AT&T And Verizon Break Up Bid For Vodafone? [View article]
Mike,
Not selling. The reason is I hope one of my scenarios happens. The last thing I want now is a cash deal and to have to pay capital gains tax leaving me with less to invest after taxes (I own all three in both my taxable and pretax accounts, but the stakes in my taxable account are twice as large). I prefer a tax free stock deal no matter what happens.
Jeezzzz .... think about it. Neither VZ or T can easily afford to pay cash without taking on more debt, and VOD will get top dollar for its stake in VZW whether paid with stock or cash.
Whereas many say VZ has VOD over a barrel, I don't see it that way because VZ needs the cash from VZW as much as VOD, and VZ can't get it unless VOD gets its share as well.
Just realized that the reason I may not have gotten an alert for your message and that I was on line writing a fairly long comment about VZ, T, and VOD and SA probably timed out your alert. The comment is here http://seekingalpha.co...
I should probably have logged off while writing it.
I never noticed the Print Dialogue at the bottom. Will try it out. I simply use the print function that pops up after I click the right mouse button. Whereas SA articles print out OK, many web pages don't. Between Firefox and Chrome I've managed to get what I want. In fact, Firefox's print mode is worse than Chrome's for what I print. IE prints the best, but my IE is very sluggish (maybe because it's IE 8).
Anyway, thanks for the leads-up on the Print Dialogue towards the bottom of the page.
Here's irony for you. I got no alert that you left a message. Rather, my old habit kicked in making me look to see if anyone commented. Ugh!
But, its print function sucks, and there are other problems related to formatting. I also use Firefox and, every now and then, IE.
Firefox and Google are my workhorse browsers, but they are very different in what each excels at. I think my biggest problem with IE is that, because I use Windows XP Pro, I can't use anything newer than IE 8.
It's probably time for a new laptop, even though the one I use works great.
AT&T And Verizon Break Up Bid For Vodafone? [View article]
I own VOD, T, and VZ.
I don't think VOD can be bought and split up by VZ and T. Real or not, there will be objections to a cash buy out of VOD because VOD contributes far too much income to UK's pensioners. There would likely be a slew of hurdles imposed, including some mindful of T's failure to acquire T-Mobile from Deutsche Telekom for $39 billion in 2011.
One way to lower the hurdles of T and VZ buying VOD would be to pay with shares of T and VZ. That way the dividend stream would not end and whatever capital gain taxes might be due are postponed until ordered selling by the funds for other reasons than a forced sale. The UK funds will vote in their interests.
I see two scenarios. VZ buys VZW at mutually agreeable price, or the two companies merge.
VZ can't afford to buy 45% of VZW using debt and stopping there. But, VZ can afford to buy 45% of VZW if, after the purchase, a portion of VZW is spun out to the public at any percent much smaller than 45% (pick your favorite numbers, as I have) so VZ can pay down debt. The wild card is whether the bankers will get top share price for VZW.
Or, VZ can buy, say, half of VOD's interests in VZW under terms that *guarantee* annual dividend payments to VOD stemming from its remaining interest in VZW. VOD gets cash, and a guaranteed dividend stream. VZ gets a larger share of VZW, a portion of which can also be spun out to the public. Good for VOD, less so for VZ but not really bad at all.
Or, VZ can buy VOD's interests over time, using pre-set minimum prices in a deal structured, perhaps, similarly to F. Hoffman La Roche's purchase of Genentech. Drop-dead dates and firm prices that increase over time, with lapsed terms if the deadline was not met. Magnificent because it was tailored to be in the best interests of both parties. Such agreements serve as a useful template for VZ and VOD.
Or, VZ and VOD merge. But, how likely is that? There are control issues (we've all seen these things before; is this a US- or UK-listed company headquartered in London, NYC, or Bermuda, or your favorite asteroid ... and who runs it, and who runs the person running it?). It can be structured so it gets done. Many have thought about it and I'm sure there are several more workable scenarios. I do believe the wild card would be cessation of dividends to the UK pension system which creates motivation to set very high barriers. So, create one entity and list the mutha on both the NYSE and FTSE.
"The second is purely you, the "not responding" is likely because SA has timed out waiting for you to request the next chunk of comment data to continue the page layout."
Used to happen to me a lot, for the reason you gave. I figured out a workaround.
Whenever I sign in and there are lots of comments to read for several articles, I open each unread page in a new tab and then I log off.
That way, I can review at my leisure, and SA isn't timing anything.
