Seeking Alpha

Musk responds to battery fire

  • "For consumers concerned about fire risk, there should be absolutely zero doubt that it is safer to power a car with a battery than a large tank of highly flammable liquid," says Elon Musk, responding to the battery fire in the Model S earlier this week. "The combustion energy of our battery pack is only about 10% of the energy contained in a gasoline tank and is divided into 16 modules with firewalls in between. As a consequence, the effective combustion potential is only about 1% that of the fuel in a comparable gasoline sedan."
  • Into the close, Tesla (TSLA +4.3%) is adding slightly to a big session gain.
  • From the owner of damaged Tesla: "The car performed very well under such an extreme test ... I am also an investor and have to say that the response I am observing is really supportive of the future for electric vehicles."
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Comments (65)
  • Esekla
    , contributor
    Comments (3819) | Send Message
     
    Just as predicted by market fundamentals here: http://seekingalpha.co...
    4 Oct 2013, 04:03 PM Reply Like
  • joe_dirt365
    , contributor
    Comments (90) | Send Message
     
    beastmode!!! Electric Revolution here we come!!!
    4 Oct 2013, 04:15 PM Reply Like
  • Tesla Revolution
    , contributor
    Comments (181) | Send Message
     
    That's what I'm talkin' about !!
    4 Oct 2013, 04:20 PM Reply Like
  • bdy
    , contributor
    Comments (157) | Send Message
     
    Electric revolution? There is zero percent chance that me or anyone I know will ever consider buying an electric car unless technology can allow 400 mile range or more and even then it just sounds like pure inconvenience. I'd saw a poll that said 12% of people would consider buying an electric car but I think the real number is more like 1%. Easier to say you would but to actually buy one is a different story.
    4 Oct 2013, 04:37 PM Reply Like
  • joe_dirt365
    , contributor
    Comments (90) | Send Message
     
    lol you funny man. But seriously the cars of the future are all going to be Electric, so you may not get one bdy but your kids and grandchildren most certainly will.
    - Electric Revolutionary
    4 Oct 2013, 04:50 PM Reply Like
  • Philip Marlowe
    , contributor
    Comments (1289) | Send Message
     
    The Tesla currently has a range of 300. Would an extra 100 miles of range make that much of a difference? Most gasoline cars have a range of about 300.

     

    Anyways, if the market demands it, there will be an electric car with a range of 400. The technology is here.
    4 Oct 2013, 05:26 PM Reply Like
  • blsteen
    , contributor
    Comments (5) | Send Message
     
    Bought a Model S and love it. It's MORE convenient than an ICE car: Just plug it in like your cell phone. Forget gas stations!
    4 Oct 2013, 05:36 PM Reply Like
  • sarichter
    , contributor
    Comments (497) | Send Message
     
    I wouldn't have an issue with 300 miles if I knew that range was good for each 'fill up' for 10 years. This is battery power and it diminishes quite quickly... that and I'm waiting to see if Tesla can push out economically priced EVs. Most people can't afford (nor want to) 70K vehicles. Heck... the gasoline powered vehicles I buy are used and I've never spent over 15K.
    4 Oct 2013, 05:42 PM Reply Like
  • The Fox
    , contributor
    Comments (710) | Send Message
     
    Actually, in real world driving it is about 240 miles. A person I know has one (and loves it). The range is a problem.
    4 Oct 2013, 10:29 PM Reply Like
  • Jack Rice
    , contributor
    Comments (1056) | Send Message
     
    "that me...would ever consider buying an electric car"

     

    No, I don't suppose you would.
    5 Oct 2013, 12:22 AM Reply Like
  • awakeinwa
    , contributor
    Comments (365) | Send Message
     
    Prius running NmH batteries a decade later still report no perceptible degradation in charge retention. Either peeps are giving Toyota too much credit or dissing Tesla a tad too much
    5 Oct 2013, 01:01 AM Reply Like
  • bsbomber
    , contributor
    Comments (13) | Send Message
     
    It is obvious that you have not driven a Tesla. They are AWESOME!!
    ICE autos are 10 times more dangerous than a Tesla.
    5 Oct 2013, 01:36 AM Reply Like
  • techinvestor71
    , contributor
    Comments (2) | Send Message
     
