Charles Gasparino says that Third Point's Dan Loeb was apparently cracking jokes about Bill Ackman and his research behind Herbalife (HLF +1.8%) during a SALT 2013 presentation today. Loeb said the market essentially overreacted to the "Ack-attack" given cash flow and other metrics, and that Carl Icahn gave him confidence in taking a long position in the stock, which he has since gotten out of. [View news story]
"Craig Joyce" enlightens us with a deep insight into the psyche of the type of MLM and other frad we pursue with this revelation...
“I still find it really hard to believe that anyone cares if HLF is a scam or not. Do you really think Carl Ichan would be involved in this, if he didn't think he could make money? The public evisceration of Ackman is merely a cherry a top his cake.
The giant mountain of text spilled over HLF is 99% beside the point, "can you make money on the stock?....."”
Right – Two basic human traits displayed in these battles against fraud that separate humans from animals. 1) Humanitarian: The ability to empathize. 2) Human, but not Humanitarian: Greed and the ability to consciously conspire to harm and or defraud fellow human beings on a massive scale –immoral-amoral-narcis...
And as we see, there are individuals who actually do find it…
“…really hard to believe that anyone cares if HLF [or I suppose any other operation] is a scam or not.”
Though they may be in the minority there do exist human beings who do care about their fellow human beings and their families even though they have never met and may live oceans apart on the other side of the globe. They care about families they don’t know who live in their community whose sons or daughters may be attending university, college, or even high school and being continually targeted by “business opportunity” scams capable of robbing them of their tuition and negatively impacting their lives forever. They “foolishly” care about seniors, the financially unsophisticated, the poor, being relentlessly “ripped off” by wealthy, sophisticated, international white-collar fraud artists.
But why care; if profits can be made? A moral question lost on the greedy and narcissistic; a concept that simply does not exist in the consciousness of the greedy and narcissistic.
And to many, these ideals have no place in the business world, if by ignoring them, retaliating against whistleblowers and engaging in reprisals “turns a profit.”
Herbalife KPMG Affair Compelling Opportunity For Shareholders [View article]
“Financemc” further comments…
“David;
I've got it; you are the ultimate sleuth and all of the other regulatory agencies and KPMG are incompetent. I got it. So bet the farm short, Ackman did. We will see in the end. Keep up the good work.
It's an investment for me and for you it seems to be "life's mission". Don't let me get in your way. Bet very, very big on the short and do good deeds with your well earned money.”
Do I detect perhaps a modicum of sarcasm, “financemc?” …
Nonetheless what you have written is essentially correct, but on the issue of incompetence, it may not be simply incompetence. It could also be, as I have pointed out, neglect, willful blindness, simple arrogance or political pandering and interference, and I might add brainwashing, but thank you for the clarity and accuracy in your reply; intended or not.
A misconception is that I’m short HLF. But I have no direct monetary stake in HLF only broadly as a member of society. But if the government fails to shut HLF down and sufficient numbers of individuals are convinced it is a legitimate enterprise, coupled with respected financial advisors, analysts, and brokerage firms recommending it and their followers continually throwing money at it, then the shares of HLF will no doubt soar in the short term; certainly they have recovered significantly; that cannot be denied. And that being said, the “shorts,” if they hang on long enough would be predictably wiped out, but further down the road, predictably, future losses for longs will be massive.
Again, comparing HLF, to say, the likes of Pigeon King International: The second three years of operation were over 4000% of the first 3 years and rather than having to actually work the “enterprise” as they did during the first three years of operation, as with Madoff’s scheme, word of mouth touting the apparent phenomenal success of the scheme had farmers clamoring to get in on this fantastic “business opportunity.”
Neither Canadian nor U.S. federal government agencies were shutting PKI down. A few intelligent State’s Attorney’s General who listen to us, did. The police where the scam was incubated, claimed there was nothing criminal in the operation; the mainstream media, financial advisors, banks, accountants etc, promoted the scheme and the BBB failed to warn potential victims even after we informed the BBB.
Had it not been for our relentless attacks, PKI could have, and probably would have been able to recruit every available and willing farm family in Canada and the U.S., and like Madoff and HLF, intended to spread the scheme to Europe, Asia and world-wide.
In less than six years PKI had actually become the second largest producer of pigeons globally. This would have resulted in the same massive financial ruin to North American farm families and the agricultural industry worldwide that Madoff’s scheme wreaked on world financial markets.
That was the easily predictable scenario.
But those who fail to learn the lessons of history are prone to repeat them.
Herbalife KPMG Affair Compelling Opportunity For Shareholders [View article]
First, “financemc” in reply to your statement …
“I am not attempting to "prove" anything. I could if I had complete access to the company's files and records but I do not so I cannot "prove" anything.”
A professional or even a skillful amateur investigator knows there is more than one way to “skin a cat” or collect collaborating evidence to prove a crime… in these specific scenarios, fraud, without having complete access to company records. I would also assume a “financial major” would know that.
