Internet Capital Group Q4 2005 Earnings Conference Call Transcript (ICGE)

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Internet Capital Group (ICGE)

Q4 2005 Earnings Conference Call

February 16th 2006, 10:00 AM.


Karen Greene, Vice President, Investor Relations

Walter W. Buckley, Chairman, Chief Executive Officer, President

Anthony Dolanski, Chief Financial Officer, Principal Accounting Officer


John Powell, Ryan, Beck & Co.

John Tinker, Think Equity Partners

Brad Mook, Boenning & Scattergood

Jeff Jacobi, Trivium Capital


Good evening ladies and gentlemen and thank you for holding. Welcome to the Internet Capital Group Fourth Quarter and Year-End 2005 Results Conference Call. At this time all participants are in a listen-only mode. A brief question and answer session will follow the formal presentation. Operator Instructions. As a reminder this conference is being recorded.

It is now my pleasure to introduce your host Ms. Karen Greene, Vice President of Investor Relations. Thank you Ms. Greene, you may begin.

Karen Greene, Vice President, Investor Relations

Thank you, good morning. This is Karen Greene with Investor Relations and I want to welcome you to Internet Capital Group’s Fourth Quarter and Year-End Conference Call. I would like to remind everyone that we are going to use presentation slides to the Company prepared remarks today. These slides can be found on our website at Go to the “Investor Information” tab and you will see an icon for our fourth quarter conference call, the slides can be accessed through that icon. For those of you without immediate access to our website, the conference call and presentations slides will remain on our website and be available for future reference.

On the call this morning we will be discussing certain non-GAAP financial measures, for additional information on these non-GAAP financial measures including a reconciliation of these measures to the most comparable GAAP measures, please refer to the press release we put out this morning including the attachments to this press release. The press release is also available on our website which again is To access the press release on our website, go to the “ICG press release” tab and select the February 16th press release. The attachment for the release can be accessed by clicking on the PDF file contained within the release itself.

A few housekeeping issues today, on the call we will be discussing our Core Company results. The make up of our consolidated company is changed in the fourth quarter of 2005. We are now consolidating the U.S. operations of ICG Commerce, StarCite and Investor Force.

Due to the recent sale of ICG Commerce’s German subsidiary, ICG Commerce’s European operations are reflected in our financial statements as a discontinued operations for all periods presented. Additionally CommerceQuest merged into Metastorm in the fourth quarter of 2005, and we do not consolidate the financial statements as a combined company.

The fourth quarter of 2004 includes the U.S. operations of ICG Commerce and CommerceQuest. Consequently revenues and expenses included in the consolidated statements are not directly comparable.

In addition, GoIndustry is now a public company listed on the AIM Exchange, and will be reporting its results separately. We also acquired a 39% ownership stake in WhiteFence. Accordingly our eight private core companies now consist of CreditTrade, Freeborders, ICG Commerce, Investor Force, Marketron, MetaStorm, StarCite and WhiteFence. Our ownership positions average 49%. We had recast the private Core Company quarterly operating results for all quarters of 2004 and 2005 to reflect these companies on a comparable basis. Before we begin I would like to briefly review our Safe Harbor language.

The statements contained in our press release and those that we make in the conference call, as well as the accompanying slide presentations that are not historical facts, are forward-looking statements that involve certain risks and uncertainties including, but not limited to, risks associated with the uncertainty of future performance of our partner companies, acquisitions or dispositions of interests in partner companies, the effect of economic conditions generally, capital spending by customers, development of the e-commerce and information technology markets, and other uncertainties detailed in the Company's filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. These and other factors may cause actual results to differ materially from those projected.

And now, let me turn the call over to Walter Buckley, ICG’s Chairman and CEO.

Walter W. Buckley, Chairman, Chief Executive Officer, President

Thank you Karen, and welcome, and thank you for joining us this morning. I will begin by providing you an overview of ICG and its partner companies for 2005, including fourth quarter highlights. Anthony Dolanski, our Chief Financial Officer will follow with ICG’s financial results and our view of partner company performance for the fourth quarter and year-end.

In short, 2005 was an excellent year for ICG. We achieved in some cases exceeded the goals we set forth throughout at the beginning of the year. We had a number of important milestones and accomplishments in 2005, helping to build value for our stockholders. This in turn listed on slides 4 and 5, our sides and broad Core clients of that growth.

