Seeking Alpha

No "common vision" on Ukraine between U.S. and Russia, says Lavrov

  • "This is a case that can’t be considered in isolation from history," says Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov after wrapping up a long meeting with Sec. of State John Kerry. "Everybody knows what Crimea means for Russia, and it is more than what the Comoros means for France, or the Falklands for Great Britain."
  • Russian has a legal right to annex Crimea, he says, but has no plans to send forces into Eastern Ukraine. His country, he says, will respect the results of Sunday's Crimean referendum on whether to join Russia.
  • Stocks are taking the news in stride, the S&P 500 (SPY) about flat on the session.
  • ETFs: SPY, SH, SSO, SDS, IVV, VOO, SPXU, UPRO, RSP, RWL, EPS, BXUB, TRND, SFLA, BXUC, BXDB
From other sites
Comments (61)
  • bull_market_somewhere
    , contributor
    Comments (115) | Send Message
     
    this could get ugly relatively quickly. the russians, in their mind, are taking back what was and is theirs. we are simply a third party with no emotional ties to the region. the russians are all in, and i somehow doubt we would be as well.
    14 Mar, 12:15 PM Reply Like
  • sawtooth
    , contributor
    Comments (9) | Send Message
     
    Kind of like what we, the "Europeans" took from the Mexicans & Indians in the South West and California in the United States. So nothing is new.
    14 Mar, 07:23 PM Reply Like
  • sawtooth
    , contributor
    Comments (9) | Send Message
     
    NO way!
    14 Mar, 07:25 PM Reply Like
  • Land of Milk and Honey
    , contributor
    Comments (4158) | Send Message
     
    sawtooth

     

    Not remotely like what you describe. History in that region is unique and complex. Overlaying something else very simply -- doesn't do much for solving real problems where they exist in the world.
    14 Mar, 09:20 PM Reply Like
  • Tricky
    , contributor
    Comments (1583) | Send Message
     
    You're right, it is different. The Russians actually have legitimate claims to Crimea whereas the Europeans' wipeout of the Native Americans had no justifications whatsoever.
    14 Mar, 09:39 PM Reply Like
  • Land of Milk and Honey
    , contributor
    Comments (4158) | Send Message
     
    Tricky

     

    Why is this turned into American bashing? That's called bias.

     

    .
    The American history isn't completely black and white either. And -importantly- you're comparing morality of conquest in 1400-1800's with current world and all we've learned about respecting others. Well supposedly learned... did you pause long enough to even consider things as both complex, each unique, and time related?

     

    .
    In 1400-1800's under Czar, Russia was a bastion of horrors to live with. Not valid to compare to current situation either.

     

    .
    Russians don't have claim to Crimea. Crimeans do. And only they do. There is no right to annex land because it used to belong to you, or you've decided it's people want it.
    14 Mar, 09:59 PM Reply Like
  • Tricky
    , contributor
    Comments (1583) | Send Message
     
    Land

     

    It's not that I'm bashing the US, I am merely pointing out that all political boundaries are the results of violence, geography and realpolitik. Everybody who is able to engages in it.

     

    I agree that people should take the time to learn about the history of a place before making simplistic comments. I commend you for trying to do so. So to that end, the first notion of "Russia" was rooted in Kiev. Crimea has been a part of Russia for most of its modern history. Putin's staged theatrics aside, I would think that Crimea would vote to become part of Russia in a fair election (no, I have no illusions about how this particular referendum is going down). And the realpolitik of the situation is that there is simply no way that Russia will allow "the West" to in any way shape or form control the only warm water naval base they have. We cannot win this situation over the long haul, it's too important to Russia and they will go to the mat over it.

     

    And no, I don't care about the treaty of 1994. Treaties get ripped up and violated all the time (see "conquest of the American west", which I why I brought that up). Also, the Clinton Administration didn't seem to have any qualms about breaking up a country during the Dayton process.

     

    We have to pick our battles and this shouldn't be one. Now, Poland and Baltic States, totally different story.

