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Plan C. Acknowledging there is no time to craft a "grand bargain" before year end, the President...

Plan C. Acknowledging there is no time to craft a "grand bargain" before year end, the President urges Congress to pass a stopgap measure, saying he'll immediately sign a bill allowing unemployment benefits to continue and preventing tax hikes on those with income under $250K/year.
Comments (182)
  • frosty
    , contributor
    Comments (702) | Send Message
     
    It seems the republicans have voted to increase EVERYONE'S taxes. Now they should vote to reduce most peoples' taxes, as the president requests. Or do they simply want to sabotage the economy?
    22 Dec 2012, 07:49 AM Reply Like
  • bbrady413
    , contributor
    Comments (757) | Send Message
     
    Ummmm no. With the Bush Tax Cuts expiring, rates are going up automatically without a vote. You can't selectively play one side of the coin. If you're saying that the Republicans have voted to increase taxes by not passing an extension of the tax cuts, then the Democrats are just as guilty.
    22 Dec 2012, 08:38 AM Reply Like
  • chopchop0
    , contributor
    Comments (3536) | Send Message
     
    Exactly, bbrady413
    22 Dec 2012, 09:33 AM Reply Like
  • Remyngton
    , contributor
    Comments (354) | Send Message
     
    Bro , get to rehab , ASAP
    22 Dec 2012, 10:03 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Well, they did get one bill passed, one that cut food stamps for kids and gave that money to the military so that it can buy the finest killing machines like F-35. So, let's not jump to conclusions here till all the facts are in.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:03 AM Reply Like
  • Remyngton
    , contributor
    Comments (354) | Send Message
     
    food stamps 47,000 ,000 and counting ( +18,000,000 in 4 years )

     

    11,000 new recipients every day for the last 4 years , though September was the biggest month ever +600,000 new recipients

     

    Hugo Chavez would be proud
    22 Dec 2012, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • berbno1
    , contributor
    Comments (1379) | Send Message
     
    Never sure what guys on here are thinking, but, as I understand it, frosty may have been referring to Plan B, where under $1M earners would have an increase of $1K, and over $1M would have increase after the $50,000 "gift." TP would not support any increase, thus it never came to vote...details, of course, depend on what station you are listening to. imo, let's go with mandatory taxes and cuts (not a "cliff")...it's surely more substantive than these guys will ever agree to...may be bitter, but lets get this behind us.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:26 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    I agree. We need to buy F-35s with a cost of $1.4Trillion.

     

    http://reut.rs/UR2RHb

     

    When it comes to a choice between providing food for the hungry and buying fine killing machines, WWJD? (hint: Buy the killing machines of course.) That's why religious conservatives are for F-35, money to come from cutting out foodstamps for kids.
    22 Dec 2012, 12:23 PM Reply Like
  • Terry330
    , contributor
    Comments (867) | Send Message
     
    Thanks to Republicans, most new jobs and millions of others now qualify for food stamps, while wealthy pay a 58 year low in taxes.
    22 Dec 2012, 01:40 PM Reply Like
  • wyostocks
    , contributor
    Comments (8242) | Send Message
     
    terry
    So this is how you Obamaittes plan to spin this disaster.
    Thanks for the DNC talking point .
    22 Dec 2012, 01:47 PM Reply Like
  • HoldAndBuyInvestor
    , contributor
    Comments (146) | Send Message
     
    Terry, do you have a job or you are on foodstamp and just writing for democrats. I see your political comments all over SA as you are running some political propaganda.
    22 Dec 2012, 02:47 PM Reply Like
  • Rope a Dope
    , contributor
    Comments (578) | Send Message
     
    The US Government has spent more than $15 trillion USD since 1960 on the ‘War on Poverty’ yet poverty in this country is worse now than it was in 1960. When we simply provide food for the hungry as you say, are we also doing anything to make these people self-sufficient or are we just creating a society of people that feel they are entitled to something? Helping people get on their feet is the right thing to do in our country, but the system is being horribly abused.
    22 Dec 2012, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • Bigfloridafish
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    The farmers are sure happy about it so are the grocery stores so are the truckers and so are people who make trucks and the pickers and so are the seed companies and so are the farm equipment manufactures and the people who make all the parts for all these products the list can go on and on, Man this sure creates alot of jobs and feeds hungry people at the same time.
    22 Dec 2012, 05:55 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    We can't have a policy that creates jobs. Let's get rid of the policy and raise unemployment.
    22 Dec 2012, 06:01 PM Reply Like
  • JohnBinTN
    , contributor
    Comments (3816) | Send Message
     
    @BigFLFish - Let's put everyone on food stamps in that case... That would take care of unemployment, don't ya' think?
    22 Dec 2012, 06:55 PM Reply Like
  • TGC004
    , contributor
    Comments (444) | Send Message
     
    For those of us who pay the AMT rate already, going over the cliff is no big deal, in fact it is about time that the 47% start to pay their fair share.
    22 Dec 2012, 08:23 PM Reply Like
  • marketman54
    , contributor
    Comments (823) | Send Message
     
    We had the war on poverty - thank you drunken Ted Kennedy. We had the war on drugs - thank you Richard Nixon. We had the war on home ownership - thank you Clinton and Barney Frank. And now we have the war on Republicans - thank you Obama.

     

    From food stamps to $20 trillion of debt, we have elected officials who don't care about this country!
    22 Dec 2012, 08:59 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    All they seem to care about is feeding the hungry, which obviously doesn't do this nation any good.
    22 Dec 2012, 09:30 PM Reply Like
  • danf
    , contributor
    Comments (735) | Send Message
     
    Elimination of the Bush tax cuts have always been the policy of the democratic party. How many quotes can we find from Reid and Pelosi about those tax cuts being give aways to the rich. The only reason these tax rates have an expiration date is due to the insistence of the democrats. The republicans offered a tax increase for millionaires. Isn't that what the democrats always talk about...the millionaires not the 200 thousandaires. Blame the republicans all you want. In 2 years maybe you can have the house and then even the media wont be able to hide Obamas ownership of his policy. What a joke.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:03 PM Reply Like
  • danf
    , contributor
    Comments (735) | Send Message
     
    Eliminate food stamps altogether.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:04 PM Reply Like
  • danf
    , contributor
    Comments (735) | Send Message
     
    So you support sequestor or dont. Those spending cuts fall most heavily on the military. I would guess you support that right ?
    22 Dec 2012, 10:05 PM Reply Like
  • danf
    , contributor
    Comments (735) | Send Message
     
    Wrong. The top 5% of income earners pay 60%+ of all the tax revenues. Go visit the IRS the tables are published there. If your 58 years comments is referring to marginal rates, then you are simply mouthing deceptive tripe. Those marginal rates were paid by very few and in fact the percentage of total tax revenues paid by the top earners is higher than it was 58 years ago.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:10 PM Reply Like
  • danf
    , contributor
    Comments (735) | Send Message
     
    Agreed...here is the revolution I propose. Next year I will pay 1/2 the tax I am paying this year and the year after I will lower my tax bill by 1/2 again. I will do that by reducing my income, working less and spending less. It turns out that I can do that with little impact on my real lifestyle if I simply chose to pursue other interests.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:17 PM Reply Like
  • danf
    , contributor
    Comments (735) | Send Message
     
    Feel free to write a check to your favorite charity. There is nothing stopping you from making it your life's work to feed the "hungry".
    22 Dec 2012, 10:20 PM Reply Like
  • The EconomicJoker
    , contributor
    Comments (961) | Send Message
     
    It was Clinton that let China into the WTO and gave them most favored trade partner. That's where your jobs went. Learn your facts before you get in the big boy pool.

     

    Obama has doubled gas prices, food stamps, tripled the debt, doubled the deficit, assassinated americans, detained Americans without trial, droned pakistani kids to death.

