User 169775

Are Hybrid Vehicles Worth the Price?

On 2008 Nov 22 06:00 PM lesceil wrote:


> 2. Battery lifetime has not been proven by a long history, but for
> all I have experienced with rechargeable batteries before, they get
> stale quicker than advertised.

You don't understand how the battery in a hybrid car works.

They last VERY long because they are NOT deep-discharged like your rechargeable batteries.

Rechargeable batteries wear out because of all the full-charge-then-full-... cycles. Hybrid car batteries DO NOT do that.

The Prius hybrid computer is always trying to keep the charge state of its hybrid battery between 60%-80%, where it has a life span measured in decades. Even when you see the charge state in the Prius MFD display a low charge state of just 2 red bars, the battery is still 60% charged.

Purely Battery-powered electric cars like the Tesla do go through full-charge-then-disch... cycles, which is why their battery life is problematic-- Tesla recommends replacing the battery pack in the Roadster after 5 years. Non-plug-in hybrids do not suffer from this problem because they don't deep-discharge their batteries.

GM's Chevy Volt Should Help Recapture Market Share

I don't think the Volt will be very practical.

First of all, it has that huge battery pack down the middle of the car, which means the back has two bucket seats-- No car-width bench seat like a regular sedan. That means the Volt will seat 4, not 5.

People looking for a family car may reject it just for that reason alone.

Then you got the T-shaped battery pack extending well into the trunk space, and the bucket seats don't fold down, so you are stuck with a tiny trunk.

In comparison, the Toyota Prius seats 5 and has the versatility of a hatchback with fold-down rear seats, and costs $10,000 less (accounting for the $7500 Volt tax credit).

The Volt is going to suffer the same kind of impracticality that doomed the first-generation Honda Insight.

I'd rather buy the $49,000 Tesla Model S (which also qualifies for the $7500 tax credit). It seats 5, and costs less to maintain because it has no gasoline engine like the Volt, and you can order a Model S right now.

Are Hybrid Vehicles Worth the Price?

Hybrids compare favorably in terms of performance to their conventional counterparts.

For instance, the Ford Escape Hybrid has a combined output of 196hp from its I-4 engine and electrical motor. The regular I-4 Escape has 171hp.

Are Hybrid Vehicles Worth the Price?

Replacing the battery pack is not an issue. All current new hybrids sold in the U.S. have an 8-year / 100,000-mile warranty on the battery, and the warranty is extended to 10 years / 150,000-miles in the 8 states with California-standard emissions laws.

If it fails within the warranty period, the cost of replacement is FREE.

That is assuming you didn't do anything stupid to void the warranty, like crash the car, tamper with the hybrid system, etc.

Failure of the battery pack in the 2nd-generation Prius within warranty terms is virtually unheard-of.

Will GM's Volt Change History?

BTW, Bob Lutz has already said the Volt is going to cost $40,000: gm-volt.com/2008/06/18.../

Not sure how a $40,000 volt is going to compete against a $30,000 PHEV Prius with similar capabilities.

Will GM's Volt Change History?

@142738:

The base price for the Prius is $22,000, of which $3000 is the cost of the current Nickel-Metal-Hydride battery.

Take out the NiMH battery and put in the $10,000 Lion battery, you end up with a $30,000 PHEV Prius.

You need to check your math, amigo.

Will GM's Volt Change History?

Problem is, the best-laid plans of mice and GM will go awry when Toyota throws a monkey wrench into the works...

Toyota will be introducing a later version of its 3rd Generation Prius at around the same time, also to be powered by a Lion battery pack which can also give the Prius a 40-mile pure-electric range, just like the Volt. And it is expected to cost about $30,000. That's $10,000 less than the Volt.

When the average head of household is given a choice between the two cars with similar capability but $10,000 difference in price, it makes for a HUGE monkey wrench in GM's plans.

That's what happens when you give your rival a 10-year head-start in developing HEV/PHEV technology. :-P

Will GM's Volt Change History?

Problem is, the best-laid plans of mice and GM will go awry when Toyota throws a monkey wrench into the works...

Toyota will be introducing a later version of its 3rd Generation Prius at around the same time, also to be powered by a Lion battery pack which can also give the Prius a 40-mile pure-electric range, just like the Volt. And it is expected to cost about $30,000. That's $10,000 less than the Volt.

When the average head of household is given a choice between the two cars with similar capability but $10,000 difference in price, it makes for a HUGE monkey wrench in GM's plans.

That's what happens when you give your rival a 10-year head-start in developing HEV/PHEV technology. :-P

Chrysler's Rebadging Plan: Strategic Blunder for Nissan?

@211293:

Agreed. Toyota has left the door open for Chrysler to introduce a hybrid minivan for the past 5 years. And Chrysler has not taken advantage of it!

The window of opportunity is closing fast. Toyota has been selling their Estima Hybrid minivan in Japan for years, and in the next couple years they plan to bring it to the U.S. as the Sienna Hybrid.

The opportunity is there.. It's just Chrysler is doing everything they can to flub it!

Is One Automaker Default Almost a Sure Thing?

Catching up to Toyota in quality is nothing groundbreaking.

Considering that in the past 10 years Detroit spent the same amount on R&D as the 10-year Apollo Program, you would expect them to put out revolutionary things!

I remain unimpressed.

Is One Automaker Default Almost a Sure Thing?

Just how does the Big Three spending their $19 Billion / year of R&D money? What do they have to show for it?

To put it in perspective, the Apollo program cost the U.S. government $20 billion over a period of 10 years, and it put men on the moon and spurred revolutionary technologies such as integrated circuit miniaturization and fly-by-wire controls.

Even after adjusting for inflation, $19 billion per year for 10 years from the Big Three would have been equal to the the expenditure of the Apollo program. What does the Big Three have to show for it for the past 10 years (1998-2008)?

Auto Sales Are Cause for Optimism

I think people didn't overbuy cars like they did houses because people know cars are not an investment-- The car starts depreciating in value the moment you drive it off the dealer's lot. Houses on the other hand were seen as investments and expected to appreciate in value over time.

Still, what people DID overbuy when it comes to cars is size.. Look at how so many are frantically looking to unload their superhuge gas-guzzling SUVs right now. :-)

How GM Plans to Muddle Through

DRich:

Unfortunately, EMD is no longer part of GM. It got sold off in 2005. In its last years under GM management, EMD seems to be heading downhill too-- They were getting their butts kicked by General Electric's Dash-9s, AC4400CWs and the Gevos.

John Smyth:

Keep in mind in 2010 Toyota will be releasing its plug-in 3rd-generation Prius with the same Lithium Ion technology as the GM Volt, also with a 40-mile pure-electric range. AND, the 3rd-gen PHEV Prius will be selling for about $30,000 compared to $40,000 for the Volt. Things don't look good.

I'm not buying an GM stock until I see it becomes positive-equity (i.e. it owes less than what the stock float is worth), and it gets 2 consecutive profitable quarters.

How Is GM Still Alive?

stockguy456:

Not mocking legit hydrogen fuel-cell cars like the Honda FCX Clarity, but just how do you propose to fuel them? Not until most gas stations in the U.S. has a hydrogen-dispensing pump will FC vehicles become practical.

And how long would that take? 10 years? 15 years? Not fast enough to save GM's bacon, I'm afraid.

How Is GM Still Alive?

Discord: If you believe those "run your car on water" scams actually work, I got a bridge in Brooklyn and beachfront property in Arizona I'd like to sell you.