Seeking Alpha

Wal-Mart sues Visa for $5B over swipe fees

  • Wal-Mart (WMT) accuses Visa (V) of setting excessive swipe fees in violation of antitrust laws, and wants $5B in compensation.
  • The suit comes a week after an appeals court upheld a Federal Reserve-imposed $0.21 cap on debit card swipe fees, in spite of retailer opposition.
  • Wal-Mart, Target, and others opposed a $5.7B swipe-fee settlement covering suits from dozens of retailers, arguing the deal won't prevent fees from rising down the line.
  • Wal-Mart also accuses Visa and its bank partners of "perpetuating the use" of relatively fraud-prone magnetic stripe cards in lieu of more secure chip/PIN technology (widely used in Europe).
Comments (65)
  • ChuckXX
    , contributor
    Comments (1011) | Send Message
     
    WALMART IS THE "EPITOME OF A PLAY YARD BULLY THAT CONTINUALLY THROWS HIS WEIGHT AROUND AND PICKS ON ALL THE OTHER KIDS. THEY ALL HATE HIM WITH A PASSION AND WOULD LOVE TO SEE HIM MOVE TO ANOTHER SCHOOL.
    27 Mar, 05:17 PM Reply Like
  • therealevan
    , contributor
    Comments (144) | Send Message
     
    Is all caps lock really necessary...
    27 Mar, 11:19 PM Reply Like
  • june1234
    , contributor
    Comments (2492) | Send Message
     
    I wouldn't call Visa a bullied kid, they do have a history with playing games with fees; not the first time someone has gone after them over it; pay the fines, settle, cost of doing business
    28 Mar, 08:44 AM Reply Like
  • Dirty Capitalist
    , contributor
    Comments (132) | Send Message
     
    they had a settlement with the majority of the retailers, but Walmart didn't like it and is now trying to upset it and go back to litigating. Personally, I like walmart, but this is beginning to make me rethink it.
    28 Mar, 10:53 AM Reply Like
  • Cincinnatus
    , contributor
    Comments (3336) | Send Message
     
    Dirty, they don't have a settlement with a majority of retailers. They have a settlement with a majority of small retailers at best. The big-box retailers like Target and Walmart aren't going along, as they have more clout. If you're a small going guy against Visa, JP Morgan etc. you have nearly nil leverage. These couldn't be expected to do anything other than cave in.
    28 Mar, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • Dirty Capitalist
    , contributor
    Comments (132) | Send Message
     
    Respect your comment, but actually, I think they had a majority with both number of retailers AND the amount of dollar spend volume, proving a lot of larger retailers are on board with it too (besides Walmart and Target, of course).
    My main gripe with Walmart is they are big enough that they could disrupt the system if they wanted, but they are just whining.
    29 Mar, 10:16 AM Reply Like
  • BAHAMAS1
    , contributor
    Comments (1791) | Send Message
     
    Hey walmart, you don't add to your top & bottom lines , nor try to make up for "weather" for bad quarterly performance by suing others.

     

    You have to EARN those $$.

     

    P.S. walmart - You've been putting Mom & Pops out of business for decades by your aggressive practices. How does it feel ?
    27 Mar, 05:24 PM Reply Like
  • Transcripts&10-K's
    , contributor
    Comments (681) | Send Message
     
    "P.S. walmart - You've been putting Mom & Pops out of business for decades by your aggressive practices. How does it feel ?"

     

    Did Wal-Mart force consumers to come to their stores? Blame the people who stopped going to the "Mom & Pops"...
    27 Mar, 06:43 PM Reply Like
  • Stone Fox Capital
    , contributor
    Comments (5756) | Send Message
     
    funny b/c all of those pay for those excessive fees by higher costs while V enjoys a 60% operating margin. Isn't very clear that the fees are excessive?
    27 Mar, 10:58 PM Reply Like
  • rjroberts
    , contributor
    Comments (129) | Send Message
     
    "Did Wal-Mart force consumers to come to their stores? Blame the people who stopped going to the "Mom & Pops"..."

     

    Did you ever consider????.... the fact that many county commissioners and city counsel persons across the country have given the "hen house" to Walmart, Home Depots and other big-box stores through their land gifts and sales-tax rebates for years to do in the Mom & Pops!

