One would think that there are other blogs/websites that would address this need, but I can't think of any. SA provided the most diverse and lively discussion. It seems like dropping the options section shows lack of respect for this approach. Value and fundamental investors often degrade it as gambling and even decry that it has a negative effect on the markets. But it can and does work for some people, and it deserves equal consideration. Perhaps they just got tired of the recent rancor. If that's the case, it's their own fault for not holding certain contributors to high standards for professional and courteous conduct. In any case, it's too bad, because the options section exposed me and others to a lot of interesting ideas.
Disagree. The volume of critical comments is appropriate and not at all off topic. If somebody goes on a trading forum, makes outrageous claims, then goes into attack mode at any criticism or even questions, then the criticism is deserved. It is useful in the sense that the red flag is raised, and appropriately so.
Website Is Officially Up And Running - WWW. KEVINMOBRIEN.COM [View instapost]
Kevin has his own website where one presumes there would be a lot of discussion about implementing his model.
As to discussions on day-trading options, SA forums might be a good place, but I can't think of a reason why Kevin's indicators would be an appropriate starting point. Can you?
Website Is Officially Up And Running - WWW. KEVINMOBRIEN.COM [View instapost]
Another very basic question, quikdtor, why in the world would you trade monthlies in a day trading system with trade durations of 5 minutes to a couple hours? Monthlies cost more, especially to get DITM, and the % return is reduced because of this cost. Kevin claims that the monthlies give you a greater safety margin. How can this even be an issue if the trade is of such duration that time decay does not apply?
He has actually tried to answer this question on the forum. He developed the system with monthlies, and they give him a margin of error. Does that really answer the question, or does it evade it?
I think the truth is that he needs that margin of error because he is not truly committed to intraday trades. Monthlies might work better for him because he does in fact hold overnight. So if you want to trade like Kevin, buy monthlies, be prepared to hold overnight if your trade doesn't pan out, and have faith like he does that these things always reverse in his direction if the indicators were right to begin with. I can't say he is wrong in this assertion because he gives us no examples to observe. But these are not the simple day trades he describes in his book.
He's been asked about the monthlies. He answered - I guess as best he could - but not to my satisfaction. So this is a point where normal people would agree to disagree.
Website Is Officially Up And Running - WWW. KEVINMOBRIEN.COM [View instapost]
Quicktdr, Discussion of day-trading options strategy is a good idea. There's been a lot of it, and a lot of information provided by reader Passion4DeepITM, over the past several months. It's hard to know how much of those threads have survived the cuts and deletions. In my own attempt to develop a strategy, I've preserved some of it in a file.
But the question is whether the discussion should center on Kevin's particular approach. Are his indicators reliable triggers for action? In his book, he talks about very short holding periods and never holding overnight, although he does this himself, particularly with no stop loss point in place. In fact, he's said he doesn't like stops, so the method for risk control or keeping losses small is nebulous or non-existent. Kevin claims very few losses and long strings with no losses at all. If he's doing this without any formal risk control applied to his trading plan, then he possesses innate trading instincts that go beyond any structural description of his approach. How can someone learning the system hope to achieve similar results and avoid losses without any structured guidance?
His lack of responsiveness, detail and examples means you can try his approach, but there is no guidance available when you drift into the thickets. As is, it is simply not a comprehensive trading plan.
That leaves the question whether the indicators themselves are strong and reliable enough to build your own trading plan around. They probably do highlight situations where a stock is extremely overbought/oversold and likely to revert to a mean. But these signals are not useful in a breakout situation, and are in fact likely to lead you to exactly the wrong trade.
I'm not sure how much time and energy I want invest in setting up and understanding Kevin's indicators when a straight-forward approach based on support and resistance levels and chart formations, utilizing Bollenger bands and generally available indicators, can give you a more comprehensive picture and a better variety of trades.
