AM.

    Attendance was up significantly this year versus last year. Though the numbers are still small, and subtracting that there seemed to be half again more Axion Power employees present this year than last, it also seemed that there was a solid 50% increase from shareholders and perspective investors present.

    The business part of the meeting went smoothly. All motions were approved and seconded. Director, Mr. Glenn Patterson, was given a very nice crystal plaque for his "all-in" help over the years in bringing forth Axion Power to where we stand today.

    With the business out of the way, CEO, Thomas Granville, stepped up to the podium smiled, and said, "This is when the fun begins!" Tom did not this trip recount the early stories of how Axion Power came into being, but he did talk about the roster of contributors, from the board of directors, to leading officers, to developmental executives and shop foremans, of which I feel we are so lucky to have.

    I always enjoy listening to Thomas Granville tell a story, and my favorite this year was about the hiring of Vani Dantam. At first, Thomas wasn't sure that Vani Dantam, the new Director of Marketing, would become part of the Axion team. But Vani sought out Axion (if I am correct), because of the unique properties the PbC holds.

    It rapidly became apparent to Thomas that Vani had amassed over his working years and amazing depth of knowledge of the automotive industry, and also held an equally amazing array of key contacts throughout the industry.

    Seemed for a time, that Vani's pay grade was above what Axion Power could afford. But, a deal was made, Vani rented a place in New Castle, enrolled his kids into local schools, and now is a New Castle home owner in permanent residence.

    I think he was smiling more than anybody present, of Axion leadership, or the shareholders.

    As most of you know, Vani Dantam used to work with the now defunct Ener1. My absolute favorite story he told, was that his wife, "Made him park his Ener1 Lithium battery test car down the street from his home," reminding me of last year, when Thomas introduced the quite humorous new term, "Car-B-Que."

    Followers of this blog, must realize that that was a very prescient, and full of imagery new "Urban Dictionary-type term," as we all have read and seen pictures of numerous lithium cars spontaneously blowing up, the GM hardened laboratory having an eight inch thick steel door bent up, and some lab windows getting blown out; people unfortunately injured.

    Vani is indeed a very knowledgeable man, and I found him sincere and accomplished in answering all but Rastro's question (a shareholder from Pittsburgh) who asked about what scientific problems existed with the PbC. After a long, pregnant pause, Vani couldn't think of one! Except for trying to get industries to realize that the PbC has capabilities that rival, or in some cases, are better than lithium ion batteries.

    The PbC is cheaper to make, safer to make, easier use, and much safer to use. The PbC does not require TWO reinforced steel "casings." The PbC does not require as much ancillary costs, such as wiring, a clean room for making lithium ion batteries, and a much more complicated Battery Management System, and coolant barriers. The PbC is safer to transport. The PbC works better in extreme temperatures, and this is perhaps my biggest takeaway from this shareholders meeting:

    The PbC accepts a charge two to four times as fast as does a lithium battery. How huge is this fact when it comes to using the 12 Volt PbC (or the 16 volt big brother 30HT) in stop/start vehicles, for over-the-road and yard switching locomotives, and especially for grid applications.

    It wasn't until this meeting, my third time to visit New Castle, that I feel I have a much better understanding of the PbC. For lay people, or non-battery geeks like me, I will attempt to explain the PbC, and its make up.

    Each PbC is really a string of two volt batteries inside a single casing. For the 12 volt PbC, there are six two volt batteries. For the 16 volt 30HT, there are eight individual two volt batteries in a casing that stands about 30% taller than the 12 volt PbC.

    So in affect, each battery, the PbC, or the 30HT, is actually a string of two volt batteries within a single casing.

    I will herefoward refrain from using terms such as "cathodes" or "anodes" when referring the two "poles" that emerge from any battery casing. It will now be the negative pole and the positive pole, because inside the PbC or 30HT are many electrodes and carbon activated sheets (which I formally thought was the cathode).

    Many months ago, I was embarrassed, could not even post a comment about where the activated carbon sheeting was made. Been there twice before, and I had not seen it. How could this be? I felt I was letting all of you down, and quite frankly felt all the good and innocent qualities "ignorance" implied by my utter lack of where-about knowledge. I finally had it confirmed that I will never see them made. And very few ever will. My best guess is that the carbon sheeting is made in some "Bat Cave" below the Clover Lane facility...no way to be sure! Hugely likely that only a very few Axion employees ever get to see or work on the activated carbon sheeting process being manufactured.

    The 10 AM morning meeting went fast. The Q&A spilled beyond the allotted 1PM time. I believe about half of all questions asked, were asked by "Axionistas." All were very informed questions. Later in the day, at the cocktail party, Thomas spoke to myself and others that he really enjoyed answering, taking on hard questions, as it helps in the future with explaining the capabilities and the future potential for the PbC.

    Which circles back to Vani Dantam. The hardest thing for him and all of the Axion leadership to accomplish, is to take head on all the lithium hype, all the government subsidies, all the media coverage, the backing by uninformed, or improperly informed Washington DC politicos. The "appearance" that shifting away from lithium back to "lead acid" seems to have taken on a patina of going in reverse technological innovation. This is an ongoing very hard message to turn on its head: That lead acid is NOT a bad thing simply because lead is used. Lead acid batteries are the most recycled product of ANY product used in the United States. Over 99% of all lead acid batteries are recycled, and there is money in the reclaiming of the lead to be recycled into new batteries. Lithium ion batteries are virtually non-recyclable; people, companies get paid to recycle lead acid batteries, but they have to have to pay to dispose of, or recycle lithium.

    How our leaders actually want to obtain lithium, to become depended upon lithium sources outside the US, largely mined in unfriendly nations, is beyond this writer. The current policy in Bolivia, is to invite all the foreign investment they can obtain, to build lithium mines. But there is no guarantee that any plant built will not someday be nationalized. There are other countries in the world with lithium potential. But any new lithium mine of "worthy" size, will cost several hundred million dollars to create.

    Then, of course, there is lithium and "battery grade" lithium, much, much more expensive and rare. I encourage the more informed to comment about lithium potential resources availability around the world.

    The curious question for our US leadership, both corporate and public, is: Why are we hyping, subsidizing and developing multiple industries to use lithium when it comes from foreign and potentially unfriendly nations. Haven't we been sending trillions upon trillions of US dollars to the Middle East, to countries that don't like us, and now we're are on the threshold of doing it again?

    WHEN ARE WE GOING TO LEARN FROM OUR PAST STUPIDITY?

    Preposterous to me, especially when lead is cheaper, available, and mined in friendlier parts of the world, as well as being mined right here in the US.

    Perhaps, Axion's greatest challenge going forward is going after and challenging the lithium supporters. It seems the automakers are focusing more on weight and subsidies, than dynamic charge acceptance, driver (and homeowner's) safety, and most importantly, reliability and cost.

    SIDEBAR NOTE: I encourage all of us to come up with a boilerplate letter that we can all send to our senators and congressmen/women.

    The following are bulleted points (some of my opinion):

    Rosewater And The Residential Cube -- Rosewater CEO, Joe Picarelli, learned the night before the Shareholder's Conference that he was to give a mini-lecture introducing this new product. He did excellent job despite the short notice. The press report covers most of what I have to say. I will add though, that this market is a pretty significant development. It's really all about the uber wealthy, with their $100,000 home entertainment, lighting, and security systems.

    Many companies that do this have visited New Castle, some staying for two days on their own dime. Companies, or dealerships, also brought their installers, who basically couldn't wait until this product becomes available.

    This new cube can be stored virtually anywhere, in a basement, a garage, attic, or outside, in any climate. It locks down a perfectly smooth 110/60 deliverance of power, which, if solar is added, can take a Malibu or Miami mansion completely off grid.

    I want one of these!

    There remains some questions about UL approval, and if this product can or can't be sold without approval. I gathered that UL approval will be gained by the end of this year.

    Joe "Pic" invited me to the September Indianapolis show, the world's largest of its kind, and said he will provide me with a press pass, as this show is not open to the public.

    The Grid -- In about two weeks we should hear of an update about FERC regulations regarding pricing policies. My feeling is that the PowerCube sales delays have largely been because of the lack of some kind of pricing guidelines or formulas for the time shifting energy storage capabilities that the PbC holds, as well as other battery manufacturers attempting to help smooth out grid fluctuations.

    I do not believe this is an Axion Power exclusive problem, but rather, and industry-wide problem, which has no parameters, no past formulas to base future pricing decisions on, all because this is basically brand new evolving technology (more later).

    Railroads-- For quite some time I have held concern for Axion shareholders' hopes that the PbC could be potentially used by all railroad outfits. I had often questioned to myself how viable the PbC would be in the Rocky or Sierra Nevada Mountain chains.

    Vani Dantam did speak of Norfolk Southern and its Crescent Line, which basically weaves it's way all the way from New Jersey to New Orleans. Needing clarification of this, I approached esteemed Board of Director, Bob Avrill. My supposition proved correct. The PbC is NOT viable for any rail road company to use in high grade, steep mountains. Simply, and though no climb up is up all the way, nor decent straight down all the way, the PbC would be fully charged in say, the first 10% of a decent. The rest of the trip all the kenetic energy is lost. Nor, would the PbC contribute enough to make economic sense to help propel a long train hauling coal very far up a steep grade.

    The PbC further makes no sense in flat states like Iowa.

    However, in the "rolly poly" areas, like the Appalachians, the PbC should excel, and save any rail road significant fuel costs. Therefore, I believe that the numbers of potential over-the-road locomotives able to use the PbC with economic viability is greatly reduced.

    However, yard switchers, from all rail road outfits, remains prime potential for adopting PbC technology; still a huge market.

    According to Thomas Granville, all Axion testing is done, all Norfolk Southern testing is done. Only third party testing at Penn State is what is left. Shrugs followed.

    It was mentioned that there will be about 80 new locomotives (or retrofitted?) coming onto the Crescent Line, but not all of them will be using the PbC. I remain unclear if this is because, say for every two diesels used, another one will be a PbC locomotive.

    Lastly, far back into the early Axion Power Concentrators, it was suggested by me that racking issues could be a problem holding up things. My information from this meeting is that this was to some degree true.

    Automotive -- My sense from New Castle is that the major OEMs are going very slowly with adopting the PbC. Perhaps the biggest problem is in the Catch 22 category. Axion does not have the capability to make millions of batteries. How does Axion gain a major order from a major automaker, if they can't make the batteries? We all know the answer is Axion reaching a partnership with a major battery maker, like Johnson Controls, Exide, Enersys, or East Penn.

    This is a tricky area, because PbC technology is not limited to just the Automotive arena. No way can Axion afford to limit its future toward one sector, only to be contained in others. Thomas did mention licensing, or partnering up, but I don't expect this to happen soon with GM (the first time I have ever heard Thomas mention GM, btw) or BMW.

    Rather, though, it appears there is STRONG interest from smaller automakers. It is my opinion that the smaller automakers will come out being the smarter automakers, if they do indeed choose the two battery approach using the PbC, and a small cranking battery.

    All information we have found here in these forums, and Enders Dickenson's excellent Power Point Presentation at the morning meeting, show categorically that all AGM batteries will fail within about 8 months, some within two months, even if the vehicle is rarely used.

    But there is a problem within the problem. Both the automakers and the EPA just don't get it. I expect that the EPA currently is only interested in fuels savings of just bought, drive-off-the-lot mileage and EPA emissions requirements. They are clueless when it comes to when the stop/start feature degrades to where the AGM battery renders stop/start useless.

    Sure, the vehicle will still work. But the fuel savings proclaimed by the automakers, and approved by the EPA, essentially breakdown within months after the vehicle is driven off the dealership lot.

    It could be several years before the EPA wakes up, and I foresee many, many dissatisfied stop/start vehicle buyers coming more into the media forefront within the next few years. I believe a class action lawsuit could be looming someday. I also believe that someday the EPA will be forced by its own requirements and regulations to enforce the automakers to create a better solution.

    For me, and I fully recognize this could take years, but this potential scenario holds majestic, unbelievable promise for Axion Power and the shareholders.

    For those of you that recall my family's involvement two generations back, in buying a few shares of a company called Universal Wire and Spring, which then became Hoover Ball and Bearing, and then Johnson Controls: Near the end of the cocktail party I related that story to Thomas Granville, about my grandfather and Abe Lincoln's grandson, both contributing architects to the Camelback Inn in Scottsdale, AZ, -- how one or the other of them recommended buying Universal Wire and Spring --that someday, Axion Power would surreptitiously team up with JCI.

    Thomas bloomed a smile, and added he had once stayed at the Camelback Inn.

    But...of course, he couldn't comment.

