Thadeus III

GM Bankruptcy: An Inflection Point for Underfunded Pension Plans?

Oh, BTW. These said companies should get business loans from banks just like any other business, instead of borrowing money in the form of bonds or stocks which created this mess we are in.

GM Bankruptcy: An Inflection Point for Underfunded Pension Plans?

I suppose it isn't possible that you are buying into a financial philosophy that has some major practical flaws, not to mention oral ones. But never mind. When your balloon bursts you'll soon realize it. If companies simply turned over the "dividends" to the workers who helped produce the excess profits instead of giving them to "do nothings" like you then these said companies would have no trouble funding the promised pension plans. But since you've been an admitted loser all your life paying child support , dropping out of accounting school, and agreeing to $9/hr you have no conscience ripping off the people who actually work making the money you skim. That's the whole problem with the Wall St. mentality pal. It has gotten way out of hand. We would all be far better off without stocks, bonds, and other financial instruments subject to corruption. But you apparently like to look the other way and admit that. No thanks. You talk out of both sides of your mouth.

GM Bankruptcy: An Inflection Point for Underfunded Pension Plans?

Yes I expect a pension. If the company I started working for offered that as PART of the total compensation package for my job , you bet we do. What the H3ll, you don't realize that most companies did have DB pensions since WWII and then due to stock holder greed, CEO and management obscene wages/bonuses, and other dubious "skimming " practices both workers and their companies got fleeced. And just quit with the deriding "mommy & daddy" crap. What makes you think investors should reap obscene gains from just pushing paper around and profiting from employees hard work? If more companies were fair, there would still be DB compensation packages. But investors want their almighty "irrational exuberance" for gains on stocks and bonds. Go fly a kite with your perception of the way compensation for employees should be made. You will never have a chance for a pension or benefits if you don't realize where the profits are really going.

UAW: It Should Be Giving Up More

Finding a decent job is a nice thought, but easier said then done. Also, for those of us who put 30 or more hard working years into working at an auto company; it's not very comforting to think that the pensions that are part of our compensation package may be ripped away from us by the excessive lawyers fees and liquidation of a full bankruptcy. To me, I accepted employment at a company with the full compensation that was offered at the time I started and when I retired. To take that away after the fact, is stealing , even if it is deemed legal.
And to set matters straight, I was in the military for 4 years during Vietnam (1969 through 1973). Before that, I put myself through a technical college earning an Associate degree in industrial electronics.
After the military I worked for two computer service companies working on everything from small business systems to industrial numerical controls, automated inspection systems, industrial X-ray systems operating at 145,000 KVA, and more. It took me into companies in the medical field such as GE X-ray and CAT scan, Evinrude Motors, several small medical equipment manufacturers, and Delco Electronics where I made my General Motors connection. The pay scale was already dwindling in the field service business and I had a family and young kids. So am I too be blamed for taking a better paying job with heath insurance and a retirement package? I am not and have never been a "lazy auto worker" as most of the people I've worked with have neither been. Every line of work has it's fair share of "skaters" looking to do as little as possible. I resent those who want to label any line of workers as lazy and doing poor quality work. At General Motors quality was pushed and pushed every day. "Quality Creates Customer Enthusiasm" was pounded into us daily and we lived up to as best we could with the design, engineering and tools were were given to work with. If you screwed up on the job, you were taken off the line and made to look at what needed to be done to rectify the issue. . . repeatedly, until it was corrected. If you screwed up more than once you were given written reprimand and after 3 times you could be given 2 -3 days off with no pay. It happened and I saw it happen regularly at the plants I worked at.
There were even employees I saw thrown out for a week or month for "loitering" or not performing their job. It was occasional , but it was authorized by both the UAW and company. So they were an example to show others what would happen if you screwed up. There was never any free lunch where I worked at several GM plants.
And just so you don't go thinking I got everything on a silver platter; in order for me to hang onto my income and retirement package I had to move 3 times while working for GM. One of the moves cost me a reduction in wages for 3 years because of going from skilled trade to line work and because of the transfer agreement for plant transfers at that time. That was a 38% pay cut and I had a family and my wife had to quit her job because of the move and find another paying much less. There is much more , but the point is my situation was NOT unique.

As GM downsized and worked at plant and employee reductions while improving both quality and efficiency; this was the result for many people as downsizing and automation, as well as trying to adjust to the unfair competition of transplant and foreign auto makers.took place.
As I said before, GM, Ford, and Chrysler made their mistakes in product choice at times and marketing. So did Toyota, Honda, and the others. They all got on the big SUV and truck wagon too and look where those sales are for them as well as the Big 3. It was the greed of oil producers first ( high prices) and then the unscrupulous and undisciplined financial gurus that drew the last straw for US brand auto companies.