     

    Just be quiet, you don't know your facts.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:51 PM Reply Like
  • The EconomicJoker
    , contributor
    Comments (961) | Send Message
     
    You're wrong. It's 80% of all taxes, not 60.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:52 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    I like the passion. This is exactly the campaign platform Republicans should take up in 2014. Cut taxes for the top 5%, raise then for the bottom 95%. Also, cut spending for the bottom 95%. This is a principled stance and while it will take Republicans out of power forever, sometimes you just have to do the right thing.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:08 PM Reply Like
  • thomas j. flaherty
    , contributor
    Comments (119) | Send Message
     
    Great idea fish! Lets all quit our jobs and go on food stamps...to create jobs!
    23 Dec 2012, 12:21 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    What about this? For those of us that have jobs, let's keep them, while helping those who need help, like food stamps. WWJD?
    23 Dec 2012, 12:35 AM Reply Like
  • Bigfloridafish
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    Little children are already unemployed but the Republicans want to repeal the child labor law and make them go work in factories like in China.
    23 Dec 2012, 02:48 AM Reply Like
  • chopchop0
    , contributor
    Comments (3536) | Send Message
     
    Um if you want to see bad teen unemployment, check out EUROPEAN nations like Spain or Greece LOL.
    23 Dec 2012, 08:38 AM Reply Like
  • berbno1
    , contributor
    Comments (1379) | Send Message
     
    Joker-- you may be in the big pool, but you're in the shallow end. What a bunch of FoxNews soundbite crap. The election is over, if you're as "American" as you guys like to talk, put down your guns, get behind the President, and put a positive spin on things.
    23 Dec 2012, 09:17 AM Reply Like
  • marketwatcher23
    , contributor
    Comments (1001) | Send Message
     
    All of this can be solved by going to war, so let's get moving with that false flag alrerady....
    23 Dec 2012, 10:00 AM Reply Like
  • wyostocks
    , contributor
    Comments (8242) | Send Message
     
    berbno

     

    I agree. Republicans and Conservatives should get behind Obama just like all the democrats and liberals got behind Bush after he won two elections?

     

    Does that also mean no name calling like you all did to Bush?
    23 Dec 2012, 10:06 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    They should block Obama every step of the way even if that leads the country to a recession. In fact, they should block especially if it leads the country to a recession. They should also be very open and public about what they are doing. Make that a campaign platform in 2014, that no matter what happens to the country and the people, Republicans will block Obama every step of the way.

     

    That way, the House will go back to the Democrats in 2014. I love it!
    23 Dec 2012, 10:33 AM Reply Like
  • untervieraugen
    , contributor
    Comment (1) | Send Message
     
    You puerile dolt. What we're talking about are the hated, evil Bush tax cuts expiring on everyone (note: Bush is a Republican). The Republicans voted to make these tax cuts permanent for everyone. And, remember, the Bush tax cuts "only benefited the rich"; ergo, their expiration will only punish the rich. Be happy, dolt.
    23 Dec 2012, 11:03 AM Reply Like
  • 440978
    , contributor
    Comments (159) | Send Message
     
    Here's a talking point that is pure non-sense and not at all factual: Tax cuts create jobs.
    23 Dec 2012, 05:49 PM Reply Like
  • Andrew Shapiro
    , contributor
    Comments (1897) | Send Message
     
    brady - actually not -

     

    The Democratic controlled Senate has already passed a bill that extended the tax cuts for incomes $250K and lower. (Obama has stated he would support legislation even extending to $400K income)

     

    Speaker of House Boehner attempted to get the Republican controlled House to pass a bill extending tax cuts for incomes less than $1MM but not extending the cuts for $1MM + incomes. The Republicans failed to pass this measure.
    23 Dec 2012, 06:58 PM Reply Like
  • Bill913
    , contributor
    Comments (25) | Send Message
     
    Give me one example of Obama's leadership. Being the biggest spender of taxpayer money in history doesn't count. He is absolutely worthless as a president and will very likely cause the permanent collapse of our society as we know it, which unfortunately I believe is his intention.
    23 Dec 2012, 07:56 PM Reply Like
  • joe kelly
    , contributor
    Comments (1777) | Send Message
     
    Boehner couldn't even get his people to keep tax rates the same for 98% of Americans. The blame is squarely on the republicans bbrady.
    23 Dec 2012, 09:44 PM Reply Like
  • diadochi
    , contributor
    Comments (231) | Send Message
     
    The bonfire of the Republicans. Bring some marshmellows!
    23 Dec 2012, 09:53 PM Reply Like
  • Bigfloridafish
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    Here is one that will get roasted republican Mike Crapo just got arrested. Republicans hard at work.

     

    http://huff.to/12zgX5C
    23 Dec 2012, 09:57 PM Reply Like
  • The EconomicJoker
    , contributor
    Comments (961) | Send Message
     
    What a crock.. Every single one of these politicians is a crony capitalist. Not ONE of them have your interests in mind. They want to get re-elected so they can make more and more money.

     

    Anyone arguing about parties is an idiot. They're all the same. They need to expelled from office. ALL OF THEM.

     

    democratic parties did this, GOP did this. PLEASE. Grow up and grow a pair. These politicians are ALL liars and thieves.

     

    You citizens should educate yourselves and start demanding more and throwing these bums out.
    23 Dec 2012, 10:45 PM Reply Like
  • Bigfloridafish
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    Well your right but we only can vote for the lesser of two evils which pretty much puts the Democrats at the top.
    23 Dec 2012, 10:47 PM Reply Like
  • The EconomicJoker
    , contributor
    Comments (961) | Send Message
     
    !@#$ that. These politicians all need to go. I dont watch TV or news channels. You should try it.

     

    Fox news. don't insult me cartoon cat. How cute.
    23 Dec 2012, 10:47 PM Reply Like
  • Bigfloridafish
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    I saw 1 football game last week and 1 this week that all my TV has been on. I have a 20 year old TV and it will last another 20. I had to buy all kind of crap just to use digital.
    23 Dec 2012, 11:39 PM Reply Like
  • Aristiphones
    , contributor
    Comments (1327) | Send Message
     
    allow all of us to use the EBT card at select fast food restaurants (Arby's serves quality food) and indeed you would see a nice increase in employment.
    24 Dec 2012, 12:13 AM Reply Like
  • Aristiphones
    , contributor
    Comments (1327) | Send Message
     
    "from each according to his ability...to each according to his need." congratulations your a Marxist!
    24 Dec 2012, 12:16 AM Reply Like
  • JohnDavid1967
    , contributor
    Comments (8) | Send Message
     
    Ahhh, the ole "I'm going to take my ball and go home" argument. You are certainly free to do that if you like. It sure beats hanging out an whining about things.
    24 Dec 2012, 02:04 AM Reply Like
  • bbro
    , contributor
    Comments (9851) | Send Message
     
    The time to make hell was last year(2011) for the GOP,,,when Obama was up for reelection in 2012...not sure what their strategy ( if they have one) is this year....
    22 Dec 2012, 08:15 AM Reply Like
  • wyostocks
    , contributor
    Comments (8242) | Send Message
     
    Time for Obama to compromise and stop his grandstanding.
    22 Dec 2012, 08:25 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    I agree. Obama needs to become a Republican. Otherwise Republicans should reject anything and everything that Obama says.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:06 AM Reply Like
  • Remyngton
    , contributor
    Comments (354) | Send Message
     
    He can't help it , Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro are his advisors
    22 Dec 2012, 10:59 AM Reply Like
  • XRTrader
    , contributor
    Comments (609) | Send Message
     
    Damn, I'm a republican and I thought Obama's 400k income cut off for tax raise and spending cuts (particularly basing security on the chained CPI). Then, the democrats came out and said they would pass the same bill with 500k income tax level if repubs agreed.

     

    That seemed like a great compromise to me! I still have NO idea why the repubs refused...
    22 Dec 2012, 11:06 AM Reply Like
  • bbro
    , contributor
    Comments (9851) | Send Message
     
    But the election is over,,,why should he??? They had him in 2011...
    22 Dec 2012, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Exactly. I think Obama should be impeached for winning a second term.
    22 Dec 2012, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Look, someone has to stand up for the rich.
    22 Dec 2012, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • marketman54
    , contributor
    Comments (823) | Send Message
     
    The reason XRTrader is that Obama wants 2 more little things.

     

    1. He wants to spend $50 billion a month above and beyond the Fed for public works programs that were suppose to funded and public ready under Tarp 1/2/3 or Quantitative Easing 1/2/3 or Twist 1/2/3.

     

    2. He wants to take the power away from the Senate for control of the DEPT CEILING. He wants to be able to run the printing presses 24/7 and spend as much as he wants to float the country to $30 trillion of debt.

