jse17

Lithium-Ion Batteries for Hybrid Vehicles?

Juan Carlos,

I appreciate that you have responded diligently to questions raised. Additionally, I sincerely hope the Bolivian citizen’s benefit from Li-Ion’s LIMITED durational era.

Lithium-Ion Batteries for Hybrid Vehicles?

jse-17, After the recent evaluation by Consumer
> Reports of Honda`s Insight, one begins to think that this company
> needs some restructuring. But be aware that even Honda is working
> with Yuasa right now to equip its future hybrids with Li-ion batteries.

The question becomes, does the consumer hop on the Bolivian Li-Ion express as per GM and Toyota, or wait until Honda, an unquestioned quality fanatic gives the all clear. I appreciate that as a Bolivian national and a citizen of the earth’s almost exclusive Lithium producer your answer may be diametrically different than the long suffering average American consumer. To say it will be different this time and consumers can count on Bolivian Lithium production for the foreseeable future appears in context so detrimentally trite!

I do not wish to be last in line to embrace “wondrous” technology improvements but I will permit others to be first!

Lithium-Ion Batteries for Hybrid Vehicles?

TY for a wonderfully informative review of Lithium Ion battery technology. Various car companies approach to Li-Ion production deserves review in context.

GM is full throttle ahead in placing its Volt into the marketplace. Honda at the present time appears to have little or no interest ATPIT. At first glance, the HMC avoidance approach creates concern regarding the company’s future in neglecting a wunderkind quantum leap forward. HMC’s corporate hierarchy, however, traditionally consists of highly, skilled engineers with a strong tradition of amazingly buyer friendly, quality products.

Alas, GM favors bean counters as officers whose focus is anything other than consumer satisfaction (feel free to disagree with this point at your own peril) e.g., Rick Wagoner (the Carly Fiorina of auto executives). Additionally, Toyota under the leadership (or lack thereof) of CEO Watanabe, a non-engineer marketer, who Americanized the company into bottom line profits with exceedingly adverse quality results is firmly on the Li-Ion production schedule. Watanabe is now gone with a Toyoda family member in place but the Li-Ion Prius plans predated this strategic restructuring.

Yes, it does appear reasonable to follow the author’s lead supported by the HMC approach and pass on Li-Ion supported vehicles until/if the inherent problems are corrected/eliminated. As the noted British poets, The Who, crooned, “Won’t Get Fooled AGAIN!”



On Jul 12 09:30 AM Tdot wrote:

> There have been many technical challenges to deploying Lithium Ion
> batteries in automobiles that the author seems unaware of.
>
> Shelf life is one of the major issues, due to the inherent increasing
> internal resistance within the batteries with age. As an example,
> Li-ion batteries in laptop notebook computers and cell phones lose
> about 20% of their charge capacity each year, and typically need
> to be replaced within 2-5 years. Customers typically get a new cell
> phone or battery, or a fresh notebook battery, every couple of years
> when the battery becomes unable to hold a charge for sufficient time.
> This would never work for cars. Auto makers cannot hope to count
> on high customer satisfaction, or ave a profitable business plan,
> if the car has noticeably decreasing range as the months of ownership
> go by, especially if the battery must be replaced every 2-5 years.
> Yes - it is easy to make a new Lithium-Ion powered electric or hybrid
> electric car for demonstration and car show purposes. It is well
> nigh impossible to have it maintain a useful range for a full life
> of 5 to 10 years - or at least for the purchase payment and warranty
> period. Replacing a $5000+ battery every 2-5 of years is just not
> an option for automotive retail customer, nor a manufacturer. That
> has become a major issue to solve. The NiMH batteries used in Hybrids
> (Prius etc.) to date have been veryy good for the long term - very
> rarely have they needed to be repaired or replaced other than perhaps
> after accidents.
>
> Another issue has been high heat in Li-Ion batteries. You may recall
> the issue of certain notebook computers melting down or catching
> fire, due to the Lithium battery overheating while charging up or
> during use. This is also related to the inherently high internal
> resistance, and obviously could never be tolerated in automobiles.
> High heat also dramatically reduces the useful life of a Li-ion battery,
> and in automobiles, elaborate (and expensive) battery cooling systems
> must be added. Essentially, to try to maintain the range capability,
> the battery must have its own air conditioner and heater; or it must
> draw on the warmth or coolness from the passenger compartment, to
> keep it in the "comfortable" range, as the weather varies from the
> coldest winters to the hottest summers. If the driver shuts off the
> AC cooling system in the summer to try to increase range "for today",
> the battery suffers and the long term range capability actually drops.
>
>
> To get Li-Ion batteries "ready for prime time" in Hybrid-Electric
> (including Plug-Ins) and full Battery Electric automotive applications,
> massive (and expensive) efforts are underway to try to improve the
> cell chemistry, battery-cell configuration, charging systems, cooling
> systems, etc., in an effort to maximize daily range, and the useful
> life of the vehicle over time without having to replace the batteries.
> The battery and automotive companies have business plans in place
> to try to finish up those efforts in the next year or two, but there
> is still a lot of work to be done. No company wants to risk ending
> up with an inferior, uncompetitive product after spending billions
> and betting the farm to try to rush something to market. That is
> the road to bankruptcy.
>
> Hybrids, Plug-in Hybrids, and Battery Electric vehicles using the
> next generation Li-ion batteries are coming, but it will be another
> year or two before the technology and production facilities are truly
> ready for mass production. The batteries and their support systems
> (charging, cooling, etc.) have to be developed concurrently with
> the application (vehicles). It is definitely a race, and the first
> to the finish line will have some "laurels" because of it. But battery
> and automotive companies that try to take short cuts just to be able
> to say they were "the first" may end up with an inferior product
> that could be obsolete (or require major system overhaul on warranty)
> after only a year or two, and end up losing their reputation, if
> not the farm.

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When T. Boone speaks, get in your fuel cell powered Honda and distance yourself maximally.

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Fool me 100 times, shame on them! Fool me 101 times.......SOS!


On Jun 25 01:43 PM TinyTim wrote:

> "The survey measures mechanical and design problems that show up
> in the first 90 days of ownership"
>
> useless. show me data on long term reliability and cost of ownership

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www.closed-endfunds.co...

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Gee, is there a message here!!!!!

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