Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
John, "Focusing on the sole source issue tells me they're farther along than most of us believe because a battery manufacturer won't screw around with forging a new technology partnership if the only carrot is a fleet test" Agreed. The more I think about it, the more I realize how much more important this announcement was than an announcement on fleet testing would have been. As it says in the 10Q, Axion has entered into a "New Phase", which I take to mean that they've moved beyond testing the battery and are now trying to put the things in place to meet BMW's production requirements. Yes, things could still go wrong with future fleet testing after that. Look at the HUB, they thought they had everything ready for roll out and now, 4 months later, we are hearing they are having problems with integration of the electronics. Or look at A123 and Chevy. They announced that they had a design win with Chevy for their Spark, and then found out that Chevy was only going to make a max of 2000 of them a year and sell them only in CA. That being said, the fact that BMW has gone to their battery supplier and said "we want this, please work with them to make it happen" is far more important to Axion than the results of more testing. As to who that battery manufacturer is, and in what country, I'm still hoping for one in the US that supplies the SC plant, since that would not require the building of a new line(s) somewhere else, along with training new workers, certifying the lines, and everything else that would be involved in a new facility in another country. BMW makes several of their hybrid lines in SC. To me, it just seems like an easier choice in the short run, to get all the kinks out.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
jveal, "We now know that one of the major hold ups with NSC is the lack of the contractor to come through with the battery racks. It may be that NSC will come out quickly and publicly once they are able to install the batteries"
We also know that NS, during all this wait time, has been doing mock testing on the batteries that were sent last Dec.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
SMaturin, Yes, that's my exact thought. We know they are in discussions with one major battery manufacturer for BMW, but TG said they were also talking to others. If the first company is in Europe, then either Axion has to worry about shipping electrodes across the sea, or setting up a new electrode facility in Europe. But if they are working with BMW's battery manufacturer for the plant in SC, then the shipping becomes a lot easier and we don't have a year to wait to get a new electrode facility up and running in Germany. So I'm still hoping for SC in the near future and Germany in the long term.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
John, I think you are correct, long term, but wonder if this will be done in stages? If I'm correct, that fleet testing won't be done until there is a contract with BMW's battery manufacturer, then I could see a process where they would ship electrodes from New Castle, in the short term for things like fleet testing, while working on opening an electrode facility in someone else's battery plant before you would go forward with a design win. IMHO
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
Ranma, "I don't know if fleet testing is dependent on a second supplier. What makes you think so?" TG's response to my question about the 3rd party testing said that the next stage in the process was getting past the "sole source" issue for battery manufacturing, and alluded to the fact that this was the reason why it was in the 10Q as the "New Phase" and not comments about fleet testing being the next step.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
D-inv, GM's involvement in the SBIR grant is another one of those "worse kept secrets" that is required, I'm assuming, by NDAs. Ever since Brainwish did his FOIA to find out that GM was the company on the original DOE grant application, we've know that they were working with GM on, what looks to be, a mild hybrid system. Unfortunately, I think that also means that, until the SBIR research is done, we won't be seeing this system on any of GMs vehicles in the next few model years.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
WTB, What he said was that Axion has finished all of its battery tests for the OTR engine but that PSU was continuing to do some. So you are both right! :-) And if I recall correctly, we have seen information in the past suggesting that PSU isn't just doing testing for NS using the PbC, but is also testing other batteries. So their continued testing could be part of that to show comparison data.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
HTL, I would agree with you, if the partner is a European battery maker or East Penn. If it's JCI or Exide, I think they will drag their feet to the bitter end, though I would think that BMW would know who's arm they could twist to get the batteries made in a reasonable time frame.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
Ranma, From what TG said in answer to my question, I would assume that we don't necessarily have a design "win" yet, but that they are planning to move forward with fleet testing, but only after Axion and the battery manufacturer come to an agreement, so that there is no longer a sole source issue. As IINDelco would say, this is just the way auto works and the pace they move at.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
WTB, True, but he also made it sound like they could have more contracts in this area if they wanted them. They seem to figure that making a gross profit of only 10%, or less, on FLAs isn't where they want to be. The fact that he was willing to name East Penn makes me think he's not worried about the contract going away any time soon.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
WTB, Yes, I was able to reschedule one of my experiments so I was in on the call. Got answers to some of my questions.
