Seeking Alpha

"There are two enormous problems with the story that manufacturing is returning to the U.S.,"...

"There are two enormous problems with the story that manufacturing is returning to the U.S.," writes Felix Salmon. "(A) It’s not creating many jobs, and (b) the jobs it is creating are not the good jobs which people want to have for many years. Instead, they pay $15ish per hour, which is what teenage babysitters make in New York."
Comments (69)
  • The problem is that many workers emanating from today's dumbed-down education system present businesses with the same level of skills as teenage babysitters. It's routinely noted that huge quantities of higher-skilled job postings go unfilled each month because of lack of qualified applicants.
    2 Dec 2012, 09:06 AM Reply Like
  • @Tack


    I used to work at a blue collar labor service intl company, and the company provides in house education as well. however, I have also talked with long term field employees, and many have said that their kids have tried to follow them, but have decided to go to college to get a "BETTER" job, not manual by choice. The issue is not dumbed down education, but the allure of better jobs at better pay rates, better opportunities. A service economy can never compete with a mfg economy, and a mfg economy which has higher paying jobs for a single mfg engineer operating machines will never create enough blue collar jobs to enough employees to create demand to increases wages. BTW, the entire billing system at my prior company, was run by $15 hour billers, and they didn't need a college education. In fact, the company didn't have enough of them but the better jobs where management jobs, which everyone wants, to create a better life. The problem with that prior company is that there were not enough well educated senior mgmt to compete with strategy. too many political promotions and an incentive system which rewarded cost reduction (controllable profits) versus service quality (customer satisfaction). The company is now out of business.


    2 Dec 2012, 10:33 AM Reply Like
  • @ Tack,


    my dad is 88 years old, and a mfg engineer, who grew up a machinist, took higher education courses at the urging of my mom, and was chief engineer at a gear mfg company. He asked me to program the trs 80 to do his old slide rule calculations. He immediately recognized AutoCAD as quicker and better than reviewing his old drawings, he found german measurement machines much better than his micrometer. He loved being able to send his autocad drawings to the milling machines, instead of manual setups. He needed these machines to satisfy the performance demands of the auto mfg industry who wanted to compete with reliable cars in the US.


    He is retired, but the company is also near death trying to compete with the same tools and machines as the brazilians operating the same software and same machines but at a lower standard of living wage than the US.


    I also had a trade job until i went back to school to get a formal education to land a better opportunity. Currently the better opportunities are in technology, and those better opportunities are now past, like the roaring 20's left agriculture in the dust.


    The problem with the US is that corporate capitalism will sell its grandmother if the margin is high enough, and buy a replacement one if the cost is low enough. and currently, the US grandmother is too costly to keep, in order to keep up the past growth which was an abberation in economic growth, just like the roaring 20s and the resultant 30s. The corporate incentive system, which is so richly rewarded, that economic security and independence is available much earlier with just a few great years, that senior leaders will do even the unethical and illegal to attain that economic status. . . I have seen it first hand. . .


    and until the US economy collapses due to killing the goose that laid the golden egg, will the US see 90's growth again, and certainly i will be lucky if its in my lifetime.
    2 Dec 2012, 10:57 AM Reply Like
  • dumb down education system?
    Not the young people.


    Who has been in charge of this country for last few decades? Old farts and old baby boomer.
    2 Dec 2012, 08:21 PM Reply Like
  • GOP - greedy old people ;)
    2 Dec 2012, 08:22 PM Reply Like
  • Hammer:


    The left commandeered the public education system, unionized it and transformed it into a propaganda mill for politically-correct views and causes. The age of the malefactors isn't nearly as important as their political persuasion.


    The younger voters just keep dropping off the end of that assembly line, with predictable results.
    2 Dec 2012, 08:41 PM Reply Like
  • Obama has been a train wreck, but tired of hearing how the young people are this and that. non-sense already. Old farts and old baby boomers lead us in this mess. Now they make no sacrifice to reduce their social security benefits while young people who did not make this mess get cuts in future benefits.agree tack
    3 Dec 2012, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • Hammer:


    Whatever role "old folks" played, it's the old folks who paid into Social Security. It wasn't/isn't "welfare," or wasn't supposed to be, but, now, the left wishes to transform it into yet another welfare care package for the "poor." Also, it's the young, as I referenced, as products of our liberal education system, who vote in overwhelming numbers for spendthrift cradle-to-grave liberals. So, if that's what they want, let them pony up a huge share of their earnings for all that imagined "security."
    3 Dec 2012, 12:27 PM Reply Like
  • hammer
    I think you should start with your greedy parents. They are the ones who are robbing you of a good future. At least this you keep it in your family.
    3 Dec 2012, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • Tack,


    explain to me why the FICA deduction has an annual earnings cap? and why that cap was created in the 30's but not adjusted until the 80's? would it be the ones who wrote the laws and lobbied for a cap being the ones over or under the cap? and are the ones over the cap in the position of moving jobs overseas for the corporation, or the ones under the cap deciding to move their own jobs offshore?
    3 Dec 2012, 01:32 PM Reply Like
  • sports:


    No idea what your point is. FICA is capped, but so, too, are SS payouts.
    3 Dec 2012, 01:40 PM Reply Like
  • FICA withholding is capped because SS benefit is capped. If you are rich you don't need alot of SS. If you make lots of money you are rich. If you make lots of money, your FICA withholding is capped.
    3 Dec 2012, 02:45 PM Reply Like
  • Wm


    Everybody gets back based on what they pay in. It's not supposed to be a welfare program, despite the persistent clamoring for more free stuff.
    3 Dec 2012, 03:21 PM Reply Like
  • Salmon, as almost always, is all's just verbosity for the purpose of filling a column. Manufacturing IS returning...gibing that it isn't, or creating as many jobs as it USED to, is like complaining that your wife's meatloaf isn't as good as your mothers. It isn't, and it will never be because those are different things...manufacturing now doesn't need as many workers as it did 30 years, and that's technology for you.


    Secondly, $15 is not chump change in most parts of the country and when the choice is between a McJob at $7-8 or a manufacturing job at $15 in Kentucky, the good people of Kentucky will take the $15 and leave the teenage babysitters in NYC to fiddle with her iPhone.
    2 Dec 2012, 09:09 AM Reply Like
  • Your second paragraph describes GE Appliances perfectly. To EMS below, see above. As a GE shareholder, I wish your opening salvo was as accurate a portrait.
    2 Dec 2012, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • New York City makes up about 469 square miles of the 54,000+ square miles that is New York State.


    This being said, there are no babysitters in the New York that I know and live in making $15/hour. In "upstate" New York this paltry figure is almost twice miminum wage and would be considered good money. How dare Mr. Salmon thumb his nose at this figure!


    Please do not confuse New York City with New York. The Empire State is one hell of a lot more than NYC and the folks who live there and Mr. Salmon should know this.
    2 Dec 2012, 06:24 PM Reply Like
  • It makes the corporations (and shareholders) very rich. It's enough dough for the workers to subsist on Big macs, Pepsi and an iphone (which also makes the corporations rich). All part of the plan.
    2 Dec 2012, 09:23 AM Reply Like
  • $15 / hour ... or more welfare money and food stamps from Obama


    2 Dec 2012, 09:36 AM Reply Like
  • This proves the unemployment rate is higher than the official 8%. Its more like 20% for the unskilled. The number of unskilled, unemployed workers is so huge that $15/hr snags a lot of them into these jobs. The comparison with unskilled teenage babysitters is valid.
    2 Dec 2012, 09:54 AM Reply Like
  • The journolista Salmon can always be counted on to parrott the party platform, but why did he depart in this small way? Can this still be blamed on Bush (either one) or, the hated Cheney? He may yet find a way. I wonder what was in today's missive from headquarters?


    Reuters is reporting that "...while Warren Buffett correctly pointed out the social injustice of his paying a lower tax rate than his $350,000-a-year secretary, Joe the Plumber noted that social justice demands that he make at least as much as a babysitter in New York. He currently reports revenue of $200,000-a-year against expenditures to run the business of $195,000. That gives him an hourly rate of eighty cents and well under the Federal minimum. Responding to this charge, a source close to a source close to a spokesperson in the Obama administration noted that 'social justice requires Mr. Plumber to sign up for food stamps--oh...and we also have an Obamaphone waiting for him.'"
    2 Dec 2012, 09:23 AM Reply Like
  • In the global world, $15/hour is very good pay for unskilled manufacturing labor. In today's world, manufacturers must compete globally. They do so with automation and innovation, not with large throngs of highly paid unionized workers. It is good to hear that manufacturing jobs are returning to the US. I hope this is a trend that can continue. However, it will not if the expectation of those holding the jobs (or the unions they sign up with) preclude the products they produce from being competitively priced.


