Seeking Alpha

Efforts afoot in New York to ban Tesla Motors' direct sales method

  • Tesla Motors (TSLA -2.1%) could be facing a battle in New York to sell cars directly consumers with auto dealers urging state legislators to issue rules banning the practice.
  • There is no legislation in place at the moment in the state.
  • The EV automaker is expected to continue fighting auto dealer groups in the courts to keep its direct sales method thriving.
Comments (91)
  • dacama1
    , contributor
    Comments (211) | Send Message
     
    Unwarranted restraint of trade.
    14 Mar, 10:21 AM Reply Like
  • espocelgene
    , contributor
    Comment (1) | Send Message
     
    I think its such BS that a TESLA needs to be sold via a dealer. Cut out the dirty, greasy middle people. They only make money by forcing youth service their vehicles via the OEM parts nonsense.

     

    Is a Scam - fight on Elon. You are carving a new path and we love you for it.
    Christie - you stink for going down the dealer lobby path. This country was built on innovation. Politicians should stay away
    14 Mar, 01:04 PM Reply Like
  • tomfrompv
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    Musk is exactly right on this issue. The real news is that Chris Christie is no free market guy. Just another Progressive trying to control people via regulation.

     

    The problem Musk has is that his company relies on regulations and taxes passed by other Progressives to stay in business. Thus he is not likely to get much support from true free market people. Live by govt regulation, die by govt regulation.
    14 Mar, 04:42 PM Reply Like
  • Locked Down Investments
    , contributor
    Comments (1322) | Send Message
     
    I think the answer here is to allow ALL alternative energy vehicles (full BEV, Fuel Cell, Nat Gas, etc) to be sold directly by manufacturers.
    This would provide a more natural discount on the vehicles than govt incentives/subsidies and should be more politically favourable. Everybody wins (consumer, taxpayer, manufacturer) except the dealers (but since alternative energy vehicles are far less than 1% of their sales currently they shouldn't object too much).

     

    It would also provide an incentive for manufacturers to produce more of these vehicles as they could reep higher profit margins and slowly over time phase out the dealers as they phase out gasoline and diesel powered vehicles (yes I know it will be awhile).

     

    If they wanted they could put an expiry date on this legislation such as "Alternative energy cars can be sold direct by the manufacturer until 2025" or something like that. When 2025 rolls around it could be reviewed. Or you could put a threshold like "When alternative energy vehicles total more than 25% of all vehicles sold they may no longer be sold directly by manufacturers"

     

    It would also level the playing field between Tesla and big auto in terms of their fears of Tesla taking over the EV market thanks to its ability to sell direct. I think it is this fear that is causing the manufacturers to support the dealers in terms of fighting Tesla state by state.

     

    A proposal of this nature would cause the manufacturers to back off and the dealers would have to fight it out on their own for a very small % of the market.
    14 Mar, 05:30 PM Reply Like
  • joeinslw@gmail.com
    , contributor
    Comments (575) | Send Message
     
    Tesla and Elon is not saying that these manufacturers can't sell on the internet, it'a free market, everyone should be able to sell that way, Nat Gas or Gas or anyone.
    What Christie and his gang wants is to stifle Tesla, or keep them from selling at all anywhere in NJ, because that board said "Tesla will crush the competition". They actually would, so it's not because Tesla is trying to keep anyone else to sell directly, they don't want Tesla to sell in their State at all, or anyway they can, they just what Tesla to go away, and we know that is not going to happen, but that's what they want in NJ.
    To me that is totally un-american, because that is how this country began, people came here from other countries and sold they products, and when others did the same thing, competition began, without competition we have a controlled country that nobody wants to live in.
    Look at Ford, they sell cars and trucks online, I don't hear that Christie is stopping Ford from selling online in NJ.
    Where do these politicians think we live? This is the land of the free, so many people died for our freedoms, and were not going to change it, we like our freedoms that way, and we want our freedom that way.
    15 Mar, 04:55 PM Reply Like
  • tomfrompv
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    Joe,
    Your comment sounds great until we get to the part about govt regulations and subsidies that helped Tesla. If you want a free market where people compete on value not govt regulation, then you have to be against all the goodies Musk & Company get, too.
    15 Mar, 11:20 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1796) | Send Message
     
    Tom,
    I think we can all agree any subsidy to any industry does not make economic sense (except maybe orphan drugs, drugs made to treat diseases that only a handful of people have and the company would not pursue the avenue otherwise- hence not getting treatment for those people, that is a societal decision good one to alleviate suffering and death)

     

    But others, no subsidies. The problem is that every country has some sort of subsidy for almost every industry. oil companies get tax breaks on land leases, tasty cake gets tax breaks from the city of Philadelphia, farmers gets subsidies, some places put tariffs on goods. There is no such thing as a completely free unregulated market that is because throughout history someone has abused it and rules had to be put in place.
    Once a rule or subsidy is in place, when a new entrant enters, it is difficult is they do not get a similar amount subsidy.

     

    Actually Musk is not really getting many "credits" now and the EV subsidy for his EVs should be going away sometime in the near future.
    16 Mar, 08:30 AM Reply Like
  • 11oCroc
    , contributor
    Comments (11) | Send Message
     
    Cut the crap about Progressives. Fact - all 3- States banning Tesla sales ( AZ, TX, NJ ) have GOP Governors.
    16 Mar, 12:01 PM Reply Like
  • tomfrompv
    , contributor
    Comments (3104) | Send Message
     
    11oCroc,

     

    Progressives infest both parties in the US. While Democrats are almost 100% Progs, Republicans have their fair share too.

