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  • Axion Power Concentrator 208: Feb. 13: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern [View instapost]
    I've often thought the people At the Tesla Motor Club were more sane then the rabid deniers that attack all who point out any EV flaws.

    Any way I ran across this thread
    Thread: NYT article: Stalled on the EV Highway
    50 pages with many Model S owners.
    http://bit.ly/X6GhxR

    More of them admit there is a problem that they wish Tesla would address than those that try to flame Broder the writer.

    Also many are ticked that they had to find out about the loss of range in the cold much as Broder did, The hard way. Only they paid $100,000 for the privilege.

    first comment
    "I thought it was a very fair article and his experience matches many who've seen their range drop ridiculously fast while parked overnight in freezing weather. Tesla needs to be more forthcoming in their cold climate information as well as installing more superchargers in the northern climes."
    Feb 14 04:29 AM | 11 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Axion Power Concentrator 208: Feb. 13: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern [View instapost]
    Tesla has put out part of the log.

    http://bit.ly/12NvCfg
    I'm going to sleep but here are a couple of obvious and easy points

    The reporter Broder said the 12 volt LA battery was dead. Elon shows readout of Li ion battery and says not dead....?
    Note available range on second graph says Zero mi available. Maybe not dead not usable either.

    The assignment was to use SC stations and show how the SC would free the Model S from slow charging. Charging elsewhere defeats the purpose of the review.
    Elon shows us the slow chargers he could have gone to.

    Elon says Broder went on a long detour through Manhattan giving his brother a ride. He dos not show any evidence but says Broder gave his brother a ride. (I heard that along with a 2 mi rumor.
    The evidence hr did show us was a .6 mi ride "in circles" around a "small parking lot". where the SC is located.
    A different view of the chargers in each link. This was at 5:45 on the eastern edge of the time zone I have no doubt it was dark I have no idea of the light situation and it seems there are only 2.

    http://nyti.ms/X6GhO8

    http://nyti.ms/Ya1nr4

    Frankly 6 tenths of a mile? This is Elon's "Proof" of deception???

    " he drove in circles for over half a mile in a tiny, 100-space parking lot. When the Model S valiantly refused to die, "
    Yeah valiant .6 mi if he seriously tried around the block once or twice would have done it.

    I rarely say this but OMG!
    Feb 14 04:18 AM | 7 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Tesla: Magnifying Rather Than Quelling Range Anxiety [View article]
    I have on more than one occasion thought the people on the Tesla motor forum were far more balanced than the totally blind fanatics we get on SA.
    Even so I was shocked at this.
    50 pages of reasonably balanced discussion on the NYT article.
    Some flames some saying it's about time Tesla acknowledged it.
    I've only read 5 pages or so but it looks good.

    http://bit.ly/X6GhxR

    Tesla has trouble in the cold and lots of folks on Tesla's motor club think it's time Tesla stopped denying it and start doing something about it.

    commenter patp
    "While I agree the reported was a little bit naive, many *normal* people will experience this - and this is not good publicity for electric cars and Tesla.

    The cold weather drop in range is really big and there's nothing that prepares you to this. My first trip in the cold was around 150 miles and I barely made it (10 miles left) when I arrived home. And this was with a range charge. The same thing happened to a friend of mine.

    - The range display should be adjusting to weather / real driving conditions. So, you would never THINK you have 265 miles, while the reality is 150 miles in very cold weather / snow.
    - Supercharger stations should be closer apart in cold regions (I would suggest a max. of 150 miles - at least here in Canada). "

    Tesla is blindsiding their customers with this.

    commenter dave
    "I have to admit that I was also surprised by the vampire loss, and the cold penalties when I received my car. My previous Tesla research had not prepared me for them, and I only become educated by religiously keeping up with this forum. "

    It doesn't seem like reading the manual truly prepares owners for the range loss in the cold of winter.

    commenter dsm363
    "The article brings up a lot of valid points and issues with EV travel but loses all credibility with the way he handled his trip at the end. It does highlight the need for at least more 110V outlets are places like hotels. Not great but would be better than nothing. "
    If you don't like what they said.
    Go to Tesla motor Club and tell it to the Model-S owners,

    There are 50 pages of comments
    on the pages I've looked at more than half agree in part with the NYT

    This is another example of Tesla communicating inaccurate or potentially misleading information about the car to customers. Tesla should include in its owner's manual a concise, accurate discussion of long-distance driving -- one that does not assume that everyone lives in perfect 70°F climates. There's a huge amount of lore developed by the EV pioneers that Tesla should convey to its customers. Had they done so, then this NYT debacle either wouldn't have occurred, or at least Tesla could have rebutted the story by showing how the reporter directly contradicted the printed recommendations for driving the Model S. As it stands, it appears that Tesla personnel exacerbated the problem. Serious PR fail -- Tesla should have been monitoring this car and its SOC like a hawk and flagged the issue long before it flagged down a tow truck.

