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Greece forks over €18B to recapitalize its four largest banks, allowing them to regain...

Greece forks over €18B to recapitalize its four largest banks, allowing them to regain access to ECB funds after the central bank refused to backstop the illiquid banks last week.
Comments (32)
  • bixbubba
    , contributor
    Comments (233) | Send Message
     
    18B here and 18B there, and pretty soon Greece is going to be out of euros.
    28 May 2012, 06:29 PM Reply Like
  • JohnLocke
    , contributor
    Comments (381) | Send Message
     
    Funny that the ECB through its "Emergency Liquidity Assistance" Fund makes it possible for Greece to backstop more Euro by borrowing funds from the ELA.

     

    Pure Kabuki theater...
    28 May 2012, 06:30 PM Reply Like
  • birdmaestro
    , contributor
    Comments (128) | Send Message
     
    Leading to Kabukimono....
    28 May 2012, 06:49 PM Reply Like
  • untrusting investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9955) | Send Message
     
    The trail of funding seems to be somewhat unclear. EFSF issues bonds to raise money. EFSF lends proceeds to Hellenic Stability Fund. HSF then gives money to 4 Greek banks probably in return for shares to be issued and convertible bonds which they hope to sell later to recover money. Meanwhile Greek individuals and business keep withdrawing savings and deposits they have in Greek banks.
    28 May 2012, 07:30 PM Reply Like
  • wyostocks
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    So, let me get this; the people are screwed and the bankers get off scot free with more bucks to bang.
    Fu*#ing unbelievable.
    28 May 2012, 08:05 PM Reply Like
  • Papaswamp
    , contributor
    Comments (2198) | Send Message
     
    Wonder if they use the same accounting practices as in Spain?
    http://bit.ly/JxvR50-€41-million-€33-billi...
    28 May 2012, 08:27 PM Reply Like
  • mike mohr
    , contributor
    Comments (451) | Send Message
     
    I bet Ben helped a little bit too!
    28 May 2012, 08:32 PM Reply Like
  • JohnLocke
    , contributor
    Comments (381) | Send Message
     
    I'm sure the ECB is still running off of the 700 Billion Backstop provided by the US Central Banking cartel.

     

    (I refuse to use the term" FED" as it implies some tie to the government in some official capacity.)
    28 May 2012, 09:53 PM Reply Like
  • DettoTheSecond
    , contributor
    Comments (32) | Send Message
     
    Bullish--1400+ in the near future! 1700+ by election day!
    28 May 2012, 08:33 PM Reply Like
  • 2MuchDebt
    , contributor
    Comments (219) | Send Message
     
    What a waste and a joke. It's like burning money.
    28 May 2012, 09:08 PM Reply Like
  • suryan
    , contributor
    Comments (174) | Send Message
     
    This classic example of right hand left hand. Let's say u had 10 usd in ur right and ten in ur left. The left spends it's money the right hand now gives ten to left hand and the left hand uses this loan as collateral to borrow for outside sources.

     

    All in all these guys just start writing numbers into the books and inflating money supply. They don't bother printing anymore gees!! Can you imagine printing all this? Instead it's easy to write a number with many zeros. This is going to end in tears. Ppl still can't understand why banks are needing all this capital, I mean hasn't Greece borrowed more than what it produced in few years. God save us all
    28 May 2012, 09:51 PM Reply Like
  • X-terminator
    , contributor
    Comments (89) | Send Message
     
    Stop now or lose more money and future of your countries.
    29 May 2012, 01:33 AM Reply Like
  • Dr. V
    , contributor
    Comments (1179) | Send Message
     
    Blockade of Greek ports and shipping lanes, levy a tax on shipping.

     

    Can't pay / won't pay, ship & it's contents seized.

     

    Give them 72 hrs to capitulate, can't / won't?

     

    Boatload auctions to highest bidders, revenue used to pay back ECB.

     

    Grow a pair.
    29 May 2012, 03:16 AM Reply Like
  • Losing Paper While Gaining ...
    , contributor
    Comments (497) | Send Message
     
    The only Doctor I've ever heard of who thinks you *can* get blood from a stone.

     

    People buying their bonds deserve to get burnt. It's the only way they learn.
    29 May 2012, 03:44 AM Reply Like
  • wyostocks
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    Dr V

     

    And if that doesn't work, what then? How about NATO spring into action.
    29 May 2012, 07:55 AM Reply Like
  • Dr. V
    , contributor
    Comments (1179) | Send Message
     
    Gents,

     

    With all due respect, this is about Economics, please put the ideology down.

     

    Any time a large corporation enters into insolvency, you have an "onsite" Manager, (Administrator) to preside over any bankruptcy protection or subsequent capitulation. We ALL know this.

