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"Asian-Americans are the highest-income, best-educated and fastest-growing racial group in the...

"Asian-Americans are the highest-income, best-educated and fastest-growing racial group in the United States," the Pew Research Center wrote in recent massive study. The WSJ discusses the rise of Asian-Americans in a weekend essay, saying that they "have become the immigrant group that most embodies the American promise of success driven by will and resolve."
Comments (78)
  • And note that they don't turn to politicians to "help" them.


    Their success shouldn't be surprising. They often do what many immigrants to the US have done. Parents work and work and work to get by while emphasizing education and hard work to their children - who then go on to even greater success.


    When you substitute hard work with government dependency you don't end up with the next generation doing very well.
    28 Oct 2012, 04:23 AM Reply Like
  • >>>"have become the immigrant group that most embodies the American promise of success driven by will and resolve."<<<


    Gee what a concept... hard work and a drive to be successful... who'd a thunk? Wonder if they still get Obama phones and free healthcare? You know, because they're immigrants and everything.
    28 Oct 2012, 04:45 AM Reply Like
  • Damn, I must be an outlier then considering I'm in the lower income group, and took two attempts to pass calculus in college.
    28 Oct 2012, 05:14 AM Reply Like
  • You think your an outlier. I'm half Asian and White so I always get the rants that "your smart" from the Whites and "your stupid" from the Asians....
    28 Oct 2012, 06:47 AM Reply Like
  • You cracked me up...
    28 Oct 2012, 09:45 AM Reply Like
  • If you write "you're" instead of "your" when you mean "you are," the Asians might think you're smart too.
    28 Oct 2012, 12:59 PM Reply Like
  • opportunity vs guarantee
    the "you owe me" crowd vs the
    "get out of my way, i can do it myself"
    28 Oct 2012, 05:41 AM Reply Like
  • It's about values..
    Whether it be stats on rates/literacy or any you choose... the demographical pecking order from top to bottom is always the same.
    28 Oct 2012, 07:19 AM Reply Like
  • Bottom line:
    You are either a "maker" or a "taker" in this country.


    I prefer being a maker for it gives me more choices and opportunity.
    28 Oct 2012, 08:17 AM Reply Like
  • Stereotype, there are other minorities that have accomplished the same if not more. However the political atmosphere does not allow the media to talk about them.
    28 Oct 2012, 09:16 AM Reply Like
  • mike


    There are no restraints in this forum so who are these minorities?


    By the way the article refers to Asians as a racial group so I guess they have not asked for victim status yet. Then we will call them a minority that is put upon.
    28 Oct 2012, 11:29 AM Reply Like
  • Stereotypes are born out of generalities. Statistics like the ones cited in the WSJ article tend to be about as general as you can get - they do not tell the story of one individual's achievement.


    The statistics show that this one racial group has achieved as a group more than other groups. I can substantiate this by looking at the enrollment of my alma mater, UC Berkeley (a public school), and compare the near majority Asian American student body (43%) to the demographics of the state (13%) and the demographics of the country (5%). Asian Americans comprise more of the student body than all other minorities *combined*. There are also 30% more Asian Americans in UC Berkeley than there are whites (43% vs 33%), even though there are more than five times as many whites in California than there are Asian Americans (74% vs 13%). Asian Americans have achieved this in an era of heavily biased reverse discrimination, as unlike for other minorities, Affirmative Action actually hurts an Asian American high school student's chance to enter the college of their choice more than any other racial or ethnic group, to include whites.


    These statistics speak for themselves. The truth has been evident for a very long time. While it does not mean that every Asian American you meet is "smart" or "over achieving" - TheRepublic_Investments made a very good point below - as a group they have earned this moniker, fair and square - or with the deck stacked against them even.

    28 Oct 2012, 12:41 PM Reply Like
  • Actually I think high enrollment at Berkeley is more of a negative on the status of Asians.....


    28 Oct 2012, 01:19 PM Reply Like
  • Which minorities?


    Just for one example though, you might want to take a look at this, which shows that black immigrants are generally far more educated than native born and whites: "Their findings reveal that immigrant Blacks or Blacks with immigrant origins enroll in all postsecondary institutions at a greater rate than native-born Blacks and Whites."