Most who have tried Kevin's system report a period of success coupled with huge losses. Of course those losses could be avoided if you applied your own risk management. But then you are not trading the system, are you?
It's especially difficult to learn and trade a questionable system when the purveyor is absent or hostile.
I'm all for a discussion of day-trading options. It occurs on SA, but not in any organized way.
My early options trading was fraught with loss because I just didn't understand time decay. Short trades of deep in the money weeklies give you the best return for foreseeable moves of the underlying. The short holding periods, which means most of the time you are NOT holding, is the best way of all to limit risk.
What is your own experience with Kevin's system, and why might you think that line charts and a collection of overbought/oversold indicators is the way to go? Do you trade it yourself? How do you control risk?
Another thing. Kevin chides Klaiman for his 5% returns. I would love consistent 5% returns on trades. This is another area where Kevin is being disingenuous. In his book, Kevin emphasizes short holding periods, often taking profits on a move of 60 cents to a dollar. These are not home run trades, so I wonder why he is disparaging another trader who goes for modest consistent gains.
Kevin - I don't know if you are trying to expose Kim or change anybody's mind about him, but it didn't work. The idea of a lawsuit is pretty silly. You are claiming interference with commerce? But it's certainly not illegal to criticize and ask questions, especially on an open forum where you're right here to respond.
Kevin, you have these explosions of activity, then just stop responding. You go back and forth between unbridled vitriole and showing signs of being a little bit nice.
But the main thing is - you put big claims out there, and then you just don't answer questions. Nobody really expects you to any more because the pattern is clear.
Do you really make 6K on 25K in a week? Why are you so unwilling to prove and illustrate that? You really seem to want a live subject to spend the week with you. I will volunteer for that under the following conditions: 1. You pay my way and accommodations in San Diego. 2. You put $25,000 of your own money at risk in my account. 3. At the end of the week, if we make money, I will return your 25K. If we lose money, I will return what is left to you. 4. I will honestly and diligently report the results to this forum.
Here is an opportunity for you to do it your way. -Gary
Successfully trading is difficult. I've never seen an author/trader who spends as much effort as Kevin fending off critics and putting people down. Why bother? If you don't like Klaiman, just agree to disagree. I see disputes on SA resolved that way all the time.
The critics are persistent because of the lack of reasoned and transparent responses. The question in Kim's first e-mail here is a good one, yet you utterly fail to address it. The famous GOOG trade. Anybody who followed your advice lost 100%. You said at the time you could afford to take such a loss. Yet now you say you only lost 20%. How hard would it be to show your entry and exit and explain why you deviated from the advice given in the article. And why the story changes? If it's because you took a 100% loss and "rolled" it, that's really just two trades. I've heard from students who recited this scenario of an unproductive session, then you'd leave and come back having made some hugely successful trade. Never any specifics, though.
I want to believe in the Holy Grail. If the method you've devised is reliable and executable, it would be nice to have some rational guidance to it. But the lack of detailed responses plus the lashing out and prolonged feuding makes me feel you're an unreliable resource.
I think you are right, that Kim learned as he went. But he is an astute student who doesn't settle for half-baked answers. It doesn't surprise me that his persistence rubbed you the wrong way. I'm also surprised that he continues to feud with you. Perhaps there is a need to protect honor and correct misinformation, but at some point it might be best to just let you go and stew in your own juices. It's funny that you recently wrote a post that you've been too nice too long, because you just haven't been very nice at all. Calling people idiots and geniuses (sarcastically) - how is that nice?
Kim's is a legitimate and transparent service. You might be surprised to hear that it's not my cup of tea. My psyche requires a little more action and some bigger hits. But it's a staid approach, and "Steady Options" is a good name for it. The quality of the contributors, such as Mark Wolfinger, says something about the legitimacy of the service. I'm sure Mr. Wolfinger wouldn't lend his name to some fly-by-night approach.