So if I am defensive of what people say about GM, Ford or any US brand automaker you need to walk a bit in the shoes of those like me as I have illustrated in this post. Give people some respect or you'll get the same crap that you dish out to them. We need to get behind each other in America. Not deride, mock, or bash those that work or have worked in the auto business. This is a disgrace to us as Americans and makes us a laughing stock in the countries that are pushing this global economy upon us.

UAW: It Should Be Giving Up More

On May 12 Kman wrote:
"Do you think that American workers are actually having bad experiences with their VW's, Toyotas, Audis, Honda's and such, but that they keep buying those brands and shun GM out of some conspiricy or for some other reason? If so then what is it?"

No Kman, there is no "conspiricy" (sp). These brands you mentioned, particularly VW and Audi are not the best examples ( check J. D Power ratings) and sell no where near the volume of vehicles of GM, Ford, or Chrysler. In addition, you will find the VW and Audi have some of the worst J.D. Power quality and durability ratings. These kinds of cars, along with Toyota and Honda, have no better continued quality rating than comparable GM cars and trucks. The foreign brands gained sales initially because of hype from car magazines and journalists from Auto Week, Car & Driver, Motor Week, and even Motor Trend. This in spite of Honda Accords fenders rusting off in the early 80's and Toyota mechanical problems. So it became "trendy" to buy a foreign car and many other preppy types gained a following. It became "anti establishment" to buy a Honda or Toyota. They we cheap, unsafe, and rusted. And yes, so did many other American brands have similar issues. The point as I keep stressing" NO real difference in real quality, mileage, or performance." All illusion, hype, and advertising. If the Big 3 did have failings it was in advertising and how they promoted their products, along with not watching what the foreign guys were successful in doing. That, coupled with lack of government tariffs and other favorable import/export trade conditions allowed the lies of Toyota and Honda to gain market share. I've owned and driven these cars. Read my earlier post. Have you owned 30 the 40 vehicles of many different brands as I have reported? I read you owned maybe Ford or know of a few people with GM cars or trucks. You guys seem to skim over what other people write and just talk off the tops of your heads or worse, out the other end. did you actually READ the link I sent from the Wall street journal?

online.wsj.com/mdc/pub...

It shows for even the first 4 months of this year GM still outselling Toyota in US sales and Ford not far behind. But the likes of you and these "Seeking Alpha" bloggers choose to ignore that and hype up the transplant and import brands which are destroying the US industrial base and bringing wages down to the much lower global standards. But maybe that's what you want. Your kids and others having to scrape by and have 20 people living in a 900 sq. ft. wreck of a house in a bad neighborhood.

UAW: It Should Be Giving Up More

Here are some more facts:


Zacks.com
Time to Hit the Car Lots
Thursday January 8, 10:16 am ET
By Paul Raman, CFA

We think it is an excellent time to hit the car lots. Sales are slow, inventories are high, raw materials (steel, chemicals, plastic, rubber) are depressed, and interest rates are near zero. Demand is off due to the credit crunch. Dealers and manufacturers are hurting and are hungry for business.

Despite the bad publicity recently, Chevrolet and Chrysler have some of the BEST products in the market. The non-Chevy part of General Motors (NYSE: GM - News) must be restructured. Also, Honda (NYSE: HMC - News) has emerged to be a Big-4 player in the US. They work and act more domestic than even Chrysler.

We were DISAPPOINTED with Ford , TOYOTA and NISSAN and feel they have tired OLD product lineups. A strengthening Japanese Yen may force Toyota and Nissan to become the Big-5 and Big-6 in the US. * *Toyota's* QUALITY ratings were the LOWEST among all models studied, especially for the pickup/SUV part of the product line.

UAW: It Should Be Giving Up More

Kman. .. GM has continued to sell more vehicles even in this bad economy in the US than Toyota.
online.wsj.com/mdc/pub...
Sorry. If you like Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, etc so much, go live in the country of their respective origins. Get behind American and their original brands. . . ALL of them. Other countries are laughing at us with all this internal criticism of American Brands. It is a disgrace.

