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More on the Q1 GDP (first estimate) miss: Government spending slowdown continues, with real...

More on the Q1 GDP (first estimate) miss: Government spending slowdown continues, with real federal government spending off 8.4% vs. 14.8% in Q4; defense spending off 11.5% vs. 22.1%. Real PCE +3.2%. Nonresidential fixed investment +2.1%. Real exports +2.9%, Real imports +5.4%. Real final sales +1.5% vs. 1.9% in Q4. Inventories added 103 bps to GDP in Q1 after subtracting 152 bps in Q4. SPY -0.3% premarket. The long bond pops half of a point. TLT +0.8% premarket. (full report)
Comments (68)
  • bbro
    , contributor
    Comments (9156) | Send Message
     
    The leading indicators hidden in the GDP figures indicate no recession...
    26 Apr 2013, 08:48 AM Reply Like
  • bbro
    , contributor
    Comments (9156) | Send Message
     
    Nominal GDP minus Government up 4.47% y-o-y
    26 Apr 2013, 09:15 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    This is super bearish. We need austerity and cut Govt spending so that we can have a real recession, not an imaginary one.

     

    On a more serious note, 1.1% inflation in Q1 is a sign of trouble ahead unless the Fed increases the size of QE. Real deflationary pressures out there.
    26 Apr 2013, 09:24 AM Reply Like
  • mickmars
    , contributor
    Comments (1323) | Send Message
     
    Why is there no talk of a Federal infrastructure stimulus? Think that's some additional government spending that everyone can agree on.

     

    Instead, we'll get more QE to buy treasury bonds to finance tax loopholes for elite and handouts for the bottom.
    26 Apr 2013, 10:07 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    We do not want socialist spending on infrastructure. We want austerity.
    26 Apr 2013, 11:59 AM Reply Like
  • David Urban
    , contributor
    Comments (1036) | Send Message
     
    The last time we did an infrastructure stimulus bill it was wasted on things like an Alaskan airport nobody uses.

     

    http://bit.ly/17mOfGC

     

    It was a money grab for political donors and did little to fix our infrastructure problems.
    26 Apr 2013, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Exactly. We shouldn't spend any money on infrastructure. We need real recessions. We will show the consumers that however much they buy, by cutting Govt spending we will for sure get a recession. It's war, guys!
    26 Apr 2013, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • fishfryer
    , contributor
    Comments (2266) | Send Message
     
    Macro, I agree with everything you wrote on this thread!!!!

     

    Let's just never talk about gold with each other again.
    26 Apr 2013, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • dccockrell
    , contributor
    Comment (1) | Send Message
     
    You can't tax and spend the country to prosperity!
    26 Apr 2013, 03:05 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Why, FF? I love to talk gold with long term gold believers.
    26 Apr 2013, 04:46 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    I agree dccockrell. Just look at what USA has done since the 50s. Horrible, horrible I tell you!
    26 Apr 2013, 04:46 PM Reply Like
  • Zheeeem
    , contributor
    Comments (230) | Send Message
     
    The only true path to prosperity is the mindless repetition of soundbites from CNBC talk show hosts.
    27 Apr 2013, 03:47 AM Reply Like
  • fishfryer
    , contributor
    Comments (2266) | Send Message
     
    Let's talk government spending and austerity.

     

    What happens at the next election if there is austerity?

     

    How long do you expect this recession you mentioned after austerity to last?

     

    How deep do you expect this recession to be in terms of GDP?

     

    And no, we can't talk about gold.... yet.
    28 Apr 2013, 08:28 PM Reply Like
  • fishfryer
    , contributor
    Comments (2266) | Send Message
     
    Ok let's talk gold. What happens if we stop printing? Explain to me the depth and length of the recession. Explain to me what sort of political changes will happen.
    28 Apr 2013, 08:29 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    FF, I don't believe I have all the answers, but I do believe that if Britain can do it so can we. With adequate austerity it should be possible to crush the US economy.
    28 Apr 2013, 08:33 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    FF, as for gold, just wait for Paulson to dump. When he does there will be yet another nice crash.
    28 Apr 2013, 08:34 PM Reply Like
  • fishfryer
    , contributor
    Comments (2266) | Send Message
     
    Paulson won't dump, he was 4 or 5 years early to cash in on the sub prime collapse, he will wait this one out. Besides, GLD isn't real gold, they don't move any physical metal ever, it's is all slight of hand. The paper gold market is 100x bigger than physical.

     

    Britain spends a little more than half of what we do for defense on a GDP basis, this is only one example of our structural economic differences. But the big difference is that the sterling is a very minor reserve currency, they have already fallen. If our dollar loses strength in its reserve capacity, it is all over with respect to import costs.

