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Number crunchers at Germany's finance ministry put into figures why the country opposes a...

Number crunchers at Germany's finance ministry put into figures why the country opposes a eurobond: the first year would reportedly cost €2.5B ($3.6B) in extra interest and the second year twice that; by the tenth year the expense would soar to €20-25B.
Comments (49)
  • superpatrol
    , contributor
    Comments (616) | Send Message
     
    20-25B EUR is nothing. every year california subsidizes the rest of the USA to the tune of $70B. That is, every year tax money from California to the feds is $70B more than government expenditures of any form (social security, Fed agencies, military) received. If Californians actually knew this, they'd strongly consider seceding from the rest of this ungrateful @#$%-hole of a country.
    Germany has twice the population of CA, yet is whining over a relatively small amount compared to what CA does for the #@it states of america.
    21 Aug 2011, 06:46 AM Reply Like
  • wyostocks
    , contributor
    Comments (8869) | Send Message
     
    The best thing California could do for America is to leave the country.
    21 Aug 2011, 08:34 AM Reply Like
  • lowemoran
    , contributor
    Comments (130) | Send Message
     
    California leave the country please.....

     

    I pray to God so he can protect the USA from Omama and California.
    21 Aug 2011, 09:32 AM Reply Like
  • Spin
    , contributor
    Comments (244) | Send Message
     
    Californians keep electing people who vote for bigger government and "take-care-of-me" programs, so the problem starts locally at the ballot box.
    21 Aug 2011, 01:11 PM Reply Like
  • metalpipe
    , contributor
    Comments (437) | Send Message
     
    I suggest you find another country you like better. California is a hugely productive state. It is no wonder they pay a very high percentage of taxes. Are you a confederate/survivalis... bug? Relax man. Life is too short.
    21 Aug 2011, 01:26 PM Reply Like
  • superpatrol
    , contributor
    Comments (616) | Send Message
     
    that would be like saying the best thing Germany could do for the eurozone is to leave the eurozone. The euro zone would collapse, as the rest of the US would collapse if CA left.
    21 Aug 2011, 01:44 PM Reply Like
  • superpatrol
    , contributor
    Comments (616) | Send Message
     
    "omama", hahahahaha that is so funny and yet so true. Every point is made more refined and more logically unassailable when you replace the 'b' in Obama, with an 'm'!
    You could only improve your posts more by including something marginally racist relating to the middle name Hussein!
    21 Aug 2011, 01:50 PM Reply Like
  • superpatrol
    , contributor
    Comments (616) | Send Message
     
    a classic example of someone who is ungrateful.
    21 Aug 2011, 07:28 PM Reply Like
  • Amateur__investor
    , contributor
    Comments (764) | Send Message
     
    Must be religious right fanatic. Can't spell either. Thus A MORON
    22 Aug 2011, 01:15 AM Reply Like
  • Spin
    , contributor
    Comments (244) | Send Message
     
    Your comment failed to examine the amount of monies Californians received from federal spending. And, to be fair to other States, the people from Minnesota have a bigger right to complain than their west coast brethren. (According to calculations by The Economist, between 1990 and 2009 Minnesota paid 199% to California's 18% federal taxes minus spending as a % of 2009 GDP.)
    22 Aug 2011, 02:11 PM Reply Like
  • superpatrol
    , contributor
    Comments (616) | Send Message
     
    The data on which my comment is based includes the money received from federal spending. My data is here:
    www.taxfoundation.org/...

     

    As you can see, for every $1 CA sends in taxes, it receives less than 80c in government expenditures

     

    I agree, other states have more to complain about, especially New Jersey and Connecticut. But by actual $ amount, California dwarfs all other states the amount which it subsidizes the rest of the union.

     

    I would like to see the Economist article to which you refer. Thanks!
    22 Aug 2011, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • superpatrol
    , contributor
    Comments (616) | Send Message
     
    Just face it wyostocks. You and all your tea party fanatics are all bluster. When it comes to hard data, you'll notice that tea party states like Kentucky, Alaska, Alabama are among the biggest leech states in the union.