     

    This was the flaw in the Troika's fiendish plan. Greek Ministry of Finance should have been suspended, and EC / EU / EBA / ESRB should have set up shop under European Supervisory Authority, full stop. If that's "financial occupation" then it is. I choose to call it risk management.

     

    You NEVER throw more money at a losing position, EVER.

     

    TIP:
    You NEVER give out that sum of money without having an "onsite" Manager attached to it, reporting to you daily.

     

    The shipping comment is what it is.

     

    If Greece is offended, what will they do?

     

    Go on strike?

     

    No wait, already did that 7568 times.

     

    It was actually, neither intended to side with Greece, nor the Union of German States.

     

    NOTE:
    Getting blood from a stone has nothing to do with my academic achievements, it's rather a cultural thing.

     

    "If the rich could hire the poor to die for them, the poor would make a very nice living." - King Solomon

     

    Shalom.
    30 May 2012, 07:39 AM Reply Like
  • Losing Paper While Gaining ...
    , contributor
    Comments (497) | Send Message
     
    I agree, it is about economics. Which is why I wonder why you would ignore that and advocate the introduction of force (blockades) on a people who just aren't learning about deficits (hence my blood from a stone comment) and for investors who won't learn about risk in investing? There's nothing to gain at this point.

     

    Let the economics of a default speak for themselves. No use of force of blockade/taxation/debt to bail out those who took a risk and lost.

     

    Before you're so quick to advocate the use of force, consider what would happen if the same were to happen to your country.

     

    Imagine you had politicians who promised your countrymen unicorns on your dime, then expected you to be on the hook for that. (Many reading this site are in exactly that situation). In time these promises will either have to be paid for, or the defaults happen.

     

    I introduced no ideology whatsoever in my comments. What I *am* doing is suggesting you allow the economics to speak for themselves, in place of your advocacy of blockades and whatever might follow those, which you never elaborated upon.
    30 May 2012, 08:15 PM Reply Like
  • Dr. V
    , contributor
    Comments (1179) | Send Message
     
    Be clear.

     

    No use of force was mentioned, nor ANY use of force being advocated.

     

    Read the comments. I ask you again, do not apply your ideology, to my comments.

     

    It's about economic accountability. Greece must be held accountable, OR suffer the economic consequences they have imposed upon themselves through financial irresponsibility, lack of business ethics, and in-action regards deadlines imposed, in exchange for funding.

     

    In-action is also an action, of one's own volition. No one forced them into their current economic situation. It is purely a result of their irresponsibility.

     

    Greece is an EU Member State, as such, the European Commission can step in and impose their will upon Greece, per their membership agreement, at any time. EBA has the power and authority (granted by EC) to seize ANY bank in Europe, without warning or notice, write that down.

     

    History shows us that a blockade of key strategic ports and / or railways is indeed quite economic. This is taught in the US after the 3rd Grade in Elementary school. Boston being the example.

     

    A blockade is specifically designed to prevent the passage of trade goods, & supplies, commonly referred to as an "economic blockade". This is usually imposed to achieve a desired result.

     

    Foreign ship management companies which run their shipping fleets from Greece are currently EXEMPT FROM ALL GREEK TAXES ON PROFITS PROVIDED:

     

    - They obtain a special permit from the Economic Ministry and the Mercantile Marine Ministry.
    - They import a minimum of USD50,000 annually to cover their office running costs.
    - They place a USD10,000 bond with the Government.

     

    Tell me again this is not "economic"?

     

    If Greece refuses to fly straight, they should be cast off and forgotten. That goes for ANY EU State who cannot follow the program as prescribed by the European Commission, who call ALL the shots under European Supervisory Authority.

     

    Germany should also be cognizant of this fact.
    31 May 2012, 04:15 AM Reply Like
  • Losing Paper While Gaining ...
    , contributor
    Comments (497) | Send Message
     
    What do you think a blockade is if not a use of force? It requires a navy to be successful. Are you really that blinkered? You advocate force while I advocate burning the bondholders and Greeks via currency means.

     

    You sound like you're quite happy to send people to fight to save the same banks who were stupid enough to buy Greek debt. Let them burn for their mistakes and lets not bail them out this time.
    31 May 2012, 05:55 AM Reply Like
  • Dr. V
    , contributor
    Comments (1179) | Send Message
     
    I repeat, I am in no way advocating the use of force in any blockade scenario, however Rules of Engagement are standing and may be enforced, IF any such situation arises. When attacked, defend. nature of the beast.

     

    A show of authority, is not a use of force. As a former Military Commander, I am probably more aware of that than most.

     

    If you do not agree, that's fine, and it is your right to do so, I respect that.

     

    BLOCKADES:
    Until 1827, blockades were always a part of a war.