It still happens, just much less. Thus, I suspect it happens for another reason, too.
I assume you use a Windows computer. If so, read on.
If you don't know how to use your browser's settings to clear cache, or various Window's settings to boost performance, then it's easier to download a program that does it all for you. Frankly, I do know how to do all of this manually, but I use CCleaner instead because it's one stop shopping.
Download the free version of CCLeaner (formerly called Crap Cleaner). It's a great program. To use it, you need to close down your browsers and run it.
Until you learn more about how to use it, stay away from all tabs other than the one at the very top left. In other words, ignore the tabs for the registry, etc. and only clean the crap that doesn't require knowing anything (much).
Download it, open it, and before using it look at the left side. You will see various choices. Pick the one a the very top ... for the cleaner.
There are two tabs for the cleaner: Windows and Applications
Under Windows, select everything from the top down, and stop at the selection of "Chkdsk File Fragments."
Under Applications, I selected pretty much everything.
It's very easy to use, and there's almost nothing you can do to screw up your computer.
"'''Once it gets past about 200, my PC freezes up.'''
Try clearing cache more often and, if necessary, rebooting. It works for me. It also helps a lot if I close the browser and then open a different browser for a new session, even if I don't clear cache in the first browser used.
We are in violent agreement. I use an accountant, so the K-1s wouldn't be a deterrent. I did read a lot about MLP taxation issues and also had a brief chat with my accountant. The short of it is that there are far too many ill-defined risks beyond one's control for my tastes. The lure of high yield and potential profits are better suited for those willing and able to monitor such investments on a frequent basis, and have the stomach for it.
Yes. there's too much other low hanging fruit to be pulled to spend my time squeezing the harder berries. Simply said, and well put.
Thanks for the heads-up. I was wrong to use the word guru, because I just don't know how consistently valid his advice and expertise are. I once did debate issues with him pertaining to LNCO, about which we agreed to disagree. I am also aware of debates Ken has had with others about tax issues. I like his articles and comments because he argues well, even if I'm not able to sort fact from fiction.
However, the concepts (not necessarily his choice of words) in his article seem to be true, such as: “much of the MLP gains will ultimately be exposed to ordinary income tax instead of capital gains tax. The spread in these two rates means the MLP needs to outperform or be held for time frames in excess of 10-20 years. The bigger the spread, the greater the out-performance or holding period needs to be.”
One big difference between what he wrote and what I would write is that I would not have written time frames such as “or be held for time frames in excess of 10-20 years” or that a longer holding period could remedy a problem.
MLPs are too difficult for me to tackle, especially when one considers that, when an underperforming MLP is sold, the tax hit may be greater than the proceeds from the sale. Time held may not ever remedy many situations.
“Maybe I need to spell it out precisely: Anecdotal evidence is useless. That was my point.”
Well, maybe I need to spell it out precisely.
Your anecdotal evidence is useless. But, I am referring to you, not the other "anonymous poster” about whom you wrote. Why? It was you who posted anecdotal evidence about something you read by another anonymous person who posted anecdotal evidence about a doing a comparison. The study details and data were not provided. Just one anecdote after another about the results of ONE person.
That was my point.
“The point is that DGI folks--who, please don't misunderstand, who I respect and admire for any number of reasons--disdain index-investing”
You come off as a wife-beater who tells his wife he loves her while smashing her into a wall. Reread your comments, and look for statements such as this one “there runs through all of these endless, self-congratulatory DGI threads a sense of evangelical righteousness where everyone else is wrong or somehow inadequate to the task of real-man-investing.”
Are you serious? “Real-man-investing”? Is this about c*ck-size?
I have no wish to do battle with you. If you understand what you have read on these many posts about dividend investing, and conclude that you prefer MTP, and to purchase funds and ETF’s, not one person would argue that you should anything but that. Yet, you continue to battle to convert those who prefer a different approach to investing. It is you who are battling. Others have chosen a different approach. There is no right or wrong, especially when the goals and objectives are different – which seems to be what you don’t understand.
As I wrote above:
“I do agree that MPT plays an important role in helping people manage their money. Of course MPT can work. No one ever said it couldn't.
And, since you claim it's right for you, then it is.
I think you missed important points, one being that dividend investors do not place as high a priority on total return as increasing income, another being that beating an index is irrelevant.”
++++++++++++++++++++++... Chowder should respond for himself. By his words” “If I can't monitor 40 high quality companies, and invest in an Index Fund or ETF's instead, I might now own 500, 1000 or 5000 different companies. If I can't monitor 40, how in the world do I monitor 5000?” I seriously doubt he meant that the reason he won’t buy an ETF is because he’d then have to forecast its likely ongoing performance by continuously monitoring thousands of individual stocks.