    Class 8 Trucks -- Heck, I didn't even know what a Class 8 Truck was before this meeting. But it appears there is potential for the PbC to be used and could obtain as much as a 50% increase in fuel savings, plus have added auxiliary back up power for when these trucks are forced to turn off, rather than idling all night long at rest stops.

    Seems like there is some potential here in using a smaller motor with as many as 24 30HTs.

    Tim Enright is our resident expert on this subject, so I will step out of the way, and encourage all related Class 8 truck type questions to be posed to him.

    Oil Rigs -- It appears the problems with oil rigs is that they just make so much darned money that they don't care about saving fuel. Further, I'm pretty sure the EPA doesn't do enough regulation of particulates spilling into the sky with offshore drilling.

    Here is something new. Every once in a while a rogue wave hits an oil rig. These waves can contain the power to disrupt or uplift the cables holding the rig in place. The first thing the rig operators do is to get the drill is pulled up as quickly as possible.

    But, if I am correct, firing up backup diesel generators takes far longer than a PowerCube, to begin pulling up the drill. This is a key safety issue both for companies and rig operators that has some teeth.

    The PowerCube can respond in milliseconds.

    It is expected by Rosewater that once the first PowerCube is sold to any rig operator, the PowerCube will become vogue, and more sales will rapidly pile on.

    Mega C's 2,000,000 shares -- To date, not one share has been sold. It is not known if they will be kept, or sold later on. As unpopular as my scenario was received about these shares, I still hold onto the idea that they will never reach the market.

    PbC and 400 Amps? Testing And battery Stress -- I was astounded to learn that the PbC can hit the 400 amp mark. But it really means little. No OEM could care about this fact, as they are only concerned with 100 amps. Norfolk may need 200 amps.

    But I also have another takeaway, or question to ask our battery geeks. Wouldn't 400 amps with a lithium ion battery put the battery into thermal runway mode?

    AONE was rightfully and respectfully hammered upon during this conference. Thomas joked that AONE was once upgraded because a large order was CANCELED, meaning AONE wouldn't lose as much money. The more topline revenue AONE generates, the more money they lose, and the sorrier their bottomline will look.

    He added that he was in no way prepared to have a lawsuit because Axion shipped batteries before Axion was 100% completely sure they will work as advertised. Lessoned learned, at the expense of AONE.

    It was also discussed that AGM batteries do not perform as well in both winter and summer months, something that will not occur with the PbC.

    Another aspect I want to clarify is that I reported from the PowerCube unveiling that the PowerCube can respond in 250 milliseconds. The utility response time is 50 milliseconds.

    I did ask Thomas about why there had not been an increase in PbC 100,000 light duty cycles since last year. His response was plain and evident; no OEM cares about any battery that can exceed 100,000 cycles. That's already 8 1/2 years of durable battery life.

    The PowerCube -- What's great about having more boots on the ground this year was that it allowed for me to roll around away from groups. I had a wonderful, near private meeting with Enders Dickerson inside the PowerCube. The innards have slightly changed; it seemed there were more batteries than at the unveiling. But, only 100 kw was working. The full capacity of the PowerCube, a half megawatt, has never yet been used all at once. Further, I believe that the PowerCube is NOT running 24/7. It is not producing revenue (which I wouldn't expect this prototype to do yet anyway).

    What was really cool was to hear it shifting back and forth every 30 seconds or so, to flawlessly take in power, than a half minute later deliver power back into the grid. So smooth.

    Though my iPhone's screen is almost as big, watching the ups and downs in frequency fluctuations was exciting to see on the computer monitor. Perhaps the best feature the PbC holds over all other competitors is how fast the PbC can gain, accept or deliver a charge. In other words, the more, the faster the "needle" (say like taking your forefinger and quickly wiggling it up and down) the better the PbC outperforms all lithium, AGM and flooded lead acid batteries.

    Solar and Wind -- There doesn't seem to be any more coming from Envision Solar. But what holds great promise is that there are VERY FEW solar or wind farms that use batteries to store energy. In states like Washington, wind farms have been told to shut down for a stretch of time; there was no room in the grid to accept more electricity.

    It appears these are two other industries that have yet to understand or engage in the potential for storing generated electricity, to time shift it and then deliver the electricity later. I have no idea if FERC is involved with this.

    Bottom line is that there is almost and endless potential for the PbC, as well as other battery makers, with storage generated from wind and solar farms...already in existence.

    Capital Raise, Financing, and Forward Guidance -- It appears almost a lock that the next round of fund raising will occur during the coming fourth quarter. There was very little talked about this. I did, at the cocktail party, relate this column's concerns over how this would affect share pricing to Thomas, Charles Trego and Bob Avrill. Obviously, no one could comment. I did briefly ask Thomas about a "rights offering" or other cap raise ideas, but, as a lowly shareholder, I expected no answer, and quite appropriately, received none.

    Earlier, Thomas, at the morning Q&A, assured that he was very confident revenues were ramping quickly. Every single leader of Axion, all sitting up in front, all nodded their heads in agreement.

    This is extremely important: East Penn sales are ahead of schedule!

    It appears that as fast as Axion can make flooded batteries, East Penn is buying them. Surely, we would all like to see PbC sales ramping, too, but what I covet is that this big brother, East Penn, is helping its little brother hire people, give them work and allow shop workers to be properly trained for when PbC and 30HT sales begin to ramp.

    Sidebar Note -- Inventory: Remember that "small mountain" of empty battery casings I witnessed at the PowerCube unveiling? Well, there are still some battery casings stacked on skids. 62 skids in all, 13 holding 30HT casings. But nothing like how many there were back in November. It also seems that Axion is now having them made domestically, rather than importing them from China.

    I could easily crunch out the exact numbers of both PbC and 30HT casings, but to me, it really doesn't matter, as another casing order could arrive next week, or next month, an obvious eventuality.

    What was important, was to take a quick glance at the Clover Leaf facility and notice it held a different "hum or bustle" than in past times I visited. Seemed there were far more batteries being made, pushed around, of differing sizes.

    Al Marshall reported a huge charging room, lots of shelves, which I did not see in past trips.

    The Gen 2 Robotic Line -- Last year, we shareholders were allowed to gather closer to the Gen 2 line. This year we were cordoned off, maybe 25 feet away. Being that pictures were not allowed this year or last, I had to go on memory. Seems the Gen 2 line is running much more fluidly than last year. I noticed that there were more sensors, that the electrodes seemed to be passing smoothly from one station to the next, and the dwelling issues of the past, are now in the past. I did not time how long each dwelling time lasted, but it seemed to be between 12 and 15 seconds.

    Four people were working the line on this day. In the future, it is expected that only two supervisors will be needed per line. I was assured that when Axion needs to expand and add more Gen 2 lines, that there is plenty of factory floor space to hold up to 11 robotic lines.

    This is one crisp looking line of machines, the robots provided by Epson, and then modified at New Castle. I was glad to see no lab coats, no hair nets, and though this plant is spotless, there is no expensive clean room needed.

    Axionistas in New Castle -- I want to thank all the Axionistas that made this year's pilgrimage to New Castle. It was simply fantastic to share a fine dinner at the Wooden Angle, to now match names, voices and faces with the Seeking Alpha cyber avatars. The questions all of us asked were far more valuable to myself, to this blog, and even to Thomas Granville, than last year's Shareholders' Conference.

    It was great fun to watch from across the room us Axionistas fan out, meet and talk with Axion leadership, existing investors, lurkers, and other investing houses present. It was also great fun to know that we had a bunch of us with attentive ears, active questionings, and feet on the ground, learning all we could about Axion Power.

    The mood this year was more upbeat than ever. I asked several shop workers how they like working for Axion Power. To a man, they all said they loved it.

    In final, I want to validate that Thomas Granville reiterated his view that Axion Power will strive into profitability during 2013. I was the only one of everyone present, to ask any forward guidance question; intentionally loosely worded.

    Later on, I tapped Thomas on the back near the end of the cocktail party, and told him that he has trained us well.

    I hold zero doubts that Axion Power will achieve a significant YoY top line revenue growth, in the area of at least 300%.

    In conclusion, I don't expect PbC sales to take off in the next month or two, but I do feel strongly that we are on the tarmac, and, as Thomas Granville began this years' 2012 Shareholders' Conference, that Axion is, "About to take flight."

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    LINKS to valuable Axion Power Research and websites:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites created by APC commentator Bangwhiz it is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one; including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Axion Power Website, the first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

    Axion Power Chart Tracking, HTL tracks AXPW's intra-day charting.

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    WARNING: This is a troll free zone. We reserve the right to eliminate posts, or posters that are disruptive.

    Enjoy!

    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

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Comments (185)
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  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Eagle Pitcher layering different battery chemistry and format as a hybrid system.

     

    EaglePicher unveils giant PowerPyramid battery in Joplin

     

    http://bit.ly/Lf4sqz
    2 Jul 2012, 09:10 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    OK, I'll be the first to admit I have no idea what a "tubular" LA battery is??
    I'm wondering if they are using the Li-ion upper layer to allow for faster charging acceptance, and then slowly shuttling the power down through the layers to the LA batteries to do the main storage?
    2 Jul 2012, 11:03 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2097) | Send Message
     
    That battery system sounds complicated with many things that could go wrong. I think I'll stick with Axion and use the KISS principle.
    2 Jul 2012, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2097) | Send Message
     
    For you younger folks the KISS principle stands for "keep it simple, stupid".
    2 Jul 2012, 11:29 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    LabTech, I'm guessing spiral wound which is generally a higher power LAB AGM battery. Here's a well known brand. I'm pretty sure these are from JCI but Exide and others also manufacture the technology. They wind the anode, separator and cathode in a jelly role much like lithium ion cylindrical cells. Note that it looks kind of like a six pack for the spiral cells in the 12vdc package.

     

    http://bit.ly/KWfvUj
    2 Jul 2012, 11:44 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Or for today's ultra sensitive American. The KIS principal. :)
    2 Jul 2012, 11:47 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Personally I always favored my very own inverse KISS principal which I felt management often followed - "Keep It Stupid, Simpleton".

     

    HardToLove
    2 Jul 2012, 11:56 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    Tubular architecture is used extensively for deep-discharge industrial batteries like lift trucks and the like.

     

    There's a good explanation of the battery design here:

     

    http://bit.ly/MObdvd
    2 Jul 2012, 12:17 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Thanks John, I was unaware of that tech. until now.
    2 Jul 2012, 12:34 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    Beyond knowing what that architecture exists for deep cycle industrial use, I'm very ignorant about the details and refinements.
    2 Jul 2012, 12:49 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    I've not read it yet.

     

    http://bit.ly/MRb4ak

     

    Plus the conference John is presenting at in Europe this year has a presenter on the topic (pg 10).

     

    "Hybridisation of lead-acid and lithium ion
    batteries for off-grid stationary applications"

     

    http://bit.ly/P5miha
    3 Jul 2012, 08:24 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Enders Dickenson (AXPW) is also presenting.

     

    HardToLove
    3 Jul 2012, 08:55 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    Suggested listening as you read all the references:
    http://bit.ly/N6mwAR
    3 Jul 2012, 09:56 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    Thanks John. I assumed it wasn't the same as spiral wound batteries, but didn't have a clue beyond that.
    3 Jul 2012, 10:18 AM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9597) | Send Message
     
    “'Equal Pay' for Demand Response Goes to Court"

     

    -- U.S. utility trade groups are asking a federal court to overturn a key ruling on demand response -- let’s call it equal pay for negawatts -- in a move that could undercut one of the industry's brightest hopes for expanding investment in the business of turning down power.

     

    http://bit.ly/LL8OnC

     

    (Apologies if this article has already been posted. I highly recommend reading this "case" as it possibly sheds light on why PowerCube news is off stage right now.)
    2 Jul 2012, 01:01 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9597) | Send Message
     
    More emerging today about FERC rules. The below article is about new federal rules for wind and solar power:

     

    --“Attempting to fit variable renewable energy resources into these [dated] operating practices is often like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.”

     

    http://bit.ly/NpfKm2-/
    2 Jul 2012, 01:20 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9597) | Send Message
     
    Fantastic study debunking myths about idling. If you think you will be idling longer than 10 seconds, this study says you should turn off your car. Also, idling is "bad" for your engine...something I did not before know:

     

    http://bit.ly/N6UFAW
    2 Jul 2012, 01:33 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    Maya,
    I've read these before in a different publication. My problem is with myth 3:
    "Myth 3: Repeatedly restarting your car is hard on the engine and quickly drains the battery.
    Wrong. Frequently restarting your engine does negligible damage to the engine and does not drain modern batteries excessively. In fact, the opposite is true; idling an engine forces it to operate in a very inefficient and gasoline-rich mode that, over time, can degrade the engine’s performance and reduce mileage."
    It may not be hard on the engine, but we've commented in the past that it is hard on the car's starter and that's why autos with SS function need to upgrade this.
    2 Jul 2012, 04:31 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2556) | Send Message
     
    Maya -

     

    Not sure if you noticed it, but this article was also posted the other day regarding FERC.