     

    www.taxfoundation.org/...
    22 Aug 2011, 03:23 PM Reply Like
  • superpatrol
    , contributor
    Comments (616) | Send Message
     
    Note that I ignore states like Virginia and Maryland and New Mexico, for which the money is received as payment for services rendered. i.e., public employees, military.
    22 Aug 2011, 03:25 PM Reply Like
  • superpatrol
    , contributor
    Comments (616) | Send Message
     
    spin, I've now seen the economist article. I agree now that other states have more to complain about, although the sum of $300B+ over 20 years, is not to be ignored. Tea partiers complain about the tax and spend liberal states, yet these are the states that are taxed, while it is the profligate fester-hole states like Alaska, Arizona, and Kentucky that build mega-highways in some sub-urban wasteland.
    22 Aug 2011, 03:39 PM Reply Like
  • Lakeaffect
    , contributor
    Comments (1153) | Send Message
     
    If Californians would get off their butts and help the rest of the country vote out those in Congress who like to spend everyone else's money (and then some), then we could all put a stop to this madness in Washington.

     

    As it stands now, liberal California leads the way in teaching the rest of us the art of wealth transfer.
    21 Aug 2011, 08:39 AM Reply Like
  • metalpipe
    , contributor
    Comments (437) | Send Message
     
    As opposed to... say, the corporate farmers holding our country hostage; demanding huge subsidies? We are all to blame.
    21 Aug 2011, 01:29 PM Reply Like
  • Moon Kil Woong
    , contributor
    Comments (11520) | Send Message
     
    Good point! Ethanol subsidies are one of the worst programs recently not only costing Americans billions in cost but also adding massive inflation to our food prices.
    21 Aug 2011, 05:35 PM Reply Like
  • haiguike
    , contributor
    Comments (937) | Send Message
     
    It seemed like a great idea to the politicians at the time when food and gas prices were so cheap. It guaranteed votes from the corn producing states and made the farm and corn lobbies happy.

     

    The problem with these government subsidies is that they're really easy to implement and expand upon, but when times get tough and you have to take it back, it becomes nearly impossible without a crisis.
    21 Aug 2011, 05:41 PM Reply Like
  • superpatrol
    , contributor
    Comments (616) | Send Message
     
    agreed
    21 Aug 2011, 07:25 PM Reply Like
  • Moon Kil Woong
    , contributor
    Comments (11520) | Send Message
     
    Also bad is the fact China uses Methanol which is used in Indy 500 racecars which is lower cost than gas, requires no subsidy, and gives cars better gas mileage not worse like ethanol. We be really really stupid on this ethanol thing. Who would have thought China's free market system would beat the US which is trying to run a managed energy economy. That is back assed and stupid in 100 different ways.
    22 Aug 2011, 06:29 AM Reply Like
  • Johnathan Fraser
    , contributor
    Comments (211) | Send Message
     
    But we tryin to be green Mr. Woong. Money ain't everything. There's people and nature and butterflies too!
    22 Aug 2011, 06:31 AM Reply Like
  • osolemio
    , contributor
    Comments (56) | Send Message
     
    Saving 25B per year and causing a market crash costing at least 3 Trillions (1 T= 1,000B) in the last 3 weeks.
    Great savings...
    Never try to understand the minds of number-crunching government bureaucrats!
    Germany, it's time to understand that "with power comes responsibility". Where would your export markets be if the whole world is crashing around you?
    21 Aug 2011, 09:52 AM Reply Like
  • untrusting investor
    , contributor
    Comments (9973) | Send Message
     
    Just curious as to why private investors and alleged free marketers always think that governemnts should be "hands off and let the free markets work" when they are making truckloads of money (already courtesy of previous massive government and taxpayer bailouts and freebies) , yet as soon as trouble occurs again then governements and worldwide taxpayers should jump to the rescue and make sure those same private investors and free-marketers should yet again be bailed out by governement and taxpayers once more.

     

    It might just make more sense if you suggested that those free marketers and private investors who just lost the almost $3 trillion should help themselves for a change and come up with the $25 billion annually to support markets instead of expecting German or other world taxpayers to bail them out yet again. Surely a mere $25 billion annually is a pittance to the trillions in cash now on the balance sheets of major corporations worldwide, courtesy of us taxpayers and central banks worldwide.

     

    Nothing preventing big private investors from coming up with hundreds of billions to take on European debts, except pure greed of course. Since big corporations worldwide made the vast majority of profits from trillions in taxpayer, central bank, and government support and stimulus over the last 2 years, maybe it's time to ask those profitable corporations to give some back this time and provide the support instead of governments and taxpayers worldwide.

     

    Just a contrarian thought.

