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More on the Chinese automobile market: The Fisker development is interesting with a report out...

More on the Chinese automobile market: The Fisker development is interesting with a report out from Bernstein indicating Chinese automakers are 10 years out from being globally competitive and with the smog situation in China so bad that switching to EV production is finally on the agenda of politicians. Though General Motors (GM), Volkswagen (VLKAY.PK), and Ford (F) have an edge in producing low-emission cars in the region, Chinese firms might be looking toward buying their way to being competitive.
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Comments (21)
  • psychobob
    , contributor
    Comments (5) | Send Message
     
    Why isn't more emphasis placed on natural gas vehicles in the United States? It is cheaper to run and clearner burning. I really question the logic of EV production. Electricity is NOT cheap.
    22 Feb 2013, 08:37 AM Reply Like
  • vallies
    , contributor
    Comments (351) | Send Message
     
    We have the EPA collecting and viewing data from watchdog.
    22 Feb 2013, 09:09 AM Reply Like
  • CEDUP
    , contributor
    Comments (232) | Send Message
     
    "Buy", Chinese gov't sponsored companies don't buy, they STEAL. Battery powered cars are STUPID. Where are the Hydrogen FUEL Cell stuff, or Natural Gas as mentioned. The U.S. is so falling out of the realm of being anything to matter. We need HELP, and it ain't coming from China. they will however clobber us in the next 20 years. Why is Germany doing well, with innovation, and keeping their factory running? Cus maybe they have a non criminal gov't, and people running things that have PRIDE of ownership, and pride in quality, innovation. They invented it all, they continue to THRIVE. Whilst we worry about Gay rights, and whether an Abortion matters. holy Shit are We STUPID! Can we let Germany run us, and show us the way?
    22 Feb 2013, 08:42 AM Reply Like
  • Tdot
    , contributor
    Comments (4989) | Send Message
     
    You do realize that "the Hydrogen Fuel Cell stuff" is just another electric vehicle, and that the fuel is liquid hydrogen at -400 degrees F, or heavily compressed hydrogen at 500+ psi. The fuel cell is essentially a battery, with hydrogen replacing other chemicals like the acid or alkaline.

     

    Compressed Natural gas vehicles are currently widely available on special order, and have been for decades. Nobody seems to want them, nobody seems to want to go to the trouble to refuel them, and the automakers are not in the business of building things that people don't want to buy.

     

    Plug-in Electric vehicles are about as simple and straightforward as you can get to routinely drive and recharge, and by average folks who do not have ready access to compressed natural gas or hydrogen. All they need is a place to plug it in when it is not being driven. In the US, plug-in charging stations outside of the home are becoming as common as parking meters, and they are rapidly growing in numbers.

     

    The others you mention are nightmares by comparison.
    22 Feb 2013, 09:30 AM Reply Like
  • vallies
    , contributor
    Comments (351) | Send Message
     
    Hydrogen prototypes are there. For now the push is on small engines with turbo. F adds 450 jobs in Ohio. 4 cylinder with turbo boost. The EPA decision will be out shortly on fracking emissions. We will have to wait and see. Trust me, I am hoping this turns out well, for I own BHI. I would rather them keep the Nat gas for industrial productions. Then repatriate foreign money, stop double taxing are exporters, expand the pie, crank up the rails, build the Keystone pipeline. If they did a couple simple things, this country could just boom, and bloom for decades to come. They should have called it anything but the "TAR SANDS". Do you think they would be pulling it from the sands if 90% of it was waste. I think Rubbermaid would be very happy if they did build it. Look at your dash board when you enter your car, is it made of cement. Speaking of autos, the report for the sales should be out Friday. The U.S. debt clock shows F at 278,365, GM at 236,406 and TM at 234,691. Last week, leading indicators shows the lagging indicators at .7, which is good.. We have GDP at 8.30 Thursday. Allot of Fed mfg out this week. Chicago PMI is out that day at 9.45. Monday we also have Chicago Fed National and Dallas Fed mfg. Housing data galore. Existing home sales were good. A lag is there.Tuesday at 9.00 FHFA and S&p Case Shiller. New home sales at 10.00. BEN SPEAKS, Tuesday . BIG,BIG,BIG week. March 27th is when it really kicks in. Italian elections. Good luck and have some dry powder. I own F.
    22 Feb 2013, 09:50 AM Reply Like
  • CEDUP
    , contributor
    Comments (232) | Send Message
     
