Seeking Alpha

Report: Lithium batteries probed in Malaysian Air disappearance

  • CNN is reporting that lithium batteries stored in the cargo hold are being investigated as a potential cause for the disappearance of Malaysian Air MH370.
  • The Global X Lithium ETF (LIT) is at a session low following the development, down 0.5%.
  • There is also a chance of some volatility with Tesla Motors (TSLA -3.2%) as algorithmic trading picks up on the headline. TSLA was already lower on the day before the lithium link was reported on.
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Comments (142)
  • LYogi
    , contributor
    Comments (2255) | Send Message
     
    in related news, Hydrogen Fuel Cell batteries have been tested by Boeing since 2008 and on BLDP's presentation at Roth the CFO mentioned that they have a 'game-changing' contract with a large US Client and that they were getting into the aerospace industry. (though not necessarily related, connect the dots!)
    14 Mar, 02:48 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    Since the ongoing investigation seems to clearly show the plane was hijacked and diverted it's quite obvious that lithium batteries of any type had nothing to do with it.
    16 Mar, 12:34 PM Reply Like
  • Messa
    , contributor
    Comments (19) | Send Message
     
    Its amazing and sad that something so tragic is being used as a tool for the advancement of an agenda to make money. I mean really?
    14 Mar, 02:52 PM Reply Like
  • LYogi
    , contributor
    Comments (2255) | Send Message
     
    to make money and save future lives.
    14 Mar, 03:05 PM Reply Like
  • surferbroadband
    , contributor
    Comments (1818) | Send Message
     
    Messa, you are correct, tragedy should not be used to line up someones pockets.
    14 Mar, 04:23 PM Reply Like
  • Cmyers1212
    , contributor
    Comment (1) | Send Message
     
    Link to the article?
    14 Mar, 03:04 PM Reply Like
  • litewavve
    , contributor
    Comments (2) | Send Message
     
    First of all, whether the lithium batteries were on the flight was a unconfirmed speculation.
    Secondly, even they were in the cargo, it is still a distance from being the cause of the disaster (presumably the airplane is down).
    Thirdly, even if the lithium battery caught fire and was the cause of the down airliner, it does not mean that lithium battery powered cars are more risky than gasoline powered cars.
    Lastly, until Tesla starts to fly, you will have ample time to get out of the car if the battery starts a fire.
    14 Mar, 03:56 PM Reply Like
  • Greencuda440x6
    , contributor
    Comments (25) | Send Message
     
    Uh, hold on, if it was (if if) a fire then why would the crew shut down any of the communication devices and transponder?? They would not. No, doesn't make any sense so someone is really reaching here. I think it is on the ground at some hidden airstrip.
    14 Mar, 04:06 PM Reply Like
  • surferbroadband
    , contributor
    Comments (1818) | Send Message
     
    On some deserted island in the middle of the Indian Ocean.
    14 Mar, 04:24 PM Reply Like
  • karenbcz
    , contributor
    Comments (14) | Send Message
     
    @ Greencuda- Bingo!! That plane disappeared "on purpose". They are SOMEWHERE .. alive! JMHO.
    14 Mar, 07:37 PM Reply Like
  • karenbcz
    , contributor
    Comments (14) | Send Message
     
    @ Surfer - that is exactly where I've visualized them .. on a deserted island out in the middle of nowhere.
    14 Mar, 07:38 PM Reply Like
  • joeinslw@gmail.com
    , contributor
    Comments (596) | Send Message
     
    There is a theory that this plane was stolen by terrorists and could be used like the high-jacked planes were used in the New York World Trade center buildings 2001.

     

    Hope this report is wrong, hope the suggestion is wrong, but we had better be on our toes this time with high speed fighter jets that can and will shoot them down when a jet comes close to any possible target, and hopefully our investigation or security is much better this time.
    14 Mar, 08:07 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    Hard to dispose of over 200 people, after Sept 11, when most would likely overcome the bad guys despite the risk, if they knew what was going down.

     

    Doubt the plane is in one piece regardless of what may have happened.
    14 Mar, 08:13 PM Reply Like
  • Ed Porter
    , contributor
    Comments (662) | Send Message
     
    Perhaps Elvis is there too?
    16 Mar, 04:53 PM Reply Like
  • joeinslw@gmail.com
    , contributor
    Comments (596) | Send Message
     
    Is that why Israel has increased their air security over their cities do ya think?
    No, I think that my scenario is becoming more and more plausible and logical with every passing day.
    18 Mar, 10:55 PM Reply Like
  • videomagik
    , contributor
    Comments (36) | Send Message
     
    Really? This is so blatant and transparent that it makes Fox news seem like PBS. Really, lithium batteries stored on the plane that disappeared.... lithium batteries = Tesla = fires? Please....there is stretching the truth and there is inventing the "truth". Then again this is what news often does: promote doubt, cast aspersions, suggest, insinuate , allude... no facts just plant the seed. Inception! Like Benghazi ....repeat it enough and people will believe. it. Despicable to use this as a tool to try and devaluate Tesla and this innovative EV technology. Wonder where that story comes from. Very Kochlike, from the purveyors of the oil and gas industry.
    14 Mar, 04:16 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    videomagik,

     

    Unless you have been insulated from the markets the last couple years, Airliners use Lithium batteries.

     

    Boeing 787 Lithium battery fires.

     

    Ever hear of them?

     

    Remember the laptop battery fires?

     

    Yes, the same one's Tesla bundles together in the thousands an stuffs them into their cars.

     

    Hence the relevance.
    14 Mar, 05:20 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    It is true that lithium batteries being shipped (not being charged or discharged) are very unlikely to spontaneously catch fire.

     

    I am not aware of what the lack of atmospheric pressure in an unpressurised cargo hold could possibly have?
    14 Mar, 05:36 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1920) | Send Message
     
    Actually quite different.
    Kind of like saying a Lion and a house cat are both man eaters.

     

    The Boeing used LCO (lithium cobalt oxide), no cooling, poor battery management and poor charging structure, amd were large format

     

    Tesla uses lithium nickel cobalt aluminum oxide- has active cooling, small format, and a very robust battery management software.

     

    Completely different animals.
    Also the laptop fires a few years ago were Lithium cobalt oxide, not the chemistry Tesla is using.

     

    Can after a catastophic event the Tesla battery catch fire? Yes, but so can anything else. When you expose someting to tons of force it was never designed to handle bad things happen. Could Tesla or anyone else predict a Final Destination like incident or that some driver will take a round about at extremely high speeds- nope, and as such, regardless of the car, no one designs for such things (we all are not driving Shermann tanks wrapped in bubble wrap are we?)
    14 Mar, 05:44 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    Dan Fich,

     

    Never said Tesla batteries were unstable.

     

    Only that given some of the concerns over lithium batteries in the past, it is natural for any news related to the safety of Li-Ion batteries, to spill over to the mention of Tesla.

     

    Other than that I agree with your points
    14 Mar, 05:54 PM Reply Like
  • Doc's Trading
    , contributor
    Comments (1349) | Send Message
     
    All cargo holds are pressurized... I have sent my dogs in 777 cargo holds and they didn't hold their breath till they arrived.
    14 Mar, 08:23 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    I realize so e cargo holds (as for shipping animals and the like) are certainly pressurized. I was asking if all are in fact pressurized
    15 Mar, 11:28 AM Reply Like
  • surferbroadband
    , contributor
    Comments (1818) | Send Message
     
    Wall Street Journal is reporting that the plane was flying for several hours after last contact. That is why the US Navy is sending the US Kidd to the Indian Ocean.

     

    Plane was either hijacked or pilot flew to another location. Batteries issue is total BS. Just meant to knock down Tesla Motors.

     

    Lets face it, the oil industry with the auto dealers in New Jersey and the jokers in Detroit want Tesla to fail real bad.
    14 Mar, 04:21 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    The Oil industry may have some concerns about the remote possibility as to Tesla becoming a disruption.

     

    But I can assure you, state level politics affecting Dealer franchise models has nothing to do with the Oil industry.