     

    Teddy Roosevelt was a Progressive, so is Chris Christie. Remember, the very nature of the Prog is to control others, there is no better place than the govt to do that.
    16 Mar, 05:08 PM Reply Like
  • joeinslw@gmail.com
    , contributor
    Comments (575) | Send Message
     
    espocelgene--- It's much more than BS, it's an action that you might expect in Russia where the people don't have the FREEDOMS we have and fought for

     

    Now we have to worry that TESLA will loose it's rights to sell where they want to or where they can? What kind of freedom is that?

     

    When Toyota, Subaru, and other foreign companies that are not U.S. want to build in their country and sell online, NO PROBLEM, they can sell their cars online, but when we have an ALL AMERICAN MADE CAR made in California like TESLA MOTORS, these politicians who were elected by AMERICANS want to take that freedom away from them, or us.

     

    What's wrong with this picture?
    What's going on in this country?
    Is money always the deciding factor these days?
    Is greed the deciding factor in the U.S., or did they forget about these FREEDOMS?
    17 Mar, 10:52 AM Reply Like
  • alext1379
    , contributor
    Comments (706) | Send Message
     
    Model S & X isn't what scares dealerships, its the 3rd Gen car geared more to the masses that scares them. Direct sales means perhaps a default $3K discount.
    14 Mar, 10:27 AM Reply Like
  • Tri Duong
    , contributor
    Comments (1454) | Send Message
     
    I don't see direct sales as a discount. I see dealerships as an unnecessary premium. They know their business model is nothing more than a middle man scam and easy money. That's why they're holding onto it since it's their livelihood.
    14 Mar, 10:36 AM Reply Like
  • rennatus
    , contributor
    Comments (34) | Send Message
     
    Where do Tesla buyers go for service?
    14 Mar, 10:29 AM Reply Like
  • EarlyMorningTrader
    , contributor
    Comments (65) | Send Message
     
    Tesla owners take their cars to the Tesla service centers - separate from the showrooms/galleries.

     

    And there's another issue - what service? No oil to change.

     

    The 10,000 mile "service" consists of rotating the tires and checking the windshield washer fluid.
    14 Mar, 10:36 AM Reply Like
  • JackB125
    , contributor
    Comments (241) | Send Message
     
    Don't forget the step-down gear fluid. It has to be changed every 12 years. :-)
    14 Mar, 11:33 AM Reply Like
  • chickensevil
    , contributor
    Comments (639) | Send Message
     
    They actually do a number of things at every 12k interval. I don't know that they are all necessary, but there is a service sheet floating around on the internet that shows what all they do.

     

    Still have to take care of things like breaks (specifically the fluid - pads shouldn't get much wear), suspension, a couple filters, etc.

     

    But yeah, yearly maintenance is far better than every quarter.
    14 Mar, 02:02 PM Reply Like
  • mrdeezman11@yahoo.com
    , contributor
    Comments (5) | Send Message
     
    No my friend ....its a little more than that....

     

    there are electrical connections etc. to check on...but ...out side of that..

     

    not much else
    14 Mar, 03:56 PM Reply Like
  • joeinslw@gmail.com
    , contributor
    Comments (575) | Send Message
     
    The Tesla Model S has regeneration Brakes, (not breaks) when you take your foot off the accelerator the car slows down and it takes that energy and puts it back into the battery.
    So I don't believe they wear out, maybe every 100 thousand miles they would need to be checked, but the car will stop completely if you don't put your foot on the brake, and at the same time your charging the battery a little, that's why they are called regenerative brakes.
    15 Mar, 05:08 PM Reply Like
  • Captain Pike
    , contributor
    Comments (508) | Send Message
     
    Aren't their stores in fact Dealerships?
    14 Mar, 10:31 AM Reply Like
  • EarlyMorningTrader
    , contributor
    Comments (65) | Send Message
     
    The differences between Tesla showrooms/galleries and auto dealerships include, but are not limited to:

     

    1) There is no inventory of cars to be sold at a Tesla gallery. You cannot walk into a Tesla showroom, buy a car and drive away in it.

     

    2) There is no repair or servicing facility at a Tesla gallery.

     

    3) The Tesla showroom cannot change or determine the price of the car.

     

    4) You cannot "trade in" your old car at a Tesla showroom.

     

    5) Tesla showrooms do not sell cars. In states where it's allowed, you can use their computers to go online and order a car, but in general they are only showrooms that offer prospective customers a chance to look at, sit in, and inspect a new Tesla, compare colors, options, etc.
    14 Mar, 10:50 AM Reply Like
  • David at Imperial Beach
    , contributor
    Comments (3254) | Send Message
     
    No. There's a huge difference between a company owned store and an independent franchise or dealer. The dealer is in business for himself and is an independent business from the manufacturer. He buys the cars from the manufacturer at wholesale and sells them at whatever markup he can extract from the public. He does the same with auto parts. A dealership is actually two businesses under one roof, a car sales operation and a car service operation. It's in a dealer's best interest for cars to be as complex and expensive to service as possible so he can make money off the servicing.

     

    A Tesla store is just a showroom. You can see what a Tesla looks like in person and you can make an appointment for a test drive. They can tell you what your financing options are and what the final price is and what the monthly payment is. You actually go online to get a place on the waiting list and put down your deposit. I don't think they take any deposits in the store, though they are legally allowed to. There is no service center. Servicing is done from a separate facility, often by valet or a service van so that you don't have to bring your car in. Tesla owns both the showroom and the service facility businesses, they are not separate or independent businesses.