    That indicates to me that "slacking" has become the US norm, and without immigrants of all types we would be in an even deeper hole.
    28 Oct 2012, 02:21 PM Reply Like
  • Ok the Berkeley comment was mainly just me talking s**t, but I feel like it is important to mention that college is not the only measure of success, or the only path to a high paying job. I know people who work in the oilfield that never even got a high school diploma and are now making 6 figures. All you need is the work ethic and reasonable intelligence.
    28 Oct 2012, 02:42 PM Reply Like
  • Good. Compared to the other hordes, Asians share the values that made America great.


    Who knows? An influx of Asians (that stay true to their culture) in lieu of other less productive immigrants, the election of Romney and the subsequent trimming down of entitlements and the federal government and improved economy, coupled with a new/different reality for the "Obamaphone" types in this country and we may actually be able to turn things around.


    My fingers are crossed.
    28 Oct 2012, 10:07 AM Reply Like
  • How about we go back to our immigration policies prior to 1965? Seems to be working great for Canada and Australia. Toronto is the most diverse city in the world....great place.
    28 Oct 2012, 10:23 AM Reply Like
  • Yes, Bret. And we need also to revert tax rates prior to 1965.....
    28 Oct 2012, 12:29 PM Reply Like
  • Would that include the same deductions?
    28 Oct 2012, 02:21 PM Reply Like
  • The notion of "minority" or "majority" is rapidly losing its cache or significance do to economic globalization. You are a "minority" or member of the "majority' only relative to where you happen to be standing or living. For example many Asian-Americans are "minorities" only because recent generations chose to move to a country founded by white people. My understanding is that "Asians" actually make up the global-majority human population. Indeed, white people are rapidly losing their position as the "majority' in this country (USA) and in many other countries that they founded. Look at Canada, with a huge land mass and relatively small population. I highly doubt it will be a majority white or European derived population in 50 years.


    If I moved to Asia I would find myself to be a minority. So In what sense am I a member of "the majority?" Only in the sense that my ancestors were the founding population of this particular country - and this notion is not going to hold up for much longer.


    As a side note, the notion "blue eyed" people have some type of inside track (as someone above suggested) in America is a joke. We are in fact a rapidly shrinking minority who will likely be a mere novelty in the not to distant future. We have always been a mere novelty outside of Northern-European derived countries and make up just a small percent of the earth's population. Maybe we should band together to get special perks? Ha ha.


    In terms of relative success, I believe white people are suffering from the problem identified in the movie "Idiocracy" Time will tell.
    28 Oct 2012, 10:41 AM Reply Like
  • > the notion "blue eyed" people have some type of inside track
    > (as someone above suggested) in America is a joke. We are
    > in fact a rapidly shrinking minority who will likely be a mere
    > novelty in the not to distant future.


    The observation you are referring to is driven by the fact (mere coincidence, undoubtedly) that whites are still the overwhelming majority in business and government leadership positions, and in higher income brackets in general.


    But don't worry, Asians will displace you soon. :-)
    28 Oct 2012, 10:54 AM Reply Like
  • Asians are more American in their thinking than many other nationalities. They work hard and value education. That is a virtuous cycle for success. They should be promoted on that basis and kick the lazy ignoramuses to the back of the bus. They will be the vitality of our economy.


    For the lazy ignoramuses however don't think the Asians will be as tolerant of your hand out begging. They come from countries where poverty is shocking and they are used to walking past it.


    Careful what you wish for.
    28 Oct 2012, 11:44 AM Reply Like
  • D_Virginia has the best comment in this thread. Those comments above are just full of hate and slurs. I thought SA wouldn't tolerate abuse.
    28 Oct 2012, 12:18 PM Reply Like
  • > more American in their thinking than many other nationalities.


    Careful, "American in their thinking" these days means reality TV, fattening food, and screwing your buddy to get ahead.


    Let's hope the Asians don't sink to the American level. ;-)
    28 Oct 2012, 12:44 PM Reply Like
  • anon


    I have been to Asia and I work with Asians and Americans ongoing. And a lot of Asians are become US Citizens so the demarcation is becoming meaningless.