     

    The same democratic legislature that made Teslas exempt from Sales tax as a "green" vehicle, also wrote the legislation to protect dealers that don't even already have any Tesla franchises in place.
    14 Mar, 05:09 PM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1584) | Send Message
     
    Electric cars with lithium batteries are not GREEN. Approx half of the the world's electricity is produced by burning coal which is the worst pollutant on the planet. So electric vehicles are half running on coal. Shorted TSLA at $260. So far so good. It is trading at 135x future earnings compared to GM and F at 10 x earnings. Lets get real. New technology is around the corner and will make EV obsolete?
    14 Mar, 04:30 PM Reply Like
  • winfield100
    , contributor
    Comments (750) | Send Message
     
    @ i need a bailout. and the new technology is WHAT?
    14 Mar, 04:58 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1920) | Send Message
     
    Well, you really must do a more in depth look at the energy.

     

    To say 50% of the world is powered by coal is meaningless.

     

    First off- a povety stricken nation with a unstable electrical grid is not where most tesla are going to be bought.

     

    Secondly, you must look at how the EVs are charging. Long answer, EVs for the most park charge at night. This enables more baseload power, which is the more efficient energy generation. This means over the long run, despite more power being used, the emissions actually decrease.
    14 Mar, 05:31 PM Reply Like
  • LYogi
    , contributor
    Comments (2255) | Send Message
     
    @Winfield

     

    Hydrogen Fuel Cells.

     

    http://bit.ly/1cLxpTb
    14 Mar, 05:39 PM Reply Like
  • Rik1381
    , contributor
    Comments (1420) | Send Message
     
    "Approx half of the the world's electricity is produced by burning coal"

     

    False. It's 40%.
    http://bit.ly/PlSb7e

     

    "So electric vehicles are half running on coal."

     

    No they're not. They are running on whatever energy sources power their EV charger.

     

    Most Teslas happen to be located in areas with green electricity.

     

    Norway - highest per capita ownership of Teslas in the world - almost entirely hydroelectric.

     

    Washington state - highest per capita ownership of Teslas in the US - almost entirely hydroelectric.

     

    SF Bay Area California - over 50% renewable or zero carbon sources power the grid. No coal. http://bit.ly/109PTdd

     

    Also, many EV owners have rooftop solar to offset their EV charging. In California, it's nearly 40%. http://bit.ly/17KylVJ
    14 Mar, 06:24 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    Rick1381,

     

    40% not really that far from 1/2.

     

    But very true what you say.

     

    Electricity energy source varies greatly by where are one is located, at least in the US. Some locations use little to no coal. I have seen some maps.

     

    However, Solar is a miniscule of the total in aggregate, and mostly serves to supplement peak demand. (during business hours)

     

    And most EV charging tales place at night, while the sun does not shine.

     

    To portray EV's as "solar powered" is quite a stretch.
    14 Mar, 06:33 PM Reply Like
  • Rik1381
    , contributor
    Comments (1420) | Send Message
     
    1980XLS,

     

    I didn't say EVs are "solar powered". I said most EVs are in areas with green electricity. There are other sources of green electricity besides solar.

     

    Solar is not a small percentage of the power for the homes of EV owners. In California, 39% of EV owners have residential solar and another 17% plan to get solar. This is not miniscule. http://bit.ly/17KylVJ

     

    In these homes, the kWh solar generation offsets the kWh used for EV charging. That's the way my electric utility counts it, even if you do not.

     

    In addition to residential solar there is utility-scale solar. Yesterday, utility-scale solar provided 4.7% of California's grid-supplied electricity. A number of new utility-scale solar plants are under construction, so this number will continue to increase.
    14 Mar, 07:03 PM Reply Like
  • tech01x
    , contributor
    Comments (775) | Send Message
     
    If you look at the electricity generation on a state by state basis, the states with the highest levels of EVs registered have far lower coal usage, especially at night. All but in the Chicago area.

     

    At night, CA is wind and natural gas. Oregon/Washington state is wind and hydro. Northeast and mid-Atlantic is mostly nuclear and hydro. The coal plants are at idle levels at super off peak times. Further, the additional charging of EVs makes it more likely that electric utilities will commission more base load power plants that are more efficient (but harder to ramp up) than peaker plants, which makes electricity generation more efficient overall. More than 3/4's of all Telsa Model S's sold in the U.S. use negligible amounts of additional coal electricity generation.

     

    Even if a Model S used 100% coal power, it would still have the pollution and carbon emissions roughly equivalent of a Toyota Prius. Certainly far lower pollutants and carbon emissions than a Mercedes E class or BMW 5 series. Not bad for a 4600 pound car that seats 5 and is roughly the same size as an Audi S7. Further, the location of the pollution matters too - BEV's do not pollute inside most cities.

     

    http://1.usa.gov/1o4IJRk

     

    In Charleston, West Virginia, where most of the power comes from coal (96%), the total CO2 emissions including upstream:
    Model S: 300 g/mile
    Plug in Prius: 230 g/mile
    Audi S7: 441 g/mile
    Panamera S: 429 g/mile

     

    In Seattle, the picture looks very different:
    Model S: 170 g/mile
    Plug in Prius: 200 g/mile
    Audi S7: 441 g/mile
    Panamera S: 429 g/mile

     

    In San Francisco, it's even lower: 150 g/mile.

     

    Again, these are using annual averages which is misleading... the Model S is far better than this because of nighttime charging. The annual average puts in a lot of electricity generation during the day using both coal and natural gas.

     

    BEV's like the Model S can be solar powered with daytime charging off solar. The internal combustion engines do work off solar, but there's a long detour from the solar energy before it becomes oil. Further, BEVs are not at the pricing mercy of OPEC. Even if all our oil came from domestic production, the nature of the market means that OPEC still gets significant input into the pricing of oil.

     

    In my area, I charge off a nuclear power plant at night at just under 6 cents/kWh. That means a fill up from empty costs about $4.75. When OPEC or some other oil production issue comes about as it usually does, my cost is still roughly $4.75.

     

    Further, the emissions from the production of the batteries has been shown to be far lower than what some oil funded studies have suggested. It doesn't take long for a BEV owner to recoup the difference and end up being greener than an internal combustion engine.
    15 Mar, 01:02 AM Reply Like
  • ThosEM
    , contributor
    Comments (84) | Send Message
     
    Interesting but where do I fuel up?
    15 Mar, 11:33 AM Reply Like
  • Rik1381
    , contributor
    Comments (1420) | Send Message
     
    Most EV charging -- probably 90-95% -- is done overnight at home. Here's an example showing a Tesla Model S being charged using an outdoor power socket and the EVSE that comes with every Model S. http://bit.ly/1lF0HYY
    15 Mar, 02:52 PM Reply Like
  • Greencuda440x6
    , contributor
    Comments (25) | Send Message
     
    Sorry dude, but you see hydropower is solar (how do you think that darn snow gets back up in the mountains). Then there is this thing called a battery that is charged by a solar cell then used at night to charge various things around your house, no grid, no coal. The NW US is primarily renewable (solar) with a bit of nuc stuff thrown in. So keep wishing and maybe give a thought to what generates that electricity that you seem to hate so much.
    Oh and which would you rather have 60% or 40% of a good thing?
    15 Mar, 04:01 PM Reply Like
  • joeinslw@gmail.com
    , contributor
    Comments (596) | Send Message
     
    Still trying to get the longs to sell so you can make money on your shorts are ya? Wrong, tsla went UP today over 6 points, get ready to loose your shorts, LOL.
    18 Mar, 10:59 PM Reply Like
  • ThosEM
    , contributor
    Comments (84) | Send Message
     
    Sorry, I meant this as a reply to LYogi, who seems fixated on
    Hydrogen Fuel Cells. http://bit.ly/1cLxpTb
    19 Mar, 01:05 PM Reply Like
  • TikiManProd
    , contributor
    Comments (126) | Send Message
     
    Seriously? So I guess next they will be saying that Li batteries have a mind of their own, thus consciously and deliberately turned off all the GPS and communication systems aboard the missing jetliner, that supposedly was still sending a ‘ping’ signal as it ran out of fuel five hours later (rolling eyes).

     

    Can you say...'grasping at straws'?
    14 Mar, 04:37 PM Reply Like
  • TikiManProd
    , contributor
    Comments (126) | Send Message
     
    BTW... This is actually GREAT news for Tesla Motors if true! Because we all know that the airline manufactures have NO CLUE how to build Li battery technology (thus the reason why it’s in question). Thus Tesla could very well become the #1 multi-billion dollar Li operations for all existing airline manufactures world-wide!

