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Bill Ackman's Pershing Square says Herbalife (HLF +1.6%) "refuses" to release actual sales data,...

Bill Ackman's Pershing Square says Herbalife (HLF +1.6%) "refuses" to release actual sales data, which violates a California injunction, and is requesting that regulators "promptly" initiate a probe of the company. Ackman says the release of the actual data collected by its distributors would "put to rest" whether it is or isn't a pyramid scheme.
Comments (45)
  • Mongoose7916
    , contributor
    Comments (223) | Send Message
     
    Ackman is getting nervous.
    18 Jun 2013, 02:48 PM Reply Like
  • jd7
    , contributor
    Comments (42) | Send Message
     
    I'm sure he's worried, but he strikes me as reasonably patient (c.f. MBIA).
    18 Jun 2013, 03:00 PM Reply Like
  • Tabris
    , contributor
    Comments (5) | Send Message
     
    very very nervous
    18 Jun 2013, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • JOagain
    , contributor
    Comments (2) | Send Message
     
    Throw him a life vest. He's going to need it.
    18 Jun 2013, 04:26 PM Reply Like
  • Herbascum
    , contributor
    Comments (109) | Send Message
     
    Herbalife is a scam. Trust me.
    20 Jun 2013, 01:28 AM Reply Like
  • herbs4mike
    , contributor
    Comments (2070) | Send Message
     
    @Herbascum... I do not know why SA deleted my first post, but here it is again. And why should we trust you???? What do you have as proof to provide? I can provide you with pay stubs worth millions over 18 years. I can provide you with names of people that I taught, trained, and supported who are taking cash to the bank. Most of us, and I have no college, and no vocation. We have results.... you only have an opinion. Maybe I should say, I have work ethic to get the job done and be successful with results as proof, you? Just your opinion stating that it`s a scam. I saw so many successful distributors, individuals from all different backgrounds this past weekend in Bangkok, so many making 5 digit monthly incomes, how can you be right and thousands from everywhere be wrong. Thousands of distributors making tens of thousands of US Dollars a month. Here is something I learned long ago..... Money and success goes to those that work not those that talk.

     

    To SA.... There is no derogatory remarks in this comment. Nobody is being called names like stupid, or idiot. My opinion is professional. I`m stating that somebody is using an opinion without any proof and that is all.
    25 Jun 2013, 11:40 PM Reply Like
  • Jeffjacobjames
    , contributor
    Comments (561) | Send Message
     
    I think Ackman sounds more and more desperate as HLF continues to rise! ...and JCP continues to fall!
    18 Jun 2013, 03:01 PM Reply Like
  • Brandond
    , contributor
    Comments (346) | Send Message
     
    I guess nobody told Bill how to "manage a losing trade". Carl is speaking at the upcoming Alpha conference; would be just like Icahn to announce a tender or some other major moving event. Either way, I'm patient as HLF is worth $60/ share all day and most business is outside the US so not real concerned about the FTC.
    18 Jun 2013, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • MedGuy103
    , contributor
    Comments (583) | Send Message
     
    This guy is a major fool. Wow, just wow.
    18 Jun 2013, 03:09 PM Reply Like
  • J Collins
    , contributor
    Comments (178) | Send Message
     
    Ackman needs to cut his losses and cover his shorts ASAP. It will save him from much bigger losses down the road.
    18 Jun 2013, 03:14 PM Reply Like
  • Drew Robertson
    , contributor
    Comments (313) | Send Message
     
    How do you know he's not?
    18 Jun 2013, 03:16 PM Reply Like
  • ProfessorSmatt
    , contributor
    Comments (34) | Send Message
     
    He is nervous, snake, and will do anything for a $. What about the notion of him donating all his profits to a charity --hhmmm Interesting!
    18 Jun 2013, 03:22 PM Reply Like
  • TheWayItWorks
    , contributor
    Comments (31) | Send Message
     
    Ackman will be welcome to purchase my in the money call options in HLF in about 7 months from now. By then, the stock will be in such demand that he'll be forced to cover his short through call options held to expiration.
    18 Jun 2013, 03:30 PM Reply Like
  • Yteeld
    , contributor
    Comments (1061) | Send Message
     
    Why would any company in their right mind share this information with Ackman? The only people they need to share it with are the governing authorities if so requested. Let's be real here, no matter how this survey was conducted, Ackman will spin it his way.
    18 Jun 2013, 03:34 PM Reply Like
  • Xanadu45
    , contributor
    Comments (57) | Send Message
     