Maybe we could learn something from you, Kevin, if you would settle down and focus on providing reasoned responses to people. There are many reasonable questions that you just fail to answer, perhaps because you perceive them as harassment. The question about line charts versus candlesticks is a good one. I am open - minded, and I still can't understand why you prefer line charts for short duration trades.
Kim brings up an interesting point about your disclaimer. Disclaimers are just that - legal gobbledygook. But it raises the question. Do you intend to share and discuss real-time trades on your service, or is it all theoretical? Why have you been unwilling to do that here? Since you do day trading, will there be a live real -time trading room or chat during market hours?
I choose to believe that you're a nice guy who just got bent out of shape by the stress brought on by the feuding on here. I hope you are being honest in portraying yourself as a successful trader. I would ask that we just call a truce, and rationally and reasonably answer questions as they come. If you have something to offer, then offer it.
You are really not misquoted. The things you're persistently asked about are things that you've said. If you were misunderstood or you mis-spoke, say so. - Can and do you consistently make 24% a week day trading? You guaranteed two subscribers on here a $6,000 return on a $25,000 investment. Are you doing that yourself, week after week? If you are, why the reluctance at posting a week or twos sample trades? Even your supporters are starting to say it's because it simply can't be done. Why not just do it and show us? - Why not more detail about controversial trades like the GOOG trade? How does it help your readers if you offer them a falling scenario without dissecting what went wrong or right with the trade? Why is it such a mystery about how exactly you handled that, and lost either 100% or 20% or whatever it was? - if you trade successfully and occasional 100% losses are a part of your plan, why not a straight-forward explanation of your risk/reward strategy. I would take a100% loss if it's likely to be balanced by two 100% gains, but you haven't said that's what you're doing.
Anyway, it would be nice if you just dialed the feud back and if you want to be a mentor, then be one. If I were you and I were making 24% a week, I wouldn't even bother, so I'm not sure why you are. It could be you just have a generous spirit. If so, like all of us, I hope you progress to a kinder and better form of execution. Gary
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There might be a good reason to go with the line charts. And if there is, Kevin, why don't you simply explain it? I suspect you've run different models and found that end-of-interval pricing gives you the best results, and the line charts achieve that without distraction. If that's the answer, it's a pretty simple answer, and critics can take it or leave it and just agree to disagree.
It must be frustrating for you that every time you show up here you come under attack.
As one who has followed every post and every thread from start to finish, I must say that you have only yourself to blame. It's only natural that people have questions. A new reader might not be able to reconstruct the threads because of all the deletions. But the pattern with Kim and Dynamite were the same. They started with skepticism and questions and you replied with insults and evasiveness.
I've known Kim since long before these exchanges started (I introduced him to your articles on SA), and your insinuations that there is something sinister about him are ludicrous. Kim is an arduous options student and researcher and is very honest and transparent in his trading and his web service.
Dynamite has become a detractor of yours, but he didn't start out that way. If you don't recognize why you tend to make enemies on here, then I can't help you.
I'm not even sure why you are dinking around on here, stirring up and receiving all of this animosity if your trading results are anywhere close to what you represent. You say that Kim misquotes you, but I can attest that you've said everything he claims. Perhaps you feel it's taken out of context? If so, just say so. Are you saying that you can make 6K on 15K capital THIS week, but perhaps not every week?
If I were you, I'd do just that - make those kinds of profits - week after week, and forget all the animosity you run into on this site.
I think Kim and Dynamite feel like they are doing a public service in exposing some of your claims. I think they are right - a beginner could come along and read claims like this and go hog wild on your system. It's not asking much at all to answer simple questions and provide a week or two of real-time trading examples. You could still a lot of critics if you just did that. But you get this bristly response that it's nobody's business what you trade. That's true to a point, but when you're an author and the perpetrator or an expensive trading system, the normal course is to answer questions and provide examples. Why is that so hard?
