Don Harmon

Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium

mbwa: But Thundersky Cells pale in comparison to A123 or LiFeBATT Cells especially in a Pack format. There is a s**t load more power in a LifeBatt Pack than in any Thundersky Pack of similar spec. They are worth exactly the price they charge for them. No OEM will touch Thundersky unless they are a small player who doesn't know the difference.

Rich has probably never tested the difference for himself, trust me on this.

On Dec 07 01:54 AM mbwa wrote:

> Eh, so I was a little sloppy and Ener1 does get cells from a Korean
> subsidy, but the company is USA owned. Point was they are not a Chinese
> company dumping cheap Lithium batteries on the American market.<br/>"I
> don't care what cell costs are. Extapolating them to pack-level costs
> is meaningless. Battery packs are an entirely differnt beast with
> their own sets of pricing and problems. "
> I disagree. Packaging and controlling the power from the cells does
> add cost but cells should set most of the cost. Take a look at ThunderSky
> lithium cells and tell me they are not good quality ...at $373/kWh.
> Friend of friend "Rich" knows what he's doing. He's been involved
> in EVs for a long time ...full time.

Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium

Here is a book reccomendation for all readers here including John:

abcnews.go.com/GMA/Boo...

It's available in paperback now too - so please read it!

Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium

Correction: should be nitroglycerin (one word) which was eventually replaced by the invention of dynamite in 1867.

Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium

I also agree! Most chemistries can be considered "safe" if enough extra systems are employed like special coolant measures and special battery management systems are employed - like the ones that Tesla used in their Roadster.

That being said, all these extra measures exact an economic toll on the overall battery system, which has to be taken into consideration. AFAIK, LiFePO4 needs nothing more than possibly a simple exaust fan (in extreme cases) which is a minor cost in building a working battery pack. Obviously a BMS is required in any Lithium-ion battery system.

The less you have to devise "extra safety systems" to overcome any battery's thermal problems - the more efficient the overall performance becomes. We know how to transport Nitro Glycerin safely, but who wants to try it on their own?

On Dec 02 07:50 PM MRTTF wrote:

> Don--
>
> I wholeheartedly agree. The point I was trying to make was the misinformation
> I see (there are a few notable culprits) touting completely safe
> Li-ion batteries.
>
> It is always the responsibility of the engineers in the white coats
> to come up with a design and chemistry that raises the safety level
> as high as possible.
>
> While LiFePO4 is the safest cathode chemistry and is nearly impossible
> to force into thermal runaway, with sound mechanical planning/engineering,
> and even some other chemistry-related "tricks," if you will, nearly
> any cell can be made "safe." In house, we have run a number of safety
> tests, including overcharge, nail, crush, etc without explosion/fire
> for many production-level cells that don't use LiFePO4.
>
> On Dec 02 10:20 AM Don Harmon wrote:

Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium

mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnew...

Speaks Volumes.

Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium

cleantechbrief.com/nod...

Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium

Sorry, Mbwa but I too find your figures a bit on the outlandish side as far as the true cost of QUALITY advanced Lithium - ion batteries. You cite Toshiba SCiB as your favorite example but do not quote pricing for them - why not? Our own LiFePO4 battery cells have been tested and we can claim basically the same results as the Toshiba's. We however have pricing - I have yet to see anything on pricing from Toshiba.

Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium

It is the responsibility of the manufacturer to design and produce a safe cell which includes venting mechanisms. The over charge/voltage abuse test indicated that the LiFePO4 cell can fail without fire, or damage to other external systems if
those systems can handle the 160 °C max temperature and electrolyte venting.


On Dec 01 10:05 AM MRTTF wrote:

> ALL Li-ion in flammable. It is just a matter of how flammable (volatility
> of the electrolyte) and at what temperature the cathode material
> goes into thermal runaway.

Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium

So who is sitting and waiting and WHY? You either HAVE the goods or you don't. I personally am tired of waiting for Axion or Eestor to produce anything that proves their technology is superior to LiFePO4!

Anyone else here feel like I do?

Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium

Douglas wrote: "Well, it's true that recyclable batteries are the future; the problem with Lithium is the high cost, and the lack of scrap value. Lithium is a one-way resource, from brine deposits for new Li to the dump for discarded batteries. So the only real possibilities are lead and NiMH batteries, of course, because they recycle. Using old batteries to make new ones, no new mining is needed for this operation."