     

    Cheers.
    14 Mar, 11:23 PM Reply Like
  • Land of Milk and Honey
    , contributor
    Comments (4158) | Send Message
     
    Tricky

     

    You went from simplistic and bashing sounding -- to thought out and details... and to that I'll say.... I agree with, well probably practically everything you said.

     

    >"(no, I have no illusions about how this particular referendum is going down)"
    LOL.

     

    >"they will go to the mat over it"
    Yep. And bringing it back to investing... that's why I don't think this will at all blow up into a big thing. US & EU don't have reason to the map over this. So I'm hoping it brings the market down for a few more days, at least one more. Even better if it triggers that correction finally, that's so badly needed. (And I have cash waiting for.)

     

    >" Now, Poland and Baltic States, totally different story."
    Yep. I doubt Putin will go for them. He's looking for a better power base, but he's not outright nuts. The expansionist type "dictators" that go for anything possible, tend to be.
    14 Mar, 11:48 PM Reply Like
  • Tricky
    , contributor
    Comments (1583) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the exchange. Your last paragraph is especially spot on. The analogy to Hitler ("this is Sudetenland 2.0") that others are using is not accurate. And it's dangerous because that analogy has the inevitable conclusion that "we need to step in militarily now because he'll keep on going until he takes over the whole world".

     

    No, he won't. He even left (most of) Georgia after he crushed Saakhashvili's political career for making noises about joining NATO. Ukraine *is* a special situation, especially Crimea. Most Americans don't understand how intertwined their history is.
    15 Mar, 12:05 AM Reply Like
  • Land of Milk and Honey
    , contributor
    Comments (4158) | Send Message
     
    Tricky

     

    "how intertwined their history is"
    Yep, I grew up thinking Moscow, St. Petersburg & Kiev were the big cities in western Russia (from someone who's been all through there). Not USSR, but Russia from back during WWII days. Took me a while to figure out Kiev wasn't Russian.
    15 Mar, 12:10 AM Reply Like
  • Land of Milk and Honey
    , contributor
    Comments (4158) | Send Message
     
    Oh yes, and thank you for the exchange too!
    16 Mar, 03:10 AM Reply Like
  • PalmDesertRat
    , contributor
    Comments (2828) | Send Message
     
    The vast majority of people living in the Crimea are Russian,and they apparently want to re-join Russia.

     

    Whatever happened to the right of self-determination?
    14 Mar, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • bull_market_somewhere
    , contributor
    Comments (115) | Send Message
     
    american foreign policy: we don't recognize russian tactics, they must follow the course of democracy. oh, they're going to vote to join russia? well, that violates the ukranian constitution, so no dice.
    14 Mar, 12:20 PM Reply Like
  • BudH
    , contributor
    Comments (323) | Send Message
     
    Ask the Confederate States of America. It's pretty much settled policy around the globe that a small region cannot vote itself over to a neighboring country. Not unless the neighboring country is militarily dominant and aggressive. If popular vote set boundaries my county would likely vote to leave Washington State and join Oregon.
    14 Mar, 12:29 PM Reply Like
  • omarbradley
    , contributor
    Comments (966) | Send Message
     
    they weren't offered the choice of remaining as part of Ukraine. There are also very large minorities (tatars are but one actually) and probably many Russians who do not relish being under the Russian boot.

     

    One should be clear: this is Putin's war...not the West's, not Crimea's. Lavrov is saying his last words before he is deposed.

     

    What happens next is quite uncertain...as the West has a history that is far more accurate to events...and one the world find's far more amenable to "population centers"...namely respect for existing borders, collective self defense in the face of naked aggression, the right to retain and in fact effect offensive military respond to "madmen with nukes."

     

    One can stake claim to history...which has not been done in this case i might add...but one must respect the verdict of 70 years of peace too...and who is the one who is breaking that peace.

     

    Putin and his coterie are the problem. Russia is too big for him and he knows it.
    14 Mar, 12:34 PM Reply Like
  • Charliehbryan
    , contributor
    Comments (115) | Send Message
     
    Tell that to the Croatians (who departed Yugoslavia) or the Kosovars (who departed Serbia).