    Exactly
    18 Jun 2013, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • Brandond
    , contributor
    Comments (346) | Send Message
     
    If I'm an uber wealthy investor who has money will Ackman, I am surely asking for a redemption based on the immature manner in which Ackman has approached this entire thing (and his brilliant JCP thesis). I mean 2 and 20 for this brilliant investing acumen..please.
    18 Jun 2013, 04:25 PM Reply Like
  • CrimeBustersNow
    , contributor
    Comments (1807) | Send Message
     
    It's pretty straight forward: No spin required except by the $HLF side.

     

    David Thornton
    18 Jun 2013, 04:27 PM Reply Like
  • bernard_k50
    , contributor
    Comments (160) | Send Message
     
    Herby will come to the resque. He is late. Maybe tomorrw?
    18 Jun 2013, 04:29 PM Reply Like
  • G. Hudson
    , contributor
    Comments (296) | Send Message
     
    NOTE: NO DENIAL OF COVERING HIS SHORT POSITION!!!

     

    He can talk about other negative things about Herbalife but he won't specifically address D A Davidson's allegations that he is taking steps to cover his shares. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!
    18 Jun 2013, 04:47 PM Reply Like
  • Sennin
    , contributor
    Comments (41) | Send Message
     
    I do not believe Ackman is nervous at all, nor does he have reason to be. There is mounting political pressure to proceed with an FTC investigation of Herbalife. Whether it makes money or not is not the real issue - so does dealing dope - the REAL issue is whether it is a pyramid scheme or not - which is most definitely is. There is also a Federal Court case proceeding in California, and there is an injunction in that same state ordering Herbalife to keep records of exactly how much it sales to distributors versus regular retail consumers. Recently top company officials of Amway in India were arrested for operating a Pyramid Scheme, exactly what Herbalife is running. A year ago a Court in Belgium arrived at the same conclusion against Herbalife and it China it's business model is not permitted. The noose is around Herbalife's neck and it is in free-fall right now - sooner or later the rope will snap tight.It's Check Mate in five and no way out! Game over Herbalife!
    18 Jun 2013, 04:50 PM Reply Like
  • herbs4mike
    , contributor
    Comments (2070) | Send Message
     
    @Sennin.... You just missed Herbalife's Asia Extravaganzas right. Combined was 57,000 distributors that paid their own way plus paid for their own lodging and the event itself which wasn't cheap. It was totally out of control In the Bangkok event where 27,000 distributors went wild. I will try and post these on you tube or something. This event was so packed at the IMPACT auditorium in Bangkok that seats 23,000 had people sitting on the floor AND there was an overflow room seating 4,000 more. This is not a US company and Asia is already breaking records. I don't see herbalife Asia going anywhere except up with all the momentum.

     

    Also, I personally have downline in Brussels, and guess what..... They are doing the Herbalife business, buying product from the Herbalife headquarters in Brussels. So I don't know about the Brussel's ruling, but as of now, I'm getting small royalties in Euros, and it's going up...... Just like Herbalife's stock!!
    18 Jun 2013, 07:54 PM Reply Like
  • IncomeYield
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    pyramid, Ponzi, or multi-level marketing, distributors ...

     

    give actual examples of HLF transactions and the laws they break
    19 Jun 2013, 02:07 AM Reply Like
  • diaspora dora
    , contributor
    Comments (2) | Send Message
     
    If Herbalife truly has nothing to hide, it should have no problem releasing that data for the world to see, if it is truly serious about clearing its name and finally proving that it is indeed not a pyramid scheme.
    19 Jun 2013, 03:27 AM Reply Like
  • diaspora dora
    , contributor
    Comments (2) | Send Message
     
    This is more to the point. Its just a matter of time.
    19 Jun 2013, 03:28 AM Reply Like
  • herbs4mike
    , contributor
    Comments (2070) | Send Message
     
    In this country, the prosecution has to prove Herbalife has broken laws. Herbalife does not have to prove anything to be innocent. Furthermore, Anything herbalife puts out there, somebody will try to spin it their way, just like the Nielson report.