Examining the contracts and agreements of participants, the flow of products and services and of course the “tried & true”… “follow the money,” are but a few. To lament… “NOTHING can be proved without complete access to company records” is a fallacy; for some a hopeless misconception; for others a convenient excuse.
It was that very excuse cited by the Waterloo Regional Fraud Squad when I revealed my findings and explained not only how investigators could accurately conclude that PKI was a Ponzi scheme, but also accurately predict within days, the inevitable collapse of this particular scheme maintaining a bank balance of between 2 and $4,000,000 dollars per month but with “off balance sheet” liabilities of approximately $1,000,000,000 which could only be honoured monthly, through a constant flow of tens of millions of dollars from later participants. It was all there "in plain view" without the support of actual company records... and AFTER the collapse of PKI, turned out to be accurate.
Secondly, in my admonishment of the various Canadian and U.S. law enforcement and regulatory agencies in which I wrote… “Compare THAT to the [dismal] record of the Canadian Federal CRA, RCMP, provincial and local investigators, the U.S. SEC, FTC, FBI, all of whom have missed myriad pyramid/Ponzi schemes through neglect, incompetence, willful blindness or simple arrogance… I neglected to add one of the most important… Political pandering and interference!
That’s the way I see it, and there exists an abundance of publicly available evidence supporting that view.
Herbalife KPMG Affair Compelling Opportunity For Shareholders [View article]
“financemc” writes…
Please elucidate, otherwise disparaging a company that you "feel" should be disparaged and lumped in with a few fraudulent companies is not helpful.
If you have EVIDENCE that HLF is a fraud please explain; not using Ackman's pathetic presentation."
Your response “financemc” is almost laughable, but I’m sure you’re sincere: Certainly it’s an irony. First, I do not simply “lump in” with a few fraudulent companies any company I simply “feel” should be disparaged.
Secondly, The irony is that you echo the same arguments as the professional bankers, financial advisors, finance majors etc., who failed to recognize the evidence of fraud I presented in the beforementioned pyramid/Ponzi schemes.
You want me to elucidate or make abundantly manifest the evidence that HLF is a fraud... I have, all over this forum and the Internet: Over and over! But like the professionals supporting these other scams you simply fail to recognize, or refuse to see the “red flags” or comprehend the evidence supporting my conclusions.
I said it before, but to be perfectly clear, my conclusions with respect to Herbalife, are based upon my own research, years before I ever heard of Ackman or his presentation, which, incidentally, I have only skimmed simply because it is unnecessary for me to peruse his very detailed exposé and further evidence in order to conclude HLF is a pyramid scheme.
There is much misinformation posted on the Internet defining pyramid/Ponzi schemes… i.e. Ponzi schemes are only financial “money schemes” without product… False! Ponzi schemes can be perpetrated with or without product attached (i.e. Pigeon King International).
A “matrix” or “uplines – downlines” with product are not a pyramid schemes... Pyramid schemes do not have products for sale… False! Pyramid schemes can also be perpetrated with or without product attached (TTI BIM)
A Ponzi scheme is a fraud in which an individual or pseudo corporation controls all the proceeds flowing into the scheme and earlier participants are paid with a steady stream of revenue from new participants until collapse. And as I appointed out, can be perpetrated with or without product.
The typical pyramid scheme is one in which individuals collect proceeds from friends, family, coworkers, by “cold calling” etc, in pyramid shaped “uplines and downlines” for the lack of better words. The vast majority (99%) of these individual pyramids, unlike the Ponzi schemes are in a constant revolving state of collapse as recruitment continues to saturation. In the Ponzi scheme losses only occur at the end when saturation occurs and the Ponzi scheme becomes unsustainable and unstable ending in a sudden collapse. But the principle of both is the same, and treated the same, at least in the Canadian Criminal Code.
And as I say, I put my findings and warnings out in several of these previous pyramid/Ponzi schemes, but like Madoff’s scheme my warnings were ignored either willfully or as a result of arrogance or incompetence. The fact is, I have never been proven wrong with respect to any pseudo corporation I’ve targeted. Compare THAT to the record of the Canadian Federal CRA, RCMP, provincial and local fraud investigators, the U.S. SEC, FTC, FBI, all of whom have missed myriad pyramid/Ponzi schemes through neglect, incompetence, willful blindness or simple arrogance.
The FBI, Homeland Security, Border Guard, police officers and other government personnel were themselves “burned” in a 20 year, $23,000,000 fraud, that had I been aware of I would have recognized in about 10 minutes was a Ponzi scheme and within hours could have presented the obvious “hard evidence.”
So really, “financemc” taking all that into consideration, in reality who has the credibility here?
Herbalife KPMG Affair Compelling Opportunity For Shareholders [View article]
“financemc” writes….
“David;
The partner in KPMG was giving inside information to a friend to trade on- HLF was a victim of a crime along with the other companies' whose inside information was divulged.