    Another point, teenagers in New York are probably more qualified and motivated than many who seek these jobs. They are saving for college and are not among the 30% of American youth who inexplicably elect not to complete high school and then expect high paying jobs to just appear.


    2 Dec 2012, 09:27 AM Reply Like
  • $15 / hour ... or more welfare money and food stamps from Obama




    2 Dec 2012, 09:35 AM Reply Like
  • Another reason to NOT live in New York.
    2 Dec 2012, 09:56 AM Reply Like
  • ...not to live in NYC, perhaps.


    The rest of New York, New York State that is, is not like "downstate."


    $15/hour is a good wage in Western New York and Mr. Salmon should be ashamed of his analogy.


    Factor in New York State taxes and that $15/hour is suddenly about $8 that you would net. That may be another reason not to live in NY.
    2 Dec 2012, 06:26 PM Reply Like
  • A lot of the 'babysitting' jobs in NYC area end up going to immigrants and au pairs. Mostly off the books as a cash wage. And not to local kids.


    Locals expect to get jobs with starting salaries of $50k+ just for the privilege of having them show up every day from 9-5 and for virtually not much more.


    And for my 2 cents, on the books will trump off any day even if the only benefit was social security. No one gets rich 'off the books' or living in the cash economy. That's why it's foreigners mostly doing the cash jiggle - they send their money home where they can use it.
    3 Dec 2012, 06:41 AM Reply Like
  • Welfare state kids...welfare state:


    It has all been planned for this. When people are owned by their government they will do what they are told....and it is not over yet.


    The real plan of government and congress (whether it be Republican or Democrat) is to own it's citizens, make them slaves, keep collecting the millions, and then be taken care of by the very citizens whose lives you have reduced to nothing.


    The plan to destroy the middle class is just that: a plan being executed by government to perfection. Regardless of what you see in public view, Republicans and Democrats in private are on the same side, same page, and are high fiveing each other to no end at how well it has all come together.


    The American public only has itself to blame allowing this.
    2 Dec 2012, 10:00 AM Reply Like
  • Archman, I thought this link provided by you illustrates the issue from a different, more entertaining, perspective.



    Although there is no mention of children in the clip, it is a safe assumption that the young lady has a child or two just based on demographics. So the young gentlemen gets paid to go to school, maybe 160 days a year, chill and hang out the rest of the time, the young lady has a couple of kids with no father listed on the birth certificate and they all collect from the welfare state.


    Why would they choose getting up at 6:00 AM, paying for daycare, struggling to make ends meet, for $12/hr when they can be broke and sleep in and not have to work for it and get medical coverage for their fatherless offspring? They end up broke either way, but living off the taxpayer sure has it's benefits with little responsibility.


    I personally can't see American society continuing on this trajectory. $1,000,000,000,000 annual deficits are masking a lot of our social ills and I know I am not alone in thinking in can't last forever. Terry being one possible exception.
    2 Dec 2012, 12:44 PM Reply Like
  • Not really.... What is the public supposed to do? The public marched on wall street against the 1 % and what happened? Poor old ladies got sucker punched with batons to the skull just for being there.
    2 Dec 2012, 02:20 PM Reply Like
  • AI,
    Good link. Had not seen that report, but is worth the read.
    2 Dec 2012, 02:33 PM Reply Like
  • I missed all the Grandma-beating NYPD officers attacking innocent old women "protesting Wall Street" by living in a park a few blocks from Wall Street. When did that happen? I did hear about people being arrested trying to cross police barricades and for attempting to block some of the bridges. Believe me, I'm no fan of heavy handed police, but if you try to block the bridges, or try to physically confront the police, you shouldn't expect hugs.
    2 Dec 2012, 04:20 PM Reply Like
  • Glad to see you maintain an emotionless approach to your portfolio and save the hyperbole for the comments.
    2 Dec 2012, 08:23 PM Reply Like
  • lol, genuinely funny comment (re: Mr Rulli's bio) from that spectacular outhouse!
    4 Dec 2012, 09:47 AM Reply Like
  • Many jobs in Conservative states pay only $8-10 per hour, and come with food stamps-Medicaid. This allows the business owners to send millions to their offshore bank accounts each year.
    2 Dec 2012, 10:02 AM Reply Like
  • What a tough guy this anonymous WMARKW is? I bet in real life he is just as badass. LOL!
    2 Dec 2012, 02:24 PM Reply Like
  • Did I offend your sensibilities, Mr. Machievelli?
    3 Dec 2012, 02:48 PM Reply Like
  • The government hasn't yet issued rules against babysitting but rest assured there are thousands of bureaucrats in Washington working to kill these jobs just like they killed manufacturing jobs.
    2 Dec 2012, 10:04 AM Reply Like
  • wyostocks is right. Here in Minnesota there's an effort to require mandatory unionization of all day-car workers. Why not unionize babysitters, require a government-mandated training course and hire a boatload of people (thus creating jobs) to monitor compliance and enforce the mandatory rules and launder the union money back into the political system?
    2 Dec 2012, 11:07 AM Reply Like
  • "What we have here is a situation where a company offered a wage in the marketplace and couldn’t get any workers to accept it. Consequently, it went out of business. "