     

    * HOWEVER, this changed when France, Russia and Britain came to the aid of the Greek rebels against Turkey.

     

    They blockaded the Turkish-occupied coast, which led to the battle of Navarino. War was never declared, however, so it is considered the first pacific — i.e. peaceful — blockade.

     

    The first truly pacific blockade, involving no shooting at all, was the British blockade of the Republic of New Granada in 1837, established to compel New Granada to release an imprisoned British Consul.

     

    I have never advocated the use of force in this Greek economic scenario of suggesting a blockade. You know as well as I do, it will be Greece themselves who use force to fight against it.

     

    I agree the banks (Deutsche Bank, chiefly among them) who were stupid enough to buy Greek Debt, should indeed go face down, and we hope they (banks who bought debt) do not recover from this mess.

     

    All I am saying is Greece shouldn't get a pass here.

     

    They need to submit to the EC's authority, and do what they agreed to do when they accepted membership into the Union, and signed the documents into effect. They are on the hook and must be held accountable.

     

    We don't need another Germany, who were reset to zero four (4) times in the last 100 years, and just walked away from their debt responsibilities. No more debt forgiveness, accountability.
    31 May 2012, 09:43 AM Reply Like
  • Losing Paper While Gaining ...
    , contributor
    Comments (497) | Send Message
     
    It's still a use of force if you prevent them from trading using a Navy.

     

    Maybe no bullets are fired, but that's like me pointing a gun at your head, demanding you hand over your wallet, and then me claiming it's not force because I didn't shoot you. How can you not see this?
    1 Jun 2012, 02:42 AM Reply Like
  • Dr. V
    , contributor
    Comments (1179) | Send Message
     
    Some how you keep calling upon violence by remarks like, "gun to your head", "bullets fired", " hand me your wallet".

     

    Read your words again, mine are completely devoid of violence which you continue to invoke in an attempt to put your spin on my words.

     

    I no longer teach law, so last time here.

     

    Principle of Proportionality, is a political maxim which states that no layer of government should take any action that exceeds that which is necessary to achieve the objective of government (Regardless of intent of objective).

     

    NOTE:
    It is a fundamental principle of European Union law*.

     

    * According to this principle," the EU may ONLY act to exactly the extent that is needed to achieve its objectives, and no further", full stop.

     

    This principle has underpinned the European Communities since their inception in 1957. In the presently applicable primary law, the principle of proportionality is clearly formulated in the third paragraph of Article 5 of the Treaty establishing the European Community as follows:

     

    "Any action by the Community shall not go beyond what is necessary to achieve the objectives of this Treaty."

     

    The prevention of Greece trading is decided , enacted, and enforced through Article 5 of the Treaty establishing the European Community, even IF a Navy may or may not be present, in a role as observer, it is indeed European Supervisory Authority enforcing the law, not a Military force.

     

    4 Jun 2012, 05:04 AM Reply Like
  • Losing Paper While Gaining ...
    , contributor
    Comments (497) | Send Message
     
    I've tried to simplify it with every comment. Here's it boiled down even more:

     

    Blockade (your words) = Navy = military = force of weapons

     

    If it still doesn't get into your head with that then really, I have no idea how I can make it any simpler.
    4 Jun 2012, 07:27 PM Reply Like
  • Dr. V
    , contributor
    Comments (1179) | Send Message
     
    You may need to have it simple so you can understand it, I certainly need no explanation.

     

    A blockade has nothing whatsoever to do with a Military action, it is economic in it's simplest and purest form. In one of the most effective blockades in history, the US effectively shut Cuba down, no naval battles.

     

    NOTE:
    As explicitly recognized by an official report drafted by the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO), published in November 2007, the blockade against Cuba is the most comprehensive set of economic sanctions imposed by the United States of America of all the 20 sanction programs it has applied to various countries, not a single shot fired, nor any warlike actions taken.

     

    The analysis contained in the document drafted by the Permanent Secretariat of SELA “Follow-up report on the application of the Helms Burton Law. 2007 – 2008”
    (SP/CL/XXXIV.O/Di N° 11 - 08) presents a detailed description of the impacts of the blockade on various economic sectors of the Republic of Cuba, as well as the extraterritorial nature of some of the measures and provisions adopted in this connection by the United States of America.
    5 Jun 2012, 06:14 AM Reply Like
  • Losing Paper While Gaining ...
    , contributor
    Comments (497) | Send Message
     
    No one except the US cares about Cuba. Anyone else can come or go from cuba without any restrictions. That's not a blockade in any true sense of the word.