     

    So you can only imagine how bad things really are if he is gonna get $1.4 trillion plus $600 billion plus print as much as he wants!

     

    DEPRESSION, INFLATION, GREECE HERE WE COME!!!
    22 Dec 2012, 09:04 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Why are forward looking inflation rates so low, as evinced by the TIPS market? What do you know that the worldwide bond market doesn't know?
    22 Dec 2012, 09:32 PM Reply Like
  • danf
    , contributor
    Comments (735) | Send Message
     
    In another context, in black suit and peaked cap, you could just as easily be saying, "look someone has to stand up for the jews"

     

    Lets see if I have this right. The 1% can be treated differently because they are 1 and we are 99. So the moral imperative lies with the 99 because, there are 99 of you ? So moral means, "they have it and I want it". Of course you want it to do "good" things with it, right ?

     

    I can see no moral argument for the idea of "progressive" taxation. If you walk into a store, buy a package of gum and walk up to the counter to pay, does the cashier first ask you, "I'll tell you how much it costs after you first tell me how much your salary is".

     

    Perhaps you will argue that the rich man gets more from the government than the less rich man. His personal safety is worth more to him ?

     

    But thats not really the spending question in America today is it. The spending demand is entitlements. The whole entitlement logic today is fundamentally about the many taking from the few. If it was simply the few taking from the many, it would not be a problem, the productive elements of society could support that. But thats not really the issue is it.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:36 PM Reply Like
  • danf
    , contributor
    Comments (735) | Send Message
     
    Who knows what the TIPS market or any other rate is telling you when the federal reserve is intervening in the markets in so many ways ?

     

    Policy is in uncharted territory and to pretend that you have instrumentation that can say anything certain about 5 years from now is simply too convenient.

     

    Debasement of currency by governments is nothing new. The facts - apart from fed rhetoric- appears to support the idea that the main aim of the fed is to facilitate treasury borrowing....period.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:56 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Exactly my point. The few, the rich, should take from the many, the poor and the middle class. Clearly society can support it, as it did in the feudal ages. Republicans should open about that, that they want to take from the poor and the middle class and give the benefits tot he rich. I mean, someone has to stand up for the oppressed rich.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:10 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Exactly. It is extremely difficult to predict what will happen 5 years down the line, when it comes to low inflation. But when it comes to high inflation, it is not hard to predict at all what will come 5 years down the line. Right?
    22 Dec 2012, 11:11 PM Reply Like
  • diadochi
    , contributor
    Comments (231) | Send Message
     
    He has faith to guide him, and thus knows more than the bond market. But you wouldn't understand as you are a godless heathen commie, come to think about it I don't understand either.
    23 Dec 2012, 10:01 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Makes sense now.
    23 Dec 2012, 10:18 PM Reply Like
  • Aristiphones
    , contributor
    Comments (1327) | Send Message
     
    "read my lips no new taxes." i love it actually. They really are going to tell Washington to go to hell! Good luck funding your Agency without a budget. The Democrats can't run a lemonade stand. They're going to run HHS without a budget? hahahahahahaha. my understanding is "they have enough money until March." and that's it. "the borrowing authority runs out and they have to go to Congress for an increase in the debt limit." The Republicans are so spot on on this ("it's about the spending, stupid") i find it amazing that the same Democrats who complain about the war spending (hello! we've EXPANDED the war effort under Obama) are now complaining that "we're not spending enough on the poor people." Guns and butter left wingers! You couldn't make your choices under LBJ...and you can't make it now. And guess what..."now's when you need the money." This is how we learn to work together. The rhetoric has been absolutely ignorant on the left on the way Washington works. Dem's don't work with Repub's out of choice...this is done as a matter of necessity. THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T FUNCTION UNLESS THERE IS COMPROMISE. And now "the chickens are coming home to roost" indeed. What the Fed is doing is ILLEGAL. Worse still....not passing a budget for an Agency with a trillion dollar budget? GROSS NEGLIGENCE. Good luck funding Obama-care. The Postal Service racked up 20 billion in losses this year. Social Security and Medicare are the only two programs that pay for themselves. "Go ahead...raid them." that includes you Republicrat! See what happens on election day when that retirement age is massively increased "in the name of country." I still remember those Gray Panthers attacking Dan Rostenkowski. Ah, the good 'ol days.
    24 Dec 2012, 12:30 AM Reply Like
  • Aristiphones
    , contributor
    Comments (1327) | Send Message
     
    that with returns going on over a decade now pension funds that have actuarial assumptions running above 7% are simply part of the "lunatic fringe of finance." when you're running TRILLION dollar deficits "macro nut" do you think the "appropriate rate of interest" is 7 percent? We'd be bankrupt in a week if that happened. Hence "rigged market." Glad you're a supporter of course.
    24 Dec 2012, 12:35 AM Reply Like
  • Aristiphones
    , contributor
    Comments (1327) | Send Message
     
    well they did buy Obama's election too...so it's not like it's a question of "partisanship." I mean you don't honestly believe he cares about us little people do you?
    24 Dec 2012, 12:37 AM Reply Like
  • Aristiphones
    , contributor
    Comments (1327) | Send Message
     
    Hitler comes to my mind as well. Especially when it's the "same clowns running fiscal policy in Germany in the 20's that are running fiscal policy in the USA today."
    24 Dec 2012, 12:38 AM Reply Like
  • Bigfloridafish
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    You are not kidding that was one heck of a compromise, so what have the Repubs compromised on? Boehner tried the million dollar compromise and it was no as always. Just go of the cliff, how stupid thats going to make Republicans since they agreed on it.
    24 Dec 2012, 11:56 AM Reply Like
  • Terry330
    , contributor
    Comments (867) | Send Message
     
    Republicans are going the way of Kodak.
    22 Dec 2012, 08:36 AM Reply Like
  • wyostocks
    , contributor
    Comments (8242) | Send Message
     
    terry
    For four years I read from your ilk that the Bush tax cuts were only for the "rich". Now if we don't extend them 99% will be impacted. So they really did help the little guy after all.
    More proof of your democratic pals lying again.
    22 Dec 2012, 08:49 AM Reply Like
  • HoldAndBuyInvestor
    , contributor
    Comments (146) | Send Message
     
    Terry, Seekingalpha is not a place where you should profile pics like yours. I guess you are liberal. Next, USA is going way of Kodak under leadership of Obama.
    22 Dec 2012, 01:59 PM Reply Like
  • danf
    , contributor
    Comments (735) | Send Message
     
    Perhaps you are right. Making way for a new libertarian coalition ? One that says, yes, there is no consensus in America today about what is right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral. But there can be a consensus about freedom and liberty. I want to be free. I want to be free more than I want prosperity. I dont want you or anyone else to tell me what to think, believe or how to live. I want to be free. That means the government must shrink - dramatically. That means each of the 50 states must be free to go in their own direction without having rules imposed on them by foreign rulers living in far away cities. That way you can live in a state that suits you, pay the taxes and offer the benefits that suit you and I can move to a state that suits me. The original dream of America was that we could so limit national government that we could all be safely indifferent to it.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:08 PM Reply Like
  • kmi
    , contributor
    Comments (4041) | Send Message
     
    Obama could very well sit pretty and simply do nothing, since it's the Republicans who can't get a bill through the House. And, of course, the sequestration is actually more damaging to Republican agendas than Democrat ones.

     

    So, unfortunately for them, but its the Repubs who will bear the entire burden of the fiscal cliff.

     

    No one wants to see the tax increases go through but if there's no bill on Obama's desk for him to sign - or not - it's pretty clear who failed.
    22 Dec 2012, 08:38 AM Reply Like
  • bbrady413
    , contributor
    Comments (757) | Send Message
     
    Well it is obviously the Senate. The House has passed several tax cutting bills and budgets, yet Harry Reid refuses to bring them up for a vote in the Senate.

     

    The only reason it will be clear that the Republicans failed is because the liberal mainstream media will blame the Republicans until they're blue in the face.

