Arizona warms up to Tesla Motors

Tesla Motors (TSLA) will be allowed to sell directly to consumers in Arizona after a bill is approved in the state covering the issue.

House Bill 2323 allows automakers in the state to sell vehicles outside the dealer network if they only make electric vehicles and have a service center in the state.

Arizona is one of the states in consideration for Tesla's Gigafactory.

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Comments (37)
  • wwt17
    , contributor
    Comments (543) | Send Message
    Tesla Motors (TSLA) will be allowed to sell directly to consumers in Arizona after a bill is approved in the state covering the issue....


    It's about time some of these state "officials" pull their heads out of really tight, dark and smelly orifices.
    20 Mar 2014, 07:24 AM Reply Like
  • phxcrane
    , contributor
    Comments (763) | Send Message
    Why only electric cars?
    20 Mar 2014, 08:56 AM Reply Like
  • Keith_69
    , contributor
    Comments (177) | Send Message
    Yeah my thought. they should replace only electric with Tesla. But money talks and Musk has money so he will have the politicians.
    20 Mar 2014, 09:27 AM Reply Like
  • 3D Investing
    , contributor
    Comments (1552) | Send Message
    "Why only electric cars?"


    Because the politicians would lose all funding from the auto dealers if they allow every type of vehicles. This seems like a compromise. Realistically, sales of EV doesn't even affect any dealers right now. It shouldn't make any significant impact until 2010. By then, it would only erode maybe 2%.
    20 Mar 2014, 11:13 AM Reply Like
  • chipdoctor
    , contributor
    Comments (2617) | Send Message
    Phxcrane -- Not just EVs, maybe Tesla is working on the new compressed air driven Mach 1 (which could further increase the stock price) as this is truly a car for the general public. At least Ford thought so.

    20 Mar 2014, 01:09 PM Reply Like
  • stootch
    , contributor
    Comments (7) | Send Message
    ev's have a small fraction of the number of moving parts, many repairs are "plug and chug," and teslas rock (drove my brother's). these may not actually be the reasons, but they'll do.
    20 Mar 2014, 01:25 PM Reply Like
  • lithium2014
    , contributor
    Comments (11) | Send Message
    Might it impact sales of the Chevy Volt and the Nissan Leaf??
    20 Mar 2014, 01:26 PM Reply Like
    , contributor
    Comments (1071) | Send Message
    It's about time Arizona wised up for Tesla to sell directly, I am absolutely sure they want that Giga Factory between their borders rather than someone elses borders, besides Arizona is the right place, Arizona is the perfect place to have that Giga Factory.
    I lived in Tuscon for 9 years and I can tell you the Sun is relentless out there, 95 out of 100 days the Sun comes up in the east and settles in the west everyday, without a cloud in the sky.
    I know that Arizona has the power of the Sun, Arizona is called the land of the Sun, plus they have plenty of empty desert to build it, (AS LONG AS THEY RELOCATE THOSE BEAUTIFUL SAGUARO'S AND OTHER CACTUS WHERE THE FOOTPRINT OF FACTORY IS GOING) plus the desire and need to build it there.
    If they build it WEST of the city of Tucson, I don't see the factory failing, and once more it's close enough to Fremont California to where the Model S, X, and E batteries will be needed..........GO TESLA...........
    21 Mar 2014, 10:22 AM Reply Like
  • sailorguy1
    , contributor
    Comments (52) | Send Message
    House Bill 2323 allows automakers in the state to sell vehicles outside the dealer network if they only make electric vehicles and have a service center in the state.


    Wow, Talk about knocking out competition. Tesla should go on the front burner and say companies that make ICE and BEV should have to decide which they want to sell. Then close down those that try and sell both types of vehicles. Bye Bye Ford, Honda, Toyota .........
    Good thing Tesla is above the pettiness of the dealer network.
    Now we will see people screaming about what is fair.
    It's great to think future generations may be able to avert some health problems with the advent of clean energy being used.
    I still prefer to go to a gallery and buy on line.
    20 Mar 2014, 07:24 AM Reply Like
  • chipdoctor
    , contributor
    Comments (2617) | Send Message
    Sailorguy 1 -- do you understand that an EV takes much more energy to produce than an ICE vehicle? Also, since we (USA) use coal for about 50% of our electric production, the EV is not as clean as most are lead to believe.


