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Trade stocks by day, and at night am writing a historical epic about the ancient Mayan civilization. "Maya: Spirits Of The Jaguar" is a sweeping saga set in the ancient and magical Mayan landscape where a wronged family struggles against prophecy, power, treachery and forbidden love,... More
  • Axion Power CEDIA Question Forum 38 comments
    Sep 4, 2012 1:14 PM

    Al Marshall, who will be attending the CEDIA Expo this week, asked me to create an Instablog to provide a forum where interested folks could post questions regarding the Rosewater HUB, or any other questions that Al may ask of other attendees/exhibitors at the Expo.

    Please feel free to post any of those questions here.

    Thanks!

    Disclosure: I am long JCI.

    Additional disclosure: I am Long Axion Power

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Comments (38)
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  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9597) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » Yes, I am long JCI, too!

     

    My first question would be to nail down the UL listing. Is the HUB UL ready to go, or is just the PbC UL approved, and the "whole" package, the entire HUB, still waitng for UL approval?

     

    Also would like to know more about Rosewater's connections with Canada.
    4 Sep 2012, 01:21 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    Maya,
    I put in an inquiry a few days ago and got a reply that the Hub is not yet UL-approved. They are still working on the premise, as TG stated in the CC, that it will be by the end of the year and that any orders that are booked will be done so with the understanding that they won't be shipped until final UL-approval is obtained.
    4 Sep 2012, 10:34 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9597) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » Thanks, Lab. Appreciate that confirmed knowledge.
    5 Sep 2012, 12:33 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3931) | Send Message
     
    "I put in an inquiry a few days ago and got a reply that the Hub is not yet UL-approved."

     

    That info certainly erodes Rosewater Energy credibility with me. If UL cert has not been granted, putting out a press release about an award recognition that unequivocally states the unit is UL approved is bad form in my book.
    5 Sep 2012, 12:33 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    D-inv,
    Rick and I went back and forth about this on the Concentrator. He pointed to one press release where it said the unit "will" be UL-approved and I pointed to the one from Aug 29th where it said it "is" UL-approved. Basically the comment back to me was that the article from the 29th was worded incorrectly and what they meant to say is that the Hub will be UL-approved when sales are complete. Which is basically what Rick was arguing. I thought it was a bit lazy to not check or correct the wording, but at least when I asked the question I got a straight answer.
    5 Sep 2012, 04:24 AM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9597) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » Folks: Amongst 8 or 10 of us shareholders, or far more who are "lurky Axionistas," who attended the June SC, none of us heard anything different than that the HUB will obtain UL certification before December. Anyone who heard different than I, please step forward.
    5 Sep 2012, 04:57 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3931) | Send Message
     
    "...who attended the June SC, none of us heard anything different than that the HUB will obtain UL certification before December."

     

    Maya, what was stated in June at the annual shareholders meeting is neither at issue nor in dispute. The issue is the veracity of Rosewater Energy in light of publishing a press release in August stating that the HUB IS UL approved when it is not. Will be is the NOT the same thing as IS in any circumstance and most certainly differs with respect to likelihood of shipping HUB PbC batteries in Q3. The "is" versus "will be" issue is not a minor one from a reasonable investor's point of view.

     

    Enough talking. Past time to begin walking the walk.
    5 Sep 2012, 08:34 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9597) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » D-Inv: Hence, my question, my first comment in this Insta, of which I would like to see resolved about UL certification. We're on the same page.

     

    Although, between the lines, I guess I'm a little more patient about walking the walk.
    6 Sep 2012, 01:06 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2557) | Send Message
     
    I am not sure the best way to go about structuring this question, but I would like to know what RW's measuring sticks for gauging a successful launch and first year will be.

     

    After RW was announced as a partner last year, I thought RW would have a least one sale by now (oil rig, etc). However, maybe getting set-up to bring the Hub to market was the ultimate goal.
    4 Sep 2012, 01:30 PM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1826) | Send Message
     
    I agree with Stefan.

     

    I'm intersted in 1) markets; 2) timing.

     

    1) Markets - how would you break the market up into pieces?
    - what geographies?
    - what segments (oil rigs, community energy storage, high net worth individuals, etc)?

