More on the Apple-Samsung verdict: Samsung (SSNLF.PK) has been ruled guilty of infringing...


More on the Apple-Samsung verdict: Samsung (SSNLF.PK) has been ruled guilty of infringing additional Apple (AAPL) patents via more than a dozen devices. The jury has also ruled Samsung's infringement of 5 patents was willful (could produce multiple damages), that its parent company induced subsidiaries to infringe, and that none of Apple's patents are invalid. One minor win for Samsung: the Galaxy Tab is deemed innocent of copying the iPad's design. (live blog)

Comments (46)
  • wigit5
    , contributor
    Comments (4365) | Send Message
     
    glad I'm not in samsung for anything, let the appeals begin.
    24 Aug 2012, 07:03 PM Reply Like
  • Herr Hansa
    , contributor
    Comments (3130) | Send Message
     
    Damages = 1 billion, 51 million 855 thousand dollars

     

    So far that is less than what AAPL was trying to get in licensing. Interesting.
    24 Aug 2012, 07:06 PM Reply Like
  • TruffelPig
    , contributor
    Comments (4207) | Send Message
     
    1% of AAPL cash stack. Anyhow, they can buy some shares back with the money ;P
    24 Aug 2012, 07:10 PM Reply Like
  • dab3z
    , contributor
    Comments (311) | Send Message
     
    Dollar amount is less important than the overall sentiment of the jury. And that is pretty darn clear.
    24 Aug 2012, 07:15 PM Reply Like
  • Herr Hansa
    , contributor
    Comments (3130) | Send Message
     
    It is less than what Apple was looking to get initially. The bigger deal in this has to do with the patents.
    24 Aug 2012, 07:22 PM Reply Like
  • TomasViewPoint
    , contributor
    Comments (4911) | Send Message
     
    HH

     

    Agree. Cash is almost petty for Apple but the patents could be very valuable for revenue or to block Samsung development.

     

    However I would not be surprised that South Korea places a call to Washington DC next week if Samsung believes they have been railroaded (fair or not) and the judgments cannot be lived with. This escalates very quickly. Or a South Korea court rules Apple is in violation of something. The art of war knows no boundaries.
    24 Aug 2012, 07:27 PM Reply Like
  • Herr Hansa
    , contributor
    Comments (3130) | Send Message
     
    Invalidating two 3G patents that Samsung holds is a big deal. Probably many licensing deals with other companies, who will now want to stop paying Samsung for those. That's the real big item in all this.
    24 Aug 2012, 07:29 PM Reply Like
  • Herr Hansa
    , contributor
    Comments (3130) | Send Message
     
    If you divide that amount by the non-contract price of the iPhone 3G, then it would not add up to that many devices. To consider whether the award amount could be calculated against Samsung smartphone sales, or a potential licensing amount, the value per device would be even smaller. On a monetary basis, it cost Samsung less to contest against Apple, than to agree to earlier licensing requests.

     

    The real damage is those two 3G patents the jury declared invalid and unenforceable. There is probably more revenue tied to that than the damages amount. Whether the U.S. Patent Office moves to invalidate those two patents is not automatic, but further claims against Samsung by other companies could cause that to happen.
    24 Aug 2012, 07:47 PM Reply Like
  • TruffelPig
    , contributor
    Comments (4207) | Send Message
     
    So, what market is bigger? US or South Korea? War has begun; agree on that.
    24 Aug 2012, 08:03 PM Reply Like
  • Herr Hansa
    , contributor
    Comments (3130) | Send Message
     
    Rather, what markets are growing faster? The U.S. smartphone market is not growing as fast as other areas. The other thing is that this case covers old products, not new devices. We may see more lawsuits going after new devices, but it's too early to tell.

     

    The other factor which will take a while is whether the public cares about the outcome. Will consumers be more likely, or less likely, to buy an Apple or Samsung product based upon this lawsuit, or will they not care?
    24 Aug 2012, 08:17 PM Reply Like
  • KIA Investment Research
    , contributor
    Comments (13492) | Send Message
     
    What kind of war are you talking about? Samsung makes Apple chips, and LG makes Apple's Retina Display. Apple needs Korea.
    25 Aug 2012, 12:48 PM Reply Like
  • Ken Sanders
    , contributor
    Comments (308) | Send Message
     
    And now onto the appeals... Apple may never see a dollar from this... But Apple has made its point successfully, I think Google and its partners will need to watch more carefully what they clone from iOS and Apple's devices...
    24 Aug 2012, 07:28 PM Reply Like
  • raincity
    , contributor
    Comments (236) | Send Message
     
    justice is served.
    24 Aug 2012, 07:34 PM Reply Like
  • pagreen1966
    , contributor
    Comments (661) | Send Message
     
    A great day for innovation and a great day for Apple. $750 by Sept 12!
    24 Aug 2012, 07:43 PM Reply Like
  • Gaylord Daniel
    , contributor
    Comments (6) | Send Message
     
    I would like to see Samsung barred from selling (in this country at least) any device that has been determined to infringe on AAPL's patent. A billion dollars is chump change to Apple. Of course I have delighted in watching my Apple stock appreciate.