    If Tesla wants to be "green" then they need to place the gigafactory in AZ where they can utilize solar energy for the creation of the li-ion battery (major amounts of power for this).


    Solar panels on your home to charge your Hybrid (40 mile EV range) is the greenest choice for the world today.
    20 Mar 2014, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1918) | Send Message
    1. The US grid is less than 40% Coal.


    2. The energy requires to make the EV battery in the Tesla is comparable to the energy in 400-750 gallons on gasoline. Argonne life cycle study


    3. That number in 2 often cited uses really old data. So in reality, probably alot less that that number.


    4. In the PHEV you still have that engine, still have that little bit of precious metals in the catalytic convertor


    5. Depends on your commute, btw, do you work nights, because technically you are just displacing energy for day in the PHEV or have a battery back-up and are off grid?


    6. There are ways that in can be green, both EVs and PHEVs. Please familarize yourself with peakload and baseload power plants.
    20 Mar 2014, 07:03 PM Reply Like
  • videomagik
    , contributor
    Comments (59) | Send Message
    Exactly why Elon Musk is 85% owner of Solar City... which makes both solar panels as well as storage batteries for home use.
    20 Mar 2014, 08:17 PM Reply Like
  • chipdoctor
    , contributor
    Comments (2617) | Send Message
    Hi Dan,


    Sorry for the rough values. Yes, you are correct than current consumption is <40%, though we are still around 68% for coal/gas.


    And we both agree that it takes some energy to produce the battery, a good argument for placing the gigafactory in AZ.


    And yes, I am a bit familiar with peak and base load power plant usage. If you are as well, then you will realize the concern (especially in higher end neighborhoods) about stressing the system when many of these EVs are plugged in at the same time. Neighbor transformers are not sized for this level of peak demand (even in the middle of the night when solar power does not work that well).


    You could argue (and I would agree) that an EV can help smooth power plant demand production by supplying power from their battery pack in peak times (3-7 pm) and make the whole grid more efficient (as peak demand production is less efficient and more reliant on fossil fuels).


    Until that time when EVs are used to balance load/demand, the best solution remains as a 40 mile plug in hybrid (110V charging simple, no stress) with a higher efficiency generator (I would like to see the Wankel improved for this as it size and reliability are perfect for this application).
    21 Mar 2014, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1918) | Send Message
    The specific case of the transformer overloading is a weird and specific case (very poor neighborhood planning). Consider a central AC unit and an electric stove. Just checked mine, actually you run both of those and you pull about the same amount of energy as a Tesla S while charging.


    Typically your largest draw for a neighborhood is going to be between 6 PM and 8 PM. EV charging may come in at 1 AM - 5 AM


    Yes, 37% Coal, 30 % NG, 19% nuclear, and the rest either renewables or insignificant.


    So let's calculate it based on that EIA data- These are around Savocool et al's numbers (Life cycle assessment)
    0.37 @ 1000 grams CO2 /kwhr
    0.30 @ 460 grams CO2 /kwhr
    0.33 @ ~0 grams CO2 /kwhr


    SAE test is 0.32 kwhr per mile (includes battery losses), include the 7% transmission losses would be a grand total of 0.34 kwhr/mile


    That equals 178 grams CO2 per mile; or 0.38 lbs CO2 per mile


    Now let's look at a normal car
    burning 1 gallon of gasoline emits ~19.6 lbs of CO2
    BUT- keep in mind we did a full Life cycle assessment on that other part so you have to account of that- common number is between 16% and 25% of the energy used to deliver/refine/produce the gasoline is wasted- Let's use 20% since that is a nice middle of the road number out of that range
    19.6/ (100%-20%)= 24.5 lbs CO2 released per gallon


    So now let's back calculate the comparable mpg of a car needed to match a Tesla Model S


    24.5 lbs gal^-1/ 0.38 lbs mile^-1


    sorry for the unit issue it doesn't really let me express the unit analysis correctly. Any rate- you wind up with miles per gallon. gallons goes at the bottom, miles unit goes to the top.
    You need a 64 mpg equivalent car to get the same emissions- well, that is 14 mpg better than a Prius.