    No, what we have here is a situation where a company offered a wage to a union which wouldn't accept it. Consequently, the company is going to liquidate, sell off the brands and assets to others. New jobs will be created in the marketplace (probably in Mexico.)


    And BTW, the teenage baby sitter getting paid $15 an hour in NYC is more than likely NOT paying any federal, state, city, or SS taxes on that money. Even so, that would NOT make for a living wage in New York, though it might in other places. But the point is comparing manufacturing wages in one part of the country to what baby sitters make in an over-priced city is a great sound bite but otherwise a useless comparison.
    2 Dec 2012, 11:23 AM Reply Like
  • where is the report abuse button???
    2 Dec 2012, 11:31 AM Reply Like
  • BK0324 - it us just down below your comment under the caption "Report Abuse"
    2 Dec 2012, 12:43 PM Reply Like
  • BK - totally agree
    we are all highly abused by the trolls pumping out Democratic party dogma - hear hear I say. Do report it. Please do. I know I shall.
    2 Dec 2012, 01:17 PM Reply Like
  • And $7.25 is a reasonable minimum wage in the country ??
    2 Dec 2012, 11:34 AM Reply Like
  • Devil - it's actually probably too high from an economics perspective. Who is supposed to make that wage? Do you want to encourage teenagers in High School to think they can support themselves and their future families as a cashier at McDonald's? Or do you want them to work there part-time while going to school and learn that such jobs are in no way designed to support themselves and their families?
    2 Dec 2012, 12:44 PM Reply Like
  • What families?
    2 Dec 2012, 12:58 PM Reply Like
  • This just reminded me of a friends dilemma. Her daughter is pregnant, she's 27 and not married. She's only known the father for a few months, he's a nice guy and would marry her but she isn't sure she wants to spend the rest of her life with him. Aside form the moral aspect - she has a college education but is working in retail, for $12.50 an hour, no health insurance. She owns her home, and a small rental condo, which is being lived in by a friend, for basically cost (HOA, taxes, insurance ...). So my friend helps her financially, as best she can. Does anyone have any idea how she could get into a health care plan at this point? Not sure how far along she is, but not very far. She wants to keep the baby, but it will be financial hardship. I'm not very informed on Medicaid etc. but have a feeling some here might know. Hope this isn't too OT, there is quite a readership here, you never know who might have info.
    2 Dec 2012, 01:06 PM Reply Like
  • Come on guys. Help out Ms. BK0324. Medicaid help?


    I would start
    2 Dec 2012, 01:18 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks Tony, I think they already checked it and she might not qualify due to resources etc. However, is there a good source of info on the option of purchasing Affordable health insurance, such as the Obamacare would offer? I'm sure they are already checking into this as well, but would be interesting to see what the folks here know.
    2 Dec 2012, 01:24 PM Reply Like
  • I don't know if I've got the facts right? A college grad has a casual relationship with nice guy, he knocks her up and she's sure she wants the child but she's not sure she wants to marry him? Then she looks for a safe opportunity to marry the federal medical system but cannot find the correct mating ritual? That about it?


    I say go for it. It's free, but she probably already knows that.
    2 Dec 2012, 03:17 PM Reply Like
  • Nope your reading comprehension is pretty lacking - she would like to find health insurance that will allow her to keep her home and income, yet cover the delivery of the baby. The father is not high income fellow either, but will be there for the baby, as much as he can.