    Recognize that technology commercializations follows a familiar path starting with so called early adopters. Some of us are not early adopters which means we don't quite appreciate the technology yet. What would be wiser for those of us in the category is to look for the potential and to understand where the technology is going. Certainly when the disk drive was introduced at quite a bit less storage than a main frame magnetic storage system... There were those of us that said 'Bahhhh who would ever buy one of those' .
    5 Oct 2013, 01:41 AM Reply Like
  • Stephen Pace
    , contributor
    Comments (558) | Send Message
     
    @sarichter: I am running this experiment now. I am keeping my Model S for at least 10 years, and while I expect I'll lose some range over 10 years, it will likely only be 20%. You say "battery range diminishes quite quickly" but that is not borne out by Tesla Roadster owners that have had the car since 2008, and the Model S has better battery management and cell chemistry than those vehicles. Even if I had only 30% of my original range, it would still meet my daily driving needs, and I could always spring for the new 500 mile battery that will no doubt be available by then.
    5 Oct 2013, 02:10 AM Reply Like
  • Stephen Pace
    , contributor
    Comments (558) | Send Message
     
    @The Fox: Sure, if you drive 75+ mph, you'll get less range. But if you drive on SuperCharger routes, even 240 miles isn't a problem. We just got our third SuperCharger here in Texas and we'll have two more in the next couple of months.
    5 Oct 2013, 02:12 AM Reply Like
  • Chezterr
    , contributor
    Comments (22) | Send Message
     
    You'll have your 400 mile range in considerably less than 10 years from now.. Perhaps even as soon as 5-6 years, considering the speed at which battery/electrical-energy storage technology is advancing.
    5 Oct 2013, 02:32 AM Reply Like
  • blsteen
    , contributor
    Comments (5) | Send Message
     
    Inconvenient?? Hardly. We bought a Model S and love it. Plug it in just like your cell phone. WAY more convenient that an ICE. Forget gas stations!
    5 Oct 2013, 04:27 AM Reply Like
  • sarichter
    , contributor
    Comments (497) | Send Message
     
    I state the diminishing quality of batteries from appliances and electronics that use battery technology that I've owned (or still do). I'm sure these are much higher quality batteries and perhaps Tesla will do free swaps... I have no idea. However, I'm not in the financial position (as most people aren't) to test it right now :) I have no doubt it's an awesome car, but until they can produce a car for under 25K, I just don't see this being a blockbuster... just yet.
    5 Oct 2013, 10:12 AM Reply Like
  • 123man
    , contributor
    Comments (1259) | Send Message
     
    "battery power and it diminishes quite quickly" - this statement is based on what evidence? - do you own an electric car, a laptop, a flashlight? - my Model S charges every night from 12AM to about 4AM, if I need a mid day boost for some long distance driving, I'll get 60mph at home and 200mph at a Supercharger - either way I'm good -
    5 Oct 2013, 11:56 AM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1921) | Send Message
     
    Saritcher,
    We your battery concerns, you really don't need to worry too much about a Tesla like that. The battery chemistry is designed for longevity.

     

    Most likely your electronics use either LCO or LMO for the batteries. These are NOT known to have long cycle lives, but it's OK, you replace your phone every 2 years, laptop every 3, etc, etc. It is really what suits the purpose and what is acceptable. Iphone 4 not holding a charge after 3 years, acceptable since you probably have a new one already.

     

    Furthermore, look at the way the batteries are being used, electronics, quick charging kills the batteries, but with the Tesla, even the supercharger is not quick by electronics standards.

     

    Then you have to look at the usage, typically in electronics you keep them at a high state of charge and drain them quickly down to 0% or some low number. This is Horrible for lithium batteries, occasionally it's OK, but not every time.

     

    Thirdly, look at the cooling systems and exposure to heat, the Tesla has a water cooling system, other electronics don't.

