User 169775

Are Hybrid Vehicles Worth the Price?

On 2008 Nov 22 06:00 PM lesceil wrote:


> 2. Battery lifetime has not been proven by a long history, but for
> all I have experienced with rechargeable batteries before, they get
> stale quicker than advertised.

You don't understand how the battery in a hybrid car works.

They last VERY long because they are NOT deep-discharged like your rechargeable batteries.

Rechargeable batteries wear out because of all the full-charge-then-full-... cycles. Hybrid car batteries DO NOT do that.

The Prius hybrid computer is always trying to keep the charge state of its hybrid battery between 60%-80%, where it has a life span measured in decades. Even when you see the charge state in the Prius MFD display a low charge state of just 2 red bars, the battery is still 60% charged.

Purely Battery-powered electric cars like the Tesla do go through full-charge-then-disch... cycles, which is why their battery life is problematic-- Tesla recommends replacing the battery pack in the Roadster after 5 years. Non-plug-in hybrids do not suffer from this problem because they don't deep-discharge their batteries.

GM's Chevy Volt Should Help Recapture Market Share

I don't think the Volt will be very practical.

First of all, it has that huge battery pack down the middle of the car, which means the back has two bucket seats-- No car-width bench seat like a regular sedan. That means the Volt will seat 4, not 5.

People looking for a family car may reject it just for that reason alone.

Then you got the T-shaped battery pack extending well into the trunk space, and the bucket seats don't fold down, so you are stuck with a tiny trunk.

In comparison, the Toyota Prius seats 5 and has the versatility of a hatchback with fold-down rear seats, and costs $10,000 less (accounting for the $7500 Volt tax credit).

The Volt is going to suffer the same kind of impracticality that doomed the first-generation Honda Insight.

I'd rather buy the $49,000 Tesla Model S (which also qualifies for the $7500 tax credit). It seats 5, and costs less to maintain because it has no gasoline engine like the Volt, and you can order a Model S right now.

Latest on Hybrids: Toyota Yaris for U.S.

This is nothing new...

Between 1997 and 2003, Toyota had a compact hybrid built on the Echo/Vitz platform (the platform from which the Yaris is developed on).

What was this Yaris-sized compact hybrid?

The first-generation Toyota Prius! :-)

I can see how it will complement the now-much-bigger midsized 3rd-generation hatchback Prius though.

Are Hybrid Vehicles Worth the Price?

Hybrids compare favorably in terms of performance to their conventional counterparts.

For instance, the Ford Escape Hybrid has a combined output of 196hp from its I-4 engine and electrical motor. The regular I-4 Escape has 171hp.

Are Hybrid Vehicles Worth the Price?

Replacing the battery pack is not an issue. All current new hybrids sold in the U.S. have an 8-year / 100,000-mile warranty on the battery, and the warranty is extended to 10 years / 150,000-miles in the 8 states with California-standard emissions laws.

If it fails within the warranty period, the cost of replacement is FREE.

That is assuming you didn't do anything stupid to void the warranty, like crash the car, tamper with the hybrid system, etc.

Failure of the battery pack in the 2nd-generation Prius within warranty terms is virtually unheard-of.

Will GM's Volt Change History?

BTW, Bob Lutz has already said the Volt is going to cost $40,000: gm-volt.com/2008/06/18.../

Not sure how a $40,000 volt is going to compete against a $30,000 PHEV Prius with similar capabilities.

Will GM's Volt Change History?

@142738:

The base price for the Prius is $22,000, of which $3000 is the cost of the current Nickel-Metal-Hydride battery.

Take out the NiMH battery and put in the $10,000 Lion battery, you end up with a $30,000 PHEV Prius.

You need to check your math, amigo.

Will GM's Volt Change History?

Problem is, the best-laid plans of mice and GM will go awry when Toyota throws a monkey wrench into the works...

Toyota will be introducing a later version of its 3rd Generation Prius at around the same time, also to be powered by a Lion battery pack which can also give the Prius a 40-mile pure-electric range, just like the Volt. And it is expected to cost about $30,000. That's $10,000 less than the Volt.

When the average head of household is given a choice between the two cars with similar capability but $10,000 difference in price, it makes for a HUGE monkey wrench in GM's plans.

That's what happens when you give your rival a 10-year head-start in developing HEV/PHEV technology. :-P

Will GM's Volt Change History?