     

    This is a complicit crime of all of society!
    28 Mar, 12:36 AM Reply Like
  • Cincinnatus
    , contributor
    Comments (3336) | Send Message
     
    rj,
    How about the real reason you don't like Walmart? Most county commissioners and city counsels that I know of have done everything legal and otherwise to keep the big-box stores out, Walmart in particular. Politically it's an easy sell to be against Walmart. Of course the real enemy is the riff-raff that Walmart attracts. The elite urbanites that these politicians pander to don't like lower-income folks showing up in their neighborhoods. Correct?
    28 Mar, 12:43 AM Reply Like
  • june1234
    , contributor
    Comments (2492) | Send Message
     
    Yeap agree and the mom and pops now work at Wmart.
    28 Mar, 08:57 AM Reply Like
  • Marek
    , contributor
    Comments (612) | Send Message
     
    Riff-raff? Aren't there several studies showing that 96% of people have been in a Walmart recently? Yes, there are.
    28 Mar, 09:36 AM Reply Like
  • CerpherJoe
    , contributor
    Comments (32) | Send Message
     
    Love Walmart. Trust busting!
    28 Mar, 09:44 AM Reply Like
  • Dirty Capitalist
    , contributor
    Comments (132) | Send Message
     
    If the fees were THAT excessive, I think Walmart would have used some of their incredible resources years ago to do a payment network themselves. And yet they haven't.
    28 Mar, 10:55 AM Reply Like
  • positivethoughts
    , contributor
    Comments (1809) | Send Message
     
    Walmart doesnt put mom and pop shops out of business. When Sam's Club opened up in my city, I was able to buy inventory for my retail store at a lower cost (in some cases) than from other suppliers and sell it at a cheaper price than Walmart did to their customers.

     

    Essentially, Sam's Club was helping me beat Walmart on prices for the same items. That is not predatory at all.
    28 Mar, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • Joe Lunchbox
    , contributor
    Comments (349) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/npevuK

     

    end of story.
    28 Mar, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • Cincinnatus
    , contributor
    Comments (3336) | Send Message
     
    Marek, you missed my point completely. I was replying to rjroberts. The riff-raff don't frequent the swanky high-end retail developments that the politicians and their benefactors (developers, high-end retailers, and clientele) push for, and they really aren't wanted by the folks that can afford to reside in or near these high-end urban zones.

     

    The irony here is the true Mom and Pop stores only persist to any degree in the very areas where they've allowed the Walmarts to go in, which are the lower-income, older, small strip-mall type areas.
    28 Mar, 11:44 AM Reply Like
  • BAHAMAS1
    , contributor
    Comments (1791) | Send Message
     
    Transcripts-
    walmart did it by putting stores everywhere and slashing prices so low no one else could compete. I understand how business works and why walmart did it.

     

    However, when something happens that walmart perceives is injurious to their profit$, they turn around and sue.

     

    Mom & Pops didn't have that costly luxury !
    27 Mar, 06:57 PM Reply Like
  • Transcripts&10-K's
    , contributor
    Comments (681) | Send Message
     
    "However, when something happens that walmart perceives is injurious to their profit$, they turn around and sue."

     

    Would you mind making a short list of other notable lawsuits Wal-Mart has filed and won that you seem so perturbed by? Who have they sued that led to their eventual domination as a retail giant?

     

    And if they have nothing to do with the Mom & Pops, as is the case here, then what exactly is your point? There appears to be no connection between the two things that you're talking about; if your argument is that WMT beat its competitors by offering more convenient locations and better prices (large and small alike), I agree.

     

    I look forward to your response.
    27 Mar, 07:23 PM Reply Like
  • Marek
    , contributor
    Comments (612) | Send Message
     
    So you are in favor of tort reform. you can't sue for some things, that's what you want to see. Right? Me too.
    28 Mar, 09:37 AM Reply Like
  • chopchop0
    , contributor
    Comments (3122) | Send Message
     
    Wmt is more than welcome to not accept visa cards.... I guess they don't like getting bullied by their partners lol lol lol. Karma baby.

     

    Long v and wmt but hoping v prevails
    27 Mar, 07:30 PM Reply Like
  • eagle1003
    , contributor
    Comments (1485) | Send Message
     
    Visa card charges are ultimately paid by the consumer. I wish all retailers would offer discounts to those that pay cash but that will never happen because credit cards allow customers to over spend without thinking.
    27 Mar, 08:42 PM Reply Like
  • Snoopy1
    , contributor
    Comments (1100) | Send Message
     
    Do you really pay with cash for things you buy? I rarely carry cash these days as credit cards are much more efficient unless you enjoy going to an ATM and writing checks and balancing your checkbook.