     

    Giga-factory… more like Tera-factory!!!
    14 Mar, 04:45 PM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1584) | Send Message
     
    More like giggle-factory.
    28 Mar, 11:39 AM Reply Like
  • bigrowdaddy
    , contributor
    Comments (15) | Send Message
     
    Logaritmic link. What a joke.
    14 Mar, 05:12 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    TikiManProd,

     

    Airlines don't build Li-Ion batteries.

     

    The one's that have troubled the Boeing 787 are built by Yuasa in Japan, just like the Panasonic ones Tesla buys and bundles together by the thousands to create a Tesla battery pack, using old technology laptop batteries.

     

    The same ones that have caused many laptops to catch fire in the past.
    14 Mar, 05:24 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    No, the Tesla cells are not like the Boeing or laptop cells.
    14 Mar, 05:51 PM Reply Like
  • tech01x
    , contributor
    Comments (775) | Send Message
     
    SAE interviewed Tesla CTO JB Straubel and you can read it here: http://bit.ly/1lDWSn7

     

    The relevant portion says, "We’ve totally custom-engineered that cell working jointly with Panasonic to create. It’s an automotive cell, tested to automotive standards. It doesn’t go into laptops anywhere. What keeps us in that general shape and size is the production and cost efficiency. We’re seeing price points that none of the larger-format cells are able to meet."

     

    Tesla uses cells of the highest available specific energy density. Between getting them at the lowest cost and interweaving cooling jackets for the best control, Tesla has the best EV battery pack technology. If you can't tell the difference between what happened with Boeing and their battery pack and what Tesla is doing, then you should do more homework.

     

    More background available in this MIT Technology Review interview:

     

    http://bit.ly/1lDWV2b
    14 Mar, 06:55 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    It may be modified in it's packaging and chemistry but it's still a laptop architecture

     

    That's Tesla talking.

     

    "Tesla's founders decided from the start to power the car with lightweight lithium-ion batteries of the type used in laptops"

     

    (from your article)

     

    Musk and his lieutenants are spin masters
    14 Mar, 07:06 PM Reply Like
  • tech01x
    , contributor
    Comments (775) | Send Message
     
    1980XLS, what exactly does "laptop architecture" really mean to you? Beyond using 18650 format, it means nothing in this context. So your entire disparaging dismissal is really based on the 18650 size, which is ludicrous.

     

    I'm not sure you understand lithium ion batteries at all. The most advanced chemistry could be made into 18650 cells. Or prismatic cells. Or other form factors. Why so hung up on the form factor?
    14 Mar, 07:25 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    Quote was from the article. verbatim.

     

    Laptop batteries with cooling system added to keep them from catching fire in an automotive application.
    14 Mar, 07:27 PM Reply Like
  • tech01x
    , contributor
    Comments (775) | Send Message
     
    1980XLS,

     

    My quote was verbatim too.

     

    You wrote, "old technology laptop batteries." "Type used in laptops" is not the same as exactly the same as laptop batteries. In this context, type used means the same form factor. Further, they are certainly not old technology. Again, JB Straubel said, "It’s an automotive cell, tested to automotive standards. It doesn’t go into laptops anywhere."
    15 Mar, 12:39 AM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    "old technology laptop batteries" not the same as "type used in laptops" ?

     

    Semantics, that's pushing it.
    15 Mar, 11:33 AM Reply Like
  • omcdac
    , contributor
    Comments (127) | Send Message
     
    @litewavve - i am 100% agree with you.
    14 Mar, 05:25 PM Reply Like
  • Doc's Trading
    , contributor
    Comments (1349) | Send Message
     
    TSLA Tech analysis for traders: If she trades 129 Monday she should get close or breach the 118 gap made on her way to 165 that I've been talking about since the high day (265).
    On the other side of the coin, if she can close above 135.10, she should continue on for a total of three days. If the rally is not accompanied with volume greater than 9 million shares, she will test the lows that she made before the rally, once again.
    I find resistance on this first rally at 248-249. Shorting with short term (one week) out of the money, call spreads should be attempted at these levels.
    If she breaks down under 129, do not sell, but rather wait for a low volume day near 118 to start nibbling so as to scale into a position. Best and least risky is to sell out of the money (short term) put spreads on that day.
    more later......
    14 Mar, 08:39 PM Reply Like
  • tech01x
    , contributor
    Comments (775) | Send Message
     
    News from the Russia/Ukraine story and the Chinese economy completely trump any of the technical analysis. Any blip of good news from either story and especially from both stories will make the market turn, including TSLA regardless of the support levels. This stock is itching to go back north of 260 in the short term especially with the high level of short interest again. The TA is interesting only if there are no other significant influences.
    15 Mar, 12:42 AM Reply Like
  • Doc's Trading
    , contributor
    Comments (1349) | Send Message
     
    nonsense !
    15 Mar, 06:12 AM Reply Like
  • herbs4mike
    , contributor
    Comments (2079) | Send Message
     
    HIJACKED AIRLINES...... I'm in KL, Malaysia. This is the word on the news here. This was a hijacked airlines
    15 Mar, 05:03 AM Reply Like
  • SA User 74XXXXX
    , contributor
    Comments (560) | Send Message
     
    Good morning, the plane rescue effort has been extended to the Indian Ocean to try to rescue the people onboard, period.
    15 Mar, 10:35 AM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    Cleary there was foul play, carried out By Muslim extremist, LGBT left wing terrorists.

     

    Any other conclusions are just the stuff of Conspiracy theory Kooks.

     

    http://bit.ly/1iNP5pm

     

    :)
    15 Mar, 11:38 AM Reply Like
  • Bhupin
    , contributor
    Comments (2) | Send Message
     
    For once Drone can earn good reputation" -How about suggesting USA to use Drones for search to help unfortunate passengers" What I mean is using it for constructive purposes
    15 Mar, 11:47 AM Reply Like
  • Doc's Trading
    , contributor
    Comments (1349) | Send Message
     
    Seriously, Now that's a great idea. Why didn't US think of that instead of sending a carrier.... or perhaps the carrier is so equipped? Why not phone the idea in to NASA or a some other government agency ??
    15 Mar, 02:38 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    I assume it is likely many spy satellites are being retasked for this search.

     

    It will be found, but sadly I highly doubt all in one piece.
    15 Mar, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • marshgre
    , contributor
    Comments (509) | Send Message
     
    Maybe I'm thick in the head this morning, but what does the batteries in a 777 have to do with TSLA?
    15 Mar, 12:18 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    Whenever the inherent safety of Lithium Ion batteries comes into question, it is only natural for Tesla's name to come up in the discussion, as Tesla's existence and possibilities depend on it.

     

    Does not in any way mean Tesla or it's batteries are in fact unsafe, but given the stocks incredible run & valuation it will always invite scrutiny.
    15 Mar, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • alext1379
    , contributor
    Comments (706) | Send Message
     
    Was watching PLUG and FCEL to see if gains were real when this news came out. PLUG dropped over $1 and FCEL 30 cents, computer trading I suspect as most people on the PLUG/FCEL forums had no idea why it was going down. Either that or it was a coincidence short sellers tanked the stock at the same time.
    15 Mar, 04:55 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1920) | Send Message
     
    Most recent news concern the plane disappearance.

     

    "Investigators now have a high degree of certainty that one of the plane's communications systems -- the Aircraft and Communications Addressing and Reporting System -- was disabled before the aircraft reached the east coast of Malaysia, Najib said. Shortly afterward, someone on board then switched off the aircraft's transponder, which communicates with civilian air traffic controllers."

     

    If it was a battery fire as this SA article insinuates, then why would they say someone intentionally turned off both systems?
    15 Mar, 08:28 PM Reply Like
  • marshgre
    , contributor
    Comments (509) | Send Message
     
    Why is Tesla mentioned in this title? Tesla's small format cells are different than the large format cells in the 777's batteries.

     

    Why not mention Boeing they build the plane that is missing. Next you will be putting references to Tesla in the articles about the 900,000 Hondas that have been recalled - at least that's a related industry.
    17 Mar, 11:30 AM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    Why?

