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Will Nokia Phones Make A Comeback In 2015?

Jacob Steinberg profile picture
Jacob Steinberg
2.07K Followers

Last week, Nokia (NYSE:NOK) shocked a lot of people by selling its handheld devices business to Microsoft (MSFT) for $5 billion (plus $2 billion to license Nokia's patents for 10 years). The agreement between Microsoft and Nokia says that Nokia will not be able to use its brand name on any phones until 2015. Also, Nokia will not allow Microsoft to use Nokia's logo on any of its smartphones. Microsoft is only allowed to use the Nokia logo on feature phones.

While many people in Finland are almost mourning the news that Nokia phones are going to be history, the nature of the agreement between Microsoft and Nokia tells me that Nokia is definitely not done with the business of making phones. Let's think about it for a second, if Nokia was completely done with the idea of building phones forever, it would let Microsoft use its logo on smartphones and the agreement wouldn't have limited Nokia's usage of its own logo on its phones for only 2 years. The agreement could have said "Nokia will not be able to use its logo on its phones ever again," but it says "Nokia will not be able to use its logo on its phones until the end of 2015." This is loud and clear.

Since Nokia will be able to start making smartphones under its name after 2015, I expect the company to take advantage of this. We don't know who Nokia's CEO will be by then, but this may change a lot of things. If Nokia's new CEO has the same mindset as Stephen Elop, Nokia will continue to stick to Windows Phone ecosystem. If the new CEO is more open to use another operating system such as Android, we may see the company launching several phones in multiple operating systems. Of course, since Microsoft now has so much

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Jacob Steinberg profile picture
2.07K Followers

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Comments (127)

CyberAngel profile picture
So Nokia sold everything (sans patents) related to phones to MS
Now people think they could start from zero
(while they couldn't perform with the team)
w/o the engineering, but with the same professional leadership...
I mean really?
While this is all entertaining there must be a limit to everything
including fantasy and daydreaming
Redrut profile picture
strongly agree here CA
a
Even Nokia doesn't care if they ever make another phone again. I think Nokia will be bought out down the line for what it has retained. Agree with Andreas, that losing the Nokia brand is a huge loss for MSFT. Good luck to Mr. Softie marketing MS Lumias outside the US. Long Nokia, long MSFT (but not because of their device strategy).
mitrado profile picture
"Since Nokia will be able to start making smartphones under its name after 2015, I expect the company to take advantage of this."

I think they leave that possibility open but I seriously doubt they'll want to go back there. Smartphones ASP is lowering every quarter. Every month that passes it's more difficult for a smartphone vendor to make profits.

Who knows how things will be 2 years from now?
Andreas Hopf profile picture
You don't have to wait two years. Seen during IFA last week: $60 Android smartphones and tablets from China. People buy these things.
solucky profile picture
The OS looks pretty cool, but dont know if Android apps run smooth.
Andreas Hopf profile picture
The design is not thought through. The gap between the two shapes picks up pocket lint and dirt and catches on things when in a bag or satchel. Two shot moulding expensive. Pastel green is late 80s.
f
Leont
Hahaha . Yes something like that .
Here another one . Price is 500$. Thinking of getting one .

http://bit.ly/1fMj9KR
Randal James profile picture
Contrarian thought of the day

It has nagged me that MSFT waited until their contribution to Nokia was about equal to the license fees they should have been getting in return for using the Windows OS. The $2.75B MS injection was a generous subsidy for helping update the modernity of the phones.

But during the term of the arrangement, Samsung surely came in and pounced on Android in a big way. Google must be both happy and mortified by this result because Android is getting carved and rendered useless in the fastest growing markets; filled with potential malware that has not troubled iOS or Win.

IF you were one of the guppies in this larger pond, how would you feel about Apple and Samsung's positions, knowing you were just tagging along in Samsung's wake?

The case was offered up time and again for Nokia making a switch to Android. What if MSFT dropped the license fee entirely and allowed anyone onto 8.1? I'd lock it down so it couldn't be chopped up as the Asians have with Android, but would you rather be competing against MSFT's Nokia or Samsung and the ZTE's? There are some big traditional names in play here, including HTC, Sony and Panasonic. In which OS market would you make the most headway?