     

    A gallery is a showroom in a state where Tesla can't sell cars. You can look at the car as if it were a museum piece, but the people there can't answer your pricing and financing questions. I think you can sign up for a test drive appointment, but it isn't called a test drive, it's called an "experience". If you can't legally sign up for an experience appointment in the store, then you can do it online.

     

    Test drives and experiences don't happen every day. Tesla doesn't have that many demo cars. They hold test drive or experience events at regular intervals in the parking lots of of malls where their stores and galleries are located. You can see the schedule of days and locations online. The demo units have to be brought in just for the event, and after the event they are sent on to other stores and galleries.
    14 Mar, 11:14 AM Reply Like
  • grindle
    , contributor
    Comments (5) | Send Message
     
    The idea that dealers encourage detroit to build cars that need service is ridiculous. My BMW 3 convertible comes with 4 years or 50,000 miles of free service at the dealer. BMW has close to 400 dealerships in the US. All offering test drives of all their cars. trade in and service. I wonder how long the wait will be to dest drive the 500,000 Gen III in 2017. If your windshield breaks or a carbon fiber door is cracked in a collision, who can repair it? At 26,000 cars showrooms and dates for test drives might work but in 2017?
    14 Mar, 12:29 PM Reply Like
  • surferbroadband
    , contributor
    Comments (954) | Send Message
     
    Grindle,

     

    windshield breaks, lots of car shops do that kind of work. Carbon fiber door, lots of auto body shops do that.

     

    So your comment has no validity. Most dealers make the money thru the regularly scheduled oil changes, filter changes and other stuff that electric cars do not have. If you watch the movie, "Who Killed the Electric Car?", then you will see that dealerships are in the cross hairs of Elon Musk.

     

    Not a fun place to be. In the long run Elon is gonna win that battle.
    14 Mar, 12:55 PM Reply Like
  • joeinslw@gmail.com
    , contributor
    Comments (575) | Send Message
     
    No they are owned by Tesla, Dealerships are franchise i.e. owned by different people. In other words dealers are middle men, and a customer can do away with a middle man that wants to increase the real cost to the consumer.
    14 Mar, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • Frank Greenhalgh
    , contributor
    Comments (1272) | Send Message
     
    The windshields are stocked for popular cars. They don't stock for Teslas. I'm sure they can order one from Tesla just waiting time. Give me the name of a shop that does carbon fiber. I think that it is too new and too few to bother with.
    14 Mar, 01:02 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1796) | Send Message
     
    First off, the Model S is aluminum; not carbon fiber.
    While harder to find places that work on aluminum vs steel; there are places around.

     

    As for the windshield. I had my windshield crack on my Tesla Model S. that was one of the easiest things I ever did. Dropped a p85 loaner off, took my car, and it was repaired.

     

    Now here's the rub. Since you brought up carbon fiber; you do know even fewer shops repair that compared to metal. You do know the BMW i3 has quite a significant amount of carbon fiber right?
    14 Mar, 01:10 PM Reply Like
  • Frank Greenhalgh
    , contributor
    Comments (1272) | Send Message
     
    Yes I know the i3 has carbon fiber and one of the cons about it is that you can't hammer it out. From what I read, Musk changed the doors to carbon fiber on the S. It was one of the arguments he had with Eberhard before he left. BMW is totally committed with their Giga carbon factory going up in the state of Washington. The i3 body is formed basically in one piece.
    My wife has a Cadillac ATS. When I went to have a dent repaired the repairman came out with a magnet. He told me if it was iron it would cost $400 if it was aluminum it would cost $1200! So Aluminum also has problems. Fortunately the Caddy was steel.
    14 Mar, 01:32 PM Reply Like
  • Rik1381
    , contributor
    Comments (1420) | Send Message
     
    The Model S doors are aluminum. I saw doors being stamped from sheets of aluminum during my tour of Tesla's factory.
    14 Mar, 01:49 PM Reply Like
  • chickensevil
    , contributor
    Comments (639) | Send Message
     
    For things that the service won't do, there are authorized Tesla body shops that are able to order parts from Tesla and do full body work and repairs. I think part of the cost is that many are not doing the work so they can charge a higher premium for the specialty.
    14 Mar, 02:09 PM Reply Like
  • Cassina Tarsia
    , contributor
    Comments (641) | Send Message
     
    EarlyMorningTrader ... "1) There is no inventory of cars to be sold at a Tesla gallery. You cannot walk into a Tesla showroom, buy a car and drive away in it." Not exactly true ... at least here in California. Here, you can in fact walk into a Tesla showroom, buy a car and drive away in it. I talked with a rep at the University Towne Centre Tesla Store, near San Diego, and I was told just that - that you could literally buy a Model S right off of their showroom floor. I don't know about other states, but that is the way it is here in California.
    14 Mar, 02:13 PM Reply Like
  • Anon iMouse
    , contributor
    Comments (13) | Send Message
     
    It is almost certainly the case that BMW, not the dealer, is paying for the service appointments that are bundled into the price of your new BMW. The dealer likes that even better as there is zero chance you will go anywhere else.

     

    Plus, BMWs aren't made in Detroit. ;^)
    14 Mar, 06:03 PM Reply Like
  • aGordianKnot
    , contributor
    Comments (16) | Send Message
     
    Heh just wait until that warranty runs out. We have a 335i Convertible with ~50k miles on it, suddenly it constantly needs work. BMWs are wonderful cars to drive, but they're definitely not a symbol of reliability.
    14 Mar, 08:03 PM Reply Like
  • Captain Pike
    , contributor
    Comments (508) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the responses, the only one that I was not really aware of was that a "Dealership" HAS to be owned by someone independent of the manufacturer.