     

    The Republicans should bear 1/3 of the blame since they control the House, then the Dems should bear the other 2/3 considering they control the Senate and White House.
    22 Dec 2012, 08:42 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    I agree. When I was a kid and mom and dad wouldn't let me have my way, I always thought I was responsible only for 1/3 of the blame.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:07 AM Reply Like
  • Remyngton
    , contributor
    Comments (354) | Send Message
     
    Harry Reid is a disgrace

     

    He's been sitting on that bill for 5 months and won't let it come to the floor
    22 Dec 2012, 11:00 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Exactly. In the mean time Boehner has been allowing any and every Senate bill to come to the floor of the House. This is so unfair.
    22 Dec 2012, 12:27 PM Reply Like
  • danf
    , contributor
    Comments (735) | Send Message
     
    I'm not sure that is the way legislation works is it ? As I understand it, bills relating to revenue must originate in the house. Has the democratic caucus in the house offered up any bills ?
    22 Dec 2012, 11:11 PM Reply Like
  • JohnDavid1967
    , contributor
    Comments (8) | Send Message
     
    Hmmm, by your logic then, maybe the Republicans should vote on the plan put forth by the President and the Senate. I mean, after all, they "control" 2/3 of the government. Oh, wait, that means it's kinda the republicans fault... so, I guess maybe that is not a good idea after all...
    23 Dec 2012, 05:19 AM Reply Like
  • kmi
    , contributor
    Comments (4041) | Send Message
     
    "I'm not sure that is the way legislation works is it ? As I understand it, bills relating to revenue must originate in the house. Has the democratic caucus in the house offered up any bills ?"

     

    danf, yes, revenue starts in the House. However, there is generally no reason for the minority to offer up a bill unless the majority, i.e. currently the Republicans, fail. So, unless Boehner pulls a rabbit out of his hat and magically comes up with a passable bill, it is indeed likely that the miority in the House will produce something.

     

    More interestingly, I suspect that House Republicans are actually in favor of the sequestration. I suspect the issue is less about taxing $1m+ is fair and appropriate and more about forcing the government towards a smaller budget and fiscal responsibility.

     

    It's a pretty painful approach of course by forcing the economy into recession, but I also suspect House Republicans in favor of the sequestration already see they have zero negotiating power here, and will try and use the debt ceiling as leverage.

     

    Scorched earth politics.

     

    A minority of House Republicans are going to burn everyone - and most especially the reputation of the Republican party, since Republicans will bear the brunt of the blame for the failure to compromise - with increased tax burden and spending reductions in order to achieve their goal of smaller government.

     

    I expect the sequestration to initially pass in full, with eventual small adjustments made: middle class tax cuts for Obama, in exchange for perhaps some spending reform. And this will come during the debt ceiling vote, not before.
    23 Dec 2012, 07:04 AM Reply Like
  • Aristiphones
    , contributor
    Comments (1327) | Send Message
     
    my understanding is the cuts are automatic...20% across the board...starting January 1. The Republicans will be seen as HEROES if this thing goes down. The only thing the Federal Government produces is debt. TRILLIONS of it. The days of "Cold War largesse bought and paid for"" are so far behind us no one on the left even knows it ever existed. We had a DRAFT back in those days! But of course "we really haven't been at war the past 11 years. In fact we've just been having a good time sipping hot-totties and tell stories about our time fighting the Mau-mau in Namibia."
    24 Dec 2012, 12:43 AM Reply Like
  • bgold1955
    , contributor
    Comments (2102) | Send Message
     
    I believe an agreement will be made before year end. If not and it requires a massive market sell off for them to reach an agreement, I predict Republicans will lose the house in 2014. Always thought a divided situation was best to keep both in check, however, after August 2011 and possible early 2013 fiasco, perhaps I am wrong. The August 2011 deficit debacle helped Democrats take additional seats in both Senate and House this year, IMO.

     

    Absolutely ridiculous.
    22 Dec 2012, 08:49 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    A divided situation is just plain horrible. Republicans can't even pass their own bills. We need grownups in politics not wannabes.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:01 AM Reply Like
  • robgra
    , contributor
    Comments (378) | Send Message
     
    I think we should demand that ALL of them, Democrats, Republicans and the President and Vice President all resign and NEVER be allowed to seek public office again. Then maybe we can elect a new batch that can actually represent the rest of us.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:23 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Trouble is, these guys ARE actually representing the rest of "us". There is a big segment of the population that do not want the rich folks to pay more taxes, and also want to guy SS and Medicare so that the poor and the middle class are severely impacted. So the Republicans are just doing what their constituents want them to do.

     

    The trouble is in the tricameral system. The House, the Senate, and the Presidency all can want different things. We need a simple system where there is one decision making body, no one can vote out of party lines, and one party rules at any given point in time. Like say the British Parliamentary system. Otherwise you get the current gridlock.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:42 AM Reply Like
  • marketwatcher23
    , contributor
    Comments (1001) | Send Message
     
    Maybe they are all in total agreement. Maybe they all want us to go off the cliff? Maybe they know we need to reduce spending and raise revenue?
    22 Dec 2012, 10:45 AM Reply Like
  • robgra
    , contributor
    Comments (378) | Send Message
     
    The Republican party appears to have forgotten anything it ever knew about the value of tactics and pragmatism. They lost a few seats (unexpectedly) in 2012, and will lose their majority in 2014.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:05 AM Reply Like
  • robgra
    , contributor
    Comments (378) | Send Message
     
    You're probably right. They know what needs to be done, but can't see any other way to do it and still get re-elected.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:07 AM Reply Like
  • bgold1955
    , contributor
    Comments (2102) | Send Message
     
    Macro..... Imagine what corporate balance sheets would look like if there were no FICA obligations and no expense for health care for employees. It's difficult to compete globally on a long term basis with these expenses thus we have off shoring of jobs.

     

    Both FICA and health insurance must be provided for all in order to have a healthy capitalistic environment. How its paid for needs to be addressed. I don't have the answers but as a prior business owner I do understand the problems. It is especially frustrating when gov't spends excess of SS receipts vs payment obligations ever year. In 2023, latest estimate, obligations will be more than receipts. By raising age for eligibility does not solve the problem when they keep spending the excess. These problems can be resolved if both parties would work together.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:11 AM Reply Like
  • marketwatcher23
    , contributor
    Comments (1001) | Send Message
     
    Between their free healthcare for life and years of worry free insider trading on non public information my guess is they are all relatively well set up in case they get bounced out.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:11 AM Reply Like
  • anonymous#12
    , contributor
    Comments (552) | Send Message
     
    "Imagine what corporate balance sheets would look like if there were no FICA obligations and no expense for health care for employees"...

     

    Don't stop there....imagine if companies didn't needed to pay wages at all! Balance sheets would be phenomenal! Imagine if companies didn't needed to obey regulations and could just dump toxic waste without paying fines. Profits would boom! Capitalist utopia!
    22 Dec 2012, 11:39 AM Reply Like
  • bgold1955
    , contributor
    Comments (2102) | Send Message
     
    Anonymous...... My intent was not pro-corporation, although I understand you taking it that way. Intent was more balanced and perhaps point out why we will always have 2 parties that can't agree on anything as long as we have business paying things that they can make issue with. We need business and business needs consumers. Would just like a little thought go towards a win win approach as I know one is out there. As I mentioned, I don't have the answers just seeking them as what we are going through now continues to divide our country.
    22 Dec 2012, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    May be they know we need a Greater Depression? May be they know deliverance comes from suffering? May be they are into self-inflicted pain?
    22 Dec 2012, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    This is exactly why I think the Tea Party has been the best thing for America in a long time. A long term Dem controlled House and Senate and Presidency is what the Tea Party is carefully engineering. I salute these patriots.
    22 Dec 2012, 12:29 PM Reply Like
  • marketwatcher23
    , contributor
    Comments (1001) | Send Message
     
    The depression is coming. You want it now or worse later?
    22 Dec 2012, 12:32 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    bgold, I agree with you that Universal health care is manna from heaven for corporates. But you also have to understand one thing. Accepting anything Obama has done is not OK. If Romney passed universal health care, for example, it might have been OK. But not when Obama passes it. Working together is fine, and Obama should work with the Republicans. But I don't think Republicans should work together with Obama. If you do not agree with me just ask the Tea Party Patriots.
    22 Dec 2012, 12:35 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    I think the Tea Party patriots do have the answers. By taking a stance that the rich shouldn't pay more taxes but the poor should get their spending cut, they are helping pave the way for a 2014 Democrat House. This will be good for the country and the Tea Party Patriots understand this which is why they didn't vote for Plan B.
    22 Dec 2012, 12:36 PM Reply Like
  • Ray Lopez
    , contributor
    Comments (1529) | Send Message
     