     

    http://onforb.es/LDJqLT

     

    "Chairman Jon Wellinghoff has been rapidly reshaping the formerly sclerotic electricity sector to make it responsive to new technologies."

     

    Wellinghoff was originally a Bush appointee and his term is up next year. It would appear we should hope he gets another term.
    2 Jul 2012, 01:47 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9597) | Send Message
     
    Stefan: Yep. Caught it. I agree, the old coot should get another term.
    2 Jul 2012, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2556) | Send Message
     
    Interesting rundown of Start Stop tech from EE&T.

     

    http://bit.ly/LfKjRf

     

    Discussion of AGM batteries as well ...
    2 Jul 2012, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    GE hybrid loco "science video". Nice piece.

     

    http://bit.ly/NXuOZs
    2 Jul 2012, 04:45 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Hmmm, No AH trades again thus far. I hope D.G. doesn't dine on expensive fair. His Axion sales will have problems keeping up with lunch money for the family at the current sales pace.

     

    Or if he waits a little longer he can use his Axion proceeds to buy his solar dream out of BK.

     

    http://bit.ly/LPmavx
    2 Jul 2012, 05:17 PM Reply Like
  • Articula
    , contributor
    Comments (245) | Send Message
     
    Holiday week, I fully expect volumes to be real low followed by a surge next week.
    2 Jul 2012, 05:28 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for your perspective Articula. You're probably right.
    2 Jul 2012, 05:59 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Sorry if this was posted already

     

    Nissan Leaf Arizona Battery Problem Thickens

     

    http://bit.ly/LLUIlM
    2 Jul 2012, 10:26 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1417) | Send Message
     
    WOW! What were the battery manufacturers smoking when they sold the auto manufacturers on these types of batteries. And how did the car manufacturers decide these types of batteries would work?

     

    Was there any of the DD that Axion is being placed through?

     

    I'm sorry if this is just too basic a question. But, I'd love to know how these types of batteries were selected and tested.
    2 Jul 2012, 11:42 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    This is one to watch. Automakers would, just like with Axion, beat these systems to death. They would have run very rigorous testing in labs (humidity, vibration, G-force, emi, freeze thaw, extreme charge/discharge etc., hot and cold proving grounds (extreme temp. with abuse) and also in fleets. These could be infant mortality cases at the tail of the bell shaped curve.

     

    Or it could get ugly if something was unforeseen

     

    BTW, This is also why a slow take up can be a good/bad kind of thing. Higher sales are almost always appreciated. But with new tech. sometimes slower is better. Death by a thousand cuts is better than death by a million!
    3 Jul 2012, 12:22 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2556) | Send Message
     
    Thotdoc - That question has always annoyed me.
    3 Jul 2012, 09:14 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    thordoc,
    Nissan decided to go cheap and try and get by with passive air cooling for their battery pack instead of a more expensive battery that had an active cooling unit. They are already finding out in hot areas like Arizona and Texas that it won't work. Can you say..."RECALL".
    3 Jul 2012, 10:35 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1417) | Send Message
     
    I'm a bit confused: I thought it was fairly common knowledge that lithium batteries did not do well in extreme heat and cold.. I've always wondered why they were used.

     

    But, as I said, I could be confused about that too.
    3 Jul 2012, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    thotdoc, You are not confused by any means. But we do not know how Nissan is dissipating the heat during the charge and discharge cycles of the battery. There are numerous ways to do this with passive means as well as active means such as water recirculation. They could be adding levels of heat sinks, managing air flow etc.

     

    BTW, They also have cell temperatures being monitored via the BMS so they are also making sure the pack stays within design parameters.

     

    But you are correct. Any way you slice it spending time sitting or functioning at elevated temps is wearing out the battery faster. If they didn't put enough safety factor into the pack to assure life over the warranty period they will be in trouble. Or if they missed something based on their design or testing.

     

    Time will tell us if they missed or not. I'm sure they already know if the odds are increasing that they are in trouble. This they will not share because they want to get as much use out of the pack as possible before it's replaced and they will probably fix problems as "customer satisfaction campaigns" and not recalls. Negative perceptions surround recalls so these are generally reserved for things that fail FMVSS. (federal motor vehicle safety standards).

     

    One exception though. They have to be aggressive to make sure peoples perceptions are managed. They could be OK but they have to make sure people do not get negative impressions and stop buying. Or if things are not OK they need to fix it ASAP.

     

    So we wait and watch.
    3 Jul 2012, 03:25 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2235) | Send Message
     
    Anyone care to hazard a guess for Axion's Q2 2012 sales?
    3 Jul 2012, 12:06 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    Depends on the terms of the NS 999 contract?

     

    What are the rules if there is a down payment and then a payment upon final delivery?

     

    No big surprise, but my Altoona contact today said NS 999 hasn't moved.

     

    I will ask again on August 1. Someone that took the tour at the Annual Meeting said they were witnessing PbC production for NS, right? So the odds would favor it wasn't complete by 6/30.

     

    What I'd really like to know is if the massive heat wave will lead to a significant increase in Flooded Battery Sales in the 3rd Quarter. Related question, how fast could the company ramp up if they were asked to on the flooded side, and would doing so impact the NSC order completion, and hopefully the Ft. Meade order?

     

    On the other hand, given the mild US winter in much of the country, it may not have been hot long enough to "burn" off the excess inventory yet.

     

    Given the MiniCube has to wait an unpredictable time on UL certification, I doubt they're going to be building much of anything ahead of time for that market. Even if pre-orders are taken at the September show, some of them could also get pulled if the delay drags out too long.
    3 Jul 2012, 12:31 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    I would expect their flooded sales to be much better after the warm winter inventory burn off. I would expect seasonal classic sales to peak but be about the same YOY. PBC not huge but up from here.

     

    Any more than that is just a bigger WAG.

     

    Oops, Someone threw a turkey bone in with my chicken bones. Disregard my reading. My crystal ball is back from shining tomorrow if you want a better read. :)

     

    Testing.

     

    http://bit.ly/LUhYjt
    3 Jul 2012, 12:35 AM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (673) | Send Message
     
    Just a reminder for the delivery window to NSC. (I tend to forget) The order was received at the end of April for a 90-120 day time frame. The end of July would be 90 days.
    3 Jul 2012, 06:37 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1505) | Send Message
     
    iindelco,
    Waiting for your crystal ball to return as your bone readings just seem to be fowl talk with really no hard science backing their predictive ability.

     

    No idea what to expect on toll contract revenues: PbC revenues, if NS contract is included, somewhere around $550,000 - just throwing in revenue from some test batteries as an optimistic gesture. My WAG using the empirically proven Hairy Dog Guesstimator.
    3 Jul 2012, 07:10 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3929) | Send Message
     
    Assuming NSC contract revenues will be realized in Q3, toll contract and classic car battery revenues of $1.6 million, PbC sales of $15k (Net zero Washington Navy yard project).
    3 Jul 2012, 09:06 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Frost & Sullivan analysis suggests momentum toward supplementary 48V on-board power-net

     

    http://bit.ly/NYJBms
    3 Jul 2012, 01:06 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1505) | Send Message
     
    MKG (More Knowledgeable Gentlemen),

     

    Would the below info from iindelco's link be a good match PbC attributes?

     

    "The 48V on-board power-net would supplement the 12V net for high-power applications such as Electric Power Steering (EPS), Brake-by-wire (http://bit.ly/M2Y7cN) and Heating, Ventilation & Air-conditioning (HVAC) systems."

     

    Thanks for any responses.
    metroneanderthal
    3 Jul 2012, 07:21 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    I like how somewhere along the line the BBW (Brake By Wire) turned into the stock symbol (Build A Bear).

     

    Build A Bear has twice the market cap of Axion. Just sayin. What's that song R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Axionistas, The Rodney Dangerfield investment group.

     

    Anyway, Three 16VDC PBC's right sized for the task, self balancing, and we're off. I wonder if, even with their increased charge decay due to their capacitive nature, such a configuration could still start a car satisfying the airport test.
    3 Jul 2012, 08:18 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    From a Storage Newsletter out of Paris:

     

    Residential Solar Storage: Germany considers subsidizing PV storage: As it announced its modified solar Feed-In-Tariff scheme (FIT – the prices at which the utility purchases electricity from solar and wind installations), the Germany government announced it would create an incentive program for decentralized solar energy storage. The program is to be implemented by the end of the year and will consist a €50m grant supporting low-interest loans offered by KfW (a government development bank)

     

    ***

     

    But this is the second sign in three months that the German government recognizes the importance of energy storage; in April when capital subsidies for fuel cells were introduced, there was a requirement that projects integrate some sort of energy storage capability. Germany is perhaps realizing it faces a daunting energy storage problem in integrating renewable energy, especially with the planned addition of huge offshore wind resources.

     

    We still remain cautious given that the market for residential solar storage is highly uncertain and that there are many players already (reportedly 140 solutions were on display at InterSolar).
    3 Jul 2012, 09:00 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    (AXPW) 7/2/2012 EOD stuff.
    # Trds: 29, MinTrSz: 300, MaxTrSz: 20000, Vol 155306, AvTrSz: 5355
    Min. Pr: 0.3350, Max Pr: 0.3500, VW Avg. Trade Pr: 0.3486
    # Buys, Shares: 27 152306, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.3488
    # Sells, Shares: 2 3000, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.3383
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 50.77:1, DlyShts 38196, 24.6%

     

    Notable is the buy sell ratio (98% buys) with average trade size indicating retail buyers (the 4 averages are 4548K, 5131K, 5185K and 4706K). The 10, 25, 50 and 100-day averages are 0.74%, 0.63%, 0.56% and 0.49%. So we have some bullish sentiment out there (recall that we've seen some elevated percentages recently) but not enough volume to overcome whomever is doing the $0.35 capping ATM.

     

    Also note the short sales percentage is right at "normal" with the 10, 25, 50 and 100-day averages being 0.258%, 0.249%, 0.216% and 0.21% respectively (all rounded).

     

    How about VWAP? Well, as we already know, our top has been capped at $0.35 and spread has been narrow. The averages for it tell us we aren't going anywhere fast or soon: $0.3444, $0.3377, $0.3701 and $0.3894.

     

    Volume remains below the similar period averages of 165K, 186K, 271K and 255K.

     

    No change in behavior expected yet.

     

    HardToLove
    3 Jul 2012, 09:34 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (971) | Send Message
     
    "Grinding Energy Shortage Takes Toll on India's Growth"

     

    http://on.wsj.com/O0egjB

     

    Grinding Energy Shortage Takes Toll on India's Growth - a timely under the radar solution...Axion Power (AXPW) - *****BMW...Norfolk Southern in final testing /due diligence

     

    Dear Mr. Chaudrhi:

     

    In response to reading the article referenced above in the Wall Street Journal, I couldn't help but think of a critical "ready to go" initial energy storage solution.
    India is in dire straits, and the energy challenge has yet to be addressed successfully by any country.
    Many of the anecdotal power issues stated in your article can be addressed today.
    We (world wide) will get there, but India especially cannot wait any longer.
    This is one solution that can jump start India today.

     

    I suspect you will receive many "sales" calls and "sales" emails.
    I am not a salesman.
    In full disclosure, I am a stock holder and have been following Axion Power (AXPW) for over two (2) years.

     

    I would strongly encourage you to assign one of your analysts to perform due diligence on AXPW.
    (strong energy, grid, battery background)

     

    Due to many articles, blogs and blog commenters, there is are several ready made resource analysis material with input from many intelligent contributors and authors, specifically, John Petersen. (see Seeking Alpha Blogs)

     

    BMW, Norfolk Southern Railroad, GM and Ford et al have performed extensive due diligence and final stage testing, and now home delivery functionality.

     

    LINKS to valuable Axion Power Research and websites:

     

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one; including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

     

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

     

    Axion Power Website, the first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

     

    Axion Power Chart Tracking, tracks AXPW's intra-day charting.

     

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites

     

    http://bit.ly/rXixeb

     

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site

     

    http://bit.ly/w6dxSz

     

    Axion Power Chart Tracking

     

    http://bit.ly/LVroLx

     

    Amol Sharma...

     

    I would also encourage you as a business journalist to explore further the energy storage conundrum.

     

    There are many companies and individuals hard at work.