He wouldn’t. The man’s not a jerk. Rather, I think he meant he didn’t want to own the losers and that he prefers to build his own ETF-like portfolio that meets his own very specific criteria because no comparable ETF exists.
If I’m reading Chowder correctly, then what could be wrong with that?
"I respect your knowledge and your contributions here, but that's just a silly comment."
How relevant is the anecdotal performance of one anonymous poster to any argument? I can find anecdotal evidence to support or refute just about anything.
Why do you and this one anonymous poster think it's relevant to compare total return of an index to the performance of dividend investing for those interested in income and not total return?
I do agree that MPT plays an important role in helping people manage their money. Of course MPT can work. No one ever said it couldn't.
And, since you claim it's right for you, then it is.
I think you missed important points, one being that dividend investors do not place as high a priority on total return as increasing income, another being that beating an index is irrelevant.
Thanks for mentioning that some MLPs are actually C-Corps, despite their name. I never thought about it before.
I avoid the MLP structure because I don't want to invest in anything I can't get out of without complications. The tax preparation wouldn't bother me because, like DVK, Crosetti, and so many others trying to hold onto whatever sanity is left, I also use an account.
A full list of reasons are given in Reel Ken's recent article in which he (as a guru of the MLP space) explains why he is getting out of positions.
In a nutshell, if for any reason someone wants to sell, "much of the MLP gains will ultimately be exposed to ordinary income tax instead of capital gains tax. The spread in these two rates means the MLP needs to outperform or be held for time frames in excess of 10-20 years. The bigger the spread, the greater the out-performance or holding period needs to be."
Of course, one can escape the tax hit by dying before the sale : - )
AT&T And Verizon Break Up Bid For Vodafone? [View article]
Not selling. The reason is I hope one of my scenarios happens. The last thing I want now is a cash deal and to have to pay capital gains tax leaving me with less to invest after taxes (I own all three in both my taxable and pretax accounts, but the stakes in my taxable account are twice as large). I prefer a tax free stock deal no matter what happens.
Jeezzzz .... think about it. Neither VZ or T can easily afford to pay cash without taking on more debt, and VOD will get top dollar for its stake in VZW whether paid with stock or cash.
Whereas many say VZ has VOD over a barrel, I don't see it that way because VZ needs the cash from VZW as much as VOD, and VZ can't get it unless VOD gets its share as well.
VZ checkmated itself.
Dividend Growth Investing: Myths 11-15 [View article]
It was to David Fish ....
How's your move going?
Dividend Growth Investing: Myths 11-15 [View article]
Just realized that the reason I may not have gotten an alert for your message and that I was on line writing a fairly long comment about VZ, T, and VOD and SA probably timed out your alert. The comment is here http://seekingalpha.co...
I should probably have logged off while writing it.
Dividend Growth Investing: Myths 11-15 [View article]
I never noticed the Print Dialogue at the bottom. Will try it out. I simply use the print function that pops up after I click the right mouse button. Whereas SA articles print out OK, many web pages don't. Between Firefox and Chrome I've managed to get what I want. In fact, Firefox's print mode is worse than Chrome's for what I print. IE prints the best, but my IE is very sluggish (maybe because it's IE 8).
Anyway, thanks for the leads-up on the Print Dialogue towards the bottom of the page.
Here's irony for you. I got no alert that you left a message. Rather, my old habit kicked in making me look to see if anyone commented. Ugh!
Dividend Growth Investing: Myths 11-15 [View article]
But, its print function sucks, and there are other problems related to formatting. I also use Firefox and, every now and then, IE.
Firefox and Google are my workhorse browsers, but they are very different in what each excels at. I think my biggest problem with IE is that, because I use Windows XP Pro, I can't use anything newer than IE 8.
It's probably time for a new laptop, even though the one I use works great.
AT&T And Verizon Break Up Bid For Vodafone? [View article]
I don't think VOD can be bought and split up by VZ and T. Real or not, there will be objections to a cash buy out of VOD because VOD contributes far too much income to UK's pensioners. There would likely be a slew of hurdles imposed, including some mindful of T's failure to acquire T-Mobile from Deutsche Telekom for $39 billion in 2011.