    So to sum it up, we can subsidize Walmart, the "biggest welfare pig in the US" as someone else called it, but for a working US citizen, trying to get some help - OMG - atrocious!!!
    2 Dec 2012, 03:31 PM Reply Like
  • For those who don't live/work in the NYC area, costs here are so much higher than places in the south or west, comparing them is useless. This study states that a worker in NYC would need to make $123,000 to have the same standard of living as someone who makes $50,000 in Houston. Granted, even the $50,000 number is $25/hr based on a 2,000 hour work year, well above the $13.50 starting salary in the story, but a two worker household, each making $13.50/hr, pulls in $54,000/year pretax.

    2 Dec 2012, 11:36 AM Reply Like
  • Lliving in the poorest county of NY and all I can say is:


    Try commuting to work if the cost of living is too high in NYC.
    2 Dec 2012, 06:30 PM Reply Like
  • Port Authority tolls just went up again today, so its not getting any cheaper to get into NYC if you commute. The whole city is like a bizarre universe where costs don't matter at all. Its strange.
    2 Dec 2012, 06:36 PM Reply Like
  • Mr. Maher,


    Any chance NYC becomes "independent" from the rest of New York State. Plenty of "upstaters" wouldn't mind having NYC becoming free and clear from the rest of us who live, work, and pay taxes in the Empire State.


    NY State Thruway Authority is considering an increase on tolls for trucks. Great way to promote New York as a business destination.


    All of New York could become a bizarre universe, in my opinion, as taxes continue to go up and we sit on a rather large natural gas reserve that can not be tapped. Remember the new TV ad from the folks in Albany: THIS IS NEW YORK


    Any signs of Gov. Cuomo down your way? He hasn't been seen in WNY in a long, long time.
    2 Dec 2012, 07:02 PM Reply Like
  • I'm in Jersey, about 20 miles from Manhattan, so I havnt seen any of Gov Cuomo lately, although word is that he and Gov Christie are becoming fast friends as they go to Washington looking for disaster relief funds.


    I doubt NYC would ever leave NY State, and although I'm not positive, I'm think the city brings more money into the state as a whole than it costs the state. As for the natural gas, it amazes me that New York State has been so slow going on developing the reserves. I havent been that far west of Newbergh in a few years, but I didnt know the economy upstate was so strong that the state could afford to turn down all the investment and jobs that come along with natural gas development, or the taxes they could raise. Eventually, the state will come around. Hopefully its not too late.
    2 Dec 2012, 08:52 PM Reply Like
  • Maybe the unions should get involved here and agitate for higher wages. Then those manufacturers can close shop and shut down or expat, sell assets to foreigners like Hostess.


    Then, those poor workers can go apply for free housing subsidies(Sec. 8), free food electronic Cal Fresh cards and get on medicaid.


    Sounds like a plan.


    The unions are smartz.
    2 Dec 2012, 11:38 AM Reply Like
  • Felis is kind in an idiot. Examine the statement
    "There are two enormous problems with the story that manufacturing is returning to the U.S.," writes Felix Salmon. "(A) It’s not creating many jobs, and (b) the jobs it is creating are not the good jobs which people want to have for many years. Instead, they pay $15ish per hour, which is what teenage babysitters make in New York."


    First of all - the starting premise that there are two enormous problems associated with manufacturing returning is nonsensical on its face
    Is the fundamental problem that manufacturing is returning? Why would that ever be a bad thing - irrespective of the issues he raises - unless it was "crowding out" other more productive pursuits or was especially dangerous or dirty - but that is not what he says.


    If we believe what he says - then why are these problems at all? A job is better than no job. Some money is better than no money. Especically if you are young and unemployed. The pay difference from my first job to the one I do now is about a 10 fold change over 30 years. You have to start somewhere.


    But the truth of it is that he does not really understand what is goingon. In the traded goods sector - wage growth is driven by two things - worker productivity and value add. If you are bolting together a bicycle and calling it manufacturing you are not going be paid all that much. But if you are machining the gears and other components then you are going to be paid more for that.


    The more interesting question is what sort of manufacturing jobs are coming back and why? Is it proximity to markets? Fear of intellectual property theft? US worker relative productivity? Acess to low cost energy? Other? Understanding root causes can lead to the right sort of policy response that can furhter mprove competitiveness and accelerate the trend.