     

    Some people do use credit cards to spend money they don't have, but I imagine WMT's sales would suffer is only cash was used. WMT mgmt are bullies trying to get money from others to cover up their incompetence at growing sales and profits.
    27 Mar, 09:34 PM Reply Like
  • Marek
    , contributor
    Comments (612) | Send Message
     
    "credit cards allow customers to over spend without thinking"

     

    Exactly. Phony lawsuit over an excessive fee. Only good for the attorneys who will take one third after many millions in legal fees. Tort reform needed, less lawyers. Consumers carry cash and shut up. Retailers take the cards or shut up and offer discounts for cash or shut up.

     

    Cash is safer (ironically) now anyway.
    28 Mar, 09:43 AM Reply Like
  • Dirty Capitalist
    , contributor
    Comments (132) | Send Message
     
    about half of the interchange is now paid back to customers in rewards or cash back. I earn about $1.50 back for every hundred I spend on average, but when retailers got a break on debit card interchange, how much of hte promised discounts due to cost savings did I (we) see? Zero! Zilch! I guess they forgot once the Durbin legislation passed. Home Depot bragged to investors the interchange legislation was going to boost profits, not save customers money.
    28 Mar, 10:59 AM Reply Like
  • citizenleung
    , contributor
    Comments (235) | Send Message
     
    Wal-Mart is looking for ways to make up for lost food stamp money. Suing Visa made the cut.
    27 Mar, 09:06 PM Reply Like
  • psychological-dividends
    , contributor
    Comments (561) | Send Message
     
    Ah, yes. We can't successfully grow the top line or bottom line organically. We must sue to make up the difference.
    27 Mar, 09:15 PM Reply Like
  • Marek
    , contributor
    Comments (612) | Send Message
     
    Funny, I was just about to say the same about Visa's excessive fees.
    28 Mar, 09:49 AM Reply Like
  • BAHAMAS1
    , contributor
    Comments (1791) | Send Message
     
    "blame the people who stopped going to mom & pops".
    WOW

     

    Suggest you read citizenleung and chopchop0 comments above.

     

    I also suggest you re read my posts.
    If you do, you wouldn't have made your comments.

     

    Btw, I own wmt and V and also hope V prevails here.
    27 Mar, 09:16 PM Reply Like
  • akendzio
    , contributor
    Comments (12) | Send Message
     
    $5B? Do you take Visa?
    27 Mar, 09:22 PM Reply Like
  • BAHAMAS1
    , contributor
    Comments (1791) | Send Message
     
    YES.
    27 Mar, 11:03 PM Reply Like
  • TAS
    , contributor
    Comments (1983) | Send Message
     
    I suspect the WMT bashes on this thread are really, really upset that a large company can actually use the court system to request justice.

     

    Is it only progressives and union thugs that can use the courts and selective judges to mug folks who run afoul of these little Stalins?

     

    We need more corporations fighting back instead of lying down and licking the boots of extortionists such as (maybe) Visa and (definitely) the likes of the Jesse Jacksons.
    27 Mar, 11:14 PM Reply Like
  • Snoopy1
    , contributor
    Comments (1100) | Send Message
     
    The court upheld the Fed's reduced fees so this seems to be a clear case of sour grapes because WMT wants to pay less for transaction fees just like when it squeezes suppliers of Tide, Oreos and every other product they buy. It's tough to squeeze a legal semi-duopoly and WMT just can't accept that they can't push V around.

     

    If WMT doesn't like paying the fees, they shouldn't accept V or MA.
    27 Mar, 11:18 PM Reply Like
  • Cincinnatus
    , contributor
    Comments (3336) | Send Message
     
    Snoopy,
    It's just not practical, and indeed the feds and the banks like it that way. They can track an electronically based economy much better than one with predominately paper/coin transactions.