     

    Because Tesla relies on lithium batteries, that's why.
    17 Mar, 01:01 PM Reply Like
  • Rik1381
    , contributor
    Comments (1420) | Send Message
     
    And tires! Don't forget that the 777 and Model S both have rubber tires!
    17 Mar, 01:16 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1920) | Send Message
     
    Apparently the article was trying to imply that batteries that were in the cargo hold caught fire and took down the aircraft.

     

    Why mention Tesla is beyond me also, except click bait.

     

    I'm betting there was jet fuel in the plane too, of course we would never say that bad jet fuel caused the issue.

     

    lithium batteries are in almost every piece of portable electronics to try to place blame without one shred of evidence is just plain fear mongering.
    17 Mar, 06:09 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    If you don't want the name "Tesla" to come up anytime the safety of lithium batteries may come into question, you probably should not be long the stock.

     

    Just like an Apple shareholder complaining about smartphone sales metrics.

     

    It's part of the deal. Deal with it.
    17 Mar, 06:12 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1920) | Send Message
     
    1980XLS
    It's very different in this situation.
    1. There was no "proof" or even a remote inkling that the batteries were to blame
    Here's the exact quote from CNN
    "If lithium batteries were being carried in the cargo hold, they could have caused a crash-inducing fire. But that would not explain other anomalies, such as why the plane appears to have turned west. A pilot's likely first instinct if lithium batteries were smoldering would have been to turn around and return to the airport of origin -- not to fly an additional five hours, said Arthur Rosenberg, an aviation expert who is a pilot, engineer and partner in the New York-based law firm Soberman & Rosenberg."

     

    2. If they want to mention battery safety, they should have mentioned Samsung, LG or Panasonic
    3. If you feel compelled to mention Tesla, also mention Nissan, Mitsubishi, Ford, GM, and BMW; all use lithium batteries

     

    Are you familiar with how these programs work? The minute the algorithm sees "battery fire Tesla" in the same headline, it sells shares. Compound that a few hundred times and it is a problem.

     

    It's not about Tesla, it's about someone trying to exploit a weak link in the algorithms for personal gain.
    17 Mar, 06:45 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    Not expressing an opinion whether or not justified, or to what degree.

     

    It is what it is.

     

    You have to live with it, if you're long TSLA, like it or not.

     

    The other companies you mention's mere existence does not rely on Lithium batteries as does TSLA.
    17 Mar, 06:52 PM Reply Like
  • marshgre
    , contributor
    Comments (509) | Send Message
     
    @1980xls

     

    As pointed out by Rik1381 above, the aircraft in question was also equipped with rubber tires so why not mention Good Year in the headline? I also assume that this plain had some paint on it somewhere so why not mention Dow? Or BP could be mentioned as the aircraft also had a petroleum based fuel on board.

     

    To simply throw Tesla into a headline about a missing airliner is just flatly wrong. Why don't we mention Toyota as I'm sure one of the missing passengers owns a Toyota. It's garbage reporting like this that can do harm to a legitimate company and it's investors.

     

    I see a foul, so I call a foul.
    17 Mar, 10:03 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    marshgre,

     

    I did not say I agree with it, nor that it was correct. Only that it is natural, and not unexpected.

     

    You seem to have missed my point entirely.

     

    Until Tesla has a few more years of statistical data as a safety record, any time lithium battery safety is called into question, Tesla's name will come up.
    18 Mar, 08:31 AM Reply Like
  • marshgre
    , contributor
    Comments (509) | Send Message
     
    1980xls

     

    And by not questioning the artificial connection that is made between Tesla and unrelated lithium battery technology you miss my point.

     

    It is only by calling this sort of false connection into question that these kind of "click bait" headlines can be kept to a minimum. Seeking Alpha should be above this. If any company should be listed in the headline it should be Boing.

     

    The whole thing has been debunked and the blame for the real bad reporting rests with CNN on this one.
    18 Mar, 08:59 PM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    To all the techies and psuedo scientists on this communication, how about a LITTLE common sense. The NIMH battery is basically a fuel cell with SOLID Hydrogen(Hydride) in the negative electrode. NIMH batteries in the world 7-8 MILLION hybrids Honda and primarily Toyota Prius with some others thrown in. Amt of fires- explosions in those several million vehicles as above essentially NONE(surely none reported). Now to the famous LITHIUM technologies (23 chemistries) which contribute to approx 96,000 vehicles per year of late(Nissan leaf-Chevy Volt-Tesla-etc). Let me tell you all the fires explosions. Tesla fires. Fisker fires. Chevy Volt fires. Boeing planes fires. Cellphone fires. Laptop fires. UPS fires. Fedex fires. Other airlines fires-140 mid air fires over approx 20 years involving LITHIUM batteries. Lyogi you have wisdom in your statements on BLP and the hydrogen fuel cell and/or NIMH battery. These clowns who are perpetuating the LITHIUM MYTH are just that clowns. Lithium is dangerous as hell SPARKS INTERNALLY(SHORTS) it's own fires explosions. Gasoline/Hydrogen/flam... need an external SPARK. They have No internal spark or thermal runnaway. But these pseudo-scientists/teckies are legends in their own mines. If the Malaysian plane was carrying Lithium batteries in the Cargo Hold/there is always POTENTIAL for fire explosion with Lithium(take a look at the Periodic Chart). Sounds a bit like trying to defend The Nuke Myth after Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Japan Furikema and a few other Nuke mishaps over the years(Fermi One Detroit, Mi). Carrying Lithium CARGO in planes with hundreds of passengers = Stupid is as stupid does Forrest Gump. Finally the Hindenberg(of Hydrogen fame) did NOT spark or IGNITE itself. The highly flammable sealant covering the skin of the airship caught fire first which the SPARKED the hydrogen in the vessel's bladder.
    23 Mar, 07:30 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    Wow, "zealot" is an appropriate moniker. Not a shred of accurate information in that rant. The fact is that lithium chemistry is safe enough that we all walk around with them in our pockets, hold them to our faces, and sit them in our laps, every day, by the billions. Lithium also powers medical devices implanted in our bodies, every day, for years. The three Tesla fires were from accidents, the Fisker fires were related to the 12Volt system, NOT the lithium batteries, the two Volt battery fires were in a testing lab, and Boeing's problems are all related to improper management of their batteries. Sorry to tell you but lithium technology is here to stay, and getting better all the time.
    23 Mar, 09:35 AM Reply Like
  • joeinslw@gmail.com
    , contributor
    Comments (596) | Send Message
     
    Zealot---All that gobbledygook sounds like your shorting the stock too !
    23 Mar, 09:33 PM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    Oh contrare . I have never shorted any stock, only buy sell. I am to unsophisticated to play the games of wall st(options-longs, shorts). You totally missed it buddy. Back to your cave IGOR. Your gobblegook you elude to awaits you for dinner(bushes again??). Haggar the Horrible awaits you.
    25 Mar, 06:13 AM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    Actually the Volt fires were not really even in a testing lab.

     

    They occurred weeks after intentional destructive testing, as a result of improper storage , de-commissioning & disposal of the wreckage.

     

    Not unlike leaving around some gasoline soaked rag on your basement floor, and then wondering why they may have started a fire weeks later.
    23 Mar, 09:55 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    Well I consider the NHTSA facility a testing lab, and only the first fire was three weeks after the crash test, the other was a bare pack that was directly penetrated in the lab. I broke it all down here:
    http://bit.ly/Hx8vf6
    23 Mar, 10:31 AM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    Dear JRP 3 any relation to RG 3??? Soo you are an expert I see!!!! I did not say Lithium is not here to stay just like I didn't say Nuke is not here to stay, but if you are going to argue anything GET your facts straight. Do tell me about lithium fires/explosions in battery factories(there have been several, Sony, Panasonic,Energizer-pr... cell factory). Also Lithium recycling center of TOXCO @ Trails British Columbia-spent batteries. GM Warren Mich Tech Center Lithium batteries on test blew out windows, injured a few people. UPS cargo plane in Dubai cargo of Lithium-ion batteries, plane crashed pilot/co-pilot killed few years back. Fedex Li-ion batteries for electric car cargo plane on tarmack fire smoke/plane not in air. And another cargo plane with li-ion a few yrs back disappeared between Indonesian Penn and Korean Penn. Documented 140 mid air incidents with LITHIUM batteries since 90's. Again get your facts straight the lithium battery for the pacemakers implanted are primary batteries not secondary batteries(rechargable). Various cell phones/laptops problems with lithium-ion we all know about. Taxis cabs electrics in China with Li-ion have flamed. I could go on and on but will not waste my time. Obviously, 140 mid-air incidents as above with lithium cargo means nothing to you!!! Everything in life is a risk reward ratio. You obviously want to risk your life riding in any type of projectile(car-truck-p... etc) going down the highways with substantial lithium-ion on board, hopefully not drunk or hit by drunk or altered sensorium driver. I prefer to go down the road in THE PROVEN SAFE TOYOTA PRIUS( some 6-7 million of them without incident worldwide). Your choice VIA CON DIOS!!!!!
    23 Mar, 02:37 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1920) | Send Message
     
    You mean the Chinese taxi cab that was t-boned with a high end sports car that was going in excess of 120 mph.