    "You can't handle the truth"


    Jack Nicholson
    28 Oct 2012, 01:24 PM Reply Like
  • DV




    One thing I would note that is a bit of a concern is that corruption in Asia is more prevalent than in the US. May be hard to believe but it is true.


    It goes from the policeman on the street all the way up to the government and business leaders. And the lying on resumes is absolutely ridiculous.
    28 Oct 2012, 01:26 PM Reply Like
  • Corruption in much of Asia is almost a way of life, particularly in the pseudo-Communist ones, so it is no surprise at all.


    And it is not "now" - it has been that way for decades.
    28 Oct 2012, 02:45 PM Reply Like
  • No, in fact it is not coincidence, Virginia. Up until 1965 our immigration laws were designed to keep the USA a majority-European population. The USA was founded by Northern and Western Europeans, so the observations you make are 100% consistent with this fact and the relatively recent change to our policy. And no, it does not surprise me that some profess joy at displacing the former majority population, that is human nature.
    28 Oct 2012, 11:01 AM Reply Like
  • we definitely need to watch illegal flow of people and $$ from China, seeing it here in California and much of this is not legal!


    im hearing of hotels and other corps taking $50k payoffs for work visas etc they come in and bid up our real estate with what may be ill gotten gains from ripping off their own people


    shut the doors, no more immigration, maybe 1m/year tops
    28 Oct 2012, 11:11 AM Reply Like
  • Regardless of race or gender, the "American promise of success driven by will and resolve" tends to find those who are willing to leave excuses behind and work toward the venerable goal of achievement and success.


    It shouldn't come as any surprise that it works this way.
    28 Oct 2012, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • Not long ago, I was helping my (non-US) nephew look at a few college campuses, including living quarters, for a graduate engineering degree. As we looked at several college-dedicated apartments, I was floored by the sight of Asian engineering students living 2-per-bedroom on sleeping bags, and studying their butts off.


    Hard-working immigrants were one of THE primary drivers of our country's greatness.
    28 Oct 2012, 12:21 PM Reply Like
  • Want to see that Asian economic success in action. Walk through Flushing NY or down 8th Ave in Brooklyn, every conceivable form of business imaginable from electrical supply, restaurants, hair salons, gas stations and hotels. Contrast that with walking through Harlem where most of the businesses are still not owned by African Americans.


    That would make an interesting PBS documentary as to how that could happen where a community like Harlem that has had a predominantly black population since before WWII does not have a thriving small business base while these Asian enclaves that have sprung up in the last 10 years do.
    28 Oct 2012, 12:48 PM Reply Like
  • I came to this country with $20 in my pockets. Today I am multimillionaire. I raised two kids who are studding to top colleges. One for business and other for doctor. Both kids were national tennis players. I do not speak or write good English. But in the meeting when I speak my managers value my decision.


    How it was possible? Not because I was smart. I was hard worker and this country is land of opportunity. Worked 10 hours at office and 5 hours on kids every day for 15 years. Also I took few vacations. Now I am sitting back and enjoying. Takings lots of vacations.
    28 Oct 2012, 12:50 PM Reply Like
  • Your English may not be good but your work ethic and accomplishments are commendable.
    28 Oct 2012, 01:28 PM Reply Like
  • Top schools are primarily Jewish whites and asians (especially in Engineering). You can attribute this to inherent intellectual advantages or to a culture that emphasizes education and hard-work. Either way, it is a fact. The large number of highly-educated half-white/half-asian couples is creating a new cognitive elite.
    28 Oct 2012, 01:55 PM Reply Like
  • TVP:


    Thank you. Where I come from the country where there are several millions people 1000 times smarter than me and struggling for two meals a day. This country is still land of opportunity.
    28 Oct 2012, 01:59 PM Reply Like
  • There was actually a pretty interesting study done on admissions to elite Universities done within the last few years. It found that when controlling for objective factors like SAT scores, non-elite (meaning usually rural and christian) whites are the most discriminated against and underrepresented group in the United States. Basically, the slots that would go to them tend to go to "diversity" candidates who on average have much lower objective performance. The entire picture of America that so many people have is just flat out wrong and contrary to facts.
    28 Oct 2012, 02:26 PM Reply Like
  • In China, from 1958-1961, there was a great famine. Est. 30 million peasents mostly, starved to death. A great contributing factor to this was the poor policy coming from the communist party.. that road to hell is certainly paved with good intentions ain't it?