     

    There will be several solutions to a varying degree of success.

     

    I would suggest expending some research time on AXPW and other small companies versus the much hyped and significantly misunderstood electric car.

     

    The AXPWs of the world are not government subsidized...too many electric car and lithium battery companies are with no practical or viable success to date.

     

    And AXPW is ready to go.

     

    I'd suggest exploring their existing partnerships.

     

    It was sad to read the article, knowing the world can help much more today!

     

    Sincerely,

     

    Joseph A. Phillion
    3 Jul 2012, 10:28 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1505) | Send Message
     
    magounsq,
    Nice response. Have saved it for adaption for my own future use.
    3 Jul 2012, 11:36 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (971) | Send Message
     
    Forwarded to Rudy also...
    Allen & Caron, Inc.
    Rudy Barrio (Investors)
    r.barrio@allencaron.com

     

    ...and two (2) other WJS writers.

     

    If they can't find AXPW ...AXPW has to find and teach them!

     

    Ya neva know!
    3 Jul 2012, 06:40 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Who'da thunk it. But they'll be cheaper than that in passenger cars because it's easier and safer to put chemicla storage in a moving vehicle vs a box. :))

     

    Grid Storage Battery Cost to Fall to $500/kWh, Short of Expectations

     

    http://reut.rs/N5H5dh
    3 Jul 2012, 10:56 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    I have a copy of the Lux report and they include everything but the kitchen sink in their calculations including land, construction costs, temperature control system, power control system, battery management system, together with cell and pack costs.

     

    The entertaining part of all this is comparing today's Lux forecast with Sandia's SEGIS-ES forecast from July 2008 (see page 22)

     

    http://bit.ly/KYfpLN

     

    Lux did not discuss asymmetric lead-carbon in their report, although they did mention Axion in passing.
    3 Jul 2012, 11:29 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Yes, I've seen that.

     

    Maybe electrons to hydrogen is the way to go. You can store it in Zeppelins and float around until you need it. Got a match?

     

    Of coarse transport is a problem. And I've not looked into round trip efficiency.

     

    Thanks to china on the CBAK board.

     

    http://bit.ly/M4bBGK
    3 Jul 2012, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: Agreed. So far, the efficiency of "power to gas" is woefully low. The world needs an effective and CHEAP catalyst to improve the efficiency of electrolysis to the 90+% range.

     

    Storing and moving H2 in useful amounts is still in the "wouldn't it be nice" stage. Although I do like the idea of a "zeppelin" type craft to store and move H2 ;-) With the newer high strength carbon fibers maybe the zep could contain long tubular tanks with 10x atm pressure. Sigh. I really like big balloons :-)
    3 Jul 2012, 01:05 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    I liked the idea they forwarded that the energy could be converted to H2 or add CO to it to make methane that could later be burned for energy. Just what the green initiative wants, using solar or wind power to generate something that can be burned as fuel! Duh!
    3 Jul 2012, 04:15 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Again, The Ultrabattery mentioned. Hello Axion/Rosewater. Anybody home?

     

    Breaking the renewable energy barrier

     

    http://bit.ly/LVxICP
    3 Jul 2012, 11:09 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2556) | Send Message
     
    Makes me think of Mcfly, lol ...

     

    Hopefully, Rosewater will update this section of their website soon, since this appears to be their focus.

     

    http://bit.ly/LuUGw1
    3 Jul 2012, 11:44 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1505) | Send Message
     
    iindelco,
    I was going to respond to the article a lá magounsq. However, the author, Maria Skyllas-Kazacos, works in the development on the flow type VRB (vanadium redox battery) for University of New South Wales - where it was pioneered. Hardly an unbiased article.

     

    "The cost per kWh of generated energy of a VRB system can be less than half that of an equivalent lead-acid battery system for storage capacities in excess of four hours. This makes the VRB one of the cheapest energy storage technologies for large-scale renewable energy storage.

     

    Several companies are now commercially manufacturing VRB systems, and VRB is likely to be of the leading battery technologies in the expanding global energy storage market being fuelled by the push towards renewables and the smart grid.

     

    Maria Skyllas-Kazacos works on the VRB development for UNSW. VRB was funded by NERDDC, ERDC, NSW Office of Minerals and Energy, Mitsubishi Chemicals, ARC and REDI between 1986 and 2007. The VRB technology is owned by UNSW/New South Innovation, and Maria provides support for their licensing efforts as required."
    3 Jul 2012, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4427) | Send Message
     
    >metroneanderthal ... I have always thought that the Axion PbC would be complimentary technology to battery types like a VRB or ZB because of it's ability to accept charge rates far in excess and recharge the system at more controlled rates. In addition, discharge peaks and response times are higher with a PbC.

     

    Always a high probability that I've got this mixed battery type system wrong but it would seem to make sense. Some one please set me straight.
    3 Jul 2012, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    Since the Ultrabattery came out of Australia's Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation you can't complain too much when they get favorable mention in the Australian press.
    3 Jul 2012, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    The VRB hype is a bit overdone. According to Lux a 600 kW, 2.2 MWh VRB system will cost $1,250 per kWh today and over $900 in 2022.
    3 Jul 2012, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2556) | Send Message
     
    Good point, they also mentioned Redflow (another aussie company) rather than ZBB ...
    3 Jul 2012, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Think Mcfly think.

     

    http://bit.ly/MRGNYJ
    3 Jul 2012, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2556) | Send Message
     
    Does it compare it to a ZB flow battery or are they lumped together?
    3 Jul 2012, 12:48 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    They didn't include Zinc Bromine in the analysis this time, just lithium-ion, molten salt and vanadium flow
    3 Jul 2012, 01:06 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    250k shares between 32 and 34 cents on the bid, not including the depth, if any. Not bad at all.
    3 Jul 2012, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    MrI: In my tin-foil hat, jaded view, that's just "a floor" to be sure those that want $0.35, or very near, can get it.

     

    Without volume on actual trades coming at higher prices, I think it means nothing - little folks that might want in have no choice but to come in above that bid and that bid is *not* moving up (speaking over days and weeks) as if they really had any interest.

     

    On top of that, the majority, ATM, is from UBSS and PERT, where I've not observed much price movement for a long time over the weeks we watch them. Add in Night Capital (NITE), EGRO, ARCA, ATDF (new in recent days) showing "standard" blocks (except ATDF) and we have no idea how much they really have lined up at $0.35 to dispose of.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    3 Jul 2012, 11:53 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1505) | Send Message
     
    Mr Investor,
    How has that compared with recent weeks/months, as don't have point of perspective?
    3 Jul 2012, 11:54 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    Sounds like my working theory about Blackrock being on the sell side because of their internal turmoil may be right. If the FINRA short data is a reliable indicator of what they've sold in combination with Quercus, I'd say they have just under 2 million shares left. Once the inventory liquidation sale is over, I don't see anybody else out there with weight.
    3 Jul 2012, 12:32 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    metro--A bit more shares at the various Level II bids. About 100k at 33 cents has been there a couple weeks, but the other bids fluctuate, with this morning's a bit higher in total.

     

    I've been in the camp that says a lot of supply at 35 cents or so. I just hope Manny Hill doesn't start selling, too. Also, no obvious sign the BK shares are being sold. So maybe they ARE sticky. Anyone find the 6/29 report? Is it relevant to us? Thx.

     

    I've also been in the camp that says that the other side of the story has largely not been discussed--the buy side. Lots of big selling, but too bad we haven't seen much big buying. Well, Special Sits bought back a bunch, but where are the other believers? Once/if we see the large sellers exhausted AND big buying, then we REALLY get what we've all been here for. An even bigger move up then just from the end of big selling. But I guess we've set the bar low, so just the end of big selling would be a big improvement.

     

    HTL--Looks like ATDF has taken the place of AUTO. Also saw 50k shares more on the bid, then the ask, then neither. Lil break dance?
    3 Jul 2012, 12:53 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    If they are down around 2M, they and Mega-C BK shares (Was it 2M?) combined w/b ~4M? Add in Quercus for another ~800K. If all are entering at the same time and we don't see some volume change, we'd be stuck here only 17 - 30 more days, if our daily volume hangs in around one of the numbers I posted this A.M. (156K-271K min/max average per day) and no other biggies appear.

     

    So in ~1.5 calendar months we'd be out of this range-bound trading just via exhaustion of these sellers.

     

    Personally, I hope they go non-stop so we can get this mess out of the way without the summertime price slump we've seen over the last years. If they are putting in an artificial floor, new buyers will still be getting a great price with minimal downside risk.

     

    My "grind lower" scenario doesn't envision hitting at or below $0.30 so far.

     

    We've already slumped enough - no more needed!

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    3 Jul 2012, 01:09 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    MrI: GASP! "Lil break dance" certainly doesn't reference "quote stuffing" does it? Why, we know such underhanded, misleading, slimy, ... tactics have never been used in our "level playing-field" markets.

     

    Seriously though, coming into a holiday I wouldn't be surprised if folks just wrapping up early put in and then withdrew some potential trades so they go home "clean".

     

    Nothing but a SWAG,
    HardToLove
    3 Jul 2012, 03:12 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    HTL, yeah, I'm thinking the same thing. Also, the number of shares at the 34 cent bid and the 35 or so cents ask were kinda matching up volume as time went on. I suppose one side was trying to get the other to come to it. Didn't work. We'll see what happens after the 4th.

     

    Kinda fun for this non-trader to watch it play out, when we're in a post-shareholders' mtg news vacuum ATM.
    3 Jul 2012, 03:37 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    MrI: "... when we're in a post-shareholders' mtg news vacuum ATM".

     

    I'll tell ya what I *think* I'm looking forward to - next Q report (mid Aug? John or anybody?).

     

    1) It's 1.5 calendar months away, enough time for any big sellers we think are currently active to be out of the way if they remain "steady on".
    2) If JP's rough estimates about revenue increases are in the ballpark, the results should be some nice PR and some momo rags (figuratively) noting the YoY and Q/Q revenue ramps.
    3) We'll be getting near end-of-summer doldrums (another couple of weeks) when interest and volume might return to the markets generally.
    4) I never discount the possibility of a "surprise" announcement of something coming to fruition and/or something we hadn't even consider popping up. Time passes and progress is made "behind the scenes" regardless of our impatience.

     

    Add in the link below from Iindelco about the Jags using a two-battery system and we might be closer than we think in that area? A high-profile high-end auto manufacturer using that system may lend "gravitas" that other auto makers will heed? It's a long-shot, admittedly, but if I have to smoke hopium, might as well be "The Good Stuff"? :-))

     

    HardToLove
    3 Jul 2012, 04:03 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Last year was before the market opened on Tuesday August 16th. The 16th this year is a Thurs. so then or up to two days earlier would be my guess. They usually advise beforehand so that's a plus.
    3 Jul 2012, 04:13 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2556) | Send Message
     
    Did I not see the Jag link? Could you repost? TIA
    3 Jul 2012, 04:26 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    HTL, I think we have a couple industry conferences coming up, too, with Axion speaking. Can't remember when those were. And the Sept. Home Show or whatever they're calling it in Indiana.

     

    We may have to come up with our own "Company Events" calendar. Bang, I'm sure you've got plenty of free time to do one, lol.
    3 Jul 2012, 05:28 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    Mr I, An event calendar is a great idea. I need all the help I can get remembering dates like when can the folks who brokered the last raise start selling? The date that I really like to know is when everyone else will start buying...
    3 Jul 2012, 05:59 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/Nu0BA2
    3 Jul 2012, 05:59 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    Tim E, Monday, 9/10/2012. ha

     

    Yeah, it would be really helpful to have it be fairly comprehensive--dates of company presentations (industry conferences and mtgs, qrtly results, annual mtgs, etc.), shareholder dates (placement agent unlock date, warrant expiration date, BK shares available to sell date, Quercus allowed sell dates, capital needed by date, major holders' filing dates, etc.), customer delivery dates and timelines (90-120 day NS dates, how long it's been since BMW started testing, military delivery dates, etc.), industry dates (FERC Order 755 expected dates, Exide's earnings announcement date, etc.) and anything else Axionistas think may be important.
    3 Jul 2012, 08:09 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    ArcActive........... Again.

     

    Sounds like Axion all those years ago with one exception. Axion has the patents. I hope Axion has or has applied for one in Germany.

     

    http://bit.ly/R40H66
    3 Jul 2012, 01:13 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    IINDelco,
    I noticed that they were careful to never mention what the negative electrode was made of. Tells you right there they don't have it patent protected yet.
    3 Jul 2012, 01:24 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Labtech, Older articles have made it clear that the negative electrode is carbon. Now they could get patents in other markets excluding Axion.