    Also, the Argonne study did a pretty good job with the battery life cycle analysis- Essentially, it takes roughly 24000 kwhr to make a Tesla like battery 85 kwhr battery. BUT keep in mind that used extremely old Cobalt life cycle data (nothing wrong with it, just prefer it would be more up to date) and they did not account for any recycling.
    If recycled and recycled correctly, this could potentially cut down the life cycle energy by a significant amount, and when I say significant, I mean 20-80%. Of course it is inappropriate to do an LCA on such an early product since the entire "cradle to grave life cycle assessment" is unknown and it is even more inappropriate to compare it to a mature product where we know everything is known and using "recycled" materials.


    The most appropriate life cycle assessment would be using all virgin materials for both and doing it with a predicted end of life. (Unfortunately the auto industry would cry foul because of the platinum and palladium in the catalytic convertor would cause a huge hit and we really don't know exactly the lifespan of an EV like a Tesla (but can assume longer due to lack of moving parts))
    22 Mar 2014, 07:28 PM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1918) | Send Message
    Well, that is good for both Tesla and new entrants. Huge advantage


    Completely horrible for the pre existing players. Saddled with dealerships- not good for them.


    Following entrenched players dilemma, but this just took a turn for the worse for the entrenched players. That is how it starts, chipping away at the foundation.
    20 Mar 2014, 07:39 AM Reply Like
  • papita
    , contributor
    Comments (425) | Send Message
    gee, how surprising that Arizona, in line for consideration for the Giga Factory, will allow Tesla to surpass the dealership way of doing business. Not that I'm against it.
    20 Mar 2014, 07:56 AM Reply Like
  • dcharletta
    , contributor
    Comments (38) | Send Message
    Arizona seems to be courting Tesla for the Gigafactory competition... the chances of Texas winning just went down.
    20 Mar 2014, 07:57 AM Reply Like
  • Overanalytical
    , contributor
    Comments (1241) | Send Message
    Regardless it's stupid that we won't let them in. I've already emailed my congresslady about it. (HB 3351)
    20 Mar 2014, 09:38 AM Reply Like
  • chickensevil
    , contributor
    Comments (743) | Send Message
    I actually don't approve of this method of doing things, because we will just be back around fighting stupid laws for one reason or another in 50 years... Why can't they write a law that just fixes the problem itself, instead of making a law that favors one (currently) small sector.


    The better law would be you can sell directly to consumers if you don't have a franchise in the state. Ideally of course the law would be that you can do either freely and however you want... But if, that's a big if, there is merit to have the protectionist laws toward dealerships then that would be the better option.
    20 Mar 2014, 08:07 AM Reply Like
  • kiran1506
    , contributor
    Comments (9) | Send Message
    This is some great news. Its about time other states start thinking like AZ
    20 Mar 2014, 08:09 AM Reply Like
  • omarbradley
    , contributor
    Comments (966) | Send Message
    i agree. hopefully New Hampshire is next as they have no sales tax either.
    20 Mar 2014, 08:15 AM Reply Like
  • chipdoctor
    , contributor
    Comments (2617) | Send Message
    Sheriff Joe agrees!
    20 Mar 2014, 12:10 PM Reply Like
  • billjb
    , contributor
    Comments (2) | Send Message
    I guess it is no surprise that New Jersey, home of the nations most corrupt politicians, decided to make it illegal for Tesla to sell direct to consumers. Upholding an outdated law that serves only Automobile Dealers Association. Citizens of NJ should ask their elected officials to expain how this law benefits the general population. Uncover the truth, that only corrupt legislators benefit from the campagin contibutions they recieve from ADA.
    20 Mar 2014, 09:28 AM Reply Like
  • Dan Fichana
    , contributor
    Comments (1918) | Send Message
    Yep, as a NJ resident.. Well let me just say I am disapponted in the last 25 years of governors.