     

    There's no way the fees need to be that high just to move electrons around. Keep in mind that $350 billion that went to Visa, JP Morgan, etc. ultimately came out of the pockets of consumers. Where Walmart and Target (and all retailers) have an interest in this is that if they are able to get some of the loot back from Visa and the banks and into consumers' pockets, then those consumers will have more to spend on goods at the retailers. So the question in the end is do you want more of your money going to Visa and the banks to move electrons around, or more going to goods that you can make use of?
    28 Mar, 12:14 AM Reply Like
  • Snoopy1
    , contributor
    Comments (1100) | Send Message
     
    Cincinnatus,

     

    I'm pretty sure that retailers can give cash discounts so why doesn't WMT try to give this "excess fee" back to the consumers?
    28 Mar, 01:04 AM Reply Like
  • chopchop0
    , contributor
    Comments (3122) | Send Message
     
    "I'm pretty sure that retailers can give cash discounts so why doesn't WMT try to give this "excess fee" back to the consumers?"

     

    Because, as we all SHOULD know, this is NOT about consumers, and it is about Wal-mart taking those fees and padding the bottom line with them.
    28 Mar, 09:22 AM Reply Like
  • Transcripts&10-K's
    , contributor
    Comments (681) | Send Message
     
    "Because, as we all SHOULD know, this is NOT about consumers, and it is about Wal-mart taking those fees and padding the bottom line with them."

     

    Let's use actual math instead of conjecture. From fiscal 1998 through fiscal 2014, Wal-Mart reported a net profit margin between 3% and 4% every single year. For every dollar of sales that WMT generated in that period, they made $0.035 in profit.

     

    Consumers have consistently seen the benefit of lower prices, and rewarded Wal-Mart with their business (that's why sales per store have nearly doubled to ~$67 million per store in the US over that same period). Wal-Mart has then lowered prices to maintain that same level of profitability, in order to continue a virtuous cycle of low prices for end consumers (it has worked).

     

    It's good business, and customers know that the company is using their scale to offer the lowest prices possible; if you don't care about low prices, you are free to go shop at another retailer and pay more for the same products.
    28 Mar, 09:46 AM Reply Like
  • chopchop0
    , contributor
    Comments (3122) | Send Message
     
    "Let's use actual math instead of conjecture. From fiscal 1998 through fiscal 2014, Wal-Mart reported a net profit margin between 3% and 4% every single year. For every dollar of sales that WMT generated in that period, they made $0.035 in profit."

     

    And nothing in your statement suggests that these savings would be passed along to consumers.
    28 Mar, 10:04 AM Reply Like
  • Transcripts&10-K's
    , contributor
    Comments (681) | Send Message
     
    "And nothing in your statement suggests that these savings would be passed along to consumers."

     

    If your margins are unchanged - as is the case with WMT - that means you've passed along any savings gained - in this case, to Wal-Mart shoppers; otherwise those gains would flow through to the bottom line - to the net margins figure I mentioned. The gains have to go somewhere; in this case, they're going to the consumers.

     

    If you take some time looking at the basic math of financial statements, you will start to understand how this works.
    28 Mar, 10:23 AM Reply Like
  • Cincinnatus
    , contributor
    Comments (3336) | Send Message
     
    "I'm pretty sure that retailers can give cash discounts so why doesn't WMT try to give this "excess fee" back to the consumers?"

     

    How are they going to give back a fee that's going to Visa and the banks?

     

    This makes about as much sense as you asking me to "give back" what you paid in taxes to the IRS. Not gonna happen.
    28 Mar, 11:50 AM Reply Like
  • NUNAY the KING
    , contributor
    Comments (193) | Send Message
     
    Why is it that visa,mc, etc can't provide smart cards? IMHO it's time for these guys to step up and provide a more secure card and help prevent all of the theft going on. Why is it every other advanced country on the planet can manage to do it and third world USA can't figure it out? Does it take too much money out of the big boys pockets?
    27 Mar, 11:18 PM Reply Like
  • faustius
    , contributor
    Comments (461) | Send Message
     
    Monopolies have no need to innovate, only collect rent.
    28 Mar, 12:44 AM Reply Like
  • Joe Lunchbox
    , contributor
    Comments (349) | Send Message
     
    >Wal-Mart also accuses Visa and its bank partners of "perpetuating the use" of relatively fraud-prone magnetic stripe cards in lieu of more secure chip/PIN technology (widely used in Europe).<

     

    The last I heard, V and MA are working on coming up with a usable system to use. It can't be done overnight. There's a huge infrastructure that will have to be changed.