     

    But they still have the development curve and we know how that will go. By the time they launch Axion will be a billion dollar company or gone (If gone hopefully for a nice price).
    3 Jul 2012, 01:28 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2556) | Send Message
     
    "At the moment, it takes the company a week to make one electrode."
    3 Jul 2012, 01:46 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Yes Stefan, For long term Axion holders this should be like Deja Vu.
    3 Jul 2012, 01:50 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    (AXPW): 7/3/2012 Shortened trading day EOD stuff, less short sales.

     

    Talk about price compression! Check the 2/100ths of a penny spread below!

     

    # Trds: 19, MinTrSz: 200, MaxTrSz: 15000, Vol 68869, AvTrSz: 3625
    Min. Pr: 0.3498, Max Pr: 0.3500, VW Avg. Trade Pr: 0.3499
    # Buys, Shares: 18 58869, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.3499
    # Sells, Shares: 1 10000, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.3498
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 5.89:1 (85% "buy").

     

    HardToLove
    3 Jul 2012, 01:35 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    (AXPW) EOD Daily short sales came in at 9588, 13.9% - below all the averages. Combined with the *extreme* price compression, daily volume below all moving averages, trade size below all moving averages, and buy:sell *above* all the averages, we can surmise ... it means nothing because we were entering a holiday.

     

    Or we can ignore that and say the trends strongly suggest a change is in the offing. The important price stuff says flat or down, except for the compression and the fact that it refuses, so far, to be forced lower in spite of the $0.35 cap being applied by some folks. And this with falling volume, which under these conditions would suggest we should have headed for the basement already, rather than having climbed out of it, which we did since 6/13.

     

    We can also look at the newly discovered (for me) "stealth bullishness" and conclude that a push down very far seems *highly* unlikely.

     

    And this with some unknown seller (it's been suggested Blackrock is the culprit and there is a possibility of Mega-C shares) and Quercus are feeding shares to the market simultaneously.

     

    As long as the market-maker has reason to keep price up here to satisfy their larger customer(s), I expect a severe drop is impossible.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    5 Jul 2012, 08:49 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    For whoever was asking about a two battery system offering for SS.

     

    "Having come to a halt and shut down the engine, the Intelligent Stop/Start system is able to restart smoothly in less time than it takes for the driver’s foot to release the brake pedal and depress the accelerator. It does so by utilizing a Twin Solenoid Starter (TSS) mechanism that features its own secondary battery to ensure that in-car systems requiring power are not affected."

     

    http://bit.ly/Nu0BA2
    3 Jul 2012, 01:39 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2164) | Send Message
     
    Ideas for Branding and Marketing

     

    I have been thinking that “lead” is a pretty bad word to be associated with Axion. The connotations of lead include: lead poisoning, lead pollution, lead as imitation gold, “dull as lead”, “Eat lead, gook!”, etc. In batteries (outside of select battery geekdoms) it is old-fashioned and boring. To consumers, it doesn't start the car, run downs, might burn you with sulfuric acid, and definitely is not cool or sexy. Overall, less than positive.

     

    What innovative, unique name can we use to describe Axion's product? I am surprised “PbC” was trademarkable, any more than H2O or NaCl. “P-B-C” has no connotations except to chemistry types, but does not convey anything particularly positive. It is nice to have, but is not a strong name to hang our brand on.

     

    Other battery chemistries are not particularly clear; NiMH says nothing about what is the “M”. “Lithium batteries” has a wide variety of other active elements which are rarely disclosed in informal discussion. “Li-ion” is close to “lion”, a positive connotation as king of batteries / beasts.

     

    My understanding is that all of Axion's carbon is from biologic sources: coconut shells. Coconut shells are basically a waste product; coconuts are grown for their meat and oil. Coconut shells are a version of carbon sequestration. Traditionally coco shell was burned at the plantations into CO2; now Axion is capturing the carbon for permanent use in highly recyclable batteries. Eventually Axion will responsible for tons of CO2 capture and sequestration.

     

    In contrast, the East Penn Ultrabattery uses a carbon paste made from carbon black (a residue from petroleum refining) and graphite (a mined mineral).

     

    I propose we call Axion batteries “Bio-carbon batteries”.

     

    Not “lead carbon”, other people can use that, too. Not “Advanced Lead Acid”, sounds like advanced buggy whips. Not “PbC”, it doesn't mean anything to 90% of the world, and is negative to the other 9.999%. We are “Axion, the Bio-Carbon Battery company”.

     

    If/when we get to co-branding with major battery manufacturers, we can push for “Axionized with bio-carbon” as a tag line, similar to “Intel Inside” on most computers.

     

    Comments?
    3 Jul 2012, 01:46 PM Reply Like
  • MitchS
    , contributor
    Comments (47) | Send Message
     
    Rick,
    I agree 100%. Excellent observation and proposal. "Perception is reality" IS reality.

     

    Additionally, coconut oil and coconut water have become quite popular recently in the health and athletic food markets. Playing off that a bit could only help.

     

    Mitch
    3 Jul 2012, 01:53 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    Rick, I say you're on to something valid. I almost wrote something similar (though more juvenile and not as substantive) a couple of days back when Vani's comments about being asked the wrong questions were being kicked around. Basically, my thought was that anything "lead-acid" , regardless of whether advanced or carbon is in the mix, anything lead-acid is so entrenched in concept in everyone's minds that it's a huge obstacle. Virtually everyone who's anyone already thinks they know all there is to know about lead-acid and so their minds are somewhat closed to truly new information. It's just too big a stumbling block. Everyone wants to treat the PbC like just another flavor of lead-acid and of course that just totally misses the point completely. Thus all the "wrong" questions, and Vani's quandary. I think on one hand Axion wanted the legitimacy and gravitas that association with established lead-acid infrastructure would connote, but in so doing they sacrificed the appeal, differentiation, and memorability that a more novel moniker would have provided. In hindsight, it might have been so much better even calling the PbC a "carbon-acid" battery... In the end, down the road, I guess it won't /shouldn't matter (when Axion will be a household name ;) but for now, it does seem to make the hill a bit harder to climb...
    3 Jul 2012, 02:07 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Rick, I also am less than enthused with the current tagging of the product. It's marketability is getting lost with the PBC scientific meaning associated with the Ultrabattery and the advanced lead is getting mixed up with lead additives on competitors carbon enhanced batteries.

     

    I guess I don't have an answer right away but I do want to support your thoughts that the current designations are not working from my perspective. We're getting blended in a slurry of lead.
    3 Jul 2012, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    I was always fond of the original designation "E3Supercell" but it ran into trademark problems.
    3 Jul 2012, 02:14 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (966) | Send Message
     
    i don't buy a marketing problem as far as customers go. investors, maybe, but i'd expect potential clients to be paying attention to delivery and performance.
    3 Jul 2012, 02:22 PM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1826) | Send Message
     
    Rick, I have actually been thinking the same thing for a few weeks now.

     

    We need something sexy. Lead is not at all sexy. Though we can't take it out of the battery we should try to take lead completely out of the product name.

     

    Like the way 'fried' is not sexy so Kentucky Fried Chicken became 'KFC'.

     

    So what is sexy? Nano anything is sexy.

     

    Even if it's not the most accurate description, would it be inaccurate to call it 'The Nano-Carbon battery'?

     

    D
    3 Jul 2012, 02:22 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Good thoughts Rick! But we need a contrarian POV, so ...

     

    Who are our customers? Not end-use consumers. Rosewater might address them and should call their product something more consumer-friendly.

     

    Most of our customers are industrials - auto makers, railroads, oil drillers (maybe), ... and *definitely* battery manufacturers, under our business model of supplying electrodes to them.

     

    I think in these cases PbC" and "lead-acid" have a positive connotation because it is a known quantity. Ref SHB's discussion of how engineers like to deal with things with which they are already familiar.

     

    So I'm thinking that "branding" that is ... "attractive"(?) to our intended audience should be used. "PbC" and "lead-acid" seem to fill the bill in that regard.

     

    Products that are developed for other audiences might benefit from an alternative branding.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    3 Jul 2012, 02:23 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    Copy that HTL, your point certainly makes logical sense, but then why is Vani complaining that everyone is "always asking him the wrong questions" about PbC? (if I have that paraphrase right)
    3 Jul 2012, 02:31 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    I'm certainly no expert, but ...

     

    Let's dispense with the easy one first. Wrong questions wouldn't be rectified by any change in branding AFAICT. Wrong questions are a context and background issue, IMO, combined with ignorance about the new product (and maybe it's applications and intended effects?).

     

    I believe all of us initially think in channels developed by past exposure and experience. If I'm a hammer, everything's a nail. If I'm an auto guy doing electrical systems of various types (SLI, e.g.) I start off asking questions from the context of my past experience.

     

    So, just like continuing education programs are intended to do, folks need to get brought on-board with both new technologies and new ways of looking at and thinking of things before they tend to "break out" of the long-established channels that served them well in the past.

     

    ThotDoc can probably shed some light on this issue.

     

    Just as a little background: I did very well in my computer career because I was never locked into channels and when push came to shove and others came with impossible time-frames to get the job done using traditional means, I often applied unconventional means to get the same thing done using (abusing?) some existing tool (e.g. using an unorthodox combination of IBM utilities instead of custom programs to accomplish some task that others wanted to program).

     

    I make the (possibly erroneous) assumption that people in general have a lot of behavioral traits in common and what I observed might be generally applicable.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    3 Jul 2012, 02:44 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4427) | Send Message
     
    >Rick Krementz ... Per the latest Axion patent:

     

    http://1.usa.gov/NuktD9

     

    per JP's comment in APC #111; "My personal favorite claim is #10 which talks about using a conductive diamond coating on the current collector"

     

    Marketing slogan: "A Battery Tough as Diamond"
    3 Jul 2012, 02:59 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    Sure would be nice to get more info from Vani, to first determine what the problem really is. You have a group of large prospective auto manufacturing customers (e.g., BMW, GM, Ford) that I would think already largely understand PbC's role, as well as NS, Viridity, and Rosewater's retail customers who have been to New Castle already.

     

    So who doesn't get it, exactly? The other auto companies? Other RRs? PC prospects? Is Vani able to get first appointments, but not follow-up ones? We heard that Axion had double the number of interested customers/RFPs (paraphrasing here) in Q1. So what's the problem?

     

    Changing basic perceptions is often a slow road and thus a big negative for investors. Hope Vani's talking about prospects closer to the periphery and/or smallish ones.
    3 Jul 2012, 03:19 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3929) | Send Message
     
    Branding and marketing would be facilitated, seems to me, if Axion defined a PbC or PbC-based product to market, advertised it (at mihimum) on their web site, and supplied names and contact information of distributors/vendors .

     

    The only things Axion actually offers for sale on their website are TurboStart products and one has to explore the site to find a link for TurboStart.

     

    If Axion Power has defined one or more PowerCube products for sale, why does their web site not say so?
    3 Jul 2012, 03:41 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    D-inv, In my sales experience, for some companies, web sites don't mean shi* for sales. IMHO, that's definitely the case for Axion, at least now. Passive will get them nowhere. Way, way better to have Vani and staff make calls, set appts., speak and glad hand at conferences, follow up religeously (sp) with current prospects, etc. No meaningful communication (orders, etc.) regarding PbC is going to occur thru Axion's website, at least not from the big boys. And it has no effect on the toll contract, either. So I'm not at all worried that Axion's website has some outdated and missing pages. I'd much rather the boys spent their time on other stuff.
    3 Jul 2012, 04:09 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1904) | Send Message
     
    I'm still struggling getting power and access to Internet but I am still able to read a bit. It is nice to be able to jump on the APC with my limited time scan it and get quick updates on what is happening.

     

    Bio-carbon batteries does have a nice ring. I imagine for oem it will always be a Pbc but when it gets a little more mainstream perhaps we will start seeing "alternative" references to the product for the public.
    3 Jul 2012, 04:26 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1505) | Send Message
     
    Rick,
    I've also had some of the same thoughts, but at the same time agree with HTL that we have an industrial product rather than a consumer product where branding is maybe not as important. However, maybe Rosewater with the residential cube could use some spin on the product to make it sound more appealing, i.e. greener. Like your idea of Bio-carbon.

     

    With regard to the right questions, I think if we look back at John's recent post where at the 2010 ELBC presentation Ford and BMW publicly thanked Ed Buiel "which initiated our thoughts with his work. Thanks also for the fruitful discussions and the support."