     

    So far, there are 4 data points all with more than 20,000 miles with little to no range loss. One person has 30,000 miles on his Model S and has not experienced any degradation.
    5 Oct 2013, 10:41 PM Reply Like
  • robvelez87
    , contributor
    Comments (81) | Send Message
     
    I would buy Tesla Model-S even if it came with 150miles.
    5 Oct 2013, 11:54 PM Reply Like
  • robvelez87
    , contributor
    Comments (81) | Send Message
     
    Agreed
    5 Oct 2013, 11:55 PM Reply Like
  • robvelez87
    , contributor
    Comments (81) | Send Message
     
    He's just a short that's lost to much money to buy his own Tesla lol
    5 Oct 2013, 11:56 PM Reply Like
  • marshgre
    , contributor
    Comments (791) | Send Message
     
    @stephenpace You wouldn't mind getting in touch with me in 10 or 11 years. I figure with 10 years of deprecation your Model S would make an excellent "off to college" car for my youngest child. We can discuss price then, but do me a favour and look after your Model S for her. --> Long $TSLA and slowly building up enough to buy a Gen III while dreaming of a Model S.
    7 Oct 2013, 11:53 PM Reply Like
  • Jack Rice
    , contributor
    Comments (1056) | Send Message
     
    The dramatic fire seen on the viral video was at the leading edge of the battery pack that collided with the monstrous "metal debris" that tore up the front end.

     

    The rabbits were flushed and the stock took a dive. Here's the entry point many have been waiting for. For the short traders in the 90s who flipped back out at yesterday's lows, congratulations.
    4 Oct 2013, 04:16 PM Reply Like
  • bdy
    , contributor
    Comments (157) | Send Message
     
    Sold my short positions Wednesday and Thursday and reloaded on a few today. Also, I made some profits today buying a few weekly calls for the dead cat bounce today :ppppp
    4 Oct 2013, 04:38 PM Reply Like
  • Mark Krieger
    , contributor
    Comments (4675) | Send Message
     
    bdy: sold your short positions? Don't you mean you bought to cover?
    4 Oct 2013, 05:44 PM Reply Like
  • Jack Rice
    , contributor
    Comments (1056) | Send Message
     
    Dead cat bounce.... You wish.
    5 Oct 2013, 12:16 AM Reply Like
  • bdy
    , contributor
    Comments (157) | Send Message
     
    Yes bought to cover and opened a few bear put spread today.
    5 Oct 2013, 03:54 AM Reply Like
  • bdy
    , contributor
    Comments (157) | Send Message
     
    Jack rice, I was joking calling it a dead cat bounce but it very easily could be.
    5 Oct 2013, 03:55 AM Reply Like
  • Glenn Abrett
    , contributor
    Comments (1937) | Send Message
     
    Mark. Pshaw. bdy bought a maxwell predicting machine from me the other day. He can now predict the exact short term tops and bottoms of all stocks. He will soon be very wealthy. You can be too -- only $3,000,000 for the basic model. Advanced models that can predict how your wife will react to any given statement cost a bit more.
    5 Oct 2013, 10:22 AM Reply Like
  • bdy
    , contributor
    Comments (157) | Send Message
     
    Okay :)
    5 Oct 2013, 12:30 PM Reply Like
  • orthophonist
    , contributor
    Comments (126) | Send Message
     
    Was there a flammable liquid in the frunk? Was the video staged?
    4 Oct 2013, 04:21 PM Reply Like
  • AlexiaEP
    , contributor
    Comments (1076) | Send Message
     
    Mr. Orthophonist, if you simply read the link provided in this blurb you'd have the answer to your questions. Seriously, just read.
    4 Oct 2013, 04:52 PM Reply Like
  • nwdiver
    , contributor
    Comments (411) | Send Message
     
    Looks like the tires caught fire... Elon claims first-responders mistakenly punched hole in a fire wall in the "Frunk"... Not sure if the tires were on fire before or after this...
    4 Oct 2013, 10:26 PM Reply Like
  • rickraff
    , contributor
    Comments (318) | Send Message
     
    A buy opportunity...TSLA going much higher...
    4 Oct 2013, 04:59 PM Reply Like
  • joe_dirt365
    , contributor
    Comments (90) | Send Message
     
    yup can someone loan me money at the interest rate that the banks get pleaseeeee??
    4 Oct 2013, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • chfp
    , contributor
    Comments (595) | Send Message
     
    Shorts will cry foul, as predicted. "Elon Musk, our lord & savior" LOL
    4 Oct 2013, 05:15 PM Reply Like
  • joe_dirt365
    , contributor
    Comments (90) | Send Message
     
    the alpha and the omega.
    4 Oct 2013, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • robvelez87
    , contributor
    Comments (81) | Send Message
     
    God of all Gods lol
    6 Oct 2013, 12:00 AM Reply Like
  • Weitzendorf
    , contributor
    Comments (2) | Send Message
     