     

    It is completely unreasonable to assume any car to survive that type of incident and "bad things" not happen. It's basic physics

     

    There were 3 incidences with Tesla Model S.

     

    Well, the first one, had the battery NOT been there there is a good chance that the person would have suffered severe injuries regardless of the type of car (think of the pack as a sacrificial part- I'd rather have my car on fire than a 3 inch piece of metal go through my leg- could just be me though)

     

    Second one- The guy, again going over 100 mph, drunk, got a 4700 lb car to go airborne (no small feat) demolished a cement wall, AND the car kept on going despite the back axle being demolished and looks like it finally rested on a jersey barrier (looks like the car was eating the jersey barrier). Well he walked away. Had that been a regular car- the driver would be eating the engine and possibly deceased.

     

    Third fire- See first explanation. It was a final destination type incident, literally, I saw a tow truck hitch in #5 of #4 that mimics that pretty well. Again- pulverize any battery and wonky things are going to happen.

     

    You are talking about different chemistires too.. Some more stable than others. The Tesla Roadster uses a pretty unstable chemistry and no problems.

     

    Let me get this straight. You link all lithium batteries, then say that only rechargeable ones are the ones with issues. Well, if they are packaged and ready for shipment they are not recharging and the chemistry are pretty stable (although if you expose anything to excessive heat there is always a chance to catch fire).

     

    Well, now your issue with hit by a drunk driver- well, there have been incidences where the Tesla Model S has been clipped and t-boned and not battery fires. Since the battery is low, you need to get into a horrific accident or have some random hardened metal object on the road. You do know that there was a Model S that hit a telephone pole- battery did not catch fire and actually sheared the telephone poll in half- A few years ago there was an incident with a Viper- same type accident- the person died.

     

    Back to JRP3's point- How many gasoline fires are their per year? You forgot the Prius is carrying quite alot of flammable liquid.
    This video illustrates the dangerous of refineries- sadly 2 dozen killed, 40 injured. Gasoline fires happen all the time, in NJ we had quite a number of tanker fires- it happens
    http://bit.ly/1mp3j0i
    23 Mar, 04:23 PM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    If I have it right we are not talking about gasoline-we all know it is explosive and burns(chemistry one o one). We are not talking about generated forces and momentum in ref to the integrity of a vehicles body(physics one o one). Stop AVOIDING the issue Lithium batteries have a horrible track record in multiple examples, like me count the ways (poetry one o one, Browning). I am not a Moron, I am a High School graduate. Do book your next flight on a long distance plane carrying LITHIUM BATTERY cargo in the cargo hold. Via con Dios, amigo. You might want to take a few stiff drinks before boarding the plane.
    25 Mar, 06:25 AM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    Fichana,

     

    "Well, the first one, had the battery NOT been there there is a good chance that the person would have suffered severe injuries regardless of the type of car (think of the pack as a sacrificial part- I'd rather have my car on fire than a 3 inch piece of metal go through my leg- could just be me though)"

     

    While I agree with pretty much all your points, the Additional Spin from your quote, is a bit of a stretch. People run over junk in the road everyday in conventional cars without personal injury.

     

    No, maybe not just you, Musk the Spin doctor too.

     

    The Damage to the car in the circumstances was understandable and justified, I agree, but the magical "Model S Cures Cancer" rants are just silly.
    23 Mar, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    1980XLS,
    Are you saying that objects never punch up through the floors of vehicles?

     

    http://bit.ly/Q7fmm3
    http://on.thestar.com/...
    http://nyti.ms/1ek7eoi
    24 Mar, 09:12 AM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    JRP3/Dan Fichana/1980XLS Go to Vegas and play the numbers game. Total new pure electrics and new plug in electrics@ 96,000 last year worldwide. Now compare that with multiple different aged NIMH powered Hybrids(Prius being about 70%)@ approx 7-8 MILLION vehicles(worldwide) of again of all ages and stages of total miles(some Ann Arbor Mi taxis as Prius have over 375,000 miles on original NIMH battery). Fires of battery packs/explosions NONE to observations. Sales of Tesla last yr 2013 approx 25,000 and expected over 30,000 this year 2014. OK extrapolate any of the lithium battery powered cars(of ALL differing chemistries about 23 types) from that approx 100,000 number (all types of cars) and miss the mark by 10 to the second power approx. Now ask the Las Vegas group to factor in 140 mid- air Lithium battery instances(reported-fir... etc) and they would be happy to bet and give the odds of other impending problems with lithium-ion chemistries individually(23) or grouped together either in the air or on the ground or pooled together. And good luck having the inept utilities charging any number of pooled Teslas within a concentrated area@ 85 Kilowatt-hrs of storage. They have enough trouble keeping the lights on(good luck finding nine nines of reliablity). Best of luck with the charging and with risk reward ratio. Again Via con Dios.
    23 Mar, 05:58 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1920) | Send Message
     
    Zealot
    Please tell us how a Prius would handle a horrific accident where it goes airborne and essentially eats a Jersey barrier. While it MAY not catch fire, there is a good chance the person would not be walking away from that type of accident.

     

    Also for the other 2 fires- like for like. Take a 3 inch metal object and subject the Prius battery to 25 tons of force.

     

    They have to be like for like accidents- You can't say that some weird fire due to a low riding car and an incident with hardened road debris and then compare it to a higher riding car. That is like saying Tesla has 0 fuel injection fires vs ICE cars.
    24 Mar, 08:38 PM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    Please do a simple math exercise take the total number of Toyota Prius(plural) and find the number of bad accidents with fires, worldwide. Then take the number of Teslas and other pure electrics worldwide and find the number of accidents with fires. You are comparing millions(7-8 million vehicles) vs a few tens of thousands of vehicles. You would be off by greater than ten to the second power!! Happy counting. May I remind you Prius=NIMH battery. Pure electrics=Lithium battery. May I remind you apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
    25 Mar, 06:35 AM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    Zealot,

     

    No long nor bullish TSLA, certainly not at these price levels.

     

    Good car, (foe some) very limited market, in my view.

     

    I agree that Hybrid makes much more economic sense (cost/benefit) at the current level of available battery technology.
    23 Mar, 06:39 PM Reply Like
  • joeinslw@gmail.com
    , contributor
    Comments (596) | Send Message
     
    No your not long-ish or bullish tsla, you are short-tish tsla aren't--tish ya??? LOL
    23 Mar, 10:07 PM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1584) | Send Message
     
    Lithium battery recalls are found in all places of human endeavor. From PC's to Boeing aircraft there is lots of smoke. Where there is smoke there is fire? (no pun intended re the fires in Tesla vehicles)
    25 Mar, 11:36 AM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    JRP3 and Dan the man Fichana, and all you Elon Musk/Tesla lovers news flash Plug Power up 50% 3-25-2014. Getting a little concerned especially your main man Mr. Musk said of fuel cells Bull.... Is the life of the electro-chemical battery being cut short. Don't get me wrong Mr. Musk has done some wonderful things especially Space-X. He knows a little bit about HYDROGEN. Looks like the HYDROGEN-Electro-chemical challenge is heating up. Stay tuned!!!!!!!!! and keep your batteries charged.
    26 Mar, 06:58 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    Take a look at the 5 or 10 year chart of PLUG. We've seen this hype machine crash and burn before. Oh the humanity!
    26 Mar, 07:40 PM Reply Like
  • LYogi
    , contributor
    Comments (2255) | Send Message
     
    A lot changes in 5 and 10 years. Especially this last decade.