     

    Your historical analogy to the Confederate States of America is a failure, because Crimea never voted to join Ukraine but was administratively transferred to it by Kruschev in 1954.
    14 Mar, 01:05 PM Reply Like
  • PalmDesertRat
    , contributor
    Comments (2828) | Send Message
     
    but in a 1991 referendum Crimea voted to stay with Ukraine and become independent of Russia.

     

    Now they seem to be changing their minds. free choice.
    14 Mar, 01:08 PM Reply Like
  • labas112
    , contributor
    Comments (321) | Send Message
     
    I agree....the original boundaries that were drawn up were wrong. I feel the only reason Ukraine is holding on is because of all the economic power on the eastern side of their country. The east is carrying all the weight.
    14 Mar, 01:10 PM Reply Like
  • mmokrzy1
    , contributor
    Comments (5) | Send Message
     
    yeah, that Washington state liquor tax is brutal ;)
    15 Mar, 11:34 AM Reply Like
  • alf2011
    , contributor
    Comments (466) | Send Message
     
    "Whatever happened to the right of self-determination?"

     

    The right of people to vote to get annexed undertaken under the benevolent but watchful eyes of heavily armed masked men who have invaded from an 'undisclosed' country?

     

    Is this what we should be willing to stand up for?
    15 Mar, 11:58 AM Reply Like
  • hyperion15
    , contributor
    Comments (67) | Send Message
     
    I'm very worried about this situation. I'm sure very few people thought the assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand in 1914 would lead to a World War that would kill millions of people. We should be trying to de-escalate the situation.
    14 Mar, 12:22 PM Reply Like
  • labas112
    , contributor
    Comments (321) | Send Message
     
    America is on a shoot first, ask questions later policy. They didn't get their Syria fight, now they will try to get it with Ukraine.
    14 Mar, 12:26 PM Reply Like
  • 11146471
    , contributor
    Comments (759) | Send Message
     
    Agreed!

     

    Crimea's status doesn't worth initiating WWIII.

     

    USA should step back on this one. The cost is too big, while the benefit is nil.

     

    Capitalism need cooperation, not confrontation. USA, EU and Russia must cooperate for the economic salvation of crippling Ukraine.
    14 Mar, 12:34 PM Reply Like
  • Editor33
    , contributor
    Comment (1) | Send Message
     
    labas112 - Handle is actually "Baghdad Bob" as labas is actually the same individual who proclaimed to the TV cameras "There are no infidels in Baghdad" while those cameras showed U.S. troops advancing immediately behind him.

     

    There labas, I fixed the typo in your handle for you - it's "Baghdad Bob."
    14 Mar, 01:06 PM Reply Like
  • labas112
    , contributor
    Comments (321) | Send Message
     
    Not sure how to take that, but thank you. LOL
    14 Mar, 01:17 PM Reply Like
  • Charliehbryan
    , contributor
    Comments (115) | Send Message
     
    It's called "offering each side a way to save face." In my way, the most sensible way to accomplish this is through a partition, with Russia getting Crimea and eastern and southern Ukraine and the EU\US getting western Ukraine (west of Kiev). If that means the fascist and neo-Nazi thugs of Svoboda and Right Sector are thrown under the bus, so be it.
    14 Mar, 03:10 PM Reply Like
  • BudH
    , contributor
    Comments (323) | Send Message
     
    Russia is going to take Crimea based on this referendum. If they stop there, leaving eastern Ukraine alone, it will be a good thing.
    14 Mar, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • 11146471
    , contributor
    Comments (759) | Send Message
     
    That's what they have officially stated (Lavrov).

     

    They said they don't want to invade Ukrainian mainland.
    14 Mar, 12:40 PM Reply Like
  • User 353732
    , contributor
    Comments (4889) | Send Message
     
    Modern Ukraine is as artificial an entity as were Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia or are many current nations in Africa and the Middle East: devoid of an ethnic, historical, cultural or geographic basis. Violence draws political boundaries and violence redraws them.
    The Crimea and large portions of Eastern Ukraine are more naturally Russian than Ukrainian.
    Ethnicity is once again emerging as very potent global force and it will redraw many political boundaries.
    Globally economics is leading to financial integration while ethnicity is leading to political fragmentation.

