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The Limits of Lithium-Ion Batteries, According to Ford

Tiny Tim,

A couple of points:

Don't think of just hearing aid batteries or what you think is a "battery". Several companies are working on Zinc-Air fuel cells on a much larger scale. I done a lot of research into Zinc-Air and the best fuel cells will exchange the zinc that is suspended in an electrolyte once it has oxidized with the air. The zinc oxide can then be converted back into pure zinc again. Very green, indeed!

These fuel cells exist right now and put out three times the energy as lithium ion. Plus they are totally inert and non-toxic. Google "lithium ion explosion" or check out the you-tube video of the Army shooting at various radio batteries. The Li-ion battery produces a jet of fire for over two minutes. Do you want to be cooked in car like that? I don't.

Right now. Li-ion is all the rage and therefore gets the money. When the public at large see's the first Chevy Volt burn a family to death or learn how toxic it is, they won't be as excited.

As for recharging them, why is that so important? I personally think plug-in cars are a waste of time. Our grid in So Cal can barely support our usage as it is. (Especially in summer with all the A/Cs running.) Can you imagine everyone trying to charge their cars overnight? Plus the electricity required would likely come from coal or oil, which is not very green.

In any case, I've written about this in another post and look forward to continuing the Zinc-Air discussion here:
seekingalpha.com/user/...


On Aug 28 04:40 PM TinyTim wrote:

> Lithium-air and zinc-air batteries
>
> Hell, hearing aid batteries are zinc-air. The trick is to get them
> to recharge.
>
> The more attention focused on this economic segment, the faster the
> technology will develop. Li-Ion certainly isn't the end of the line.
>
>
> "energy density - the amount of energy stored per kilogram – than
> the roughly 200 kilowatts per kilogram"
> Assuming this is an error and what is really meant is 200 kilowatt-hours
> per kilogram.
> Either that or the author means power density

ReVolt, BASF Sign Zinc-Air Battery Development Deal

You're still driving a Pinto? Or a Crown-Vic that tends to explode when rear-ended.? Lithium is a dead end, period. I don't care if you are the most vociferous tree-hugging/granola-e... buying acolyte of Al Gore, you are not going to strap you child into a car that will explode and burn in a car accident. Gas is certainly dangerous, but just google Lithium battery and explosion and see what you get. Imagine a car with a huge Li-ion battery.

After that, check out what happens when a Zinc-Air battery is crushed---nothing. Nada. Zip. It just stops producing energy and its totally inert.... Toyota is working on integrating Zinc-Air right now...

How Will Gold Perform in the Coming Equity Crash?

djk!,

If it was easy to time the market, we'd all be rich. I thought the housing market would start downward in 2005 and it continued up for another two years... I, too, think this is a sucker's rally. With all the money that is being printed, I don't think you can seriously think that gold/silver won't rise over the long haul. It may not be today, this month, or even this year, but gold and silver will break out when the average joe realizes that Bernake, Geithner, and Obama have no magic bullets left... When the average joe sees his meager savings eroded by inflation, he is going to run to PM. One of the major factors in keeping PM down is that the average joe does not know how bad things really are. Even American Idol devotees will eventually get it....

Howard Ruff Must Be Celebrating

I checked out Ruff's free e-letter recently and he admitted that his track record on picking short term individual stocks has been dismal. A least there is some honesty there. You won't get that from anyone on CNBC... I found his advice to be more about long term trends (Gold up due to pending inflation, Silver outperforming Gold, etc.) and it seems to be in line with a lot of the comments and concerns found here on Seeking Alpha.

Two Economic Theories You Shouldn't Listen To

Great comment Glen L., I wish I could give you more than just one thumbs up! One problem is that Americans have been dumbed down by American Idol,TMZ, etc. and, when the finally realize there is a major problem in front of them, they look to bankrupt policies put forth by morally bankrupt politicians.

Howard Ruff Must Be Celebrating

MHFT,

Ruff does not seem to be alone in some of his advice. Do you disagree with some of his predictions?