Ponzi \Pyramid schemes use "investors" money to pay returns to other investors. HLF sells product and does not take stockholders' money to pay new stockholders. MLM's are inherently unstable because the more people on a down line the more expensive the product has to be to pay all the upline. ie, a bottle of MonaLee Acacia juice is more than $25.
MLM's are not good businesses unless you own it- which HLF's stockholders do. The participants generally get a dietary supplement for their money and some people actually make money being a distributor- very few.”
Nothing, “financemc” in what you state here proves HLF is not a pyramid scheme. Many companies with products have been shut down as pyramid schemes. Depends on what is hidden, not recognized, or recognized and not acknowledged.
i.e. Banks, financial advisors, BBB, politicians, the Waterloo Regional Fraud Squad, the media and others refused to accept my evidence that PKI was a massive Ponzi scheme. The police went as far as appearing on National T.V. to explain to the world that THEY too could find nothing illegal in this operation. It was, after all touted by the promoter with the backing of banks and others that it was a “debt free” corporation, and that was “proven” by the 2-5 million dollars carried each month in his bank account with no outstanding debts for his buildings, hard assets, supplies, etc, even his home: Much of it paid in cash.
Problem was no one would listen or investigate the simple fact he owed future contracts to his “pigeon breeders” of about $1,000,000,000 he was keeping off the liability side of the balance sheet: So obvious and easy to discover.
Why was it then, that I, the whistleblower with a grade 10 vocational education could see that clearly, while all these professionionals; banks, Finance Majors, etc, not only didn’t see the scam on their own, but rejected the simple EVIDENCE when it was clearly presented to them?
Perhaps we will get some more answers from his upcoming trial since in the end; years later, he was arrested and charged for perpetrating a Ponzi scheme.
That is simply a graphic example of evidence supporting the fact pyramid/Ponzi schemes can go undetected for years even with prima facie evidence staring into the faces of financial experts and law enforcement, and nothing so far presented proves that such is not the case in Herbalife that we claim is a pyramid scheme. Again, Holiday Magic and other pyramid schemes shut down after years of operation, distributed real, and apparently, quality products.
Charles Gasparino says that Third Point's Dan Loeb was apparently cracking jokes about Bill Ackman and his research behind Herbalife (HLF +1.8%) during a SALT 2013 presentation today. Loeb said the market essentially overreacted to the "Ack-attack" given cash flow and other metrics, and that Carl Icahn gave him confidence in taking a long position in the stock, which he has since gotten out of. [View news story]
"powershake" posts...
"J Collins - Leon Cooperman said he is foolish for going public with his short and runs the risk of being sued by those who followed his advice. He is trapped I think --- but I'm not a lawyer"
Too bad if that scenario unfolds, because Ackman is correct in his assessment of HLF. Almost any pyramid/Ponzi scheme will generate abnormally high profits for some on the backs of future victims until it collapses or is shut down by authorities... witness Madoff, Holiday Magic, Dare to be Great, PIP, TTI, BIM, PKI, Alpha Club, etc, etc, etc, allowed to operate illegally for years.
Responding to "powershake's quote from Motley Fool....
"Bill Ackman may have shorted Herbalife while the company is still in its rapid growth phase… In other words, it is too early to determine deceleration in demand, and since that is the case, the stock should not be shorted, and is a bargain at these levels."
Again, sophisticated jargon in an obfuscated explanation of a pyramid scheme…
“it is too early to determine deceleration in demand” = pyramid scheme reaching saturation with the last layer of suckers stuck without a “pool of new recruits.
And of course like all pyramid schemes, until that happens or the authorities shut it down there exists a great opportunity to “clean up” on the backs of future losers.
Note: We have not attacked the product (deserved or not) nor have we suggested that unbelievable profits cannot to be realized by some: It is the method by which these schemes operate and profits accrue that is the focus of our attacks.
This demonstrates just how easily a pyramid scheme can make those at the top quick and immense fortunes before they are either shut down by authorities or collapse from the weight of unsustainable exponential growth, if, as we are confident and have predicted, Herbalife is indeed an illegal unsustainable pyramid scheme.
So far the HLF story parallels myriad pyramid/Ponzi schemes shut down by authorities and vastly more that, although illegal, have collapsed, sadly after years of operation without warranted government intervention.
Regardless of the outcome, one side or the other will have to eat their words, and what a blow to the “professional” analysts who have staked their reputations on promoting HLF shares, if, like Madoff, it becomes clear HLF is a pyramid scheme.
Herbalife KPMG Affair Compelling Opportunity For Shareholders [View article]
"financemic" writes to "edwar77"....
"Even Ackman is not saying that hlf"s books are cooked. He says that the business model is a fraud and they should be shut down. I think the chances of that are slim and so does Icahn.
The auditor issue is not an issue."
Everything is an issue in a pseudo corporation/pyramid scheme. Should accountants not be able to detect where the money originates in a pyramid scheme; particularly when they have access to the cash flow, and when lesser educated individuals can recognize and root out pyramid schemes without all the inside information accessible to these “professionals?”