     

    The loyalties of ordinary people today are both to some entity smaller or much larger than the political configuration they inhabit. Geography does make a Nation: shared values, shared memories, shared traditions and shared ancestries do.
    14 Mar, 12:40 PM Reply Like
  • 11146471
    , contributor
    Comments (759) | Send Message
     
    Ukrainians and Russians are the same race: Russian

     

    Kiev is considered the mother of all Russian cities. The first ever Russian state was the medieval Principality of Kiev.

     

    http://bit.ly/1cZru2B

     

    They share the same culture and most importantly the same religion : Orthodox Christians, a legacy from their neighbouring Byzantine Greek Empire.

     

    It's highly improbable that they will pose any real resistance to their Russian relatives. US secretary of state should balance all these facts and de-escalate the situation as all these happen in Russia's backyard.
    14 Mar, 02:29 PM Reply Like
  • mobyss
    , contributor
    Comments (2012) | Send Message
     
    Russian is now a "race"?

     

    I'd go "ethnicity" or "nationality", but I think they are all from the Caucasian race.
    14 Mar, 04:29 PM Reply Like
  • Tack
    , contributor
    Comments (13423) | Send Message
     
    Maybe, all our southern border states will soon be drawing up their own plebiscites, so they can vote to return to their own cultural heritage.
    14 Mar, 05:12 PM Reply Like
  • Clayton Rulli
    , contributor
    Comments (2623) | Send Message
     
    How is (RSX) not tagged?
    14 Mar, 12:44 PM Reply Like
  • Mattster
    , contributor
    Comments (162) | Send Message
     
    Exactly 100 years ago a Russian king started a war in that part of the world and 3 years later he'd be dead and his monarchy overthrown. We will soon see how long the Russian people are willing to put up with this madness.
    14 Mar, 12:51 PM Reply Like
  • John Polomny
    , contributor
    Comments (498) | Send Message
     
    Putin's approval ratings are at all time highs. To Russians this is not madness.
    14 Mar, 03:20 PM Reply Like
  • Krakin
    , contributor
    Comments (82) | Send Message
     
    What does the world expect Pooten to do ....he can't buy another country like the west does,so he uses his military to takeover a country he will eventually loose.Pitty east/west can't play nice and contribute to getting themselves out of their national debt and Quit ruining our lives.what a complete waste of good resources.
    14 Mar, 01:20 PM Reply Like
  • citracyde
    , contributor
    Comments (53) | Send Message
     
    Let's call it what it really is. Putin is solving for his rent payment on a warm water naval base, grabbing an area with potential hydro-carbon-based natural resources, re-building the glory economic of the USSR, and sticking up a finger to the west.

     

    Anyone trying to draw comparisons to the American Civil War is off base - there is not an economic policy (use of slavery) central to the Ukrainian uprising. Instead anyone who actually is a Ukrainian or knows a Ukrainian understands that this is a popular uprising where the people are fed up with rigged elections ordered up by the rich and the Kremlin. There is no crazy revolution here. They gathered in the streets first, but were met with resistance, so then they showed up with home made weapons (hardly a match for guns) and refused to leave until the President stepped down. They waiting through a bitterly cold winter all night and day in the streets for this cause - pretty dedicated people (not like occupy wallstreet). They are not Nazi's or fascist, but they would rather freeze or die for their cause than continue to be taken advantage of by that administration. Many are jobless because of the lack of an economy or the state approved monopolies. They could care less about russian-speaking Ukrainians who live outside of Kiev - so no danger is really present (they are just another ethnic group to gripe about - same is true in every country in the world).

     

    The fear most Ukrainians have is that this feels so much like the Sudetenland 2.0
    where a dictator (again let's call him what he is, no politician is that popular) begins by invading an ethnically similar area with the idea it must protect people who speak the same language. Sorry to those who want to bash the US for various middle east exploits, but no incursion ever was solely grounded on protecting English speaking expatriates. It's pretty much the dumbest excuse one could have for invading a country. Another way this is different than Iraq, Afganistan, and Syria is that the US has never made an attempt to annex or colonize these regions. Each was returned to the people after various unstable governments were removed.