Our Core partner companies had aggregate revenue growth of 15% in the fourth quarter of 2005 versus 2004, and achieved aggregate annual revenue growth of 23%. Excluding Metastorm, which was very focused on integrating with CommerceQuest during the quarter, our remaining seven core companies had aggregate revenue growth of 27% for the quarter versus Q4 2004.

Aggregate EBITDA of our Core companies improved by 45% in 2005 over 2004. And we captured a $161 million of values through monetization, primarily related to the sale of LinkShare and the sale of a portion of our Blackboard security.

We ended the year with a strong balance sheet after repurchasing $23 million face amount of debt and making a new acquisition. We listed GoIndustry’s shares on the AIM Exchange and acquired a 39% interest in WhiteFence, We enhanced value of CommerceQuest through a merger with Metastorm, and finally we increased our ownership stakes in both StarCite and Investor Force, and now has consolidated interest in both companies.

And stepping back for a moment, I would like to make several observations on the on-demand software market. ICG’s mission is to be a leader in the on-demand internet software market by owning significant space in a handful of leading on-demand software companies. We have deep expertise in this space and have studied it closely, having worked with these companies in business models for over 10 years. We are seeing an accelerating transformation occurring across corporate America to outsource non-strategic functions often using web-enabled or on-demand application producer. These observations are not unique in fact are drawing increasing attention from technologist, economist and most significant to us. Key level objective is looking for innovated solutions to realize cost savings and enhance productivity.

As consumers, many of us have already adopted the internet as a standard for communicating, gathering information and transacting business. Now businesses are beginning to follow that trend, as the opportunity to aggregate demand and automate complex workflow processes. Just to name a few, are made available through these on-demand software application. Company such as WhiteFence, StarCite, ICG Commerce and Investor Force are great examples of on-demand software providers that enable enterprises to realize meaningful and sustainable ROI.

We think in 2006, we will see a continuation of this trend and we are optimistic about the market and opportunity our companies have going into this year. In tandem with the corporate America is going out to try for these types of solutions, ICG made strong progress in building value in 2005.

Turning to our goals as outlined on slide 6. Our Core companies exceeded our revenue target growth for the year, aggregating the revenue of 23%. We believe this group of companies has real momentum as evidenced by their healthy backlog and a well solution for continued growth throughout 2006.

Goal 2, was to continue on the path of the profitability on making strategic investments in products and services. The 8 Core companies reduced aggregate EBITDA loss by 46%, and a loss of 21.3 million in 2004 to a loss of 11.6 million in 2005. As we continue to sell some of our assets and our remaining companies grow, we believe we’ll continue to see strong EBITDA improvement over the next 12 months.

Our third goal for 2005 was on controlling position in our internet software and service companies. We made excellent progress against this goal in 2005, consolidating both Investor Force and StarCite. In tandem with the goal of owning controlling space, our fourth goal for 2005 was to sell companies that do not fit our strategy.

During the fourth quarter we sold our interest in Co-nect; the Company in the other holdings category and monetize our holdings in Verticalnet and Arbinet. In additiontion as I discussed previously GoIndustry went public on the AIM, and we successfully merged CommerceQuest into Metastorm. Finally we also sold LinkShare. The Company frankly was a great strategic fit but we thought it was a right opportunity to capture value.

Finally our last goal is to identify potential acquisitions. In early December we announced our acquisition of 39% interest in WhiteFence. We are excited about the potential of this company has in front of it; I’ll provide some more color on their progress in just a few minutes. Unlike most of our partner companies, we purchased deferred securities from WhiteFence, which enhances our economic opportunity beyond our percentage ownership.

We are spending a significant amount of time evaluating potential acquisition against that criteria which are listed on slide 7. We are targeting on-demand internet software companies and believe that their margins, predictability of revenues, solid growth rate and defensibility of these business models made some very attractive acquisition candidate.

The level of activity has increased significantly over the past year and we expect to make additional acquisitions in 2006. With that said, this process takes time and we are being very deliberate, but I also like to note that a number of our partner companies are involved in potential M&A activity and we are working very closely with each of them to help evaluate their options. These acquisitions should help strengthen their market position as well provide an avenue for ICG to increase its ownership level.

Now to give you a sense of what our partner companies have accomplished in the past year, let me share some highlights of our 8 Core companies, which you will find on slide 8 to 11.