Herbalife's Ackman Charge And Earnings Review [View article]
“powershake” touts…
“Herbalife (US:hlf) kept its long winning streak alive, topping Wall Street's profit target for the 17th consecutive quarter.
Herbalife recorded sales of $1.1 billion, up 17% year-over-year, and adjusted net income of $137.4 million, up 27%. Earnings per share of $1.10 beat estimates…..etc.”
I would certainly have to agree: Amazing results!!! Month after month, year over year; sounds unbelievable… but then what is the well worn adage “pounded” into the public’s psyche by bankers, brokers, financial advisors, consumer advocates, even the questionable BBB, fraud detectives, government agencies, media moguls, etc, etc, etc, decade after decade, fraud after fraud…. “If It Sounds Too Good To Be True… It Probably Is”… How soon so many forget or choose willful blindness over common sense!!!
David Thornton We actively hunt down, expose and destroy money-laundering pseudo corporations posing as legitimate "Business Opportunities” ….Because it is the right thing to do. If you feel you don’t fit that description and feel that we have libeled your corporation or you personally; don’t endure attacks on your character, reputation and credibility suffering millions in losses….. SUE!
Herbalife's Ackman Charge And Earnings Review [View article]
"rubiconrich" writes -
"Herbalife is at the forefront or 2 megatrends ... Weight Management.... & now, the FITNESS trend. The fundamentals are being ignored by many analysts who love to come to professional opinions without any regard to actual fundamentals. Carry on with all the bean counting..."
Of course none of that matters when a pseudo corporation is a pyramid scheme.
David Thornton We actively hunt down, expose and destroy money-laundering pseudo corporations posing as legitimate "Business Opportunities” ….Because it is the right thing to do. If you feel you don’t fit that description and feel that we have libeled your corporation or you personally; don’t endure attacks on your character, reputation and credibility suffering millions in losses….. SUE!
What Bill Ackman Doesn't Want You To Know About The FHTM Case [View article]
“just2look” in seeming angry pretense posted ……
“Messagecrimebustersnow: "An old but sometimes applicable cliché... But not in this case: The fact is, there is not, and never has been any “money in it” for me in closing these reprehensible pyramid/Ponzi schemes down."
What "pyramid/Ponzi schemes" have YOU shut down? Seems all you do is make accusations in public in some pathetic, masochistic quest to be sued by someone ... anyone.”
“Not someone... anyone,” just2look” --- I am not an indiscriminate pyramid/Ponzi, MLM, Network Marketing scammer willing to target anyone from grandma, friends and strangers, the financially desperate, to 16 year-old kids, etc!!!
You, “just2look,” are not seeking information or the truth, or you would simply click the links I provided and read the judgment, search the ‘Net to see what the victims have written on the schemes we have targeted and their demise (fraudulent schemes) “jus2look” …… “not someone….. anyone.”) …..
TTI-BIM, Pigeon King International; both perpetrators on trial; one in jail on other charges; The Sum-It Club, run by a lawyer and his sister that recruited cops and a least one provincial prosecutor who also taught in a prestigious Toronto College closed down after we pursued them with Small Claim’s Court actions on behalf of students.
Don’t keep asking me “just2look”… you ignore everything I explain to you anyway. Get hold of the “Pigeon King” and ask him… Ask him; he will be back in court soon. Ask him…“Who was the guy you kept telling the media was a “Fear Monger” costing you a-million-a-week until you went bankrupt and reason you’re so angry….. since it was after the professional Fraud Squad of the W.R.P.S. appeared on national television assuring the world they could find nothing illegal in your operation; that you were a member in good standing with the Canadian Federation of Independent Business (CFIB), had an excellent BBB rating; backed by politicians, accountants, financial advisors, banks, etc, etc, etc; received free air time on talk shows promoting this “savior of the family farm” theme while most considered this “Thornton guy” “nuts???” Ask him “just2look” …. “What about the $130 million potential with the Hutterite colonies of Canada and Montana having scored three of some 130 colonies for .5 million, 1 million, 1.5 million until the fatal day a honest banker, took the time to warn them, directing them to the email and comments circulated on the Internet, calls directly to feed mills, black smith shops, Mennonite furniture makers, etc etc… you know, the banker that suggested they get hold of CBNow as soon as possible???... Ask the Pigeon King about that... and if that isn’t enough ask the perpetrators and the followers of the other scams posted… Ask ...and if that still isn’t enough info, “just2look,” ----- SUE ME!!!! And the rest you can hear in a court of law on record as you try to discredit me and defend HLF’s scheme.
David Thornton We actively hunt down, expose and destroy money-laundering pseudo corporations posing as legitimate "Business Opportunities” ….Because it is the right thing to do. If you feel you don’t fit that description and feel that we have libeled your corporation or you personally; don’t endure attacks on your character, reputation and credibility suffering millions in losses….. SUE!