     

    That seems to be the crux of the matter. Is that actually the state law/definition? That a dealership has to be owned by an independent middleman.
    14 Mar, 09:41 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1796) | Send Message
     
    So exactly how different would that be if lets say I wanted yo buy a Bugatti in NJ.

     

    So there are no dealers, I would purchase it in another state and have it delivered to NJ.

     

    Really no different. Only difference is that whose making the profit. The people who actually made the car or the middle men.

     

    Now dealers like to point out that they give better protection and better prices.
    Recent behavior says otherwise. They have to make money selling cars, at least some money.
    Also the dealerships knew about the GM problem, but did not replace it proactively, to protect their customers and soak up the costs. Ignition switch issue and some dealers said to not put too many keys on the key ring- not a solution, a band aid which may not work.

     

    Or for a less severe case, Fisker. Fisker went belly up and dealerships bailed on their clients, either refusing to fix the cars or charging the customers massive amounts to fix, despite the fact that the cars were under warranty. Can't really blame the dealer becausr who wants to eat a 10 K bill for replacing a battery, but it just shows they offer no more protection than the OEM.
    14 Mar, 10:31 AM Reply Like
  • Esekla
    , contributor
    Comments (2292) | Send Message
     
    Yes, this was reported before market open.

     

    There's also a (fairly non-sensical) White House petition to overturn the NJ ban:

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    14 Mar, 10:37 AM Reply Like
  • tombland
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    We're still waiting for the White House to respond to that other petition from 6 months ago or so...
    14 Mar, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • Keith_69
    , contributor
    Comments (175) | Send Message
     
    Yeah because if a governor or state doesn't do what you want them to do, lets waste the executive branch's time and ask them to overstep their boundaries and make NJ and other states allow sales of a car. WTH is wrong with Americans. This is a state issue NOT a federal issue. Unhappy write the NJ and NY governors and the state legislators or maybe their state senators but the white house ? And honestly, buy one in a nearby state and drive it home, it does have wheels after all and super charging stations all over the place right ?
    14 Mar, 11:14 AM Reply Like
  • David at Imperial Beach
    , contributor
    Comments (3254) | Send Message
     
    You're linking to your own comment in an unrelated article? Please link to a web page where the White House petition can be found.
    14 Mar, 11:20 AM Reply Like
  • Esekla
    , contributor
    Comments (2292) | Send Message
     
    The comment links to the petition as well as the link to the story that this "breaking" news item documents, almost an hour earlier.
    14 Mar, 11:29 AM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1796) | Send Message
     
    Actually it is a federal issue and falls under interstate commerce clause.

     

    Article 1, section 8, clause 3
    To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and amoung several states, and with the Indian tribes.

     

    Essentially it is a prohibition of trade.
    14 Mar, 11:36 AM Reply Like
  • JackB125
    , contributor
    Comments (241) | Send Message
     
    Click-seeking with rent-seeking?
    14 Mar, 02:51 PM Reply Like
  • Keith_69
    , contributor
    Comments (175) | Send Message
     
    You probably should have read a little more to understand that clause. And it does not prohibit them from selling in the state of NJ or NY, it simply regulates HOW they can be sold. And it is non-discriminatory because it applies to ALL car sales not just Tesla.

     

    But that being said, why is a petition to the executive branch when the clause you state is a congressional clause. I suggest calling your congressman/woman or senators.
    14 Mar, 02:54 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1796) | Send Message
     
    Keith,
    Essentially, the law that that NJ and Texas has currently is that you have to purchase the car from an in -state dealer.

     

    What if there is no in state dealer for the car?

     

    This is the sticking point.

     

    In some states it is perfectly legal for the manufacturer to sell the cars to the consumer. The "sale" and paper work occur in a state where it is legal for the manufacturer to do so.

     

    The car is not illegal to own in the state, the sale of a car in another state (where the paperwork occured) is not illegal. Essentially they are prohibiting the shipment of the car from over state lines. That is what is unconstitional.

     

    Now, had you bought a Odd car from eastern Europe, shipped it over, it passed all emissions and what not that is the same thing. Also I give BMW as the perfect example, Europe some people buy the BMW there (not via a dealer- watch it being built, take it on the Autobon and ship it to the US)- sure they had to pay import taxes, but no one is going to ban or have state police confiscate your BMW because you did not buy it from a NJ dealer.
    14 Mar, 03:20 PM Reply Like
  • Keith_69
    , contributor
    Comments (175) | Send Message
     
    I will have to take a look at the law as it is written, but I find it unlikely it prohibits purchasing a vehicle from another state and transferring it to their state. That would silly, say I lived in D.C. and bought one there and then moved to NJ, I couldn't tag the vehicle there ?