    They want Tesla to fix the problem not act like the EVangelists here and deny it's existence.
    Feb 14 03:00 AM | 4 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Axion Power Concentrator 207: Feb. 10: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern [View instapost]
    D
    I spent far too much time working it all out for you. but it's rather tedious . As I have worked it out I'll include it but the reality is if the NYT's article isn't true it should be and I'll give you better proof.
    I have on more than one occasion thought the people on the Tesla motor forum were far more balanced than the totally blind fanatics we get on SA.
    Even so I was shocked at this.
    50 pages of reasonably balanced discussion on the NYT article.
    Some flames some saying it's about time Tesla acknowledged it.


    http://bit.ly/X6GhxR

    The first comment by
    I have on more than one occasion thought the people on the Tesla motor forum were far more balanced than the totally blind fanatics we get on SA.
    Even so I was shocked at this.
    50 pages of reasonably balanced discussion on the NYT article.
    Some flames some saying it's about time Tesla acknowledged it.
    I've just started reading it.

    http://bit.ly/X6GhxR

    The first comment by Mycroft
    I thought it was a very fair article and his experience matches many who've seen their range drop ridiculously fast while parked overnight in freezing weather. Tesla needs to be more forthcoming in their cold climate information as well as installing more superchargers in the northern climes.

    Here is the rather tedious answer to your question
    1) how many miles was the detour?
    Rumor 2 mi.

    2) how fast exactly did he drive and for how many miles?
    I put together an answer from the article the map and a tweet or two. (This is the NYT's side)

    There is a map with miles and times.
    But the the author on one occasion at least didn't record the time when he stopped but rather when he got back it the car after a 'short' break. So depending on whether he collected info before charging or after in one instance he averaged just under 40 or just under 80mph

    Note :
    Broder, the author, seems to believe 242 is a full charge.
    I don't believe is a range mode full charge. But I've heard 252, 270 and 300 mi for a full range charge.

    Map
    http://nyti.ms/X6GhO8

    Article
    http://nyti.ms/Ya1nr4

    1.
    He got the car with "full" charge at 11:00 am (Range mode or not he may not know.)

    2.
    12:24 pm First charge at supercharger 114mi
    12:24 - 11:00 = 1hour 24 min
    That millage and distance works to about 80mph.
    Speed limit +10 I assume.

    Charged 49 min. 242 mi available
    Left at 1:13

    "As I crossed into New Jersey some 15 miles later, I noticed that the estimated range was falling faster than miles were accumulating. At 68 miles since recharging, the range had dropped by 85 miles, and a little mental math told me that reaching Milford would be a stretch. "
    (25% greater loss of range than actual millage.)
    This is the point he stated he started driving slower and using less heat.
    So probably 80 for the first 68mi slowing down lowering the heat etc until he reached 54mph with climate control on 1.

    "Nearing New York, I made the first of several calls to Tesla officials about my creeping range anxiety. "

    3.
    3:49 pm Manhattan.133 mi
    1:13 to 3:49 is 2hours 36min Includes 'short' break in Manhattan. For easy math assume 23 min break.This would be 60mph average. But some was probably 80 the rest increasingly slower.

    Clearly Broder has stated he was aware he had a range problem before New York/Manhattan. To take a major detour after realizing this would be deliberate move.
    On CNBC Musk said he took a long detour in Manhattan.

    (Rumor says 2 mi.) After 2 or so hours on the road without much heat he probably was looking for a pit stop also something warm to drink.

    Note:
    The assignment was to checkout the SC network, not to checkout the car. He could have gone to a Tesla dealership within a few mi. I assume he could have charged there.