     

    On another vein, millions of value investors worldwide are loving this market meltdown and hoping for even more to come. Those positioned properly are waiting for great value entry points over the coming months. The trillions of dollars sitting in cash on the sidelines is ready to enter the markets when really cheap equity prices are finally reached, whatever one believes that to be.
    22 Aug 2011, 03:29 AM Reply Like
  • User 353732
    , contributor
    Comments (4993) | Send Message
     
    That is precisely the point of the Eurobonds: to transfer billions from the still competitive and productive Germans and other northern Europeans to the pathologically uncompetitive and parasitic polities and economies of the Euro-Periphery.

     

    Eurobonds simply carry the whole morally and intellectually bankrupt European Project to its final criminal conclusion.
    21 Aug 2011, 10:59 AM Reply Like
  • spald_fr
    , contributor
    Comments (2802) | Send Message
     
    Any chance Germany relaunches the Deutsche Mark after you process plays out? Or before the end?
    21 Aug 2011, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • Doc 224899
    , contributor
    Comments (932) | Send Message
     
    If Germany wanted to pull out of the EU and dump the Euro, they could share the most respected currency in the world with Switzerland, that being the Swiss Franc. It would work for Switzerland because the franc would be stablized with little expense to the Swiss government, and allowed to grow into a regional reserve currency in response to regional international demand, and it would allow Germany to disown its dysfunctional neighbors who have become too expensive to stay in business with.
    21 Aug 2011, 12:05 PM Reply Like
  • ricksteph
    , contributor
    Comments (515) | Send Message
     
    Isn't annual German GDP well in excess of 2 Trillion Euros? If indeed the issue could be resolved for such a tiny fraction of that amount, if would be a bargain.
    21 Aug 2011, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • Lakeaffect
    , contributor
    Comments (1153) | Send Message
     
    How about maybe they just have a problem with someone taking their hard earned money and handing it over to some irresponsible profligates who have no intention of reforming?

     

    We need an Angela Merkel here in America.
    21 Aug 2011, 11:58 AM Reply Like
  • superpatrol
    , contributor
    Comments (616) | Send Message
     
    We need Angela Merkel here in California, so we won't get our hard earned dollars taken by fester holes like Alabama, Wyoming, Arkansas, and Alaska, which take far more from the Feds than they pay in taxes. Alas, the idiots in Alabama, Alaska, and the rest have no intention of reforming.
    21 Aug 2011, 01:55 PM Reply Like
  • einzling44
    , contributor
    Comments (530) | Send Message
     
    Be careful what you wish for, pal.
    22 Aug 2011, 07:51 AM Reply Like
  • Johnathan Fraser
    , contributor
    Comments (211) | Send Message
     
    cuz you might just get it all?
    22 Aug 2011, 07:52 AM Reply Like
  • Lakeaffect
    , contributor
    Comments (1153) | Send Message
     
    Don't misinterpret my comments, Super, I am with you on this. The Feds are re-distributionist, the worst of the profiligate spenders. States should not be subsidizing one another, not here nor in Europe.

     

    My position is that if Californians don't like transferring their hard earned wealth and earnings to others, then they need to start raising hell about it and do something besides sitting on the sofa whining.

     

    With regard to ethanol subsidies, how many of you who oppose them have contacted your Congress people about getting rid of them? They're not mind readers, you know.

     

    If you're not communicating with your Representatives and Senators, then they have every right to assume you are one of those who are more interested in whats going on with Kiki and American Idol and Dancing with the Stars.
    22 Aug 2011, 09:23 AM Reply Like
  • rsusich
    , contributor
    Comments (9) | Send Message
     
    Integrating 17 Countries into a single currency, dismissing the language differences, social differences, life styles, was bound to fail. Germany cannot support Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain, by buying their bonds having interest rates, that cannot be repaid.
    21 Aug 2011, 02:11 PM Reply Like
  • 1GREENGIANT
    , contributor
    Comments (5) | Send Message
     
    If Germany leaves the Euro, because higher costs of borrowing,the Deuche mark will soar like the Swiss Franc currency, thus putting greater pressure on a export driven economy, they have to make up their minds, Nobody can win them all.
    21 Aug 2011, 03:27 PM Reply Like
  • Moon Kil Woong
    , contributor
    Comments (11520) | Send Message
     
    It's a lot like dominoes, after PIIGS France will keel over and then it's Germany. Then what do they do? I hope it isn't the usual economic downturn replay of European history which descends into regional wars or World Wars.
    21 Aug 2011, 05:37 PM Reply Like
  • Johnathan Fraser
    , contributor
    Comments (211) | Send Message
     
    Mmm....PIIGS, dominoes... I smell pepperoni pizza. What say'st you. Sir Wong?
    22 Aug 2011, 07:54 AM Reply Like
  • dividend_growth
    , contributor
    Comments (2897) | Send Message
     
    If Euro zone disintegrates in a disorderly fashion, Germany would not lose a few billion, but a few trillion.