     

    I'll see if I can find the legislation. I am sure this is being over hyped. From the excerpts I read it appears as to vehicles purchased in NJ and then shipped in. I do not believe it prohibits buying in, say delaware and then driving / registering it in NJ.
    16 Mar, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • Chudnoff
    , contributor
    Comments (8) | Send Message
     
    I just (three weeks ago) took possession of a Tesla model S. The entire process of buying and delivery was an absolute pleasure. I have other cars some of which are Mercedes which of course were purchased through the dealer system. I found the Mercedes process to be pleasent and trouble free however it was not the collegial , fun and totally informative process that the Tesla showroom ( in New Jersey) provided. Musk has once again moved the bar up. The dealer protestation is little more than selfrotection. A non commissioned ebullient sales advisor is a pleasure. If you have the time go to This NPR link and listen to less than bright dealers press their point. http://wny.cc/PAsgIX
    14 Mar, 10:52 AM Reply Like
  • AlphaCoils
    , contributor
    Comments (280) | Send Message
     
    Tesla should fight this battle to the bitter end and not give an inch. They will win because the public is on their side. Even if they can't sell a single car in the entire USA! (and there are other markets that could easily sustain Tesla-- Asia, Europe, etc.)

     

    The younger generation is quite comfortable with buying completely online and you can always get a test drive from the local Tesla owners in the community (that's how I bought mine long before Tesla had a presence in my state.)

     

    And as far as service goes, there is nothing to stop them opening service centers everywhere; (as they are) that is independent of the sales issue.
    14 Mar, 11:05 AM Reply Like
  • Patent News
    , contributor
    Comments (1312) | Send Message
     
    Tesla cars need more service, they need a dealership model. The regulations make sense to protect consumers.
    14 Mar, 11:10 AM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1796) | Send Message
     
    And what service exactly does a Tesla car need?

     

    Tire rotation? Done at any tire shop

     

    Windshield washer fluid- if you are driving and don't know how to add in that- perhaps you should not be driving

     

    Brakes? - regen last longer than regular brakes

     

    Cabin Air filters- again, a part anyone with any remotely mechanic experience ought to be able to do.

     

    Computer updates handled over the air- no need to plug a USB stick in.

     

    No oil changes, no transmission flushes.

     

    How on earth will it need more maintenance?
    14 Mar, 11:21 AM Reply Like
  • Gaius Marius
    , contributor
    Comments (8) | Send Message
     
    Mandating that useless middle man facilitate the sale of a car (and in the process, uneccessarily drive up the cost of the car by thousands), is not a consumer protection. If these cars need as much service as you think they do (they actually don't - Dan Fichana hit that one on the nose), private service stations will fill that demand.
    14 Mar, 12:52 PM Reply Like
  • surferbroadband
    , contributor
    Comments (954) | Send Message
     
    Patent News, I can protect myself. I do not want the government "protecting me". If I am an idiot then it is my responsibility to buy a good product or a bad product.

     

    We do not need a nanny state mentality. Hi, I am an idiot, help me make good decisions. And the government, getting campaign donations from crooked businessmen, will tell you to get something that is good for the crooked businessmen.

     

    No government involvement, then the free marketplace drives out bad business. Old economics principle, good money drives out bad money. Good people drive out bad people.
    14 Mar, 01:04 PM Reply Like
  • RussellL
    , contributor
    Comments (288) | Send Message
     
    "Tesla cars need more service, they need a dealership model. The regulations make sense to protect consumers."

     

    You should change your name to Patent Liar.

     

    Tesla's have far fewer parts than a typical car with a gas engine.
    No oil changes, fuel pumps, water pumps, spark plugs, timing belts, fan belts, coolant, radiator, radiator hoses, gaskets, rings, pushrods, rockers, fuel injectors, transmission, u-joints, exhaust manifolds, exhaust pipes, mufflers, muffler hangers, catalytic converter, Ox sensor,....

     

    Fewer parts = less chance of repairs and breakdowns.
    14 Mar, 06:37 PM Reply Like
  • 123man
    , contributor
    Comments (1032) | Send Message
     
    PN - do you own one? - if not what sense is there to your comment?
    18 Mar, 10:06 AM Reply Like
  • eager1
    , contributor
    Comments (111) | Send Message
     
    Why are there no civil liberties groups during the states for restraint of trade?
    14 Mar, 11:12 AM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1228) | Send Message
     
    The EV cars are over hyped. Approx 50% of the world's electricity is made from coal which is the worst pollutant on the planet. New cars arriving soon that will not use electricity. Shorted TSLA at $260. It is trading at approx. 135x forward earnings compared to GM and F at 10x real earnings. Let's get real.
    14 Mar, 11:20 AM Reply Like
  • mxkieran
    , contributor
    Comments (18) | Send Message
     
    Even though electric plants are not the cleanest, delivery over the grid and economies of scale make it far more efficient (greener) than filling your gas tank. But yes, 135x earnings may be a bit rich.
    14 Mar, 11:38 AM Reply Like
  • RussellL
    , contributor
    Comments (288) | Send Message
     
    "Approx 50% of the world's electricity is made from coal which is the worst pollutant on the planet."

     

    Utilities are building more and more renewable sources every month.
    Solar is one of them and will grow like gang busters in 2014.
    14 Mar, 06:49 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1796) | Send Message
     
    Again, well technically 40% is coal, but besides the point.

     

    Citing one statistic does not tell you anything about emissions or grid. But hey, lets assume 50% coal, 25% natural gas, 20% nuclear and 5 % other (hydro, wind solar, geo thermal, etc). I'm just throwing out numbers here, so they could be off by a few percentages.

     

    Let us also assume that the person is plugged in 24/7 and can not utilize nighttime baseload power to its full extent

     

    Coal- 1 kg per kwhr @ 50% = 500 grams per kwhr
    NG- 500 grams per kwhr @ 25 %= 125 grams per kwhr
    Other negligble

     

    So that is 625 grams per kwhr or 1.375 lbs per kwhr

     

    So now, the Tesla is rated at 0.32 kwhr per mile- 0.440 lbs CO2 per mile

     

    Now how does it's competition weigh in?
    Well- the Porsche Panamera gets 19-20 mpg; so that is roughly 1 lb CO2 per miles, or double what a Tesla Model S has.

