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What In God's Name Is The Herbalife Long Thesis At $95 Per Share?

Mar. 06, 2018 12:14 PM ETHerbalife Ltd. (HLF)338 Comments
Quoth the Raven profile picture
Quoth the Raven
8.1K Followers

Summary

  • Ackman has capitulated and is out of the Herbalife trade, Icahn has declared victory on a nationally televised CNBC interview.
  • Scott Wapner did not ask Icahn the only relevant question going forward; whether he would tender into the Dutch Auction.
  • All things being equal, what's the long thesis here?

OK, so what in God's name is the Herbalife (NYSE:HLF) long thesis at nearly $100 per share?

As I said on my most recent podcast, I have gotten the trade in Herbalife wrong for the last four or five years. I openly admit that.

The facts are a different question - I still believe my facts and assertions about the company’s business model are accurate and I believe my opinion was found to objectively be correct by the Federal Trade Commission. Here's a photo of me when FTC Chair Edith Ramirez made the baffling (and in my opinion spineless) statement that the company was "not found to not be a pyramid".

There is no doubting that there is nothing that’s going change the fact that, for the trade, Carl Icahn beat down Bill Ackman. He used his leverage and his knowhow to engineer a squeeze and, accordingly, took his recent victory lap on CNBC in this interview.

The five year battle is essentially over for those keeping score in terms of the trade in terms of optics - Icahn and Herbalife won. Now Scott Wapner can stay friends with both guys and can go out and try to sell books.

So where does that leave us today? With the name dropping out of the mainstream, what does the investment thesis look like going forward? Rather than try to list 1 million reasons why I think the company is a good short here (stop me if you've heard this one), I want to instead push the question of what the long thesis is at this point.

I have stated publicly on Twitter that I expect the stock to move slightly higher before moving lower again. After the completion of the company's last Dutch Tender offer, shares moved up in accordance

This article was written by

Quoth the Raven profile picture
8.1K Followers
This page and all of its contributor content is operated by Quoth the Raven Research, LLC. Please read this disclaimer first and foremost: https://quoththeravenresearch.com/disclaimerterms-of-service/ Quoth the Raven is Christopher Irons from Philadelphia, PA. Commentary by QTR has been featured in Barron's, the Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, Yahoo Finance, Reuters, Bloomberg and many other financial outlets. QTR is a speaker at numerous financial conferences annually. QTR was named to Benzinga's "10 Financial Twitter Names to Follow in 2018" and in late 2017 was named to Forbes' "Top 100 Twitter Accounts for Finance". In 2016, QTR's work was selected as a finalist for the Sohn Investment Conference Idea Contest. In 2014, he was named to Seeking Alpha's Top List of Best Performing Financial Bloggers and was TipRanks' #6 Performing Financial Blogger (Out of 4,000+). View QTR's track record on TipRanks: https://www.tipranks.com/bloggers/quoth-the-raven View QTR's website: http://www.quoththeravenresearch.com View QTR's Twitter: https://twitter.com/QTRResearch Listen to the QTR podcast: http://quoththeraven.podbean.com All content contained herein is bound to both Seeking Alpha's terms of service, as well as the terms of service found here: https://quoththeravenresearch.com/disclaimerterms-of-service/

Analyst’s Disclosure: I/we have no positions in any stocks mentioned, but may initiate a short position in HLF over the next 72 hours. I wrote this article myself, and it expresses my own opinions. I am not receiving compensation for it (other than from Seeking Alpha). I have no business relationship with any company whose stock is mentioned in this article.

Seeking Alpha's Disclosure: Past performance is no guarantee of future results. No recommendation or advice is being given as to whether any investment is suitable for a particular investor. Any views or opinions expressed above may not reflect those of Seeking Alpha as a whole. Seeking Alpha is not a licensed securities dealer, broker or US investment adviser or investment bank. Our analysts are third party authors that include both professional investors and individual investors who may not be licensed or certified by any institute or regulatory body.

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Comments (338)

Z
If you were CEO of a big company would you let a 25% shareholder run the show? Could you stop him? How much say is he entitled to?

It's nice to book a $2.50 profit on paper for a change. ( I start over on the accounting each day.. if I don't like my chances from that point, I get out).