     

    This really is Sudetenland 2.0 and for some reason Europes leaders are again opening the door to a casual advancing annexation campaign. It's easy for Putin to see a path all the way to Poland - no one wants a nuclear war, no one in the EU/US wants to pay for even a military campaign to simply "hold the line", and Putin has to do something to keep the rabble in his country at bay while his economy grows at 1% - invading neighbors boosts nationalistic moral. But where would it stop? Poland? Romainia? Slovakia?

     

    Sanctions are ineffective unless broadly deployed. Make Russia an OFAC country like North Korea, Cuba, and Northern Sudan today. That might actually get their attention and stop the advance. But, then again that might destabilize Russia and cause that nation's underground political parties to create problems for Putin and then things in the region might really spiral out of control. No one wants to see the russian mafia with control of a bunch of nukes.
    14 Mar, 02:49 PM Reply Like
  • Tricky
    , contributor
    Comments (1583) | Send Message
     
    Oh cool, we're doing this topic again. LOL
    14 Mar, 08:42 PM Reply Like
  • JANFA
    , contributor
    Comments (76) | Send Message
     
    Perfect analysis, citracyde.
    16 Mar, 03:08 AM Reply Like
  • blucrab
    , contributor
    Comments (10) | Send Message
     
    this is better than all college sports!

     

    we have nothing to gain(@this moment)

     

    PULLY PUTURN PULTIN - has a lot to loose!-

     

    actually he is doing 'our-big-grother' duty!
    14 Mar, 07:04 PM Reply Like
  • CW2
    , contributor
    Comments (13) | Send Message
     
    America can invade Afghanistan and Iraq, but Russia is not allowed to invade Crimea. I'm no Commie, but hasn't the US been helping NATO push ever closer to the Russian front? Also, didn't the EU economic deal with Ukraine have military clauses in it saying that it had to abide by NATO rules?
    14 Mar, 07:08 PM Reply Like
  • Land of Milk and Honey
    , contributor
    Comments (4158) | Send Message
     
    CW2

     

    Afghanistan harbored a large group of people targeting the US for destruction, as already done multiple times, with 9/11 a direct civilian hit. The US was responding to an attack on the US.

     

    Iraq was violating international agreements put into place to protect the world, after Hussein had already attacked other before.

     

    I personally didn't agree that either war was a good solution from a chess move way or with enough caution before making that choice. Too much harm to innocents, when other solutions would have worked better. However, neither was an unprovoked invasion. The NATO situation is part of why negotations are needed and Russia rightfully has a vital interests involved. That's not a reason to annex a region unilaterally.
    14 Mar, 10:11 PM Reply Like
  • Hendershott
    , contributor
    Comments (1561) | Send Message
     
    Russia will protect it's only warm water (doesn't freeze over in the winter) naval base at any cost. Without it, Russia is no longer a global power. Russia will not allow Crimea to be allied with the EU or more specifically allied to NATO.
    15 Mar, 09:03 PM Reply Like
  • kata
    , contributor
    Comments (572) | Send Message
     
    I cant think of anything that would have made those choices now seem a fait accompli more than what Putin is doing. With Putin's actions, NATO will expand. With $100M coming out of US bonds, sanctions will be imposed. With more troops into eastern Ukraine, the EU will take action and ask for another missile defense shield deal, with gas as the weapon, Merkel will turn the nuclear plants back on line. Everything the Russians feared, they are going to force the rest of the world to do. Putin, who looked so clever after Snowden and Iran and Iraq, now looks the long term loser. And by his own hand. Even if he denies those troops are his, no insignia's and all, in a world of social media and instant access, Putin is the only one who doesn't see that Putin is over.
    15 Mar, 10:59 PM Reply Like
  • kata
    , contributor
    Comments (572) | Send Message
     