    Have you ever heard of another car company being so supportive in such an event? Elon as always addresses this issue in a very positive and active way. He does not deny anything. I thank Elon for boosting innovation!
    4 Oct 2013, 05:35 PM Reply Like
  • awakeinwa
    , contributor
    Comments (365) | Send Message
     
    first time I've seen the actual email with customer attached to a PR piece; talk about transparent and direct.
    5 Oct 2013, 01:03 AM Reply Like
  • B2Alpha
    , contributor
    Comments (2) | Send Message
     
    Well, the story here should really be how Safe the Model S actually is. Car warns driver, who walks away with plenty of time, car inherently contains damage by design, and car manufacturer (Tesla) collects all the data remotely for analysis.
    Let's see; This instead of a gas tank exploding and instantly immolating car, driver and anything nearby.... Happens many times every day. Why all the negative drama? This is a real world proof of concept and Good news!
    4 Oct 2013, 05:35 PM Reply Like
  • Glenn Abrett
    , contributor
    Comments (1937) | Send Message
     
    B2 -- you can bet your bottom dollar that the story will become how safe a tsla is. Whatever else anyone can say about anything concerning tesla, I think everyone can agree that Musk is the absolute master of PR and Spin -- That the facts are generally behind him doesn't hurt one bit either.
    5 Oct 2013, 02:25 AM Reply Like
  • rasanders22
    , contributor
    Comments (581) | Send Message
     
    I doubt any ICE would have ignited from this damage. How often do you hear about ICE cars bursting into flames. It does happen, but it is rare. This isn't the movies. Gasoline is actually pretty hard to get to burn. Either way, I was impressed with Tesla's handling of this situation.
    5 Oct 2013, 03:35 PM Reply Like
  • howard.hyman
    , contributor
    Comments (27) | Send Message
     
    I would bet Musk is correct in his statement re: battery fire. The stock is still very risky at this - but the battery fire really is a non issue.
    4 Oct 2013, 05:36 PM Reply Like
  • Mark Krieger
    , contributor
    Comments (4675) | Send Message
     
    HIGH RISK high REWARD!

     

    After a 5 fold runup, the risk is still there but the potential reward has faded!
    4 Oct 2013, 05:46 PM Reply Like
  • DonAmp
    , contributor
    Comments (164) | Send Message
     
    I just taste the water and bought #1000 of TSLA under $100 not long ago.
    Today I regret, and should have gotten more.
    TSLA will go back to $190 and will up to $200 in no time!
    I am long TSLA and most of the time disregard fundamental like when I go to see my doctor and I don't listen to him.
    4 Oct 2013, 06:54 PM Reply Like
  • Weighing Machine
    , contributor
    Comments (816) | Send Message
     
    i farted. also, tesla is very expensive.
    4 Oct 2013, 07:07 PM Reply Like
  • Tales From The Future
    , contributor
    Comments (6071) | Send Message
     
    Finally, this battery non-event is over. At least CNBC could show the fire clip 100 times, feature talking heads and fill airtime. Unless a TSLA self-ignites (as happened with Fisker and other EVs), there is no problem - and this event is not likely, as seen by the many safe miles driven by Model S and Roadster owners and the official safety tests.

     

    The problem is the general valuation of this stock, which is way above its intrinsic value at the moment. With the upcoming dilution and competition TSLA should not be trading above $100 once the market comes back to its senses, which it will sooner or later.

     

    Damodaran's valuation still is useful and he arrives at $70:

     

    http://bit.ly/1dUwTHM

     

    You can play with numbers yourself with the spreadsheet included in the link.
    5 Oct 2013, 02:43 AM Reply Like
  • surferbroadband
    , contributor
    Comments (3113) | Send Message
     
    Nobody has the full statement that Elon Musk put out.

     

    Here it is. The reader can decide.

     

    October 4, 2013
    About the Model S fire
    By Elon Musk, Chairman, Product Architect & CEO
    Earlier this week, a Model S traveling at highway speed struck a large metal object, causing significant damage to the vehicle. A curved section that fell off a semi-trailer was recovered from the roadway near where the accident occurred and, according to the road crew that was on the scene, appears to be the culprit. The geometry of the object caused a powerful lever action as it went under the car, punching upward and impaling the Model S with a peak force on the order of 25 tons. Only a force of this magnitude would be strong enough to punch a 3 inch diameter hole through the quarter inch armor plate protecting the base of the vehicle.