    The Children of THAT generation were made to be "paranoid" to work and save. Only the paranoid survive so said Intel's former CEO.


    That set the conscience I believe for the mentality to bust your ass or your starve to death.


    I'm married to a Chinese myself.


    I'm reading now, book called "scattered sand" about the 200 million migrant workers in China today, dying just to get a days pay and keep from starving themselves let alone take care of their parents.


    There is drive in all of us. "When your hungry, you'll work... or do whatever you have to do to find work"
    28 Oct 2012, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • >>>There is drive in all of us. "When your hungry, you'll work... or do whatever you have to do to find work"<<<


    So if that's the case, then maybe we should end the welfare and SNAP programs, and then allocate the $$$ to hiring those recipients to help build our nation's crumbling infrastructure.


    Think that would fly?
    28 Oct 2012, 03:34 PM Reply Like
  • End UI. Or, keep it, but to get a check you are handed a shovel.


    Those would suddenly be 'jobs Americans would do'.


    Well, surprise surprise. Who would have thought...


    And, to boot, once those 'jobs americans won't do' become jobs they freaking well DO do(because the backstop's gone), then that also ends the illegal immigration problem from down South as those jobs dry up.


    A two fer.
    28 Oct 2012, 03:47 PM Reply Like
  • JT,


    That's an interesting and thoughtful perspective.


    One perspective I have from my studies is that I believe what is going on in Asia today is very similar to what went on in Europe around the time of Marco Polo. In both scenarios (Marco Polo's Europe and Asia today), you have one side marveling at the accomplishments of the other. Importantly, there is and was enough of a geographical divide that made forced assimilation extremely difficult to achieve for either party. Therefore, in Marco Polo's Europe, you had an insatiable hunger and drive resultant from contact from Asia that fueled the discovery and exploitation of the New World - in Asia today, you have an insatiable hunger and drive resultant from contact with the West that is currently fueling the discovery and exploitation of the Digital World. Personally, I foresee a similar shift in relative power, one which will become painfully evident to the West when the combined economies of Asia begin to dwarf those of Europe and N. America - this will occur if/when Asia begins to approach one quarter the per capita living standard of the West -- it is a extremely likely possibility given the demographics.


    In my studies, some of my professors lectured that China (which at the time was the largest and arguably the most advanced economy in the world) actually discovered the New World hundreds of years before Columbus through the Bering strait, but due to unknown reasons all records were burned (which of course then makes you wonder how we know about it). Similarly today, we maintain a sizable technological advantage and are at the forefront of exploring the digital frontier, but through similarly inexplicable prejudices and arrogance are ceding this advantage at a frightening pace.


    I found this on the economist that may clear up some of these suppositions:

    28 Oct 2012, 04:20 PM Reply Like
  • Good question.. I"m not sure..


    Like those Europeans who have committed suicide because their welfare was cut..


    In that book I'm reading, Peng, the migrant worker was down on his luck, the author offered to help, he declined, was too proud to accept help.


    This is a generational thing you can't just change perhaps.


    A certain % will work and a certain % will riot/just off bridge if all welfare was cancelled and a work program institutied instead I think.
    29 Oct 2012, 08:27 AM Reply Like
  • It must be really hard for Asian-Americans to succeed despite all of the efforts of the racist white Americans to keep all of the other races down. (massive sarcastic eye roll).
    28 Oct 2012, 03:53 PM Reply Like
  • Yeah, study hard and work hard and get ahead in life. Pretty radical stuff.
    28 Oct 2012, 07:04 PM Reply Like
  • The best part of about this thead is the fact that as soon as the conversation went to hard work = success, the Left got quiet.
    28 Oct 2012, 09:20 PM Reply Like
  • The better part was that as soon as it started, the right got racist. :-)


    But regardless, no one disputes that hard work is a component of success -- but so is opportunity.


    A child's educational success has the strongest correlation to higher income.


