Douglas Korthof

Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium

Well, it's true that recyclable batteries are the future; the problem with Lithium is the high cost, and the lack of scrap value. Lithium is a one-way resource, from brine deposits for new Li to the dump for discarded batteries. So the only real possibilities are lead and NiMH batteries, of course, because they recycle. Using old batteries to make new ones, no new mining is needed for this operation.

But Natural Gas vehicles do work and make sense; there is no problem with making CNG charging stations, they already exist. What I stress is that if you are a "believer" in fuel cells, ask youself, why not CNG? It's here, now, it operates at lower pressure than H2, doesn't require an expensive fuel cell stack, and any car or truck can be converted to CNG. Ironically, natural gas is used to refine gasoline as well as extract high-density oil from tar sands; the natural gas used to refine gasoline would carry a CNG car about as far as the gasoline produced would take an oil-fired car. But the money is in oil, so both EVs and CNG are not pursued. Suprise??


On Nov 29 09:17 AM nrgrat wrote:

> I guess I'm not clear on whether this is an article about what makes
> sense or what is reality. Natural gas makes a whole lot of sense
> for transport, and never more than right now with these huge reserves
> being tapped from Gorgon off of Australia to Forgotonia, Pa. But
> the reality is that the auto majors tried this a decade ago. They
> got killed. They're not going back. Nobody is going to build a U.S.
> network of CNG stations for Toyota. I agree with everything you're
> saying, except the 'only significant drawback' part about the lack
> of stations. You are discounting some pretty recent pain. Nobody
> is going to invest that kind of money in technology that everyone
> describes as a bridge to battery technology. Sorry, it's battery
> or bust. Everything else is smoke and mirrors.

8 Energy Storage Stocks that Can Expect Explosive Growth

California, among others, requires that Time of Use (TOU) tariffs be made available to any customer who requests it; in addition, the Solar Rights law requires that TOU be made available to residential solar customers. Thus, solar, which produces in peak, earns more credits via TOU which can be used for off-peak charging of a plug-in Electric car. This "PV-EV" combination helps the grid both ways: lowering daytime peak demand via solar, and raising the night-time off-peak usage, helping equalize loads and lower costs.


On Aug 16 12:55 PM Bindlepete wrote:

> The real change for lower cost electricity, via load leveling, wil
> arrive when the Regulatory agencies from FERC on down to the State
> levels demand that the consumer/homeowner be given an option for
> realistic time of day metering.
>
> Back in the 70's such a system was proposed but so adamantly opposed
> by the generating industry that they killed a bill mandating a parallel
> privilge to those available to industry for the residential user
> . The Senate refused to go to conference with the House Bill unless
> the section was removed.
>
> Gib=ve the residential consumer such an option of low cost electricity
> and they will run their dryers and washing machines with an off peak
> timer. Refrigerators could be so designed to effect real savings
> as can hot water systems. Europe does this with ease and no complaints.
> Why not we? Greed not public service.

Battery Wars

GM could make an Electric car right now, and could have made one at any time in the last 30 years.

Sure, GM colluded with Standard Oil of California (Chevron) to suppress Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries; but if GM were FORCED to produce a plug-in car, it would find a way to do so.

GM and the ghost of Chrysler will submit a "survival plan" to the gummint which is supposed to convince somebody.

But GM, and the gummint, is going about it ALL WRONG.

They are not only doomed to failure, they will miss a great opportunity.

Cost-cutting by closing plants and firing line workers has the BAD effect of destroying our manufacturing base. Instead of continuing the process of dismantling itself, GM should be doing a GENUINE restucturing and reorganization, to RETAIN and EXPAND that base, which contains the best workers in the world (contrary to GM's attempt to slander and blame their own workers).

What would that be like?

Well, GM has
too many of the WRONG dealers,
too many of the WRONG white-collar workers,
too many of the WRONG engineers, and
too little accountability.

Because GM has no effective oversight it is running wild (the Board of Directors is dominated by Wagoner, don't care if the stock goes to zero).

GM, and the gummint, must recognize the main problem:

GM IS MAKING THE WRONG CARS.

The solution is obvious, once you recognize the problem: remove the management that committed to making the wrong cars, remove the
engineers who can't build better cars, and start from scratch with new management which has a real interest in making cars that people
can't wait to buy.

Instead of FIRING, GM should be HIRING!!

GM should be retooling for world-class cars, cars that get more than 50 mpg, that are well-engineered, and that last longer than 10 years, cars that have features such as electric motor drivetrain, climate-controlled cabin, a goal of no emissions, and real efforts to PRODUCE such cars.

Instead of what GM's whining, simpering and pouting about all the things that it CAN'T do, it should start doing some of the things that need to be done! Get rid of failures and disgraces like Wagoner, Lutz and the rest of the overpaid, failed execs and bonehead, arrogant managers.

Don't fall into the trap of letting GM continue its "Wagoner-Lutz road to failure".

Require that GM STOP making gas-guzzlers.

STOP paying for for production of the WRONG CARS.

GM must be FORCED to make cars that are in the public interest; they would find out, if they did, that they could make money doing so.

Auto makers should not receive our money unless they make cars that are in the public interest. GM has produced a plug-in car in the
past, but now is stalling and refusing to make plug-in EVs.

Toyota's RAV4-EV is still on the road, last sold in Nov., 2002, and running fine on the same set of batteries for the last 7 years.

GM, and the rest of the Auto Alliance, must be required to make and SELL a plug-in car if they want to do business in America.

America Must Rebuild Domestic Battery Manufacturing Infrastructure

Your numbers are <b>WAY</b> off. Battery packs for EVs are measured in kWh, and their cost in dollars per kWh.
You need 25 kWh to go 100 miles (150 in aerodynamic EVs), they must be deep cycling, and have a long cycle life.
Battery prices have been coming down; in 2000, at their high point, CARB estimated that the cost of a battery pack for an EV would be no more than $13,000 in limited production, and no more than $7000 in mass production. That translates to $300 to $600 per kWh of capacity.

Your figure of $25K to $50K comes from the enemies of EVs, like GM, who lie and make up false numbers. Even Toyota lies about this, because they don't want to allow ANY EVs, people grow to love them, and Toyota wouldn't be able to sell oil-fired cars. As for GM, it's just accustomed to lying and arresting its own customers, now, their shareholders are paying the price.

In fact, Lithium batteries in mass production are currently less than $300/kWh, and, except for the fact that Chevron is squatting on the battery patents for NiMH, NiMH would be even less, and it's the cheapest in terms of life-cycle cost. Lead acid, the next cheapest battery technology in terms of life-cycle cost, is about $50/kWh.

So why rely on the liars and crooks for your numbers?? They are proven failures, if you look at GM, imagine, a vast American company run into the ground by white-collar failures who blame the line workers for their failure to sell product to their customers. Well, GM drove us to Toyota, by seizing our cars instead of taking our money. Why listen to liars??

"...battery prices will be a critical market driver in the case of an HEV that needs a $5,000 to $10,000 battery pack or an electric car that needs a $25,000 to $50,000 battery pack..."