Cramer would tell you to evaluate each stock based on whether you are up or down on that single investment. Rubbish if deversification is not the issue. All money managers would rather have you be moderately successful on each stock and avoid any of them losers. They don't want you dumping them. That's why most will 'go with the flow' so if the market tanks, they can tell you that you are in good company.
For example, say you've doubled your money in HLF, Cramer will tell you 'pigs get slaughtered' and to sell some, then play 'with the house's money' so you won't be a net loser.
What are you supposed to do with the money from your sale? Find something else to buy, of course. What if you are an expert on HLF and cannot find a better investment than where the price is now? According to Cramer, you're supposed to buy a stock with lesser chances going forward. Stupid if you are right, yet you'll still wtune in to Cramer. Few people will do the math later to see how much they left on the table.
HLF Friend 1 profile picture
It depends on your idea of fair value ... There is a lot of M&A in MLM right now .. When Herbalife returns to 15-20% growth rates and Expand their Product Lines ...20x seems fair and Carl Knows it that is why he is reducing the float
Z
I just now Googled "MLM M&A" and "MLM Mergers" and came up empty (old stories written several years ago). Please tell us about the current merger activity in the MLM industry.
Z
How about some predictions: Will HLF raise the price per share they will pay so as to spend another 600mm? Will they need to?
What if the price stays above 108 and they don't raise the offer? Isn't that a sign of no confidence? Isn't that the wrong message, or do they want to spend that money on shares at any price?
Z
Given enough time, all stocks are good shorts. Think about it:
GE, GM, Kodak, Sears... all top names your Grandpa put away for you to inherit.
So when and at what price does HLF become a successful short? Pick a year and a price.
simplevalue274 profile picture
Emotion and anger are bad in investing and short sellers have high doses of both. Just been dead wrong on this one. how has he developed a reputation as a good short seller w this horrible call? saw his notes from the tilson conference. Now he is waxing about the fed and gold and rigged mkts. modern day snake oil salesman.
HLF Friend 1 profile picture
Historical Growth for Herbalife is 15-20% ... What will the PE be then ?
V
Growth is measured by sales, not by a debt-ridden, highly manipulated stock price.
D
"What In God's Name Is The Herbalife Long Thesis At $110 Per Share?"

There updated.

110.00 USD +3.71 (3.50%)
Z
ZZ
29 Apr. 2018
I'm short, not long, so I don't think I'll bug the broker about it. Just wondering why they would set the range of the tender offer where they did if they thought the earnings (which come out first) were going to move the needle much. The stock price was in the middle of this range when they announced it. But why time it closely after earnings? Anybody think guidance will be anything but Rosy?

Anybody think Ichan and his 24% ownership can be influential enough to get management to hock the company to run up the price temporarily? Are they all planning an exit? Is anybody? Have they been drinking the shakes and believe the company is going to grow now that Ackman has quit the opposition?
Old Analyst profile picture
zz...

All good questions...

As to running up the price as a way to do exit... I just don't believe that concept. Mostly, because it's totally impractical. They could never sell on the open market, regardless of the price. The only way I believe they could sell would be on a giant block trade, and that would happen at a huge discount. But, mostly, think about who coule possibly be on the buy side of any trade at all. I start with the premise that anyone who bought stock or the company would do it make money and anyone doing that would need to be ultra-sophisticated given the size of the theoretical transaction. Who could possibly pull that off? I think it could only be a strategic buyer, who might want the whole company. Or it might be another private equity firm. I can't imagine any other category of buyer. If that were to happen, from the point of view of any outside investor -- the current giant institutions or any individual investor -- the new owners would be an "Icahn equivalent"; i.e. a sophisticated investor or group of investors who have some sort of plan to make themselves, and any other longs, a gazillion dollars. Who else would be a buyer in that kind of size?

As to the timing of the offer... I admit I don't understand the strategy of what they are doing or the reason they just extended the offer by a week. I can think of several positive and negative reasons, but I don't have conviction in any of them. We'll know the answer in a very short time.

BTW...

1. If you haven't seen it, you might take a look at HLF's recent Investor Presentation. It's on their website. I'm not sure exactly where it was presented, but I'm sure it was to sophisticated institutions. It gives a very different impression from what is constantly discussed here on SA. Of course, any reader can make of it what he wants.

