Frontier Airline Holdings Inc. (FRNT)
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- General Discussion on FRNT
- Airline Deregulation: Now Do It for Real [view article]
- Why Airline Mergers Don't Work [view article]
- The ATM at the Airlines [view article]
- 21 Airline Stocks to Keep You Flying High This Summer [view article]
- Customer Omega for the Airlines [view article]
- How Holdbacks Brought Down Frontier Airlines [view article]
- Wall Street Breakfast: Must-Know News [view article]
- GE Earnings: Industrial Bellwethers Are Now Getting Hit [view article]
- Under The Radar News - Monday [view article]
loading ...Recent FRNT Articles
- The ATM at the Airlines
- Airline Deregulation: Now Do It for Real
- How Holdbacks Brought Down Frontier Airlines
- Customer Omega for the Airlines
- GE Earnings: Industrial Bellwethers Are Now Getting Hit
- Wall Street Breakfast: Must-Know News
- Under The Radar News - Monday
- Why Airline Mergers Don't Work
- Frontier Airlines: There's Change in the Air
- 21 Airline Stocks to Keep You Flying High This Summer
- Full List of Articles »
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Airline Deregulation: Now Do It for Real [view article]
You really have no clue how airlines work. You perceive airlines like restaruants lots going out of business and lots of new cheap upstarts. Have you eaten out much, taste, quality, and price are not all that great. Oh, and by the way under your plan who will you get to fly your airplanes it will not be anyone with an education or a family. Here is how an airline career works. 1. Flight School 60K to 130K, 2. Working for free as an instructor 10K to 22K for 1 to 4 years. 3. Yeah, I get to fly a jet at a regional 19K year 1, Wow I finally get a pay check 40K on year 5, but now my company went out of business. Lets just start over, because thats what pilots have to do. You now have to find a new job where you lose benefits, seniority and once again start at 19K. Even if you make it to the majors after 10 years at a regional and they go out of business you will start back as a First Officer and make 19K, maybe. Thanks but no thanks many of us already see your restaruant idea being a big hit and are now working on our MBA's, maybe we wil get lucky and be your boss. I think any idiot that graduates college should be able to write, lets just hire them for 1 year out of college as interns and then fire them a year later, turn over will bring new ideas. Maybe those interns can find a job at Wally World, reading and writing skills would be a great addition for that fine American company. ReplyWhy Airline Mergers Don't Work [view article]
This is great news! ReplyThe ATM at the Airlines [view article]
sf94127, I disagree that the baggage charge is something that should be removed. There are passengers that simply don't need to check baggage. I believe it fair to disaggregate pricing and assess a fee for those that want to check their bags.I think that the idea of a fuel charge is interesting. Airlines have tried this option quite successfully. For the case of the airline, the advantage of a charge of food or baggage is that this charge could remain after fuel prices moderate.
On July 5, sf94127 wrote:
I believe consumers would understand (but not like) a surcharge for rising fuel costs. Let this cost float with the price of jet fuel at the time they make the reservation. It may be a $400 flight has a $75 fuel surcharge; so be it. Get the cost out front, transparent, and get rid of the silly nickel and dime stuff which are just surrogates for real issue of high fuel cost. Reply
The ATM at the Airlines [view article]
I believe consumers would understand (but not like) a surcharge for rising fuel costs. Let this cost float with the price of jet fuel at the time they make the reservation. It may be a $400 flight has a $75 fuel surcharge; so be it. Get the cost out front, transparent, and get rid of the silly nickel and dime stuff which are just surrogates for real issue of high fuel cost. ReplyThe ATM at the Airlines [view article]
On June 28 at 12:39 AM Stock Miser wrote:BlueDog, thats part of my point. If I go and do my research on finding an airline to get me from point A to point B, and only later discover I could have flown for less net dollars on another airline not charging such fees or charging less fees because I couldn't read the 2 point font that says I was going to be charged such a fee, I would have surely flown a different airline. . .
I already read this post when you wrote it on June 27. I don't think there's any reason to repost my reply!