    And did I mention the so called Referendum has no "NO" box and no one is watching who is voting? Its a bad joke caused by leading from behind. And when he goes into the rest of Eastern Ukraine, he'll have another self serving explanation that no one except the propagandists on message boards will put forward for popular consumption. He is this generations version of Hitler marching to his own inner visions of glory. And if the Germans don't want to welcome him to Berlin, they'd better sound a resounding NO themselves.
    16 Mar, 05:21 PM Reply Like
  • Tricky
    , contributor
    Comments (1583) | Send Message
     
    Putin voluntarily left most of Georgia after invading it. Please name the countries that Hitler left voluntarily.
    16 Mar, 10:10 PM Reply Like
  • kata
    , contributor
    Comments (572) | Send Message
     
    Is that the measurement you use for a tyrant who marches in and takes what he wants? And he left what he did because the Bush Admin sent back battle tested Georgian troops from Afghanistan and threatened to really test him with the last three months Bush still had in office.

     

    He is already moving troops on the eastern border of Ukraine and waiting to see what Obama and Merkel do. Of course, he isn't calling them Russian troops, no insignia's, remember. They are Ukrainian Protection Troops. Russians do have a way with turning a phrase. You do remember the pomp and ceremony at the Olympics which covered his movement of troops as merely war games.

     

    Maybe I should have said Hitler like, is that better? And violating NATO is exactly the point. What are they going to do then?
    17 Mar, 03:55 PM Reply Like
  • Tricky
    , contributor
    Comments (1583) | Send Message
     
    No, leaving Georgia had zero to do with *anything* that Bush threatened him with. Russia got what it wanted -- scuttling Saakhashvili's notions about joining NATO. If Putin was scared of Bush, why did he continue to occupy small parts of Georgia?
    17 Mar, 04:01 PM Reply Like
  • kata
    , contributor
    Comments (572) | Send Message
     
    You sound a little touchy about Mr Putin? And if I were in the Ukraine, I'd be voting to join NATO now wouldn't you? They gave up their nukes, who else is going to defend them?
    17 Mar, 04:11 PM Reply Like
  • Tricky
    , contributor
    Comments (1583) | Send Message
     
    I don't like Putin. But he's not Hitler. Russia won't let Ukraine join NATO, it really is that simple. We can't practically do anything about it, nor should we try. We can't defend everyone, sorry to say.
    17 Mar, 05:59 PM Reply Like
  • kata
    , contributor
    Comments (572) | Send Message
     
    Well, as long as you asked, who exactly can we defend? And how? And when? It is NATO's credibility on the line and we have in Mr. Putin, a slightly off the wall nationalist, who is asking. And China and Iran and N. Korea who are listening for the answer. Mr. Obama has not done the US any favors here. But he's a 21st century man, lol. I'm more interested in how Merkel and Abe respond frankly because if it were I, I'd be having thoughts about providing my own defense and that means more nuclear arms not less. I know its 20th century thinking but when you change the balance of power, vacuums must be filled.
    19 Mar, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • Tricky
    , contributor
    Comments (1583) | Send Message
     
    We can, and should, defend Poland and the Baltics.

     

    We cannot, and should not, defend Ukraine or Georgia.
    19 Mar, 03:52 PM Reply Like
  • John Polomny
    , contributor
    Comments (498) | Send Message
     
    "I know its 20th century thinking but when you change the balance of power, vacuums must be filled."

     

    And history continues. Every great power rises and then inevitably falls. The US is on its downward slope and will get weaker as time goes on. Will the world become more dangerous? Probably. Is there much we can do about it? Probably not.
    19 Mar, 04:18 PM Reply Like
  • John Polomny
    , contributor
    Comments (498) | Send Message
     
    Why would we need to defend Poland and the Baltics? Do you guys think the Russians are going to invade these place? Why do you think this? What is happening in Crimea is worlds away from any invasion scenario you are envisioning.
    19 Mar, 04:20 PM Reply Like
  • Tricky
    , contributor
    Comments (1583) | Send Message
     
    Hi John,

     

    I agree with you. I do NOT think that Putin seriously intends to invade either (fantasize about it -- yes, do it -- no). I completely agree that Crimea is a very special situation that does NOT extend to the "this is Sudentenland 2.0" hysteria. I have difficulty finding a US analogy to convey how strategically valuable Sebastapol is to Russia -- they will go to the mat for it, it means way WAY more to them then it does to us, they will sacrifice almost anything to maintain control of it.