Turning to slide 8, I’ll start with CreditTrade. CreditTrade is a leading provider of transaction, data information services for credit market. We saw very strong growth, revenue growth in 2005, capitalizing off of the growth in a credit derivatives market. We expect to see continued strong performance in CreditTrade in 2006. As this market continue to grow and they solidify their market leadership position.

Freeborders, our leading provider of technology and outsourcing solutions in China find 19 new customers in 2005, including Owens-Ilinois, Sara Lee, Onyx, TradeCard and BenefitNation. The Company made significant headway overseas, increasing capacity at its Shenzhen, China technology center by over 100% to more than 700 software engineers. This progress helped Freeborders secure $20 million financing led by FT Ventures. And more recently Freeborders announced its acquisition of ITK Solutions, an IT management consulting firm specializing in software project delivery for financial services companies. This acquisition brings the top tier clients with the global banks, investment banks and hedge fund to Freeborders.

Procurement services provider ICG Commerce continue to make solid progress turning four major customers in the fourth quarter. In addition, ICG Commerce continue to expand its relationships with Avaya, Greif and Cooper Cameron. Notably the Company recently announced that it had been engaged by Goodyear to lead a strategic procurement initiative in North America. Its customer activities translating into real results, it’s contracted year-end backlog increasing by more than 100% to $60 million. Industry influencers were also continue to point to the progress being made at ICG Commerce. The Company’s work was recognized for the 4th consecutive year in Forbes' "Best of the Web" ranking of business-to-business Company. We believe that this momentum and a strong sales pipeline in entering 2006, positions them well for continued market leadership.

Investor Force, the leading provider of business solutions to institutional investment management industry singed 8 significant contracts over the course of 2005. And currently has contracted backlog of more than $10 million. Company’s all sort of management team during the second half of 2005, adding several top-level executives in key areas including sales, technology and operations. This momentum coming out of 2005, the emphasis on 2006 will be go live with current customers driving a real revenue and earnings growth.

Provider of broadcast management solution for radio, TV and cable industries,
Marketron made good progress in 2005 signing several key new customers and renewing a number of important exciting customers including News-Press & Gazette, Cox Radio, Entercom, Entravision, and Devonshire Associates. Contracted backlog going into 2006 was $49 million up nicely from the prior year.

At the year-end the Company reduced its technology expenses, as some of its technology initiatives came to completion. And as a result the Company expected to see accelerated EBITDA growth in 2006.

During the fourth quarter MetaStorm, a leading provider of business process management software established itself as a clear leader in the BPM market with the merger of ICG partner company, CommerceQuest. By year-end the two companies were successfully integrated in moving forward. MetaStorm added more than 100 new costumers in 2005 including KPMG, HomeBuy and Ernst and Young.

The Company continue that progress with a recent announcement of a partnership with Thomson Financial, a leading financial services provider deliver a complete end-to to-end research platform for the financial services industry.

StarCite, a provider of on-demand global meeting solutions signed several new corporate customers during the fourth quarter including Proctor & Gamble, Limited Brands and The Timken Company. In addition, the Company expanded contracts with existing customers such as American Cancer Society, Amgen, Bristol Myers Squibb, Chubb and The Gap.

Internationally, StarCite expanded its global contracts with Cisco Systems and Motorola, and signed a new contract with John Deere Europe. The Company continue to enhance supplier relationships with Carlson Hotels Worldwide and the Hilton Group during the quarter as well.

The Company entered 2006 with a strong pipeline seeing an 18% increase in contracted year-end backlog to $18 million.

And finally, during the fourth quarter ICG acquired a 39% stake in WhiteFence, which is a leading web services provider used by household consumers to compare and purchase essential home service such as electricity, natural gas, telephone, cable and satellite TV and high speed internet just to name a few.

2005 revenue for WhiteFence was up 61% over 2004 and 4 million shoppers utilized the WhiteFence platform during the year representing over 100% growth in 2004. Of that group over 600,000 of them ordered services offered on the platform up from over 380,000 in the prior year.

As I previously mentioned, our mission simply stated it to be a leader in the on-demand software space by earning position in a handful of successful internet software and services company. We will continue to take the steps to get us closer to achieving this mission. As our actions in 2005 demonstrated, ICG is transitioning into a focus group privately held on-demand internet software companies that we believe employed for a considerable growth. And ICG represents a highly rate for diversified vehicle to participate in this new emerging market.