     

    Macro, I agree with the need for austerity, but I know that austerity will bring $3000 gold. Here is how, answer these questions, and after one or two rounds, you will see how and why gold will rise.

     

    Back to austerity, will this slow GDP, will this lower tax revenues, will this increase unemployment in the short term? Will austerity affect the military budget?
    29 Apr 2013, 01:38 AM Reply Like
  • mrdirt
    , contributor
    Comments (380) | Send Message
     
    The GDP showed contributions to growth from all areas of the economy, with the exception of government, trade and investment by businesses in offices and other commercial buildings.

     

    Consumer spending, which accounts for more than two-thirds of U.S. economic activity, increased at 3.2 percent pace - the fastest since the fourth quarter of 2010. It grew at a 1.8 percent rate in the fourth quarter of last year.

     

    However, households cut back on saving to fund their purchases after incomes dropped at a 5.3 percent rate in the first quarter - a bad sign for future spending growth. The drop in income was the largest since the third quarter of 2009.

     

    The saving rate - the percentage of disposable income households are socking away - fell to 2.6 percent, the lowest since the fourth quarter of 2007, from 4.7 percent in the fourth quarter of 2012.

     

    Much of the gains in first-quarter spending came from automobile purchases and outlays for utilities, which were boosted by unusually cold temperatures. Consumers managed to step up their spending despite the return of a 2 percent payroll tax and higher gasoline prices.
    http://bit.ly/Zpb5LX
    26 Apr 2013, 09:26 AM Reply Like
  • The Last Boomer
    , contributor
    Comments (873) | Send Message
     
    Consumers better shape up, go out, and spend money they don't have. I guess this is the true and tried recipe for economic prosperity.
    26 Apr 2013, 09:32 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Can we do something about this irresponsible behavior from consumers? Can us conservatives pass a law banning consumer spending?
    26 Apr 2013, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • The EconomicJoker
    , contributor
    Comments (961) | Send Message
     
    What green shoots!? This is all a bunch of crap. Bye bye economy.
    26 Apr 2013, 09:35 AM Reply Like
  • Matthew Davis
    , contributor
    Comments (3569) | Send Message
     
    Lol, and those voted for this administration expected the hope and change would turn into a miracle?
    26 Apr 2013, 09:41 AM Reply Like
  • mickmars
    , contributor
    Comments (1323) | Send Message
     
    If only we had McCain or Romney, we'd have had 2.55% GDP growth instead of 2.5%.

     

    War with Iran and Syria would have been entertaining to watch on TV though.
    26 Apr 2013, 10:04 AM Reply Like
  • yv204
    , contributor
    Comments (158) | Send Message
     
    This was not a bad report -- the unexpected part was the resilience of the consumer sector, a positive. Please, all of you bears, go and sell, so that I could pick up a few excellent stocks at throwaway prices.
    26 Apr 2013, 09:52 AM Reply Like
  • Cliff Hilton
    , contributor
    Comments (1278) | Send Message
     
    Any of you guys run a business in the service industry?

     

    I do and lower prices are good for myself and the customers I serve. If the data is correct (ha), then we could be in for better pricing.

     

    More Americans are out of debt over the last few years (25.3%). Try getting out of debt and grow the economy. If you're an investor (me too), expect less returns on those investments. Or, trying starting a business. Don't be scared, try it, we're Americans for Pete's sake.
    26 Apr 2013, 10:24 AM Reply Like
  • june1234
    , contributor
    Comments (2331) | Send Message
     
    Bad news is good news That GDP miss news lasted a whole 20 minutes.
    26 Apr 2013, 10:34 AM Reply Like
  • jhooper
    , contributor
    Comments (5197) | Send Message
     
    Don't forget. Changes are coming for how GDP is calculated.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    26 Apr 2013, 12:36 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Great link Hoops! We are now including R&D and creative spend in GDP? What has the world come to in a knowledge economy? We should only include manufacturing in the GDP and be done with it. OK, we should include oil production too as we all know that Texas is great. However, this attempt to include R&D and creative spend in GDP is clearly a sneaky way to make California look better than Texas and we can't have that.

     

    Knowledge economy my rear end!
    26 Apr 2013, 12:50 PM Reply Like
  • jhooper
    , contributor
    Comments (5197) | Send Message
     
    Or better yet, we can not talk about the changes that occur, and just assume it is an apples to apples comparison, and say, "see GDP went up, so it looks like socialism is finally going to work". After all, the only way to make the populace think tyranny is better for them is to adjust the measurements to create that outcome.

     

    If your interested in which states see AGI migration, you can see that here.