Reply
The ATM at the Airlines [view article]
BlueDog, thats part of my point. If I go and do my research on finding an airline to get me from point A to point B, and only later discover I could have flown for less net dollars on another airline not charging such fees or charging less fees because I couldn't read the 2 point font that says I was going to be charged such a fee, I would have surely flown a different airline. I'm not in the business of wanting to pay more for an equal level of service I can get elsewhere.As a customer, I don't like the idea of fees attached that are not included in bold faced font on any contract I agree to sign, including one that guarantees me a spot on an airline (or compensation in case of overbooking) when I pay for a ticket. I don't like the current fuel surcharges, but I do realize that is a necessity for airline survival in these difficult times, but I wouldn't even mind paying a higher fuel surcharge because at least that isn't going to effect my ticket price when I get to the airport. As a customer, I think I should have the ability to make easy comparisons of price points between airlines. I can do that with banks, because banks are required to list all of their fees in a fee table or some other mechanism for my review, and I can do that with ATMs because laws require that if there is a fee attached to such a transaction, it must be either posted or clearly laid out in the process of my agreeing to withdraw money from somebody's ATM machine. Why can't I do that with airlines so easily? Do airlines enjoy making the process complicated for customers? If they do, surely, that will effect customer opinion of their business, and ultimately, airline passengers will likely take their hard earned dollars somewhere else where such fees are not the norm, or at the very least, are not laid out in a font size so small that it is impossible to read or decipher their amount before purchasing a ticket.
BioInvestor, I happen to disagree with your assertion that "Individual experiences while traveling are interesting, but not really useful when analyzing companies." If enough individuals complain, a company will either change it's policy to keep those customers, or will lose at least some portion of their customer base who will go elsewhere instead. In the event that they lose customers, that will invariably effect the bottom line of an airline, and if history is any guide, such effects on the bottom line are usually reflected in stock price per share over time. Very few airlines are currently operating in the black right now, and it shows from their stock prices. (I've been very tempted to buy a few airline stocks, but don't think the bleeding is done yet.) Those doing the best appear to be airlines serving international routes. British Airways, for example, continues to put forth some stellar numbers. Domestic airlines and international airlines are, I realize, completely different ballgames economically speaking, but the principles of customer service apply across the industry pretty much the same. As one wise business person I once spoke to said to me, "If you please one customer, they MIGHT tell another customer about the good experience, but if you screw up and don't make proper amends for it (and sometimes there are no proper amends) you can be sure that a thousand potential customers will hear about it, and choose to shop elsewhere accordingly."
So again, if airlines are making it very difficult for their customers to determine how much it is really going to cost them, and customers get upset, they will go elsewhere, and some airlines will suffer even more than they are now because of that, and those holding such airline company's stock will suffer with them.
That was the thesis I was trying to make with this article. Perhaps I didn't do that as effectively as I would have liked. Reply
The ATM at the Airlines [view article]
The way the airlines are going, it won't be long when then will start charging to use the bathrooms at the planes. It will probably be called "bladder relief fee" and yes, this tax won't be levied on our frequent flyer customers! ReplyThe ATM at the Airlines [view article]
BlueDog--bingo! :) ReplyThe ATM at the Airlines [view article]
Thanks Stock Miser, you made my point. Individual opinions aren't that useful, but if there's a theme shared by many people, we’re no longer talking about a single opinion.Complaining and leaving are two separate and distinct responses: businesses will listen to complaints but respond to the loss of customers. People who complain don't necessarily take their business elsewhere.
You might want to ignore that wise business person you cited, because there's no evidence that I have found to support the notion that a disappointed person will influence a thousand potential customers. Twenty people might hear a story, but certainly not everyone in that group is going to react. Reply
The ATM at the Airlines [view article]
BlueDog, thats part of my point. If I go and do my research on finding an airline to get me from point A to point B, and only later discover I could have flown for less net dollars on another airline not charging such fees or charging less fees because I couldn't read the 2 point font that says I was going to be charged such a fee, I would have surely flown a different airline. I'm not in the business of wanting to pay more for an equal level of service I can get elsewhere.As a customer, I don't like the idea of fees attached that are not included in bold faced font on any contract I agree to sign, including one that guarantees me a spot on an airline (or compensation in case of overbooking) when I pay for a ticket. I don't like the current fuel surcharges, but I do realize that is a necessity for airline survival in these difficult times, but I wouldn't even mind paying a higher fuel surcharge because at least that isn't going to effect my ticket price when I get to the airport. As a customer, I think I should have the ability to make easy comparisons of price points between airlines. I can do that with banks, because banks are required to list all of their fees in a fee table or some other mechanism for my review, and I can do that with ATMs because laws require that if there is a fee attached to such a transaction, it must be either posted or clearly laid out in the process of my agreeing to withdraw money from somebody's ATM machine. Why can't I do that with airlines so easily? Do airlines enjoy making the process complicated for customers? If they do, surely, that will effect customer opinion of their business, and ultimately, airline passengers will likely take their hard earned dollars somewhere else where such fees are not the norm, or at the very least, are not laid out in a font size so small that it is impossible to read or decipher their amount before purchasing a ticket.