    2 Dec 2012, 01:39 PM Reply Like
  • Perfect example of today's leftist agitprop that would make pravda proud.


    The 'poor' have been continually revised up the economic ladder to the point to where, now, they are almost middle class by a 1958 standard. Actually, today's 'poor' would be considered wealthy by a 1958 standard, what with their futuristic TV phones and huge wall flatscreens and free food that magically appears in their cupboards with the square piece of plastic in their wallet, the cheap housing, free infant formula and diapers, endless UI checks, disability claims, SSI etc. etc. None of which existed back in 1958, let alone 1935.


    So, today's left, along with the Washington/media complex which has been redefining what it means 'to be poor' have reclassified it so many times that it is actually quite a well-heeled group.


    And the leftist marxists in DC, of which Obama is its head, can not only farm more power in with those voter clients hooked up to his parasitic IV, but he can also squeeze more middle class people into his bag of fish too as the State runs its business into their lives.


    This is the old game that has gone on throughout history. The upper 2% don't suffer any negative outcome. They are in bed with government. Thus, the endless Buffet articles. He is buying influence. He won't be affected and can get more govt. deals aka specialty warrants that aren't accessed by the public. Meanwhile, the upper middle gets pushed down into the middle. And the poor get pushed up into the middle. All that's left at that point is the super rich & power elite and 'the middle' which are then reduced to just everyone else or the proletariat, the new poor.


    That is how this game works. Two classes, in the end, just like Alinsky taught. This is how you get there. Expand the welfare state. Expand the entitlements. Increase the size of government. Nationalize as much as possible. Centralized and moat in power. Change social structures forever to 'take care of' more voter client patrons at the ballot box, who in turn have no choice other than to vote for more of same in a circular act of mutual dependency.


    This is what our Founders warned us about and we've never been closer to that juncture now than ever before. All Obama needs is one more major takeover to make the deindustrialization of the United States complete. Personally, I think it will be energy these next four years. There's not much left after that.


    Nations never recuperate from these kinds of takeovers. Once the institutions are in place, they are never removed. They are permanent, which is why Obamacare was such a tragedy. Now its only a matter of time. Freedom is crushed. Next on the agenda is controlling more minutiae of how americans live their lives, including smoking, eating and drinking since now they are literally a line item on the federal balance sheet.


    It took Fidel's Cuba over 50 years before it became unsustainable, even for the regime to handle. Private property rights, gone. But that's what higher taxation is here. Same thing. It was only until Raoul took over that he was able to look at the govt's balance sheet and finally admit, we can't afford it any longer. So he fired over a million public and state 'workers' who were really only welfare cronies who weren't working anyway. But they can't afford them any longer. But the problem is that the society has been un-trained from its entrepreneurial past. The candle has been snuffed out behind their eyes. Being an entrepreneur means you are a dreamer. There are no dreams in a communist state. Dreams are crushed. And so even when you have a once commie dictator and thug declare he is open to allowing the incentives of free markets to open again, the trust is still gone so no one wants to go out and meet the challenge. Its broken.


    Once its gone, its gone... forever. There's no going back. Even China learned that they had to not only embrace private property rights, but get their military to enforce a free market because nobody knew what in the hell they were talking about. They weren't trained to know. They were all bobbleheads. That's how bad it can get when the people are ruined for over a generation. All it takes to kill an empire is one generation, just one. Take one generation and train them against their forebears, and its the endgame. Its over. Obama is moving at incredible speed at training voters to belly up to his form of patronage.
    2 Dec 2012, 01:50 PM Reply Like
  • $8-$15 per hour will not support a robust economy, nor a resurgence of the middle class. Eventually the markets for a lot of goods and services dissappear.
    2 Dec 2012, 01:53 PM Reply Like
  • All this whining and moaning about $15/hour jobs.


    Hey, if somebody wants a job that commands more than $15/hour, then, they can get off their no-doubt oversized gluteus maximus, get the education and/or skills (p.s. our giveaway government provides unlimited largesse for this) that qualify them for higher pay, and have the determination to work hard enough to succeed.


    Nobody -- not individuals, businesses or our patronizing Government -- "owes" anybody else $15/hour, or even one thin dime. Absent being genuinely disabled, one should get paid what they can command, not a cent more.
    2 Dec 2012, 02:15 PM Reply Like
  • You mean like Hostess execs getting millions for running their company into the ground?
    2 Dec 2012, 06:42 PM Reply Like
  • A few words about those execs you mention, courtesy ZeroHedge:


    The Hostess Liquidation: A Curious Cast Of Characters As The Twinkie Tumbles
    4 Dec 2012, 09:56 AM Reply Like
  • The FIRE (Finance,Insurance,Real Estate) economic model has failed us twice in the last 30 years. I sincerely hope that the new STEM Science,Technology,Eng... that is beginning to emerge gains power quickly and that our leaders in both the political and corporate worlds seize this chance.
    Reform the laws and finance options for college and tech schools to encourage young people to pursue these careers.