2. As some readers know, I've been fascinated by Bill Ackman ever since I first heard about him in Dec 2012 when he launched his HLF attack. I've studied all the public history I could find, built my own impressions, etc. I've written an enormous amount of stuff about him, all on the PSHZF board. My most recent article dissects why Pershing Square is falling apart. ANYWAY, that's introduction to Scott Wapner's new book, "When the Wolves Bite". I'm mostly finished and I love it! To me, at least, it's a real page turner, mostly because I know so much about the topic and the book fills in details I didn't know at all. Personally, it reminds me of other Wall Street books I've read when I've known most of the story before I read the book -- books such as "The Money Game", "Barbarians at the Gate", "When Genius Failed", "Den of Thieves" and others. If you are interested in more of the inside story of Ackman, Icahn, Michael, Johnson and all of HLF, it is a must read. Relatedly, Wapner includes both Carl Icahn's and Bill Ackman's personal and Wall street histories. It's my opinion that if those two profiles and histories had been published before the HLF battle, people thinking about following Ackman into the short would have thought much harder before doing it.
icahn1 profile picture
thanks OA
Z
ZZ
28 Apr. 2018
I should have said the current buyback May 16. If the stock price goes over 108 after earnings and before the buyback, what then? If I already agreed to tender my shares, can I change my mind (or change the price I tender at)?
Old Analyst profile picture
ZZ...

Serious question you ask. I am not planning on tendering any of my stock. I own a lot for an individual, but my position size relative to daily trading is insignifcant and I can sell anytime. BUT, my belief is you can change the amount of stock you want to sell into the tender and the price you're willing to accept anytime up to just prior to the expiration. I have nol idea about the mechanics of doing that. If you are really interested and can't get a good answer from your own broker, I get emails routinely from mine reminding me of the offer and asking if I want to tender. I haven't read them as I don't plan to tender.
Z
ZZ
28 Apr. 2018
So what happens if they beat on earnings tand the stock hits 110? Increase the amount they will pay for their buybacks?
D
Once business returns to its normal growth, they will no longer buy back. In fact, they can release float into the market and make a very nice profit. Or if they go private, it won't matter. ZZ, the stock will be close to $120 if they beat estimates like they have in the past. My on the street research shows a healthy rebound in sales volume.
V
"Once business returns to its normal growth"

Because it hasn't seen normal growth, and in fact has been experiencing decreases, is exactly the reason why its current price is artificially high.
D
http://bit.ly/2HrmJ6F

Will HLF continue to beat it's EPS. Seems to be an emerging trend. And usually EPS estimates are figured into the stock price at some level. Looking for $120.
V
Reducing the number of shares by acquiring more debt is like using a credit card to make mortgage payments. Sure your bank account balance looks great....until the credit statement arrives in the mail.
Jeffjacobjames profile picture
QTR and other antis, HLF stock reached an all-time high today trading over $105! Why do Wall Street investors ignore all your "issues" about this stock?
D
"What in God's name is the long thesis at $105.86". I wonder if QTR could tie a java app to the HLF stock price so it could just update in real time while he continues to repeat the same old issues that haven't affected HLF to this point. Wait till $120 :). Big earnings beat yet again IMO.

105.86 USD +2.56 (2.48%)
V
Sales continue to fall......in spite of such gamesmanship? And they're only trying to correct the problem now? Seems the full effects of the injunction have not even kicked in yet, or any effects for that matter. The fun is just beginning; http://bit.ly/2F05iEd
D
"What in God's name is the long thesis at $104.26". $110 next? Shorts are continuing to exit ahead of the upcoming earnings call and by all of my research it will be a beat and the beginning of the climb north of $5B per year as smart investors continue to buy in. Look for some institutional buying now that Ackman has even given up his "end of the earth" mantra. Although $4B per year in revenue is a great company and watch HLF begin to show why they did the buybacks as the shorts continue to provide shareholder returns for the next couple quarters combined with the company rebounding quite easily.