BioInvestor, I happen to disagree with your assertion that "Individual experiences while traveling are interesting, but not really useful when analyzing companies." If enough individuals complain, a company will either change it's policy to keep those customers, or will lose at least some portion of their customer base who will go elsewhere instead. In the event that they lose customers, that will invariably effect the bottom line of an airline, and if history is any guide, such effects on the bottom line are usually reflected in stock price per share over time. Very few airlines are currently operating in the black right now, and it shows from their stock prices. (I've been very tempted to buy a few airline stocks, but don't think the bleeding is done yet.) Those doing the best appear to be airlines serving international routes. British Airways, for example, continues to put forth some stellar numbers. Domestic airlines and international airlines are, I realize, completely different ballgames economically speaking, but the principles of customer service apply across the industry pretty much the same. As one wise business person I once spoke to said to me, "If you please one customer, they MIGHT tell another customer about the good experience, but if you screw up and don't make proper amends for it (and sometimes there are no proper amends) you can be sure that a thousand potential customers will hear about it, and choose to shop elsewhere accordingly."
So again, if airlines are making it very difficult for their customers to determine how much it is really going to cost them, and customers get upset, they will go elsewhere, and some airlines will suffer even more than they are now because of that, and those holding such airline company's stock will suffer with them. Reply
The ATM at the Airlines [view article]
Airlines raise fees last because passengers screen for lowest fare, not for the add ons. ReplyThe ATM at the Airlines [view article]
dandbear, weclome to SeekingAlpha! Of course, I have been on many flights and never had a carry on that was deemed too heavy and had to be checked. Big deal. It makes as much sense for an airline to base its policies around me as it does around you. There is, however, a great site where people discuss, among other things, their experiences while traveling: www.flyertalk.com Individual experiences while traveling are interesting, but not really useful when analyzing companies.Having the government involved in handling fees isn't going to happen. The trend globally is to have less government involvement in the business side of running airlines. Reply
The ATM at the Airlines [view article]
Yes, airlines and ATM owners enjoy screwing their customers as a regular part of doing business! Fees -- the government should mandate that these are rolled up into the base fare. I traveled on a same day trip RT from BOS/LGA to argue a case. My attaché was deemed too heavy and had to be checked (on one of the four legs) for $50.I too think it's clear that passengers are paying for the transportation of luggage; it is an inherent component of the ticket price as you get all of me in that price. Bag -- Bags and all. Reply
The ATM at the Airlines [view article]
Stock Miser, I think you're ignoring some of the factors which govern the airline industry.I don't see the argument against fees as being valid. Airlines that impose--or that plan to impose--such a tariff have targeted the occasional, non-frequent flyer passenger. Most of that group is motivated by price. Only time will tell if such passengers rebel against the concept of paying a separate charge for baggage. In some respects, if an airline is to lose customers, the price-sensitive, infrequent flyer is probably the group that should be targeted first. Passengers with elite status within a program aren't yet affected by the baggage fees discussed by some of the legacy carriers.
The suggestion to raise fares across the board by $25 each way is something that most airlines would love to do; they can't. Even a casual observer of the industry observes that airlines are price takers. They're currently slowly raising fares, but an increase of $25 across the board just won't work: prices are highly elastic. Fees on the other hand are tried and tested: fees work for meals; fuel surcharges have been effective. AA and others will try these baggage fees; if they work, they'll stick. If they don't, they'll disappear.
I don't see that the ATM analogy bolsters your argument. The first important point is that the cost of a good isn't necessarily the determinant when it comes to price. The market determines the price. It would be frankly dumb for a bank to determine a price for the use of an ATM based on its cost of service when it can attract a higher price from the consumer. ATM fees have actually worked very well for banks. Just like the various and sundry fees attached to credit cards, ATM fees are a good source of income. The success of ATM fees (assuming the analogy with airlines is valid) should be a source of solace for legacy carriers, not concern.
I think it's clear that passengers are paying for the transportation of luggage; it is an inherent component of the ticket price; it’s even discussed in the contract of carriage which governs the travel. I read your objection to a separate fee as meaning that you don't like the various costs, or a portion thereof, to be separated out. That's a personal preference. The airlines are doing an experiment right now to see if the preference that you appear to have stated is shared by the flying public. As I said, if it works, expect such fees to stay; if it doesn’t work, they’ll disappear.
Reply
The ATM at the Airlines [view article]
nultech, the big question is, will you continue to fly US Airways?US Airways is definitely taking the lead when it comes to fees: howver, the checked bag fee won't apply to frequent flyers--those that reach the threshold for elite status. Here's the link that gives more information: www.usairways.com/awa/... Reply