     

    http://bit.ly/YKTfQb

     

    I can see you are still commenting and not out redistributing your income, or at least working another job instead of commenting and giving that income away. Remember, any failure to give means you don't care.
    26 Apr 2013, 01:05 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    You are really sore about the increase in consumer spending despite the tax changes, aren't you?
    26 Apr 2013, 01:07 PM Reply Like
  • jhooper
    , contributor
    Comments (5197) | Send Message
     
    I was just pointing out your lack of logic. That's typical in fraud, and fraud is typical for theft.

     

    How many people did you let starve while you made your comment about how much you care?
    26 Apr 2013, 01:10 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Tell me, when numbers are not to your liking, do you always cry fraud?
    26 Apr 2013, 01:12 PM Reply Like
  • jhooper
    , contributor
    Comments (5197) | Send Message
     
    Fraud comes about when people are trying to steal. Like when they claim a failure to give means you don't care, and then they spend all day on a comment thread bragging about how much they care and not giving. So they can use the fraud of their caring to tax away the wealth of their neighbor.
    26 Apr 2013, 01:36 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    So the GDP number is not a fraud?
    26 Apr 2013, 01:40 PM Reply Like
  • jhooper
    , contributor
    Comments (5197) | Send Message
     
    It can be.

     

    Think about it. Why do we want auditors for financial statements? We reasonably conclude that management has incentives for a conflict of interest, thus we worry they will bias the numbers.

     

    If you advocate for a political philosophy that says people in gov can produce better results by having control over your life, then they design a measurement tool to see how they are doing, what chance do you think is there that these guys are going to design a tool that will allow them the flexibility to say, "see its working, I am doing better than you could if I didn't have control over you. So don't pay attention to your real circumstances, or that my circumstances are getting much better than yours, just look at the measurement tool I have provided and ignore everything else."

     

    Their natural tendency is going to be to design measurement tools that can always be contrived to show what a success they are, so they can keep getting richer while everyone else gets poorer.
    26 Apr 2013, 02:02 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    So you are simply speculating that it is fraud without any factual basis?
    26 Apr 2013, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • jhooper
    , contributor
    Comments (5197) | Send Message
     
    Well they said themselves they designed it to show how successful they were. The only way to prove it would be to go back in time and rerun without their control. Since that can never happen, all we can do is use reason to determine if they are really alltruistic beings with no concern for their well being and only concerned with others well being and have the knowledge to act in other's well being without any incentives whatsoever to do so.

     

    http://1.usa.gov/Y9Sd50

     

    What's more interesting is your distrust of people acting in voluntary cooperation without the ability to control one another which provides some incentive to be as honest as they know how to be regarding what they understand the facts to be, and your complete trust of people with every incentive to lie, make mistakes, and lie about making mistakes.

     

    I am ready to conclude based on reason that completely relying on their numbers when they have so many conflicts of interests is something only a sucker would do.
    26 Apr 2013, 02:20 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    I only trust shadow stats as that is completely unbiased with no incentive whatsoever to be alarmist and sell subscriptions. Govt economists who do no selling? I do not trust them at all.
    26 Apr 2013, 04:48 PM Reply Like
  • jhooper
    , contributor
    Comments (5197) | Send Message
     
    They are selling why they should have control and income paid by the populace. Sounds like you are part of the scam or a sucker.
    26 Apr 2013, 05:18 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    I agree Hoops, if the Govt economist showed a shrinking GDP like they did in the recession, they would all be out of control and without jobs. History shows that. Hence they must lie. On the other hand, if shadow stats didn't spread alarmist views subscriptions wouldn't have dropped at all. That's why I trust shadow stats who is selling nothing at all.

     

    Say, do you just make it up as you go along or do you actually first read what you are writing?
    26 Apr 2013, 07:27 PM Reply Like
  • jhooper
    , contributor
    Comments (5197) | Send Message
     
    "economist showed a shrinking GDP like they did in the recession, they would all be out of control and without jobs."

     

    If there was really a measurement of the economy performed by gov, that measurement would have all the gov moochers out of their jobs a long time ago. Instead they've been able to steal fortune upon fortune doing nothing but wasting people's time with things that could be done far better and far cheaper without having to use guns to stay in power.

     

    Shadowstats doesn't put people in jail or shoot them for not using their products. Gov imprisons and kills people when they try to stop using their products. Stop paying your income taxes and see what happens to you. Which is ironic, because you supposed "enlightened" ones monopolized the money medium for a monetary system where income taxes don't fund the gov, yet you run around like chickens with your feathers on fire crying about the lack of expropriation taxes not funding the gov.