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Trading plans vary, and a 100% loss can be acceptable if you have more winners than losers and consistently have winners of over 100%. I have a friend who trades small call or put positions, holding overnight on ETF options. He's pretty good at getting the direction right, and if the move is big enough, gains of 200% or 300% for DITM options are not uncommon. He goes into it realizing that a100% loss is possible, and sometimes it happens. Not everyone's cup of tea. And it's not what Kevin's GOOG trade was. That was an earnings trade. Kevin's set-up certainly didn't seem to take a 100% loss into consideration, and there wasn't much of a mea culpa afterwards. Dbas, you are familiar with "Trading In the Zone?" Those concepts might help you. The emphasis is on the discipline and planning part of trading rather than becoming a technical master. You do need to master some concepts. Those are simple. But it's still not easy because of the emotional turmoil we create. Trade in control. An under control trader with mediocre technical skills is more likely to be successful than an undisciplined technical genius.
As for Kevin, it's just become a soap opera. All these challenges and claims, then you ask for specific examples and you get these "none of your business" responses. At least on these forums. He gets rankled, then surly and hostile. It's a strange response for somebody selling something, where you'd think the PR aspect would be important.
But he's responded to my e-mails, Mike, and he'll probably respond to yours. So if you really want your questions answered, write him or call him.
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As to discussions on day-trading options, SA forums might be a good place, but I can't think of a reason why Kevin's indicators would be an appropriate starting point. Can you?
Website Is Officially Up And Running - WWW. KEVINMOBRIEN.COM [View instapost]
He has actually tried to answer this question on the forum. He developed the system with monthlies, and they give him a margin of error. Does that really answer the question, or does it evade it?
I think the truth is that he needs that margin of error because he is not truly committed to intraday trades. Monthlies might work better for him because he does in fact hold overnight. So if you want to trade like Kevin, buy monthlies, be prepared to hold overnight if your trade doesn't pan out, and have faith like he does that these things always reverse in his direction if the indicators were right to begin with. I can't say he is wrong in this assertion because he gives us no examples to observe. But these are not the simple day trades he describes in his book.
He's been asked about the monthlies. He answered - I guess as best he could - but not to my satisfaction. So this is a point where normal people would agree to disagree.
Website Is Officially Up And Running - WWW. KEVINMOBRIEN.COM [View instapost]
Discussion of day-trading options strategy is a good idea. There's been a lot of it, and a lot of information provided by reader Passion4DeepITM, over the past several months. It's hard to know how much of those threads have survived the cuts and deletions. In my own attempt to develop a strategy, I've preserved some of it in a file.
But the question is whether the discussion should center on Kevin's particular approach. Are his indicators reliable triggers for action? In his book, he talks about very short holding periods and never holding overnight, although he does this himself, particularly with no stop loss point in place. In fact, he's said he doesn't like stops, so the method for risk control or keeping losses small is nebulous or non-existent. Kevin claims very few losses and long strings with no losses at all. If he's doing this without any formal risk control applied to his trading plan, then he possesses innate trading instincts that go beyond any structural description of his approach. How can someone learning the system hope to achieve similar results and avoid losses without any structured guidance?
His lack of responsiveness, detail and examples means you can try his approach, but there is no guidance available when you drift into the thickets. As is, it is simply not a comprehensive trading plan.
That leaves the question whether the indicators themselves are strong and reliable enough to build your own trading plan around. They probably do highlight situations where a stock is extremely overbought/oversold and likely to revert to a mean. But these signals are not useful in a breakout situation, and are in fact likely to lead you to exactly the wrong trade.
I'm not sure how much time and energy I want invest in setting up and understanding Kevin's indicators when a straight-forward approach based on support and resistance levels and chart formations, utilizing Bollenger bands and generally available indicators, can give you a more comprehensive picture and a better variety of trades.
Most who have tried Kevin's system report a period of success coupled with huge losses. Of course those losses could be avoided if you applied your own risk management. But then you are not trading the system, are you?