1) We know we will have an answer about the SBIR phase II application by late July. 2) We know that 3rd party testing is complete. Unfortunately, as I understood TG's response to my question, we also found out that BMW isn't moving forward with fleet testing until Axion has an agreement signed with the battery manufacturer they are in talks with. They are a couple months into the discussion, so the question will be how long will it take and, depending on who the manufacturer is, how much are they going to drag their feet on the process because they'd rather sell their own battery instead of the PbC? I should have asked more questions, but didn't want to monopolize the time, since it seemed we had a lot of callers from the new financing calling in, who obviously haven't read the APC, since they didn't understand the "standard risk disclosure" statement in the 10Q. I was happy to hear TG admit that the FLA battery contract was with East Penn. Like the work with BMW, it was one of those worst kept secrets, but it was good to see that he felt he could say their name now without repercussions.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
In case I don't get to call in tomorrow, I have some questions after reading the 10Q:
1) When does Axion find out if its phase II application has been funded for the SBIR grant? 2) Can Axion comment on who the industry partners are for the compatible vehicle systems collaboration or how long they've been working with them? 3) As I said above, what is the status of 3rd party testing for BMW and what is the status of fleet testing with BMW and others? 4) Any idea on a timeline for agreement with alternative battery manufacturer to meet OEM's effort to not have sole source provider of PbC? 5) As I asked above, can the larger batteries for start-stop in trucks be made with Axion current electrodes and battery lines or would the batteries need to be out sourced as well. 6) An information on APU systems in trucks? 7) Claiming 10x increase in PowerCube RFP and RFQ in first Q of 2013 as compared to 2012. Is that for 4th Q of 2012 or for full year? 8) Can Axion name the companies it has entered into a consortium with for offshore sales, or will they be able to in the future? 9) There is nothing in the report about HUB sales or prospects? Can Axion say anything about the status or interest in HUB sales?
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
John, Yes, I noticed it. Just haven't had time to read the whole thing, before now, and write down my questions. My favorite part was:
"Our application pointed out, as further evidence of our potential place in those markets, that we are in various stages of lab or field vehicle testing with these strategic partners" I would really like some comment on what stages of vehicle testing they are talking about?? We still haven't heard anything about whether the 3rd party testing for BMW is complete, but now we have vehicle testing? By whom and at what size??
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
Metro, Yes, I noticed that there was no comment about APU systems either. I see this as another one of Vani's assessments. He seems to know the truck industry well, knows where the PbC can fill a specific need that no one else can, and so is pushing these initiatives first. PbCs in an APU would be great, but there is already systems available that use other batteries. There really aren't other systems available for start-stop for trucks, or very few if that. My question is that it says that they need to produce bigger batteries for start-stop in trucks. I'm wondering, of the forms that they can already make in the factory do they have the lines to make these bigger batteries or would Axion need another battery manufacturer for this?
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
"Focusing on the sole source issue tells me they're farther along than most of us believe because a battery manufacturer won't screw around with forging a new technology partnership if the only carrot is a fleet test"
Agreed. The more I think about it, the more I realize how much more important this announcement was than an announcement on fleet testing would have been. As it says in the 10Q, Axion has entered into a "New Phase", which I take to mean that they've moved beyond testing the battery and are now trying to put the things in place to meet BMW's production requirements. Yes, things could still go wrong with future fleet testing after that. Look at the HUB, they thought they had everything ready for roll out and now, 4 months later, we are hearing they are having problems with integration of the electronics. Or look at A123 and Chevy. They announced that they had a design win with Chevy for their Spark, and then found out that Chevy was only going to make a max of 2000 of them a year and sell them only in CA. That being said, the fact that BMW has gone to their battery supplier and said "we want this, please work with them to make it happen" is far more important to Axion than the results of more testing.
As to who that battery manufacturer is, and in what country, I'm still hoping for one in the US that supplies the SC plant, since that would not require the building of a new line(s) somewhere else, along with training new workers, certifying the lines, and everything else that would be involved in a new facility in another country. BMW makes several of their hybrid lines in SC. To me, it just seems like an easier choice in the short run, to get all the kinks out.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
"We now know that one of the major hold ups with NSC is the lack of the contractor to come through with the battery racks. It may be that NSC will come out quickly and publicly once they are able to install the batteries"
We also know that NS, during all this wait time, has been doing mock testing on the batteries that were sent last Dec.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
Yes, that's my exact thought. We know they are in discussions with one major battery manufacturer for BMW, but TG said they were also talking to others. If the first company is in Europe, then either Axion has to worry about shipping electrodes across the sea, or setting up a new electrode facility in Europe. But if they are working with BMW's battery manufacturer for the plant in SC, then the shipping becomes a lot easier and we don't have a year to wait to get a new electrode facility up and running in Germany.
So I'm still hoping for SC in the near future and Germany in the long term.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
I think you are correct, long term, but wonder if this will be done in stages? If I'm correct, that fleet testing won't be done until there is a contract with BMW's battery manufacturer, then I could see a process where they would ship electrodes from New Castle, in the short term for things like fleet testing, while working on opening an electrode facility in someone else's battery plant before you would go forward with a design win. IMHO
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
"I don't know if fleet testing is dependent on a second supplier. What makes you think so?"