Charles Gasparino says that Third Point's Dan Loeb was apparently cracking jokes about Bill Ackman and his research behind Herbalife (HLF +1.8%) during a SALT 2013 presentation today. Loeb said the market essentially overreacted to the "Ack-attack" given cash flow and other metrics, and that Carl Icahn gave him confidence in taking a long position in the stock, which he has since gotten out of. [View news story]
“I still find it really hard to believe that anyone cares if HLF is a scam or not. Do you really think Carl Ichan would be involved in this, if he didn't think he could make money? The public evisceration of Ackman is merely a cherry a top his cake.
The giant mountain of text spilled over HLF is 99% beside the point, "can you make money on the stock?....."”
Right – Two basic human traits displayed in these battles against fraud that separate humans from animals. 1) Humanitarian: The ability to empathize. 2) Human, but not Humanitarian: Greed and the ability to consciously conspire to harm and or defraud fellow human beings on a massive scale –immoral-amoral-narcis...
And as we see, there are individuals who actually do find it…
“…really hard to believe that anyone cares if HLF [or I suppose any other operation] is a scam or not.”
Though they may be in the minority there do exist human beings who do care about their fellow human beings and their families even though they have never met and may live oceans apart on the other side of the globe. They care about families they don’t know who live in their community whose sons or daughters may be attending university, college, or even high school and being continually targeted by “business opportunity” scams capable of robbing them of their tuition and negatively impacting their lives forever. They “foolishly” care about seniors, the financially unsophisticated, the poor, being relentlessly “ripped off” by wealthy, sophisticated, international white-collar fraud artists.
But why care; if profits can be made? A moral question lost on the greedy and narcissistic; a concept that simply does not exist in the consciousness of the greedy and narcissistic.
And to many, these ideals have no place in the business world, if by ignoring them, retaliating against whistleblowers and engaging in reprisals “turns a profit.”
David Thornton
Herbalife KPMG Affair Compelling Opportunity For Shareholders [View article]
“David;
I've got it; you are the ultimate sleuth and all of the other regulatory agencies and KPMG are incompetent. I got it. So bet the farm short, Ackman did. We will see in the end. Keep up the good work.
It's an investment for me and for you it seems to be "life's mission". Don't let me get in your way. Bet very, very big on the short and do good deeds with your well earned money.”
Do I detect perhaps a modicum of sarcasm, “financemc?” …
Nonetheless what you have written is essentially correct, but on the issue of incompetence, it may not be simply incompetence. It could also be, as I have pointed out, neglect, willful blindness, simple arrogance or political pandering and interference, and I might add brainwashing, but thank you for the clarity and accuracy in your reply; intended or not.
A misconception is that I’m short HLF. But I have no direct monetary stake in HLF only broadly as a member of society. But if the government fails to shut HLF down and sufficient numbers of individuals are convinced it is a legitimate enterprise, coupled with respected financial advisors, analysts, and brokerage firms recommending it and their followers continually throwing money at it, then the shares of HLF will no doubt soar in the short term; certainly they have recovered significantly; that cannot be denied. And that being said, the “shorts,” if they hang on long enough would be predictably wiped out, but further down the road, predictably, future losses for longs will be massive.
Again, comparing HLF, to say, the likes of Pigeon King International: The second three years of operation were over 4000% of the first 3 years and rather than having to actually work the “enterprise” as they did during the first three years of operation, as with Madoff’s scheme, word of mouth touting the apparent phenomenal success of the scheme had farmers clamoring to get in on this fantastic “business opportunity.”
Neither Canadian nor U.S. federal government agencies were shutting PKI down. A few intelligent State’s Attorney’s General who listen to us, did. The police where the scam was incubated, claimed there was nothing criminal in the operation; the mainstream media, financial advisors, banks, accountants etc, promoted the scheme and the BBB failed to warn potential victims even after we informed the BBB.
Had it not been for our relentless attacks, PKI could have, and probably would have been able to recruit every available and willing farm family in Canada and the U.S., and like Madoff and HLF, intended to spread the scheme to Europe, Asia and world-wide.
In less than six years PKI had actually become the second largest producer of pigeons globally. This would have resulted in the same massive financial ruin to North American farm families and the agricultural industry worldwide that Madoff’s scheme wreaked on world financial markets.
That was the easily predictable scenario.
But those who fail to learn the lessons of history are prone to repeat them.
David Thornton
Herbalife KPMG Affair Compelling Opportunity For Shareholders [View article]
“I am not attempting to "prove" anything. I could if I had complete access to the company's files and records but I do not so I cannot "prove" anything.”
A professional or even a skillful amateur investigator knows there is more than one way to “skin a cat” or collect collaborating evidence to prove a crime… in these specific scenarios, fraud, without having complete access to company records. I would also assume a “financial major” would know that.
Examining the contracts and agreements of participants, the flow of products and services and of course the “tried & true”… “follow the money,” are but a few. To lament… “NOTHING can be proved without complete access to company records” is a fallacy; for some a hopeless misconception; for others a convenient excuse.