     

    So, I guess the only question for you is, have you ever thought logically about your comments, or are you just parroting the talking points from MSNBC or maybe the BEA?
    26 Apr 2013, 07:50 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Hoops, Do you think the Govt will jail/shoot you if you stop living in the USA, give up the passport, and stop paying income taxes?
    26 Apr 2013, 07:56 PM Reply Like
  • jhooper
    , contributor
    Comments (5197) | Send Message
     
    Lyman J Gage promised that the creation of the Fed Res would end bubbles. He and LM Shaw went on to attempt to use the US Treas mimic a Fed Res. What followed was the Panic of 1907. It is also interesting to note the Fed has never predicted a recession, yet they have happened anyway.

     

    Since MI represents the self proclaimed intellectual elite. I will let MI tell everyone who Gage and Shaw were. We await the Google results.

     

    For decades the Coercives have always complained what an unjust and unfair place the US is, yet they never left to go to their dream socieities of Cuba and N Korea.
    27 Apr 2013, 10:53 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Hoops, You deftly sidetracked my question.
    27 Apr 2013, 12:39 PM Reply Like
  • jhooper
    , contributor
    Comments (5197) | Send Message
     
    MI's comments are definitely prototypical of how people can be brought up with a frame of reference where they are able to call good evil and evil good. We all like to think that we would never fall for state propaganda, but given the right set of circumstances you can create an enduring tyranny by creating the right frame of reference. So if done right, you can get people to accept the religion of state, which is the opiate of the masses.

     

    http://bit.ly/1631Jt2
    27 Apr 2013, 02:15 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Hoops, if you feel that the USA is a totalitarian regime, I still don't understand why you simply don't turn your passport in and leave? Are you afraid that you will shot in the border?

     

    Look, the fact that you remain here and keep paying your taxes like a good boy clearly shows that you know very well that the benefits that you get from those taxes far outweigh the monetary cost.
    27 Apr 2013, 02:26 PM Reply Like
  • jhooper
    , contributor
    Comments (5197) | Send Message
     
    When a thief enters someone's home, and starts attacking the occupants, and when the occupants protest, the thief doesn't claim the moral high ground by saying, iif you don't like it you can just leave.

     

    The greatest force for theft in all of history has been gov, and the fraud for the theft has always been the public good.
    28 Apr 2013, 07:02 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Hoops, the country of USA is not your home. It's govt property. So the analogy makes no sense. If you want to intrude into Govt property like the country of the USA you have to pay taxes.
    28 Apr 2013, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • jhooper
    , contributor
    Comments (5197) | Send Message
     
    Gov and its mob of looter voters intrudes all the time. The analogy is a perfect one. Gov is just a security force created by the people. The threat of that force is that it is captured for the purposes of theft. This is exactly what has happened. You are taxed to pay for the gov to protect you from theft. You don't pay taxes for the gov to steal from you via a popular vote where 51% get to vote away the rights of the 49%.

     

    MI, if you love coercion so much, why don't you move to N Korea?
    28 Apr 2013, 03:43 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Hoops, Your ability to make up hyperbole without any backing of facts is amazing.

     

    Why would I move to N Korea when I like it here? You are the one complaining about the USA. You should move somewhere where you would be happier. You won't, of course, as you know very well that USA is the place to be.
    28 Apr 2013, 07:11 PM Reply Like
  • Interesting Times
    , contributor
    Comments (9588) | Send Message
     
    Better yet. Let's just change the way we calculate it !!! I am dead serious

     

    Since the GDP wasn't high enough they are changing the way they calculate it !! Now going to include entertainment, technology, and other numbers that are a value, not a sales number, just a value !! They are going to revise THIS QUARTER to boot..

     

    Talking about putting lipstick on a pig huh...WOW..

     

    You just can't make this stuff up !!!
    26 Apr 2013, 01:04 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Technology, entertainment etc. should never be included in the GDP. They are not sales numbers. Since when has anyone bought a movie ticket or an iPad?
    26 Apr 2013, 01:07 PM Reply Like
  • Interesting Times
    , contributor
    Comments (9588) | Send Message
     
    MI

     

    If the technology is sold as a product then yes. But to put an arbitrary value on entertainment and R&D is ludicrous, almost illegal. Oh, it can't be illegal our Govt will be doing it..

     

    You have posted in the past you hate tax loopholes yet you like this fraudulent numbers game? At least Accountants learn the law and use it ! This move is just a CRUDE joke.

     

    Put whatever spin you like on it !!
    26 Apr 2013, 01:34 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Did you actually read how the calculation methodology is changing? It is nothing but arbitrary.
    26 Apr 2013, 01:35 PM Reply Like
  • Interesting Times
    , contributor
    Comments (9588) | Send Message
     
    For people who really want to see how it will be calculated just take a look at this !!