MSFT want Windows Mobile users and whether they are nearly all in-house or scattered in a half-dozen brands is not as important as overall share. I'd say string the 'Welcome!' banner over the door and invite the disciples back to dinner.
f
Well there is this Jolla startup mentioned by Jacob formed by Nokia ex employees in 2011 , as a result of Elop killing the N9 . They are compatible with android Apps but the OS Sailfish is much better then Android and they launched I think in Europe and China . Looks very promising but is a very small venture 80 employees . With no much capital . Nokia could invest in them may be 10 to 20 millions , if they are successful with small volume . Some sort of try and see .

http://bit.ly/1e4Yw10
Leont68 profile picture
kind of trying to hook up with a ex gf?
f
I may be wrong but I think MSFT will be able if they want to to sell existing models of lumia , f.e the 920 , or 520 with Nokia brand name on it or else they would have to recall all the phones . However for the new phones released under MFST ownership , they can't use the name Nokia but only on smartphones .
gwynfryn profile picture
Wrong way around, fly!
CyberAngel profile picture
Lumia
N
Sweeter lol
N
The Nokia share price had exceeded $4 for quite some time just recently although it had dipped below $4 just prior to the MSFT acquisition announcement.

Many people were expecting the Lumia line to sell close to 10 million units Q3 13. Perhaps 12 million units Q4 13 being a holiday season. So would not the D&S division have been profitable circa Q2 or Q3 14.

Nokia had approx. 3 billion net cash and several undrawn lines of credit going forward so they weren't in imminent risk of default.

Many people in this forum had predicted the share price would have hit $5 by Christmas anyway.

So I still wander what the advantage is in selling the D&S business now?

If however the share price were to reach $10 by Christmas well yes that would seem like a good deal.

But at the current share price around $5.37 I'm still wandering why the BOD has decided to sell?

There were several unforeseen events that precipitated this deal.

Siemens decision to sell it's part of NSN and Nokia's decision to acquire that part put pressure on Nokia's financial position and resulted in a downgrading of it's credit rating.

Then with Mr Balmer's departure from MSFT the door opened for Mr Elop to jump ship so to speak. It would seem Stephen is taking half the Nokia china with him.

I wonder whether the deal might get a little sweater yet?
Randal James profile picture
mKiwi

A slight misspelling on the last line gives me an opening that comes along all too rarely.

Nokia tested a sweater such as you describe but it was unpopular in equatorial climates and among generally sociable individuals.

http://bit.ly/1eqQ9dG
DWD Investing profile picture
Nokia will only make phones again if Nokia can make more profit from them with the same cash input than it can with NSN, HERE, and it's new tech department. The same holds true for the rubber boots it made. Nokia isn't emotionally attached to cell phones. It was a great thing in the 90s and early 2000s. Not so much now.

Better to develop, produce, and dominate what runs the cell phones.
Toastypro profile picture
"The agreement between Microsoft and Nokia says that Nokia will not be able to use its brand name on any phones until 2015." Also, Nokia will not allow Microsoft to use Nokia's logo on any of its smartphones. Microsoft is only allowed to use the Nokia logo on feature phones."
It brings an interesting point why MS is allowed to sell Nokia brand phones only in Asha product lines until 2015. The Nokia brand valuation must have been the sticking point for the deal since Nokia only got ⅓ of valuation based on the Best consumer brand studied by Interbrand in 2012. Nokia may have intended to come back to consumer space after the contract period is over. Perhaps, there is another agreement to turn over the Asha line back to Nokia in 2016 and Nokia wants the brand name to exist in consumer space during this time. It is clearly visible since MS only wants WP smartphone with Nokia’s patents and Here IP which MS got with licensing deal and not wanting the feature phones, not only that Nokia name is only on the feature phone, why? I think this is a backdoor strategy for Nokia, so Nokia can come back with better mobile products whether it is a phone, wearable devices or future navigation or communication devices integrating HERE and other IP. I guess it is anybody’s guess, but I think Nokia left the door open for the future products in mobile space.