     

    2) Timing - when might we see sales of what size and in what segments, geographies?

     

    An additional question is whether we'll get some preliminary information regarding the program with the Ontario LDC? Which LDC is it?

     

    Don
    4 Sep 2012, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    The guys at Rosewater are in a very different position from Axion's management because they don't have anywhere near the securities law restrictions and their goal is to sell product. If I were to suggest anything to Al, it would be ask open-ended questions and let them talk about goals, strategies and what they've accomplished to date. Pic and Mario are salesmen and heart, which means they love to sell themselves. Let them.

     

    And be sure to ask about their Middle East hopes. They have a partner in the ME that they think is worth talking about. Let them explain why.
    4 Sep 2012, 03:09 PM Reply Like
  • Ishikawa
    , contributor
    Comments (177) | Send Message
     
    Does RW have any connections in India ? With their power blackouts and insufficient juices during regular hours most of the hi networth families are running diesel generators on the continue basis. They hated it because it is noisy and dirty.

     

    Base on recent conversations with several visitors from Bombay and New Delhi, they don't mind the cost but they want a system tailored to their needs. The size of the "hi networth families" are as big as a fourth to a third of US population may be more.
    4 Sep 2012, 04:43 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    And I doubt that such customers in India would be overly concerned about awaiting UL certification.

     

    http://bit.ly/TXhLtX

     

    http://bit.ly/Tif22d

     

    http://bit.ly/TXhK9h
    5 Sep 2012, 10:55 AM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (498) | Send Message
     
    Thanks all! Good stuff.

     

    Al
    4 Sep 2012, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    "The system will be capable of paralleling up to five units to extend the total power and energy storage capability to 50 kW/60 kWh.

     

    from http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    "The system will be capable of paralleling up to five units to extend the total power and energy storage capability to 50 kW/60 kWh."

     

    ...

     

    Can you find out the stairstep price increases from $45K for increasing the storage potential?

     

    And what do they mean by "unit?"

     

    If you can get your hands on any Indy Power System Energy Router documentation, that would be pretty cool ...
    4 Sep 2012, 05:44 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2165) | Send Message
     
    wtb, I believe the paralleling is almost exactly linear, eg, 5 units are 5 times the cost, with some economies of installation. I have not seen any suggestions of selling a 10kw/60kwh , would simply adding more batteries to the inverter.

     

    'And what do they mean by "unit?"[' - $45,000 list.
    5 Sep 2012, 09:37 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    How much will home security specialists serve as competitors to the installers Rosewater is working with?

     

    How much of the target market is already using some sort of UPS perhaps facilitated by these security specialists?

     

    Do these systems wear out periodically thus giving the opportunity to get something new in the door?
    4 Sep 2012, 05:49 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2165) | Send Message
     
    wtb, there have been a lot of commercial online UPSs available in the market for many years. How many are in the residential market is unknown to me.

     

    UPSs are basically two components:

     

    1) inverters and control circuitry, which has a very long life. Except for a fire, it never "wears out", although more sophisticated controls (electronics) may be desired.

     

    2) batteries, which degrade rapidly. The Bio-Carbon battery should be an extremely long life product IF the proper inverter and charging circuitry has been implemented. Bio-Carbon batteries cannot be easily substituted into standard inverter circuits.

     

    Replacing batteries is easy (but not cheap), with low labor cost and no "thinking" needed.
    5 Sep 2012, 09:45 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    From another of my APC questions:

     

    is there room in your Indy schedule for a visit to Indy Power Systems?

     

    I was unimpressed that their address is not on their website:
    http://bit.ly/ShptkL

     

    Although according to
    http://bit.ly/OuEf5o

     

    it's
    7702 Moller Road
    Indianapolis, IN 46268-4163

     

    http://bit.ly/ShpvJ9

     

    Even a drive-by parking lot activity level would be interesting to me and perhaps others here. Perhaps you can figure out for sure where they do their manufacturing via conversation ...