     

    The Model S owner was nonetheless able to exit the highway as instructed by the onboard alert system, bring the car to a stop and depart the vehicle without injury. A fire caused by the impact began in the front battery module – the battery pack has a total of 16 modules – but was contained to the front section of the car by internal firewalls within the pack. Vents built into the battery pack directed the flames down towards the road and away from the vehicle.

     

    When the fire department arrived, they observed standard procedure, which was to gain access to the source of the fire by puncturing holes in the top of the battery's protective metal plate and applying water. For the Model S lithium-ion battery, it was correct to apply water (vs. dry chemical extinguisher), but not to puncture the metal firewall, as the newly created holes allowed the flames to then vent upwards into the front trunk section of the Model S. Nonetheless, a combination of water followed by dry chemical extinguisher quickly brought the fire to an end.

     

    It is important to note that the fire in the battery was contained to a small section near the front by the internal firewalls built into the pack structure. At no point did fire enter the passenger compartment.

     

    Had a conventional gasoline car encountered the same object on the highway, the result could have been far worse. A typical gasoline car only has a thin metal sheet protecting the underbody, leaving it vulnerable to destruction of the fuel supply lines or fuel tank, which causes a pool of gasoline to form and often burn the entire car to the ground. In contrast, the combustion energy of our battery pack is only about 10% of the energy contained in a gasoline tank and is divided into 16 modules with firewalls in between. As a consequence, the effective combustion potential is only about 1% that of the fuel in a comparable gasoline sedan.

     

    The nationwide driving statistics make this very clear: there are 150,000 car fires per year according to the National Fire Protection Association, and Americans drive about 3 trillion miles per year according to the Department of Transportation. That equates to 1 vehicle fire for every 20 million miles driven, compared to 1 fire in over 100 million miles for Tesla. This means you are 5 times more likely to experience a fire in a conventional gasoline car than a Tesla!

     

    For consumers concerned about fire risk, there should be absolutely zero doubt that it is safer to power a car with a battery than a large tank of highly flammable liquid.

     

    — Elon
    Below is our email correspondence with the Model S owner that experienced the fire, reprinted with his permission:

     

    From: robert Carlson
    Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 12:53 PM
    To: Jerome Guillen
    Subject: carlson 0389

     

    Mr. Guillen,

     

    Thanks for the support. I completely agree with the assessment to date. I guess you can test for everything, but some other celestial bullet comes along and challenges your design. I agree that the car performed very well under such an extreme test. The batteries went through a controlled burn which the internet images really exaggerates. Anyway, I am still a big fan of your car and look forward to getting back into one. Justin offered a white loaner--thanks. I am also an investor and have to say that the response I am observing is really supportive of the future for electric vehicles. I was thinking this was bound to happen, just not to me. But now it is out there and probably gets a sigh of relief as a test and risk issue-this "doomsday" event has now been tested, and the design and engineering works.

     

    rob carlson
    On Oct 3, 2013, at 12:29 PM, Jerome Guillen wrote:

     

    Dear Mr. Carlson:

     

    I am the VP of sales and service for Tesla, reporting directly to Elon Musk, Tesla's CEO.

     

    I am sorry to hear that you experienced a collision in your Model S 2 days ago. We are happy that the Model S performed in such a way that you were not injured in the accident and that nobody else was hurt.

     

    I believe you have been in contact with Justin Samson, our service manager, since the accident. We are following this case extremely closely and we have sent a team of experts to review your vehicle. All indications are that your Model S drove over large, oddly-shaped metal object which impacted the leading edge of the vehicle's undercarriage and rotated into the underside of the vehicle ("pole vault" effect). This is a highly uncommon occurrence.

     

    Based on our review thus far, we believe that the Model S performed as designed by limiting the resulting fire to the affected zones only. Given the significant intensity of the impact, which managed to pierce the 1/4 inch bottom plate (something that is extremely hard to do), the Model S energy containment functions operated correctly. In particular, the top cover of the battery provided a strong barrier and there was no apparent propagation of the fire into the cabin. This ensured cabin integrity and occupant safety, which remains our most important goal.

     

    We very much appreciate your support, patience and understanding while we proceed with the investigation. Justin keeps me closely informed. Please feel free to contact me directly, if you have any question or concern.