UAW: It Should Be Giving Up More

Oh and I remember my 1990 Nissan truck that left me stranded along the road side. It turns out in those years the throttle body was prone to carbon build up in the main jet. I had to get a tow and take the thing apart to clean out the carbon from exhaust the geniuses fed back into the throttle body for emmisions control ( via the PCV valve). And then there's the 1988 Sentra that had so many coolant leaks the head gasket went. Another Nissan my daughter had blew out the oil seals, another very common thing for Nissans. And the Subaru I had? Well, a rear brake job was $800. Unless you bought your own parts, then it was about $400 in 1992. And let's not forget the fabulouso early 2000's Toyota 3.0L V6 with engine failures ( Camrys and Sienna mini vans that we had ) because of too small oil returns in the cylinder heads. Toyota engineers did that. And Toyota tried to talk their way out and initially denied any responsibility. And then there was rear brake problems ( squealing and premature wear). There is more. I could go on.

Madison Ave hype and "trendy" attitudes? Yes. . . I do believe so.

UAW: It Should Be Giving Up More

I've owned over 40 vehicles in my driving career. GM, Chrysler, (Dodge Plymouth), 4 Toyotas, 4 Nissans, a Subaru, couple Pontiacs, and more Chevrolets than anything. My brother has driven and is driving Chevy minivans ( the plastic bodied Luminas) in excess of 300,000 miles with only oil changes, a water pump and alternator and tires. I had several Chevy pickups and 2 Impalas that were still going strong when I sold them each over 150,000 miles. I could go on.
The point is, I have not seen the advantage in durability or quality in a foreign brand. It's is largely Madison Ave. advertising hype with some "trendy" attitude and perception.
The thing I have noticed is that parts and repairs to foreign brand cars is usually higher. In other words, try collecting on you Hyundai 10 year warranty when the dealer can't get parts. What are you gonna drive when you have to wait for 3 to 6 months for a part?

Ford: Will Mulally Be Able to Continue His Masterful Job?

Tomas04 . . . I agree. It DOES seem like more negative rhetoric againt GM and Chrysler. Ford is just living on borrowed time. GM has cut more jobs than Ford over the last 10 - 15 years and has gained more quality recognition from J.D. Power and others. But lets grand stand F . This economy is sick folks. With wages eroding because of businesses pushing for a global wage structure American buying power is on the serious decline. I don't see Ford escaping these weak economic conditions. America could use some more support for ALL it's original American Brands!

Ford: Will Mulally Be Able to Continue His Masterful Job?

More negative rhetoric. Sorry I even read the drivel anymore.

What's an American Car These Days?

Mr. Perry likes to filter information like many do today so suit their POV or assuage their conscience because of buying a foreign car or product. All one needs to do is to look at what other countries are and have been doing for their businesses, people, and banks, not just now, but for YEARS. . In Japan, China, and especially Germany and other European countries the governments have been subsidizing their car makers for years. Since last Fall, Germany has been giving it's citizens a cash incentive to buy GERMAN made cars such as the now popular Opel Agila. When a $5K incentive is suggested here in the US all people can do is complain about how it's helping those lazy *#@$! auto workers and their companies. Other countries have always been protectionist. Ever since WWII the U.S.A. has been too much the worlds care taker. People here need to get past petty jealousies and prejudice when it comes to the well being of us all. There will never be a time when all of us get the same pay or benefits. Contrary to what many people think or say, a union doesn't "dictate" how a business is run or what engineering or production design choices are made. A union does help workers attain safer work standards, benefits, and compensation based on how well the company is doing, while trying to establish a decent standard of living or well being for workers and their families. Is spite of what others may say, this has helped establish a fairer standard of living for others not working in a unionized company or occupation. No more. Now GM, Ford, etc, want to provide $14-1$16/hr and also have a person fund his/her own 401K and a good deal of their medical insurance. Not even Suze Orman would see how that is possible. In the case of the UAW, losses in benefits and pay have occurred especialIy since 1982. But many are too petty, jealous, or ignorant to research that. Well, I guess we all need to move 10- 20 people into a single household and start living like third world countries.

In addition, I've always told my kids to make the best of what you have, live within your means, but keep your eye open for opportunity to better yourself by making efforts to do so. Not everyone has the same talents or academic abilities, another reason for a union to help provide a worker some measure of dignity no matter what his job position. . If you keep looking at the other guy, making comparisons, and being competitive for money, you will either be unhappy or an arrogant blowhard that no one wants to be around (except others like you).
This country needs to take care of it's own as other countries have for years. Instead of criticizing and and forming narrow minded opinions, we need to see how the rest of the world is handling this financial crisis. And Kman, I applaud you for your moving into the electrical field. Ir does require a lot of sacrifice to travel and move around a lot. I have a friend that did electrical contract work as you are. But he decoded to eventually work for a local contractor for less pay and a weekly paycheck to be with his kids and family. We need to be mindful of other people's circumstances and respect their decisions.