I Know What Keeps Obama Up at Night

That's the exact scenario that keeps me up at night and causes my wife's eyes to glaze over when I talk about what scares me...

7 Steps to Fix the Housing Crisis

Mr. Nielson,

The point I'm trying to make is that the government shouldn't be bailing out ANYONE. I challenge you to find where this is authorized by the Constitution. I just checked Article I, Section 8 which lays out what the Federal government is authorized to do and it ain't in there... We shouldn't bailout banks or homeowners.

Please, someone make a cogent argument and convince me why my hard earned money should go to someone who entered a legal contract and now doesn't like the fact that housing doesn't always go up. Please explain why I should be happy that my prudence and good sense is being punished.

Gregman2,

Believe me, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but "excessive profits?" How much profit is "excessive" to you. Who is going to determine what is, or is not, "excessive?" You? The government? If your portfolio doubles and you sell at a profit, would you like it if some bureaucrat said, "Sorry you can't have it all, your profits are just too "excessive."

If a loan is too complicated or you don't like the terms, save up the cash and buy a car or property outright. Don't you see that you are trying to save people from themselves? I will say it again: We can't insulate people from the consequences of their bad decisions! It's just frightening that people expect more government intervention to solve the problems that government intervention created.

7 Steps to Fix the Housing Crisis

As a new poster to Seeking Alpha, I always like to see the "Followers/Following" section for the article I am reading. In this case, I started reading the article first and was flabbergasted by the simple steps to "fix" this problem. I was double flabbergasted by the fact that this guy has 5 Followers.

A government sponsored entity? A national fund? How can you possible sugguest such a thing? Do you believe in the free market? Didn't we learn our lesson with Fannie and Freddie? Hello? Is this mic on? THE MARKET ISN'T THE PROBLEM, THE GOVERNMENT IS THE PROBLEM!!!! Forclosures and personal bankruptcy are the solution to reducing inventory and returning some sense of sanity to housing prices. A house is a place to live, not a hot commodity to trade or invest in.

I'm sorry, but if you made a bad decision, you absolutey have no "right" to be insulated from the consequences of that decision. You don't have a right to be made whole at my expense. You don't have a right to have the value of your house propped up by me or the government so that you can continue to use your home as an ATM.

How can anyone seriously sugguest that we need more government intervention, especially now. When did this train derail? Please tell me that someone else gets it. If Fannie or Freddie never existed, it's highly doubtful we would have ever seen this bubble. Look, government gets it wrong almost every time. How is it that anyone can look to more government to solve our problems? If you assumed the risk, you assumed all of it... suck it up and learn from it.

Lithium Unicorns and Alternative Energy Storage

As a Zinc-Air proponent who just recently started posting on Seeking Alpha, I wanted to address a couple of the issues raised in a previous comment. One, is that Zinc-Air Fuel Cells are not rechargeable and the other issue was a comment about energy density.

Yes, currently Zinc Air batteries are not rechargeable, but Power Air mentioned a rechargeable prototype in one of their reports...things may change soon if they can hold on. And, why is rechargeablity the holy grail when the power is going to be generated by carbon based energy anyway? While "plug in" cars sound great, do you think our energy transmission systems could possibly handle the load of charging everyones cars? I don't. If you live in CA, as I do, "brown-outs" during the summer are common when everyone is running their A/Cs. Imagine that every day. Or just imagine the cost to consumers (whether through high rates or taxes) to upgrade our electric grid....

I don't think exchanging the electrolyte is that big of a deal. You are already accustomed to filling your car with gas, right? In either case, there will have to be significant infastructure changes to whatever energy system prevails. It may come down to which is easier: beef up the power lines or switch over gas stations to hold the zinc electrolye?

While Li-ion works right now, Toyota is already looking past it for its hybrids. That simple fact says a lot about what the future for Li-ion is. If the #1 car company thinks Zinc-Air is where it's at, maybe we should defer to their scientists and engineers. They certainly know more than all of us combined.

