Doug Korthof

Testing Plug-In Hybrids: What the Results Mean

There's a VAST difference in type of battery.
Hymotion is using Lithium, which so far has not been economical in plug-in cars.

The best and most economical battery for plug-ins is NiMH, which can be improved to last for more than 100,000 miles (perhaps more than 200,000 miles) and can be ENTIRELY recycled.

Not a fantasy: the Toyota RAV4-EV, as well as the 1999 EV1, RangerEV and HondaEV, all use NiMH, as well as the Prius, Insight, etc., no one expects Lithium to actually work in plug-in cars.

Ask youirself, why aren't auto makers using more economical, longer-lasting, proven technology, NiMH??

The answer may surprise you, it has nothing to do with weight (Lithium batteries weighing 400 lbs. in the so-called VOLT only yield 8 kWh; whereas lead or NiMH of the same weight would yield up to 12 kWh, enough to go up to 72 miles on a charge).

WHY NOT USE NIMH?? Even lead-acid would be fine for the VOLT, or other "extended range EVs", the 1997 and 1999 EV1 wtih PSB lead acid had over 100 miles range, the bateries are fully recyclable, and the cost is almost as low as NiMH for the life of the batteries.

Toyota’s Plug-in Prius Heads for France

Since Toyota already HAS an all-electric vehicle, the Toyota RAV4-EV, why do they need to "test" them??

The Toyota RAV4-EV, last sold in Nov., 2002, is running fine on the original pre-2002 NiMH battery packs, hundreds of them charging up from rooftop solar power.

It only takes 250 kWh of electric to drive 1000 miles per month, about a quarter of the electric used by the average sprawled home. It only takes a 1.3 kW solar system to produce that much electric; easily paid for by the money you save NOT buying gasoline.

Auto Industry Recovery Once Again Postponed

We already have Nickel Metal Hydride, the onl y battery proven to last longer than the life of the car; but lead-acid works too. Lithium has not been proven to work in an Electric car, no Lithium EV has so far gone more than 50,000 miles without significant battery degradation.

Yet we are still driving 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV with NiMH batteries, the same battery packs, but we can't buy replacement NiMH because Toyota stopped making them after Chevron funded a lawsuit that collected $30 million. Chevron bought control of the worldwide patent licensing rights from GM, and renamed GM-Ovonics to Chevron-Ovonics BAttery SYStems (cobasys).

So why not NiMH??

The fact that no supposed EV maker is using the batteries that work tells you that they are not serious and don't intend to make an EV that works.

Lithium: higher cost, lower life, no junk value;
NiMH: Chevron (an oil company) controls the patent licensing rights, none offered.

Auto Industry Recovery Once Again Postponed

Plug-in Electric cars and solar rooftop power are the ONLY full solution to reducing oil and oil-based pollution.

GM and the other Auto Alliance members just this year killed the Zero Emission Vehicle Mandate (California and 13 other states) all over again; clearly, without some strength of character in the government, the auto makers won't make a plug-in car.

The oil industry has too much control over car makers, because oil is where the big money is.

Chrysler's Rebadging Plan: Strategic Blunder for Nissan?

Well, Nissan has nothing to lose with this deal (it can sell less-than-perfect seconds to Chrysler); and Chrysler has nothing to lose either (doesn't cost them a thing to stock a rebranded Nissan; at worst, they don't sell).

On the other hand, most likely, they won't gain, either. But for Chrysler, it's worth the gamble: no loss vs. some possible gain, however unlikely.

Chrysler's problems are legion, but NONE of them involve the UAW or line workers. ALL of them involve betting the company on big, gas-guzzling monster hemi-mobiles; they just don't have the expertise, let alone the money, to develop a small excellent car.

Chrysler's best bet is to sell some brands to a company like Nissan that wants to be considered 'American'. And that's what they seem to be starting to do. If I were them, I'd rebrand the Nissans as "Plymouth" or even "Desoto", and eventually drop the Chysler connection, just sell them at rebranded Nissan dealers as "Plymouth Dealer". After all, Nissan was once Datsun...

The Electric Car Battery Battle

Hanglider dude, there is NO PLACE for Hydrogen as a motive power for cars; if it made sense to use a compressed gas, CNG is much more energy-dense at lower psi, is proven, doesn't need a fuel cell stack, and there's already a delivery system of charging stations. Also, it's a clean fuel, you get the same sticker as an EV.

Hydrogen is a HOAX.

You can run H2 cars, at a cost of $10/mile, just for show; but if anyone tries to SELL a fuel cell car for $50,000, buy it, you can dismantle it and sell the parts to easily double your money! Sure, it works, in space, where cost doesn't matter and they carry technical-grade O2 as well as technical-grade H2; but YOU CAIN'T DO THAT on the roads here!! NONE of the FCX carry their own technical-grade Oxygen, which is why they only last 3 years.

As for EEStor, we all hope for the best, but there's no reason to believe anything they say, to this point. The term "vaporware" springs to mind. Similar to GM's lies about resuming EV production, or last night's beer-bust conversation, EEStore's promises seem to evaporate in the light of day.

