EPA can calculate the total CO2 emissions for your Model S in your area.
In Chicago 60661 it is 300g per mile and the US average CO2 emission for Model S is 250g per mile. (Zero from the tailpipe)
*Total emissions rate includes tailpipe emissions and the emissions associated with the production and distribution of fuel. Emissions associated with electric operation are estimated using recent electricity generation data regardless of the model year of the vehicle selected."
Electric Vehicles, Front-Loading The CO2 Emissions [View article]
There is another strange thing about CO2 and the Tesla Model S. According to the EPA the national average upstream CO2 emissions for the Model S is 250g CO2 per mile. http://1.usa.gov/OTm11s.
Now, let us take this number and divide it into the weight of CO2 you get from burning a gallon of gasoline. Burning a gallon of gasoline produces around 20 pounds of CO2 or 9000 grams. http://1.usa.gov/Rwm1kh so we get 9000/250 = 36. In other words when a Model S has driven 36 miles it has caused as much upstream CO2 “pollution” as you get from burning a gallon of gasoline. It is even worse if you charge it in Chicago 60601 here you get just 30 miles per gallon equivalent CO2.
Have a look an an http://1.usa.gov/OTm3q2 that has a total of 379g per mile CO2 “pollution.” and will do 34 miles per gallon (diesel)
Sorry about the research-links not being formatted.
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Thank you Nicu, I have read the mail to Mr. Hrivnak, but the EPA officially define MPGe like this:
"An electric vehicle that uses 33.7 kilowatt-hours to drive 100 miles will use the energy equivalent of one gallon of gasoline and, therefore, would have an MPGe of 100 miles per gallon of gasoline equivalent."
Well, that sure fooled me into believing they meant energy directly from the battery.
EPA shows 0.38KWh per mile of combined driving and you are saying that this consumption is not measured battery-to-wheel but socket-to-wheel and would be smaller if it were measured battery-to-wheel.
One can therefore not divide the consumption per mile into 90% of the battery/tank capacity to arrive at a "Miles on a Tank" even though this is how it is done with all the ICE cars on the EPA site.
It is a total mess, so I'm not going to waste more time on it.
The market will decide if Tesla goes bust or not, all depending on the reaction of the customers.
Good luck with the car, if you bought one, and spare me a thought when/if you run out of juice on some remote mountain or desert road.
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Nico:
MPGe is not measured as socket-to-wheel. It is battery-to-wheel. Here is what Wiki says:
“The EPA MPGe rating shown in the Monroney label is based on the consumption of the on-board energy content stored in the fuel tank or in the vehicle's battery, or any other energy source, and only represents the tank-to-wheel energy consumption.” http://bit.ly/M4piY7
My calculatioin: 90% of 85KWh divided by 0.38KWh per mile equals 201 miles, is therefore correct.
In the event the Model S battery only holds 83KWh of useable energy, as the EPA states, the “Miles on a Tank” falls to 197 miles.
If you were to calculate another type of MPGe that took the power-stations, grid transmission loss, distribution loss, charging loss and so on into account this type of MPGe would be much, much lower than 89. I refer you to this Tesla paper: http://bit.ly/NnB4vC that describes the problem in general, but is focused on the Roadster.
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Nicu:
Was "Yes, you are wrong. MPGe is computed using the amount of energy that goes out of the socket to make the car go one mile (or 100 or 1000)." an answer to my calculation that shows the Model S must have a "Miles on a Tank" of 201 or 197 miles ????
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Well, I still cannot find this official EPA range of 265 miles anywhere, and the "Miles on a Tank" is still empty. So I calculated it the way the EPA calculates all "Miles on a Tank".
The EPA rates the Model S at 89 MPGe meaning it consumes 33.7 KWh pr 89 miles combined driving. http://1.usa.gov/Mh4EAy
This means it consumes 33.7/89 KWh per mile, which is around 0.38 KWh per mile, also shown on the site.
Now with a 85 KWh battery, which according to the EPA must have 10% capacity left, the tesla “Miles on a Tank” is 0.9*85/0.38 = 201 miles. See here for the 10% rule: http://1.usa.gov/Mi9h2H
Furthermore, it seems the EPA has rated the battery at 83 KWh so we get 0.9*83/0.38 = 197 miles. The 83 KWh rating may be an honest error. See the tab "Specs" instead of "Fuel Economy"
Is The Tesla Model S Green? [View article]
In Chicago 60661 it is 300g per mile and the US average CO2 emission for Model S is 250g per mile. (Zero from the tailpipe)
*Total emissions rate includes tailpipe emissions and the emissions associated with the production and distribution of fuel. Emissions associated with electric operation are estimated using recent electricity generation data regardless of the model year of the vehicle selected."