    Circularly, a family's income has the strongest correlation to a child's educational success.


    Some median household income numbers (from 2009):
    Asians: ~$75K
    Whites: ~$62K
    Hispanics: ~$39K
    Blacks: ~$38K
    All: ~$60K


    Some average math standardized test scores:
    Asians: 582
    Whites: 550
    Hispanics: 504
    Blacks: 482


    Look at that! Another mere coincidence!! Gosh, there seem to be a lot of those today! :-)
    28 Oct 2012, 10:20 PM Reply Like
  • DV


    Quit posting that racist crap.


    You don't need to post nationality to draw a correlation between education and income.


    Just thought you might want to know that you are being racist but I am sure being from the left you think that is OK. America has to be one of the most racist countries on earth. Everything is about color and nationality.
    28 Oct 2012, 10:27 PM Reply Like
  • Actually Japan is much worse, seriously.


    And the whole point, to those not capable of comprehending, was that race is indeed NOT the driving factor, but rather income is.


    Come on Tommy boy, quit projecting your shortcomings onto me. ;-)
    28 Oct 2012, 10:38 PM Reply Like
  • Japan is worse. Very true.


    So income drives education not the other way around. Huh?


    Do you think all these Asians come here already rich?
    28 Oct 2012, 10:56 PM Reply Like
  • I don't think DV is being racist. What he or she is doing is confusing correlation for causality, the most prevalent error that exists in relation to thinking in life. This should be drilled into every finance and econ wannabe in college: correlation is necessary, but not sufficient to establish causality.
    28 Oct 2012, 11:01 PM Reply Like
  • Yep. Although I think DV knows the difference he is just trying to make political statements not be accurate.


    Hard to believe right?
    28 Oct 2012, 11:23 PM Reply Like
  • @ntalebfan
    I do think that correlation exist in this case
    People with higher math score when in school getting better income in their adult life.
    Liberals like DV would deny it each time more loud more obvious it becomes
    When I came here as immigrant from Eastern Europe, my family income was lower then low. I know immigrants from Vietnam and India. Their life at the beggining was as hard as my


    IMPO. Some minorities in USA are victimized by faulse teaching promoted by DV and some others. They are purposely given wrong path to be slaves of their liberal Masters
    28 Oct 2012, 11:26 PM Reply Like
  • I don't deny that there's a correlation. To do well in life, in business, in the markets you need, at the least, some basic math skills.


    But the topic that we seem to be debating belongs in the social sciences where relationships are stochastic, not deterministic as in something like physics or chemistry.
    28 Oct 2012, 11:33 PM Reply Like
  • " America has to be one of the most racist countries on earth. Everything is about color and nationality."


    Well, America is unique in that because of the relatively open borders, you actually HAVE the most races and ethnic groups within one country's borders. Many countries don't seem racist because their population is largely homogeneous - Japan is usually seen as an archetype for this attitude, but this attitude is prevalent across Europe as well. Unlike Japan and Europe,America has to deal with whatever consequences arise from its heterogeneous population.


    Also, what DV posted is not much different than what the WSJ article was about. When you post statistics that highlight differences in races and ethnic groups in various categories, you are by definition being racist (i.e., drawing distinctions based on race). However I think whether or not this particular form of racism is offensive or discriminatory depends on how the data is being used - is it being used in a constructive manner or not?


    This whole thread seems to be about getting to the bottom of why one particular race/ethnic group was able to outperform others - the question at hand is if and/or why race is a factor for achieving success. That seems rather constructive to me - the entire point of these kind of statistics is to learn from successful groups and samples so that we do achieve homogeneity with a heterogeneous population, i.e. make race irrelevant => eliminate racism.
    29 Oct 2012, 12:15 AM Reply Like
  • I only made that statement because it is true and people like DV point fingers at others when they discuss race but believe they are on some special ground that exempts them. We spend more time on race as the prism for all logic that it creates racist mindsets and a hyper awareness of race. And from that various perspectives on superiority and blame, etc. Race is used as a hammer in the US and for a lot of the wrong reasons.