     

    Gaylord Daniel
    24 Aug 2012, 07:58 PM Reply Like
  • jerrycalpha
    , contributor
    Comments (58) | Send Message
     
    As a design engineer, I'm really disappointed with this outcome. I hope it's appealed. This does NOT improve innovation. It's to the point where one cannot design a product without a patent attorney sitting in a chair along side you. A rounded rectangle is a design patent? Give me a break. The patent system is feeling more like a subsidiary of the TBTF bankster mafia.
    24 Aug 2012, 08:18 PM Reply Like
  • Glenn Abrett
    , contributor
    Comments (2067) | Send Message
     
    The patent system is totally broken. This outcome benefits me directly. That's nice. But I don't think it is remotely reasonable. Patenting functionality is ridiculous. Patents should be for process. That is you should not be able to get a patent for a device that shines when you turn it on. You should have to get a patent for the process by which your particular kind of light bulb works. Apple and other tech companies seem to be able to get and enforce patents for specific functionality. I think because in software the dividing line between process and functionality is somewhat vague.

     

    I think this result will spell the gradual doom of Android. Good for me and my nest egg. But bad for the world at large.
    25 Aug 2012, 01:19 AM Reply Like
  • Dialectical Materialist
    , contributor
    Comments (5080) | Send Message
     
    What if I patented a lightbulb that came on when you thought of turning it on? That's merely functionality. And it would take application of existing cutting edge research into electrical brainwaves. It would also require a technical innovation to be able to read the brain waves more sensitively then is present now, and to correctly interpret the command to turn on the light.

     

    At first blush, such a space age idea sounds like a great candidate for a patent. But as soon as I manufactured it and revealed my implementation, the path forward to other companies would be much more obvious than it had been. Within two years the technology could become so commonplace that folks forget how revolutionary the process was when I came up with it.

     

    You may say that you've already accepted that my *implementation* of the device could be patented. But what if a competitor does essentially the same thing only tweaking the process ever so slightly? His implementation might be slightly different, but his result is a product that was my idea -- a light that turns on when you think about turning it on. That idea did not exist in practical form until I invented the means to do it. My competitor would argue my progress from existing cutting edge technology was (in hindsight) obvious. His lawyer might say, "I can't believe this guy thinks he invented the light switch!"

     

    And we'd have to go to court to get those issues resolved.

     

    Yes, the patent system needs to be improved but it is not "totally broken." In fact there is a great amount of very murky ground that is kept more fair to all parties by our current process of patenting inventions and calling on the courts to make rulings about overlapping ideas or nearly identical implementations.
    25 Aug 2012, 03:17 AM Reply Like
  • Herr Hansa
    , contributor
    Comments (3130) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/U0VU6E

     

    Listen to what this NYU Researcher mentions about the obviousness of the multi-touch he is showing in this TED presentation. This is from 2006. Pinch to zoom is used often in this presentation.

     

    Agree on how the patent system is broken. Using carefully crafted terminology gymnastics, nearly any attorney could come up with more patents than any engineer, simply by taking everyday intuitive movements and restating them as more encompassing software patents. This is the world the legal profession has created.
    25 Aug 2012, 03:24 AM Reply Like
  • Glenn Abrett
    , contributor
    Comments (2067) | Send Message
     
    You are right. I, like always, resort to often to hyperbole. The patent system in America is one of the key reasons America remains the land of innovation. And being able to protect patents in court is the centerpiece. And no, it is not totally broken.

     

    But it has a lot of trouble with software. Software tends to be both a process and a specific function. The process (if you have source code) is easily duplicable with similar but not exactly the same code. So it is very hard to patent process. Therefore you want to patent function. But this leads, I think, to patents that are overbroad and that tend to stifle rather than encourage innovation.

     

    Software as the central source of value in the world has simply exploded onto the scene in the last decade or so and the laws have not kept up. I guess this is, somewhere, a good thing as it means that the growth in technology has accelerated sharply in recent years. But
    25 Aug 2012, 11:16 AM Reply Like
  • Dialectical Materialist
    , contributor
    Comments (5080) | Send Message
     
    glennvirt I agree that software is a weak area for patents. Amazon was actually able to defend it's "one click ordering" patent, and when I heard about it, I thought they'd be toast. Talk about an obvious implementation from the coding point of view. Yet the patent stood. Just as there are "design patents" as a separate kind of patent with their own implications for enforcement, there should probably be a category for "software patents" with a special set of rules about what you are actually patenting.