     

    Always like for like.

     

    Now that is without accounting for actual behavior such as baseload nighttime charging and removing poverty areas that can not afford Tesla type vehicles.
    14 Mar, 08:14 PM Reply Like
  • aGordianKnot
    , contributor
    Comments (16) | Send Message
     
    This is such a dumb, tired horse to keep trotting out, I can't wait until the news that it's actually false gets to everyone.

     

    Well/mine to wheel, the Tesla is no worse even on 100% coal-fired electricity than the average gasoline car. This is largely because large electric generators are much more efficient than internal combustion engines. And like you say, it's usually not 100% coal.

     

    And since it decouples the generation from the use, we'll be able to substitute in cleaner forms of electricity generation at will, and in different mixes in different areas as appropriate - hydro in WA, solar near deserts, nat gas and nuclear everywhere, fusion when it becomes available.

     

    No comment about the valuation, it's pricing in some pretty massive success.
    14 Mar, 08:14 PM Reply Like
  • ioconnor
    , contributor
    Comments (5) | Send Message
     
    Crony Capitalism is like Cancer.
    14 Mar, 11:23 AM Reply Like
  • Vico Confino
    , contributor
    Comments (180) | Send Message
     
    Vico Confino Tesla 85 owner since 10/21/2012

     

    If only we could ban corrupt, greedy, self serving politicians from taking office.
    Left New York 40 years ago for sunny Florida.
    Every day is just another day in paradise.
    Of course we have had many incompetent and disgraced politicians leave home to start again in Florida. A leopard doesn't change it's spots.
    "Citizens who fail to participate in the politics of their country are doomed
    to be governed by their inferiors". Plato
    When the new New York mayor installs all his cronies in office there won't be any auto dealerships left to sell a Tesla.
    The people will eventually decide where Tesla can sell their cars of the future.
    I hold the trump card. At 81 I will be long gone by the time this wonderful country is turned into a cesspool.
    Vico Confino
    Please do not threaten me.....you are too late.
    14 Mar, 11:23 AM Reply Like
  • joeinslw@gmail.com
    , contributor
    Comments (575) | Send Message
     
    I left the NY cesspool over 30 years ago for Florida, but it still turns my stomach to read of such corruption anywhere especially when you read that car dealers throughout the US are using and thinking how wonderful the FREE MARKET is when it serves them, (the internet) but when it serves someone else, they don't like it and they are suing to stop a way of promoting their business and using everyday.

     

    MAKES ME SICK !
    14 Mar, 01:07 PM Reply Like
  • surferbroadband
    , contributor
    Comments (954) | Send Message
     
    Vic, we love you.
    14 Mar, 01:29 PM Reply Like
  • rgsoleary
    , contributor
    Comment (1) | Send Message
     
    Yes, I agree it is an unwarranted restraint of trades. it sounds like the dealers just want their piece of the action. This type of law just got signed in NJ and already happened in 2 other states. It's not the first time that powerful greedy people have tried to confound the efforts of someone, or something, named "Tesla".
    14 Mar, 11:23 AM Reply Like
  • WorksWithDough
    , contributor
    Comments (3) | Send Message
     
    Conventional Dealers are threatened by Tesla. I love it. It's an endorsement by the competition that Tesla has arrived. I ordered my X online and will pick it up in CA so I can drive cross country. Now I want make a stop in every state that bans Tesla so I visit the offices of those responsible for this lame attempt to stifle competition and the good old American
    innovation. I'll bet they want a ride!
    14 Mar, 11:24 AM Reply Like
  • ekkho65
    , contributor
    Comment (1) | Send Message
     
    Auto dealers who fear competition and the free market.
    14 Mar, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • boyd@simpsonorg.com
    , contributor
    Comments (6) | Send Message
     
    All of this attempt to restrict Tesla distribution is , of course, only about money for the existing car dealers. The fact that they fear Tesla so much is a clear indication of how disruptive Tesla is as a company. The dealers are dinosaurs sinking in the muck.
    14 Mar, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • WorksWithDough
    , contributor
    Comments (3) | Send Message
     
    Conventional Dealers are threatened by Tesla. I love it. It's an endorsement by the competition that Tesla has arrived. I ordered my X online and will pick it up in CA so I can drive cross country to Nicola Tesla's Laboratory on Long Island. Now I want make a stop in every state that bans Tesla so I visit the offices of those responsible for this lame attempt to stifle competition and the good old American
    innovation. I'll bet they want a ride!
    14 Mar, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • Tjsage
    , contributor
    Comments (3) | Send Message
     
    An effort in what built America in freedom of trade and freedom of choice is going the route of communism. The government will choose FOR YOU and we always know what is best, as long as we get paid and can decide who also gets your money. No offense meant but demcrats=comunists in my book. The dealers just want to make cash from all our pockets.
    14 Mar, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • mxkieran
    , contributor
    Comments (18) | Send Message
     