    But it's been proven, mathematically (Ken Arrow among others) that you cannot have a non-gridlock voting system--it's impossible. If you eliminate today's gridlock on one issue you'll inexorably get another gridlock later.
    22 Dec 2012, 03:48 PM Reply Like
  • danf
    , contributor
    Comments (735) | Send Message
     
    2 years is a long way off. But maybe you are right and the democrats will control it all in 2014, just like they did in 2009. What would your dream team do with that power ? Do you think they would finally be able to read out a budget as law requires ? Here is the sad little secret. Democrats want to spend money. It has to be borrowed, if it cannot be borrowed, it has to be taken from the middle class - The rich dont have enough to satisfy government spending desires. The bush tax cuts for the middle class have to go because that is where the money is.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:20 PM Reply Like
  • danf
    , contributor
    Comments (735) | Send Message
     
    The founders were a lot wiser than you. Governments are the main threat to freedom and liberty. We have gridlock, because we have disagreement. We could go to the gun to settle things. But this is a better way I think.

     

    What we really have is a consequence of decades and decades of gerrymandering that render most seats "safe". If you really wanted to see change - you would have a computer draw congressional districts that enclosed populations based only on populations and nothing else. You would return to the way it was 100 years ago and have senators elected by state legislatures pledged to represent the interests of the state.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:30 PM Reply Like
  • danf
    , contributor
    Comments (735) | Send Message
     
    You can imagine anything you like. Contrary to what you might think. In a free society, employers pay what they must to engage the labor they need and their aim is to make a profit. That means if you do not add more value than you cost, you will not be employed. The cost of having you as an employee is not simply the wages that show up in your check. Thanks to your government, you are much, much more expensive than that. These days you are being forced to compete with the labor of billions of new, ambitious, hardworking entrants to the labor market around the globe. Naturally you don't like that. You dont care if its good for them, you only care that its difficult for you. The way out for you is to create a business, make your own way
    22 Dec 2012, 11:43 PM Reply Like
  • JohnDavid1967
    , contributor
    Comments (8) | Send Message
     
    Yes, Yes, and Yes. This.

     

    Capitalism in it's purest form would eventually concentrate all wealth to a very select minority of people. That is why we have regulations, unions, redistribution, etc. Don't misunderstand me. I think it is kind of like Democracy. They are both horrible systems filled with problems. But, they are still FAR better than any other system out there...
    23 Dec 2012, 05:02 AM Reply Like
  • Mike Maher
    , contributor
    Comments (2616) | Send Message
     
    The so called Plan B bill wasn't going to make it through the Senate, and would have been vetoed by the President. Harry Reid and President Obama stated both those facts publicly. The failure of the bill to pass the House is an indication Boehner will likely be forced out as Speaker, but its not an indication that republicans are raising everyones taxes. Why would House republicans go on record voting for a bill that had 0% of a chance of becoming law?

     

    If you remember, the Supreme Court decision allowing Obamacare to stand, said it was legal as a tax. That is the true tax increase. This Plan B failure is political theater.
    22 Dec 2012, 09:36 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    I agree. The real issue is universal health care which needs to be repealed. If the economy collapses from the fiscal cliff nonsense, so be it. The two highest priorities for Republicans should be to impeach Obama for having the nerve to win a second term, and repeal universal health care. We do not want all Americans to have access to health care. Some should die in the streets. That way everyone has skin in the game.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:10 AM Reply Like
  • bgold1955
    , contributor
    Comments (2102) | Send Message
     
    I believe Boehner will remain Speaker as Plan B was political theater in an attempt to imply they will not approve any tax increase even with an AGI of 1 million. Didn't and will not work. They need to resolve this problem or lose relevance.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:22 AM Reply Like
  • robgra
    , contributor
    Comments (378) | Send Message
     
    It was still tactical stupidity of the first order for the Republican house to reject the bill. Instead of being able to claim that they had passes a reasonable compromise (which it was), and then be able to blame the Democratic Senate and the President when it failed, they instead hung the mantle of defenders of millionaires (at the expense of a potential economic collapse) around their own shoulders, and added to the impression that they are not competent to govern.

     

    Now we return to kick-the-can, and govern by crisis for the foreseeable future. I see no reason whatsoever to return my congressman (a Republican) to his long held seat in 2014.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:30 AM Reply Like
  • Mike Maher
    , contributor
    Comments (2616) | Send Message
     
    How many Americans were dying in the streets before the health care law? Your comment missed my real point, which was that the failure of Boehner to get his plan B passed doesnt really matter, since the plan B bill had no shot at becoming law. Both sides are grandstanding, and it is the public that will suffer.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:40 AM Reply Like
  • Michael Clark
    , contributor
    Comments (8862) | Send Message
     
    The problem with universal health care is that it can't work until the health-care bubble is popped first. How do you pop the health-care cost bubble? Well, it's insurance that has made the price of health-care in America to go through the roof. Having HC insurance, you better use it, right? Unnecessary surgeries; unnecessary treatments...

     

    I want all Americans to have access to health care -- but not in the current system which is not working -- not with increases of premiums of 10% per year for the last 10 years.

     

    We need to POP bubbles, not create more bubbles. Bernanke is about creating and preserving bubbles. Pop bubbles and bring prices back down to earth. That's what deflation is for. Without this deflation process, nothing will work.

     

    How do you pop bubbles? Only one way: higher interest rates.
    22 Dec 2012, 12:16 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    If no Americans were dying in the streets, what can we do to ensure that? Perhaps cut foodstamps for kids and give that money to the military to buy more F-35s? Like the bill the Tea Party Patriots passed on Thursday night?
    22 Dec 2012, 12:38 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    I agree. We need a really good Depression with something like 50% unemployment. Only then will people realize that there is no free lunch. Growth will slow, people will lower their aspirations, GDP will drop below that of the BRIC nations etc. America will lose its global power. That's really what we need. The EU is providing us with a great template to do that, for example in Spain. Let's follow them!

     

    But instead we keep on chasing policies that grows the GDP and lowers unemployment. For shame!
    22 Dec 2012, 12:40 PM Reply Like
  • marketwatcher23
    , contributor
    Comments (1001) | Send Message
     
    when does the titanic slide back off the iceberg and start sinking in earnest?
    22 Dec 2012, 09:38 AM Reply Like
  • robgra
    , contributor
    Comments (378) | Send Message
     
    Jan 3, 2013.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:31 AM Reply Like
  • june1234
    , contributor
    Comments (2689) | Send Message
     
    Stop gap is right; any final will just slow the growth a little. Depending on which numbers you go with any final deal will shave between $250 to $500 billion off next yrs GDP number which will be lower than this years GDP which was lower than 2011 which was lower than 10's.

     

    Recent photos of Boehner are that of a dead man walking. He tried; booted tea partiers from key committees. He's up for reelection for house speaker Jn3rd; 1rst knife he will feel in his back will be Cantors who is all smiles these days.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:47 AM Reply Like
  • Michael Clark
    , contributor
    Comments (8862) | Send Message
     
    Nothing sacred about GDP. GDP has become a fake yardstick. If the consumers and the corporations don't spend, then the government spends to try to pretend that the economy is GROWING. Spending is not growth. Spending is only growth in spending. If you are taking on more debt to spend to satisfy the idea of GDP growth, then you are assinine -- and you are digging your own grave. The economy is not growing even if GDP is growing if the growth is fueled by more debt.

     

    We can't have organic growth again -- real spending increase -- until we empty the glass of consumer and corporate debt first. This is the stage Bernanked (and all the central bankers of the world are trying to avoid); but you can't add more water to a full glass (filled with debt) -- if you do, you get a flood -- which is what ZIRP gives us.

     

    Our economy CANNOT grow until we destroy our full cup of debt. And that is going to be painful, no matter how or when it happens.