Problem is, the best-laid plans of mice and GM will go awry when Toyota throws a monkey wrench into the works...

Toyota will be introducing a later version of its 3rd Generation Prius at around the same time, also to be powered by a Lion battery pack which can also give the Prius a 40-mile pure-electric range, just like the Volt. And it is expected to cost about $30,000. That's $10,000 less than the Volt.

When the average head of household is given a choice between the two cars with similar capability but $10,000 difference in price, it makes for a HUGE monkey wrench in GM's plans.

That's what happens when you give your rival a 10-year head-start in developing HEV/PHEV technology. :-P

Brand Names: Important, But Not Key to Investment Decisions

...Except even though people thought the Japanese cars in the 70s and 80s weren't well-built, they still bought them in droves because they got BETTER FUEL ECONOMY.

This year it's history repeating itself-- People buying Toyota Corollas that can get 30mpg COMBINED (not just highway as GM and Ford have been advertising) because of $4/gallon gas.

Ford and GM needs to realize that not only do they need to build cars that are put together well, they also need to make cars that are MORE FUEL EFFICIENT than the Japanese if they want to regain market share in North America.

The situation in Europe for Ford is not applicable here in North America. Ford is doing well in Europe because they have less-stringent emissions laws, which means Ford's fuel-efficient diesel cars are a big hit there. They can NEVER sell those diesels as-is here, because they don't meet the EPA's Tier2 emissions standards.

The situation for GM in China is also NOT applicable for the North American market-- GM is doing well in China because gas is still cheap there at $2 a gallon, and the noveau-riche Chinese middle class don't mind buying gas-guzzlers because of that.

Until one of the Big Three can produce a 50mpg car that is street-legal in the U.S. with comparable reliability and cost about the same as the Toyota Prius, they are not going to gain back market share in the era of $4/gallon gas.

(Don't bother mentioning the Chevy Volt. Sucker is going to cost $40,000 and by the time it comes out Toyota will have its 3rd-gen PHEV Prius with similar 40-mile-electric capability in the showrooms for $30,000.)

Chrysler's Rebadging Plan: Strategic Blunder for Nissan?

@211293:

Agreed. Toyota has left the door open for Chrysler to introduce a hybrid minivan for the past 5 years. And Chrysler has not taken advantage of it!

The window of opportunity is closing fast. Toyota has been selling their Estima Hybrid minivan in Japan for years, and in the next couple years they plan to bring it to the U.S. as the Sienna Hybrid.

The opportunity is there.. It's just Chrysler is doing everything they can to flub it!

The Electric Car Battery Battle

The compressed air to be used in the MDI car is going to be pressurized to 4500PSI. Personally, I'd rather not sit in a car with a tank pressurized to 4500PSI in the back. If that sucker ruptures, whoever is sitting in the driver's seat is going to become hamburger.

Objectivity is right. Imagine the amount of power needed to compress that air to 4500PSI. When you buy a fillup of that air at 4500PSI, you are paying for the gasoline to run the compressor to compress that air to 4500PSI. Sorry air-car fans, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Detroit: Tow Ridiculous

bobjou:

I don't see the point of your complaint. The current market conditions is awesome for you country folks who need to buy SUVs-- The carmakers are offering them with 0% financing or incentives up to $6000. It's a great time to buy an SUV if you actually need one.

Fact is 79% of the U.S. population lives in urban areas according to the 2000 U.S. Census. Most of those folks don't need to haul bushels of crop or tow trailers with livestock, and with fuel prices being what they are, it is only natural that they are migrating to 4-cylinder cars. U.S. carmakers have encountered this situation before in the 1970s, apparently they never studied history so now they are doomed to repeat it.

Market forces at work.

Is One Automaker Default Almost a Sure Thing?

Catching up to Toyota in quality is nothing groundbreaking.

Considering that in the past 10 years Detroit spent the same amount on R&D as the 10-year Apollo Program, you would expect them to put out revolutionary things!

I remain unimpressed.

Detroit: Tow Ridiculous

In the larger scheme of things, does CAFE even matter? The true character of the auto companies will out during the oil shocks, again and again (1970s and today)-- Those who have the prescience to offer fuel-efficient cars are surviving, those who don't are getting crushed.

I say leave Detroit to their devices and let market forces determine their fate.