     

    Anyway, I'm done wasting my time trying to explain this to you. Bye.
    5 Jun 2012, 06:34 AM Reply Like
  • Dr. V
    , contributor
    Comments (1179) | Send Message
     
    I do not wish to argue the point either. I understand the point very clearly, and have offered several examples in support of my position. I think we can agree to disagree. I did however, have a call asking if I mistakenly meant "embargo", which I indeed did not. I am quite aware of the difference between the two.

     

    Many laypeople often mistake absolute authority for military force, something which it is not, yet we see most continue to argue the point, "ad nauseam", we do get your point, and see the John Locke t-shirt from here.

     

    Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter sets out the UN Security Council's powers to maintain peace.

     

    It allows the Council to "determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression" and to take military and nonmilitary action to "restore international peace and security".

     

    THEORETICALLY SPEAKING:
    In this case, the "threat to peace" being, Greece acting in defiance of Article 42, Chapter VII of UN Charter, by refusing to submit to sovereign governing authority, in this case (European Supervisory Authority) by boarding and searching commercial ships for goods being illegally transported, as mentioned and identified by the authority, known as "contraband", would result in those ships being seized.

     

    Nobody ever made mention of raiding vessels and scuttling them after bogarting their stores.

     

    Article 42:
    Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations. This of course would ONLY be in the event of Greece's refusal to submit to the authority of the EC, seen as self inflicted, if you will. ANY country's refusal to submit to authority COULD be met with force, IF the situation escalates to that point.

     

    They simply do not board ships and beat people to death for no reason, this is not Somalia.

     

    Force would ONLY be used in a situation where it is deemed necessary IAW whatever Rules of Engagement were agreed upon, by the Authority in question. Just like force MAY be used by local Police in a situation where it is necessary, but we don't call the Police "soldiers", nor are their actions see as "acts of war", this is only a liberal ideology which fights authority in any form.

     

    I suggest a refresher course in Law & Policy, as a good starting point.
    5 Jun 2012, 10:09 AM Reply Like
  • Debutant
    , contributor
    Comments (2250) | Send Message
     
    "HOWEVER, this changed when France, Russia and Britain came to the aid of the Greek rebels against Turkey".

     

    Thus began and continues the Greek mentality "Let others fight, work, or pay for me".
    31 May 2012, 10:21 AM Reply Like
  • kmi
    , contributor
    Comments (4031) | Send Message
     
    The Euros came to the aid of Greece after the outcome had pretty much been decided.

     

    Navarino didn't decide the outcome of the Greek revolution but the Euros showing up effectively confirmed Greece as an independent entity.

     

    Pretty much like when the French assisted the US during its revolution. But maybe I should let you continue to wallow in ignorance so you can embarrass yourself with such comments as "Thus began and continues the Greek mentality "Let others fight, work, or pay for me"
    31 May 2012, 10:44 AM Reply Like
  • Debutant
    , contributor
    Comments (2250) | Send Message
     
    "Embarrass myself"? Really?

     

    I have zero debt, perfect credit record, cash on hand, physical assets, highest reliability/credibility in social and business circles around me. My financial/economic future does not depend on handouts from the Troika. I do not need forgiveness or haircuts on my (non-existent) debt.

     

    "Embarrass myself"? In a world where Greece is not embarrassed of its own actions which led to its failure yet blames it on everybody else and asks for more money and/or debt forgiveness? Ha!
    4 Jun 2012, 01:08 PM Reply Like
  • wyostocks
    , contributor
    Comments (8088) | Send Message
     
    debutant
    "credibility in social and business circles around me."

     

    Not that I care any, but you also have an overly inflated ego.
    4 Jun 2012, 04:58 PM Reply Like
  • Debutant
    , contributor
    Comments (2250) | Send Message
     
    Now that my earlier "indirect" description (with the words "I, me, my,...") of Greece, its ways and historic (and ongoing) dependency on external help and support was not clear for some, here below the same paragaraph on Greece in "direct" way:

     

    Greece has huge debt, awful credit record, no cash on hand, few valuable physical assets, no reliability/credibility in social and business circles around itself. Greece depends on handouts from the Troika. Needs forgiveness or haircuts by its creditors on its huge debt.
    -------------------------

     

    Oh yes, anyone and his brother who can get a mortgage from the local bank and can be trusted by his neighbors "has more credibility than Greece nowadays in his/her social and business circles around them".
    5 Jun 2012, 06:47 AM Reply Like
  • Dr. V
    , contributor
    Comments (1179) | Send Message
     
    What is "egoistic" about Debutant's comment?

     

    If he has "credibility in social and business circles around him", that is merely a supporting statement, and hardly egoistic, and he should frankly, be quite proud of that.

     

    And if you don't care, why mention it?

     

    Any time someone says something positive about themselves, they have an ego problem?

     

    Asleep or absent during Philosophy 101?
    5 Jun 2012, 10:23 AM Reply Like
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