Again, please do your homework. Here are a few items you may wish to look at:

green.autoblog.com/200.../

Both Lead and NiMH are far less on the Energy Density curve than Lithium and have been largely replaced by major OEM's looking for high power, longer lasting, and lighter weight alternatives.

The only category Lead or NiMH can compete in is Price, and NiMH is not much of a bargain in that category compared to advanced Lithium-ion batteries.

Lithium is NOT a "one way resource" despite your mindset.

Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium

Here's a well written article some of you might be interested in:

www.businessweek.com/t...

Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium

Hi John, I haven't even finished your article and have a comment already! The part where the reports say: "all three warn that the GEV industry will not bear fruit unless lithium-ion battery developers can deliver on their promises to make cheap, powerful, durable and safe products."

My response would be - no problem, you can have your wish tomorrow but you can only have 3 out of the 4 promises granted. Pick 3 and let us know ?

Rapid Transition to Grid Enabled Vehicles Not Possible or Desirable

Couldn't agree more with both John an MRTTF! Being entrenched a good degree in this industry, we see PR releases and new tech. briefs appear on a weekly basis. We know what LiFePO4 technology is capable of now and we have to focus on bringing this commercial product to the market NOW.

If you want to wait 5-10 years to bring a better technolgy to the market - then invest in these so-called "breakthroughs", but if you want to invest in what will actually be produced and is being marketed now, then go with the state of the art which is already being made in "off-the-shelf" battery packs.

The future is here and the market is developing to where demand will soon become way more than supply can deliver. Trust me, I can absolutely tell you this is true, without a doubt!

Oh, I might add the "fast charge" myth which has mainly been propagated by Altairnano is detrimental to the life cycle of any LiFePO4 battery pack. Nobody can tell you just how much yet - but it will reduce the life expectancy of the battery system.

Thanks for the others who have posted what the public should know of and what investors should consider here.

On Nov 25 03:17 PM John Petersen wrote:

> JLBR, I'm a big fan of hard core economics. I have no fundamental
> problem with Government subsidies to manufacturers to support the
> creation of critical infrastructure. It's an entirely different situation
> when public money is used to subsidize luxury consumption by individuals.
> New factories make the economy richer. Consumption subsidies are
> little more than pirates sharing the plunder with a select group
> of constituents.

Rapid Transition to Grid Enabled Vehicles Not Possible or Desirable

Hope so, and I agree totally with you that the U.S. has much untapped natural resources but the Govt. caps wells, won't release the strategic reserves, or is beholding to foreign investors who buy our huge debt we create in return for a quid pro quo purchase of Oil.

They (Saudi Arabia) funds our foreign wars, despite what Americans think, and America in turn provides our kids an opportunity to "Be The Best They Can Be". Sorry, I just can't buy it anymore!

If we can't see this, I am sure our kids are going figure it out for themselves, and their kids won't be so willing to fight for foreign governments no matter what the so called "benefits" may be?

Let's just get REAL about the whole mess, OK?


On Nov 22 03:53 PM Advill wrote:

> No, Don America has a lot of energy sources problem is not in the
> sources its in the mentality.
>
> How come that everybody in US is worry about price of oil having
> incredibly amounts of NG with no use, some of the biggest uranium
> mines, lithium mines, rare metals mines are in US, let say something
> about the huge amounts of carbon gas and methane.
>
> The herds (methane producers) in US are the biggest in the world,
> cellulosic fuels, solar and eolic sources are there, talent and capital
> is there.....the only point restricting this is the stubborn addiction
> to oil (specially gasoline), the psychological need of driving a
> truck for buying milk in Walmart....one day I will write a bit about
> my experience of moving around in McAllen Tx in bicycle.
>
> Don´t worry about your kids they will be fine.
>
> rgds

Rapid Transition to Grid Enabled Vehicles Not Possible or Desirable

I fail to see a shining light ahead for the future of U.S. Energy policy and there is no single Agency that stands above the fray and offers a simple philosophy that everyone can embrace. Sorry, DOE, you are no NASA.

Lacking that single big event or unifying message, I fear much knowledge and problem solving talent will be wasted or I should say squandered in the next few years. Right now it's a free for all tag team event with no enlightened guiding principles and nothing more than a guy standing in the ring shouting "let's get ready to ruuuuuuummmble!" Well, it certainly will make for some entertaining times ahead.

God help us and especially our kids.