    Battery or Hybrids are stupid, a Tesla that gets 80 miles before needing a recharge! And it costs how much? A Prius which is such a piece of shit ya don't want to drive it for $40K Are you for real? I can get an Audi with 2.0t that gets over 30mpg and is FUN, and drives for hundreds of miles between stops for gas. What use is a vehicle that goes 80 miles and ya wait how long to recharge it? Like a Chevy Volt and Prius, all a joke1 Of course Fuel cells are electric, but a much more efficient use than heavy battery. Hydrogen is in the air! A lot cheaper than recharging from a wall outlet! BMW VW, Benz are all working on it.
    23 Feb 2013, 11:59 AM Reply Like
  • Tdot
    , contributor
    Comments (4989) | Send Message
     
    Hydrogen is not in the air, except in trace amounts. If it is loose, it is quickly lost into space. Hydrogen is in water, but it is hard to extract.
    23 Feb 2013, 09:14 PM Reply Like
  • Tdot
    , contributor
    Comments (4989) | Send Message
     
    And everyone has been "working on it", and a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle will still cost you about a $1M tab today. The US government / taxpayers donated about $1B to construct a total of 20 prototype demonstrators by various manufacturers. Mercedes' F-Cell gets about 100 miles range at a maximum speed of 80 mph with all the hydrogen fuel it can carry in tanks at 10,000 psi.

     

    Plus there is all that volatile liquid hydrogen, at the equivalent cost of $6 per gallon. Plus the million dollar fuel cell deteriorates by a few percent per year, faster than the $5k Lithium or NiMH batteries.

     

    Yeahhhh.
    24 Feb 2013, 10:06 AM Reply Like
  • CEDUP
    , contributor
    Comments (232) | Send Message
     
    Did ya read the Times review an use on the Tesla car joke? I think they should also not be allowed to use Tesla name, Tesla actually did stuff that WORKED, and we still use it today. Battery powered cars, are we STUPID? YUP! Useless and not environmentally sound, the electricity to charge comes from where? O it just appears!
    22 Feb 2013, 08:45 AM Reply Like
  • jbilik
    , contributor
    Comments (15) | Send Message
     
    With China sitting on top of all that Lithium, they could probably execute the EV strategy more effectively compared to the US. Smog is a huge problem in the industrial areas of China, and the US is years ahead in pollution control technology. The trick now is keeping our tech to ourselves, and not let the knowledge be stolen along with our production. We need to focus on domestic production and returning the value of making things, along with the multiplier effect in the broad economy back within our borders. Canada and Mexico have much more to offer in partnership terms compared with China in the future.
    22 Feb 2013, 09:02 AM Reply Like
  • Raymondalpha
    , contributor
    Comments (76) | Send Message
     
    China doesn't have the world's largest Lithium deposit. Go and do a search for it. That deposit is in a South American country that is an American ally, so the U.S. will not have to buy from the Chinese.

     

    What is really limiting the U.S. research and development in electric vehicles is the grip of the big oil companies. They control the price of gas, and raises it to gain profits, even if the cost of oil drops. So we as a nation are slaves to big oil, not Government.
    22 Feb 2013, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • bibol11
    , contributor
    Comments (95) | Send Message
     
    The US does not have to worry about the Chinese stealing it. We almost always export the technologies. Set up plants and use their cheap labor to produce goods for our markets. Then will license
    our technologies. Apple produces a lot product parts over seas.
    22 Feb 2013, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • Tdot
    , contributor
    Comments (4989) | Send Message
     
    Huge difference in building and shipping millions of i-phones and small lithium batteries that weigh a few ounces each, each one having about a 500% markup, and an automobile which weighs a few thousand pounds with a 10% margin. Or a massive battery that weighs a few hundred pounds with little to no margin. The trend is to build and sell locally, or at least on the same continent, using cheap rail transportation, because the cost of shipping heavy items overseas starts to exceed the necessary margin.

     

    Toyota and Honda and others have been sharply reducing exports to the US and other major markets for decades, because it is far more profitable to build cars using local labor whenever possible. Of course Europe is sort of an outlier right now, with probably the costliest labor on the planet. But in the US, the "transplant" plants need not be unionized, especially in right to work states, and the cost to produce heavy industrial produts is far cheaper in such circumstances.

     

    Ford previously imported hybrid electric components from Asia (mostly Japan and Korea) because they did not yet have any in-house capacity to build them. That has changed - as Ford can now build or buy superior hybrid battery packs and motors locally, for half the cost, and using readily available materials and resources. Some of the local suppliers for batteries and such are indeed Asian-owned, but the point is the manufacturing operation is local, because that is the affordable method.

     

    Anyway it is unlikely that China will be exporting cars or automotive Lithium battery packs to the US, and any raw lithium will have to be competitive in terms of price on the materials markets. Even though China has the currency reserves to dump such commodities, components, and materials on the market at below cost, that sort of thing just won't be tolerated these days.