In summary, we were satisfied by the growth of our partner companies and pleased with the progress that we made at ICG in 2005. We believe 2006 will be exciting year for our company and for ICG. We look forward to reporting to you next quarter and with that I’ll turn it over to Tony.

Anthony Dolanski, Chief Financial Officer, Principal Accounting Officer

Thanks Buck and good morning. As Karen indicated the makeup of our consolidated company have changed in the fourth quarter. We’re now consolidating the U.S. operations of ICG Commerce, StarCite and Investor Force. The German subsidiary of ICG Commerce has been sold for nominal consideration and is reflected in our financial statement as a discontinued operation. Also CommerceQuest merged into Metastorm which is now treated as an equity company in Q4. Last year’s fourth quarter includes the U.S. operations of ICG Commerce and CommerceQuest. Consequently the revenues and expenses included in the consolidated statements are not directly comparable. Later in my presentation I’ll provide information about the operations of our Core private company that is on an apples-to-apples basis.

I’ll begin with our fourth quarter consolidated income statement as prepared under Generally Accepted Accounting Principles. Turning to slide 14, in the fourth quarter 2005 revenues of our 3 consolidated companies were 12.8 million compared with 12.1 million last year. For the full-year we recorded consolidated revenues of 50.6 million compared to 41.9 million for 2004. ICG reported a consolidated net loss of 12.7 million or $0.34 per share for the fourth quarter of 2005 as compared with a net loss of 2.6 million or $0.07 per share for the fourth quarter of 2004.

Our results for the quarter include 7.2 million in net aftertax charges and stock-based compensation compared to 3.1 million in net gains and stock-based compensation in the prior year. The detail of these items are also set forth on slide 14; and primarily consist of gains and losses relating to asset sales, repurchases of convertible notes, goodwill charges, discontinued operations, income taxes and stock-based compensation.

Moving to slide 15, ICG reported consolidated net income of $72.5 million or $1.73 per diluted share for the 2005 year as compared with a net loss of $135.3 million or $3.79 per share for the 2004 year. Our results for 2005 include $101.2 million in net aftertax gain and stock-based compensation compared to $104.9 million in net charges and stock-based compensation in the prior year. The details of these items are set forth also on slide 15 and primarily consist of the gain on the LinkShare sale in 2005 and the loss on convertible notes in 2004.

Let me next review our Core company results. As previously mentioned ICG Commerce sold it’s German subsidiary and CommerceQuest was merged into Metastorm. In addition GoIndustry listed its shares on the AIM Exchange and is now a public company and will be reporting its separate results. We also acquired a 39% ownership stake in WhiteFence. Thus our 8 private Core companies now include CreditTrade, Freeborders, ICG Commerce, Investor Force, Marketron, Metastorm, StarCite and WhiteFence. Our ownership positions average 49%. We have recast the quarterly operating results for all quarters of 2004 and 2005 to reflect these companies on a comparable basis.

As showed on slide 16, aggregate revenue growth of our 8 Core companies – aggregate revenue of our 8 Core companies was 46.9 million during the fourth quarter of 2005 and increase to 16% from last year. There were a number of companies that contributed significantly to this increase. CreditTrade had another good quarter benefiting from the growth in the credit derivatives market.

ICG Commerce and StarCite continue to stake out leadership position in their respective markets and Freeborders continues to build out its software development operations in China. Excluding the results of CommerceQuest Metastorm Q4 2005 for the other 7 companies was up 27% over Q4 of 2004.

Our Core Companies reported an aggregate 4.1 million negative EBITDA loss during the quarter versus negative EBITDA of 3.4 million last year. Going to the bottom-line the aggregate net loss for the 8 Core companies was 6.8 million, up from 5.9 million last year. The current quarter loss for the Core companies was negatively affected by $600,000 relating to a settlement of a lawsuit compared to net charges of approximately 700,000 in the 2004 period.

Also earnings in 2005 affected by increased expense level of CreditTrade in order to expand its electronic trading platform. Slide 17 shows the revenue trends at our 8 Core companies over the past eight quarters. The Q4 of 2005 decline from Q3 of 2005 relates principally to the exceptional performance by CreditTrade in earlier quarters. For the full-year, these 8 companies reported aggregate revenue of 189.7 million, up 23% from a 154.6 million and reduced their aggregate EBITDA loss to a 11.6 million from 21.3 million, a 45% improvement.