     

    If only two years ago that BMW and Ford were unsure where and how the attributes of the PbC might fit their needs, then I can imagine that other companies are having to do the same paradigm shift. New concepts like KIAS, the high charge acceptance rate and high number of cycles. Energy vs. power may also be an issue to overcome..
    3 Jul 2012, 04:26 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    I would think part of the problem is that many of the US OEMs are behind the curve in SS technology in the first place. So now they are getting caught up on SS, and AGM batteries, and then all of a sudden you have a new carbon-LA battery that has carbon in it, but it is different than an AGM battery with carbon paste, so it can't just be used as a drop in replacement for any design they've already got on the board using an AGM battery.
    3 Jul 2012, 04:29 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    I think we have 1 or 2 youtube videos, but It might be helpful and not too expensive to put a few more together. Hell, I'l like to see one with Vani speaking!

     

    Here's a cute Johnson Controls one I just ran across today ... aimed at the building controls biz:

     

    http://bit.ly/LPYRRj

     

    Cute's not quite the right word ... I think it's clever ... gets some info and big ideas in without being at all techie. You never quite know what gets the attention of those controlling purse strings ... if you could convince a few of them to ask their tech experts a few questions, it might make a difference toward getting the ball rolling.
    3 Jul 2012, 05:24 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    Rick, been thinking about what the engineer or PM says to his boss (who knows little) and his boss's response "What? advanced lead-acid... everyone else is using Lithium..." We do need sexy in green...
    3 Jul 2012, 06:04 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3929) | Send Message
     
    Mr I, I have no doubt what you say is valid to a large degree, but I am certain the announcement of product for sale and avenues for purchase would do no harm and might help. And, at this point, virtually ANY PbC sale whether to "big boys" or small fry are significant in terms of business and revenue growth.

     

    Visit any website for newspapers operating on the East Coast between (and including) Baltimore, MD - Richmond, Va and one can see citizen and political official complaints of power outages continuing for large numbers of homes since a wind storm hit the area ~10:30 - 11:00pm last Friday. The volume and severity of criticism is, seems to me, greatest for areas severed by PEPCO in DC, MD. I certainly hope Rosewater Energy, Axion, Viridity Energy or all of the above have contacted the power distributors serving the storm damaged area regarding PowerCubes. If not CHANGE is needed and needed forthwith. (Rosewater Energy was apprised of unhappiness with PEPCO's reliability of service and response to storm damage late last year.)
    3 Jul 2012, 06:12 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    jak, glad to know you are able to keep up. let us know when things are back to normal in your neck of the woods...
    3 Jul 2012, 06:19 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    Whatever the residential minicube turns out to look like, they should also offer an option that integrates a smallish (8KW) propane fueled generator and tank along with. I've said it before, but I really think something that could provide ~2KW for a few hours silently, then recharge itself in an hour via integrated ICE generator (diesel or propane, not dependent on natgas service or less-than-stable gasahol), and then switch back to quiet battery mode... that would be a dream come true right now for so many folks having to deal with several days of sweltering temps and spoiled food... (imagine too if they had no water, ie their electric well-pump was down)
    3 Jul 2012, 06:39 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    86, a mico-cube - I want one...
    3 Jul 2012, 06:57 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    Hmm.... come to think of it, maybe Axion should be talking with home generator makers such as Generac or Honda etc...They do make some models that already incorporate inverters so that the output is better for electronics... integrating PbC into those products might not be that big of a stretch... Look at this: http://bit.ly/N8Y9mn

     

    And then imagine it integrated with say 10-20 PbC's and the associated BMS...not overly cheap, but probably not that hard to pull off... the batteries could last a decade, and it would amount to a pretty solid piece of gear providing some decent power security.... and a not-small market for us.. ;)
    3 Jul 2012, 07:27 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    Hey D-inv, how do u think PCs would help? Real question--I haven't thought it thru nor run any napkin economics on it. I see a lot of downed local power lines, not offline plants, so individual homes and businesses would need a PC? I also see a lot of folks without power for a lot more than a few minutes or hours, and I thought a PC is only economical for most folks if it is for brief outages (if longer, just get a generator instead?), but mostly not even for that but for very high quality, costly power instead. ala the retail high-end Rosewater product.
    3 Jul 2012, 09:00 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    fwiw, my sense is that the thing about a house is it has all these variable loads... the sum of which, depending on what appliances are present and operating, can be anywhere from say 200W to 20KW... and if you want to be able to carry everything then you either need a generator that big (and which will be run continuously, and importantly, sub-optimally at much reduced load most of the time) or a battery big enough to deliver enough power for those loads, coupled with a smaller generator that will be run intermittently, but near full capacity (where it's most efficient) to recharge the battery bank from time to time... So with the battery / generator combination you can have a smaller generator, and burn less fuel, for fewer total hours, and make less noise... Now, Do the economics pencil out? That's a huge question and obviously depends a lot on how much the batteries cost, how long they will last, and on how much the whole thing is going to be used... as a backup for a house, it's priceless when you need it, but that could be only a couple of times a year...and when you don't it's mostly going to be dead money... but for a boat or RV (or big truck) or off-grid residence I would think it could work well...
    3 Jul 2012, 09:22 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3929) | Send Message
     
    Mr I, what I have seen at times of power outages is a very mixed bag. My home is on the Baltimore Gas & Electric system, not PEPCO's, but the observations apply there as well. Some outages limited to a few houses due to, say, a tree limb falling and taking out power lines serving a single house or a block. Somewhat larger areas are usually affected by loss of transformers and larger areas still by trees, trucks, flood waters, wind downing higher power lines feeding power to transformers in residential neighborhoods. Very large scale outages entail "all of the above.

     

    For example, in the latest large scale power outage my home experienced two momentary "flickers" in power supply of long enough duration to shut down a computer, lose a TV picture, etc. Winds were strong enough here to snap the trunk of a 60 ft. tall tree about 2 ft. above the ground in my front yard. But we have had reliable power throughout. I am not aware of anyone within a mile who lost electric power, but everyone South and East of the ~1 mile 'boundaries' delineated by major thoroughfares lost power for at least 12 hours. In the outage areas I visited I saw no downed power lines and only a few instances in which tree limbs/trunks were entangling power lines while downed tree limbs/trees. seen frequently. And some of the affected areas are served by underground power cabling. At minimum, I believe PowerCubes could supply power to those areas with underground power cables for multiple hours at a time. A Rosewater 40-0.5G PC stores 0.25 MWh of energy, enough to supply power to 150 - 200 homes for 12 - 24 hours or, say, 500 homes for long enough each day to preserve refrigerated food stores, charge batteries on mobile phones, etc. and maybe even run air conditioning systems for an hour or two.

     

    My home is one of 175 - 200 located in something of an enclave developed in the 1940s - 1980s. We last lost power for an extended period (3 days) as a result of hurricane damage elsewhere on the BGE system. There was no visible damage affecting power lines anywhere in the three separate developments making up the enclave. Hundreds of other homes nearby were similarly affected damage and power wise. PowerCubes, which are reportedly easily mobile and should be virtually plugable systems, might have been used here to great effect. "Plug" a PC into the grid serving isolated (or isolateable) area for a few hours, disconnect and shuttle to another area for service there. Shuttle the PC back to a grid powered area for re-charge and repeat the "batch" delivery in still other areas. Homeowner losses to spoiled food and medicines needing refrigeration, flooded basements, etc.
    could be greatly curtailed if not eliminated.
    4 Jul 2012, 12:20 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    481086: "... it's priceless when you need it, but that could be only a couple of times a year...and when you don't it's mostly going to be dead money".

     

    Think outside the box man!

     

    Have you not heard the EVangilicals argue that Li-ion EOL could be recycled as storage? Heard about a PEVs being used for various power quality/shifting/... things when they are plugged in? Heard about PC being used for frequency regulation? Etc, etc.

     

    Now combine thousands of houses in an area with the mini-cube and/or small genset behind the meter. Recall FERC "pay for performance". Etc., etc.

     

    I see an offsetting revenue stream for the homeowner that reduces the homeowners' TCO on an on-going basis. Imagine "time shifting" (pay for only off-peak power), "smoothing", demand reduction response services and frequency regulation earning credit from the power co.

     

    You get the idea. Exactly which of these might be applicbale for mini-cubes would need to be identified, but ISTM several are applicable.

     

    Too expensive you say? Maybe not? We're talking an eventual "product" that has standard SKUs for components depending on capacity etc. Possibly enough volume that economies of scale *may* begin to kick in? High-end home builders could design such in from the start once acceptance by market, power companies, ... is achieved.

     

    Anyway, that's my thoughts. Imagine adding in the grid upgrades possibly avoided or deferred and the power companies ought to like the idea too.

     

    Distributed Power Quality Management should work very well with Distributed Generation too.

     

    HardToLove
    4 Jul 2012, 07:06 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2164) | Send Message
     
    HTL - Thanks for the contrarian POV..

     

    Branding Axion as the Bio-Carbon Battery Company is not an attempt to obscure that that the underlying technology is bio-carbon and lead and acid. Clearly any industrial purchaser (engineer) must understand the technology.

     

    I strongly disagree that "PbC" has positive connotation to non-customers; it has no connotations. An industrial sale of novel technology usually involves at least three layers of management, and typically at least one of those layers has limited technical strengths. For automotive markets, a signoff by COO or CEO is probably necessary; don't forget that GM was run by accountants, not engineers, for decades. I had a dinner with a past CEO of GM, and was appalled by his lack of insight regarding electric vehicles and alternate traction technologies even though he had to sign off on the Volt. The sale fails by any one level not being enthusiastic - Axion has to sell to all three. The unspoken "Lead is hard for my wife to explain at cocktail parties" is tough to overcome.

     

    Several following comments mentioned web presence. Agreed, the web site is not going to drive sales for this product; that is not the intention. Sales will be by direct presentations.

     

    Intel took years and major $$$ to become a consumer name. A "random" name, such as Axion (without a story) is a hard and / or expensive sell. "Axion, the Bio-Carbon Battery Company | People" with a little romance of permanently sequestering carbon, "undoing" the problem of gasoline, becomes an easier, trendy marketing story. It has nothing to do with getting through the first level engineers (I hope); it is the extra ammo to close the deal in the board room.

     

    Does Axion own "CPb" or BCPb? Let's emphasize the bio-carbon, list it first. Just because we stockholders are too familiar with PbC does not mean we shouldn't emphasize bio-carbon.
    4 Jul 2012, 01:25 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Yeah, but he had a great first name and played a heck of a game of basket ball.

     

    Anyway, I just wanted to add a point. I'd not be so appalled with him not being overly understanding the technology in a PHEV like the Volt. A great leader really is one who can assemble a team of great leaders. Especially at his level.

     

    BTW, GM hasn't had any great leaders in a long time.
    4 Jul 2012, 01:53 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Rick: "I strongly disagree that "PbC" has positive connotation to non-customers". No disagreement - I was suggesting it had positive for our industrial customers, referenced in the paragraph above that line.

     

    As to layers of management and the various considerations, agreed.

     

    HardToLove
    4 Jul 2012, 03:52 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (971) | Send Message
     
    Rick

     

    I reread your initial and the following posts.
    I'm in full agreement!
    We need the creative minds (techie and non techie) to come up with a good leading/functional introduction name.

     

    When I talk with friends and family, blank stares...even my brother, COO/MBA just went for the ride based on my recommendation.
    4 Jul 2012, 04:10 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    D-inv, an economic analysis would be interesting. The PC would be $.5mil- $1mil? What else does that amt buy? Prob one heckuva generator on wheels, too, I'm guessing. Utilities could be using those extensively now, but I don't see it around.

     

    Anyway, the bigger picture is that I haven't seen the "PC as back-up power" cost/benefit numbers yet. Has anyone? NS already thinks a PC on rails makes sense, and the autos have gone long enough with their testing (and we surmise it's only $300-$400?), but for certains PbC apps, even a basic $ cost-benefit is elusive. Maybe I missed someone's post about it, though, but I don't think so. It's a hole in my due dilly.
    4 Jul 2012, 04:12 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    Guys, not that this changes things much but the PC is not as portable as you describe...

     

    Transmission and distribution lines operate at what we call “Primary” voltage and must be stepped down, with a step down transformer(s), to a “Secondary” voltage to be used. Industrial users have their own dedicated transformers. Residential, on the other hand, share a single transformer for several houses (sized accordingly).

     

    In order for the PC to feed a group of houses it would need to be ”stepped up” and attached to the primary side. However, since primary circuits are usually feeders the PC would have to be large enough to power the entire feeder unless the section could be isolated. Most feeder circuits loop so this would not be practical.

     

    There is a configuration that would allow you to “drop in” a PC and it would only require a single phase inverter which is sure to be much cheaper than the 3-phase Princeton with multiple inputs (solar, wind, genset). It's a single phase tap line. This is where a single phase primary circuit branches off to feed a group of houses. This is pretty common in the newer subdivisions where the through streets are limited and cul de sacs are many. Also, gated communities should be a workable target.