     

    There is nothing wrong with debt as long as debt begins to become more expensive when the business cycle expansion ends (2001). It is evil to make debt less expensive when the business cycle expansion ends, because the goal is to sucker people into more debt when the economy is starting to contract.
    22 Dec 2012, 12:04 PM Reply Like
  • HoldAndBuyInvestor
    , contributor
    Comments (146) | Send Message
     
    It will get extended and US will get a downgrade. Borrowing cost will rise and a newer budget with deficit and higher borrowing cost will be seen. Obama will spend even more.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:53 AM Reply Like
  • rheimerl
    , contributor
    Comments (392) | Send Message
     
    its time to lock the chidren in a room and not let them out until there is an agreement... i voted for mitt and lost so some tax increases at say 500k plus are whats needed to compromise..prob is the dems have never seen a dollar they dont want to spend....
    22 Dec 2012, 11:05 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Exactly. Republicans voted to cut food stamps for kids to save the dollars. Now, some detractors may argue that they turned around and spent those dollars on the military to buy F-35s, but I think we should all ignore Republican spending. Otherwise the argument that Republicans are for fiscal conservatism will collapse and we can't have that.
    22 Dec 2012, 12:43 PM Reply Like
  • jayasbury
    , contributor
    Comments (32) | Send Message
     
    This is not a political statement. It is absolutely amazing to me that the folks lambasting the Rs for not taking up a bill that was rejected across the board before anyone had seen it, have not even attempted to address the Nations real Issue of spending. We spend $ every second of the day we don't have. In fact we spend one trillion dollars every year that we don't have and the party in power does not put forth ANY proposal for reduced spending. Take all the $ away from the people making over one million and it will not make a dent in the deficit.. From what I read, the Ds will not consider any reduction to true entitlements and I am not talking about programs that people have contributed to all their lives. The solution should be pretty simple. The Rs agree to raise 5 trillion in new revenue over 10 years and the Ds agree to reduce spending by 5 trillion over 10 years. Boom bang bam mission accomplished. New outlook on life in America. This solution would be easy for folks whose first priority was this Country and not themselves or their "party.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:08 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    And a Greater Depression too with $5B new taxes and $5B less spending. Can't wait for that one! Can someone say Hoover?
    22 Dec 2012, 12:44 PM Reply Like
  • JohnBinTN
    , contributor
    Comments (3816) | Send Message
     
    What is your solution? Raise taxes on the rich, and increase spending on the "poor"? Can you walk me through how that will solve our fiscal problems?
    22 Dec 2012, 09:54 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    My solution? Well, cut military spending to the bare bones, use that to partially fund social spending, and raise taxes on the rich to fund the rest.also, remove the cap on FICA taxes but means test all SS payments. Problem solved.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:14 PM Reply Like
  • JohnBinTN
    , contributor
    Comments (3816) | Send Message
     
    I did the math on that solution... We'd have one guy on each coast with a slingshot and a cell phone, the rich would all live in warmer climates outside of US jurisdiction. The cap raise on FICA taxes and means testing would be moot points, as those above the current cap would be getting a tan somewhere in a country that wanted to have their money in THEIR jurisdiction.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:38 PM Reply Like
  • rheimerl
    , contributor
    Comments (392) | Send Message
     
    ps.. where the dems come up with this 250k number as being wealthy is hog wash...
    22 Dec 2012, 11:10 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Exactly. As the Tea Party Patriots pointed out, even people making a million a year are not wealthy.
    22 Dec 2012, 12:45 PM Reply Like
  • Teutonic Knight
    , contributor
    Comments (2061) | Send Message
     
    I would say the chances of Mr. Obama's 'Plan C' being passed are next to nil, for the same reason that 'Plan B' was canceled.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • wyostocks
    , contributor
    Comments (8242) | Send Message
     
    To cut through all the bull--We need a plan to implement tax increases and spending cuts or we go over the cliff which will destroy the economy and hurt the masses; if we don't get such a plan, tax increases and spending cuts will take effect anyway.

     

    Only in Washington.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:52 AM Reply Like
  • marketwatcher23
    , contributor
    Comments (1001) | Send Message
     
    It's almost like they are doing it on purpose eh?
    22 Dec 2012, 11:55 AM Reply Like
  • Michael Clark
    , contributor
    Comments (8862) | Send Message
     
    We need higher taxes on the rich AND spending cuts. Debt is the enemy (private debt even more than public debt). That's why we need higher interest rates also.

     

    Let the fiscal cliff kick in. Let's go over the fiscal cliff. We need to begin facing reality some time.

     

    Oh, yes. Force Bernanke into retirement.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:57 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    We should pass a Constitutional Amendment that guarantees a Greater Depression. Otherwise we will never learn.
    22 Dec 2012, 12:46 PM Reply Like
  • Ray Lopez
    , contributor
    Comments (1529) | Send Message
     
    Correct. And David Stockman for president. It's been pointed out by a think tank pundit, name escapes me, that with borrow-and-spend Republican policies, you get bigger government because the taxpayers don't immediately "feel the pain" of more government spending, only the benefits, so they approve of more government (think Bush, 2nd term). Their children feel the pain but most people don't worry too much about that. So we need both higher taxes and spending cuts. One reason btw Stockman quit the Reagan Republicans--he saw this clearly but was overruled.
    22 Dec 2012, 03:53 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    We should maintain military spending though, right?
    22 Dec 2012, 06:05 PM Reply Like
  • woodyj
    , contributor
    Comments (48) | Send Message
     
    Has everyone forgotten that 8 years of bush tax cuts for the rich and bush attacks on sovereign nations with wars of choice took a budget surplus given to him by Clinton and turned it into trillions of dollars of debt handed over to Obama????
    22 Dec 2012, 02:12 PM Reply Like
  • woodyj
    , contributor
    Comments (48) | Send Message
     
    Another thing, What about the no tax increase pledges signed by the republicans in office for the head of the republican party, grover norquist. Make that King norquist. They must have had a crystal ball that enabled them to predict the future for years to come and concluded that there would never be a need for tax increases. Would someone please have them all committed to an insane asylum to reduce further harm to the people of this country.
    22 Dec 2012, 02:22 PM Reply Like
  • The EconomicJoker
    , contributor
    Comments (961) | Send Message
     
    While you guys are arguing about parties, they both are corrupt cronies who suck money from anything they touch. You talk as if they are worth anything. They are not. They all need to voted out of office and replaced with a bucket of sand.

     

    Wake up and start voting everyone out.

     

    Come together and screw politicians for once.
    22 Dec 2012, 10:55 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    I think the Tea Party Patriots are working very hard to get the Republicans voted out of power already. I salute them.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:16 PM Reply Like
  • jayasbury
    , contributor
    Comments (32) | Send Message
     
    I find it sort of amusing how folks without a point say stupid things like Bush's borrowing and spending policies when the last four years account for one third of our total national debt. Read my lips---5 trillion dollars--- and still no jobs and on the verge of who knows what (hopefully only a cliff). Why is it that we as Americans can not come together anymore? Why won't the Rs admit that new taxes are needed? Why won't the Ds agree that major spending cuts are needed? When everyone that can add and subtract knows this for an absolute fact.
    22 Dec 2012, 11:25 PM Reply Like
  • mattdaddy
    , contributor
    Comments (52) | Send Message
     
    I think Italy has a good idea, dissolve congress and relect them after we put term limits, reduced salaries and benefit reductions in place for them all. This job was not meant to be permanent but rather temporary by knowledgable people from the community. Our elected officials are out of touch with the people. They have no concept of what the middle and poor income people are going through, living paycheck to paycheck, moving from one place to another due to job layoffs, essentially starting over.

     

    We need to elect people who actually understand what is going on in the world, not within their political group. We need elected officials to work for the people and resolve issues fairly, justly and expediently.
    23 Dec 2012, 02:58 AM Reply Like
  • Humble Value Miner
    , contributor
    Comments (426) | Send Message
     
    Italy has this good idea, but so far it is still just an idea. The problem is that it is very difficult that they will reduce their own benefits and salaries, even if they promise this (before the elections).
    23 Dec 2012, 03:31 PM Reply Like
  • wyostocks
    , contributor
    Comments (8242) | Send Message
     
    Kind of like America.
    23 Dec 2012, 05:31 PM Reply Like
  • Bigfloridafish
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    Is'nt it funny that after the 2000 election when Bush was handed a budget surplus and laws to keep it that way the Republicans came out on a platform that deficits don't matter. Cheney still says that deficits do not matter, Bush agreed, Paul O'Neill did not and got fired. Obama takes over still having to pay for the wars and now Republicans scream deficits matter so which way is it ? How many balance budget bills did Republicans put on the floor during the years they had full control of the House and Senate someone please post the links so I can see the vote totals. Thanks.
    23 Dec 2012, 03:02 AM Reply Like
  • Bigfloridafish
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    Still waiting, can anyone answer this ?
    23 Dec 2012, 05:47 PM Reply Like
  • chopchop0
    , contributor
    Comments (3536) | Send Message
     
    9/11?