I’ll next comment on our liquidity situation at December 31, 2005 which is shown on slide 18. At the parent company level we had cash of 129.6 million and the value of our Blackboard 1holdings was 63.4 million totaling 193 million. At the end of the quarter we had convertible debt outstanding of 37 million, definitely our 8 Core companies had cash balances totaling 62.2 million and debt of 11.1 million.

Slide 19 presents the movements of cash at the parent company level during the fourth quarter. We funded 14.4 million for partner companies primarily related to the acquisition of a 39% ownership interest in WhiteFence and a funding to Metastorm. We repurchased $23 million principal amount of our 5% convertible notes to April 2009 or a 28.5 million. We made an estimated federal tax payment of 26.9 million. We see 7.7 million in proceeds relating to asset sales and had operating and other cash cost of 2.1 million. We thus ended the quarter with 129.6 million of cash in the parent company.

Subsequent to year-end, we had a number of events that impacted our total liquidity position. Specifically we received a partial refund of our estimated federal income tax payment. Low industry shares began trading on the AIM Exchange and completed its initial public offering. Taking all of these events into account, our current cash included value of marketable securities amounts to 231.1 million as of February 15, 2006; and we have 14 million in Escrow from the LinkShare sales, which we expect to recover sometime during 2006.

Let me now provide a high level valuation analysis of this Company as of February 15, 2006 on slide 20. Using yesterday’s closing price of $9.49 our market cap after considering the possible conversations of our convertible notes is 412 million. Our cash marketable securities and Escrows as of February 15, 2006 totaled 245 million. Thus the implied value of our share of our 8 Core companies which grew 23% in 2005 is 167 million, which represents a multiple on our 2005 proportional revenue of 1.8 times. Additionally these companies had net cash balances that aggregated 51.1 million.

Looking forward to 2006, as shown on slide 21 we expect that our current Core group of companies will grow revenues at least 20% for the year. Our growth however will not necessarily be achieved on a straight line basis. We should expect some quarterly variability. We also expect improvements at the Core company EBITDA results while supporting growth and developing our technology platform.

Our intent regarding the deployment of capital in 2006 is as follows. To increase ownerships in our existing partner companies, to facilitate M&A activities at our Core companies, to acquire interest in new on-demand internet software companies and finally to continue to evaluate opportunities for debt repurchases. On the monetization front in 2006, we look to strategically monetize assets over the course of the year.

In summary we are very pleased with our overall quarterly and annual performance. And we are meeting our goals. With that I will turn it back to Buck.

Walter Buckley, Chairman, Chief Executive Officer, Pres of ICG Commerce Holdings Inc.,

Thanks Tony, and now we would like to open it up for Q&A.

Question-and-Answer Session


Ladies and gentlemen at this time we will be conducting a question and answer session. Operator Instruction. Our first question is coming from John Powell of Ryan Beck. Please proceed with your question.

Q - John Powell

Hi gentlemen. Your 2006 revenue growth target is 20% and I understand that except for one of your Core companies, aggregate revenues last year would have been up 28% but you came in actually a 50%. Can you comment on Core company that brought that aggregate growth rate down to 15%?

A – Anthony Dolanski

Yes, just a frame of question from an annual perspective the 8 Core companies grew 23% year-over-year which we, we thought was healthy growth and our goals as outlined in the beginning of 2005 was somewhere between 15% and 20%. So, I think we certainly did a good job from that prospective. In terms of Q4, regarding Metastorm and that’s the one company we singled out, three factors, one, Metastorm is a license software business and had acquired CommerceQuest really at the beginning of the quarter and spent a good deal of their energy, common energy in Q4 integrating CommerceQuest into the Metastorm platform. And that was an important piece; and secondly CommerceQuest had a very large sale to the government in Q4 of 2004 which was a one-time sale plus of $2 million. But when you take Metastorm out and frankly Metastorm’s Core business is doing very well. The 7 Core companies which I think is more representative of the ICG makeup grew 27% quarter-over-quarter which I think a very solid growth. And I think they entered 2006 with healthy backlog and in good position.

Q - John Powell

So, if you are reasonably comfortable obviously we are hitting that goal of 20% for ’06?

A – Anthony Dolanski

Yes, I mean there will be volatility in it, actually with CreditTrade, but I think overall year-over-year, yes.