     

    http://reut.rs/1hgItwA

     

    >MasterCard and Visa had already set a deadline of October 2015 for U.S. retailers to adopt the new payment technology.<
    28 Mar, 01:21 AM Reply Like
  • joeeckhardt
    , contributor
    Comments (136) | Send Message
     
    Lets not forget the cards have been tested for many years and the RETAILERS have said they don't want them because they don't want to pay the cost to upgrade the tech.
    28 Mar, 09:45 AM Reply Like
  • Dirty Capitalist
    , contributor
    Comments (132) | Send Message
     
    In short, they are, but the retailers don't want to pony up for the updated readers.
    Also, remember Target was looking at smart cards years ago, but dropped the program because the check out takes a few seconds longer. Guess now they are rethinking that decision.
    28 Mar, 11:03 AM Reply Like
  • Cincinnatus
    , contributor
    Comments (3336) | Send Message
     
    Yet another reason to like Walmart. I really don't understand what motivates Visa to continue to enable fraud. It's a drag on the economy and weakens small businesses who have to absorb these loses and can ill afford to. They either need to fix this or start jailing the Visa execs.
    27 Mar, 11:55 PM Reply Like
  • chopchop0
    , contributor
    Comments (3122) | Send Message
     
    For being too innovative? Sheesh The electronic payment networks created by financial tech companies like V and MA have done wonders for business overall in terms of revenue and sales. The data bears this out....

     

    Restaurants, in particular, appreciate it: http://on.wsj.com/1dSNwiz
    28 Mar, 12:51 AM Reply Like
  • Cincinnatus
    , contributor
    Comments (3336) | Send Message
     
    Too innovative? Was plastic just invented?

     

    How about some continuous innovation? Like come up with something at least once every couple of decades? Is that too much?

     

    Did you even bother to click the link in the text? There's absolutely no technical reason why Visa can't do much, much better to address fraud. As faustius said above the problem is monopolies have no need to innovate, they would prefer just to sit back and collect rent.

     

    "Why is the US a decade behind Europe on 'chip and pin' cards?"
    http://bit.ly/1iG43dY
    28 Mar, 01:06 AM Reply Like
  • Snoopy1
    , contributor
    Comments (1100) | Send Message
     
    Cincinnatus,

     

    If V and MA don't provide what you consider necessary fraud protection, other companies will step in to fill this need. That's not happening because V and MA have a hard-to-duplicate network that they built so they can do whatever they want. If you don't like it, pay cash.

     

    If the banks thought it would be an easy fix, they would force V and MA to institute these fraud protections since banks are the ones who absorb these writeoffs. I think a lot of retailers won't upgrade their systems to accept smart cards since they don't take responsibility for fraud. The banks can pay for the upgrades if they want to reduce fraud losses.
    28 Mar, 01:10 AM Reply Like
  • chopchop0
    , contributor
    Comments (3122) | Send Message
     
    ""Why is the US a decade behind Europe on 'chip and pin' cards?"

     

    MA and V are providing incentives I believe to retailers and banks to make that move. It is NOT their fault that retailers haven't spent the money to upgrade their systems.

     

    My understanding is that in a few years, at least for MA, they will make retailers pay fraudulent charges if they are still using the old stripe system instead of the chip system.
    28 Mar, 09:23 AM Reply Like
  • joeeckhardt
    , contributor
    Comments (136) | Send Message
     
    BECAUSE THE RETAILERS DON"T WANT THEM. Don't believe the lies. These cards have been around for over a decade but the retailers will not spend the money to upgrade.
    28 Mar, 09:46 AM Reply Like
  • Cincinnatus
    , contributor
    Comments (3336) | Send Message
     
    "If V and MA don't provide what you consider necessary fraud protection, other companies will step in to fill this need."

     

    No. They can't. That's why the card issues have to do this, as they've done in Europe.
    28 Mar, 11:52 AM Reply Like
  • rajaji
    , contributor
    Comments (7) | Send Message
     
    One big bully hitting on other bully - Enjoy the show guys, hopefully the bully's go away and the little ones get to have more fun. ( aka I don't like Visa or Walmart and the consumer should rule)
    28 Mar, 02:46 AM Reply Like
  • moo4240
    , contributor
    Comment (1) | Send Message
     
    Most Mom and Pop retailers deserve to go out of business when Wal-Mart comes to town because of their high prices, indifferent service and short store hours. Come on now...........this is the 21st century, not the 19th century. Show me one person that doesn't shop for the best deal on a new car!
    28 Mar, 05:34 AM Reply Like
  • Joe Lunchbox
    , contributor
    Comments (349) | Send Message
     
    I only buy union-made American cars. I will not shop at WalMart. I hate to send my money to China. I will spend a little more to buy American-made products if I can find them.