     

    And now, unfortunately, it seems that DNA patents will be upheld as well -- at least initially. This gets into another whole area of twisted.

     

    The patent process is flawed. But one way we have of mitigating these flaws is the judicial process. At the very least they can cast light on how the flaws cause implications that we want to fix by legal modifications, and at best they can actually prevent some of the most nonsensical implications from sticking.
    25 Aug 2012, 12:11 PM Reply Like
  • TomasViewPoint
    , contributor
    Comments (4911) | Send Message
     
    The US patent office can issue all the patents they want but that does not bind other countries to recognize those patents. This will escalate to one of those international venues that transcends the patent office and that is political power games.

     

    Apple is really just buying time because they likely know this is a house of cards.
    25 Aug 2012, 01:13 PM Reply Like
  • Herr Hansa
    , contributor
    Comments (3130) | Send Message
     
    Exactly. This lawsuit only applies in the U.S. The next move by Apple will be attempted to get an injunction against Samsung smartphones and tablets. If a blanket injunction is issued, then Samsung would need to introduce new products to get around the injunction. Then if Apple files another injunction on the new products, Samsung would again need to develop another set of new products. Onwards and onwards, but only in U.S. markets.

     

    The other aspect is that if another company holds a patent in an overseas market that describes a function similar to a U.S. Apple patent, then that company could move against Apple in that country. There is an entire realm of patent lawsuits that can happen globally, and Apple has opened the floodgates to that. All the cost of these lawsuits will be passed on to consumers, meaning more expensive smartphones. Consumers will respond by holding onto smartphones longer, delaying purchases, or not buying smartphones. Growth in smartphones will slow at a faster pace.
    25 Aug 2012, 01:48 PM Reply Like
  • TomasViewPoint
    , contributor
    Comments (4911) | Send Message
     
    This is another version of a trade war. This could really get out of hand.
    25 Aug 2012, 06:32 PM Reply Like
  • Herr Hansa
    , contributor
    Comments (3130) | Send Message
     
    Absolutely. Patents are issued in each country. Home countries to move to grant sweeping injunctions on many imported products to protect domestic products. It would be very easy for any country to do this. As the developed world smartphone growth slows, the emerging economy smartphone growth becomes more important. Lest we forget, Apple had to pay quite a bit of money to a nearly bankrupt Chinese company in order to use the name iPad in China. I doubt a patent dispute in China would be favorable to Apple.
    26 Aug 2012, 01:47 PM Reply Like
  • Dialectical Materialist
    , contributor
    Comments (5080) | Send Message
     
    Well, we'll find out. A Taiwanese man is suing Apple claiming a Facetime patent violation.

     

    http://lat.ms/RmD2zm
    26 Aug 2012, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • TomasViewPoint
    , contributor
    Comments (4911) | Send Message
     
    The largest mobile market lies outside the US. Apple could win a battle and lose a serious war.

     

    Although I think they know that and are just buying time. Patent strategy is just a way to slow down competition and extract possible concessions or payments.
    26 Aug 2012, 07:17 PM Reply Like
  • Glenn Abrett
    , contributor
    Comments (2067) | Send Message
     
    I think, though I could be very wrong, that this win in US will push other countries, especially China, to enforce something similar. Why? Several reasons.

     

    1] China wants to shed it's image as the land of patent pirates and IP ripoffs. They want to be a 'normal' country like US and Europe.
    2] China hates South Korea.
    3] Samsung has lost huge face here. Would not be surprised if CEO is fired. Would be surprised, but not totally astonished, if he suicides. Really. CEO was personally offered a settlement on several occasions. He choose, incredibly stupidly, to fight things out publicly on apple's home turf. This loss of face has great implications in Asia and especially in China.

     

    I think Samsung will gradually be pushed out of China. Pretty good for apple but incredibly positive for NOK.
    27 Aug 2012, 11:24 AM Reply Like
  • TomasViewPoint
    , contributor
    Comments (4911) | Send Message
     
    glenn

     

    China is not interested in anyone succeeding in China that is not controlled by China.

     

    And I don't agree that China is interested in patent pirates and IP ripoffs. They don't create anything of their own so why should that be a concern. And they have bigger problems.
    27 Aug 2012, 11:44 AM Reply Like
  • Stockgal87
    , contributor
    Comments (353) | Send Message
     
    Thank goodness! Justice has been served.

     

    Hopefully, now innovation will be safe from thieves.