     

    Have you heard whether anyone from IPS is going to to be at the conference?
    4 Sep 2012, 05:52 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    Not Hub related, but it sure would be interesting to get some Rosewater talk on the Oil Rig application. Not sure if anyone at the Annual Meeting found an opportunity with the right person to query, and if so, whether they got any answer or got shut down or just got some hand waving.
    4 Sep 2012, 05:57 PM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (498) | Send Message
     
    WTB: I see that Indy isn't an exhibitor at the meeting. I'm flying in Wednesday evening and flying out first thing Friday morning so my time will be extremely limited. I'll see if I can find out any info though.

     

    At the annual meeting all I heard on the oil rig application was that given the big dollars involved in drilling for oil and gas, the drillers didn't want to bother screwing around with changing something that works to save (comparatively speaking) nickels and dimes.
    4 Sep 2012, 06:35 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    Is DC high end audio/video (or other home applications) in the fairly near future, and if so, might we see a Hub variant aimed at that market?

     

    In general, are there "upgrade" paths envisioned for early Hub adopters?
    4 Sep 2012, 06:02 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    I'm very interested to know if the Residential HUB, being behind the meter, is considered useful for integration into such as Viridity's application with PJM under FERC 755(?).

     

    Assuming that these McMansions tend to "cluster", several installation in the same area might be useful to the utilities, Viridity and the home owners if they were able to participate.

     

    I guess they might even qualify as a "micro-grid" in some respects.

     

    HardToLove
    4 Sep 2012, 06:14 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    I thought you had to have at least a 100kW inverter to play with what Viridity is doing.

     

    On the other hand, I think "Smart Grid" stuff that the power companies manage directly is where the Hub could play.

     

    No guarantees on accuracy here ... I'm no expert, just read a lot and retain some but certainly not all.
    4 Sep 2012, 06:22 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Wtb: I was thinking that minimum of load shedding would feasible with the HUB set up. Anything beyond would be gravy.

     

    HardToLove
    5 Sep 2012, 07:23 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3931) | Send Message
     
    Al, some suggested areas to explore with Rosewater principals.

     

    1. How does Vani Dantam relate to Rosewater Energy sales efforts?

     

    2. Why start with a 10/12 kWh HUB instead of something smaller?

     

    3. Where are HUBs (ex batteries) shipped from?

     

    4. Will Rosewater focus HUB marketing exclusively on high income single residence markets or also target some residential community associations, country clubs, etc.?

     

    5. What volume of sales would Rosewater regard as minimally successful?
    4 Sep 2012, 06:14 PM Reply Like
  • JohnM121
    , contributor
    Comments (359) | Send Message
     
    Let's be careful with the interrogation and not publicize anything that should be kept private. I'm as curious as anybody, but creating difficulty with another customer, providing information to competitors, or even a lawsuit is not going to push it along. Management has more to lose in money and ego than I do, and my sock drawer if full.
    4 Sep 2012, 09:25 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9597) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » John: Interrogation? Lawsuit? Those are pretty strong words.

     

    Then you follow up with..."creating diificulty with another customer." With whom?

     

    I'd much rather just learn who is the competition. What other markets does this HUB have potential for?

     

    This is an exciting development for both Rosewater and us Axion Power investors.

     

    If I was going, I'd maybe have a question or four, but to just hang with these Rosewater guys, would be enough in itself.
    5 Sep 2012, 12:46 AM Reply Like
  • Ishikawa
    , contributor
    Comments (177) | Send Message
     
    Maya, Greetings !

     

    If I were RW, I wouldn't appreciate investors of one of my suppliers snoop around and asking questions which they should be asking the company that they invested in. To us Axionistas, this is an exciting development but to RW this is the beginning of development of an exciting business. The strategies that they ponder should be critical to the success of their venture. To divulge all the nitty gritty proprietary information to investors of a supplier company just doesn't sound like good business practice. And, to let those information ended up in competitors possession is just unfathomable. I like what JP stated above

     

    " If I were to suggest anything to Al, it would be ask open-ended questions and let them talk about goals, strategies and what they've accomplished to date. Pic and Mario are salesmen and(at) heart, which means they love to sell themselves. Let them."