     

    The aftermath of the repeal of glass Steagall coupled with Alan Greenspan's bubbles?
    23 Dec 2012, 08:58 PM Reply Like
  • marketdaddy
    , contributor
    Comments (65) | Send Message
     
    For the "Tax the Rich" crowd:

     

    BAR STOOL ECONOMICS - A lesson in "Fair"

     

    Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

     

    The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
    The fifth would pay $1.
    The sixth would pay $3.
    The seventh would pay $7.
    The eighth would pay $12.
    The ninth would pay $18.
    The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

     

    So, that's what they decided to do.

     

    The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until on day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20."Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

     

    The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

     

    And so:

     

    The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
    The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
    The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
    The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
    The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
    The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

     

    Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

     

    "I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

     

    "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!"

     

    "That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

     

    "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

     

    The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

     

    The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

     

    And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

     

    David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
    Professor of Economics
    University of Georgia

     

    For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
    23 Dec 2012, 07:10 AM Reply Like
  • kmi
    , contributor
    Comments (4041) | Send Message
     
    Cute, but it doesn't transfer to the real world.

     

    It assumes stagnant financial mobility, and that 'beer consumed' is the same over a long period of time, and that each individual drinks the same amount.... etc etc on the assumptions.

     

    But it is cute, and I can see how it would confuse people very readily into buying what it sells.
    23 Dec 2012, 07:50 AM Reply Like
  • Bigfloridafish
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    Sure did'nt work that way under Clinton when rich CEOs were posting record profits and unemployment was 4.5% Sonuds more like a Republican spin on trying to cover up greed.
    23 Dec 2012, 08:56 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Excellent post. We need a flat tax. Not a flat percentage tax, mind you. A flat tax in dollar amounts. So, the Federal budget is about $3.5 Trillion, the population is around 350 Million, so we need a flat tax of around $10k per head. So, if a family of four makes the median wage of $45k, the Federal tax on them should be $40k. Plus they will have to pay for state taxes and sales taxes and local taxes etc. That's the only fair way. When we go out to have beer with friends, we split the tab equally because that's fair. Why shouldn't we do the same when it comes to running the country?

     

    Tea Party Patriots should run on this platform in 2014, and force all other Republicans to run on the same platform as well. A flat tax of $10k per head is the only way to go irrespective of how much a person makes. If anyone doesn't understand, tell them the beer story.
    23 Dec 2012, 10:04 AM Reply Like
  • wyostocks
    , contributor
    Comments (8242) | Send Message
     
    marketdaddy

     

    "For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible. "

     

    That says all that can be said. Libs will never "get it".
    23 Dec 2012, 10:10 AM Reply Like
  • berbno1
    , contributor
    Comments (1379) | Send Message
     
    classic conservative babble...old & bogus. Wm. Buckley took considerable criticism over ten years ago for referencing this viral internet email w/o verifying its authenticity. But the internet debunking does provide for some comic relief.
    23 Dec 2012, 10:11 AM Reply Like
  • woodyj
    , contributor
    Comments (48) | Send Message
     
    Your immense ego is showing. Get a grip
    23 Dec 2012, 10:50 AM Reply Like
  • woodyj
    , contributor
    Comments (48) | Send Message
     
    where did you get that brilliant quote?
    23 Dec 2012, 10:52 AM Reply Like
  • bgold1955
    , contributor
    Comments (2102) | Send Message
     
    Just crossed off University of Georgia as a potential for my grandson with ignorant, biased, irrelevant, and inaccurate essay from The Professor of Economics. What a freak of twisted biasness. They actually pay you at the University? Scary.
    23 Dec 2012, 01:04 PM Reply Like
  • wyostocks
    , contributor
    Comments (8242) | Send Message
     
    bgold
    The fact that you will make the decision for your grandson and not him making a decision for himself (or at least his parents) just indicates your liberal mind; you know what is best for everyone.
    23 Dec 2012, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • berbno1
    , contributor
    Comments (1379) | Send Message
     
    Bgold- that's a pretty knee jerk reaction and another example of taking info off the internet as being factual. This was a bogus internet email...google it. It was attributed to any number of economist over 10 yrs ago. UGA was a great education for our daughters
    23 Dec 2012, 02:02 PM Reply Like
  • caupachow
    , contributor
    Comments (415) | Send Message
     
    I'll never read another comment by terry330 or macro investor.
    23 Dec 2012, 10:04 AM Reply Like
  • Guardian3981
    , contributor
    Comments (2086) | Send Message
     
    Republicans are playing a political game, they have admitted they do not want taxes to go up for middle class Americans, so why don't they vote for it?
    23 Dec 2012, 11:19 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    What about the rich? If the Republicans do not stand up for the rich who are so oppressed in the USA, who will?
    23 Dec 2012, 11:39 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Perhaps Obama should do it Mitt Romney style.
    http://bit.ly/TgO7oZ
    23 Dec 2012, 12:26 PM Reply Like
  • papayamon
    , contributor
    Comments (1185) | Send Message
     
    food for the hungry? i don't see too many hungry people, to be honest. i see tons of lazy ones with a sense of entitlement. this is not a dig at those who are trying to work and need assistance temporarily. this is a dig at those who sit on their asses and look at every program as a permanent subsidy without ever making an effort to improve themselves.

     

    people whine that food stamps "aren't enough"... as though you're supposed to be able to eat 100% on the government dole. food stamps should supplement the money you earn by actually working.

     

    what's destroying the american way of life is the overhead of carrying so much dead weight. it's the enemy from within, and the biggest challenge our society faces.

     

    yes, raise taxes on the wealthy.. and also cut entitlements to the lazy. is the fiscal cliff such a bad thing?
    23 Dec 2012, 01:35 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    The fiscal cliff will plunge the nation back into recession and raise unemployment to 10%. That has to be a wonderful thing. At least the lazy will be punished while 2 million more Americans lose their jobs. I have always been in favor of cutting off my nose to spite my face.
    23 Dec 2012, 02:06 PM Reply Like
  • papayamon
    , contributor
    Comments (1185) | Send Message
     
    maybe there's more than a bit of fear mongering about the fiscal cliff. is it really going to "plunge"? or maybe it's just going to reset that taxes are a certain amount and entitlements are a certain amount.. and free enterprise should handle the rest.

     

    any "deal" is just prolonging and expanding deficit spending.
    23 Dec 2012, 02:15 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Well, there has been a bunch of independent economists who have calculated the impact of the fiscal cliff. But like you say, if we just think about GDP growth and employment and living the good life then we will just keep spending. A far better thing would be a Greater Depression with 50% unemployment. To get there all we have to do is raise interest rates to 10% and raise taxes on everyone while cutting all spending. While that won't balance the budget (as tax receipts will just drop with it and the budget deficit will actually go up, as the UK is now realizing), at least it will give us moral satisfaction from self-inflicted pain.
    23 Dec 2012, 02:21 PM Reply Like
  • kmi
    , contributor
    Comments (4041) | Send Message
     
    Fiscal cliff as a spending and deficit growth reducer is an interesting quandary.

     

    If indeed we go into recession as a result, more folks will be living on government programs. And since the books aren't even close to balanced now, what may actually happen is that recession will cause the government to borrow more to fund those social programs. And increase the debt rather than reduce it.

     

    Europe, where austerity/spending cuts were touted as the cure to profligate spending, would be the example we would be attempting to emulate. Under Bush/Obama, we labored under the belief the the US economy was resilient enough that with some stimulus we could cause growth. Up until not so long ago, a lot of folks suggested that stimulus/growth was the better strategy as we watched Europe implode over austerity/cuts.