    Maximized range to SC station.
    "About 20 miles from Milford, less than 10 miles of range remained. I called Tesla again, and Ted Merendino, a product planner, told me that even when the display reached zero there would still be a few miles of cushion."

    Note:
    Later when a Tesla rep told he can leave despite the range gauge saying he did not have have enough power is when Broder was stranded. (Not enough cushion)

    At some point after Broder got to Manhattan Musk claims Tesla called Broder to see why he was goofing around speeding 10 + mph. and Taking a detour. Possibly this was 2 calls as the speeding was early on and why would he call about a detour in Manhattan when he has already left?

    4.
    5:45 pm Supercharger 73 mi Plus the 133 before Manhattan Total 206 mi Charged 58 min
    5:45 - 3:49 = 1:56
    He averaged 40mph (Rush hour may have been part of the problem.)


    5.
    9:45 pm Groton 79 mi range 90
    I drove, slowly, to Stonington, Conn., for dinner and spent the night in Groton, a total distance of 79 miles. When I parked the car, its computer said I had 90 miles of range, twice the 46 miles back to Milford.
    (Stoningham is not on the map nor did he take stats there. Judging by the numbers: each way was 16.5 miles extra driving)

    He left the SC station with185 miles of predicted range.
    He intended to end in Groton 79mi (including dinner in Stoningham) and drive 46mi back to the SC station in the AM.

    79 + 46 = 125mi except there are planned range estimate was 185 so he planned 60 mi of extra range. 50% extra.

    At 8:30 am he had 25mi of range. 72% loss overnight. Which was not enough to get to the SC station. He contacted Tesla who found a charger in a different direction than the SC.

    6.
    I think he made a math error here. while he has written 11 mi here.
    When he gives the millage to where the car dies and the SC I think he forgot this was a separate entry.
    9:55 am Norwich 11 mi driven
    A slow charger he estimates an hour later a Tesla rep said he had enough range to reach the SC station despite the dash reading 37 mi and he had 57mi to go. (46 from Groton to the SC station plus backtracking the 11 he just drove to Norwich)

    7.
    12:30 pm flatbed to SC
    The car died at 51mi. This is one error. It was 51 mi from Groton only 40 mi from Norwich. This is 17mi short of the SC station.

    8.
    2:40 pm SC station
    68 mi this also assumes Groton as the starting point and ignores Norwich and the millage at the spot where picked up by the flatbed towtruck.
    80 minutes charge range estimate 216mi

    9.
    5:25 pm Tesla dealership 71 mi estimated range 124 mi
    216 - 71 = 145 should be left 124 are left. 21 mi difference.
    71 mi driven an extra 21 miles of range was lost
    33% lost.

    If anybody read this far thanks.
    Feb 14 02:28 AM | 5 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Axion Power Concentrator 207: Feb. 10: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern [View instapost]
    D
    Yeah I figured that would take all of ten minutes. Elon could have released them for the CNBC interview.
    After all they were watching him in real time according to Musk.
    I don't believe they were not recording at the same time.

    This is all about getting the spin right.
    Feb 13 07:59 PM | 3 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Axion Power Concentrator 207: Feb. 10: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern [View instapost]
    SM
    Quotes? OK how about the POTUS:

    "We need a 10 X better battery."

    To bad he didn't figure that out 4 years ago.
    Feb 13 07:51 PM | 5 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Tesla: Magnifying Rather Than Quelling Range Anxiety [View article]
    Bbor
    10 years isn't even the average age of an ICE on the road today.

    Jalopy Nation? The Average Car on the Road Has Never Been Older

    http://ti.me/XI3GDN

    Even after a year when sales of new cars increased by nearly 11% compared to 2010, thereby lowering the average age of cars on the road, the typical automobile today is ancient compared to its counterpart in the mid-’90s. In 1995, the average passenger car in operation in the U.S. was 8.4 years old, compared to 11+ years old nowadays.

    These are the findings of the automotive research firm Polk, which released data showing that, as of June 2011, the average passenger car on the road was 11.1 years old, up from 11.0 as of 2010 and 10.8 in 2009.
    Feb 12 06:21 PM | 2 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Tesla: Magnifying Rather Than Quelling Range Anxiety [View article]
    A report by a Model-S owner who planed her first trip in the January chill.
    Seems she had worse problems than the NYT.