     

    Hope this helps...

     

    EDIT: The PC operates in the secondary side only.
    4 Jul 2012, 05:35 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    I think one for every house is the real way to go... ;)

     

    Seriously, with some engineering, I think a lot could be packed into a refrigerator sized module that would be placed outside the house, next to the HVAC condenser and service entrance. The module would need to contain a ~6KW LPG fueled generator, Inverter, BMS, islanding ABT switch, around 12 PbCs, and two user-swappable 5 gallon propane tanks. Put that altogether somehow for about $10K (with an expandable solar option for extra) and I bet at least a few would sell...
    4 Jul 2012, 05:53 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (696) | Send Message
     
    Tim,

     

    Can you explain what happens with the smart meters that are being widely installed? My understanding was that if I generated excess electricity through wind, solar or whatever, that that electricity would be used elsewhere and that I would eventually benefit financially.

     

    Is the power that I return to the grid stepped up at the smart meter?
    4 Jul 2012, 05:57 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    86, Again, I like it! how about natural gas generator for those folks who have both? I don't know if they even have such an animal...
    4 Jul 2012, 06:07 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    Albert,

     

    The smart meter came after my tour in the trade and I have heard the term used for different things. The first time I heard about it the use was simple, the meter could read itself and eliminated the meter reader.

     

    Its beautiful... the power that is returned is stepped up through the same transformer that stepped it down. If you are generating more power than you are using the meter actually spins backwards. Nothing special is needed.

     

    Do not try this at home, but you can actually pull the meter and turn it upside down and it will turn backwards for the power you are using. If you happen to find a bag of seals along side the road, make sure you don't leave the meter upside down for too long or you will certainly get a knock on your door. Also, you run a risk with old meter bases blowing up so the best idea is just conserve <smile>...
    4 Jul 2012, 06:19 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2164) | Send Message
     
    86 - I disagree that Axion should be talking with generator companies. Rosewater's Powercubes should be "open architecture", open to any and all generators and switching electronics. Axion needs to stay focused on its bio-carbon batteries; that is their business. There are lots of integrators who can help decide what is the preferred backup generator (gasoline, diesel, propane, natural gas) for the specific customer.

     

    ZBB, Outback Power, and many others make control systems; the Bio-Carbon batteries should work with all of them.

     

    Axion does not have the resources to also support individual standby generators, varying flavors of PV and wind, and multiple grid-tie combinations (regulations).

     

    The economics of typical emergency power, residential or commercial, very strongly favor simple, cheap, fuel-inefficient ICEs. Power outages over 10 hours per year are very rare for the vast majority of the US population. Occasional power losses that extends for days (post hurricane, for example) are met by more gasoline or diesel. While the current mid-Atlantic power outage may encourage sales of portable generators, I doubt that the lifetime energy consumption of those gasoline generators will exceed 100 gallons - a whopping $400. A cheap generator is $800-$2500, and _could_ run for over a week or two. A battery system to run for a week is probably north of $100k.

     

    The economics of PV or extended batteries for this service is off by at least an order of magnitude, and makes the numbers worse.

     

    A residential Powercube will produce everyday benefits of clean power from dirty mains, protection of electronics, and cover (quietly) short term outages. It may in the future provide revenue streams for the owner as part of a fleet of batteries. However, for pure economics for an infrequently-used standby generator, the numbers are not pretty.

     

    Please note for CONTINUOUS power, like an oil rig or other off-grid application, the fuel and capital numbers are very different.
    4 Jul 2012, 08:49 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    Rick, total buzzkill. ;) Though I hear what you're saying. I too, don't really want Axion doing much more than making and selling PbCs and PbC electrodes either. But it would be nice if someone started buying them in quantity. And soon. ;) My thought is if the generator companies wanted to develop and offer a differentiated product (Such as an existing inverter-generator but one with some integrated storage so that the ICE doesn't need to run continuously to provide continuous power.) That they could buy our batteries, and incorporate them into their own product. The end result might not be for everybody it is true, but still, thousands of small ICE generators are sold and used every year, for all sorts of applications, not just emergency, and I gotta think a reasonable amount of integrated storage would be a desired option for at least some people...
    4 Jul 2012, 09:46 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    Mag, Rick, 86, et al,

     

    I like the "Bio-Carbon" angle, but that does not account for the real difference in the PbC against all other LAB technologies, the supercapacitor funcitonality.

     

    The UltraBattery has a nice ring as a marketing name, but we have the "Bio-Carbon SuperBattery," which is even better!

     

    Including the "super" designation emphasizes the supercapacitor hybrid technology that really make Axion's product unique. The marketing name should reflect this as a talking point.
    5 Jul 2012, 10:53 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3929) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the info, Tim.
    5 Jul 2012, 12:26 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1904) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Tim. We we had no power for three days and no cable until last night. Most people in our area had no power for about five days (friday night to yesterday). Lots of fun with 100 degree days and 90 degree nights. Not sure how the human race survived 70 years ago.
    5 Jul 2012, 02:48 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Glad to see you're back in biz! We lost power a long time ago for about three days in the winter due to ice and that was miserable enough when you could warm up with blankets.

     

    'Course we had it easy - we own a small office building downtown that had power so we dragged pillows and blankets along and stayed there.

     

    HardToLove
    5 Jul 2012, 02:56 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    The DOE government-backed loan hex strikes again.

     

    "Abound Solar is latest government-backed bankruptcy"

     

    http://cnnmon.ie/M4s3H1

     

    Our (taxpayer's) loss will be "small" though - estimated at ~$60M. I wonder if they'll return to me my share of the loss that was avoided?

     

    HardToLove
    3 Jul 2012, 02:46 PM Reply Like
  • DBLucie
    , contributor
    Comments (5) | Send Message
     
    Rick,
    Very good and important discussion , particularly considering what management said at the annual meeting.
    Investor perception cannot be ignored either as we all want Axion to take a more forward approach.
    DBLucie
    3 Jul 2012, 03:25 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    For anyone interested I found this on the defense community info. site. Here, (Not an Axion article so don't get excited. Just wanted to supply the link for those looking to search it.)

     

    http://1.usa.gov/N6gJYw

     

    Anyway, From out friends at Exide. I'm really beginning to think all Exide ever wanted from Axion is what they could steal from them.

     

    "Electrode material enhancements for lead-acid batteries"

     

    http://1.usa.gov/LWEF6I
    3 Jul 2012, 06:26 PM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1826) | Send Message
     
    It's amazing to me that Exide can produce these studies and act like there's no such thing as an all-carbon negative electrode.

     

    Even after their abusive relationship with Axion.

     

    'Carbon additives' are compared only to a lead negative electrode - never to an all-carbon negative electrode.

     

    What a crock.

     

    D
    3 Jul 2012, 10:39 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    Hey DRich, saw this guy the other day...

     

    http://bit.ly/N6gMnd

     

    He was sure quiet...
    3 Jul 2012, 06:27 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4427) | Send Message
     
    >Tim Enright ... Thanks. PHL has accepted 6 genset locos since 2007 and have several more on order. I think the genset is going to be a short term solution since they cost ~6x the price of a normal diesel rebuild if the NS999 works out the way we, here, all expect. Another product feed-in or about 1700 units to BEV or GreenGoat conversion over the next 10 years. Sooner if oil becomes really expensive.

     

    http://bit.ly/zb68vy
    3 Jul 2012, 07:33 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    I find myself looking at every train for the shiney new engine with special markings and I finally found one. I was very happy when you first mentioned the cost of the co-generation locos but didn't attach the ~6x thanks for the update. I am very surprised that CAT is not working on battery storage to supplement their getsets. If I were part of the Axion sales force, I would be looking at every angle to get the PbC in their hands...
    4 Jul 2012, 10:22 AM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9597) | Send Message
     
    Seattle, Washington-based EnerG2 is using a patented carbon technology for lead acid batteries:

     

    http://bit.ly/N6iULy
    3 Jul 2012, 06:53 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4427) | Send Message
     
    >Mayascribe ... I've wondered who EnerG2 was going to sell to in the battery sector. I think they have a future in the filtration biz.
    3 Jul 2012, 07:35 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3929) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, Maya. EnerG2's lead-acid battery description reads to me as an Ultrabattery variant/competitor with both negative anode composed of lead and carbon. Risk is there for tech to be "good enough" to forestall adoption of PbC for a lot of applications.
    3 Jul 2012, 08:08 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    There are any number of suppliers looking to support the need for additives to reduce sulfation on the neg. electrode. A couple other include Cabot and this company.

     

    http://bit.ly/LvS4hq

     

    I'm looking forward to the Sandia / East Penn report in August.
    3 Jul 2012, 08:13 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    I did call their plant in Albany to try and learn more but they were very tight lipped. I do know that they have been doing quite a bit of hiring...
    4 Jul 2012, 10:03 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/OoV42l

     

    "Our carbons have virtually eliminated cell failures due to sulfation. These ultra-pure mesoporous carbons provide a level of performance in lead acid batteries not seen before in lead chemistries while providing easy processability when added to the negative paste of a lead acid battery."

     

    Nothing about cost, but if this is true, isn't a big part of our "raison d'etre" minimized w.r.t the "big boys?"

     

    Does the sulfation happen "in" the paste?
    4 Jul 2012, 12:07 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (966) | Send Message
     
    pastes compare favorably to traditional led batteries. PbC does much better. pastes are cheaper, but sulfation still occurs.
    4 Jul 2012, 12:26 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4427) | Send Message
     
    >wtblanchard ... Sulfation happens on the lead of the electrode plate. Carbon pastes will improve and with that so will the reduction (not elimination) of sulfation; thus LABs will last longer with better power curves. It is just the nature of the game going forward. The biggest thing is cost. I don't know the pricing of all these nano solutions but if JP, Lux & (JCI) are right the cost of lead itself has nowhere to go but up so the PbC performance with 30% less Pb should maintain a market niche.

     

    The capacitor quality of the PbC should also be an advantage in single or mixed battery use energy providing applications. I don't expect the PbC to be a dominate battery type in energy storage (it is, after all, a power device) ... I just expect it to be included in a huge number of applications for its unique properties and long life.
    4 Jul 2012, 12:44 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    "Eliminating failures" from sulfation is not impressive. Sulfation is a process that begins with the first charge cycle and progresses until a battery fails. In both the Ford-BMW and Axion-BMW presentations, AGM batteries lost their DCA within a couple months even though the batteries continued to function for a couple years.

     

    All carbon additives slow sulfation. Unless you can outright prevent sulfation, you'll never have the DCA of the PbC and you can't prevent sulfation if there's lead on the negative plates.
    4 Jul 2012, 01:49 PM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (783) | Send Message
     
    Good Morning:
    I share something that I think is important:

     

    http://bit.ly/Nllz6f

     

    Have a nice day.
    Carlos.
    4 Jul 2012, 08:35 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    Looks like they are using the Enersys PC-2150 AGM only rebranded under their label as the NXT. Charged by the engine alternator. Similar to my setup only smaller...

     

    http://bit.ly/NxXFlY
    4 Jul 2012, 09:31 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    My first thought was "no free lunch". It addresses some issues but gets power (most of the time) from the engine alternator, meaning (very slightly?) higher fuel consumption. Wouldn't be noticed on a galloping horse in a blinding snow storm, but ...

     

    If the extra batteries could have opportunistic charge maintenance (e.g, draw power only on throttle release or other methods - A PbC would be better suited for this operational phase), I would like it a lot better. As it is, adding the system weight and additional load on the engine seems to just transfer load from engine idle times to engine driving times.

     

    Nit-picking, I know,
    HardToLove
    4 Jul 2012, 09:42 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    You are right, the trade off is a little more load while the engine is running for a long engine off period. A significant gain actually and you keep the engine hours down. Once the batteries are full the alternator doesn't have to work very hard. Also, shore power for trucks is where we are headed so this seems like a good fit...
    4 Jul 2012, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Look at the pictures of the stack component (slide 14) with its tiny O-Rings. Then look at the picture of their original stack (slide18)(Remember those little O-rings). Also look at their pump set-up and the type of plumbing components they are using (slide 7). Now say to yourself "It lasts up to 20 years". I'm still laughing. Is there room for a cot in that trailer?

     

    Behind the scenes of Primus Power’s battery lab

     

    http://bit.ly/NlyGnT
    4 Jul 2012, 09:52 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Companies don't work on this stuff just because it's fun. They are generally approached and they do market assessments.

     

    Power Distribution for Start-Stop Systems with Dual Battery Approach

     

    http://bit.ly/N7ensn
    4 Jul 2012, 10:20 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: Looks like a good catch you made there because ...