     

    I was answering the question "whom should we defend", since (allegedly) NATO's credibility is on the line because Obama's such a [select your synonym for "wimp"].

     

    Cheers,
    Tricky
    19 Mar, 04:25 PM Reply Like
  • John Polomny
    , contributor
    Comments (498) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for answering and clarifying. Was just curious.
    19 Mar, 04:30 PM Reply Like
  • kata
    , contributor
    Comments (572) | Send Message
     
    Then we are undoubtedly on the precipice of war because we will continue to be tested until the new balance of power is clear. That's history and it hasn't changed whether we like it or not. The pity is that we let it get here.
    19 Mar, 05:12 PM Reply Like
  • kata
    , contributor
    Comments (572) | Send Message
     
    Funny, I don't think Obama is a wimp at all. Just wrong in assessing how aggressive we have to be. All figures of authority have to set limits and have those limits have to be respected. That's what treaties are based on. If they are not respected, no one pays any attention to them and mischief results from those who would test those limits just to do so or those who have other agendas.

     

    Putin had other designs that were obvious but were ignored. Of course the port is important to Russia as its only warm weather port that doesn't freeze over. No one was doubting that. No one thought its relationship with Russia was in question. It now appears Russia wanted the opportunistic confrontation that they set up right under the worlds nose while we were all enjoying the curling in Sochi.

     

    They knew Obama wouldn't do anything. Not after the way Iran and Syria have been handled. They think the West is a paper tiger. I think they were testing Merkel to see what Germany and the EU would do and China to cause some mischief.

     

    So, why Georgia, and why not Poland, why not the Baltics. Why not go back to the 67 borders?, oops wrong region, same problem. Why not Soviet borders, we know what Putin thinks of that. How about we go back to the French and Indian wars and change borders right here in River City?

     

    These are the wrong questions. Its where do we go from here with our friends and allies? Are our treaties to be trusted? Not where we have all been once upon a time. Magical thinking is a dangerous way to behave.
    19 Mar, 05:36 PM Reply Like
  • PalmDesertRat
    , contributor
    Comments (2828) | Send Message
     
    also, I would like to see Europe do SOMETHING before the US gets involved.
    19 Mar, 06:51 PM Reply Like
  • Land of Milk and Honey
    , contributor
    Comments (4158) | Send Message
     
    No no on the ballot? The media hasn't been pointing that out.

     

    I'd disagree that he's the next Hitler. He's not as purely insane. He also knows he can't take over places like Germany and plan for endless expansion. By this time in his career, Hitler had already published a book that described his plans to take over the world, including Russia because the Germans needed living space. He made no secret of his plans... all while the world didn't take his announcements seriously.

     

    That said, this is not good.

     

    And freedom to vote doesn't include a stuffed ballot.
    16 Mar, 05:26 PM Reply Like
  • CW2
    , contributor
    Comments (13) | Send Message
     
    For Putin to get to Berlin he would have to go through NATO countries. I do not agree with his taking over Crimea, but the options he has to keep NATO off his doorstep are limited. Comparing Putin to Hitler is ridiculous. Hitler was a genocidal maniac who took control of a country's minds.
    Tired of people comparing Hitler to everything they do not like. Mayor Emanuel of Chicago compares the Canadian rail town that burned to the ground to Dresden. Then a week later wants to tax rail yards in Chicago so that he can monitor.
    16 Mar, 09:52 PM Reply Like
DJIA (DIA) S&P 500 (SPY)
ETF Tools
Find the right ETFs for your portfolio:
Seeking Alpha's new ETF Hub
ETF Investment Guide:
Table of Contents | One Page Summary
Read about different ETF Asset Classes:
ETF Selector