     

    The batteries are become economically viable as the Wallmart deal indicates and the success of HFCs in creating clean, quiet, service-free, energy:

     

    http://bit.ly/1l5yZVR
    26 Mar, 08:03 PM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1584) | Send Message
     
    The FAA keeps detailed records of all the lithium battery fires on planes. Its a huge list. Tesla fires due to lithium batteries are currently under investigation by the government and we should hear something soon?

     

    http://1.usa.gov/1gXN2aS
    26 Mar, 09:17 AM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the list. The ones that think the lithium technology is sooo perfect have their heads in the sand. Take a look at RECYCLING of SPENT? lithium batteries, Trails British Columbia, Toxco recycling center it is on U-Tube. It is a massive 4th of July-like exposition. These are supposed to be used up batteries for recycling purposes only. It is a BIG SHOW/REALLY BIG SHOW!!!!
    26 Mar, 10:09 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    You want a really big show, look up all the neighborhood CNG pipeline explosions that happen all the time.
    26 Mar, 07:41 PM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1584) | Send Message
     
    Thank goodness Tesla's does not run on stuff in those CNG pipelines.
    26 Mar, 11:08 PM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    You continue to avoid the issue. Read my lips LITHIUM in multiple formats has a less than desirable track record. Factories, consumer products, cars, planes,all have had their UGLY stories. Natural gas pipelines usually are either hit by construction mistakes, old pipelines like N.Y.C. pipeline failures, sabotage. Usually there is a warning, hissing, smell, etc and line can be shut down. Once a LITHIUM battery goes into THERMAL RUNAWAY best of luck. And good luck with warnings especially in the AIR flying over large bodies of water. Somehow you don't get the concept that LITHIUM has a less than desirable track record. Once Lithium in transportation cars, planes has the numbers of fossil fuels( bazzillion units) or NIMH battery(approaching in the 10's of millions of units) then one can compare safety. In transportation lithium's track record is deplorable with very very small numbers of cars, planes, etc. Nobody is arguing the numbers in consumer electronics and their relative safety with lithium. Again we are talking TRANSPORTATION. As you go in your lithium powered whatever down the road or in the air, Adios Amigo and Via con Dios!!!!!!!!
    27 Mar, 06:23 AM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1584) | Send Message
     
    Toyota Prius uses NiMH batteries. They have sold millions of these vehicles and were smart to stay away from the lithium batteries.
    27 Mar, 10:41 AM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    http://aol.it/1iDRJL3
    27 Mar, 10:56 AM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    Bailout you get it. Yes millions upon millions check out Car driver magazine June 2013 you will see how good the NIMH really is. Besides in Japan Toyota dealerships they use older NIMH to store solar energy which they put PV on their dealerships roofs. Post Furikema nuke disaster MITI has committed 12 Billion $$$ for solar PV. Also Toyota(prime earth energy-80% Toy and 20% panasonic) recycle the NIMH battery for metal components to go into new batteries at their factories. Toyota makes batteries in house as above. Also NIMH battery is a water based electrolye and the Lithium battery is organic solvent based electrolyte(highly flamable). Short in NIMH is snuffed(water based)/whereas short in lithium propagates to fire explosion. These are in ref not to external shorts these are INTERNAL shorts. Crossing battery terminals will lead to external shorts or violation of lithium battery casing same effect.
    27 Mar, 11:26 AM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    Lithium probably for Plug in hybrids and some pure electrics? Toyota and Honda will be making Full hybrids like the Toyota Prius both in China. Battery will be NIMH made by Hunan Corun New Energy brand new fully automated factory in China. The rare earths used in NIMH battery are very very plentiful in China. The major push that I see(my opinion and others) for Toyota(the Big numbers will be NIMH). If you read the Exxon Mobil report energy to 2040 the MAJOR electric car will be the Full Hybrid(ex Prius) Not the plug in hybrid and not the pure electric. This many page report available from Exxon Mobil. Any doubts about NIMH read Car Driver June 2013-"NIMH will be around for a long long time".
    27 Mar, 11:38 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    "Toyota Prius uses NiMH batteries. They have sold millions of these vehicles and were smart to stay away from the lithium batteries."

     

    All plugin Prius use Lithium Ion. So no, they did not stay away from the lithium batteries, they used them because they are superior to NiMH batteries.
    27 Mar, 09:10 PM Reply Like
  • LYogi
    , contributor
    Comments (2255) | Send Message
     
    Fuel Cells are the future hombres
    27 Mar, 10:45 AM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1584) | Send Message
     
    Toyota has NEVER been a big fan of lithium ion batteries. Millions of Prius only use NiMH batteries and it was a wise choice. The future alternative in 2020 is "solid state batteries"? No one is going to invest in Tesla's giga whatever lithium battery factory when the "solid state batteries" are 3-4x more powerful than lithium ion batteries.
    27 Mar, 12:07 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    More lies from bailout, that's what happens when you copy and paste the same incorrect comments, your errors are multiplied.
    Toyota uses Lithium Ion batteries in all their plug in Prius vehicles.
    27 Mar, 09:12 PM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1584) | Send Message
     
    Here is something to read on the Toyota batteries that seems to be missing from my post.

     

    http://aol.it/1mwLI6W
    27 Mar, 10:03 PM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    JRP3 Dearest person or am I speaking to robotic comments. Nobody said NIMH is the superior battery. Yes yes yes Lithium is the superior battery when comparing energy storage. But what you don't get is the fact that the standard FULL hybrid(NIMH) from Toyota NOT the PLUG-IN hybrid far exceeds the number of units in the world than the PLUG-IN hybrid using Lithium. The NIMH is far cheaper, far more robust,easily recycled, and especially FAR SAFER than the Lithium of the plug in hybrid. And once again looking at the 85 page study of energy going to 2040 from Exxon Mobil the world will be dominated by standard gasoline, diesel, and full hybrids(not pure electrics and not plug in hybrids). You obviously don't read well nor do you understand numbers well. So as you challenge the utilities charging your pure electrics(85kilowatt-hrs of storage in Tesla)(the utilities are already challenged-referred to as Neanderthals) good luck subjecting yourself to the instability(putting it mildly)of the LITHIUM based battery. Once again Adios Amigos and Via con Dios!!!!!!! Oh Poncho/oh Cisco!!!!!
    28 Mar, 05:36 AM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    Oh JRP3 I suggest you read the June 2013 article in Car and Driver magazine about the Myths surrounding the NIMH battery and some of the comments about Lithium batteries(lithium is EXPENSIVE).
    28 Mar, 05:40 AM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1584) | Send Message
     
    Electricity prices are surging to all time highs which means Teslanomics needs a review? With the grid infrastructure crumbling in the USA, less electricity is being produced resulting in shortages during peak periods.

     

    http://bit.ly/QmVADj

     

    Note Also ... the big pile of coal in the photo. 67% of the USA electricity is produced from coal and natural gas. According to Greenpeace coal is the worst polluter on the planet.
    28 Mar, 07:52 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    Surging electricity prices? WTF? They are regulated and quite stable, my rates haven't changed in years. More lies from bailout.
    28 Mar, 09:23 AM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1584) | Send Message
     
    I guess the Consumer Price Index is lying then too? You should read the article.
    28 Mar, 09:39 AM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1584) | Send Message
     
    Battery worries for Tesla owners.

     

    Resale of Tesla vehicles could be tough when a buyer has to factor in a $10,000 dollar bill to replace the battery pack. A replacement battery pack in a Prius hybrid is only $3,000. And Tesla wants to buy back their leased vehicles for 50% of the original base price? Its a big gamble.
    28 Mar, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • LYogi
    , contributor
    Comments (2255) | Send Message
     
    better off with HFC vehicles that are set to saturate the market in 2015
    28 Mar, 11:46 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    Model S battery packs will last the life of the vehicle, and beyond. No worries at all for Model S customers. You keep repeating nonsense so often I can only imagine you are quite worried about your short.
    28 Mar, 06:03 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    By saturate the market you mean trickle in as factory supported compliance vehicles, with no place to fill up.
    28 Mar, 06:04 PM Reply Like
  • LYogi
    , contributor
    Comments (2255) | Send Message
     
    Europe is quickly moving to build a hydrogen infrastructure and the rest of the world will follow.

     

    Big Oil may try to stymie Hydrogen in the U.S. but that can't last for long.