    Having said that eliminating racism is too broad and is boiling the ocean. Providing common access for achievement is easier to target and in the US is hugely dependent on education. If you want to be poor just stay as ignorant as you possibly can and you will achieve your goal.
    29 Oct 2012, 01:26 AM Reply Like
  • Statistics are good. But these may not always reflects the reality. My income was below $35K when my kid was in 5th grade and his SAT math score was 650. Typically in Asian community if your are rich your kids are spoiled. I know lot of kids who have perfect 800 and their parents are not rich.
    29 Oct 2012, 10:59 AM Reply Like
  • So income is the driving factor of income? Very insightful.
    31 Oct 2012, 02:27 PM Reply Like
  • You are all incorrect about what racism is.



    Facts do not pre-suppose superiority or inferiority based on race -- unlike most right-leaning individuals.


    Facts are facts. Blacks and Hispanics, on average, have lower test scores than Whites and Asians. This is a fact. The (typically conservative) judgement that this is a genetic trait -- is racist.


    You're also wrong about correlation and causation, or at least are tracking a red herring. Causation can never be definitively proven in socioeconomics in the real world, because you can never control (or even measure) all the variables in play. So correlations are all you have, and you have to make reasonable inferences as to causation based on those correlations.


    The inference of "non-white people just don't work hard and that's the only cause for their economic hardships" is simply not reasonable, especially not in light of correlated data.


    Facts -- they're not just for liberals anymore. :-)
    29 Oct 2012, 08:18 AM Reply Like
  • DV


    Racism as used in the US is just what you experienced. You start pulling facts out by race and people react. You must be racist!!! That is why there is never a good conversation around facts by race.


    The only causation I have written about is that lack of education leads to economic hardship or at least lower incomes. And that is across all races and gender and the data is overwhelming. It is not a marginal inference.
    29 Oct 2012, 08:40 AM Reply Like
  • You're also not correct on correlation and causation. You can in fact infer causality because under certain circumstances you can in deed run experiments in social settings.


    For a background you might want to check out the work of the economist Esther Duflo of MIT who has become famous for running randomized trials in order to infer causal relationships.
    29 Oct 2012, 10:06 AM Reply Like
  • DV,


    Your definition of racism is too narrow - it only takes into account the pejorative definition:



    Both of these links also define racism as
    2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


    Prejudice can be either positive or negative, accurate or inaccurate; the key is that some sort of preconceived notion is reached based on the singular quality of race rather than a more holistic set of criteria.


    Everything in the WSJ article fits this definition of racism, as does the figures I cited for Cal admissions, as did your set of statistics. Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with this kind of racism as long as it is recognized as such and that any conclusions drawn from them will be of limited use - where racism is usually condemned is when it shows clear signs of the pejorative definition you cited in your link:
    1. a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others.
    29 Oct 2012, 10:53 AM Reply Like
  • nt


    Who are you directing your comment at?
    29 Oct 2012, 10:55 AM Reply Like
  • Reasonable people can disagree. I find the moralistic tone (So eager to judge who is an immoral racist and who is honestly interpreting facts differently) of people like D. Virginia to be one of the reason these subjects are difficult to addressed honestly and openly.


    I for one think that Asian-Americans on average have a slight IQ advantage over White-Americans and that it is likely in part do to genetic difference. My reading and interpretation of the data suggests that this is true, and many people who value basic facts above subjective interpretation or speculation agree with me.


    But so what? How high was Steve Job's IQ? I am sure it was above average but it is really beside the point. How high is the IQ of the average businessman who makes a product or service that make our lives better? Look at an inventor like Edison, etc. Certainly they would have measured highly on a basic intelligence test, yet their contribution to society rose far above simple academic performance or ranking systems for abstract intelligence. In today's word basic intelligence is itself becoming commodified.


    There are many, many human qualities that when combined with hard work can make for a successful life, career, and contribution to society. The key is finding a comparative advantage for yourself and then working hard.


    Bottom line: If people who developed separately for a very long period of time on average have some different aptitudes and strengths, it is really not the end of the world. Lets stop pretending that it would be, because plenty of evidence suggests that it is true.
    29 Oct 2012, 08:58 AM Reply Like
  • Sure, there are genetic differences, varying strengths and weaknesses, etc -- modern medicine alone proves this.