    Maybe she didn't read the owners manual?
    Feb 12 06:09 PM | Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Axion Power Concentrator 206: Feb. 6: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern [View instapost]
    Luckily there should be cell logs as well.
    Probably receipts from stops also.
    Feb 12 10:44 AM | 5 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Axion Power Concentrator 207: Feb. 10: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern [View instapost]
    Oz
    Possibly not the first time but it was dismissed the second time for being frivolous.


    Tesla libel suit against Top Gear fails again
    http://aol.it/13TAIon#

    " Tesla and the company's lawyers are nothing if not determined. After a judge smacked down the electric vehicle manufacturer's libel suit against the BBC and Top Gear for comments made about the range of the Tesla Roadster, the automaker rallied with a second, amended lawsuit. It didn't take long for the the same judge to nix the new case, too, saying the amendment was "not capable of being defamatory at all, or, if it is, it is not capable of being a sufficiently serious defamatory meaning to constitute a real and substantial tort."

    That sound? It's the smack of the judicial backhand."
    Feb 12 01:27 AM | 4 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Axion Power Concentrator 207: Feb. 10: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern [View instapost]

    " Regardless of what the logs say the reporter admitted he did not start with a full charge, did not charge long enough when he stopped at a charger,"

    Let's see the reporter states he got enough charge for 185 mi.

    His route was 79 mi that evening and a planned 46 mi back to the charger. Total 125 mi. A 60 mi cushion.
    Yet as he did not go for a full charge he was negligent?


    " took a detour, and did not plug in over night. Since the car was completely capable of making this trip successfully the only reason it didn't was because of the operator. "

    Yes the driver/operator did not know the car would lose 72% of its battery charge at night.
    Tesla who approved of the trip and the route and were watching him in real time; would know he was not plugged in.
    Elon stated they contacted him about deviating from his route and for driving 10 or so mi over the speed limit.
    Yet did not tell him or contact him about this?

    Sure I believe that.
    Feb 12 01:14 AM | 6 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Axion Power Concentrator 207: Feb. 10: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern [View instapost]
    Oz
    Top Gear would have run out the battery had they tried to run a full test. They stopped rather than hurt the battery.
    The court threw out Tesla's suit. Tesla tried again and the suit was thrown out again.
    Should Tesla not be called on nonsense lawsuits?
    What about Musketeers who repeat false nonsense?
    Feb 12 12:40 AM | 7 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Axion Power Concentrator 207: Feb. 10: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern [View instapost]
    B19
    I was surprised that the two battery packs don't seem to back each other up.
    A scram jet dropped down and powered up the electronics in the Demo/Prototype? Dreamliner that had a battery fire.
    I don't know what backs up the power in the ones they are building now.
    Feb 12 12:09 AM | 3 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Axion Power Concentrator 207: Feb. 10: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern [View instapost]
    D Lane
    Bill Gates is a believer in global warming The link is to an interview of him.
    He says the economics of intermittent energy is terrible. in addition to the renewables you have to add the cost of energy storage. (Also really bad) He is investing in start up companies for both purposes. The point being he thinks these companies could possibly lower the costs so it possible for this to power the world without making it unlivable.

    http://bit.ly/XEQobi
    March 2012..... 47 min

    It was worth my time.
    Feb 12 12:00 AM | 5 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Axion Power Concentrator 207: Feb. 10: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern [View instapost]
    Elon has posted is that they had real time surveillance on him?
    And informed him of that fact by calling him (if not before.)
    It may be part of the disclosure I'm not saying this is nefarious.

    What I am saying is for this guy to go ahead and do stupid things knowing there is a complete record. Either the guy is completely crazy or Musk is lying his teeth out.
    As Musk has a history of playing fast and loose with the truth I expect it's him but It's a lawsuit. (Libel) Not the first time Musk has been taken to court for that. (Settled out of court)

    Then Tesla was fully aware he had not plugged in the vehicle at night.
    No mention about contacting him for that?

    Elon didn't mention it at all in the interview.
    That seems like it would have been a biggie. Far more so than saying the guy drove 10 mi and a bit more over the speed limit for a time.
    Especially since this was the time he actually ran out of power. Not when he was supposed to on the extended detour in Manhattan.
    Feb 11 11:18 PM | 4 Likes Like |Link to Comment
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