     

    http://bit.ly/1rN1qvy
    28 Mar, 08:37 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    Big Oil loves hydrogen, and apparently you love being beholden to them.
    Hydrogen, brought to you by Shell oil:

     

    http://bit.ly/1jh7kkI
    28 Mar, 08:43 PM Reply Like
  • LYogi
    , contributor
    Comments (2255) | Send Message
     
    there you go: the beginnings of the erosion of your lack of refuelling station criticism
    28 Mar, 11:23 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    Yup, big oil controlled fueling stations, that will cost billions of dollars to create. Guess who they'll pass the costs onto? Not me, that's for sure.
    29 Mar, 09:59 AM Reply Like
  • LYogi
    , contributor
    Comments (2255) | Send Message
     
    the green-movement will force them to do it and eat the costs. They now have to compete with the promise of Tesla and I believe that to be the catalyst that will force Big Oil's hand to embrace HFCs.
    29 Mar, 10:35 AM Reply Like
  • John Bingham
    , contributor
    Comments (966) | Send Message
     
    LYogi,

     

    You really don't get it do you?

     

    The entire hydrogen fuel cell concept is driven (pun fully intended) by Big Oil.

     

    They don't have to be forced "to embrace HFCs" because it is they who are pushing it in the first place!

     

    The vast majority of hydrogen produced is from steam reformation of natural gas, and that, in turn, is the direct product of fracking. And fracking is done by, guess who? Big Oil.

     

    That process of fracking, steam reforming, compressing and finally using hydrogen in a fuel cell vehicle is not only very inefficient but also probably the most environmentally damaging and polluting process in operation on the planet today.

     

    And you really think the greens will be behind it?

     

    Looks like you've been taken in as have so many others, including our deluded governments. Yes, our wonderful British Government here in the UK has given Big Oil complete freedom to frack wherever they like.

     

    You can fool most of the people....
    29 Mar, 12:49 PM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    You can criticize big oil as much as you want, but they drive(again no pun intended) the world. Trains planes autos trucks. They may not be perfect, but they get the job done and are very innovative. You want to count on the utilities, wow YOU DON'T GET IT. to charge your electric what-evers. They are so grossly incompetent they can't get out of there own way. Wondering if you have ever heard of heard of coal burning utilities(biggest polluters in the world) ever hear of the utility NUKE disasters, ever hear of ever increasing electric rates???? And you want to depend on these IDIOTS, they have been referred to as NEANDERTHALS!!!! central power plants over poles and wires. May I ask do you live in a cave???????
    29 Mar, 01:11 PM Reply Like
  • LYogi
    , contributor
    Comments (2255) | Send Message
     
    @John

     

    I do get that. and that is why Big Oil is reluctantly being forced to give HFCs a try.

     

    However natural gas is not the only way to produce hydrogen.

     

    There are ways that are 100% renewable:

     

    http://bit.ly/1h4A76V
    29 Mar, 02:31 PM Reply Like
  • John Bingham
    , contributor
    Comments (966) | Send Message
     
    Zealot,

     

    You probably deserve one reply, but please feel free to rant all over these articles if it gives you pleasure to do so.

     

    No, I don't live in a cave. And, yes, I do use electricity from the utilities. I am not off-grid although if it was possible to be so here I would do just that. I recognize the need for a centralized power plant until such time as we can all be self sufficient in energy production, or at least have locally generated electricity.

     

    Please tell me if you use a gas generator to power your house as I assume you are totally off-grid and rely on Big Oil for your every need. I hope you realize that a gas engine, whether in a car or a generator in the basement, is way less efficient, and hence more costly to operate, than the turbines and generators used in a centralized power plant. It is also vastly more difficult to control the pollution from millions of tiny mobile gas engines than it is from a few large stationary power plants.

     

    The level of pollution, both in airborne and sub-surface damage, is far greater from a fracking and hydrogen steam reforming plant than even the dirtiest coal plant per useable kWh of energy produced. Very slowly the pollution regulations worldwide are being tightened for all power plants with the one exception of fracking to produce natural gas/hydrogen.

     

    The utilities are moving more and more to sustainable sources of energy as it is becoming very obvious that oil and gas (and coal for that matter) are becoming ever more difficult to rip out of the earth (ever hear of the Alberta Tar Sands?). If oil had not been so cheap in the past we could well have transitioned away from fossil fuels and the damage they cause decades ago.

     

    And the ICE is certainly innovative! It is little short of a miracle that it even works with all the patches and fixes that are needed to get it to deliver rotary power! Any competent engineer should marvel at its complexity, but then wonder why on earth we ever bothered to make such an unnecessarily complicated machine when there are far simpler solutions to be had.

     

    The ICE will go the way of the Neanderthals, but some may survive as a curiosity, rather like the tiny fragments of Neanderthal DNA we have in our own bodies.

     

    But as long as the ICE exists, or we can be persuaded that the HFC is a good idea, we are tied to the pump that Big Oil kindly provides for us.

     

    Ever feel that somebody's got you just where they want you?
    29 Mar, 02:34 PM Reply Like
  • LYogi
    , contributor
    Comments (2255) | Send Message
     
    Present techniques to create hydrogen from methane have only 50% of the carbon impact as fossil fuels:

     

    http://onforb.es/1ePPd0f
    29 Mar, 02:45 PM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1584) | Send Message
     
    @John

     

    I like your reasoning. So Big Oil is behind Tesla too? The majority of electricity (67%) in the USA comes from coal and natural gas. Darn it! Big oil is powering the Tesla's along with the worst polluters on the planet ... the coal guys. Natural gas ... like you say comes from fracking and like you say "probably the most environmentally damaging and polluting process in operation on the planet". And coal plants are converting to natural gas in increasing numbers. Well that is what powers the Tesla 67% of the time. So by extension the Tesla is one of the worst polluters on the planet?

     

    http://bit.ly/1nXWvbS

     

    Now you should also realize that the US electrical grid is crumbling and electricity rates are at record highs. Plus power generation is declining in the USA. Those Tesla owners are fueling a climate / economic crisis?

     

    http://bit.ly/QmVADj

     

    In the end its all the same thing. A money losing government subsidizing a money losing idea and driving a climate and economic crisis. Who is going to pay for the upgrades to the electrical grid and pay for all the pollution being created to power these EV's?
    29 Mar, 02:54 PM Reply Like
  • John Bingham
    , contributor
    Comments (966) | Send Message
     
    LYogi,

     

    This is another non-starter. If you generate electricity with a renewable resource such as wind or solar and then use it to electrolyze water you have to find some way to store that hydrogen.

     

    You can either store it at a relatively low pressure in a huge tank and then use it to run a gas generator or fuel cell on a stationary system, or you can store it at an extremely high pressure in a smaller tank for mobile use and do the same.

     

    The biggest problem for the stationary system is overall efficiency. You are using electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen and then throwing the oxygen away! The energy content of the hydrogen alone is a small fraction of the overall energy you used to get it in the first place.

     

    Pass that hydrogen through a fuel cell or use it to run a generator to get back the electricity and you lose even more energy in the process.

     

    Of course, if that energy would be wasted because of overproduction then saving even a small percentage is better than saving none at all.

     

    But if you want to use hydrogen for mobile applications, cars or boats, etc, then you also need to compress it to between 344 and 700 atmospheres pressure (up to 10,000 lb per sq inch) to get enough of it into a small space. Anything less than this and you will not have a very good range on one tankful. The pumps needed to reach that sort of pressure use a lot of power, plus you need heavily reinforced tanks to hold the hydrogen safely in a car or boat. These are not the sorts of things you can pick up at your local hardware store.

     

    Now there is a further loss in efficiency because of the energy intensive compression process. Just hope that you don't have any leaks as well - H2 is the smallest molecule in the universe and can find its way through a very tiny gap. Plus, it is explosive in air at only 4% concentration, ignites from the smallest spark and burns with a near invisible flame.