    However, the genetic variations, proven (risks of certain medical conditions) or unproven (IQ), are not nearly as drastic as the economic differences -- at least not such that it looks "reasonable" to me. Clearly there is "something else" going on.


    Culture (habits and values, not nationality), is of course a significant factor. This is why kids of lazy parents are likely to stay lazy: not only do they financially lack access to private schools, tutors, etc, but if their parents were legitimately lazy bums who got what they deserved, those same bad habits and poor values are likely to be instilled in the kid. Conspicuously, this is all regardless of race, gender, or creed.


    Is that "something else" racism? At least in part, certainly. Less than a generation ago much of the U.S. literally had LAWS that blatantly discriminated against African Americans. The effects of such things don't vanish overnight, or even in a single generation. For example, to this day, studies show that resumes with African American sounding names get fewer call-backs than identical resumes with white-sounding names -- do you still think it's all genetic?


    Is that "something else" family income/wealth? At least in part, certainly. Yes, hard work can take you far, but it conspicuously takes a LOT more hard work for a kid in a dangerous neighborhood with crappy schools with a single parent that can barely pay the bills and who doesn't care about their kid's education. (Yes, this is a very bad trait of the parent, but it's not *the kid's* fault.)


    Focus on the things that matter: the habits and values, and the opportunity gaps. One would think that it is in society's (and businesses') best interest to do this, to better leverage human capital and add more value. If you do this, then the socioeconomic variances will start too look a lot more like the genetic variances -- tiny. :-)
    29 Oct 2012, 09:54 AM Reply Like
  • Nat


    I work with a lot of Asians and visit Asia often. I also spend time with our best and brightest here in the US. I find a range of people in both geographies which is what I would expect to find.


    Here are some general differences. The slow in Asia never get far in education and are pushed aside. Therefore you are not exposed to them en masse which could lead to an impression that everyone in Asia is smart. Not so. It is worth noting that I have worked with some real idiots and lazy people on both sides of the ocean. Moving on, Asians value education so highly that they wear it on their sleeve which also would make one think at first blush that they just have natural aptitudes for it unlike everyone else on the globe. Finally Asians have a very narrow curriculum so they excel in math and sciences because they are so focused on it which would give one the impression that they are naturally bright above other global peers. Not so again. There are other factors that contribute to your perception. Generally don't ask them much about literature or history.


    On balance Asians are not as creative as Americans but this is cultural and environmental IMO. America is a great country for rebels and rebels are very creative. Rebels are not encouraged in Asia. However I have definitely seen a change in this regard in Asia in just 10 years and I expect Asians to become much more creative.


    I wont even go into IQ testing as a valid measure.


    The net of all this is that differences in aptitude are unfounded and just stereotypes. Compare this to the idea that only black athletes could play BB because it was genetic, blah, blah, blah. Look at how many players are in the NBA now from Europe. This conventional wisdom looks pretty stupid with time.
    29 Oct 2012, 11:13 AM Reply Like
  • Weren't you the guy who just defined racism as a superiority issue? By that definition discrimination is not racism. I might just hate your guts.


    By the way isn't a generation about 20 years give or take given typical birth cycles? How can you say those LAWS existed in the past 20 years? You are engaging in hyperbole.


    African Americans have opportunity but they need to act on it and keep pushing forward. Standing still and lamenting victimization is a recipe for failure. I am also coming to this idea that many AA's think everyone else has it easy and had it handed to them. That is far from the truth. As the genetic pool becomes more mixed this becomes more of a mindset then anything else. I am amazed at how many immigrants I know that look at America as a candy store of possibilities. But they know intimately about lack of opportunity so they see it much more clearly than do Americans.
    29 Oct 2012, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • > discrimination is not racism.


    Now you're making less sense than usual. ;-) Come in out of the hurricane and catch your breath.


    How, on whatever planet you're on, is discrimination not a superiority issue? White people thought they were intrinsically superior to black people, and passed laws accordingly. Wake up Tommy.


    > isn't a generation about 20 years give or take


    Oh now you're just quibbling, so clearly you know your'e wrong. Perhaps I'm mis-using that vague temporal term -- let's say in the last 50 years, well within the lifetimes of millions of living adults in the U.S., and certainly their parents and grandparents.