As for energy density, Energizer has already developed and is marketing its Zinc Air Prismatic Battery. Per the literature available from ENR, the Zinc Air battery puts out THREE TIMES the energy as comparable alkaline or Li-ion batteries. If that's true then Zinc-Air wins...

From what I've read, Zinc is more plentiful than Lithium and it can be recycled. Sounds good to me....

Biofuels: No There, There. Government Should Focus on Other Alternatives

With regards to speculari's comment on the Scottish, I would add: "If it's not Scottish....It's CRAP!!!!!"

To add some fuel on the bio-fuel fire, here is a cut and paste from another post regarding a Lithium-based economy. If it's long-winded, I apologize:

I think a Lithium (or even hydrogen) based economy will be short-lived at best. Lithium is only found in a few countries and is very toxic, and hydrogen requires a fair amount of energy to create it and a lot of room to store it. If Obama is serious about moving past carbon based energy, he should look at and fast track Zinc-Air. Yes, you read correctly, Zinc and "Air." Zinc-Air Batteries have been around for a while and are most commonly found in hearing aid batteries. The batteries work by exposing zinc pellets suspended in an electrolyte to air which produces a current.

Recently, Energizer introduced its "Zinc Air Prismatic" Battery at the 2009 Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas. It is an improvement on existing technology and is able to produce up to THREE TIMES the energy of similar alkaline or lithium ion batteries. (You can Google their tech specs.) Energizer is working with OEMs to integrate this technology into cell phones, laptops, etc. Products will need to be developed around the Zinc-Air battery because the air needs to be managed or throttled. If the O2 isn't managed the battery will discharge continuously until it runs out.

What's great is Zinc-Air is a very "green" technology. Zinc is plentiful throughout the world and non-toxic. Better yet, it's inert/safe unlike lithium-ion or hydrogen. Just Google "lithium-ion explosion" and see what you get. I don't own a hybrid, and I sure wouldn't want to be in a Lithium-ion hybrid car when the batteries explode during an collision. As for hydrogen's safety, one name immediately comes to mind: "Hindenburg."

Lithium definitely has problems and I recently read Toyota will develop a Zinc-Air battery for their hybrids. In addition to safety, the Zinc used in Zinc Air batteries can be recycled. Sounds pretty "green" to me....

OK, how do I know this? Well, after performing some due diligence on the company listed below, I became a believer that Zinc-Air will probably be powering personal vehicles in the future. (On a side note, this technology already powered a commerical bus during an operational test in Las Vegas, and there is even a video of Sen. Harry Reid riding the Strip in one.)

The Zinc-Air technology was developed at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories in the 90s by John Cooper. Right now, a company in Livermore, CA has the exclusive world wide rights to use this technology: Power Air Corporation (PWAC). PWAC has been a developmental company and just started producing Zinc Air powerpacks for sale. They have also developed indoor generators that can be used indoors since there is no exhaust of any kind. PWAC unfortunately appears to be on life support right now and is trading between 5 and 8 cents. It has been argued on the Yahoo Message Board for PWAC, that PWAC and Energizer are partners in the development of the Zinc Air Prismatic battery. It is a persausive argument in that the chances of two companies developing the same type of battery with exactly the same specs at roughly the same time is pretty remote. I have some PWAC and hope that whatever licensing fees they may be due come fast.

If anyone is interested they should check out PWAC's website: poweraircorp.com. What really caught me was how this technology can be used in vehicles. When using this technology, you don't need to exchange (or recharge) the batteries, only the electrolyte that contains the Zinc pellets needs to be exchanged. This would mean sucking the old depleted electrolyte out (which is then recycled) and pumping fresh electrolyte into the vehicle. This could EASILY be accomplished by a service station-type provider.

To some, this pumping out/pumping in of electrolyte might seem complex or dangerous, but remember the electrolyte is inert and should be no more complex than pumping your own gas.