Q - John Powell

Great, good luck.

A – Anthony Dolanski

Thank you.


Our next question is coming from John Tinker of Think Equity Partners. Please proceed with your question.

Q - John Tinker

Good morning, its quick question. The backlog on ICG Commerce 60 million, how does that actually translate into revenue? And secondly, is another sort of broad question, as you look at more acquisitions, is it going to be possible that even if you do private one there will be some greater transparency in the numbers?

A - Walter W. Buckley

I’ll answer the first one first John, what we are trying to do with new acquisition is to provide greater transparency. And with WhiteFence we listed the revenues when we made the acquisition from a roughly, standpoint of roughly $9 million and we said that they grew over 60% year-over-year. And obviously we’ll tend to see that going forward, it’s actually can’t, knowing that they are private companies, now I’ll turn it over to Tony further.

A – Anthony Dolanski

Yeah, on the backlog, as that number represents the current unrecognized contracted revenue that will be earned in 2006 and beyond. And for all four companies the backlog with a little over 130 million and about 40% of that overall number will turn into revenue in 2006. At ICG Commerce their contracts generally, run three, four years some of the other companies have a little bit longer and little bit shorter. So of that 60 million you will see, 30 some percent of that well forward in 2006.

Q - John Tinker



Our next question is coming from Brad Mook of Boenning & Scattergood. Please proceed with your question.

Q - Brad Mook

Thanks. Hi guys.

A – Anthony Dolanski

Hi Brad.

Q - Brad Mook

You talked a bunch on the call about the progress that you are making, I am curious about the other side of the coin where you are seeing any frustration or hurdles headwinds with executing your strategy?

A – Anthony Dolanski

I think, just I think the overall things never happened as quickly as you would like, I think we would like to assume on the investor core sides and customers up in running by year-end, but as we know technology development is always tough to predict, but I think overall we are satisfied what we are seeing across the board and I think that gives increasing predictability and consistency is really the driving thing in 2006.

Q - Brad Mook

Okay, and in terms of filling up your pipeline of investment opportunity, is there a lot out there?

A – Anthony Dolanski

You know, what we saw, if you think about beginning of 2005 in terms of where we are today we are seeing a significant pick up of, in terms of the pipeline, in terms of looking at new opportunities and then really looking at a number of quad opportunities as we speak, I think that’s indicative of the overall technology environment, we are seeing it in startup phase through to the mid stage where we are focused from these sort of, I mean 10 to $30 million range. And I think it’s healthy right now; probably it’s healthy as we’ve seen them in number of years.


Did that answer your question, sir? Our next question is coming from Jeff Jacobi of Trivium Capital. Please proceed with your question.

Q – Jeff Jacobi

Yeah hi, I was hoping to say, I appreciate that you went through with the 8 Core companies values were and a price to sales of 1.8, I was wondering if you could give us some sense from an outside prospective how we should look at how you look at with the comparable price to sales ratios are for those companies, is there an aggregate number you use obviously recognize, and there is a mix of companies within it.

A – Anthony Dolanski

Yeah, actually go through the profits on a company-by-company basis to make estimates of valuation, but I would say that the range of values is fairly wide.

Q – Jeff Jacobi


A – Anthony Dolanski

Couple of, we do look at some public comps, one of the companies that we have a big interest in is Backboard and, overtime the way we use to analyze Blackboard at, in a level of continue to grow. And I think as of the date of Blackboard’s earnings release there was probably a 7 times, 12 in 12 months revenue, a fairly large evaluation. And, so each company has a different sort of a number associated with, but we do look at public comp, when we are in the market for either buying or selling, we have a very good feel as to what the price tag is going to be. So, I think we have good insight into it, but the numbers range pretty widely, company-by-company and for anyone company they could also range considerably.

Q – Jeff Jacobi

And is there a sense though that the low end of that range, I mean generally software companies that are profitable or near profitable trade a better than two time sales.

A – Anthony Dolanski

Yeah I mean, I think once you sort of break through the profitably you have two, it’s really the base and it goes up from there.

Q – Jeff Jacobi

Got it. Okay thank you.


We show no further questions in the queue at this time, I would like to turn the floor back over to our speakers.

Karen Greene, Vice President, Investor Relations

We thank you for joining us for this quarterly call and we look forward to presenting Q1 results in May. Thank you.

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