     

    In either stationary or mobile applications it is much more efficient and way safer to store the electricity in a battery where it is already in the form in which you need it!
    29 Mar, 03:41 PM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    You too deserve a reply. Your answer was thoughtful unlike most or a good part of the replies on this podium of sorts. Several pts. the nimh battery in most hybrids worldwide is basically a fuel cell with anode and cathode rearranged, so in essence it is a HYDROGEN based battery with water based electrolyte. No I do not live off the grid, but have been involved with solar PV for approx 30 yrs and advanced batteries including lithium and NIMH for about 25 yrs. Have driven in pure electrics, hybrids, and HYDROGEN powered ICE varieties. The hybrids as the Toyota Prius make the most sense and are most cost effective. Run H2 in the ICE of the Prius WOW, been there done that. ICE will not disappear any time soon. Electrolysis of water via solar PV or off peak power from nukes or other power plants. Store the H2 as a solid Hydride in reusable cylinders that can be easily transported(large cylinders) and very safe. NIMH (large) battery years ago was shorted completely(crowbarred) then put into burning gasoline(hot battery) nothing happened. Base Nickel very plentiful, very recyclable into everything and Lanthanum(rare earth) again very plentiful. All can be used across the board NIMH battery, nickel based fuel cell, solid hydrogen storage and substrate for solar cell. Why so so much emphasis on DANGEROUS Lithium I will never know. The brave new world is upon us which includes DISTRIBUTED SOLAR (50 Gigawatts this yr alone). Royal Dutch Shell of any co has their handle around everything, H2,oil gas,PV, Hydrogen. They GET IT!!!!!!
    29 Mar, 04:03 PM Reply Like
  • John Bingham
    , contributor
    Comments (966) | Send Message
     
    bailout, LYogi and Zealot - are you related? :-),

     

    Thanks for the replies.

     

    I'm no expert on power plants but there is certainly enough energy available, with care, to run any number of EVs.

     

    Surprisingly it does not need more plants and may also reduce pollution. The reason is that most of our energy usage today is in the daytime but we still need some at night. So there are two types of power plants, the baseload plants and the peakers. Baseload plants provide pretty much a continuous output and are generally very efficient, while the peakers can ramp up and down to give the varying output needed at different times of day. Unfortunately the peakers are generally nowhere near as efficient as the baseload plants.

     

    As most people charge their EVs at night this helps to even out the differences between day and night supply, so it will become possible to replace older and less efficient peaker plants with the more efficient baseload plants as more EVs are used. Hence lower overall pollution even with fossil fuel plants.

     

    If the utilities then start to use battery storage to further even out the loads we could eventually have only baseload plants.

     

    Tesla is using this already in some of the superchargers (typically 1 MWh in each station) and load leveling "battery farms" are already in use in some places. These will be more and more necessary as we move towards renewables as the sun only shines in the daytime and wind can be very variable in nature. Geothermal gives a more constant supply.

     

    SolarCity, another Musk venture, can provide battery backup for a household solar array to enable you to be virtually independent of the grid as well. If you're grid tied then your small battery (along with many others in the neighborhood) can further help the utilities to be providing only baseload power.

     

    I would personally like to see local grid tied battery storage at a street or block level. That would allow every small area to be a load leveling site for the utilities, and with home solar or wind connected there would be battery backup for many days even in a full blackout, or if the utilities need to make repairs and take the area offline. There would even be enough stored power to charge each household's EVs! With more household solar we could even decommission some of the big utility plants!

     

    Yes, Zealot. I know all about the sorry story of Texaco/Chevron and Panasonic's NiMH automotive batteries. I even have a copy of Panasonic's 1998 EV-95 flyer showing the technical details of their batteries. I also researched a small project for Stanford Ovshinsky, but not one concerning his batteries. He was an amazing character and worked on many projects.

     

    I feel that there is a place for many different chemistries and NiMH could certainly have its own position again in the future. Sad that it is the forgotten man of batteries - except for the ubiquitous AA cell. Sanyo/Panasonic have certainly nailed that one!

     

    For you, bailout: If a Tesla car runs exclusively from a fossil fuel powered station it still produces less pollution than an equivalent gas car. Very simply because the power station is more efficient than a gas car and it's a lot easier to control its emissions. That's true even when you take transmission losses into account. And you may be very surprised at how many Tesla owners also have solar PV!

     

    I would love to see a complete end to fossil fuel usage and I'm sure that it will happen one day. Unfortunately I'm probably too old to live to see that day, but I can dream. :-)
    29 Mar, 05:39 PM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    Stan O was a dear dear friend and mentor,NIMH battery,Fuel cell regen type, amorphous si solar, phase change memory, etc. Stan was clearly one of a kind. The NIMH was not lost Toyota(through Prime Earth Energy/Panansonic) make it for their hybrids and others. Germany through Cobasys/R.Bosch and Ovonic battery through BASF along with China through Hunan Corun New Energy, all above control the NIMH. This technology like all battery technologies will get better with time(look at Lead acid still around after 150 years). This country has had a love affair with LITHIUM now for years and years and billions upon billions of $$$$$$$$$$$. In the transportation world where do we stand 7-8 million hybrids worldwide with NIMH(fires explosions not an issue.) Lithium a couple of hundred thousand maybe vehicles(leaf-Volt-Tes... and the result problems. Add to that the difficulty Boeing has had and other issues presently I leave to the imagination. The lithium battery itself may not be too expensive but the battery management system is very very expensive!!! So very much of his technologies live on to this day, as above NIMH and areas like PCM phase change memory through INTC/MU/IBM/SAMSUNG. Back to NIMH yes it is the forgotten man, but I ref Car and Driver magazine June 2013 edition which CLEARS the myths of NIMH very nicely. With hydrogen and fuel cells, also synthetic fuels GTL will pave the way for Diesel hybrids whose MPG will astonish all.
    30 Mar, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    Why so angry zealot? Afraid your Tesla short isn't going to work out for you? I've been riding the Tesla Tidal Wave quite successfully for a few years now.
    28 Mar, 06:10 PM Reply Like
  • 1980XLS
    , contributor
    Comments (3333) | Send Message
     
    Few years?

     

    The stock did essentially nothing 'till Q2 2013
    28 Mar, 07:12 PM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1584) | Send Message
     
    Ya nothing happened until March of 2013. JRP3 has been wrong on just about everything .... maybe he owned some other stock? but it certainly was not TSLA.
    28 Mar, 08:19 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    I first bought in around $24 so it's "been doing something" for quite a while.
    28 Mar, 08:45 PM Reply Like
  • LYogi
    , contributor
    Comments (2255) | Send Message
     
    and now you have the chance to buy into BLDP when they are trading in their adolescent phase. Ballard is about to reveal to their world how in demand their technology has the potential to be.

     

    Global, clean, cheap, service-free, power:

     

    http://bit.ly/1l5yZVR

     

    amongst other applications.
    28 Mar, 11:26 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    BLDP, sure, take a look at their 20 year chart. We've heard this song before, it doesn't end well.
    29 Mar, 10:01 AM Reply Like
  • I need a bailout
    , contributor
    Comments (1584) | Send Message
     
    @LYogi.

     

    I bought BLD for a buck in my speculative holdings. It popped up to $9 and back down to $4.60. I sold half along the way for a huge gain but now wondering if BLD only trades with PLUG. If PLUG moves they carry BLD with it OR does BLD have its own gusto for some reason? I live in the most expensive city in North America right near the BLD HQ. BLD may be similar to TSLA in that they have game changing technology but have lost money for the past 10 years? Its a crap shoot but I'm hanging on with free money.
    29 Mar, 02:14 PM Reply Like
  • LYogi
    , contributor
    Comments (2255) | Send Message
     
    I'm with you only I haven't sold yet....I think the best is yet to come as the technology finally becomes cost-efficient.

     

    It is bothersome that it moves up and down with PLUG but once Ballard announces its own initiatives in telecom, auto, aviation, backup power then it should decouple and overtake PLUG.
    29 Mar, 02:33 PM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    JRP3 As stated before you never listen to others. Read my lips I don't short stocks, all I do is collect dividends of which Tesla pays none. Watch the wonderful marriage GM buys Tesla and they both go up in SMOKE!!!!! Two hype machines joined at the Goverment altar.
    28 Mar, 08:19 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    I see, you're just spamming these articles with no actual skin in the game. I'll just mark your posts as the irrational ramblings of a zealot and ignore them.
    28 Mar, 08:47 PM Reply Like
  • Zealot
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    "Stupid is as stupid does", Forrest Gump. Boy are you S-----!!!! Good night Irene and Via con Dios Amigos going down the road in your LITHIUM powered chariot.
    29 Mar, 01:16 PM Reply Like
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