$5k Vouchers for Car Purchases: Utter Nonsense

As many people have said, these are complex issues and the government is looking at innovative ways to stimulate the economy. The 5K voucher sin't that much different than giving consumers a tax credit for buying a hybrid for environmental reasons. A lot of people applauded that. This is for economic reasons.
On the home buying front, a local PVC pipe manufacturer just went out of business here and also another commercial building supplier. The "trickle down" effect is now happening. I don't want to think it, but I see a lot more unemployment, businesses folding, and people on the street before this gets better. I don't see it getting better till possible mid 2010, and that is iffy.

What Big Auto Wants from Obama

I'm wondering who and what is a "Detroiter"? I have never lived in Michigan, am not in a union, and have never understood how some people think that a union dictates fiscal and R&D policy in an auto company. If some of you commenters were around in the 1930's, '40s, and even '50s, you would know that the reason that unions got a foothold was because companies and CEOs were making larger and larger profits without being very considerate or fair to its workers. Safety on a job was nearly unheard of, let alone concern for an employee and his family's well being. The current problem for the automakers was because of the investment banking "gurus" who had years of stuffing their pockets from profits through irresponsible financial practices. Large industrial businesses such at the Big 3 depend on a line of credit for raw materials, parts, maintaining dealer inventory, etc. Dry up that line of credit and the financial reserves the Big 3 had were being used up in months. Not to mention that now potential customers have an extremely difficult time getting financing.
Yes, the auto companies, consumers, and other businesses got caught up in the free wheeling way of credit to carry on day to day business and purchases. Again , it was the financial sector who was "creative" and provided no end of financial "products" to supply money and hide the risks of it in the retail, financial and real estate markets.
So, you want to blame individuals wanting a safe work environment and a decent standard of living for today's current financial problems? To put it another way. A lot of companies are now wanting to pay only $14 - $18/hr and have an employee both fund his/her own 401k pension plan plus make hefty co-pays for health care. Two people working in a family with this kind of compensation doesn't leave much for discretionary income, let alone purchasing a new car or home. I guess this is ok if you count yourself as one of the chosen few that think you deserve all you can get from opportunism and shrewdness, while saying everyone else deserves what they get for doing the bulk hard work in an economy. This amounts to nothing more than feudalism like in the middle ages and an arrogant aristocratic society calling the shots as long as they can remain on top at the expense of the many. There are very few companies and very few business owners who truly value the employees that make them the money. Some people have to do the work. Some actually choose manual labor, a skilled trade, or craft because it suits them or their families circumstances. So that makes them fair game for an opportunistic employer to exploit them in whatever way they can? Wow. If that's the case then society has come full circle in the last 500 years or so.

Four Myths from Detroit's Auto Show

Ok so let's rehash the past. Early Honda Accords (1979-1982 were rust buckets. They couldn't keep fenders on them. They also had a tendency to start using oil at relatively low mileage and then gas mileage would also suffer. Google it. Nissan (Datsun) engines have always had problems with oil seals failing. Even later model 1998 - 2005. I could go on. Both currently made Honda Accord ( harsh ride, poor seat comfort, poor mpg) and Toyota Camry ( slipping transmissions) are suffering from quality and performance issues.But how about this from last week:


Zacks.com
Time to Hit the Car Lots
Thursday January 8, 10:16 am ET
By Paul Raman, CFA

We think it is an excellent time to hit the car lots. Sales are slow, inventories are high, raw materials (steel, chemicals, plastic, rubber) are depressed, and interest rates are near zero. Demand is off due to the credit crunch. Dealers and manufacturers are hurting and are hungry for business.

Despite the bad publicity recently, Chevrolet and Chrysler have some of the BEST products in the market. The non-Chevy part of General Motors (NYSE: GM - News) must be restructured. Also, Honda (NYSE: HMC - News) has emerged to be a Big-4 player in the US. They work and act more domestic than even Chrysler.

We were DISAPPOINTED with Ford , TOYOTA and NISSAN , and feel they have TIRED OLD product lineups. A strengthening Japanese Yen may force Toyota and Nissan to become the Big-5 and Big-6 in the US. Toyota's QUALITY ratings were the LOWEST among all models studied, especially for the pickup/SUV part of the product line.