     

    Would love to see Samsung barred from selling in the US.
    24 Aug 2012, 08:19 PM Reply Like
  • croatkid1
    , contributor
    Comments (208) | Send Message
     
    Yes!! Now we will hear from the Judge of the penalty forbidding Samsung from selling any of these products in the U.S. for 2 or 3 years -

     

    then APPL will go to the courts in Europe and Canada seeking redress of their financial damages with corresponding penalty of baring any such Samsung sales in those areas.....
    24 Aug 2012, 08:35 PM Reply Like
  • Herr Hansa
    , contributor
    Comments (3130) | Send Message
     
    That's asinine. I've owned Apple computers for 18 years, but I would hate to ever have a situation where I was forced to buy because that was the only choice. One of the reasons for me to not buy Windows was because I wanted some choice, and Apple was there. Now you want Apple to act like Microsoft did? If that happens, then fvck Apple.
    24 Aug 2012, 08:38 PM Reply Like
  • Stockgal87
    , contributor
    Comments (353) | Send Message
     
    Not at all!

     

    Blatant copying is not good for innovation. Microsoft didn't copy the iPhone and the result is much more compelling and interesting.

     

    If Samsung got away with copying the entire industry would just copy what Apple does.

     

    Apple's ownership of their hard earned IP means other companies will need to come up with original, and possibly better designs.

     

    I believe there will be far more interesting choices when companies have to invent their own stuff. And everyone will benefit, especially consumers.
    25 Aug 2012, 02:08 AM Reply Like
  • Debutant
    , contributor
    Comments (2843) | Send Message
     
    I own Apple shares and a Samsung smartphone. Can I declare myself a winner if the former increases in value and the latter continues to function?
    25 Aug 2012, 07:10 AM Reply Like
  • KIA Investment Research
    , contributor
    Comments (13492) | Send Message
     
    @stockgal

     

    "Would love to see Samsung barred from selling in the US."

     

    Would that includes Samsung's chips (which power the iphone)?
    26 Aug 2012, 11:25 PM Reply Like
  • Ronin.
    , contributor
    Comments (1556) | Send Message
     
    Perhaps Apple should've found a hungry semi company to replace Sammy before all of this, Intel perhaps...they want into mobile pretty bad? At least Intel won't be making phones or tablets anytime soon....and using inside info to know what the competition is up to.
    26 Aug 2012, 11:40 PM Reply Like
  • KIA Investment Research
    , contributor
    Comments (13492) | Send Message
     
    @Ronin, I would love this!

     

    Long INTC
    27 Aug 2012, 02:21 PM Reply Like
  • Ronin.
    , contributor
    Comments (1556) | Send Message
     
    We may both soon end up long INTC and NOK....heh, heh

     

    ......oh wait....am I under the influence of the master?....
    27 Aug 2012, 02:30 PM Reply Like
  • The Analyst Hub
    , contributor
    Comments (54) | Send Message
     
    It was expected http://bit.ly/RKVc06
    24 Aug 2012, 08:33 PM Reply Like
  • Drobilliard
    , contributor
    Comments (12) | Send Message
     
    Strange this, American court sides with the American company. Strange how other courts don't reach that decision
    25 Aug 2012, 06:24 AM Reply Like
  • pectin
    , contributor
    Comments (6) | Send Message
     
    I like Samsung and Apple... but I believe Samsung and others copied Apple for sure. I am sure the details of the case will show that soon. Seems like all these foreign companies are coping American companies. China another one....for duplicating us
    25 Aug 2012, 05:03 PM Reply Like
  • KIA Investment Research
    , contributor
    Comments (13492) | Send Message
     
    >> "Seems like all these foreign companies are coping American companies. "

     

    To be fair, it goes both ways, like Apple copied Nokia:

     

    "“Having proven its ability to defeat Apple after the most bitterly contested patent dispute that this industry has seen to date is clear proof of” the effectiveness of Nokia’s more aggressive strategy, Mr. Mueller said. “Other companies whom Nokia will ask to pay royalties will have to think very hard whether to pay or pick a fight.”" http://nyti.ms/NEdGLu
    25 Aug 2012, 05:31 PM Reply Like
  • Herr Hansa
    , contributor
    Comments (3130) | Send Message
     
    Attorneys and lawsuits will shape and define the smartphones of the future.
    25 Aug 2012, 05:36 PM Reply Like
  • pectin
    , contributor
    Comments (6) | Send Message
     
    I am going to return the Galaxy Tab 2 I got... as updates may not happen after this court result.
    25 Aug 2012, 05:04 PM Reply Like
  • pectin
    , contributor
    Comments (6) | Send Message
     
    It is not fair that Samsung and many other companies copies US companies and then profit from there. That is why this country is falling. Apple, Microsoft etc are only the few companies left... we should try to save them no matter what.
    25 Aug 2012, 05:04 PM Reply Like
  • Imperative Ideas
    , contributor
    Comments (11) | Send Message
     
    Hang on, I need to go patent some things like the color purple. This is going to be awesome.
    26 Aug 2012, 11:29 AM Reply Like
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