     

    Herbalife is doing exactly what it should be doing..... The herbalife business, supporting it:s distributors. It should not waste resources getting information for enemies to spin their way.
    21 Jun 2013, 09:41 AM Reply Like
  • Yteeld
    , contributor
    Comments (1061) | Send Message
     
    Sennin, garbage in garbage out. That explains your entire post. If those that believe this is an illegal pyramid scheme are so confident, why not just sit back and wait patiently for the ultimate shut down? You can't though because you need scare tactics to prove your point.
    18 Jun 2013, 05:01 PM Reply Like
  • Mongoose7916
    , contributor
    Comments (223) | Send Message
     
    Sennin care to explain why every comment you make is on HLF?
    18 Jun 2013, 05:08 PM Reply Like
  • DoowopDave
    , contributor
    Comments (216) | Send Message
     
    Ackman covered his short position with European puts. As far as his shorts are concerned, I have no desire to see them when the stock hits $60 and no SEC investigation in sight. Can't be pretty.
    18 Jun 2013, 05:16 PM Reply Like
  • TheMarketsLive
    , contributor
    Comments (18) | Send Message
     
    For those who do not understand how Ackman operates or depend on a "Royalty" check from the Herbalife pyramid scheme, I recommend you read Confidence Game: How Hedge Fund Manager Bill Ackman Called Wall Street's Bluff by Christine S. Richard
    18 Jun 2013, 05:32 PM Reply Like
  • IncomeYield
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Not truly a Ponzi scheme in the financial sense. It appears HLF reps consume a big chuck of the products themselves at wholesale prices and sell some downstream.

     

    There are many markets and products with layers of resellers.

     

    Interesting, but not really a Ponzi IMO.
    19 Jun 2013, 02:00 AM Reply Like
  • Sennin
    , contributor
    Comments (41) | Send Message
     
    I have no financial investment in Herbalife either way; no stocks, nothing. My interest is purely a matter of social-philosophy and what the "Herbalife phenomenon" says about American society.. If you are interested in learning more about my perspectives on that broader issue you can read my book "Mandated Report" available on amazon.com. http://amzn.to/14hol4T
    18 Jun 2013, 07:43 PM Reply Like
  • herbs4mike
    , contributor
    Comments (2070) | Send Message
     
    Ohhhhhh............ Now I see.......... Sennin has an agenda. That's ok....... I'll pass on your book. I would rather read from winners with a positive attitude
    18 Jun 2013, 07:56 PM Reply Like
  • Yteeld
    , contributor
    Comments (1061) | Send Message
     
    Now the truth comes out. Just another person trying to make a buck.
    19 Jun 2013, 09:14 AM Reply Like
  • Sennin
    , contributor
    Comments (41) | Send Message
     
    Well, my attitude is quite positive: I am very positive that sooner or later Herbalife will be revealed for what it really is, another means by which the poor and the ignorant are exploited by the rich and unscrupulous. Is that positive enough for you?
    18 Jun 2013, 08:36 PM Reply Like
  • Zeus2012
    , contributor
    Comments (697) | Send Message
     
    I would not write off Pershing yet. The concern is that there are politicians who will try to use this to make a name - exhibit one being Linda Sanchez of California (kind of like a female version of Elliot Spitzer).

     

    Thus, this thing is likely to grind out longer. I think Ackman is wrong but doubt he'll throw in the towel until he's exhaust all his political connections. As John Bronte astutely puts it, it'll be Pershing's version of the battle of Stalingrad.
    18 Jun 2013, 08:39 PM Reply Like
  • Yteeld
    , contributor
    Comments (1061) | Send Message
     
    I totally agree with you, that Ackman will attempt to grind this out. Let's face it, his whole reputation is on the line here, along with his gigantic ego. That is why you will see this company ultimately taken private, once all their ducks are in order. It's really the only way to rid themselves of this parasite.
    19 Jun 2013, 09:21 AM Reply Like
  • Sennin
    , contributor
    Comments (41) | Send Message
     
    If this is the battle of Stalingrad then Carl Icahn is Hitler, and Herbalife are the German forces. Successive legal battles will eventually bleed them dry even if they are quite successful at what they do - running a lucrative pyramid scheme.
    18 Jun 2013, 08:53 PM Reply Like
  • Mr toolman
    , contributor
    Comments (1091) | Send Message
     