    As for manufacturing and the old industrial complex. That is a dinosaur looking for a tar pit to die in. We will never see a reemergence of that type of manufacturing again. We can not go back to the utopia of 1950's post world war two America. The future is in science and tech. And we need the mathematicians and engineers to enable our scientists and tech wonder boys (and girls of course) to do their thing.


    As for the "hordes of unwashed heathens" who don't qualify for these education intensive jobs, there is the service industry. Now, before you start screaming about minimum wage slaves, no future, blah blah blah. Those with no formal education need local/store managers. Those store managers need district managers, and they in turn need regional managers.
    And with more and more highly paid science/tech types, the demand for making them the products they will demand will increase. They will want their toys, coffee, cars, gifts, jewelry etc etc.
    It is estimated that each STEM job created will also cause three to five service/support jobs to be created shortly after. The old manufacturing/industrial model averaged one to two service/support jobs.


    This is the USA's chance to seize the lead in innovation and remain a global power in the STEM economy that is emerging all over the world. NOW is the time to act.
    2 Dec 2012, 03:31 PM Reply Like
  • You're right, of course. Most real value in an economy is made by innovation, creation, and production. Sadly, a career in science looks like a horrible place to be financially given the mental capacity and sheer effort required to really succeed in it. I have hopes and dreams but it looks like those who control and manipulate (lawyers/politicians/b... will continue to be more rewarded than those who innovate and create. That is part of why I am here. It was easy for me to learn how to make money in the stock market, but it is very hard to even get a decent job in many areas of science. The system is rotten, of course, and will someday come crashing down.
    2 Dec 2012, 04:03 PM Reply Like
  • Seth, I am not sure what branch of science you are studying, or where, but there are plenty of jobs out there for people who have advanced science degrees, are willing to work with integrated teams, and have the flexibility to locate where the work is. The medical, energy, and computer industries, to name a few, cannot fill their positions. All do have expectations beyond just having a degree, i.e. they are looking for team players who don't expect to run the company a year after being hired, but jobs are plentiful for people with degrees in science and engineering.
    2 Dec 2012, 04:45 PM Reply Like
  • [That is part of why I am here. It was easy for me to learn how to make money in the stock market, but it is very hard to even get a decent job in many areas of science. The system is rotten, of course, and will someday come crashing down. ]


    Sure, you sound like the type of guy I'd hire right away (/sarcasm).


    He's some help. I'm a Chem E, PhD in my 70th year. I'm able to get a job anyplace on the planet, and I have. My experience shows that in the business side of science (as opposed to the political side of science), one needs four cardinal traits. One has to be intelligent, self-motivated, have some moxie (how to make money is your primary purpose) and one has to get along with the other intelligent, self-motivated personnel that should surround you.


    There you go, young man.
    4 Dec 2012, 10:06 AM Reply Like
  • Seth
    With that attitude son you'll never get a job.
    Go read some positive thinking books, change that attitude, stop blaming other people, be willing to start low and work hard, and then (assuming you truly have some skills and education) the doors will open.


    Until then, keep whining about your poor misfortune. Those of us a lot older than you went through tough times also and made it through. Remember, when the going gets tough, the tough get going.
    4 Dec 2012, 10:41 AM Reply Like
  • Yes, it's business, not science. Science for the sake of scientific discovery doesn't pay all that well. Science vs. engineering.
    10 Dec 2012, 07:22 PM Reply Like
  • You can make the equivalent of $15 an hour on Food stamps/Medicaid/Section 8 Rent/WIC plus add $10,500 in EIC (earned income credit) and you make over $70,000 a year in NY -- so why work?
    Ha, but if you stopped all these government programs maybe there would left something in thepie for everyone and America would be competitive ...
    Or, you could homeless in NY and make the homeless landlords of NY rich so they can pay the taxes (if they dont find a way to get out of it) so we can all be homeless ....
    2 Dec 2012, 04:37 PM Reply Like
  • And how many teenage babysitters work 40 hour weeks. Exactly 0.
    2 Dec 2012, 06:38 PM Reply Like
DJIA (DIA) S&P 500 (SPY)