Check it out.
http://1.usa.gov/12iWOza
Electric Vehicles, Front-Loading The CO2 Emissions [View article]
Now, let us take this number and divide it into the weight of CO2 you get from burning a gallon of gasoline. Burning a gallon of gasoline produces around 20 pounds of CO2 or 9000 grams. http://1.usa.gov/Rwm1kh so we get 9000/250 = 36. In other words when a Model S has driven 36 miles it has caused as much upstream CO2 “pollution” as you get from burning a gallon of gasoline. It is even worse if you charge it in Chicago 60601 here you get just 30 miles per gallon equivalent CO2.
Have a look an an http://1.usa.gov/OTm3q2 that has a total of 379g per mile CO2 “pollution.” and will do 34 miles per gallon (diesel)
Sorry about the research-links not being formatted.
Buy Tesla Motors: The Apple Of Automakers Has Only Just Begun To Realize Its Potential [View article]
Anyway, let us leave it here and see the final judgement of the market, and the people. Especially the people.
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Here is a photo of the giant Tesla-smile your president will give when Tesla goes Solyndra:
http://bit.ly/PT7Rgs
Sorry, it was an irresistible opportunity to use my time machine.
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"An electric vehicle that uses 33.7 kilowatt-hours to drive 100 miles will use the energy equivalent of one gallon of gasoline and, therefore, would have an MPGe of 100 miles per gallon of gasoline equivalent."
Well, that sure fooled me into believing they meant energy directly from the battery.
EPA shows 0.38KWh per mile of combined driving and you are saying that this consumption is not measured battery-to-wheel but socket-to-wheel and would be smaller if it were measured battery-to-wheel.
One can therefore not divide the consumption per mile into 90% of the battery/tank capacity to arrive at a "Miles on a Tank" even though this is how it is done with all the ICE cars on the EPA site.
It is a total mess, so I'm not going to waste more time on it.
The market will decide if Tesla goes bust or not, all depending on the reaction of the customers.
Good luck with the car, if you bought one, and spare me a thought when/if you run out of juice on some remote mountain or desert road.
Buy Tesla Motors: The Apple Of Automakers Has Only Just Begun To Realize Its Potential [View article]
MPGe is not measured as socket-to-wheel. It is battery-to-wheel. Here is what Wiki says:
“The EPA MPGe rating shown in the Monroney label is based on the consumption of the on-board energy content stored in the fuel tank or in the vehicle's battery, or any other energy source, and only represents the tank-to-wheel energy consumption.” http://bit.ly/M4piY7
My calculatioin: 90% of 85KWh divided by 0.38KWh per mile equals 201 miles, is therefore correct.
In the event the Model S battery only holds 83KWh of useable energy, as the EPA states, the “Miles on a Tank” falls to 197 miles.
If you were to calculate another type of MPGe that took the power-stations, grid transmission loss, distribution loss, charging loss and so on into account this type of MPGe would be much, much lower than 89. I refer you to this Tesla paper: http://bit.ly/NnB4vC that describes the problem in general, but is focused on the Roadster.
Buy Tesla Motors: The Apple Of Automakers Has Only Just Begun To Realize Its Potential [View article]
Was "Yes, you are wrong. MPGe is computed using the amount of energy that goes out of the socket to make the car go one mile (or 100 or 1000)." an answer to my calculation that shows the Model S must have a "Miles on a Tank" of 201 or 197 miles ????
Buy Tesla Motors: The Apple Of Automakers Has Only Just Begun To Realize Its Potential [View article]
The EPA rates the Model S at 89 MPGe meaning it consumes 33.7 KWh pr 89 miles combined driving. http://1.usa.gov/Mh4EAy
This means it consumes 33.7/89 KWh per mile, which is around 0.38 KWh per mile, also shown on the site.
Now with a 85 KWh battery, which according to the EPA must have 10% capacity left, the tesla “Miles on a Tank” is 0.9*85/0.38 = 201 miles. See here for the 10% rule: http://1.usa.gov/Mi9h2H
Furthermore, it seems the EPA has rated the battery at 83 KWh so we get 0.9*83/0.38 = 197 miles. The 83 KWh rating may be an honest error. See the tab "Specs" instead of "Fuel Economy"
Any comments?
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