     

    There is no doubt that the China automotive industry will become a major, even dominating player in producing electric vehicles and hybrids, using Japanese, Korean, and US technologies, stolen and replicated if necessary. But these would be strictly for the Asian markets, and potentially other markets where they can cheaply ship them.
    23 Feb 2013, 06:58 AM Reply Like
  • CEDUP
    , contributor
    Comments (232) | Send Message
     
    It is very easy to just say no, to anything automotive from China, just make up arbitrary rules like other countries do to keep out imports. Japan did it to us for Decades, now Korea does, f China, simple. When Wal Marters wake up and stop buying Chinese crap, China may wake up, China may have all our money, only because we keep buying there junk. Stop buying it, and china will notice. Germany restricts lots of the garbage from China, they are smarter than everyone!
    23 Feb 2013, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • Tdot
    , contributor
    Comments (4989) | Send Message
     
    No, it is not. If you want to start a trade war with China, you will lose, and they will still own you, because they already do own a large percentage of the US debt.

     

    How long will it be before they decide to call in all that debt, and "foreclose" on it, taking all the US gold reserves in the NY Reserve and Fort Knox, and then the entire Pacific seaboard from Mexico to Canada, east to the foothills of the Rocky Mountains, and also Alaska with all its precious resources including the huge coal, gas, and oil reserves (think they care in the least bit about cute polar bear cubs and endangered bald eagles?); or else the US just prints several trillion dollars to pay off China and we end up with 100% inflation rate for the next 30 years?

     

    Yeah ... great plan. Get China angry with the US.

     

    Ironically, the Native American Indian tribes decended from the same folk as the Chinese / Mongolians, having crossed the Straits to Alaska many thousands of years ago. Maybe those that remain would find sympathy and favor with their new ancestral overlords, in the establishment of a new puppet government in what constitutes the new US territory from the Great Plains to the east. Maybe they will recover all their ancestral lands, taken by the Palefaces over the last few hundred years. And guess who the Chinese will have sharecrop-farming the fields of Kansas, Nebraska, and Iowa, with cheap forced Anglo-white labor to produce essential food crops, to be shipped back to "the home land" back in Old China?

     

    Yeaaaah, that'll be greeeeeat.
    26 Feb 2013, 08:54 AM Reply Like
  • CEDUP
    , contributor
    Comments (232) | Send Message
     
    Just say NO! The only reason china has any say is because the dumb U.S. is so poorly run by morons and criminals, that have let china get influences. Poor management like in any company, leads to defeat. And letting China keep dumping their junk here is just poor managment. If china couldn't sell their crap here, they would feel the pinch. Buy quality, and the world is a better place. The high costs of low prices.
    1 Mar 2013, 05:27 AM Reply Like
  • Tdot
    , contributor
    Comments (4989) | Send Message
     
    The reason China has any say, is because they have most of the US treasury bonds and currency and debt.

     

    Didn't major in international relations did you? Business and trading and all that? And law.
    1 Mar 2013, 10:38 AM Reply Like
  • Sam Liu
    , contributor
    Comments (3864) | Send Message
     
    "The only reason china has any say is because the dumb U.S. is so poorly run by morons and criminals"

     

    And who elected in those morons and criminals?
    1 Mar 2013, 10:56 AM Reply Like
  • CEDUP
    , contributor
    Comments (232) | Send Message
     
    VW/Audi/Porsche have been producing and perfecting smaller engines with tubos for years, when the U.S. wakes up and realizes ya don't need V8 waste, we may become as smart as Germany. They have tiny diesels, that put out lots of power. Multi turbos etc. GM and Ford still are scrap metal mfgs, not inovation or cars. TOYota has become GM, more junk than even GM managed to make!
    23 Feb 2013, 12:05 PM Reply Like
  • Tdot
    , contributor
    Comments (4989) | Send Message
     
    European manufacturers have become good at making diesels, because diesels and the fuel are heavily subsidized by the governments. They would be good at steam turbines and electric motors, if that is what the governments and taxpayers had paid them to build.

     

    Folks that dare to drive gasoline powered cars are considered punks and lowlifes, in Fortress Europe.
    1 Mar 2013, 01:21 PM Reply Like
  • CEDUP
    , contributor
    Comments (232) | Send Message
     
    The GERMANS invented it and perfected it, it's simple. The world runs on diesel, the U.S.A. is so out of touch and backwards, we are third world. GM is doomed, they still make scrap metal, even after being handed Billion$. and the U.S. gov't lost a fortune due to the horrible stock price of loser GM, GM will be BK soon. It's all scrap metal.
    2 Mar 2013, 08:21 AM Reply Like
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