For Nokia many important key points were accomplished with MS deal:
1) Nokia brand survives in consumer space
2) Stronger financial position with Increase in cash
3) HERE was kept in house
4) Concentrate in NSN for next two years
5) Gain precious time to formulate future corporate strategy and develop next generation breakthrough products. It could be based on Symbian, MeeGo, Chrome, Firefox, Android, Tizen.
6) Keep most patent portfolio
7) Free from the contractual obligations with MS and get rid of a mole
slcUTAH profile picture
Nokia should stay away from making phones. Too much competition and too much overhead. If it's bad now with global saturation of smartphones in 2015 it will be worse. Nokia needs to offer software and services to smartphone companies. They can earn much more money.

On the day after MS announced it was acquiring Nokia's D and S departments an ex- employee of Nokia- based out of Singapore- filed NEWKIA. His mission is to recruit Nokia employees and build smartphones. This person tried to buy Nokia (not sure if the whole company or just the D and S parts) last year but could not raise enough money.

-Cheers.
j
I don't understand how on earth Nokia can rest its brand in phones business. Brand itself should be worth a lot. Two years from now - who knows.. I don't believe it, not yet, too early to make such guesses. A lot can happen in two years both within new Nokia and externally.
s
Human nature is you don't sell your house until you have another place to live. Who knows what new products or concepts are going on in the engineer department. The 2 year exclusion period seems to me both companies may think the phones in their present form won't be around much longer.
F
Nokia will likely make and market its own phones in 2015. This view is supported by the following facts. The original WP agreement with Microsoft will terminate in 2014.The new acquisition agreement states that Nokia will be able to market phones under its own brand in 2015. So that's highly likely Nokia will become a phone company again in 2015. But we don't know in what shape or form.

In terms of attracting design staff, it would not be difficult for the new Nokia to hire some employees back. I assume the more senior Nokia people would be given new employment contracts with Microsoft, but not everyone would want to work for a giant in the US. So that's not a critical issue.
f
Forever young . It is 2016 actually . 1rst Jan 2016 .
n
Nokia have no long term benefit to be with msft . nokia will come back independently with something new , wearable device or something we don t known yet but smart phone will not be the device to talk about any more in 2015 . in order to be susessful one must control both hardware and software . Nokia will come back . $7 billion is so cheap but the Xiaomi company only start with $250 million just two years ago and it is now a $ 10 billion company . Nokia device will not die , it is trans forming to something much better . long nokia .
C
I have used Nokia phones before and like them for the design and quality. In fact, I was looking to upgrade to either 920 or 1020.

Nokia can still stay in the smartphone game between now and 2016. They can just hire a small design team and do design and business scenario exercise and planning. This does not cost a lot. I doubt Microsoft can prevent them from doing this.

If Nokia should decide to go back into the smartphone game, they can outsource the actual manufacturing just like Apple and a whole bunch other phone manufacturers. Just need to have good quality assurance and control team at the factories.

Late to the game does not mean one cannot get in the game. All Nokia needs is good design and good pricing. Just look at Xiaomi of China. They came from nowhere 3 years ago and are now selling some 20 millions units in 2013. By the way, Xiaomi was founded by ex-Googlers. Their designs look good and prices are almost half of those equivalents offered by Samsung and others. Lenovo is another one.

I hope Nokia comes back to the smartphone and tablet industry. In the meantime, I wish them all the best.
Randal James profile picture
Nice to see, as usual, everyone in agreement....

Plenty of time for Samsung to become the most too common brand on the face of the earth or Apple to fail to excite for 2 more year's worth of introductions. Plenty of time for the young Chinese companies to claw each other to near-death and out of capital, for Amazon's 'free' phone to become a stunning hit, lowering everyone's margins as they try to retain business.

In short, while most of us could easily say what Nokia ought to be doing right now, the further we try to project that out into the future we become more like inebriated sportscasters than careful and rational investors.