    How could anyone be offended by "demcrats=comunists"? I bet most of the dealership owners vote GOP, and funny how the states that currently ban Tesla sales all have republican governors.
    14 Mar, 11:47 AM Reply Like
  • redsstock
    , contributor
    Comments (256) | Send Message
     
    i think tesla models s will be ban for sale in ny without dealership and service centers...good for consumer....One thing i notice about Tesla is it is like blackberry with lots of momo posters saying positive things no matter how ugly the situation is...i expect increase inventory of unsold tesla model s cause lowering its prize will not work to increase sale just like what they are doing in EUrope and china, i was thinking are these unsold cars will be sitting in the warehouse somewhere or being leased, as per my readings tesla introduce leasing its suppose to be indemand tesla models s as early as 2nd qtr 2013....If model s is indeed the demand is so high and manufacturing cant meet the demand WHY LEASE THEM ??? the more i dig deep into this the more i see reason to short...The only reason that i see this stock going up as per my research is because of SUPER duper high short position WHICH i believe is only temporary...i believe economic downturn not only in our country and worldwide will make it hard for those who artificially poping up TESLa stock to hold this at this level....
    14 Mar, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • chickensevil
    , contributor
    Comments (639) | Send Message
     
    From your comments you appear to be new to Tesla, so I will try to assist and correct some of the things you seem to have gotten a bit mixed up (You are still welcome to short the stock, I would just prefer you had all the information).

     

    Banning the sale through their stores is not really "good" for the consumer. The consumer is just going to buy it online, and now they have to go through a couple extra hoops to get the car delivered to them and registered. This is a huge inconvenience to the consumer, not a "benefit". They also put service centers near enough to their major population to be able to have them get serviced. They have a valet service which will pick up your car and drop off a loaner while they take it over to the service center and you never have to be inconvenienced to get go out of your way. Alternatively you can have the ranger service come to you and they will do whatever needs to be done on the spot. I am not really sure where you are getting this "inferior" dealership and service from, perhaps you could clarify?

     

    There is no "inventory" all cars are made to order. The closest thing they have to "inventory" cars, are either A: old loaner cars which are sold at a discount. B: Old store cars, also sold at a discount. C: cars which were ordered, built, and then the buyer dropped out of the sale (forfeiting his deposit.) These "inventory" cars, when they do hit the market are bought up very quickly, since it avoids the wait times and you actually get a discount off the original sale price (as opposed to a mark up that you would get from a dealership).

     

    Leasing: This is just what Tesla calls it. You are actually still buying the car. You are even getting a loan for the full value (or minus whatever down payment you make). It is more accurately described as a "Buy back guarantee" as opposed to a lease. The car is yours and you retain the OPTION to sell it back between 36 and 39 months for a fixed price. Many people are uncertain about the resale value of the car, which is why they wanted a lease in the first place. This places that burden on Tesla instead of the customer. I think the cars will retain much more than ~45% of their value after 3 years so not many cars are going to be sold back in this fashion, and those that are, will easily be sold by Tesla for a profit.

     

    So far, deposits have continually gone up, despite them having increased their number of manufactured cars each quarter. So, demand is at least higher than what we are seeing delivered right now. ~6900 per Q = ~27600 demand minimum. We won't know real demand until they clear out their production issues.

     

    Hope this helps clear things up. Please do more research before you initiate a short or long position because there is a lot more to this company than reading a couple articles.
    14 Mar, 02:34 PM Reply Like
  • redsstock
    , contributor
    Comments (256) | Send Message
     
    nice info, but the tesla way i am pretty sure about this will only work by selling exotic cars like low volume, this will not work on a massive scale, look at what amazon, ebay they are doing this now but lots of customer are not happy Upto now they are just a disruptor but profit wise they are not making that much money...many times i bought products online that are defective and find it hard to return them. About the lease, and base on what you are saying this looks like tesla is adding sweetener to increase the sale, why do this promo if model s demand is huge that production can't meet the demand. i remember in early 2000's theres a huge demand for honda odyssey if you want one you have to pay above selling price just to get one without any promo, the dealers are not offering to lease them because they have no inventory. If tesla offer model s on a lease basis why do that for a car that is in high demand, they start doing this 2nd qtr 2013 that means demand is not really that great huh, how about expanding overseas why do that and burn more cash, I remember the japanese saying that before you expand overseas make sure that you are profitable and doing good in the domestic market first, tesla is not selling that much car here why go overseas if the demand is really good here...i am shorting tesla because something is not in sync...
    14 Mar, 06:03 PM Reply Like
  • WorksWithDough
    , contributor
    Comments (3) | Send Message
     
    This just proves that Tesla is a real threat to the conventional automotive industry. Corrupt Politicians will side with the auto dealers. Those who really want to see the USA lead the worldwide economy in manufacturing, productivity, and innovation will allow the free market system to prosper. I'm picking up my model X in CA and then driving it cross country to Nicola Tesla's Lab on Long Island. Along the way, I'd love to stop in every state capital that bans Tesla and take those responsible for a ride.
    14 Mar, 11:28 AM Reply Like
  • stootch
    , contributor
    Comments (7) | Send Message
     
    "... tesla is a real threat to the conventional automotive industry."

     

    threats to establishments are dealt with. that's how establishments are established
    14 Mar, 01:00 PM Reply Like
  • marsfly1981
    , contributor
    Comment (1) | Send Message
     
    Car dealers are just middle man for car sell. Why it doesn't allow customers to buy a car just like a computer??
    14 Mar, 11:28 AM Reply Like
  • Granters
    , contributor
    Comments (251) | Send Message
     
    Supply and Demand will find a way to meet; one way or another. Long TSLA.
    14 Mar, 11:30 AM Reply Like
  • thesullster
    , contributor
    Comments (15) | Send Message
     
    This carmaker is a steal. They're doing everything right. These silly obstacles, auto dealerships, do not have the fundamentals to stick around for the next decade.