It was that very excuse cited by the Waterloo Regional Fraud Squad when I revealed my findings and explained not only how investigators could accurately conclude that PKI was a Ponzi scheme, but also accurately predict within days, the inevitable collapse of this particular scheme maintaining a bank balance of between 2 and $4,000,000 dollars per month but with “off balance sheet” liabilities of approximately $1,000,000,000 which could only be honoured monthly, through a constant flow of tens of millions of dollars from later participants. It was all there "in plain view" without the support of actual company records... and AFTER the collapse of PKI, turned out to be accurate.
Secondly, in my admonishment of the various Canadian and U.S. law enforcement and regulatory agencies in which I wrote… “Compare THAT to the [dismal] record of the Canadian Federal CRA, RCMP, provincial and local investigators, the U.S. SEC, FTC, FBI, all of whom have missed myriad pyramid/Ponzi schemes through neglect, incompetence, willful blindness or simple arrogance… I neglected to add one of the most important… Political pandering and interference!
That’s the way I see it, and there exists an abundance of publicly available evidence supporting that view.
David ThorntonPosted
Herbalife KPMG Affair Compelling Opportunity For Shareholders [View article]
Please elucidate, otherwise disparaging a company that you "feel" should be disparaged and lumped in with a few fraudulent companies is not helpful.
If you have EVIDENCE that HLF is a fraud please explain; not using Ackman's pathetic presentation."
Your response “financemc” is almost laughable, but I’m sure you’re sincere: Certainly it’s an irony. First, I do not simply “lump in” with a few fraudulent companies any company I simply “feel” should be disparaged.
Secondly, The irony is that you echo the same arguments as the professional bankers, financial advisors, finance majors etc., who failed to recognize the evidence of fraud I presented in the beforementioned pyramid/Ponzi schemes.
You want me to elucidate or make abundantly manifest the evidence that HLF is a fraud... I have, all over this forum and the Internet: Over and over! But like the professionals supporting these other scams you simply fail to recognize, or refuse to see the “red flags” or comprehend the evidence supporting my conclusions.
I said it before, but to be perfectly clear, my conclusions with respect to Herbalife, are based upon my own research, years before I ever heard of Ackman or his presentation, which, incidentally, I have only skimmed simply because it is unnecessary for me to peruse his very detailed exposé and further evidence in order to conclude HLF is a pyramid scheme.
There is much misinformation posted on the Internet defining pyramid/Ponzi schemes… i.e. Ponzi schemes are only financial “money schemes” without product… False! Ponzi schemes can be perpetrated with or without product attached (i.e. Pigeon King International).
A “matrix” or “uplines – downlines” with product are not a pyramid schemes... Pyramid schemes do not have products for sale… False! Pyramid schemes can also be perpetrated with or without product attached (TTI BIM)
A Ponzi scheme is a fraud in which an individual or pseudo corporation controls all the proceeds flowing into the scheme and earlier participants are paid with a steady stream of revenue from new participants until collapse. And as I appointed out, can be perpetrated with or without product.
The typical pyramid scheme is one in which individuals collect proceeds from friends, family, coworkers, by “cold calling” etc, in pyramid shaped “uplines and downlines” for the lack of better words. The vast majority (99%) of these individual pyramids, unlike the Ponzi schemes are in a constant revolving state of collapse as recruitment continues to saturation. In the Ponzi scheme losses only occur at the end when saturation occurs and the Ponzi scheme becomes unsustainable and unstable ending in a sudden collapse. But the principle of both is the same, and treated the same, at least in the Canadian Criminal Code.
And as I say, I put my findings and warnings out in several of these previous pyramid/Ponzi schemes, but like Madoff’s scheme my warnings were ignored either willfully or as a result of arrogance or incompetence. The fact is, I have never been proven wrong with respect to any pseudo corporation I’ve targeted. Compare THAT to the record of the Canadian Federal CRA, RCMP, provincial and local fraud investigators, the U.S. SEC, FTC, FBI, all of whom have missed myriad pyramid/Ponzi schemes through neglect, incompetence, willful blindness or simple arrogance.
The FBI, Homeland Security, Border Guard, police officers and other government personnel were themselves “burned” in a 20 year, $23,000,000 fraud, that had I been aware of I would have recognized in about 10 minutes was a Ponzi scheme and within hours could have presented the obvious “hard evidence.”
So really, “financemc” taking all that into consideration, in reality who has the credibility here?
David Thornton
Herbalife KPMG Affair Compelling Opportunity For Shareholders [View article]
“David;
The partner in KPMG was giving inside information to a friend to trade on- HLF was a victim of a crime along with the other companies' whose inside information was divulged.
Ponzi \Pyramid schemes use "investors" money to pay returns to other investors. HLF sells product and does not take stockholders' money to pay new stockholders. MLM's are inherently unstable because the more people on a down line the more expensive the product has to be to pay all the upline. ie, a bottle of MonaLee Acacia juice is more than $25.
MLM's are not good businesses unless you own it- which HLF's stockholders do. The participants generally get a dietary supplement for their money and some people actually make money being a distributor- very few.”