2016 is the next presidential election in the United States. Who is the Republican nominee? Some might speculate on who they think a front-runner is, but there is soooooo much time for someone to shoot themselves in the foot, have a marriage scandal, take bribes (and get caught) that speculation is to darn soon.

Same with NOK. They have not yet even opened Forrest Gump's box of chocolates.
f
Good Article Jacob

Still trying to analyse what happened ..

Lets analyse two Gartner projections made in 2011 and then in 2013

http://bit.ly/19tBJpE

http://bit.ly/19tBKtH

From 20% WP market share in 2015 to 10% in 2017 . Huge difference . In my opinion what Nokia and Gartner IDC did is a strategic mistake of monumental proportion by failing to see the huge growth of Android . That even percolated to their feature phones .

What I do not understand is why they tied up with Microsoft when they had a fantastic product called the Nokia N9 , and when they could have entered in talks with Google to access their Google store , paying some royalties . If I recall Nokia had 9 billions USD cash when Elop joined . Once tied up with MFST they were handcuffed , see comments by Elop

http://engt.co/19tBKtI

Here on the N9 , running Meego . Gorgeous .

http://bit.ly/19tBKJW

On a new Nokia producing phone , first Nokia has to be successful at their remaining divisions . If they are , I see some sort of joint venture or consortium , All Europeans I hope , Nokia won't go alone , to produce phones , if the market is still open , which remains uncertain. Something like Sony Ericsson .
Alcatel has phones for example so there is a synergy if you are in mobile infrastructure . And Nokia left the door open , though barely , to this eventuality by keeping patents and Here with them . I hope Nokia BOD will fund with a few millions USD the team at Meego , Jolla , Sailfish , whatever it is . But in terms of technology 1 Jan 2016 is still a long way to go . As i said we have a new Nokia now and first they must generate value
Andreas Hopf profile picture
Nokia was approached by Google http://aol.it/19uf8Jw as well as Microsoft in 2011. Now, I have my problems with Google as a citizen and from the ethical side, but that Google talked at a high level with Nokia shows that in 2010, Google knew that of course by way of sheer brand pull and highly internationalised consumer attachment, Nokia would have done well competing with Samsung.

Remember that Samsung's initial success was to pose as "the Apple alternative", copying Apple's design. While I actually like WP's GUI approach very much, I would believe taken Nokia's talent, it would alternatively have succeeded to fork their version of Android and skin it it a much better way than Samsung did, integrating Nokia's in-house apps and camera technology.

Seeing the small but noticeable successes of LG and Sony in Android space (cf. Q2 Gartner/IDC and projection as well as IFA buzz), this is telling me that probably now Samsung has assumed Apple's place and consumers are fairly keen on a Samsung alternative in Android space. And, that alternative could have been Nokia.

Anyway. That was then and this is now.
f
Yes . Here are some remarks by shareholders to Stephen Elop at the last Nokia AGM I quote :
You're a nice guy…and the leadership team is doing its best, but clearly, it's not enough," shareholder Hannu Virtanen told Elop, according to Reuters. "Are you aware that results are what matter? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Please switch to another road.”
The Wall Street Journal noted that another shareholder “asked Mr. Elop why Samsung is achieving what the investor characterized as 10 times better results than Nokia.”

"Elop didn't seem to have an answer ."

Well as long as it was a Nokia adventure , I tried to defend them , while becoming quite worried about the losses in features phones . But now that it's a Ballmer company I really don't care . Only good things that Elop did was to negotiate an exit that saves Nokia financially . Wondering what Nokia BOD next initiative will be ? Open a winter sport boutique in Riyad ?
wiesje profile picture
well it would have been difficult for Elop to say

" my former employer is looking to buy you Guys out on the cheap and once that's done , i am moving back over there to run the whole show "

- but consider this and I am a Dutch share holder in Nokia, without MSFT Nokia would have gone bankrupt and the only use for my share-certificates would have been either wall-paper or toilet-paper -
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