     

    Best regards,
    Jerome Guillen I VP, WW sales and service
    5 Oct 2013, 01:00 PM Reply Like
  • Patent News
    , contributor
    Comments (1454) | Send Message
     
    pending article on Tesla battery dangers.
    5 Oct 2013, 08:25 PM Reply Like
  • robvelez87
    , contributor
    Comments (81) | Send Message
     
    How did you predict another "Bear" article on Tesla? You must be a genius!
    6 Oct 2013, 12:02 AM Reply Like
  • Patent News
    , contributor
    Comments (1454) | Send Message
     
    http://seekingalpha.co...
    6 Oct 2013, 05:56 PM Reply Like
  • Jack Rice
    , contributor
    Comments (1056) | Send Message
     
    Rob, because he's self-promoting his bear article, lol.
    6 Oct 2013, 06:50 PM Reply Like
  • robvelez87
    , contributor
    Comments (81) | Send Message
     
    Tesla bulls. Do we think will deliver this quarter? And what PT do we have the end of next year? I just want to hear numbers...even 400$ cause it's possible
    6 Oct 2013, 12:04 AM Reply Like
  • Patent News
    , contributor
    Comments (1454) | Send Message
     
    why not 10,000? you really believe tesla is worth almost 50 billion?

     

    that must be the joke of the year!
    6 Oct 2013, 05:57 PM Reply Like
  • DonAmp
    , contributor
    Comments (164) | Send Message
     
    I would say... TSLA price at around $180.98 is still not expensive (but not cheap as it was early of this year when it was $34.65 on March 1, 2013. My confidence that TSLA will rebound back to $190 by this week or next, and should be up to above $200+ by the year end.
    e.g., I bought Apple in early 2009 at under $100, and people were crying that it was too expensive. I was glad that I bought few large buckets of Apple back then. Look at the Apple price in September 2012, that I sold 1/2 of, and still keep 1/2 of until today.
    By the way... I got some more of TSLA last week while most some of investors were selling off.
    I am long TSLA, and plan to buy Tesla Model S, as soon as I got the chance which is real soon...
    6 Oct 2013, 02:49 PM Reply Like
  • AndrzejH
    , contributor
    Comments (19) | Send Message
     
    It is important to note that the fire in the battery was contained to a small section near the front .Looking at video fire is huge .What if that metal make hole in the middle of the car .KFC comes to mind . Basing investment on CEO statements is bad idea.
    6 Oct 2013, 03:15 PM Reply Like
  • Patent News
    , contributor
    Comments (1454) | Send Message
     
    the CEO conducted no investigation and is just protecting his own butt and to keep the stock price high so company can unload new secondary shares onto fanboys.
    6 Oct 2013, 05:58 PM Reply Like
  • robvelez87
    , contributor
    Comments (81) | Send Message
     
    Tesla did do their own investigation, read something, why don't you.
    7 Oct 2013, 02:59 AM Reply Like
  • marshgre
    , contributor
    Comments (791) | Send Message
     
    Please stop using the derogatory term "fanboy" to describe people who have a position that is contrary to your own. Sinking to the level of derogatory and insulting name calling does not lend any credibility to your arguments.
    8 Oct 2013, 12:04 AM Reply Like
  • Rik1381
    , contributor
    Comments (1420) | Send Message
     
    "the CEO conducted no investigation"

     

    You don't know that, you have no factual basis for that assertion.

     

    "and is just protecting his own butt"

     

    You don't know that, you have no factual basis for that assertion.

     

    "and to keep the stock price high so company can unload new secondary shares onto fanboys."

     

    You don't know that, you have no factual basis for that assertion.
    8 Oct 2013, 01:22 AM Reply Like
  • Rik1381
    , contributor
    Comments (1420) | Send Message
     
    "Please stop using the derogatory term "fanboy" to describe people who have a position that is contrary to your own. Sinking to the level of derogatory and insulting name calling does not lend any credibility to your arguments."

     

    Indeed, and the stream of personal attacks from the author also violates SA rules.
    8 Oct 2013, 01:24 AM Reply Like
  • jabronies
    , contributor
    Comments (7) | Send Message
     
    These Teslas are dangerous, everyone knows gasoline powered vehicles never catch on fire.
    6 Oct 2013, 09:16 PM Reply Like
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