Randall Arnold

The Disastrous Future of the U.S.

Thomas F, just more irony from you. I did speak too simply (for your sake) in referring to Antarctica as a polar desert-- that is actually only true for large portions. My apologies for misleading you; it was not intentional. Yes, ice does accumulate in some areas-- hence the Vostok ice core which (if you look at the full chart and not the one that pollute-at-all-cost propagandists edit to fit their agenda) you can see indicates a HUGE rise in CO2 correlating with the advent of the Industrial Age. Yes, correlation does not automatically mean causation BUT in this case the correlation is too strong to blithely dismiss as you ostriches would do.

So your counterargument turns out to be a straw man. If you were able to stick to the true problem, ie, the melt rate and collapsing glaciers, and then approach the subject objectively, you'd recognize the impending danger.

And sivere, you are falling for the same pseudoscientific propaganda as Thomas F. It is impossible for man not to at least *contribute* toward global warming given the changes we have wrought over the centuries, especially the last 3. When you replace natural mechanisms involved in the regulation of climate (such as massive forest tracts) with highways and urbanized areas on the massive scale that we do, you impact climate. To disregard our deep and wide impact is disingenuous... but I realize it makes many people feel more comfortable about their short-term thinking and net-wasteful lifestyles.

The Disastrous Future of the U.S.

"Fabricator one question, if the Geenland ice sheet has melted and the North Pole has melted and the sea has not risen, where did the water go? "

I did not say it had completely melted, Thomas-- please read more carefully and thoughtfully if you intend to participate in the discussion.

I alluded to the melt RATE increasing, a phenomenon that has even conservative scientists worried. The rate increase in the past few years alone is alarming. But instead of asking ME all the questions, here's a better idea: go to the SOURCE.

Also, sea levels HAVE risen; it's well documented. Some islanders have been evacuated due to encroachment of ocean water into freshwater supplies. However, due to the earth's irregular shape, as well as tides and other factors, the distribution is not even, so some areas don't experience the same rise. In addition, so far it hasn't been what we would term catastrophic in general.

Finally, you're flat wrong about south pole ice. Antarctica is a polar desert-- there has been no accumulation of ANY precipitation in a long, long time. And in recent years, a huge ice shelf broke off and disintegrated, which in anyone's book is a LOSS of ice. And after the shelf detached, the glacier behind it began creeping into the sea. If you truly understood this subject, you'd recognize why that is Not A Good Thing.

If you're serious about knowing what's going on, educate yourself. Otherwise, I suggest you avoid embarassing yourself with uninformed observations. Just a thought.

The Disastrous Future of the U.S.

Pent-up demand blathered inanely: "You chastise my "naivete" while refusing to acknowledge that the so-called solutions proffered for climate change will wreck the world economy"

I didn't acknowledge it because your premise is utterly false.

But I'll entertain your silly notion. What will actually "wreck the economy" is the ignorance and inaction displayed by you ostriches. A dramatic shift in climate, despite the causes, will do far more damage than any proactive change in lifestyle. Your unsustainable status quo is at risk, man... wake up. The time to adapt was decades ago, but people with your quaint and out-of-step mindset held us back. Now is certainly not the time to dither.

All hell is just short of breaking loose. Do you propose massive shopping at Wal-mart as the solution? Personally I see it to be more sensible energy choices (particularly thermodynamic), more sensible design approaches (solar cells on shallow rooftops make more sense than high-pitched wasteful roofs decked with shingles) and more emphasis on reuse/recycling/reduct... than pell-mell lemming-like consumption.

Feel free, though, to spout further inanities. That's your right. ; )

The Disastrous Future of the U.S.

Thomas F said: "Now a word on the “sky is falling…” argument. The glaciers in Greenland have melted? The North Pole will melt this summer? It is July"

Um, Thomas? You may be up to speed on statistical analysis as a science, but do yourself a favor and look deeper into the science of climatology (as well as physics and geology)-- especially vis-a-vis Greenland's melting glaciers. Hint: we're not talking about the results of a typical hot month here. Your comment doesn't even approach the neighborhood of the actual problem.

Do your research. THEN opine. That's just common sense, bud.

The Disastrous Future of the U.S.

Regarding mdmrjsds' disingenuous comments about CO2: first, Tom B is correct again that the "whys" don't matter to an extent-- we are ill-prepared (at best) for the naturally disastrous consequences of massive ice melt. Second, Antarctic ice cores show an undeniable direct correlation between long-cycle historic climate cycles and CO2 concentration. Now, of course we all know correlation does not necessarily mean causation but the link is indisputable. If nothing else, CO2 goes along for the ride. But to dispute your assumptions, the latest evidence does indeed point to CO2 as a significant contributor to retained heat.

As to pent-up demand's naive blathering: forget models, okay? Even those of us who recognize the reality of global warming understand that, despite their actual scientific value, they are imperfect. Again, use your own powers of observation and reasoning (I'm giving you some benefit of the doubt) and cogitate over what things like the massive (and escalating) Greenland ice melt mean. These processes were considered linear until even conservative scientists had to begrudgingly accpet the latest data: the change is anything but. Brace yourself-- climate change doesn't care if you're educated or not, and it's gonna be an equal opportunity pain in the ass. Unless you live on Mount Everest, maybe.

Oh, and as for energy: solar, tidal and wind are great for starters, but let's get serious about geothermal. It's basically free energy, baby, and it's more useful and available than many suspect. Even in the US.

The Disastrous Future of the U.S.

Heck, Tom, I find the profit-at-ALL-costs quarter-by-quarter hypercapitalists to be scarier than any Stalinist.

Moderation in all things... well, those within our control anyway. ; )

The Disastrous Future of the U.S.

Actually, Tom B is right on target. Anyone who t this point still doesn't get it is either napping or gulping the Faux News Kool-Aid.

For a real eye-opener, quit drinking at the fount of ignorance and get acquainted with the Greenland glacier melt and its implications for the next few decades... then brace yourselves for the indifferent reality Tom mentioned.