TG's response to my question about the 3rd party testing said that the next stage in the process was getting past the "sole source" issue for battery manufacturing, and alluded to the fact that this was the reason why it was in the 10Q as the "New Phase" and not comments about fleet testing being the next step.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
GM's involvement in the SBIR grant is another one of those "worse kept secrets" that is required, I'm assuming, by NDAs. Ever since Brainwish did his FOIA to find out that GM was the company on the original DOE grant application, we've know that they were working with GM on, what looks to be, a mild hybrid system. Unfortunately, I think that also means that, until the SBIR research is done, we won't be seeing this system on any of GMs vehicles in the next few model years.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
What he said was that Axion has finished all of its battery tests for the OTR engine but that PSU was continuing to do some. So you are both right! :-)
And if I recall correctly, we have seen information in the past suggesting that PSU isn't just doing testing for NS using the PbC, but is also testing other batteries. So their continued testing could be part of that to show comparison data.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
I would agree with you, if the partner is a European battery maker or East Penn. If it's JCI or Exide, I think they will drag their feet to the bitter end, though I would think that BMW would know who's arm they could twist to get the batteries made in a reasonable time frame.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
From what TG said in answer to my question, I would assume that we don't necessarily have a design "win" yet, but that they are planning to move forward with fleet testing, but only after Axion and the battery manufacturer come to an agreement, so that there is no longer a sole source issue. As IINDelco would say, this is just the way auto works and the pace they move at.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
True, but he also made it sound like they could have more contracts in this area if they wanted them. They seem to figure that making a gross profit of only 10%, or less, on FLAs isn't where they want to be. The fact that he was willing to name East Penn makes me think he's not worried about the contract going away any time soon.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
Yes, I was able to reschedule one of my experiments so I was in on the call. Got answers to some of my questions.
1) We know we will have an answer about the SBIR phase II application by late July.
2) We know that 3rd party testing is complete. Unfortunately, as I understood TG's response to my question, we also found out that BMW isn't moving forward with fleet testing until Axion has an agreement signed with the battery manufacturer they are in talks with. They are a couple months into the discussion, so the question will be how long will it take and, depending on who the manufacturer is, how much are they going to drag their feet on the process because they'd rather sell their own battery instead of the PbC?
I should have asked more questions, but didn't want to monopolize the time, since it seemed we had a lot of callers from the new financing calling in, who obviously haven't read the APC, since they didn't understand the "standard risk disclosure" statement in the 10Q.
I was happy to hear TG admit that the FLA battery contract was with East Penn. Like the work with BMW, it was one of those worst kept secrets, but it was good to see that he felt he could say their name now without repercussions.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
I did too, initially. But if you go back you will see that it is for the SBIR grant and therefore is for auto not trucking.
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
1) When does Axion find out if its phase II application has been funded for the SBIR grant?
2) Can Axion comment on who the industry partners are for the compatible vehicle systems collaboration or how long they've been working with them?
3) As I said above, what is the status of 3rd party testing for BMW and what is the status of fleet testing with BMW and others?
4) Any idea on a timeline for agreement with alternative battery manufacturer to meet OEM's effort to not have sole source provider of PbC?
5) As I asked above, can the larger batteries for start-stop in trucks be made with Axion current electrodes and battery lines or would the batteries need to be out sourced as well.
6) An information on APU systems in trucks?
7) Claiming 10x increase in PowerCube RFP and RFQ in first Q of 2013 as compared to 2012. Is that for 4th Q of 2012 or for full year?
8) Can Axion name the companies it has entered into a consortium with for offshore sales, or will they be able to in the future?
9) There is nothing in the report about HUB sales or prospects? Can Axion say anything about the status or interest in HUB sales?
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
Yes, I noticed it. Just haven't had time to read the whole thing, before now, and write down my questions. My favorite part was:
"Our application pointed out, as further evidence of our potential place in those markets, that we are in various stages of lab or field vehicle testing with these strategic partners"
I would really like some comment on what stages of vehicle testing they are talking about?? We still haven't heard anything about whether the 3rd party testing for BMW is complete, but now we have vehicle testing? By whom and at what size??
Axion Power Concentrator 236: May 15: Axion Power Releases Quarterly Report For The First Quarter 2013 [View instapost]
Yes, I noticed that there was no comment about APU systems either. I see this as another one of Vani's assessments. He seems to know the truck industry well, knows where the PbC can fill a specific need that no one else can, and so is pushing these initiatives first. PbCs in an APU would be great, but there is already systems available that use other batteries. There really aren't other systems available for start-stop for trucks, or very few if that.
My question is that it says that they need to produce bigger batteries for start-stop in trucks. I'm wondering, of the forms that they can already make in the factory do they have the lines to make these bigger batteries or would Axion need another battery manufacturer for this?