     

    People that buy the best deal regardless of where they are made are slowly destroying this country dollar by dollar and cent by cent.
    28 Mar, 11:50 AM Reply Like
  • User 509088
    , contributor
    Comments (929) | Send Message
     
    walmart is only one of the cores of the malaise the economy currently faces. low wages means a mass market without a mass- in other words, a weak market. perqs and payoffs from local and state gov'ts mean it's a welfare recipient.

     

    I'd say it was those large chain grocery stores which did in moms and pops.

     

    walmart did more than that. walmart induces junior magnates to phantasize they are miser potter, when America needs more George baileys.

     

    versus credit cards, of all things, two creations of the late 20th c. like mothra vs. Godzilla.

     

    walmart vs. credit cards, a fitting battle for this new world's order.

     

    28 Mar, 07:35 AM Reply Like
  • ChuckXX
    , contributor
    Comments (1011) | Send Message
     
    If Walmart doesn't like the Visa fees why don't they just simply not accept the card anymore. There are lots of places that won't accept my American Express. It doesn't bother me I just don't do business there anymore. Walmart could do the same thing with Visa and Mastercard for that matter. I look at this lawsuit as extortion and nothing more.
    28 Mar, 09:14 AM Reply Like
  • Joe Lunchbox
    , contributor
    Comments (349) | Send Message
     
    I think WalMart would love it if they could get into the banking/credit industry.
    28 Mar, 11:54 AM Reply Like
  • BAHAMAS1
    , contributor
    Comments (1791) | Send Message
     
    I don't believe walmart joined the original class action suit.

     

    Now they want their "own special justice".
    Doesn't work that way wmt !

     

    Maybe, just maybe this suit will be dismissed simply on the basis of its underlying reason, i.e. GREED.

     

    If wmt doesn't like the swipe fees then don't accept V & MA . But at the same time be prepared for customer loss which will definitely happen.

     

    Can't have it both ways wmt .
    28 Mar, 09:42 AM Reply Like
  • Cincinnatus
    , contributor
    Comments (3336) | Send Message
     
    Bahamas,
    You're engaged in knee-jerk WMT bashing. WMT may be the point on this, but they're joined by other big-box retailers such as Target and Home Depot. That just doesn't fit with your elitist narrative, so you ignore it.
    28 Mar, 11:55 AM Reply Like
  • Marek
    , contributor
    Comments (612) | Send Message
     
    " I look at this lawsuit as extortion and nothing more. "

     

    So are the fees.
    28 Mar, 09:51 AM Reply Like
  • BAHAMAS1
    , contributor
    Comments (1791) | Send Message
     
    Then don't use the cards.
    28 Mar, 10:06 AM Reply Like
  • BAHAMAS1
    , contributor
    Comments (1791) | Send Message
     
    cincinnatus-
    First-re read my posts,slowly so you can understand them.
    I also own wmt as I stated.

     

    Yeah, I really understand why target is involved in any lawsuit they can make themselves party to.
    They need all the $$ they can get after they screwed up on their credit card debacle (which, BTW, is Still not over), and have lost thousands of customers who may never return.
    I'd check on your Home Depot comment.

     

    Also, your indictment of me being an elitist is very far from the truth and unfounded, but I hope it made you feel better for the name labeling.
    Cheap comment.

     

    Solution for you:
    If you have them ,Don't use V nor MA cards again.
    28 Mar, 12:11 PM Reply Like
  • Galactic Cannibal
    , contributor
    Comments (15) | Send Message
     
    The PIN credit card system used in Europe is 100 times more fraud protectant that our US 70's credit card swipe technology. Its a like the 70"s technology that Boeing still uses in their 777 aircraft. and when they disappear into the ocean they cannot find the downed aircraft.
    Get up to date with technology America. WE are sliding way behind except when it comes to guns -n- bullets.
    28 Mar, 02:29 PM Reply Like
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