     

    The lists of questions by D-inv may not be pertinent. They should be directed to TG instead. Again, we are investors in Axion Power, not Rosewater. Those questions are more questions to do with Axion family. jmho !
    5 Sep 2012, 02:15 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    I figure the guys from RoseWater are pretty smart. They know we'll be there asking questions and so I figure they aren't going to answer anything they don't want out there. It never hurts to ask a question. We do it all the time on the CC's. We just have to be respectful about it and understand that there may be some questions that get responded to with the statement "no, I can't comment on that." IMHO
    5 Sep 2012, 04:31 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3931) | Send Message
     
    "The lists of questions by D-inv may not be pertinent. They should be directed to TG instead. Again, we are investors in Axion Power, not Rosewater. Those questions are more questions to do with Axion family."

     

    :-) Those questions are indeed pertinent to the Axion family and IMO that family has every right to pose them to an organization that has been granted EXCLUSIVE distribution rights to an Axion branded product.
    5 Sep 2012, 10:06 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9597) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » Al: If you could, can...whatever, could you sneak around and find out how much the flatscreen mounting device that electronically spans out over a mantle and then lowers itself 22 inches costs?

     

    While you're at it bro, another one of the things I want to know about is these new "beacons" that can broadcast High-Def throughout a home. No wiring needed for over 100 feet? Through walls? In HDMI High-Def? No wire fishing? Very cool.

     

    But then, if any part of you is remotely an audiophile, please let me know your choice of the coolest sounding/looking speakers at this
    expo. Especially the coolest hi-tech, wireless rear speaks of a 5:1 or 7:1 system.

     

    Hoping you enjoy the most fantastic home electronic everything show on the planet.
    5 Sep 2012, 02:19 AM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (498) | Send Message
     
    Guys, just to put some of you at ease.

     

    First, I won't be asking questions like the one about Vani Dantam and otherwise trying to elicit info related to individuals or the relationship between Axion and RW. If somehow I learned such information I wouldn't post it.

     

    At the shareholder meeting I attached myself to Mayascribe's "wing" for much of the time and watched how he interacted with all the people, most of whom he'd previously met.

     

    Pretty much all the axionistas followed his lead and were very respectful of the company and the individuals and were very careful not to post information that we thought an insider could potentially regret revealing.

     

    If I have doubts I'll reach out to JP for his advice (as I have in the past). Absolutely keep your questions coming. It can only help although I'm sure I'll learn far more by "osmosis" than I will from the answers to my questions.
    5 Sep 2012, 05:02 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (971) | Send Message
     
    apm

     

    Re RW

     

    Closed deals yet? (pre conference)
    Expectations to close any at conference?
    AXPW/HUB reaction/response from the sales/support/install "network"...i.e. good...anxious to move with it selling?

     

    Prime focus still residential?..i.e. any high net worth interested in "commercial" application for their business...2nd/3rd houses?

     

    Expected average sales range?

     

    Thanks!
    5 Sep 2012, 06:13 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    Al, don't forget "overseas sales leads?" (Saudi, India?)

     

    Thanks for "taking point for the Axionista Squad."
    6 Sep 2012, 11:57 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    How did you see Vani's role at CEDIA ... active participant or mostly an observer?

     

    I've been curious on whether he's focused mostly on auto whether he has such a great network, or he's casting a very wide net. I don't have a strong opinion on which he should be doing ... just curious.

     

    Any PowerCube discussion, or was there really no time for that?

     

    Thanks for getting the Nein-Nein-Nein question in!
    7 Sep 2012, 09:18 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2165) | Send Message
     
    wtb, I don't think public discussion of Vani (or other Axion employees, except TG) is useful or supportive. Just my opinion.
    7 Sep 2012, 10:07 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    Rick, I think if a company has a press release when you're hired, then you shouldn't mind or be surprised or offended about some questions about where your focus is. I would certainly agree with you on the rest of the employees that don't have company press releases with their names in it.

     

    This is really aimed at trying to understand where their marketing dollars and focus are going, but if he's in charge, surely he can stand a few questions.

     

    And that too is just my opinion!
    7 Sep 2012, 12:37 PM Reply Like
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