It's especially difficult to learn and trade a questionable system when the purveyor is absent or hostile.
I'm all for a discussion of day-trading options. It occurs on SA, but not in any organized way.
My early options trading was fraught with loss because I just didn't understand time decay. Short trades of deep in the money weeklies give you the best return for foreseeable moves of the underlying. The short holding periods, which means most of the time you are NOT holding, is the best way of all to limit risk.
What is your own experience with Kevin's system, and why might you think that line charts and a collection of overbought/oversold indicators is the way to go? Do you trade it yourself? How do you control risk?
Another thing. Kevin chides Klaiman for his 5% returns. I would love consistent 5% returns on trades. This is another area where Kevin is being disingenuous. In his book, Kevin emphasizes short holding periods, often taking profits on a move of 60 cents to a dollar. These are not home run trades, so I wonder why he is disparaging another trader who goes for modest consistent gains.
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Kevin, you have these explosions of activity, then just stop responding. You go back and forth between unbridled vitriole and showing signs of being a little bit nice.
But the main thing is - you put big claims out there, and then you just don't answer questions. Nobody really expects you to any more because the pattern is clear.
Do you really make 6K on 25K in a week? Why are you so unwilling to prove and illustrate that? You really seem to want a live subject to spend the week with you. I will volunteer for that under the following conditions:
1. You pay my way and accommodations in San Diego.
2. You put $25,000 of your own money at risk in my account.
3. At the end of the week, if we make money, I will return your 25K. If we lose money, I will return what is left to you.
4. I will honestly and diligently report the results to this forum.
Here is an opportunity for you to do it your way.
-Gary
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I've never seen an author/trader who spends as much effort as Kevin fending off critics and putting people down. Why bother? If you don't like Klaiman, just agree to disagree. I see disputes on SA resolved that way all the time.
The critics are persistent because of the lack of reasoned and transparent responses. The question in Kim's first e-mail here is a good one, yet you utterly fail to address it. The famous GOOG trade. Anybody who followed your advice lost 100%. You said at the time you could afford to take such a loss. Yet now you say you only lost 20%. How hard would it be to show your entry and exit and explain why you deviated from the advice given in the article. And why the story changes? If it's because you took a 100% loss and "rolled" it, that's really just two trades. I've heard from students who recited this scenario of an unproductive session, then you'd leave and come back having made some hugely successful trade. Never any specifics, though.
I want to believe in the Holy Grail. If the method you've devised is reliable and executable, it would be nice to have some rational guidance to it. But the lack of detailed responses plus the lashing out and prolonged feuding makes me feel you're an unreliable resource.
I think you are right, that Kim learned as he went. But he is an astute student who doesn't settle for half-baked answers. It doesn't surprise me that his persistence rubbed you the wrong way. I'm also surprised that he continues to feud with you. Perhaps there is a need to protect honor and correct misinformation, but at some point it might be best to just let you go and stew in your own juices. It's funny that you recently wrote a post that you've been too nice too long, because you just haven't been very nice at all. Calling people idiots and geniuses (sarcastically) - how is that nice?
Kim's is a legitimate and transparent service. You might be surprised to hear that it's not my cup of tea. My psyche requires a little more action and some bigger hits. But it's a staid approach, and "Steady Options" is a good name for it. The quality of the contributors, such as Mark Wolfinger, says something about the legitimacy of the service. I'm sure Mr. Wolfinger wouldn't lend his name to some fly-by-night approach.
Maybe we could learn something from you, Kevin, if you would settle down and focus on providing reasoned responses to people. There are many reasonable questions that you just fail to answer, perhaps because you perceive them as harassment. The question about line charts versus candlesticks is a good one. I am open - minded, and I still can't understand why you prefer line charts for short duration trades.