    Well then Sennin, using your analogy that makes Ackman Stalin and you a member of the Communist Party. Not a nice bunch of people in their own right. As for your comments on Latinos and other minorities being oppressed by HLF, I would invite you to actually talk to a number of minorities who are distributors. As a person working in the Hispanic and Afro American communities I can assure you that the attitude is one of excitement. Latinos especially have an attitude of hard work and starting businesses. Herbalife is loved by many for the chance to help others improve their nutritional health and to grow their own business. Do some personal due diligence and stop by your local nutrition club. It will open your eyes on the sense of friendship and affection people have in that environment.
    19 Jun 2013, 08:45 AM Reply Like
  • Doug-
    , contributor
    Comments (362) | Send Message
     
    I figured that Wackman shorted Herbalife at about $47 a share based on when the short interest jumped by 20 Million in November and December of 2012 and I took the average price during that time. Not only is he losing $3 a share on paper at the moment, but he has had to pay out dividends as well. When he is forced to buy back, the stock will soar on his purchases.

     

    The CEO of Herbalife has said that the business is continually breaking records. Watch what happens when the record breaking earnings are reported again. This joke Ackman's Hedge Fund is severely underperforming the market. Ackman is a complete fraud.
    18 Jun 2013, 11:23 PM Reply Like
  • CrimeBustersNow
    , contributor
    Comments (1807) | Send Message
     
    "Sennin" Writes.....

     

    "Well, my attitude is quite positive: I am very positive that sooner or later Herbalife will be revealed for what it really is, another means by which the poor and the ignorant are exploited by the rich and unscrupulous. Is that positive enough for you?"

     

    Certainly is for me "Sennin"

     

    David Thornton
    19 Jun 2013, 12:27 AM Reply Like
  • Sennin
    , contributor
    Comments (41) | Send Message
     
    @CrimeBustersNow: Cocaine cartels make tons of money too, that is not the issue - even though many people are trying to make it the issue. The REAL issue with them as well as with MLMs such as Herbalife is that they do so at theexpense of the desperate, the naive, the undereducated. It is only a matter of time before the pressure forces even those politicians on the take to stop turning a blind eye to Herbalife and take legal action: votes are more powerful that campaign contributions and under-the-table kicbacks. Meanwhile the pressure keeps mounting against Herbalife. Cheers!
    19 Jun 2013, 03:00 AM Reply Like
  • Yteeld
    , contributor
    Comments (1061) | Send Message
     
    Your conclusion that everyone that is taken advantage of is either desperate or lacking sufficient education is laughable. Why not apply that same theory to all those that lost millions in the stock market? Remember, ninety percent of all new businesses fail in the first four years, no matter what type of business it is. Does that mean most of those businesses should be considered pyramid schemes? If Ackman and the shorts feel so strongly about HLF releasing the data surrounding the survey, why then does Ackman not release his letter form the law firm that told him that HLF was in fact a pyramid scheme. Disclosure for not just one but for all.
    19 Jun 2013, 09:30 AM Reply Like
  • Yteeld
    , contributor
    Comments (1061) | Send Message
     
    A new dynamic duo.............CrimeB... and Sennin. One is trying to sell a book and the other, I'll let the rest of you decide. What would society do if we did not have them to protect us?
    19 Jun 2013, 01:47 PM Reply Like
  • CrimeBustersNow
    , contributor
    Comments (1807) | Send Message
     
    MLM is now targeting Canadian students in elementary school; start up kits the whole MLM “Ball of Wax.”
    *****
    Excerpt: “ I have been informed that a company called Vemma is approaching students through Facebook to become “brand agents” (sales representatives) to sell their drink Verve! The drink is not sold in stores. They target middle and high schools students (ages 14 to 16 and over). They have a strong marketing plan, there is a cost for the start-up kit, and messaging on their website tells students that becoming a Verve Brand rep will help them develop leadership and business skills, as well as make them a lot of money. There is also an incentive program that offers cars and more. The students are strongly encouraged to recruit others as “brand agents”. Their product is an energy drink – low in caffeine with added supplements.”

     

    http://bit.ly/11COF7H
    21 Jun 2013, 08:20 AM Reply Like
  • CrimeBustersNow
    , contributor
    Comments (1807) | Send Message
     
    "Yteeld" .... I did not say everyone that is taken advantage of is either desperate or lacking sufficient education, that is indeed laughable.

     

    As my website points out

     

    "Like hard drugs, MLM does not
    ...discriminate based on race or intelligence."

     

    David Thornton
    21 Jun 2013, 08:25 AM Reply Like
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