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    26 Apr 2013, 02:41 PM Reply Like
  • mweaver
    , contributor
    Comments (201) | Send Message
     
    mostly inventory rebuilding
    final sales up 1.5 percent
    2 percent gdp for the next
    few qtrs
    27 Apr 2013, 06:57 AM Reply Like
  • Teutonic Knight
    , contributor
    Comments (1988) | Send Message
     
    Welcome, welcome to the Obama economy!

     

    Cheers!
    27 Apr 2013, 09:59 AM Reply Like
  • projomni
    , contributor
    Comments (34) | Send Message
     
    Mostly on growth in consumer spending... is it a good time to buy Target and Walmart? http://bit.ly/14ttR8H
    27 Apr 2013, 03:00 PM Reply Like
  • HPBunker
    , contributor
    Comments (219) | Send Message
     
    No, because internet retail will kill Target and Walmart. In a few years, they will sell nothing but low margin groceries and cheapo clothing. I can't remember the last time I bought a CD, video game, toy, or any item of electronics at a brick and mortar store. Their prices and selection simply are not competitive with online options.
    27 Apr 2013, 03:07 PM Reply Like
  • chopchop0
    , contributor
    Comments (2994) | Send Message
     
    Patently false. Wal-Mart and Amazon match each other a lot. From a pure pricing standpoint, one study showed that Wal-Mart was able to extract better pricing power from its suppliers than Amazon.

     

    The retail that will get shafted is the retail that's been getting shafted so far.
    28 Apr 2013, 02:02 AM Reply Like
  • HPBunker
    , contributor
    Comments (219) | Send Message
     
    @MacroInvestor: I've noticed that when I consciously disregard the sarcasm in your comments, I agree with nearly all your policy prescriptions. Are you a secret conservative?
    27 Apr 2013, 03:11 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    I am a far left libertarian. I believe in a very strong social policy that tries to help those that are not very fortunate. I also believe in absolutely no govt control on social issues that do not impact a third party, like gay marriage or abortion.

     

    I used to be make serious comments reflecting my socio-political views, but one can only take so much horse excrement that the right wing espouses, like causing immense suffering to the poor and the middle class is the only way for America to be prosperous.

     

    That is simply not true.
    27 Apr 2013, 03:16 PM Reply Like
  • chopchop0
    , contributor
    Comments (2994) | Send Message
     
    Libertarians don't believe in using government tyranny to equalize outcomes, only opportunities
    28 Apr 2013, 02:04 AM Reply Like
  • jhooper
    , contributor
    Comments (5197) | Send Message
     
    Notice how people like mi won't use their own resources to practice what they preach. They are perfectly comfortable to let people suffer so they can keep theirs.
    28 Apr 2013, 07:06 AM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Is that why the conservatives are so keen to cut programs for kids like Head Start?
    28 Apr 2013, 12:27 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Hoops, I didn't know that the taxes I pay are not my own resources. Learn something every day.

     

    Anyway, stop whining about taxes if you want to utilize all the resources of the USA.
    28 Apr 2013, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • jhooper
    , contributor
    Comments (5197) | Send Message
     
    So you are saying that if Head Start is cut you won't voluntarily pick up the slack? Are you saying that you would be willing to let those programs have less money because you won't voluntarily pay more? In fact that is exactly what you are doing by commenting on these threads. If you really had the self sacrifice you claimed, you would be out working another job and giving that money away. After all, based on your own logic, a failure to give means someone else is suffering. Anything you fail to give means someone else is suffering.

     

    The real question, then is why don't you practice what you preach? The answer is obvious. You don't really believe it. No one that preaches that does, because if they did, then all the suffering would be gone already because all of these claimants would be working as hard as it takes to make all the suffering go away. Just like boxer the horse. Of course you guys are more like Snowball.
    28 Apr 2013, 03:48 PM Reply Like
  • Macro Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (7051) | Send Message
     
    Of course I won't voluntarily pick up the slack. That would be rewarding bad behavior on part of those like you who don't want to pay for the social upkeep of the country. I am not in business to reward bad behavior. I would give more in campaign contribution to Dems instead so that they can come to majority and then force people like you to pay more taxes to fund the likes of Head Start.

     

    Tell me, if your teenage kid doesn't do his chores do you do it for them, or do you make them do it? When conservatives act likes selfish teenage kids it is important not to pick up the slack. Otherwise they will never learn the concept of collective responsibility.
    28 Apr 2013, 07:14 PM Reply Like
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