Kim brings up an interesting point about your disclaimer. Disclaimers are just that - legal gobbledygook. But it raises the question. Do you intend to share and discuss real-time trades on your service, or is it all theoretical? Why have you been unwilling to do that here? Since you do day trading, will there be a live real -time trading room or chat during market hours?
I choose to believe that you're a nice guy who just got bent out of shape by the stress brought on by the feuding on here. I hope you are being honest in portraying yourself as a successful trader. I would ask that we just call a truce, and rationally and reasonably answer questions as they come. If you have something to offer, then offer it.
You are really not misquoted. The things you're persistently asked about are things that you've said. If you were misunderstood or you mis-spoke, say so.
- Can and do you consistently make 24% a week day trading? You guaranteed two subscribers on here a $6,000 return on a $25,000 investment. Are you doing that yourself, week after week? If you are, why the reluctance at posting a week or twos sample trades? Even your supporters are starting to say it's because it simply can't be done. Why not just do it and show us?
- Why not more detail about controversial trades like the GOOG trade? How does it help your readers if you offer them a falling scenario without dissecting what went wrong or right with the trade? Why is it such a mystery about how exactly you handled that, and lost either 100% or 20% or whatever it was?
- if you trade successfully and occasional 100% losses are a part of your plan, why not a straight-forward explanation of your risk/reward strategy. I would take a100% loss if it's likely to be balanced by two 100% gains, but you haven't said that's what you're doing.
Anyway, it would be nice if you just dialed the feud back and if you want to be a mentor, then be one. If I were you and I were making 24% a week, I wouldn't even bother, so I'm not sure why you are. It could be you just have a generous spirit. If so, like all of us, I hope you progress to a kinder and better form of execution.
Gary
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It must be frustrating for you that every time you show up here you come under attack.
As one who has followed every post and every thread from start to finish, I must say that you have only yourself to blame. It's only natural that people have questions. A new reader might not be able to reconstruct the threads because of all the deletions. But the pattern with Kim and Dynamite were the same. They started with skepticism and questions and you replied with insults and evasiveness.
I've known Kim since long before these exchanges started (I introduced him to your articles on SA), and your insinuations that there is something sinister about him are ludicrous. Kim is an arduous options student and researcher and is very honest and transparent in his trading and his web service.
Dynamite has become a detractor of yours, but he didn't start out that way. If you don't recognize why you tend to make enemies on here, then I can't help you.
I'm not even sure why you are dinking around on here, stirring up and receiving all of this animosity if your trading results are anywhere close to what you represent. You say that Kim misquotes you, but I can attest that you've said everything he claims. Perhaps you feel it's taken out of context? If so, just say so. Are you saying that you can make 6K on 15K capital THIS week, but perhaps not every week?
If I were you, I'd do just that - make those kinds of profits - week after week, and forget all the animosity you run into on this site.
I think Kim and Dynamite feel like they are doing a public service in exposing some of your claims. I think they are right - a beginner could come along and read claims like this and go hog wild on your system. It's not asking much at all to answer simple questions and provide a week or two of real-time trading examples. You could still a lot of critics if you just did that. But you get this bristly response that it's nobody's business what you trade. That's true to a point, but when you're an author and the perpetrator or an expensive trading system, the normal course is to answer questions and provide examples. Why is that so hard?
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Dbas, you are familiar with "Trading In the Zone?" Those concepts might help you. The emphasis is on the discipline and planning part of trading rather than becoming a technical master. You do need to master some concepts. Those are simple. But it's still not easy because of the emotional turmoil we create. Trade in control. An under control trader with mediocre technical skills is more likely to be successful than an undisciplined technical genius.
As for Kevin, it's just become a soap opera. All these challenges and claims, then you ask for specific examples and you get these "none of your business" responses. At least on these forums. He gets rankled, then surly and hostile. It's a strange response for somebody selling something, where you'd think the PR aspect would be important.
But he's responded to my e-mails, Mike, and he'll probably respond to yours. So if you really want your questions answered, write him or call him.