Nothing, “financemc” in what you state here proves HLF is not a pyramid scheme. Many companies with products have been shut down as pyramid schemes. Depends on what is hidden, not recognized, or recognized and not acknowledged.
i.e. Banks, financial advisors, BBB, politicians, the Waterloo Regional Fraud Squad, the media and others refused to accept my evidence that PKI was a massive Ponzi scheme. The police went as far as appearing on National T.V. to explain to the world that THEY too could find nothing illegal in this operation. It was, after all touted by the promoter with the backing of banks and others that it was a “debt free” corporation, and that was “proven” by the 2-5 million dollars carried each month in his bank account with no outstanding debts for his buildings, hard assets, supplies, etc, even his home: Much of it paid in cash.
Problem was no one would listen or investigate the simple fact he owed future contracts to his “pigeon breeders” of about $1,000,000,000 he was keeping off the liability side of the balance sheet: So obvious and easy to discover.
Why was it then, that I, the whistleblower with a grade 10 vocational education could see that clearly, while all these professionionals; banks, Finance Majors, etc, not only didn’t see the scam on their own, but rejected the simple EVIDENCE when it was clearly presented to them?
Perhaps we will get some more answers from his upcoming trial since in the end; years later, he was arrested and charged for perpetrating a Ponzi scheme.
That is simply a graphic example of evidence supporting the fact pyramid/Ponzi schemes can go undetected for years even with prima facie evidence staring into the faces of financial experts and law enforcement, and nothing so far presented proves that such is not the case in Herbalife that we claim is a pyramid scheme. Again, Holiday Magic and other pyramid schemes shut down after years of operation, distributed real, and apparently, quality products.
David Thornton
Charles Gasparino says that Third Point's Dan Loeb was apparently cracking jokes about Bill Ackman and his research behind Herbalife (HLF +1.8%) during a SALT 2013 presentation today. Loeb said the market essentially overreacted to the "Ack-attack" given cash flow and other metrics, and that Carl Icahn gave him confidence in taking a long position in the stock, which he has since gotten out of. [View news story]
"J Collins - Leon Cooperman said he is foolish for going public with his short and runs the risk of being sued by those who followed his advice. He is trapped I think --- but I'm not a lawyer"
Too bad if that scenario unfolds, because Ackman is correct in his assessment of HLF. Almost any pyramid/Ponzi scheme will generate abnormally high profits for some on the backs of future victims until it collapses or is shut down by authorities... witness Madoff, Holiday Magic, Dare to be Great, PIP, TTI, BIM, PKI, Alpha Club, etc, etc, etc, allowed to operate illegally for years.
David Thornton
Herbalife Is An Endless Chain [View article]
David Thornton
Herbalife (HLF) gains 1.2% premarket after Carl Icahn disclosed an upped stake in the company (from 15.9% to 16.5%). Bill Ackman speaks today at the Ira Sohn conference. [View news story]
"Bill Ackman may have shorted Herbalife while the company is still in its rapid growth phase… In other words, it is too early to determine deceleration in demand, and since that is the case, the stock should not be shorted, and is a bargain at these levels."
Again, sophisticated jargon in an obfuscated explanation of a pyramid scheme…
“it is too early to determine deceleration in demand” = pyramid scheme reaching saturation with the last layer of suckers stuck without a “pool of new recruits.
And of course like all pyramid schemes, until that happens or the authorities shut it down there exists a great opportunity to “clean up” on the backs of future losers.
Note: We have not attacked the product (deserved or not) nor have we suggested that unbelievable profits cannot to be realized by some: It is the method by which these schemes operate and profits accrue that is the focus of our attacks.
David Thornton
Herbalife (HLF) gains 1.2% premarket after Carl Icahn disclosed an upped stake in the company (from 15.9% to 16.5%). Bill Ackman speaks today at the Ira Sohn conference. [View news story]
So far the HLF story parallels myriad pyramid/Ponzi schemes shut down by authorities and vastly more that, although illegal, have collapsed, sadly after years of operation without warranted government intervention.
Regardless of the outcome, one side or the other will have to eat their words, and what a blow to the “professional” analysts who have staked their reputations on promoting HLF shares, if, like Madoff, it becomes clear HLF is a pyramid scheme.
David Thornton
Herbalife's Ackman Charge And Earnings Review [View article]
"Here's another quote to "ponder" on:
“Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come.”"
Or a pyramid scheme that, like Madoff, YTB, and how many others ignored for decades by the SEC & FTC, FBI etc.
David Thornton
Herbalife KPMG Affair Compelling Opportunity For Shareholders [View article]
"Even Ackman is not saying that hlf"s books are cooked. He says that the business model is a fraud and they should be shut down. I think the chances of that are slim and so does Icahn.
The auditor issue is not an issue."
Everything is an issue in a pseudo corporation/pyramid scheme. Should accountants not be able to detect where the money originates in a pyramid scheme; particularly when they have access to the cash flow, and when lesser educated individuals can recognize and root out pyramid schemes without all the inside information accessible to these “professionals?”