     

    Musk and the Tesla team will persevere. Politicians will eventually have to get behind "go-green" agendas to stay in office. What's not to like? :)
    14 Mar, 11:39 AM Reply Like
  • Gaius Marius
    , contributor
    Comments (8) | Send Message
     
    Yet another sign that Tesla is about to significantly disrupt this entire industry.
    14 Mar, 12:39 PM Reply Like
  • stootch
    , contributor
    Comments (7) | Send Message
     
    the dealer is capitalism incarnate; he wrings from the unsold product its final thirst-quenching drops of oh-so-tasty profit. undercoating anyone?
    14 Mar, 01:00 PM Reply Like
  • zulo1715
    , contributor
    Comments (3) | Send Message
     
    " ... with auto dealers urging state legislators to issue rules banning the practice."
    Since when "paying" means "urging"?!!
    14 Mar, 01:00 PM Reply Like
  • TikiManProd
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    After seeing the MOST news articles EVER written about Tesla, I am now starting to change my mind on this BS NJ law, and here is why…

     

    NJ is small potatoes, however, the press Tesla is getting based on this boneheaded move by desperate auto-dealers in NJ is priceless to Tesla (we’re talking ten-billion-dollars in free positive advertising).
    On the flip-side, it’s also like a FREE multi-billion-dollar smear campaign against Gov Christy, and the car-dealer business model.

     

    I have a lot of friends from all sides of the political fence, and 99% of them don’t own a Tesla, much less can afford one at this point. However, it’s the first time EVER I have seen so many of my friends, and their friends, etc re-posting news about this BS law in NJ! Never mind, every single one is livid at Gov Christy and the car-dealers!

     

    The fact is; the NJ car-dealer association, and Gov Christy have literally shot themselves in the foot, and helped advertise Tesla more they will ever comprehend in their lifetimes.
    14 Mar, 01:44 PM Reply Like
  • ecochuck
    , contributor
    Comments (8) | Send Message
     
    Tesla has more people wanting to buy their cars than they can make them. So if states make it harder for people to buy them, then people in the U.S., Europe and China can get their cars quicker. So it does not hurt Tesla.
    14 Mar, 01:50 PM Reply Like
  • Pairs Perfect
    , contributor
    Comments (64) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/1fFNU8p

     

    Musk puts things in perspective
    14 Mar, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • Rik1381
    , contributor
    Comments (1420) | Send Message
     
    Excellent!
    14 Mar, 03:18 PM Reply Like
  • hughesrd
    , contributor
    Comments (116) | Send Message
     
    More and more, it just seems Musk is just a nice guy, but very smart. How many more industrialists are just like that. Cf an article in Harvard Business review, cerca 1980, by Stobough and Yergin, "Managing our way to decline." A study of business leaders here in comparison to Europe and Asia. Here the backgrounds are in sales and accounting (at least then). Elsewhere backgrounds in engineering or production.

     

    Woops, got the authors wrong. http://bit.ly/Oqz8Yc

     

    Maybe I'd better read it. Haven't for over 34 years!
    14 Mar, 03:43 PM Reply Like
  • videomagik
    , contributor
    Comments (33) | Send Message
     
    Reminds one of the documentary.."Who killed the electric car?" There is no doubt that this is what is happening to Tesla. There is panic among the "Status Quo" that their graft and corrupt system is under attack by the direct to consumer marketing, which Tesla has initiated. It will be interesting to see how the courts deal with this as we already know that the legislative bodies are already bought and paid for by big car companies. This is a kind of replay of the Netflix/Comcast extortion, which was denied (politically) by Netflix. When someone has their hands around your throat, and throttling you, it's best to not antagonize.

     

    Again we see the current antiquated system being used to stifle rather then encourage innovative thinking. The good news is when you polarize you advertise. And all this is only good for Tesla Motors to bring their product to the attention of those who are unaware of this company and it's forward visionary thinking. This will not disrupt Teslas greater vision, it will only enhance it. Are we a free market capitalist system or not is at play here. My monies on Tesla! Stay long.
    14 Mar, 03:45 PM Reply Like
  • Pairs Perfect
    , contributor
    Comments (64) | Send Message
     
    Or as Spock would have said, " Stay long and prosper! "
    14 Mar, 04:09 PM Reply Like
  • a alto
    , contributor
    Comments (126) | Send Message
     
    The Amish sell direct , why can 't Tesla ?
    14 Mar, 08:24 PM Reply Like
  • a alto
    , contributor
    Comments (126) | Send Message
     
    The Amish sell direct , why can 't Tesla ?
    14 Mar, 08:24 PM Reply Like
  • Brockmann
    , contributor
    Comments (3) | Send Message
     
    Wow, the Tesla car has to be a big hit to get laws to prevent/hinder its sales. He (Elon Musk) must be competing with Government Motors (and there current safety flaws). Government should be doing what is needed to create jobs, jobs, jobs and protect us as a nation. The more difficult government makes it to buy a Tesla electric car-the more unique it becomes and the more desirable.

     

    Tesla may outlast the US of A at this rate with this type of ridiculous nonsense. JOBS, JOBS, JOBS.
    15 Mar, 02:09 AM Reply Like
  • Michael Bryant
    , contributor
    Comments (5363) | Send Message
     
    The domino effect. First Texas. Then Arizona. Then New Jersey. Now New York.
    15 Mar, 12:42 PM Reply Like
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