One way to lower the hurdles of T and VZ buying VOD would be to pay with shares of T and VZ. That way the dividend stream would not end and whatever capital gain taxes might be due are postponed until ordered selling by the funds for other reasons than a forced sale. The UK funds will vote in their interests.
I see two scenarios. VZ buys VZW at mutually agreeable price, or the two companies merge.
VZ can't afford to buy 45% of VZW using debt and stopping there. But, VZ can afford to buy 45% of VZW if, after the purchase, a portion of VZW is spun out to the public at any percent much smaller than 45% (pick your favorite numbers, as I have) so VZ can pay down debt. The wild card is whether the bankers will get top share price for VZW.
Or, VZ can buy, say, half of VOD's interests in VZW under terms that *guarantee* annual dividend payments to VOD stemming from its remaining interest in VZW. VOD gets cash, and a guaranteed dividend stream. VZ gets a larger share of VZW, a portion of which can also be spun out to the public. Good for VOD, less so for VZ but not really bad at all.
Or, VZ can buy VOD's interests over time, using pre-set minimum prices in a deal structured, perhaps, similarly to F. Hoffman La Roche's purchase of Genentech. Drop-dead dates and firm prices that increase over time, with lapsed terms if the deadline was not met. Magnificent because it was tailored to be in the best interests of both parties. Such agreements serve as a useful template for VZ and VOD.
Or, VZ and VOD merge. But, how likely is that? There are control issues (we've all seen these things before; is this a US- or UK-listed company headquartered in London, NYC, or Bermuda, or your favorite asteroid ... and who runs it, and who runs the person running it?). It can be structured so it gets done. Many have thought about it and I'm sure there are several more workable scenarios. I do believe the wild card would be cessation of dividends to the UK pension system which creates motivation to set very high barriers. So, create one entity and list the mutha on both the NYSE and FTSE.
Dividend Growth Investing: Myths 11-15 [View article]
Used to happen to me a lot, for the reason you gave. I figured out a workaround.
Whenever I sign in and there are lots of comments to read for several articles, I open each unread page in a new tab and then I log off.
That way, I can review at my leisure, and SA isn't timing anything.
It still happens, just much less. Thus, I suspect it happens for another reason, too.
Dividend Growth Investing: Myths 11-15 [View article]
Does your wife know that dividends are paying for the trip, and not you?
Dividend Growth Investing: Myths 11-15 [View article]
I assume you use a Windows computer. If so, read on.
If you don't know how to use your browser's settings to clear cache, or various Window's settings to boost performance, then it's easier to download a program that does it all for you. Frankly, I do know how to do all of this manually, but I use CCleaner instead because it's one stop shopping.
Download the free version of CCLeaner (formerly called Crap Cleaner). It's a great program. To use it, you need to close down your browsers and run it.
The link is here http://bit.ly/129bfWC
Until you learn more about how to use it, stay away from all tabs other than the one at the very top left. In other words, ignore the tabs for the registry, etc. and only clean the crap that doesn't require knowing anything (much).
Download it, open it, and before using it look at the left side. You will see various choices. Pick the one a the very top ... for the cleaner.
There are two tabs for the cleaner: Windows and Applications
Under Windows, select everything from the top down, and stop at the selection of "Chkdsk File Fragments."
Under Applications, I selected pretty much everything.
It's very easy to use, and there's almost nothing you can do to screw up your computer.
There is documentation on line for it.
Dividend Growth Investing: Myths 11-15 [View article]
Try clearing cache more often and, if necessary, rebooting. It works for me. It also helps a lot if I close the browser and then open a different browser for a new session, even if I don't clear cache in the first browser used.
Dividend Growth Investing: Myths 11-15 [View article]
We are in violent agreement. I use an accountant, so the K-1s wouldn't be a deterrent. I did read a lot about MLP taxation issues and also had a brief chat with my accountant. The short of it is that there are far too many ill-defined risks beyond one's control for my tastes. The lure of high yield and potential profits are better suited for those willing and able to monitor such investments on a frequent basis, and have the stomach for it.
Yes. there's too much other low hanging fruit to be pulled to spend my time squeezing the harder berries. Simply said, and well put.
Dividend Growth Investing: Myths 11-15 [View article]
Thanks for the heads-up. I was wrong to use the word guru, because I just don't know how consistently valid his advice and expertise are. I once did debate issues with him pertaining to LNCO, about which we agreed to disagree. I am also aware of debates Ken has had with others about tax issues. I like his articles and comments because he argues well, even if I'm not able to sort fact from fiction.