Interestingly, a company called AEDCSA (Alternative Energy Development Corporation South Africa) is trying to market Zinc Air Fuel Cells (ZAFC) that look very similar to some of the older prototypes developed by PWAC. These ZAFCs will be used to power off grid homes and eliminate the dangers of candles or kerosene lamps. Additionally, some of the graphics (the cloud background for one example) are the same or similar as those found on PWAC's website. A lot of the wording on the two sites are similar as well. (aedsca.com) Maybe this is a bottom-up campaign...

In any case, I think the obvious limitiations of Lithium (like the fact that you have to charge it with electricity produced by conventional means like coal or fuel oil and it explodes) will eliminate it from consideration. I'm interested in anyone's thoughts on Lithium or Zinc Air technology...

California: More than Just Economic Problems (Plus Some Potential Solutions)

Ditto on voting "NO" on the upcoming propositions. If you actually read them you will realize that they are tax increases in disguise or robbing one idiotic program to pay for another.

Every year it's the same, tired scare tactics of: "If we don't raise taxes, we will have to lay off firefighters, police officers, close libraries, etc... Hopefully, the electorate will see through it this time. If we don't stop this soon our flag will have to be changed from "California Republic" to "Peoples Republic." Maybe I shouldn't have sugguested that, I already hear Socialists and Pols in Sac Town, SF, Berzerkly and Santa Monica licking their chops over the idea....

California: More than Just Economic Problems (Plus Some Potential Solutions)

Great successes of the LA Metro and San Diego Trolley? Are you on dope? By what standard are you judging success? Merely, because of its existence? It is obvious to me that you either haven't lived in either City or haven't ridden either system. Have you ridden through Barrio Logan at 1am? How about LA's Blue line through South Central? Or even the Red Line that funnels South Centrals finest criminals straight to the Hollywood and Highland complex where they sling dope and have easy access to a bevy of potential robbery victims. Maybe there is poetic justice here in that both the criminals and their liberal "social justice" victims support Obama...

In fact, the Red Line has been so successful at giving criminals their much needed access to more victims, that the City of Beverly Hills is fighting AGAINST a station there when the line is expanded.

Think I don't know what I'm talking about? Well, I'm the guy that puts the criminals in jail and comes running when you call 911...

This state is broken from the top down. If I could leave right now without having to start completely over, I would.

GM's Real Problem

Do you think they are listening now? It goes way beyond the death of our veterans. Every year, I attend Memorial Day (in uniform) at the National Cemetery over in West LA. As you might guess, there are a lot of WWII Vets who attend. And, as you might correctly expect, a lot of them are driving US cars. However, I see quite a few Lexus and Infiniti's parked along the narrow roads of the cemetery. They were probably driving Cadillacs a few years back and just gave up when they realized they were speding their kids inheritance on replacement transmissions, etc. The power of product quality always wins in the end... God bless our veterans, this and every Memorial Day...

Home Sales Figures Aren't Point to a Bottom

Well, the housing perma-bulls at the NAR said the downturn would never happen either. Does anyone remember the "soft landing" thesis they promoted back in '05 and '06? They've been bottom-calling for the past three years. Paid NAR shill, David Lereah even called a bottom in January 2007. LIke a broken clock, they will eventually be right if they continue calling a bottom every few months. (Then, they will have been "right once in a row.")

In my area of the San Gabriel Valley, I've been watching the real estate market from the sidelines for the last eight years. After leaving active military duty in 2001, I thought about buying a house, but decided to wait in order to save more money for a down payment. As my savings rose, so did the prices. In 2004, I found myself in Iraq after being recalled to active duty from the reserves. I had a good internet connection when I wasn't under mortar or rocket attack and could plainly see an out of control bubble forming. I had absolutely no idea that it could go on for as long as it did.

Now, after making the prudent decision not to buy at inflated prices, I'm being punished by the Bush/Obama administrations who want to insulate the poor decision makers from the consequences of their bad decisions. Nice! What is America becoming???

I wish it was common knowledge that Realtors are not your friend. The vast majority want you to pay as much as possible for the house. How else are they going to afford a new Lexus every two years? I'd like to say that Realtors are on par with used car salesmen, but I don't want to insult used car salesmen.