David Thornton
Herbalife's Ackman Charge And Earnings Review [View article]
“Herbalife (US:hlf) kept its long winning streak alive, topping Wall Street's profit target for the 17th consecutive quarter.
Herbalife recorded sales of $1.1 billion, up 17% year-over-year, and adjusted net income of $137.4 million, up 27%. Earnings per share of $1.10 beat estimates…..etc.”
I would certainly have to agree: Amazing results!!! Month after month, year over year; sounds unbelievable… but then what is the well worn adage “pounded” into the public’s psyche by bankers, brokers, financial advisors, consumer advocates, even the questionable BBB, fraud detectives, government agencies, media moguls, etc, etc, etc, decade after decade, fraud after fraud…. “If It Sounds Too Good To Be True… It Probably Is”… How soon so many forget or choose willful blindness over common sense!!!
David Thornton
We actively hunt down, expose and destroy money-laundering pseudo corporations posing as legitimate "Business Opportunities” ….Because it is the right thing to do. If you feel you don’t fit that description and feel that we have libeled your corporation or you personally; don’t endure attacks on your character, reputation and credibility suffering millions in losses….. SUE!
Herbalife's Ackman Charge And Earnings Review [View article]
Herbalife's Ackman Charge And Earnings Review [View article]
"Herbalife is at the forefront or 2 megatrends ... Weight Management.... & now, the FITNESS trend. The fundamentals are being ignored by many analysts who love to come to professional opinions without any regard to actual fundamentals. Carry on with all the bean counting..."
Of course none of that matters when a pseudo corporation is a pyramid scheme.
David Thornton
We actively hunt down, expose and destroy money-laundering pseudo corporations posing as legitimate "Business Opportunities” ….Because it is the right thing to do. If you feel you don’t fit that description and feel that we have libeled your corporation or you personally; don’t endure attacks on your character, reputation and credibility suffering millions in losses….. SUE!
What Bill Ackman Doesn't Want You To Know About The FHTM Case [View article]
“Messagecrimebustersnow: "An old but sometimes applicable cliché... But not in this case: The fact is, there is not, and never has been any “money in it” for me in closing these reprehensible pyramid/Ponzi schemes down."
What "pyramid/Ponzi schemes" have YOU shut down? Seems all you do is make accusations in public in some pathetic, masochistic quest to be sued by someone ... anyone.”
“Not someone... anyone,” just2look” --- I am not an indiscriminate pyramid/Ponzi, MLM, Network Marketing scammer willing to target anyone from grandma, friends and strangers, the financially desperate, to 16 year-old kids, etc!!!
You, “just2look,” are not seeking information or the truth, or you would simply click the links I provided and read the judgment, search the ‘Net to see what the victims have written on the schemes we have targeted and their demise (fraudulent schemes) “jus2look” …… “not someone….. anyone.”) …..
TTI-BIM, Pigeon King International; both perpetrators on trial; one in jail on other charges; The Sum-It Club, run by a lawyer and his sister that recruited cops and a least one provincial prosecutor who also taught in a prestigious Toronto College closed down after we pursued them with Small Claim’s Court actions on behalf of students.
Don’t keep asking me “just2look”… you ignore everything I explain to you anyway. Get hold of the “Pigeon King” and ask him… Ask him; he will be back in court soon. Ask him…“Who was the guy you kept telling the media was a “Fear Monger” costing you a-million-a-week until you went bankrupt and reason you’re so angry….. since it was after the professional Fraud Squad of the W.R.P.S. appeared on national television assuring the world they could find nothing illegal in your operation; that you were a member in good standing with the Canadian Federation of Independent Business (CFIB), had an excellent BBB rating; backed by politicians, accountants, financial advisors, banks, etc, etc, etc; received free air time on talk shows promoting this “savior of the family farm” theme while most considered this “Thornton guy” “nuts???” Ask him “just2look” …. “What about the $130 million potential with the Hutterite colonies of Canada and Montana having scored three of some 130 colonies for .5 million, 1 million, 1.5 million until the fatal day a honest banker, took the time to warn them, directing them to the email and comments circulated on the Internet, calls directly to feed mills, black smith shops, Mennonite furniture makers, etc etc… you know, the banker that suggested they get hold of CBNow as soon as possible???... Ask the Pigeon King about that... and if that isn’t enough ask the perpetrators and the followers of the other scams posted… Ask ...and if that still isn’t enough info, “just2look,” ----- SUE ME!!!! And the rest you can hear in a court of law on record as you try to discredit me and defend HLF’s scheme.
David Thornton
We actively hunt down, expose and destroy money-laundering pseudo corporations posing as legitimate "Business Opportunities” ….Because it is the right thing to do. If you feel you don’t fit that description and feel that we have libeled your corporation or you personally; don’t endure attacks on your character, reputation and credibility suffering millions in losses….. SUE!