However, the concepts (not necessarily his choice of words) in his article seem to be true, such as: “much of the MLP gains will ultimately be exposed to ordinary income tax instead of capital gains tax. The spread in these two rates means the MLP needs to outperform or be held for time frames in excess of 10-20 years. The bigger the spread, the greater the out-performance or holding period needs to be.”
One big difference between what he wrote and what I would write is that I would not have written time frames such as “or be held for time frames in excess of 10-20 years” or that a longer holding period could remedy a problem.
MLPs are too difficult for me to tackle, especially when one considers that, when an underperforming MLP is sold, the tax hit may be greater than the proceeds from the sale. Time held may not ever remedy many situations.
Dividend Growth Investing: Myths 11-15 [View article]
Well, maybe I need to spell it out precisely.
Your anecdotal evidence is useless. But, I am referring to you, not the other "anonymous poster” about whom you wrote. Why? It was you who posted anecdotal evidence about something you read by another anonymous person who posted anecdotal evidence about a doing a comparison. The study details and data were not provided. Just one anecdote after another about the results of ONE person.
That was my point.
“The point is that DGI folks--who, please don't misunderstand, who I respect and admire for any number of reasons--disdain index-investing”
You come off as a wife-beater who tells his wife he loves her while smashing her into a wall. Reread your comments, and look for statements such as this one “there runs through all of these endless, self-congratulatory DGI threads a sense of evangelical righteousness where everyone else is wrong or somehow inadequate to the task of real-man-investing.”
Are you serious? “Real-man-investing”? Is this about c*ck-size?
I have no wish to do battle with you. If you understand what you have read on these many posts about dividend investing, and conclude that you prefer MTP, and to purchase funds and ETF’s, not one person would argue that you should anything but that. Yet, you continue to battle to convert those who prefer a different approach to investing. It is you who are battling. Others have chosen a different approach. There is no right or wrong, especially when the goals and objectives are different – which seems to be what you don’t understand.
As I wrote above:
“I do agree that MPT plays an important role in helping people manage their money. Of course MPT can work. No one ever said it couldn't.
And, since you claim it's right for you, then it is.
I think you missed important points, one being that dividend investors do not place as high a priority on total return as increasing income, another being that beating an index is irrelevant.”
++++++++++++++++++++++...
Chowder should respond for himself. By his words” “If I can't monitor 40 high quality companies, and invest in an Index Fund or ETF's instead, I might now own 500, 1000 or 5000 different companies. If I can't monitor 40, how in the world do I monitor 5000?” I seriously doubt he meant that the reason he won’t buy an ETF is because he’d then have to forecast its likely ongoing performance by continuously monitoring thousands of individual stocks.
He wouldn’t. The man’s not a jerk. Rather, I think he meant he didn’t want to own the losers and that he prefers to build his own ETF-like portfolio that meets his own very specific criteria because no comparable ETF exists.
If I’m reading Chowder correctly, then what could be wrong with that?
You don’t like it. He does. Let it go.
Dividend Growth Investing: Myths 11-15 [View article]
"I respect your knowledge and your contributions here, but that's just a silly comment."
How relevant is the anecdotal performance of one anonymous poster to any argument? I can find anecdotal evidence to support or refute just about anything.
Why do you and this one anonymous poster think it's relevant to compare total return of an index to the performance of dividend investing for those interested in income and not total return?
I do agree that MPT plays an important role in helping people manage their money. Of course MPT can work. No one ever said it couldn't.
And, since you claim it's right for you, then it is.
I think you missed important points, one being that dividend investors do not place as high a priority on total return as increasing income, another being that beating an index is irrelevant.
Dividend Growth Investing: Myths 11-15 [View article]
Thanks for mentioning that some MLPs are actually C-Corps, despite their name. I never thought about it before.
I avoid the MLP structure because I don't want to invest in anything I can't get out of without complications. The tax preparation wouldn't bother me because, like DVK, Crosetti, and so many others trying to hold onto whatever sanity is left, I also use an account.
A full list of reasons are given in Reel Ken's recent article in which he (as a guru of the MLP space) explains why he is getting out of positions.
In a nutshell, if for any reason someone wants to sell, "much of the MLP gains will ultimately be exposed to ordinary income tax instead of capital gains tax. The spread in these two rates means the MLP needs to outperform or be held for time frames in excess of 10-20 years. The bigger the spread, the greater the out-performance or holding period needs to be."
Of course, one can escape the tax hit by dying before the sale : - )
Reel Ken's article explains all the issues very well. http://bit.ly/16mwh6L