     

    Personally, I believe that there's enough lard and pork in the US budget that there is room for cuts. But I also don't believe that austerity/recession will solve the debt problem, and will in fact more likely exacerbate it.

     

    And I have consistently suggested that encouraging consumption growth via growing both the size of the middle class as well as its income will be the ultimate solution. Bring more of the country's wealth down to the middle from the top and create more opportunity for the bottom to enter and want to stay in the middle. Broaden the tax base while encouraging increasing economic activity.
    23 Dec 2012, 07:23 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    The trick is to force the country into a recession and then ALSO cut the social safety net. That way, the people who lose their jobs can't be on Govt assistance. Yes, the tax base will fall, but that can be managed by some more cuts, and the downward cycle may continue. That's the only way. Anyone who knows anything about economics like the Tea Party Patriots will tell you so.
    23 Dec 2012, 10:21 PM Reply Like
  • papayamon
    , contributor
    Comments (1185) | Send Message
     
    why do we need to raise interest rates?

     

    if the rich pay a few more bucks, does that mean they're going to quit trying to make money? i don't see it. they were trying to make money when the economy boomed under clinton, when tax rates were what they'd go to now.

     

    and the helpless poor who need to be spoon fed their entire living? let them be cheap labor rather than dead weight deficit overhead. let them scramble to earn a living instead of sucking the life out of working people.

     

    it's fear mongering to decide this is the next great depression. it isn't. growth will resume after a period of adjustment. you can scream the sky is falling, but i think we're better off not spending money we don't have in the long run. can we borrow prosperity? really?

     

    what needs to be addressed is tax rates and spending. the cliff does both. that it's been puffed by the media as a "cliff" is the real disaster.
    23 Dec 2012, 02:31 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Trouble is, Milton Freidman, the doyen of the right wing Republican economists proved rather well that prosperity indeed can be "borrowed". But then what does he know? He merely got the Nobel Prize for being the father of monetary theory. If it doesn't work for individuals, then it must not work for the Govt.

     

    Anyway, I think Tea Party Patriots should definitely campaign on the premise of making slaves/cheap labor out of people who, for example, are getting unemployment benefits today. I hope they do so in 2014. We so need a Democrat House.

     

    The interest rates need to be raised as without that it is hard to have a good Greater Depression. You do not want the Feds to counter the good work done by Tea Party Patriots, now do you?

     

    Now, sarcasm aside, I do agree with you that raising taxes on the rich will not hurt economic activity one bit. The rich will just save less.
    23 Dec 2012, 02:37 PM Reply Like
  • Guardian3981
    , contributor
    Comments (2086) | Send Message
     
    There should be about 350 billion in combined spending cuts and tax increases for 2013, this amount would be enough to at least start moving in the right direction while low enough where we would just barely avoid recession.
    23 Dec 2012, 04:16 PM Reply Like
  • enigmaman
    , contributor
    Comments (2686) | Send Message
     
    Guard- Bowels Simpson wanted 3/1 ratio spending cuts to taxes, that was bipartisan, now we will be lucky to get 1/1 and to make matters worse Obama doubled the amount of revenue he said he wanted and refuses to accept revenue from tax reform, this is all about smacking the rich upside the head so he can strut his stuff, and nothing to do with any real reform, its all a ruse, he will bury us. There not even county the Obamacare taxes that will be paid in.
    23 Dec 2012, 06:57 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Can we impeach him for winning a second term?
    23 Dec 2012, 10:23 PM Reply Like
  • enigmaman
    , contributor
    Comments (2686) | Send Message
     
    Obama is all about a show, his request for tax on the rich is just to crow, has nothing to do whatsoever about fixing anything in the economy just because he thinks it needs to be done. Well lets look at history the luxury tax passed to make the rich pay just a little bit more to be FAIR, lets look at Luxury Tax (1990)

     

    Concept: "Luxury Tax" to make wealthy pay more taxes
    Plan: Price threshold for "luxury" items
    Cars: $30,000
    Boats: $100,000
    Aircraft: $25,000
    Jewelry and furs: $10,000
    Tax: 10% on part of price over threshold
    Projection: Raise $9 billion over 5 years
    History: Implemented in 1990
    What Actually Happened?
    Lots of Unintended Consequences
    Wealthy boat-buyers simply bought boats overseas
    U.S. boat sales collapsed
    at least 7,600 boat-building jobs lost in first year
    Total job losses up to 30,000
    Government paid unemployment benefits to laid-off workers
    Boat tax yielded only $3 million in 1991
    Income tax and FICA revenue lost
    U.S. boat-building industry badly damaged
    Losses probably exceeded tax revenue
    Luxury tax repealed in 1993
    Did anybody think about what might happen?
    Almost certain result of static analysis will repeat with this stupid tax the rich ploy, but the Dem will sure feel good strutting around because they showed those rich people who is boss and that they need to pay their fair share. Stupid is as stupid does
    23 Dec 2012, 06:53 PM Reply Like
  • Bigfloridafish
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    Where were the Tea Baggers when Dick Cheney said deficits don't matter ? Oh now I remember all the borrowed money went to defense contractors who poured millions back into the Republican party so they would spend more money on a war that had to start, WMD's thats right I remember now.
    23 Dec 2012, 08:16 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    You are slowly getting it. That why the Tea Party Patriots on Thursday cut food stamps but then gave away the exact same money to the DoD. They know who is deserving of taxpayer dollars, hungry kids or the military industrial complex.
    23 Dec 2012, 10:25 PM Reply Like
  • The EconomicJoker
    , contributor
    Comments (961) | Send Message
     
    Look at all this BS. You're arguing with the very people you should be uniting with. Thes politicians are liars and crooks. Get rid of them and all parties. ALL OF THEM.
    23 Dec 2012, 10:48 PM Reply Like
  • floorboard
    , contributor
    Comments (25) | Send Message
     
    The first comment referred to the Republicans sabotaging the economy. Spending 1.2 trillion more a year is what does that.
    Giving the Democrats more money will not stop the problem for it will not stop the spending.
    23 Dec 2012, 10:58 PM Reply Like
  • Teutonic Knight
    , contributor
    Comments (2061) | Send Message
     
    Would someone please answer my straight question: Why do we need a deal? This isn't 'Let's Make a Deal' show on TV. The original 'Cliff' deal was agreed to and signed by the President into Law. Why do we need to change it for the sake of change.

     

    I know a lot media folks are looking for charge numbers after the November 6th election as their previous numbers had expired. But that does not justify an exercise in futility and eating up valuable resources on Congress to do useful work, such as energy and immigration policies.
    24 Dec 2012, 12:31 PM Reply Like
  • Bigfloridafish
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    Your right we don't need to make a deal, the deal was made. Will it have a impact on the economy, yes but more short term than long. It will create much needed revenue and it will make much needed spending cuts. The bigger problem I see is the Tea Party which came out yesterday said that they are willing to crash the economy into depression because just like a drunk you sometimes need to hit rock bottom. Even my Republican Representative said we need to get these people out of here. I have been a life long Republican but there is no way I could possibly go that far to the right I had to change to Independent. They are just making a total shambles of the Republican party.
    24 Dec 2012, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    BFF, That is why I think the Tea Party Patriots are the best thing to happen to this country in a long time. I have decided to switch my campaign contributions from the Democrats to the Tea party Patriots. They will make the Republican Party irrelevant if given a chance.

     

    I salute the Tea Party Patriots.
    24 Dec 2012, 04:58 PM Reply Like
  • Bigfloridafish
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    Well I may have to agree with you they will do that...LOL But I don't think they need any more money since the Koch brothers and Adelson are taking care of them.
    24 Dec 2012, 05:12 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    Every little bit helps. If I were Soros I would give free air time to all Tea Party Patriots so that they could get their message out to all Americans, that a crushing Depression is what they want to deliver to Americans as a Christmas gift.
    24 Dec 2012, 06:14 PM Reply Like
  • marketwatcher23
    , contributor
    Comments (1001) | Send Message
     
    Macro a crushing depression is coming regardless.
    26 Dec 2012, 08:14 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9050) | Send Message
     
    So the Tea Party Patriots should hurry it up and get that message out to the public.
    26 Dec 2012, 10:30 AM Reply Like
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