    Think the last "good governor" for NJ was either Thomas Kean or Brendon Byrne.


    That is pretty bad. Hate to day it, but NJ voters are not given a good choice in any case.
    20 Mar 2014, 10:14 AM Reply Like
  • lithium2014
    , contributor
    Comments (11) | Send Message
    Agreed. Kean may have been NJ's best Governor in our lifetime. Light years better than Christie.
    20 Mar 2014, 01:26 PM Reply Like
  • chopchop0
    , contributor
    Comments (5218) | Send Message
    AZ has some pretty crazy legislation at times, but this makes a lot of sense compared to the crap coming out supposed republican places like TX and the governor's office in NJ.
    20 Mar 2014, 09:48 AM Reply Like
  • Anton Wahlman
    , contributor
    Comments (4241) | Send Message
    This begs the question: What will Arizona do if it does NOT get the factory? Declare war? Issue hunting licenses?
    20 Mar 2014, 10:50 AM Reply Like
  • Cassina Tarsia
    , contributor
    Comments (662) | Send Message
    When money speaks legislators listen! ... the new Gigafactory has lots of potential money for Arizona but it is sure that Elon would not even consider Arizona if they were still banning the sale of their electric car ... thus the new bill allowing Tesla to sell its cars in Arizona. Amazing, isn't it ... ?
    20 Mar 2014, 11:31 AM Reply Like
  • DanoX
    , contributor
    Comments (3507) | Send Message
    And corrupt.
    20 Mar 2014, 02:52 PM Reply Like
  • arondaniel
    , contributor
    Comments (1813) | Send Message
    Corrupt? An additional incentive to to do the right thing is pretty far from corruption.
    20 Mar 2014, 10:39 PM Reply Like
  • surferbroadband
    , contributor
    Comments (5139) | Send Message
    Why limit the direct selling to only electric cars? Allow direct selling for all vehicles.


    If you are gonna do it, then go all the way.
    20 Mar 2014, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • Tom Incorporated
    , contributor
    Comments (337) | Send Message
    Dealers think they have a role to play in managing mass recalls and servicing cars, and they may be right when it comes to internal combustion engine cars. Electric cars are another story though, as Elon Musk specifically mentioned in his blog post last week.


    This bill that has been passed in Arizona not only encourages existing car manufacturers to transition their models to all-electric and therefore advance our weening off of ICE cars, but it also allows the Teslas of tomorrow [ie new manufacturers] to set up shop in a similar vein to Tesla – unlike Washington who basically aren't giving any startup auto company a chance. I think it's fantastic news and I hope other states follow suit.
    20 Mar 2014, 12:31 PM Reply Like
  • juicejack
    , contributor
    Comments (88) | Send Message
    Money always talks. Politicians always listen. Sometimes they even make the correct decision.


    You go Arizona. I take back some of what I've thought about your politicians. Some, not all.
    20 Mar 2014, 01:14 PM Reply Like
  • frerickson
    , contributor
    Comments (6) | Send Message
    It's all about the battery gigafactory. This could eliminate Texas from the competition since you still can't buy a Tesla in Texas.


    The world is changing. Tesla is Car 2.0. Drive one (I've driven several) and you will change your entire perspective on automobiles.


    People who make their living providing ICE related services (oil changes, routine service, brakes, etc.) should be figuring out how to morph to take advantage of the tidal wave on their beach. It's only a matter of time and battery technology now...
    20 Mar 2014, 01:26 PM Reply Like
  • DanoX
    , contributor
    Comments (3507) | Send Message
    Don't worry T-Ass will pass a law before the end of the year.
    20 Mar 2014, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • ewmpsi
    , contributor
    Comments (1697) | Send Message
    Arizona got on the train to the future, who's getting on next?
    20 Mar 2014, 05:15 PM Reply Like
  • ewmpsi
    , contributor
    Comments (1697) | Send Message
    Perhaps the state of NY!
    Meet The Politician Who's Fighting For Tesla In New York
    21 Mar 2014, 02:22 PM Reply Like
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