HLF 104.26 USD +1.21 (1.17%)
V
So HLF will beat a goal which fundamentally is lower than the goals of 4 years ago? This only proves HLF is a giant empty balloon of hype.
V
Declining fundamentals while the rest of the market is having up fundamentals is exactly the reason why HLF has nowhere to go but down. Or could it be they discovered a new product about to be released.....after spending $0 in R & D the last 4 years?
Z
ZZ
17 Apr. 2018
That reminds me of when I used to work for Atari. Warner bought the company in the height of the 1st video game craze (Atari 2600, late 1970's)). All they did for several years was hire artists to design great looking packaging, not make better games. Atari went bust, and video games went bust until Nintendo introduced new technology with the NES.

HLF has done a name change to Herbalife Nutrition. Sort of like the nice packaging from Atari on the worst game of all time: E.T. Extraterrestrial.
V
And would Atari have done better if it had a performance history of crashing for 80+% of its previous users? Or that it made most of its money selling "fixes" to its users?
D
"What in God's name is the long thesis at $102.88", there I updated it again. If you listen to QTR again, you'd be out 8%+ in a very short period of time. Let alone if you listened to him from the beginning.

102.88 USD +1.46

The market knows what's coming, onward and upward. HLF will beat estimates this quarter and resume growth in key markets
Z
ZZ
17 Apr. 2018
The market knows?
If HLF misses expectations in the upcoming earnings, then will the market "know" to go down?
HLF's lowest price in the past year was $58.91. The market must not have known much at that time.
D
>> HLF's lowest price in the past year was $58.91.

Yes, there was an irrational sell off and some profit taking. But they will not miss earnings and they will start to move positive this quarter. But usually you see this type of run up activity prior to HLF beating estimates.
D
I would imagine the shorts that wanted to prove they were "more to the end of the earth" as Bill are exiting now. Regulatory plays are slow as anything and that's even if they amount to anything. Being short HLF in an up market like this is wasting your money and the future value of that money. Look for the shorts to really shake out after the earnings beat.
D
Ah, thank you SA for the mute function. Now I have two SJW muted that have nothing of value around stock trading to offer. Fortunately this is a stock board, so you can x-out all the chatter of the people who clearly have no clue on stocks or markets. Two down, who knows how many more to go. $101+...earnings will be better than estimates and onward and upward.
V
Sorry.....did we hit a nerve?
U
Davey, no one cares who you have on mute.
D
You seem too. But gotta love the function to weed out the noise.
V
The internet wasn't around in PT Barnum's day.
Z
ZZ
16 Apr. 2018
You give the masses too much credit for intelligence. For example, look who is President of USA and why?
V
I don't think the Russians care to help Icahn sell shakes.
U
Then you know even less about Russians than you do about the stock market.
Losmias profile picture
Herbal life's long theist is, People Are Fat.
Jeffjacobjames profile picture
40% of Americans are obese! Result is much higher healthcare costs for everyone as health insurance rates increase.
V
Americans are also discovering that salvation doesn't come from a powdered shake mix and that there are no shortcuts to being healthy.
Z
ZZ
15 Apr. 2018
I hope you are correct, but the obesity rates is still climbing:
http://bit.ly/2HCPQku
Remember what PT Barnum said.
Z
ZZ
12 Apr. 2018
I've been looking online at some reviews of HLF protein shakes. I try to concentrate on ones from reputiable sites who seem unbiased in what they review. There's so many I won't post links but I will summarize that overall they were more negative than I had anticipated. This included quite a bit of adverse side-effects for many users. The ingrediants weren't outstanding compared to other brands.

Another area I looked at was user reviews, from 2 sites which claimed the posters were verified as genuine users. Amazon is a favorite of mine for researching products. Considering these were people who had bought the shakes for personal consumption, 62% gave it 5*, the highest rating. The comments there were typically that they had been using what they bought for a few days and were happy to be losing weight.
The 1* ratings were filled with complaints about side effects, and curiously about receiving packaging that was expired or with the UPC and labels scratched off.

On another site that was not hosting comments from direct buyers there were lots of complaints about the pushy distributors, high prices, bad taste, and basements of product they couldn't sell. One site ranked their top 10 shake products and HLF was not on the list.

My conclusions are that if it's all about competing in the protein shake arena, HLF is not as attractive as I imagined, with lots of competition. Their strength seems to be their size, presentation, and the coaching/handholding of desperate obese people to lose weight.
D
"What on earth is the value case of HLF at $101" changed the title for you QTR.
V
As fundamentals head in one direction, while stock value goes in another, the mother of all corrections is soon at hand.
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