     

    Hmmmm ... Maybe *that* is why after almost 3 years of knowing the need, 2.x years of various testing, ... BMW and others hadn't yet made a commitment? If you're going to build a car, you want assured supply chain of all the parts, minimal part count, high functional integration (packing and space issues), and compatible parts (functionally and parametric) from multiple suppliers?

     

    I wonder if that's "the missing piece(s)" right there?

     

    As you said, they don't do it for fun.

     

    As to "approached", we know Ford was one of the early folks with BMW that recognized the PbC and dual-battery possibility. I would think that leads to likelihood of of sufficient volume in the market, especially if others would follow as the cost and reliability advantages became (already are?) apparent.

     

    HardToLove
    4 Jul 2012, 12:09 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    HTL, All these things need to be in place and part of the testing process for validation. When auto companies are testing they will test components up to a certain phase of the program. However after eliminating certain components due to various factors they start to do in vehicle integration where the objective is to no longer test components per se but to test entire systems.

     

    Consumers don't get excited if their system fails but they still got a hell of a battery. Well maybe they do but not in the intended way.

     

    As you can imagine there are many objectives that different groups within the company have for getting their components/systems into test phases on the vehicle. All these groups must respect opportunities to enter their systems but this requires that they also respect the timing of the final platform. Miss a window and you might miss an entire vehicle cycle (typically 3-4 years). Or maybe you then jump onto another platform teams program.

     

    Anyway. what I wanted to get at is these types of components do not just come from a suppliers dreams. They are developed based on future platform needs that companies or groups of companies present years in advance. If the supplier(s) feel that the opportunity meets their own goals they will work with the companies that are developing the futures vehicle systems. They are in effect integrated into the vehicle launch plan. And it all needs to come together for everyone to take the ride.

     

    So if Axion were starting fleet testing, and we would not know this unless the OEM said OK and first reviewed the press release, all these components would most likely be in the vehicle as well. I presented this because it's another sign that two battery systems are part of at least one and most likely more OEM's plans.

     

    Like an good tracker I'm lookin for signs! I'm not a great tracker but being here with other trackers makes me a better tracker!
    4 Jul 2012, 01:43 PM Reply Like
  • Johhny rambo
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    One question that I have for the board.

     

    I have been travelling and not had the opportunity to do any reading/follow up with regards to the full outcome of the AGM and Axionistas well thought out opinions etc, and in particular, when Axionistas expect OEM automotive orders in the future.

     

    Can someone help point me to the correct concentrator, as my belief is this is the only thing that will act as a game changing catalyst for the company's share price taking off.

     

    Thanks
    4 Jul 2012, 01:38 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    Discussions from people who attended the meeting start with Concentrator 117 and flow through several editions.

     

    http://bit.ly/Kz00RZ

     

    If you're looking at one application like stop-start as the be all and end all for the PbC and Axion's stock you'll probably be disappointed. If you recognize that any number of applications can awaken the animal spirits and it doesn't matter which comes first, you'll probably sleep better.

     

    I personally think stop-start is the least attractive of Axion's potential markets, but that's because the automakers are such penny pinchers. I'd much rather sell batteries to companies like NS that appreciate the value proposition and will pay up for something that meets their needs instead of haggling for nickels and dimes.
    4 Jul 2012, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • Johhny rambo
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    Thank's for the link and commentary.

     

    It is interesting that your take on this is a slightly different slant than my own, as we have both been invested for the same length of time.

     

    However, I just want to see the stock skyrocket, and have had it ingrained for so many years, that the real big orders and opportunity, would come from OEM contracts.

     

    I actually do not doubt the importance of rail etc, but am just running out of time financially, having to make some pretty tough decisions on the home front, because of my poor decision making.

     

    I really, really want to see Axion succeed, as you say, in any way possible, but worry that without OEM, Rail,Powercube all coming together at the same time, it will be too late for me personally to make a difference.

     

    Thanks again for the correct link.
    Happy 4th to all Axionistas !
    4 Jul 2012, 02:40 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    JR, I remember you from the brand x board. Hopefully we'll see a little lift via some news soon. I wish you well as always.
    4 Jul 2012, 03:20 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Here's a nice presentation on the VW Touareg. The upper end model has a dual battery system and this has some nice layout info. and also discusses a little how they laid out the system electrically. In order for this to be effective you really want a "split bus" type architecture.

     

    I don't think this was done specific for SS but as John has indicated once you get to some of the higher end vehicles with all their gadgets you start running into problems with a 12VDC bus anyway. Here we see a case where this has been accommodated.

     

    http://bit.ly/PeDaC9
    4 Jul 2012, 03:18 PM Reply Like
  • 23808
    , contributor
    Comments (57) | Send Message
     
    It looks like there will be more and more dual battery system. JP, your projection for battery companies to have additional revenue looks better and better.
    4 Jul 2012, 07:56 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    This is a presentation the Russians are using for their asymmetric supercapacitor. There are some good things about this that might help Axion with their industrial potential client education efforts. It's a starter piece that shows where the device fits relative to its competitors.

     

    http://bit.ly/LptcwB
    4 Jul 2012, 10:04 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Reworked the charts in my instablog yesterday, but Seeking Alpha lost the link from the author board. So I didn't want to spend a lot of time when they might be correcting the problem.

     

    I tried to make the charts a little more "user friendly" by "de-consolidating" some stuff into separate panels. Also have the first few days of some 100-day averages and added averages for several of the items.

     

    Once SA gets stuff fixed, I'll make a new and shorter instablog (to reduce load times) and I'll be looking for "votes" to keep charts as one big image or break it into parts that you can enlarge individually.

     

    I'll also add in commentary and start dropping some of the (now excessive) daily short sales lines to stay in a more (potentially) useful range.

     

    I can say I've noted one thing: some of the averages I added highlighted a "stealth bullishness" seems to have developed as averages for trade sizes over the five months have been in a slow grind up across the board. I hadn't realized this was going on.

     

    Further *if* "buy:sell" carries any meaning (which we are not certain of), the same behavior is being seen.

     

    When price and volume get on board, "watch out above" I think.

     

    http://bit.ly/LVYU07

     

    HardToLove
    5 Jul 2012, 08:32 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Another form 4 Quercus. :)

     

    http://bit.ly/PdsSRE
    5 Jul 2012, 08:44 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1826) | Send Message
     
    Ugh.

     

    At that rate it will take them 5 months to sell the rest of it.

     

    I don't care about price right now but I'd love to see some higher volume days that Quercus can take advantage of.

     

    D
    5 Jul 2012, 09:04 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    We're on the same page. I am at least pleased that their sales are not directly correlated to after hours activity. I was worried they had stopped selling on some days.

     

    Now, let's hope for some volume to help them OUT.
    5 Jul 2012, 09:11 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1826) | Send Message
     
    I was also thinking that any good news would ramp up volume and mop up Quercus shares pretty easily.
    5 Jul 2012, 11:14 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1505) | Send Message
     
    IIRC, Q has to sell the shares they have registered to sell within 90 days. Maybe my recall is a bit hazy. I was thinking the other day, at this rate, they will have to dump some in the final part of the 90 days.

     

    John, is my recall correct, or have I lost a few bars from my memory, a lá Nissan Leaf.
    5 Jul 2012, 02:59 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    The filing of a Form 144 is a statement of intention to sell up to 850,000 shares over a 90-day period. As long as they stay at 10% of daily volume, that shouldn't be a problem for them. Given the way they've religiously stayed with a 10% limit, I'd be surprised to see them deviate from past behavior.
    5 Jul 2012, 03:17 PM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (783) | Send Message
     
    One question:
    What has happened with David Gelbaum, the other seller?
    Thanks
    Carlos.
    5 Jul 2012, 09:19 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Carlos, David Gelbaum set up the Quercus Trust. Thus as a selling entity they are basically one and the same.
    5 Jul 2012, 09:37 AM Reply Like
  • Johhny rambo
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    http://on.wsj.com/Rk51OK

     

    Has anyone a comment on the Renault decision to go with LG ?
    Looks like cost was a major factor for them
    5 Jul 2012, 11:32 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Well one reason is that Renault delayed their launch of a battery plant in France. My guess here is that the take-up does not justify the investment.

     

    http://reut.rs/RkltOW

     

    Also of interest is that Renault is aligned with Nissan. Could there be some clues here relating to the issues reported concerning the Leaf and battery life. I question if Nissan has capacity issues so what's driving Renault from the home team?

     

    Interesting. Thanks.
    5 Jul 2012, 12:10 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    Battery manufacturing is a whole lot easier in the planning stages than it is in the execution stages. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that AESC has not been able to achieve their planned *economies of scale* and rather than dump more money into another AESC plant Renault decided it would be cheaper to bring in LG Chem for the heavy lifting.
    5 Jul 2012, 12:41 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    Citadel Derivatives Group on the bid at the moment. I don't remember seeing them before. Some of the usuals are not on my Level II screen today--UBSS, PERT. On vacation?
    5 Jul 2012, 11:39 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    MrI they are all there today. 18 on the ask at offers $0.35-$200.00! 19 on the bid $0.0001-$0.34.

     

    I suspect there's some configuration on what you looking at that shows xx "top" or some such?

     

    HardToLove
    5 Jul 2012, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    I've got 10 on the ask from .35 to .96 and 9 on the bid side from .34 to .185 (in descending price order, ATDF, CDRG, BNCH, HDSN, ARCA, ETRF, BTIG, CANT, CSTI). Hmmm, the Help window says, "The bottom half of the Level II tool displays the top 15 bids and offers from Market Participants". So I guess it's not quite showing all it's supposed to. But, do I care about a MM that's so very far away from the mkt? I'm guessing no. If UBSS is not at 33 cents with about 95k, but is instead at, say, 5 cents with 5k, I think I only care that the big order is inactive, no?

     

    Strange lack of some of the info, nonetheless. I know TDAMeritrade has been trying to get their users to move to "Trade Architect" from "Command Center", so maybe support for the latter, which is what I still use (Trade Architect looked like a step backwards for my needs) is being lowered.
    5 Jul 2012, 12:14 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    MrI: IMO you are right about the outliers. They don't affect trade. Many are inserted just to take advantage of the occasional "fat finger". These are from the broker clients, not the market-makers or investors and traders that are at least half serious about change in their position, IMO.

     

    Maybe once a year one of these outliers gets lucky, but it doesn't seem a high-percentage strategy to me.

     

    HardToLove
    5 Jul 2012, 12:20 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    As I recall, there's a process involved in becoming an OTC market maker for a particular stock. I don't know what the process is, but there's something in the back of my head that tells me there is one. To pre-load, as it were, market makers will go through the process, and then price themselves way outside the trading range till something starts happening. Then they can swoop right in and join the party instead of waiting for paperwork to clear.
    5 Jul 2012, 12:38 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    A classic article well worth another reading on a slow day:

     

    http://bit.ly/LrhL7u

     

    Props to the author.
    5 Jul 2012, 01:05 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29557) | Send Message
     
    We're 88 days and counting from the sequel, ELBC 13 in Paris which will focus more heavily on mircohybrids than ELBC 12 did. http://bit.ly/MLXAjI

     

    I don't know whether anybody's interested, but I've spoken to the ILA and they're willing to offer a 30% registration fee discount to any of my followers who want to make the jaunt to Paris and spend a couple days immersed in lead-acid battery technology.

     

    Even with the 30% discount the ELBC is still pretty pricey, €1,400 plus €274.40 in VAT for a total of €1,674.40.

     

    If you're interested please send me an e-mail – jlp (at) ipo-law (dot) com. I promise my blog will be cheaper.
    5 Jul 2012, 01:19 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    That there is a darn lot of AXPW shares, John!
    5 Jul 2012, 01:34 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    GM doing some last minute checks in the heat for the Spark.

     

    http://bit.ly/MLYr3U
    5 Jul 2012, 01:26 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8845) | Send Message
     
    Author Claims Electric Vehicles Are a Green Illusion

     

    http://bit.ly/LWBkhA

     

    A little Styx to complement the read.

     

    http://bit.ly/LWBkhB
    5 Jul 2012, 01:30 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1205) | Send Message
     
    Thats a great read, thanks ii!
    5 Jul 2012, 01:45 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1205) | Send Message
     
    Off-topic: Anyone have a target price set for XIDE in the short-term?
    5 Jul 2012, 01:46 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    I don't but I've certainly noticed their big move up. Here's to hoping they're a leading indicator for AXPW.
    5 Jul 2012, 02:17 PM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (430) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » New Concentrator this way.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    5 Jul 2012, 02:36 PM Reply Like
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