    > African Americans have opportunity


    Sure, but all else being equal, African Americans have /less/ opportunity than White Americans (
    29 Oct 2012, 01:11 PM Reply Like
  • DV


    It is so easy to prove you wrong. I discriminate all the time. I pick up my daughter at day care and I bring her home not some other kid. When we have annual raises or promotions I want it. I am not willing to sacrifice it for someone else. I notice that people are taller than me and shorter than me. I like apples rather than pears.


    Humans discriminate ongoing and to deny it only makes it a blind spot. It is a form of logic and the logic needs to be examined because it can have negative outcomes. But it does not equal racism although it can be racist.


    You need to look up the definition of generation because you are giving me the "aw shucks" line. It is ridiculous to say there are any laws on the books that are clearly racist in the past 20 years. Although I can think of social programs that are racist.


    Study is good and I am not surprised although it is ridiculous. There are not brain surgeons screening these resumes which is part of the problem. A lot of people overcome a lot so my point is not to stop trying. Personally I would have a professional name if I felt I was not getting through the door. My ancestors Americanized their names. And I would hide any tattoos.
    29 Oct 2012, 02:20 PM Reply Like
  • "..Sure, but all else being equal, African Americans have /less/ opportunity than White Americans.."


    That does not explain why newer immigrant blacks do so much better than native born.


    Perhaps they have not learned to be victims.
    30 Oct 2012, 10:20 AM Reply Like
  • Windsun33,


    From your article:


    "...far more black immigrant students had fathers with college or advanced degrees than did other black students."


    "...drawing an admissions distinction based on suffering under slavery is false. 'If you're going to make a slavery case, [black immigrants] from the Caribbean were also displaced and enslaved. How do you begin to differentiate?'"


    Perhaps this has nothing to do with the victim mentality. Perhaps this has nothing to do with race at all.
    30 Oct 2012, 02:47 PM Reply Like
  • ".. Perhaps this has nothing to do with race at all.."


    And that is exactly what I have been saying in several posts here. It is not about race, it is about culture and also to a large extent about the peer pressure within that culture.
    31 Oct 2012, 11:24 AM Reply Like
  • The Left have ruined S.A. comment threads with their racism, bigotry and evil ways, similar to what they've done to our once great country.
    29 Oct 2012, 09:14 AM Reply Like
  • "The Left have ruined S.A. comment threads with their racism, bigotry and evil ways, similar to what they've done to our once great country."


    I think the politicizing of this issue, as you have so clearly done in your comment, will serve to ruin any notion of constructive dialogue if allowed to continue.
    29 Oct 2012, 11:41 AM Reply Like
  • heh




    My post has been banned. It was historically accurate with LBJ's very own quotes.


    Guess the left can't handle the truth of their own racist policies.


    The only way 'to debate' is to silence the other side.


    You know, the only time I 'report abuse' is when I find a blatant anti-semite. I've never reported abuse for anything other than that.


    But the left... well, I guess you can't debate.
    29 Oct 2012, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • Wyatt
    Must be a LBJ thing. My comment referencing him was also deleted.
    29 Oct 2012, 12:02 PM Reply Like
  • >>>But the left... well, I guess you can't debate.<<<


    Sad to say, but the truth. I've tried to debate with lefties for years on an intellectual and fact based level. When they start feeling the heat that they're losing, then they start hurling the insults and ad hominems. I just start laughing, and know that I've won when it invariably reaches that point.
    29 Oct 2012, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • The left can't handle that the US economy after taking more than $5T in debt is going nowhere. Food stamps claims keep increasing.....
    29 Oct 2012, 12:00 PM Reply Like
  • I notice that the Lefties got Wyatt's thread removed. They don't like facts very much, they find them extremely inconvenient.


    The Lefties have ruined S.A. comment threads and Stock Talks with their racism and bigotry.


    Lucky for them, Seeking Alpha is run by a naive work from home staff who outsource the I.T. and other support functions like "report abuse" to Obama loving folks in India, who have historically supported the communist party in their own country.
    29 Oct 2012, 12:23 PM Reply Like
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