The Electric Car Battery Battle

J.S., you are ignoring diesel-electric locomotives, the standard; they are essentially serial-hybrid Electric vehicles.

The supposed VOLT uses the same basic configuration; it works and has been proven successful, with or without batteries. Large earthmoving machinery, also, is serial-hybrid.

The problem is, GM has no intention of honestly making the VOLT, they are planning to sabotage it, just as they sabotaged the EV1.

(PS, diesel-electric locomotives use electric braking, but since diesel has been so cheap, they don't yet store the recaptured energy of motion in a battery; they dissipate it via heat exchangers. Electrified rail is great, but diesel-electrics with batteries work too. The thing is, it's always more efficient to generate the electric in a central plant, not on the fly! You're right about that)

The Electric Car Battery Battle

EEStor is questionable: they have no reality to this point. An EV needs three things:

1. Superior power (at least 50,000W, or 50 kW, 68 hp to take off from a stop). Many batteries, for example ZnO, can't supply this; and for Lithium, it seems to degrade them.

2. Deep cycle, at least 25 kWh for 100 miles range. Non-volatile Lithium has a problem with this: for example the VOLT has to BUY 16 kWh to use 8 of them.

3. Long cycle-life, at least 1,000, preferrably 2,000, for a life of 100K to 200K miles for the pack.

ONLY NIMH HAS BEEN PROVEN TO DO ALL THREE.

So obviously, Toyota (and Honda) are sticking with what works. If Lithium ever works in an EV (for example, if the Tesla battery pack goes over 100K miles), then they will use it; but to rely on it before it's proven is not prudent.

The Electric Car Battery Battle

Compressed-air cars are a hoax: you can go 25 miles per hour for 25 miles, but you have to compress the air! It's easier, faster and cheaper to run a Neighborhood EV, which does the same thing, costs less, and lasts longer, using cheap lead-acid golf-cart batteries. LOL to the air car!!

The Electric Car Battery Battle

Ghosn is an idiot about batteries; Nissan's failed Lithium Altera was crushed and not mourned.

GM's slimy claim that Lithium is needed for the VOLT ignores the only proven EV batteries, NiMH and lead-acid. NiMH is the longest-lasting and the most reliable at a low life-cycle cost, and lead-acid is the very lowest life-cycle cost but doesn't last quite as long.

So why go to Lithium? So far, no Lithium EV has gone more than 50K miles without significant battery degradation.

And stupid GM, their 16 kWh of Lithium from A123, costing perhaps $32,000, only yields 8 kWh of energy for 400 lbs. of battery.

400 lbs. of NiMH contains 12 kWh of accessible energy at a cost of perhaps $5,000 (even in small quantities). So NiMH is superior in lighter weight, longer life, lower cost and higher reliability.

But stupid GM talks about Lithium, like it talks about fuel cells -- all hogwash.

The reality is, we are still driving Toyota RAV4-EV, over 100 miles range on a charge, last sold in Nov., 2002, on the same battery pack -- Chevron won't sell us replacement batteries, they bought control of GM-Ovonics, which controls the patents, and sued Toyota, which now is afraid to supply replacement batteries.

The Electric Car Battery Battle

The Bike is a known liar. We are driving 100-mile-range Toyota RAV4-EV, last sold in Nov., 2002.

They drive GREAT.

But there's never been a Lithium car that drove over 100,000 miles on the same battery.

The Electric Car Battery Battle

Nissan is a hoax, so far as Electric cars go. Nissan knows SQUAT about the batteries; its failed Altera and Hype-rmini all had to be destroyed presumably because Nissan, like GM, was ashamed of their own failure.

Toyota, on the other hand, willingly sold the last 300 RAV4-EV, using NiMH, and they are almost all on the road still, added to hundreds of fleet-run RAV4-EV.

Ghosn is a jokester and a hypester.

Impact of GM Destroying the EV1

If GM were so concerned about the cost of building the EV1 -- and many posters here are swallowing GM lies about it -- then why did they crush or gut every one, instead of selling these "valuable" cars to willing buyers???

Slow Start for Lithium-ion Hybrids

You don't understand. Lithium is, like Fuel Cells, just a mythology to delay introduction of the EV.

The only proven batteries are NiMH, still running in Toyota RAV4-EV, last sold in 2002, and lead-acid.

So the fact that NO company is using NiMH for plug-in EVs, but are "researching" Lithium, indicates that they don't want to do plug-in EVs.

Those who believe in Lithium EVs, Hydrogen cars, or the Easter Bunny ... well, they can just continue to believe. Faith is free, if frivolous.

Meanwhile, we continue to drive our oil-free Toyota RAV4-EV, on excellent NiMH batteries.

Impact of GM Destroying the EV1

PS, Toyota did NOT crush their RAV4-EV, they sold the last 328 off to the public between May and Nov., 2002; those are almost all running still in the hands of private citizens, being used to pay for rooftop solar electric systems.
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