     

    What we are seeing here is nothing but the European version of brinkmanship. Germany is using its strong position to push for maximum advantage.
    21 Aug 2011, 06:47 PM Reply Like
  • Johnathan Fraser
    , contributor
    Comments (211) | Send Message
     
    Germany losing a few trillion. Then, why would brinkmanship apply here.
    22 Aug 2011, 07:15 AM Reply Like
  • Johnathan Fraser
    , contributor
    Comments (211) | Send Message
     
    So let me get this straight

     

    A.) Germans don't want to subsidize partying done by the Greeks and the French (or pay for the borrowing cost of social security for their neighbors)

     

    and

     

    B.) It's helluva expensive figure.
    22 Aug 2011, 05:59 AM Reply Like
  • paulvard
    , contributor
    Comments (124) | Send Message
     
    Couldn't a Eurobond be formed withing which the interest expenditures by each European member countries pay interest according to its economic metrics. Say Germany because of its economic strength will pay less interest while Greece pay the most.
    22 Aug 2011, 07:12 AM Reply Like
  • Johnathan Fraser
    , contributor
    Comments (211) | Send Message
     
    Then why have a Eurobond at all. LOL. Cute answer, but very, very off.

     

    Let's just have a Euro, but ummm... based on your economic strength, the Euro exchange rate in your country will vary.
    22 Aug 2011, 07:14 AM Reply Like
  • paulvard
    , contributor
    Comments (124) | Send Message
     
    Bond in aggregate should have some discounts because the risk factor will be spread around.
    22 Aug 2011, 07:25 AM Reply Like
  • einzling44
    , contributor
    Comments (530) | Send Message
     
    In the end of the day Germany will pay because it is the right thing to do. German politicians know that exiting the euro and reinstating the Deutsche Mark will kill German exports: 1DM =2.5EUR=3USD - a death sentence for German economy...
    22 Aug 2011, 07:58 AM Reply Like
  • Johnathan Fraser
    , contributor
    Comments (211) | Send Message
     
    Right thing to do? Morally?
    22 Aug 2011, 08:04 AM Reply Like
  • paulvard
    , contributor
    Comments (124) | Send Message
     
    How much money does Germany saves on their export because of the Euro?
    22 Aug 2011, 10:54 AM Reply Like
  • einzling44
    , contributor
    Comments (530) | Send Message
     
    Not morally, economically: Look at the Swissie - it has been going up until today the SNB pegged it to the Euro. If Germany had their Deutsche Mark it would be 3 USD and no currency could serve as a peg. So Germany made a hell of a bargain with the Euro.
    6 Sep 2011, 01:43 PM Reply Like
  • 1GREENGIANT
    , contributor
    Comments (5) | Send Message
     
    If Germany leaves the Euro, because higher costs of borrowing,the Deutche mark will soar like the Swiss Franc currency, thus putting greater pressure on a export driven economy, they have to make up their minds, Nobody can win them all.The world is waiting
    22 Aug 2011, 02:27 PM Reply Like
  • osolemio
    , contributor
    Comments (56) | Send Message
     
    The recent action of the Swiss National Bank (SNB) on Sep 6 to put a floor against the rising Swiss Franc at 1.20 per Euro shows what could happen if the Deutsche Mark would be re-introduced. The resulting meteoric rise of the new DM would kill German exports and crash the German economy, pulling down Europe and the world with it.
    Shades of 1933... Who would rise to power in Berlin then?
    Nobody likes to subsidize irresponsible spenders, but let us hope that Germans would understand that the price of a bailout would be less than the price of inaction!
    7 Sep 2011, 08:49 AM Reply Like
  • einzling44
    , contributor
    Comments (530) | Send Message
     
    You are not allowed to be a politician in Europe unless your IQ is below70. In the US every now and then some smart guy cheats on that (Clinton comes to mind).
    21 Sep 2011, 07:52 PM Reply Like
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